The Legend of Heroes Series - Possibly The Most Underrated JRPG Series

It was bad enough in Reverie that they even pretended he wasn't the main character.

Later Trails is really bad in the "as long as you didn't directly kill a named character, all your sins can be redeemed".

"Lloyd is the main protagonist, we swear."

Falcom is scared shitless of having actual villains - 95% of the "bad guys" are either not really bad, under mind control, doing it for a greater cause, being a retard with nonsensical motivations, or a combination of those. Fucking CSIV boiled down the big bad being a fucking slimy eye thing that was the "really the root of all evil actually, guys".
 
"Lloyd is the main protagonist, we swear."

Falcom is scared shitless of having actual villains - 95% of the "bad guys" are either not really bad, under mind control, doing it for a greater cause, being a retard with nonsensical motivations, or a combination of those. Fucking CSIV boiled down the big bad being a fucking slimy eye thing that was the "really the root of all evil actually, guys".
I think they did the" Rean never killed anyone" bullshit despite being a soldier at a war and him not killing directly contribute to his own countrymen dying.

The Crossbell arc villains are really fucking bad in getting moral get out of jail free card for being good looking. But no one is worse than Crow in this category. Realistically, the dude killed tens of thousands because his granddad got depressed, not even murdered.
 
I think they did the" Rean never killed anyone" bullshit despite being a soldier at a war and him not killing directly contribute to his own countrymen dying.
Dude literally cuts down a Calvardian airship which explodes, using his big, shiny mech, and within the next scene, he goes "It's good the war ended with no casualties.". Fucking sure, whatever you say.

As for Crow, he's basically Loewe 2.0, but worse in almsot every way. They try to pull a Queen Alicia pardoning with Emperor Eugent again, in which the criminal is pardoned of all their crimes because "they were a victim too", all it took was him dying at the Infernal Castle for people to essentially forget his role as the terrorist leader responsisble for numerous crimes around the entire empire. People in Trails are the most forgiving motherfuckers in anything I've seen.
 
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I am overall more lenient on Crow. Osborne played dirty blowing up railway lines and bus bombing and airship bombing people who were obstacles because it was the path of least resistance for him. He is not some poor innocent victim here. Shoot at people, expect to get shot at. And then in CS2 Crow is a soldier in a war the gears of which were already in motion and would have happened regardless of Crow's involvement. Again Osborne is also responsible for this by claiming eminent domain to build railways through non-Imperial government territories and then using the RMP to invade and police territories that aren't his, inciting the nobles so he can then diminish their power and steal their wealth, etc. I don't see much of a difference between Crow and Cassius and the other Liberl war vets, the difference being that Crow didn't have some "formal" piece of paper that magically declares he is an authorized killer and therefore a hero, not an unauthorized murderer, and Crow's side lost and Osborne has great propaganda power so Crow's side gets words with connotations attached to them.

The only thing that can't be spun is 1. the ILF trying to instigate a world war in Nord by false flagging both bases. It is annoying the characters in the story don't bring that up. And 2. trying to blow up Orchis Tower just to get at Osborne, when Crow apparently had access to Ouroboros tech including archaisms and some sort of super sniper rifle that could hit Osborne from over a mile away. I doubt Erebonia has modern USA Secret Service levels of guaranteeing near total coverage of the President as far as using lasers to destroy drones or agents scouting for sight lines wherever the president goes, etc. Crow would have had a realistic chance of taking him out. But no is upset that Crow nearly blew up their beloved friend Towa, and then later when the Crossbell characters get shoehorned in as best friends with the Erebonian cast, none of them take issue with nearly getting blown up either. Even Olivier almost got blown up. It'll be funny if Rocksmith and Crow meet in Kai and they act like everything is fine.

Loewe associates with mass murderers rather than executing them like he did with the prostitution place. I can't take anyone from Ouroboros seriously.
 
Like I said, he didn't even directly kill a family member to warrant it.

The series really dropped the ball with Osbourne's character, he started out so cool and menacing. Just a normal dude aho climbed the ranks and made his shithole country great again while the aristocrats seethed and mald. Contrasting well with the more supernatural shit with ouroborous. But then it made the royal families into dindus, massively watered down the class warfare and discrimination, and went ACTUALLY he is the reincarnation of a legendary Emperor.
 
White Aion is a bitch and his boss fight is a joke. Like the Aions and would be fucking awesome if i get to control one of them or a big mech in the future games.
 
White Aion is a bitch and his boss fight is a joke. Like the Aions and would be fucking awesome if i get to control one of them or a big mech in the future games.

I would imagine the prodigal red power ranger will eventually join the Awakener lineup we saw at the end of Reverie and get his aion imbued with his last mech's spirit too.
 
Azure Deity is a bullshit boss, just wanna go on record saying that, is that he isnt difficult, is just super fucking annoying.
 
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I'm a Gundam refugee help.

Finished watching Dieus Neue Thiemes and it was honestly the best sci-fi anime I've ever watched.

I picked it up during GquuuuX rolling out on Amazon and the difference is glaring. Pacing, tone, audio, narrative.

What do. I'm a Gundam fanboy since the 80s.
 
Dumb question but was looking up whats next in the timeline and noticed that CS 1 happens around the same-ish time as crosbell arc. Should i had played CS 1 first instead of Zero/Azure?
 
Dumb question but was looking up whats next in the timeline and noticed that CS 1 happens around the same-ish time as crosbell arc. Should i had played CS 1 first instead of Zero/Azure?

Follow-up question:

Suggested watch order - considering I've already watched up to S04 of DNT?
 
I'm a Gundam refugee help.

Finished watching Dieus Neue Thiemes and it was honestly the best sci-fi anime I've ever watched.

I picked it up during GquuuuX rolling out on Amazon and the difference is glaring. Pacing, tone, audio, narrative.

What do. I'm a Gundam fanboy since the 80s.
We do have a gundam thread and a general mecha thread.
Follow-up question:

Suggested watch order - considering I've already watched up to S04 of DNT?
Eh i dont what series youre referring to.
 
We do have a gundam thread and a general mecha thread.
Eh i dont what series youre referring to.

I've been active in that thread too, which is cosy.

DNT - Die Neue These (remake of the original LoTG)

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Dumb question but was looking up whats next in the timeline and noticed that CS 1 happens around the same-ish time as crosbell arc. Should i had played CS 1 first instead of Zero/Azure?
No, you are perfectly fine in the order you played. CS1 and 2 happen in a similar timeframe as zero and azure, but zero and azure came first. So there won't be any nudge nudge wink wink outside of some setup for cold steel while cold steel will be giving you references to happenings in Crossbell.

Since it seems like you are almost done with Azure, Cold Steel starts very slow and is also a fantastic breaking point if you want to let the series rest a bit.
 
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The Legend of Heroes is a series of JRPGs made by Falcom, and going back in history to the NES days, but its highly likely that the discussion will center around the Trails saga in particular, given their recent surge on Steam.

Okay I'm fucking retarded I thought this was a Legend of the Galactic Heroes thread.

Carry on.
 
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No, you are perfectly fine in the order you played. CS1 and 2 happen in a similar timeframe as zero and azure, but zero and azure came first. So there won't be any nudge nudge wink wink outside of some setup for cold steel while cold steel will be giving you references to happenings in Crossbell.

Since it seems like you are almost done with Azure, Cold Steel starts very slow and is also a fantastic breaking point if you want to let the series rest a bit.
Was considering taking a small break and play other games. Almost done with azure but i had to put the pc on sleep because the fights went on more than i thought and i didnt want to do shit again. I do wonder though, will my knowledge of arts and orbmaments pass to CS and onwards or do i have to learn a whole new system?
 
Was considering taking a small break and play other games. Almost done with azure but i had to put the pc on sleep because the fights went on more than i thought and i didnt want to do shit again. I do wonder though, will my knowledge of arts and orbmaments pass to CS and onwards or do i have to learn a whole new system?
Half and half. Evasion tanks are still gods for example. I favored also using arts a lot in Cold Steel in general, if you get enough delay reduction your mage can become a machinegun throwing the base spell and do stupid amounts of damage, this increases by a LOT once a new system called orders comes in with CS2. Thing is each game adds a new tool into the shed and things will change each game to a degree on what is the most abusable thing till you hit it's apex in Reverie and can basically break the game in half like 10% in. The biggest change you will notice is that you don't get spells by accumulating an element in a branch, you get specific spells from specific orbments. To put it in other terms, it behaves more like the FFVII materia system, stacking elemental orbments in the same branch doesn't really do anything anymore. There is also a lot of party bloat, so in a sense the simplification is appreciated. Anything that blocks a single hit is still fantastic.
 
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Was considering taking a small break and play other games. Almost done with azure but i had to put the pc on sleep because the fights went on more than i thought and i didnt want to do shit again. I do wonder though, will my knowledge of arts and orbmaments pass to CS and onwards or do i have to learn a whole new system?
The orbment systems slowly change through the games as you go, there will of course be changed arts and certain quartz will have their elements shuffled.
The elemental value system is completely gone as of Cold Steel, and stat boosting quartz is a flat value instead of a percentage. Arts are now just straight up tied to certain quartz now as well (not a fan of this system).
 
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Okay so i have completed Azure and thus the Crosbell arc comes to a close. I want to preface this by saying that Zero and Azure are probably my favorite so far and i had tons of fun going through them.

Trails of Zero
Difficulty: Hard
Hours: 34
DP: 292
Rank: 3

I felt like i was in a police movie while playing and solving cases was a lot of fun. This is like the 3rd game where i actively take notes of things and when it came time to solve the case i would stare down my notes and 4 times out of 5 i would guess right and it gave me a dopamine hit. The story starts out chill, meet the team and we get to work. Seeing the references to previous games was a treat, especially 3rd references. I'm gonna level with you all coming from Liberl Arc Joachim set off my Weiss flags because he just gave me that vibe. To my surprise he was the big bad and the plot twist wasn't as impactful although that's on me. Regarding Renne, her door at 3rd and the events inside all make more sense, considering she can integrate the personality of people into herself which paired with her intellect allows her to deduce and predict how people will behave. Also pretty fucked that the implication that one of the Diet members was being blackmailed because he went to the lodge which opens some pretty dark implications. Now this may be a hot take but DG feels more of an evil organization than Ouroboros. Overall the story is relatively "chill" compared to Azure.

Honestly the bosses weren't that nor they were difficult. Now you can attribute that to me having the knowledge of previous game and already having an idea of how will i approach things. Encounters and bosses feel more "fair" and less bullshit compared to sky 1st or 2nd. The only boss that gave me a challenge was Garcia because he was a moving train and hit just as hard. Usually i would do a breakdown of my team and strategy but the fights were relatively easy that going in detail feels like a waste.


Trails of Azure
Difficulty: Hard
Hours: 47
DP: 301
Rank: 3

Hoooooooly shiiiiiit, this game had me at the edge of my seat more so in the later half, truly the payoff i worked hard to reach. Now i believe Azure is better than Zero both gameplay and story wise. KeA being a vessel for the sept-terrion and being able to manipulate causality is pretty cool although i feel the story could have done more with that. So for starters now being able to play as Wazy and Noel was fun and Noel hits hard made the game trivial to an extent because i had her as my dmg dealer, Wazy for me was mostly lacking until the end where you get the good shit. The introduction of Red Constellation and the story with Randy was enjoyable although i feel they could have made Randy a little more bloodthirsty maybe pit him against Lloyd in order to calm the bloodlust. Overall The story of Randy was good, almost great if they had pushed it a little farther. They added a fucking beach episode which i didn't mind and was actually a breath of fresh air and a pause to all the shit that was going on. Obviously i picked Elie although i can see people trying to pair Lloyd with Cecile which means you would be cucking Guy(Although he tells you to basically fuck her, which makes it weird for me. The introduction of Arianrhod has to be one of my favorite parts of the game, i like her character design and I'm curious to see how the story with her will develop. The plotwist of Grimwood being the true master mind and the one that shot Guy was a genuinely surprise that i didnt see coming although makes certain things make sense when you pay attention, which i sadly glossed over. Bell being evil and plotting all this time makes sense and explains her urge to buy the rosenberg doll from the Auction. Funny thing i noticed is that there's a quest where you gotta find her Rosenberg dolls, which is funny because one of her attacks is using those same dolls to murder you. Little nitpick but i wish Lloyd would've gotten a little angrier towards Arios after learning that he indirectly got Guy killed, although i understand he wasn't responsible for Guy's death he was the one that was originally gonna silence Guy, damm you Lloyd and you maturity. The real tragedy was losing my nigga Pater-Mater, which a depressing thing happened in that scene. So when i saw Pater-Mater all fucked up i thought "Well they can just salvage the Ai or make a backup and he will be good as new" the fucking Joshua drops "the gordias ai cant be backed up" and just like Renne i felt sad and i had to get up and put my hands on my head and walk around my living room, realizing this is the last time ill see him.



The bosses this time around were slightly more challenging and some were super fucking annoying. There were some notable ones ill go over here. Before that i would like to describe my general team setup for the fights ill go over:
Lloyd: Evasion Tank
Tio: Mage Dps/ Off healer
Elie: Dps/ jack of all trades
Randy: Full dps?no arts damage whatsoever

support changes but for general: Noel and Dudley

For starters the scarlet Ogre, the first encounter with the timer. Holy fuck that man hits hard and although i know youre meant to survive and not win(ill assume you get DP if you do)it gave me a preview of how his real boss fight was gonna play out. Now the real Scarlet Ogre fight was a test of the pain tolerance of my team, real hard hitter compared to the others and their domains. Noel(CDF) that fight was tedious because at that point i had committed Llyod to full tank so had no real damage, on top of that her fucking s-craft would almost one shot me and at times she would take 2 turns back to back which would spell defeat since usually was craft + S-craft. The only saving grace is that Lloyd was avoiding most of her attacks so that would give me time to heal/buff. Wazy is a bitch as a normal human and as a demon, but his sword hit like a truck although doesn't matter since i tend to have my team spread when its just a single boss. Special shoutout to Aeolia and Lynn for making me sweat despite being a fucking side quest. Lynn when she goes Xinglong or whatever the fuck makes later bosses hit like a wet noodle and Aeolia on support...holy fuck where were they during Liber Ark, they could have solo'd Weiss, loewe and the enforcers. Arianrhod(My beloved)was an experience to fight both mechanically and story wise. She is in my opinion the best boss in the game and maybe stands as one of the best in the franchise. So as a fellow kiwi pointed out, her mask has its own health bar, i found that the hard way. She hits hard and her S-craft is basically a game over unless you're buffed or have immunity. i had to get creative and use Lloyd to isolate her while i had randy hitting her and tio and elie using arts and being support and with A-reflex, Adamantine wall and alot of evasion i managed to "win"(ill assume if you actually beat then youll get DP) Now funny story happened with that fight. i have gone in blind when going against bosses so i take every fight like i have to win, even if the condition is to lose. That said after getting pounded by Aria(My beloved) the first time i actually broke her mask i thought the fight would finish, yet i saw that health bar fill up completely and i felt dread, despair, sadness and helpleness. so much that i straight up closed the game and went out for a walk, now i didnt know that after breaking her mask if you were defeated the game would continue so imagine how i felt after that realization. Arios as a boss was challenging because he had a repertoire of moves to fuck me over and his minions were annoying because i had to juggle them while dealing with Arios and A-reflex did jack shit because the magic reflected had ATT GUARD. I would try to isolate him but he had this hate boner towards Tio and Elie so it made the fight annoying.

He gets his own section. I don't mind bosses bullshittery when you can still you do your own thing you know? yet this fucking nigger has the ability to thanos snap your buffs which leaves you open unless you can react with Tio and her shield S-craft. Now the boss starts tame, just doing final boss things like nullifying getting beaten everytime i would deplete his health bar. The second phase is where the real boss fight begins. Now mind you i spent hours on this phase of the boss getting defeated and trying again. After awhile i decided to take notes and then quit in order to make a plan and change orbs. grinded a little to get U-materials for divine cloths in order to get the dedicated equipment for Elie and Tio(120 in total) after that i went again. Marie bell is piss easy. After arriving i steeled myself, prepared for pain and struggle. Everything was going good until i reached like 20% of its health where he did the annoying Nihility + S-craft, now mind you i expected the usual but he did a different animation, when it concluded everyone took fuck you damage and one-shot my party, later i would learn he has kill move when its low health that cant be avoided. Thus i made my gameplan and went in for the last time. I was fighting the boss as normally, taking out the minions first because they were annoying and draining CP. Then i notice something, if i line up a big spell that will go off after Deity, he would always cast the impede move, thus with Tio i would spam Genesis Flood and he would always do the impede move, i looped him for a little and got huge damage in. when i saw his life hit around 25k i decided to burst him with Burst mode. Now something i didnt know is that you can extend burst mode by using the burst orbs(tried to use one during burst mode to see if it worked and it did! Thus i chipped away his life and with that i got over the last barrier of Azure.

Don't be sad because its over, be happy that it happened sums up my feelings with this Arc. I wish i could erase my memory of this game and play the arc again. I hope to see them in future installments. The story has reached its conclusion, to be continued...In another land.
 
So, I can finally talk about why Azure's final act felt so disappointing to me;
Mariabell. I just don't give a shit about her at all - she's a terrible character. I was ready for Dieter and Ian to be the final villains of the story, only for Ian to be not-one-shotted by Mariabell. It felt like a "mastermind behind the mastermind" twist just for the sake of having one, at the expense of much more interesting characters.

Illya should have died, or at least received some form of permanent damage to her body, you know, to feel like the story did indeed have stakes.

Going around the country with your church bros in a Merkabah, hanging out with Wazy and Zeit was so fucking good, though.
 
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