The Last of Us Franchise - Because it's apparently a franchise now. This thread has been double-DMCA’d by Sony Interactive Entertainment.

talent99 said:
Because if players had the chance to kill Abby, Neil wouldn't like the outcome which most players would choose.
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I'd love to see a Telltale style percentages card about that choice. "99.99% of you chose to leave abby to rot on the cross."

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Dumpster dived waifu said:
The only players that would choose abby are those that wanted the trophy for sparing her.
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And even then I'd think you'd be excused from having to let her live if you were trying to go completionist on the game like some kind of sick masochist given there's nothing positive about TLOU2's story, much like the trophy from Mass Effect 3 that involved killing Mordin instead of letting him complete his research - AFAIK if you weren't trying to go for 100% completion you were pretty much regarded as a scumbag for betraying him, that achievement being a sort of digital Scarlet Letter.

Side note: I learned that back when it was discovered Brianna Wu, who did not go completionist on ME3, has that trophy. I wonder what that ghoul thinks about TLOU2, haven't bothered checking in on that cow in a while.

But yeah, in almost every stupid argument I've seen, people point out that the 'message' of letting Abby live was that ultimately the whole pursuit of revenge is pointless. And my counterargument is the obvious logical fallacy in that A) Ellie still loses everything anyway so the sudden decision to not kill Abby makes no sense, and B) if it doesn't matter, then present the illusion of choice and let the player pick - the ending is the same either way.

The only reason that Abby would even need to survive the game is if she is involved in what plans exist for Part 3, which is likely given how much of a Mary Sue she is to Druckman.

EDIT: In fact, in all this discussion about Abby somehow trying to buck the trend of all women in video games being swimsuit models, there's a character from a game that is generally regarded as being a low point in its series (granted this was at the time), and that's Colonel T. Zarpedon from Borderlands Pre-Sequel.

She is straight up a hardcore military type whose introduction outright involves mass slaughter of innocent workers on the Helios Space Station and an absolute no negotiation stance on the whole 'use this superweapon to blow up the moon and kill everybody on it'. At a glance she's pretty much a boilerplate supervillain. Oh, and her face is literally a canyon of purple Eridium energy, she ain't going to win any beauty pagents.

However, despite the fact she's trying to murder billions by blowing up Elpis - which she acknowledges will also destroy Helios, herself, and all of the Lost Legion - she repeatedly tries to reason with the 'good guys' to try and understand her point of view and convince them to stop trying to stop her, going so far as in the early game to offer the player a ship to simply get the hell away from the entire system Pandora is in, thus saving their lives once Elpis blew up and took out everything around it. She even agrees with Jack just after the player gets back onto Helios proper, when he betrays all the scientists by ejecting them out an airlock, comparing it to what she's trying to do in the name of the greater good. Heck, back at the beginning of the game, if you do some simple tasks like kill some asshole as per the recorded last wishes of a dead Lost Legion pilot, Zarpedon makes a point of thanking you by revealing a secret treasure chest of guns, mentioning the Legion will get them back when they kill you anyway.

Ultimately, you the player learn that Zarpedon and the rest of the Lost Legion discovered the Vault inside Elpis and the dangerous secrets it contained and Zarpedon correctly deduces Jack would use the information to wake The Warrior and cause untold galactic armagedon when he finally snapped (which gradually happens over the course of the game as Jack is constantly betrayed by his allies for one reason or another as they try to kill him). Zarpedon was fully aware that she was killing millions, perhaps billions, of innocents, but the cost would be worth destroying the Vault and saving the rest of the known universe. Her method is obviously wrong and misguided, but you can actually sympathise with her ultimate goal. Additionally, the Lost Legion in full got abandoned by Dahl a few years prior to the events of the game and they've largely been living a pointless vigil until they discover the dangers of the vault, so being on an extemist self-sacrificial bent simply to end their own drawn out lives with newfound purpose also makes sense.

Abby, in comparison, only has superficial expression of emotion and is clearly sociopathic, whose entire character only was designed to mirror Ellie in a reverse way by simply making Ellie a terrible person so Abby seems normal in comparison. Hell, is there even any point in TLOU2 where Abby is seen being remorseful about her dad and the whole revenge quest outside of Abby Goes Golfing? Pre-sequel has numerous instances where Zarpedon expresses full comprehension of what she's doing and why she has to do it.

It really says something when Pre-Sequel is a goofy-ass game and yet does the 'there are no good guys' angle way better than the super-serious TLOU2.

EDIT 2: Oh, yeah, and there's another thing Pre-Sequel does right and TLOU2 does wrong. Right before the Ramf-Kampfjet V or whatever the annoying ship boss is Jack makes you fight (since it literally can not physically stop you from entering the Eridium mines or whatever they were), there is a soldier who begs for his life. Jack naturally orders you to kill them.

You, as the player, can choose to kill him...or not kill him and instead just not do anything for ten seconds. The soldier, if you let him live, quickly runs into a non-accessible room to despawn offscreen, you get a piece of unique character dialogue depending on who you're playing (or in a group game, what class the host is), Jack berates you about not killing people ahead of time before they kill you, and then you do the boss. I've only gotten up to that point twice (once as Claptrap, once as Fake Jack) and I didn't kill the soldier either time because I felt that was what those characters would do - likewise, I totally would kill the guy if I was playing Wilhelm or Misha, since they canonically are assholes (And are bosses in BL2 themselves).
 
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The_Penultimate_Warrior said:
It's a shame TellTale did go under, the new engine in the final season was vastly better (I remember trying to play Game of Thrones on the 360, and it barely holding together.) At least we did get a definitive conclusion to her story, and a fairly upbeat ending.

In fact I've just thought of another LoU 2 parallel - a seemingly obvious choice from the first season produces the main antagonist for this one. Did Druckmann just see the script and think how could he make it more miserable?
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telltale went under because everyone realized their choices were false after the first season of TWD and they kept cranking shit out with the exact same formula, just different actors. don't kill the dad while he's having a heart attack? kenny crushes his head instead. his daughter still leaves, but maybe she doesn't hate you because you didn't do the deed! the biggest difference any given player 'choice' makes is which of a pair of characters survives, but the story doesn't ultimately change any outside of a couple lines of dialogue. i kind of enjoyed TWD season 1 after getting all the episodes in a bundle, but it also put me off of ever getting another TT game, which i'm sure isn't an isolated experience.

at least something good came out of telltale games though
 
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if the game allowed you to leave her to die, the resulting alternate ending would be a giant guilt trip and be intentionally even less satisfying than the regular one as a "fuck you" to the player. ellie's life would be somehow significantly worse off in this timeline. she gets captured or loses a whole arm or some shit.

the credits music is replaced with druckman personally berating you for being a monster who let abby die. he just goes on and on until he's audibly out of breath holding back tears. he doesn't even finish either, he gets abruptly cut off mid-sentence once the credits end.
 
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The handsome tard said:
You know, I recently looked back at one of my favorite classic games of all time. Metal Gear Solid 1

Im a fan of the whole series (tho I consider Revengence non canon) and while looking back at that great game even for today's standards, I have realized something.

Spoilers for those who still didnt play (tho the game is over 20 years old soo...)


MGS does have this element of a revenge plot with someone you killed in the previous game. Except Naomi's revenge for Gray Fox (her foster brother) felt far more compelling and deep than Abby's revenge, even tho we experienced more of her while we only saw Naomi in dialogue and in a face portrait.

I think it stands to show how poorly Abby and TLOU Part 2 are written. By the end of MGS, you still feel for Naomi despite all, she comes to regret her decision to infect Snake to kill him after seeing he is not a remorseless killer and is willing to risk his own life to save others. I think Naomi's revenge plot works better than Abby's because if the intention was to create sympathy for what should, for all intentions and purposes, an evil selfish person, then the decision of making her revenge only an aspect of the plot (but still interconnected), make it a twist and have her and Snake have private conversations where they are honest with each other. Naomi hated Snake for killing her brother (even tho Gray Fox probably knew the risks when fighting Snake back in Zamzibar) and Snake didnt blame her, he still showed respect for Gray Fox and even her intentions on getting revenge. His only "objection" to it was that he couldnt die just yet, he still had a job to do.

Ah yes, and Naomi also didnt murder beloved characters to establish how much "business" she means. Her revenge is compelling not because how brutal she is but because how clever she is to play everyone (like a fiddle) but it also allows her to still get sympathy despite theorically dooming Snake to death by Foxdie at any random time in his life.

Besides, Naomi's dialogue and termoils were finely written and bounced perfectly with Snake's, she had a huge faith in genetics, thinking they control everything, while Snake taught her genes dont mean jack in the grand scheme. For him, his actions defined who he was, not his genetic makeup. It felt compelling to watch these two.

And again, all of this through dialogue and face portraits alone.

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Yeah, I remember looking back on this exchange a few weeks ago. The parts that always get me is when Naomi (well really her voice actor) stresses how alone she felt and Snake still intent on finishing the mission despite knowing he's been screwed over. I give Kojima all kinds of crap which he deserves, but MGS1 is a game I give him pretty much a complete pass on even if it is a tad too cinematic for my current tastes.
 
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verissimus said:
Yeah, I remember looking back on this exchange a few weeks ago. The parts that always get me is when Naomi (well really her voice actor) stresses how alone she felt and Snake still intent on finishing the mission despite knowing he's been screwed over. I give Kojima all kinds of crap which he deserves, but MGS1 is a game I give him pretty much a complete pass on even if it is a tad too cinematic for my current tastes.
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MGS1 is Kojimas true masterpiece. And this isn't nostalgia talking as I did a complete replay of the main series less than a year ago and I still enjoyed playing MGS1 while the rest were kind of a slog to get through.
 
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Optimus Prime said:
And even then I'd think you'd be excused from having to let her live if you were trying to go completionist on the game like some kind of sick masochist given there's nothing positive about TLOU2's story, much like the trophy from Mass Effect 3 that involved killing Mordin instead of letting him complete his research - AFAIK if you weren't trying to go for 100% completion you were pretty much regarded as a scumbag for betraying him, that achievement being a sort of digital Scarlet Letter.

Side note: I learned that back when it was discovered Brianna Wu, who did not go completionist on ME3, has that trophy. I wonder what that ghoul thinks about TLOU2, haven't bothered checking in on that cow in a while.

But yeah, in almost every stupid argument I've seen, people point out that the 'message' of letting Abby live was that ultimately the whole pursuit of revenge is pointless. And my counterargument is the obvious logical fallacy in that A) Ellie still loses everything anyway so the sudden decision to not kill Abby makes no sense, and B) if it doesn't matter, then present the illusion of choice and let the player pick - the ending is the same either way.

The only reason that Abby would even need to survive the game is if she is involved in what plans exist for Part 3, which is likely given how much of a Mary Sue she is to Druckman.

EDIT: In fact, in all this discussion about Abby somehow trying to buck the trend of all women in video games being swimsuit models, there's a character from a game that is generally regarded as being a low point in its series (granted this was at the time), and that's Colonel T. Zarpedon from Borderlands Pre-Sequel.

She is straight up a hardcore military type whose introduction outright involves mass slaughter of innocent workers on the Helios Space Station and an absolute no negotiation stance on the whole 'use this superweapon to blow up the moon and kill everybody on it'. At a glance she's pretty much a boilerplate supervillain. Oh, and her face is literally a canyon of purple Eridium energy, she ain't going to win any beauty pagents.

However, despite the fact she's trying to murder billions by blowing up Elpis - which she acknowledges will also destroy Helios, herself, and all of the Lost Legion - she repeatedly tries to reason with the 'good guys' to try and understand her point of view and convince them to stop trying to stop her, going so far as in the early game to offer the player a ship to simply get the hell away from the entire system Pandora is in, thus saving their lives once Elpis blew up and took out everything around it. She even agrees with Jack just after the player gets back onto Helios proper, when he betrays all the scientists by ejecting them out an airlock, comparing it to what she's trying to do in the name of the greater good. Heck, back at the beginning of the game, if you do some simple tasks like kill some asshole as per the recorded last wishes of a dead Lost Legion pilot, Zarpedon makes a point of thanking you by revealing a secret treasure chest of guns, mentioning the Legion will get them back when they kill you anyway.

Ultimately, you the player learn that Zarpedon and the rest of the Lost Legion discovered the Vault inside Elpis and the dangerous secrets it contained and Zarpedon correctly deduces Jack would use the information to wake The Warrior and cause untold galactic armagedon when he finally snapped (which gradually happens over the course of the game as Jack is constantly betrayed by his allies for one reason or another as they try to kill him). Zarpedon was fully aware that she was killing millions, perhaps billions, of innocents, but the cost would be worth destroying the Vault and saving the rest of the known universe. Her method is obviously wrong and misguided, but you can actually sympathise with her ultimate goal. Additionally, the Lost Legion in full got abandoned by Dahl a few years prior to the events of the game and they've largely been living a pointless vigil until they discover the dangers of the vault, so being on an extemist self-sacrificial bent simply to end their own drawn out lives with newfound purpose also makes sense.

Abby, in comparison, only has superficial expression of emotion and is clearly sociopathic, whose entire character only was designed to mirror Ellie in a reverse way by simply making Ellie a terrible person so Abby seems normal in comparison. Hell, is there even any point in TLOU2 where Abby is seen being remorseful about her dad and the whole revenge quest outside of Abby Goes Golfing? Pre-sequel has numerous instances where Zarpedon expresses full comprehension of what she's doing and why she has to do it.

It really says something when Pre-Sequel is a goofy-ass game and yet does the 'there are no good guys' angle way better than the super-serious TLOU2.
Click to expand...
How many amphetamines are you on?
 
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Richard29 said:
MGS1 is a pretty solid game! I played MGS2 first but i loved MGS1 aswell when i got it on PC
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My main thing is just how much bloat there is with the rest of the series. I get it was probably more a technical choice than an artistic one, but compared to the rest of the series MGS1 feels very quick and to the point with a lot of the exposition. I didn't skip any cutscenes and I think I clocked in around 9 or 10 hours, while the rest of the series I was hitting around 20 hours or more.

I'll also die on a hill that MGS1 is a far better designed game than the rest of the series. It almost feels like every room is a puzzle meant to be figured out, where as in later games it feels like he just became really reliant on having the player use the tranq gun to get by.
 
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I just beat the game, I stand by it being around a 6.5. If the rest of the game was as interesting as the last couple hours then it'd score a lot higher for me. I'm gonna be honest, I ended up liking Abby more by the end of the game just because of Ellie's tendency to make poor decision after poor decision plus Abby's side of the story was just more interesting. I don't even really have an issue with the ending really. This shit isn't high art like Cuckmann thinks it is but I can't call it legit bad, the story has it's high points and the gameplay only had me bored during the opening hours. It' a linear game but there's plenty of places to explore when getting from point A to point B, I played on hard mode so doing this was pretty much required if you wanted enough ammo to have a chance against your next zombie horde.

The amount of missed opportunities when it came to the horror aspect of the game are enormous, I don't think zombies have ever been scary since they're basically punching bags and target practice, you know what are scary though? Cults which this game had one of but never went into very much depth on and when you saw their little community, it just seemed like a normal religious community with not much creepy about it. The Rattlers at the end of the game were pretty scary in their cruelty and the things you'd see/hear about them doing to people but they showed up at the very end of the fucking game so they weren't explored in very much detail at all either. The scariest part of the entire game was actually the very last area you can walk around in where you see starved, dead and mutilated bodies that the Rattler's left for dead because they tried to escape.
 
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John Merston said:
Sexist designs made by the patriarchy to oppress women.
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See i've never understood that criticism. Its like the typical criticism that if you have violence in video games it means you wanna kill someone. Not politics or anything? Apparently. (then again its money)

But if you see a girl. I am gonna google something here to be politically correct (person who sees this, dont sue me ) XD
But here

unnamed.jpg


Found a complete random girl on internet. Tell me if you saw this irl. This is not a sexualized character in a game or anything. Tell me.. would you not go home, jerk off thinking of this if this is your type? Would you just be.. OH THANK GOD. Not a sexualized person, i will never do that :P

You cant deny biology. The thing is when video games have those so called sexualized females, its done out of absolute bizarre reasons, it makes it obvious but men are gonna sexualize females either way, like it or not. Thats life.

If anything the only criticism would be lack of practical clothes.. which would make too much sense for these people. Like nobody is gonna fight a giant shark in a swimsuit.. Although if they wanna make wild crazy games thats their choice :)
 
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