The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Comparing apples and oranges here. I won't repeat myself. Provide a comparable instance to the 59-year spike observed globally for an ethnic group, not within a specific country's border. Alternatively, offer a sound and logical explanation.

What does this criterion even mean? The vast majority of Germans still lived in Germany so it's completely valid to compare them to the Jewish population, unless you want to include everyone with German ancestry outside of its borders, which would be an even faster population growth rate.

Every country in the developed world had an acceleration in population growth rates during this period due to the advances in medicine and germ theory that led to huge decreases in child mortality and longer life expectancy for those who survived childhood. Between 1880 and 1900, the mortality rate from infectious diseases in Paris (for example) decreased as follows:

Typhoid: -83%
Smallpox: -100%
Diphtheria: -72%
Meningitis: -69%

A mere 52.38% uptick from the global average of 1.05%, considering a demographic group that historically had one of the lowest growth rates before 1880 and after 1939. Nothing to see here.

The global average is meaningless when you consider factors like the famines in India, the fifth and sixth cholera pandemics, and Qing China's decay and growing impoverishment leading to the Warlord Era and Japanese invasions.

 

[Chugger]

@Chugger You completely ignored the Meiji Restoration.
Present the spike in the graph and illustrate how, following the spike, growth reverts to the trends observed prior to the spike.

For both of you, the Industrial Revolution occurred in Germany between 1830 and 1875. In contrast, the Meiji Restoration took place in Japan from 1868 to 1912, and it can be cited as a factor in discussing population growth in Japan in the time frame we are discussing. However, the focus of our discussion is not on the Jewish diaspora in Japan.

The Meiji Restoration marked a period of rapid westernization in Japan durr

Japan was leaking population during this period, 1880 - 1940, so the actual population growth rate was more than double (6 million Japanese were repatriated after the fall of the empire). Now, population growth is negative.

You're embarrassing yourself with this line of argumentation, digging the hole deeper with every post. But by all means continue.

 

[SirCliveSinclairdabbing]

You are beyond lazy

I am efficient and got my answer. The 2 are often confused.

 

[The Tall Man]

The global average is meaningless

Great point let's go with the global Jewish average of 0.3%. So "just 1.6%" is a tiny increase of only 433%. Nothing to see here.

The worldwide Jewish population is 13.3 million Jews. Jewish population growth worldwide is close to zero percent. From 2000 to 2001 it rose 0.3%

Between 1880 and 1900, the mortality rate from infectious diseases in Paris (for example) decreased as follows:

Typhoid: -83%
Smallpox: -100%
Diphtheria: -72%
Meningitis: -69%

Impressive! It appears you may have overlooked specifying the number of cases. If the count is minimal, it might not be a pertinent factor.

You're embarrassing yourself with this line of argumentation, digging the hole deeper with every post. But by all means continue.

Your eloquent analysis of national trends, specifically those bereft of the requisite acumen in unraveling an anomaly within an ethnic group not discernible elsewhere, has left me intellectually humbled. Unfortunately, I find myself incapacitated in formulating a coherent counterargument, and I must acknowledge that the brilliance of your intellect renders the prospect of debating against you nearly insurmountable.

You have emerged victorious, asserting your supremacy in discussions. Wear your metaphorical crown with well-earned pride.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Great point let's go with the global Jewish average of 0.3%. So an increase of 433%

0.3% from 2000-2001. Come on now, actually read the things your trying to cite instead of manipulating them to support your nonsense.

You could argue the Baby Boom in the US never happened by that "reasoning".

Impressive! It appears you may have overlooked specifying the number of cases. If the count is minimal, it might not be a pertinent factor.

It's per 100,000 people and there is a lot more data I didn't quote.

https://www.sociostudies.org/almanac/articles/the_demographic_transition/

 

[CowPox]

Why can't we dig into the mass graves and remove the shards of bone and oceans of teeth extract dna from them, match them to living family members and prove the mass gassings actually happened?

 

[The Tall Man]

actually read the things your trying to cite instead of manipulating them to support your nonsense.

I like the projection. https://www.sociostudies.org/almanac/articles/the_demographic_transition/

Should you be dissatisfied with the provided figures, please present the more accurate data at your disposal demonstrating that a 1.6% growth is not entirely anomalous.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

I like the projection. https://www.sociostudies.org/almanac/articles/the_demographic_transition/

Should you be dissatisfied with the provided figures, please present the more accurate data at your disposal demonstrating that a 1.6% growth is not entirely anomalous.

They're not projections, just facts.

You keep ignoring hard data about population trends because you're obviously wrong and keep making excuses and redefining criteria to fit what you want to believe. Maybe stop hating the magical Joos for your personal failures and look at your own shortcomings instead.

 

[No Batty Boys in Jamaica]

Why can't we dig into the mass graves and remove the shards of bone and oceans of teeth extract dna from them, match them to living family members and prove the mass gassings actually happened?

They did it with the Khmer Rouge. Idk why they can’t do it with the Shoah. Not all Jews were cremated.

 

[Gog & Magog]

In Germany during that period, people were undergoing compulsory relocation, and they did not have the option to refuse.

I suppose that is one way of putting it.
Edit: Are you saying the state was planning on forcing it's citizens out of their own homes and onto lands far away? Why would the state do that? Isn't that immoral?

 

[Chugger]

Your eloquent analysis of national trends, specifically those bereft of the requisite acumen in unraveling an anomaly within an ethnic group not discernible elsewhere, has left me intellectually humbled. Unfortunately, I find myself incapacitated in formulating a coherent counterargument, and I must acknowledge that the brilliance of your intellect renders the prospect of debating against you nearly insurmountable.

What's your source for Jewish population from 1500 to 1880?

 

[The Tall Man]

What's your source for Jewish population from 1500 to 1880?

To be fair the place is probably a bias source, called the Jewish virtual library.

You keep ignoring hard data

You are tasked with providing a plausible explanation for the notably anomalous growth observed from 1880 to 1939. Why did the growth peak specifically in this short period leading up to the holocaust? Why did it exhibit a considerably lower trajectory both before and after that 59-year span?

Your challenge is to present an explanation more reasonable than the straightforward suggestion that the numbers have been manipulated.

Furthermore, OlderSocks must substantiate his claim:

For National Socialists, Jews were a parasitic force in the world, and anything but total extermination would make them able to regroup and start conspiracies to keep da aryan man down.

I am not requesting highly precise data or an exhaustive understanding of every detail from any of you. I am also not seeking an exact analogous graph.
All I am asking for is a reasonable explanation. It seems to be an overly challenging task for you.

Isn't that immoral?

I hold the belief that individuals should possess the right to freely associate, and no one should have the authority to force them into association against their will.

Taking action to remove an antagonistic guest from your home is morally justifiable.

If you perceive the Jews as entirely blameless, then deportation might be considered impolite. However, if they are adequately compensated for any material loss, it does not carry negative moral implications.

On the other hand, if you believe the Jews behaved poorly, expelling them, even without compensation, is morally acceptable.

 

[Gog & Magog]

Taking action to remove an antagonistic guest from your home is morally justifiable.

Citizens are not guests. Revoking the rights of whole classes of peoples is terrible. What if this was done to me or you because we share a last name with an "undesirable" man a hundred miles away? How is this any different than what the Soviets did to their own German-speaking citizens?

 

[Chugger]

To be fair the place is probably a bias source, called the Jewish virtual library.

Where's the source for population numbers before 1880? Please link directly. I couldn't find anything. I assume it will show low population growth rate in the immediately preceding years, and then a sudden jump upwards, indicating an "anomaly".

 

[The Tall Man]

Citizens are not guests. Revoking the rights of whole classes of peoples is terrible. What if this was done to me or you because we share a last name with an "undesirable" man a hundred miles away? How is this any different than what the Soviets did to their own German-speaking citizens?

So you hold the "the Jews didnu nuffin" view?

Germany is designated for the Germans, and Jews never aspired to become Germans. Those who attempted to do so ceased being Jews; despite their citizenship on paper, they are nothing more than guests, particularly according to their own identity.

It's essential to recognize that Jews do not constitute a distinct race; rather, they are a blend of Arab and Greek. Therefore, their identity is primarily shaped by ideology. A significant aspect of this ideology is the belief in being in diaspora, with their true homeland being Israel.

Consequently, any individual identifying as a Jew, who is not entirely deluded about what that means, recognizes Israel as their sole homeland and, at best, considers themselves a guest, or at worst, a potentially disruptive foreign agent.

If a person who identifies as a Jew were to abandon these destructive beliefs, they would cease to be a Jew.

Please link directly.

No, look for it yourself.

The original post in which I generated that graph is nearly a year old. I would need to search for it just like you.

 

[Chugger]

No, look for it yourself.

The original post in which I generated that graph is nearly a year old. I would need to search for it just like you.

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/post-15886541

There's no source here, no numbers, just a link to a denier bud video which is 4 hours long. So your entire argument seems to be contingent on a graph embedded somewhere in a super long video that is almost certainly unsourced as well. The straight lines in the graph indicate a lack of information rather than numerous data points.

It doesn't seem like there are detailed figures for world Jewish population prior to 1880.

The one study I found prior to this showed that Jewish population had more than doubled as well in the 55 years prior to 1880

https://www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/dell/DellaPergola%20Some%20Fundamentals.pdf

So you're bringing no sources to the table, and whatever I've found shows that the growth was continuous.

 

[The Tall Man]

There's no source here, no numbers, just a link to a denier bud video which is 4 hours long.

From 1880 (7.8mil) to 1939 (16.7mil) according to the Jewish virtual library

At this point it is evident that you are intentionally lying.

The straight lines in the graph indicate a lack of information rather than numerous data points.

How can you be such a disingenuous cunt within two sentences?

It doesn't seem like there are detailed figures for world Jewish population prior to 1880.

Similar to what my graph illustrates, the period before the 20th century remains somewhat ambiguous due to less sophisticated census methods. However, data around 1900 should be relatively reliable, as it is closer to modern and more accurate census records. Estimates become more speculative as we go further back.

Noteworthy census years include 1790 and 1880. I'm curious about the seemingly arbitrary dates presented in your table for Europe and the US, but I'm not interested in engaging in a debate over minor details with someone who has shown themselves disingenuous.

The table you discovered adjusts the onset of the spike slightly. It's worth noting, with a touch of humor, that the figure of 6 million is not supported.

The more substantial and accurate data, spanning from 1880 to 1939 and beyond, holds greater significance.

I'm not interested in debating the accuracy of the numbers, as it doesn't alter the situation. Instead, explain the rapid growth that occurred during the spike, a phenomenon not observed before or after.

So you're bringing no sources to the table, and whatever I've found shows that the growth was continuous.

I assume you possess enough intelligence to realize the inaccuracy of what you've written here. Consequently, I must infer that your expression is once again insincere.

 

[Betonhaus]

Just a reminder to keep an eye out for Israeli propagandists who try to paint Jews as the victim so they continue to have carte blanche for warcrimes.

 

[Gog & Magog]

Your interpretation relies on the assumption that Germans are Hollywood Nazi villains. If you approach the quote without presupposing Germans' inherent villainy, you might simply see Hitler expressing concern about the harshness of Siberia, while Goebbels believes they could thrive there.

The dialogue unfolds with Hitler stating, "I don't want to send them to Siberia," countered by Goebbels' optimistic objection, "They would surely come to be a prospering element in Siberia." Hitler then suggests an alternative solution of sending them to Central Africa.

If your assertion is that Germans considered Jews so malevolent that they warranted extermination to prevent perpetual scheming and the suppression of Arian people, the concept of resettlement becomes illogical.

Also why would the Jews of Europe choose to live in Siberia?

In Germany during that period, people were undergoing compulsory relocation, and they did not have the option to refuse.

Are you saying the state was planning on forcing it's citizens out of their own homes and onto lands far away? Why would the state do that? Isn't that immoral?

Taking action to remove an antagonistic guest from your home is morally justifiable.

If you perceive the Jews as entirely blameless, then deportation might be considered impolite. However, if they are adequately compensated for any material loss, it does not carry negative moral implications.

On the other hand, if you believe the Jews behaved poorly, expelling them, even without compensation, is morally acceptable.

Citizens are not guests. Revoking the rights of whole classes of peoples is terrible. What if this was done to me or you because we share a last name with an "undesirable" man a hundred miles away? How is this any different than what the Soviets did to their own German-speaking citizens?

So you hold the "the Jews didnu nuffin" view?

You believe the state can strip men of all their rights, rob them of their livelihoods and all their material possessions and deport them to inhospitable lands for the remainder of their lives on account of something beyond their own control and exclaim all this is actually a good thing. You sound like a commie.

 

[Chugger]

At this point it is evident that you are intentionally lying.

I was talking about previous numbers. I asked you explicitly for numbers prior to 1880. You have nothing here that you can show me correct? Other than the graph you ripped off from denier bud's video, which has no dates, no numbers, nothin