The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

Are there other historic events that are illegal to question in some countries?

I don't think it's illegal to question events anywhere. I don't think anyone has been put in jail or fined for genuinely wondering about the historical facts whether the mainstream story is correct .declarative 'truth' type statements like the ones made above by mrolonzo are a different story

but if this is what you mean, yeah this applies to other events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial#Poland

as you can see here in Poland, Lithuania, Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary denying communist/USSR crimes is against the law. and more broadly in many places denying any genocide is illegal

 

[mrolonzo]

I have not read the "revisionist" response to Himmler's Jews executed document. Therefore I cannot provide it. And anyway you as the "revisionist" should be the one on top of these arguments. I as a believer in the mainstream history should not be making your arguments for you.

So I ask you again, why does Himmler write to Hitler on 26 December 1942 (in the "Jews Executed" document from HC I shared earlier) that Jews being sent to Treblinka - namely the Bialystok Jews - have been killed? Is the document fake or was Himmler lying to Hitler? Can you post a "revisionist" response to this document?

Good lord HS, you literally tried this on codoh only two months ago yet refused to tell me about it;

Why are (Bialystok) Jews Deported to Treblinka listed as "executed" by Himmler?

The CODOH Revisionist Forum: Holocaust Revisionism and WWII Revisionism Discussion / the time for honesty has come.

forum.codoh.com

@mrolonzo

"On what basis do you say there are millions of witnesses to an event called resettlement?"

This is what the most educated revisionists believe. Non-employable Jews were deported en masse from the west and joined the large amount of Jews already there

the term resettlement is used by Himmler and in many other instances https://www.yadvashem.org/docs/himmler-order-for-completion-of-final-solution.html


what does this mean?

why?

so now you have a conspiracy involving millions of people. the USSR fell in 1990 btw, so why keep up the act?


HC blog has a three part article debunking Mattogno's claims

Holocaust Denial & Himmler's Report to Hitler on "Jews executed: 363,211" (Part I)

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

1. Ok do they say there are millions of witnesses? Do they say also there is concomitant paper trials?

2. No mass executions, no torture, no brutality

3. Anti semitism

4. Exactly how many people are we talking about?

 

[History Speaks]

Why should a revisionist have to tell you what it means and how we know its real or not?

Why didn't you bring it to codoh? Or rodoh?

Please answer.

I mean, you do not "have" to do anything, Zo. But if you refuse to respond to this document - which asserts that Jews (of BIalystok) who were sent to Treblinka were killed - you are basically forfeiting.

The document is real. It is signed by Himmler. Its text and font and layout matches the special (large) font characteristic of reports sent directly to Hitler (written on a special typewriter). Many only-for-Hitler documents from the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht have the same structure.

It is funny how deniers simultaneously claim 1) we have no evidence and 2) have to desperately claim (without any substantive basis for doing so) that our evidence is "forged," because it is so damning.

Good lord HS, you literally tried this on codoh only two months ago yet refused to tell me about it;

Why are (Bialystok) Jews Deported to Treblinka listed as "executed" by Himmler?

The CODOH Revisionist Forum: Holocaust Revisionism and WWII Revisionism Discussion / the time for honesty has come.

forum.codoh.com

lol I had literally no recollection of this. You want to repeat their "arguments"? Please go ahead. Why if Treblinka was a transit camp are Jews (from Bialystok) deported there listed as executed?

 

[mrolonzo]

I mean, you do not "have" to do anything, Zo. But if you refuse to respond to this document - which asserts that Jews (of BIalystok) who were sent to Treblinka were killed - you are basically forfeiting.

The document is real. It is signed by Himmler. Its text and font and layout matches the special (large) font characteristic of reports sent directly to Hitler (written on a special typewriter). Many only-for-Hitler documents from the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht have the same structure.

It is funny how deniers simultaneously claim 1) we have no evidence and 2) have to desperately claim (without any substantive basis for doing so) that our evidence is "forged," because it is so damning.


lol I had literally no recollection of this. You want to repeat their "arguments"? Please go ahead. Why if Treblinka was a transit camp are Jews (from Bialystok) deported there listed as executed?

I had no recollection of this....LMAO

 

[History Speaks]

I had no recollection of this....LMAO

I mean all I can tell you is the truth - I did not remember talking about this specific topic on CODOH, two months ago, after having posted and discussed Holocaust issues many hundreds of times in the intervening months. It would be strange for me to try to "hide" this from you, given how easily you could find it on CODOH, and given that I knew you were searching CODOH for posts about this Himmler document.

Anyway - if you think I am "afraid" of discussing this subject, why do we not discuss it now? Do you agree with them that substantailly all of the Jews of Bialystok including the children and old people were "Bandit helpers or bandit suspects." Or do you agree with me that this category is a sham?

Also, even if you assume all the Jews of Bialystok were "bandits," why send them to Treblinka? And why is being sent to Treblinka a form of execution for them?

 

[mrolonzo]

I mean all I can tell you is the truth - I did not remember talking about this specific topic on CODOH, two months ago, after having posted and discussed Holocaust issues many hundreds of times in the intervening months. It would be strange for me to try to "hide" this from you, given how easily you could find it on CODOH, and given that I knew you were searching CODOH for this document.

Anyway - if you think I am "afraid" of discussing this subject, why do we not discuss it now? Do you agree with them that substantailly all of the Jews of Bialystok including the children and old people were "Bandit helpers or bandit suspects." Or do you agree with me that this category is a sham?

Also, even if you assume all the Jews of Bialystok were "bandits," why send them to Treblinka? And why is being sent to Treblinka a form of execution for them?

Okay, you literally asked this exact stuff on codoh. I don't think you're afraid, you could have posted your rebuttals on rodoh and protested your innocence but of course as a peddler, you have wares to sell, codoh doesn't trust you, rodoh isn't a big enough market for your product so you come here hoping to capture some less knowledgeable marks.


So tell me what they told you or would you rather I post screen shots?

 

[History Speaks]

Okay, tell me what they told you or would you rather I post screen shots?

Sure, I have reread the thread and refreshed my recollection about this now.

The Himmler document indicates that hundreds of thousands of Jews in various parts of the occupied Soviet Union have been executed. The list of Jews executed falls under a heading of "bandit helpers and bandit suspects." But strangely, there more than 20 times more Jews listed as having been executed as all other categories of "bandits" combined.

As I told them (and now you) my point concerning the document is not the number of executions or whether the Jews were all "bandits". Rather, I was focused on the fact that the (Bialystok) Jews sent to Treblinka are listed as having been executed. This contradicts the idea of Treblinka as a transit camp, and supports the idea (also expressed in the Stroop report) that being sent to Treblinka was a death sentence.

They responded - again, I had literally forgotten about this until you linked it - by focusing on the "bandit" thing, the Jews of Bialystok were only killed because they were all "bandits."

I had two responses to this. First was that this is absurd (children cannot be bandits). But that even if they believed this, it is irrelevant to my point - being sent to Treblinka was a form of execution.

Soon after that the thread appears to have died or diverted into platitudes about "physical evidence" or insinuations that the document "was faked."

 

[Linako 2.0]

w

 

[Aves]

Mrolonzo,

1. You aren’t understanding our point. Whether it’s 6 million or 1 million, we want to know why there exist no evidence of Jews being deported even though there exists evidence of polish citizens that I’ve linked. Interviews, memoirs, etc. you can give me a number you think it is, but I’m not going to read every article for you.

2. I already linked polish witnesses, and have previously linked witnesses to Japanese internment, the Partition, and of Chechen deportations.

“Nothing much happened”

They were deported so no. Poles talk about deportations, why not Jews.

“Hiding their identities”

You’ve said previously Jews “love to tell everyone they are Jewish” so no. Also, antisemitism does not explain why these Jews continue to be silent up to 2022. Any diaries or memoirs privately written would still exist. It also does not explain the Jews who were not sent east and lived in heavily Jewish neighborhoods or Israel. They would have testimonies like the polish ones I’ve shown.

“Told to be silenced”

You also said Jews are “nearly impossible to silence” so no. Also, we know of Chechen deportations by Soviets and many others, including deportations of about 1 million poles to Siberia by Russians despite their best efforts to silence those.

“They were executed”

Bingo.

 

[mrolonzo]

Mrolonzo,

1. You aren’t understanding our point. Whether it’s 6 million or 1 million, we want to know why there exist no evidence of Jews being deported even though there exists evidence of polish citizens that I’ve linked. Interviews, memoirs, etc

2. I already linked polish witnesses, and have previously linked witnesses to Japanese internment, the Partition, and of Chechen deportations.

“Nothing much happened”

They were deported so no. Poles talk about deportations, why not Jews.

“Hiding their identities”

You’ve said previously Jews “love to tell everyone they are Jewish” so no. Also, antisemitism does not explain why these Jews continue to be silent to this day. It also does not explain the Jews who were not sent east.

“Told to be silenced”

You also said Jews are “nearly impossible to silence” so no. Also, we know of Chechen deportations by Soviets and many others, including deportations of about 1 million poles to Siberia by Russians.

“They were executed”

Bingo.

1. Why should there be? Because you say so? So where is extensive documentation needed for the wanton murder of millions of jews specifically against all the guidelines and rules and plans for resettlement drawn up and how does that make sense when the nazis already document the execution of Jews?

2. Ok, so what? Different situations and different ethnic groups

3. Jews do talk about deportations. Just not the way you want them to.

4. Yes, they certainly do, but would they still do so in the presence of widespread anti semitism seeking revenge for Soviet crimes?

5. Despite their effusive nature, a Soviet state is quite capable of shutting them up

I already told you the execution option is out. Why are you saying Bingo?

Sure, I have reread the thread and refreshed my recollection about this now.

The Himmler document indicates that hundreds of thousands of Jews in various parts of the occupied Soviet Union have been executed. The list of Jews executed falls under a heading of "bandit helpers and bandit suspects." But strangely, there more than 20 times more Jews listed as having been executed as all other categories of "bandits" combined.

As I told them (and now you) my point concerning the document is not the number of executions or whether the Jews were all "bandits". Rather, I was focused on the fact that the (Bialystok) Jews sent to Treblinka are listed as having been executed. This contradicts the idea of Treblinka as a transit camp, and supports the idea (also expressed in the Stroop report) that being sent to Treblinka was a death sentence.

They responded - again, I had literally forgotten about this until you linked it - by focusing on the "bandit" thing, the Jews of Bialystok were only killed because they were all "bandits."

I had two responses to this. First was that this is absurd (children cannot be bandits). But that even if they believed this, it is irrelevant to my point - being sent to Treblinka was a form of execution.

Soon after that the thread appears to have died or diverted into platitudes about "physical evidence" or insinuations that the document "was faked."

See attached

 

[Aves]

1. Why should there be? Because you say so? So where is extensive documentation needed for the wanton murder of millions of jews specifically against all the guidelines and rules and plans for resettlement drawn up and how does that make sense when the nazis already document the execution of Jews?

2. Ok, so what? Different situations and different ethnic groups

3. Jews do talk about deportations. Just not the way you want them to.

4. Yes, they certainly do, but would they still do so in the presence of widespread anti semitism seeking revenge for Soviet crimes?

5. Despite their effusive nature, a Soviet state is quite capable of shutting them up

I already told you the execution option is out. Why are you saying Bingo?

1. The extermination theory is that “resettlement” means “execution”. The Nazis can document the Jews but the Jews would also have witnesses themselves if they were resettled

2. And despite every ethnic group being so different, and despite vary different situations
they all talked of their deportations. Why not Jews?

3. What do you mean?

4. Yes. It’s just private memoirs, plus Jews didn’t all stay in the Soviet Union.

5. They couldn’t shut up the chechens or the poles, how would they shut the Jews, a group which is nearly impossible to silence?

 

[Chugger]

3. Jews do talk about deportations. Just not the way you want them to.

Actually there isn't a single account of a deportation that contradicts the mainstream narrative

4. Yes, they certainly do, but would they still do so in the presence of widespread anti semitism seeking revenge for Soviet crimes?

So the deported Jews from Poland and Western Europe abandoned their religion, took on fake names, learned Russian with believable accents, and there's not a shred of evidence of this?

5. Despite their effusive nature, a Soviet state is quite capable of shutting them up

and the Soviet state folded in 1990. A 12 year old in 1942 would be 60. And hundreds of thousands of Jews left the USSR for Israel in the 60s and 70s

I think we agree there is 0 direct evidence (only conjecture) for your conspiracy theory, but you have a lot of work to do to show that it is in your words--"possible logically"

 

[Lemmingwise]

It is a completely miserable defeat for all "revisionists," and makes a mockery of the rest of their talking points about "physical evidence." They are neo-Atlantians - except they believe Atlantis existed in 1940s Europe - and are simultaneously pretending to require firm physical evidence for all their historical beliefs.

View attachment 3638023

Weren't you complaining about stale memes earlier? Now you're posting the same meme again like 5 pages later.

 

[mrolonzo]

1. The extermination theory is that “resettlement” means “execution”. The Nazis can document the Jews but the Jews would also have witnesses themselves if they were resettled

2. And despite every ethnic group being so different, and despite vary different situations
they all talked of their deportations. Why not Jews?

3. What do you mean?

4. Yes. It’s just private memoirs, plus Jews didn’t all stay in the Soviet Union.

5. They couldn’t shut up the chechens or the poles, how would they shut the Jews, a group which is nearly impossible to silence?

1. Yeeeaahh but that's stupid. Resettlement didn't mean execution.

2. Different situations

3. When jews want to talk about being deported, they do. When they don't, they don't.

4. Exactly how many stayed?

5. I don't see shelf upon shelf of Chechen stories in my local bookstore. And they're definitely all alive rather than in mass graves. Where is the international Chechen council to tell us things? To come to our schools?

I do see strong evidence of jews with stories, political presence and institutional dominance, so therefore we can conclude they were not killed.

Actually there isn't a single account of a deportation that contradicts the mainstream narrative


So the deported Jews from Poland and Western Europe abandoned their religion, took on fake names, learned Russian with believable accents, and there's not a shred of evidence of this?


and the Soviet state folded in 1990. A 12 year old in 1942 would be 60. And hundreds of thousands of Jews left the USSR for Israel in the 60s and 70s

I think we agree there is 0 direct evidence (only conjecture) for your conspiracy theory, but you have a lot of work to do to show that it is in your words--"possible logically"

How accurate are Jewish census figures in the east?

Mine isn't the conspiracy theory. Yours is.

You got btfo'd on codoh for the liar you are so here you are.

 

[Chugger]

How accurate are Jewish census figures in the east?

I have no idea. I don't see how this is relevant to your claim that deported Jews from Poland and Western Europe abandoned their religion, took on fake names, learned Russian with believable accents, to avoid the kind of anti semitism they had endured for centuries (and on a governmental level the USSR was much less anti semitic than the Russian Empire)

Mine isn't the conspiracy theory. Yours is.

a secret plan to fake one of the largest genocides in history necessitates a conspiracy, probably which would include millions of people, making it larger than any known conspiracy by 100x

You got btfo'd on codoh for the liar you are so here you are.

I got banned from Codoh without warning, if you want to talk to the mod there I'd be willing to come back

 

[Aves]

1. Yeeeaahh but that's stupid. Resettlement didn't mean execution.

2. Different situations

3. When jews want to talk about being deported, they do. When they don't, they don't.

4. Exactly how many stayed?

5. I don't see shelf upon shelf of Chechen stories in my local bookstore. And they're definitely all alive rather than in mass graves. Where is the international Chechen council to tell us things? To come to our schools?

I do see strong evidence of jews with stories, political presence and institutional dominance, so therefore we can conclude they were not killed.

1. Go argue with Chugger and HS on that

2. The poles were also deported in WWII, same situation. And they were all forced to move in every scenario so the situations are still very similar.

3. You think Jews, a group which you say consistently claims to be persecuted for sympathy, doesn’t want to talk about their persecution?

If only a million Jews were deported, that means a million Jews all decided to keep completely quiet about it. Are Jews a hivemind?

4. Not relevant + chugger mentioned a bunch of Jews probably left to Israel. Why haven’t they spoken.

5. You didn’t look hard enough. I found chechens talking of their deportation in 1 minute, why not Jews.

 

[History Speaks]

One interesting point in this regard is that we have plenty of evidence for the deportations of some Jews further east into the Soviet Union - in 1940 and 1941.

But we have no evidence that any of the millions of of Jews sent to the Nazi camps in 1942, 1943, and 1944 -- more than 90% of whom had somehow vanished by the end of the war - were resettled.

Why would any rational person believe that the "disappeared" Jews in the camp system were resettled rather than killed? There is evidence of killing but no evidence of resettlements. A rational actor (rather than an emotionally-motivated neo-Nazi) would choose the explanation with the evidence.

 

[History Speaks]

The Soviet deportations of the Kabardins (June 1944) and Balkars (May 1944) are well-documented, even though we are only talking about tens of thousands of people from the Caucacus, people about whom much less is known than European Jews.

Yet Mattogno and Zo would have us believe that millions of European Jews (from Poland, the Netherlands, Germany, etc) somehow vanished without a trace (or any train records, infrastructure, witnesses, etc) "in the Russian East."

The structure and practice of the Stalinist gulags are well-documented, despite their having been operated under strict secrecy at the time.

"Resettlement" is so embarrassing for deniers lol.

 

[mrolonzo]

I have no idea. I don't see how this is relevant to your claim that deported Jews from Poland and Western Europe abandoned their religion, took on fake names, learned Russian with believable accents, to avoid the kind of anti semitism they had endured for centuries (and on a governmental level the USSR was much less anti semitic than the Russian Empire)


a secret plan to fake one of the largest genocides in history necessitates a conspiracy, probably which would include millions of people, making it larger than any known conspiracy by 100x


I got banned from Codoh without warning, if you want to talk to the mod there I'd be willing to come back

1. So you have no idea but want to argue about the veracity of people's identity post world war 2.

2. You posit that the nazis first conspired to genocide but deny that their enemies could create propaganda.

3. You're a proven liar who literally admits to "trolling" codoh. The very reason they are so strict about replying is exactly the games you sought to play. You're a joke. Nevertheless you have opportunities to communicate with revisionists. You are free to go on codoh and make your case. You're free to write essays to codoh that they can respond to.

1. Go argue with Chugger and HS on that

2. The poles were also deported in WWII, same situation. And they were all forced to move in every scenario so the situations are still very similar.

3. You think Jews, a group which you say consistently claims to be persecuted for sympathy, doesn’t want to talk about their persecution?

If only a million Jews were deported, that means a million Jews all decided to keep completely quiet about it. Are Jews a hivemind?

4. Not relevant + chugger mentioned a bunch of Jews probably left to Israel. Why haven’t they spoken.

5. You didn’t look hard enough. I found chechens talking of their deportation in 1 minute, why not Jews.

1. No need. It's just a desperate peddler claim.

2. Do you mean by the Soviets?

3. Not where they have less to gain.

4. Jews have an ethnic interest in hiding. There are significant problems with demographic study in the east. You admit that.

5. Plenty of Israeli Jews speak up, but do we know that the immigration figures to Palestine are accurate? Or to the USA for that matter?

6. Yeeeaahh I didn't look. Because i know we have some accounts. We don't have a multitude. Nor do we have Chechen stories in tv and film. Yet they're not dead?

One interesting point in this regard is that we have plenty of evidence for the deportations of some Jews further east into the Soviet Union - in 1940 and 1941.

But we have no evidence that any of the millions of of Jews sent to the Nazi camps in 1942, 1943, and 1944 -- more than 90% of whom had somehow vanished by the end of the war - were resettled.

Why would any rational person believe that the "disappeared" Jews in the camp system were resettled rather than killed? There is evidence of killing but no evidence of resettlements. A rational actor (rather than an emotionally-motivated neo-Nazi) would choose the explanation with the evidence.

Why ? Because killing Jews just for being Jews is stupid and impossible in the manner claimed and we already all admit there are major problems with the eastern demographic figures.

The Soviet deportations of the Kabardins (June 1944) and Balkars (May 1944) are well-documented, even though we are only talking about tens of thousands of people from the Caucacus, people about whom much less is known than European Jews.

Yet Mattogno and Zo would have us believe that millions of European Jews (from Poland, the Netherlands, Germany, etc) somehow vanished without a trace (or any train records, infrastructure, witnesses, etc) "in the Russian East."

The structure and practice of the Stalinist gulags are well-documented, despite their having been operated under strict secrecy at the time.

"Resettlement" is so embarrassing for deniers lol.

Not really. The Soviets had a different interest in the evacuations that they carried out and can defend these. They also have an interest in painting nazis in the worst light because it means whatever they do can be compared.

 

[History Speaks]

Zo you should really not follow Mattogno and Rudolf and Enoch on this. Drop resettlement (/Jewlantis theory). If you tell normal people you believe that a secret city of millions of Jews existed in 1940s Europe, or Russia, despite zero evidence (no infrastructure, train records, communications, eyewitnesses) for this, they will conclude you are not playing with a full deck.

Deniers like you should just say there were millions of Jews in the camps at the end of the war, and the Allies lied about how many Jews they found in the camps (plus faked the Nazi documents concerning camp roll calls), or that the Allies faked the deportation statistics and most of the Jews were never really deported.

These are also baseless conspiracy theories. And ridiculous to be sure. But somewhat less mental-asylum worthy than Jewlantis theory.