The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Emperor Julian]

I've known several holocaust deniers in my time, and from what I've gathered, there is one common trait to them all: While they are invariably nazis, they aren't actually the worst that the nazi-subculture has to offer. They are all quite idealistic, and truly believe that the world would be better off under national socialistic dictatorship...but the holocaust doesn't exactly fit this image. It's just something so heinous and inhumane that they can't really live with the fact that it happened under their supposed utopia, because it unfailingly demonstrates what is wrong in their ideals in the first place. This creates a strong cognitive dissonance, similar to what you see in leftists claiming that Soviet Union wasn't real socialism when you bring up Stalins purges.

To alleviate this dissonance some of these people start to latch onto the idea that it never happened. After all, victors write history, so it's not that far-fetched from their position to think that perhaps, just perhaps your utopian ideal could be redeemed by finding out that it's all lies and propaganda of the enemies to try to smear the glorious truth of national socialism. And before you know, you're calculating the capacity of crematory ovens in a mad and vain effort to try to prove reality wrong.

Their's sort of sub-set of disingenious anti-semites, pointlessly contrarian spergs and people who are just weak willed and drawn to strong man ideologies. The closest I've come to someone arguing in good faith is when anons online where I don't know enough to confirm the persons motivations.

On a practical level they're all really hard to take seriously if you can seperate yourself emotionally from the discussion.

 

[soft kitty]

I don't understand why this issue is so hotly debated. Innocent people died, obviously, at the hands of Hitler, what does it matter what the details or the exact numbers are? And it also seems incredibly silly to deny that nobody died (flat out denial, which I don't know how many people actually believe this) because that would just be ridiculous.

TBH you'd be better of just saying Hitler did nothing wrong. Yeah, all those jews, they deserved it because fuck them. That's a more tenable position then hurr durr never happened giant conspiracy.

 

[PowersOfPowers]

I'm just going to say that Emperor Julian is literally more stupid than Sargon, a colossal Dunning-Kruger retard that can't even be bothered to spellcheck his posts. He consistently comes off as the most emotionally invested, least well read, least intelligent, and most fallacious poster here, and that's saying something because I hate both Autistic Nazis and Zionist bootlickers and this thread is full of typical braindead polack stormfags and typical AFK-in-the-brain ZOGbots.

Reality check for you dude, you're about 20IQ lower than you think you are, and it really shows in your posts. That you go on and on about fallacies then talk about trite academic perspectives and walking all over layman takes when other people on both sides are clearly more well read then you should really trigger some introspection for you, especially since you are apparently self aware enough to know that you're aping Sargon while not being self aware enough to realize that people in this thread are unironically right about you being the Sargon of the debate.

 

[Addictedtololcows]

I don't understand why this issue is so hotly debated. Innocent people died, obviously, at the hands of Hitler, what does it matter what the details or the exact numbers are? And it also seems incredibly silly to deny that nobody died (flat out denial, which I don't know how many people actually believe this) because that would just be ridiculous.

TBH you'd be better of just saying Hitler did nothing wrong. Yeah, all those Trump's Chosen People, they deserved it because fuck them. That's a more tenable position then hurr durr never happened giant conspiracy.

It matters because its important history. Why wouldnt they question the holocaust if they believe that the numbers are dubious?

 

[soft kitty]

It matters because its important history. Why wouldnt they question the holocaust if they believe that the numbers are dubious?

Because it's dumb. And so is deplatforming anyone who has questions about the holocaust.

 

[Emperor Julian]

I'm just going to say that Emperor Julian is literally more stupid than Sargon, a colossal Dunning-Kruger exceptional individual that can't even be bothered to spellcheck his posts. He consistently comes off as the most emotionally invested, least well read, least intelligent, and most fallacious poster here, and that's saying something because I hate both Autistic Nazis and Zionist bootlickers and this thread is full of typical braindead polack stormfags and typical AFK-in-the-brain ZOGbots.

Reality check for you dude, you're about 20IQ lower than you think you are, and it really shows in your posts. That you go on and on about fallacies then talk about trite academic perspectives and walking all over layman takes when other people on both sides are clearly more well read then you should really trigger some introspection for you, especially since you are apparently self aware enough to know that you're aping Sargon while not being self aware enough to realize that people in this thread are unironically right about you being the Sargon of the debate.

I see I touched a nerve.

EDIT-out of curiousity whose the well read guys by your margin the in thread? Mostly it's been shit flinging to the point were people are mistaking serious posts for jokes and jokes for legit posts.

 

[Moral_Equivalent_of_ISIS]

I haven't studied enough of them to make a quantitive statement about it and say most were or weren't. But I do agree there have been expulsions based on fraudulent reasons, and certainly at least some were done with questionable material results (looting/stealing).



As is killing illegal by christian law, but it didn't prevent killing for christian motivated reasons with the crusades among other things.



What "insinuations" have I made that he disagrees with?

I don't have time right now to give a full answer to your post. More later.

Cool! we're actually having a reasonable discussion! I will await your response.

 

[karz]

threads like these make my head hurt

 

[TaimuRadiu]

How do you know?

Why is Ariel Toaff's book on the subject banned (in English, it's readily available in Hebrew, goyium)

 

[Lemmingwise]

Why is Ariel Toaff's book on the subject banned (in English, it's readily available in Hebrew, goyium)

I suppose the two possible conclusions are that either it's deservedly banned for spreading anti-semitic nonsense or it's undeservedly banned for spreading truths that need to be suppressed.

 

[Watermelanin]

Here's my question: Does it even matter?
Let's assume the holocaust DID happen. Yup, it was a bad thing that (most) Nazi sympathizers don't want to happen again. The fact that they bend over backwards to try to prove it was a hoax should be taken as evidence that they find it inexcusable. Otherwise, They'd be coming up with excuses for it rather than calling it a lie. So the intellectually honest way to approach Nazi ideology is to disregard the holocaust as a component of it. For all intents and purposes, the holocaust was a shitty little sideshow that has nothing to do with the average Nazi's belief system.

Autistically screeching about the holocaust as if it is some defining factor of the Nazi party is like saying Watergate somehow defines Republicans or slavery somehow defines Democrats. Things that party members did in the past does not automatically mean that it's some sort of integral part of the party itself. That's retarded.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Here's my question: Does it even matter?
Let's assume the holocaust DID happen. Yup, it was a bad thing that (most) Nazi sympathizers don't want to happen again. The fact that they bend over backwards to try to prove it was a hoax should be taken as evidence that they find it inexcusable. Otherwise, They'd be coming up with excuses for it rather than calling it a lie. So the intellectually honest way to approach Nazi ideology is to disregard the holocaust as a component of it. For all intents and purposes, the holocaust was a shitty little sideshow that has nothing to do with the average Nazi's belief system.

Autistically screeching about the holocaust as if it is some defining factor of the Nazi party is like saying Watergate somehow defines Republicans or slavery somehow defines Democrats. Things that party members did in the past does not automatically mean that it's some sort of integral part of the party itself. That's retarded.

It's like saying it's retarded for Trump to say untrue things during his election in a way to keep his name in the news that led to him being elected. Untrue things because they were exaggerated, but still exposed the media bias simultaneously.

It's not retarded if it works. The holocaust industry works. It works politically. It works financially. It works at keeping enforcing unity amongst jews (because we're basicly brainwashed that the average gentile will murder us/rat us out if given the opportunity). Is it retarded when someone does something that shouldn't work, but works perfectly?

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

You know it's your double attacks that make me question your motives. By that I mean that you simultaneously attack the credibility of the source material and try to use the claim of the source material as truthful to prove that the source material doesn't say what it seems to say.

Is this your first time arguing with a Jew?

This is standard fare and they are fine proponents of ‘pilpul’. They will just try to wear you down with TLDR replies or try to get you bogged down in the minutiae until you’ve lost track of what the original argument was about.

As someone once said

“ The more I debated with them the more familiar I became with their argumentative tactics. At the outset they counted upon the stupidity of their opponents, but when they got so entangled that they could not find a way out they played the trick of acting as innocent simpletons. Should they fail, in spite of their tricks of logic, they acted as if they could not understand the counter arguments and bolted away to another field of discussion. They would lay down truisms and platitudes; and, if you accepted these, then they were applied to other problems and matters of an essentially different nature from the original theme. If you faced them with this point they would escape again, and you could not bring them to make any precise statement. Whenever one tried to get a firm grip on any of these apostles one’s hand grasped only jelly and slime which slipped through the fingers and combined again into a solid mass a moment afterwards. If your adversary felt forced to give in to your argument, on account of the observers present, and if you then thought that at last you had gained ground, a surprise was in store for you on the following day. The Je.w would be utterly oblivious to what had happened the day before, and he would start once again by repeating his former absurdities, as if nothing had happened. Should you become indignant and remind him of yesterday’s defeat, he pretended astonishment and could not remember anything, except that on the previous day he had proved that his statements were correct. Sometimes I was dumbfounded. I do not know what amazed me the more–the abundance of their verbiage or the artful way in which they dressed up their falsehoods. I gradually came to hate them.”

 

[Marco Fucko]

Everyone who denies the holocaust is an incel and a virgin tbh.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Is this your first time arguing with a Jew?

This is standard fare and they are fine proponents of ‘pilpul’. They will just try to wear you down with TLDR replies or try to get you bogged down in the minutiae until you’ve lost track of what the original argument was about.

As someone once said

“ The more I debated with them the more familiar I became with their argumentative tactics. At the outset they counted upon the stupidity of their opponents, but when they got so entangled that they could not find a way out they played the trick of acting as innocent simpletons. Should they fail, in spite of their tricks of logic, they acted as if they could not understand the counter arguments and bolted away to another field of discussion. They would lay down truisms and platitudes; and, if you accepted these, then they were applied to other problems and matters of an essentially different nature from the original theme. If you faced them with this point they would escape again, and you could not bring them to make any precise statement. Whenever one tried to get a firm grip on any of these apostles one’s hand grasped only jelly and slime which slipped through the fingers and combined again into a solid mass a moment afterwards. If your adversary felt forced to give in to your argument, on account of the observers present, and if you then thought that at last you had gained ground, a surprise was in store for you on the following day. The Je.w would be utterly oblivious to what had happened the day before, and he would start once again by repeating his former absurdities, as if nothing had happened. Should you become indignant and remind him of yesterday’s defeat, he pretended astonishment and could not remember anything, except that on the previous day he had proved that his statements were correct. Sometimes I was dumbfounded. I do not know what amazed me the more–the abundance of their verbiage or the artful way in which they dressed up their falsehoods. I gradually came to hate them.”

I prefer to not bother either by identifying myself or the person I'm talking to.

I say directly why I doubt the intellectual honesty, and it's something people do in reverse to me too.

Would his point suddenly be better or worse if he was or wasn't a jew?

As for the mein kampf quote, I used to post it on reddit in anti-trump subreddits (read: any sub) and I often got wholehearted agreement that it exactly described Trump voters / conservatives. At least until someone pointed out where it came from.

I think the whole paragraph is like those cold reading statements where 90% of people will say the letter is written about them. In some sense it's just a really good description of the mutual experience of cognitive dissonance and having goals that are impossible to unite.

 

[Trig.Point]

When I was in the Army, I had a boss, who after a few drinks would go from regular Wehraboo going on about how the waffen SS was the greatest fighting force in history, to how Hitler went from being a Corporal in the Army to Leader of Germany in the space of 15 years, and that we should all draw inspiration from this.

He was a big guy, and could be quite scary, but one night in the battery bar, a guy told him that Otto Frank (Anne Frank's father) had been in the German artillery in World War I, had spent most of his time on the front lines. Then a grateful German nation had murdered his whole family.

He went nuts at first (he was a genuinely scary guy) but in his own way he was fairly thoughtful , and in the space of an hour seemed to have some sort of epiphany and a few weeks later he was holding court in the bar about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

I just wanted to add that story to the thread.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Would his point suddenly be better or worse if he was or wasn't a jew?

When you have had this debate as often as I have you begin to recognise the patterns. Their whole point isn’t to have a genuine debate on the issue but to derail it.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

When I was in the Army, I had a boss, who after a few drinks would go from regular Wehraboo going on about how the waffen SS was the greatest fighting force in history, to how Hitler went from being a Corporal in the Army to Leader of Germany in the space of 15 years, and that we should all draw inspiration from this.

He was a big guy, and could be quite scary, but one night in the battery bar, a guy told him that Otto Frank (Anne Frank's father) had been in the German artillery in World War I, had spent most of his time on the front lines. Then a grateful German nation had murdered his whole family.

He went nuts at first (he was a genuinely scary guy) but in his own way he was fairly thoughtful , and in the space of an hour seemed to have some sort of epiphany,(we were based in Germany and this was something that often came up) and a few weeks later he was holding court in the bar about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

I just wanted to add that story to the thread.

Interestingly, the WWII Wehrmacht apparently had a non-trivial number of Jewish, half-Jewish or quarter-Jewish servicemen in its ranks, to the extent that Herman Goering apparently once angrily shouted that "I will decide who is a Jew!" when a subordinate raised the question of why so many Luftwaffe officers seemed to have Jewish backgrounds.

 

[Lemmingwise]

When I was in the Army, I had a boss, who after a few drinks would go from regular Wehraboo going on about how the waffen SS was the greatest fighting force in history, to how Hitler went from being a Corporal in the Army to Leader of Germany in the space of 15 years, and that we should all draw inspiration from this.

He was a big guy, and could be quite scary, but one night in the battery bar, a guy told him that Otto Frank (Anne Frank's father) had been in the German artillery in World War I, had spent most of his time on the front lines. Then a grateful German nation had murdered his whole family.

He went nuts at first (he was a genuinely scary guy) but in his own way he was fairly thoughtful , and in the space of an hour seemed to have some sort of epiphany,(we were based in Germany and this was something that often came up) and a few weeks later he was holding court in the bar about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

I just wanted to add that story to the thread.

Interesting story, but a reminder that Anne Frank died in a camp hospital of a disease, so I'm not sure it's accurate to say they murdered his family.

That's not even a revisionist point, it's the official version of events.

 

[Trig.Point]

Interestingly, the WWII Wehrmacht apparently had a non-trivial number of Jewish, half-Jewish or quarter-Jewish servicemen in its ranks, to the extent that Herman Goering apparently once angrily shouted that "I will decide who is a Jew!" when a subordinate raised the question of why so many Luftwaffe officers seemed to have Jewish backgrounds.

You're referring to Erhard Milch the guy who was in charge of Luftwaffe aircraft production before the outbreak of the war. Even then Goering had to jump through hoops to defend him, he only survived after Goering rigged an investigation to declare the his Jewish father wasn't actually his father (ie his mother had an affair).

It wasn't some casual thing, it only happened because at the time Goering was probably the second most powerful man in Nazi Germany.