The Legend of Heroes Series - Possibly The Most Underrated JRPG Series

[ForgedBlades]

Trails Through Daybreak announced, summer 2024. If you're reading this and have wanted to get into the series but have felt too overwhelmed by its enormity to do so, this is a legitimate place to start.

 

[ShitLurker]

Trails Through Daybreak announced, summer 2024. If you're reading this and have wanted to get into the series but have felt too overwhelmed by its enormity to do so, this is a legitimate place to start.

I gather you have played the patched version? Does it do a good job or did you find it lacking enough to suggest waiting for the official translation?

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Finished Cold Steel 3, damn that was one rough ending. I like that the game goes "no, named characters can die now", but killing Olivier and Millium is rough. I'm torn between continuing immediately and risking getting burned out on the series or playing something else. The penultimate dungeon was annoying as you don't have resources for 3 parties, while the final dungeon did the party dwindling much better instead of leaving it to other NPCs to battle the enemies. I like that the cast is finally on equal grounds against Ouroboros. I think the new students should have had lower stat growth to make using the old class 7 preferable.

The fucking roster is getting massive though, I played the prologue and already we get another 4 from wind and probably the rest of the cast from Crossbell. Also jesus christ Ellie's boobs are looking like a modder having too much fun, original sprite:

Updated sprite:


They are bigger than her head.

 

[ShitLurker]

Finished Cold Steel 3, damn that was one rough ending. I like that the game goes "no, named characters can die now", but killing Olivier and Millium is rough. I'm torn between continuing immediately and risking getting burned out on the series or playing something else. The penultimate dungeon was annoying as you don't have resources for 3 parties, while the final dungeon did the party dwindling much better instead of leaving it to other NPCs to battle the enemies. I like that the cast is finally on equal grounds against Ouroboros. I think the new students should have had lower stat growth to make using the old class 7 preferable.

The fucking roster is getting massive though, I played the prologue and already we get another 4 from wind and probably the rest of the cast from Crossbell. Also jesus christ Ellie's boobs are looking like a modder having too much fun, original sprite:
View attachment 5357972
Updated sprite:
View attachment 5357974

They are bigger than her head.

Yes, Ellie and Rixia's tits become sentient as the series continues (Emma manages to not feel like a tit monster as much, maybe since she started with a polygon model), and yes, it is incredibly distracting, somebody needed a hard bonk with the no horny stick.

That aside, I'd say you are fine to go straight into 4 since 3 was an ending that really asks you to keep on trucking. But be warned, 4 is a fucking long one. According to steam, I spent 116 hours in CS3 and 140 in CS4, I do tend to take my time and am one one of the nutcases that talks to all the NPCs, I also played all the CS games with NG+ save files to have infinite bonding points so got through all those scenes as well, but it's still a long fucking game even if you just go in the critical path.

What I will definitely say is DO rest before Reverie. Character overload gets worse in 4 and in Reverie it hits it's peak (though to a degree it manages it better).

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

That aside, I'd say you are fine to go straight into 4 since 3 was an ending that really asks you to keep on trucking. But be warned, 4 is a fucking long one. According to steam, I spent 116 hours in CS3 and 140 in CS4, I do tend to take my time and am one one of the nutcases that talks to all the NPCs, I also played all the CS games with NG+ save files to have infinite bonding points so got through all those scenes as well, but it's still a long fucking game even if you just go in the critical path.

Damn, Rixia already had huge tits in the original, looking forward to her. In terms of relationships she managed to feel the most appropriate romantic relationship to Lloyd, while Rean has far more going on with Towa than Alisa.

I thought 4 would be shorter considering getting Ash went by super quickly. This time I'm playing without a guide for side quests since at least they are finally marked on the map. Annoyingly I didn't get the card game achievement in 3 because I missed a character, ditto having restaurants cycle through recipes caused me to lose a few. At least you get some leeway for getting the rank bonuses. End game Rean could have probably solo'd bosses by himself.

 

[ShitLurker]

Damn, Rixia already had huge tits in the original, looking forward to her. In terms of relationships she managed to feel the most appropriate romantic relationship to Lloyd, while Rean has far more going on with Towa than Alisa.

From the Crossbell gals Rixia is definitely the most interesting, though her backstory being an intimate event on Azure that a lot of players won't even see is horseshit. Ellie is oh so much the girl next door, nothing too impressive from a narrative standpoint, but she is basically acting as Kea's mother at this point. Noel... is just kind of there... never really got to appreciate her too much... And Tio is best little sis.

On the Cold Steel waifus, bring up the topic again when you are done with 4.

I thought 4 would be shorter considering getting Ash went by super quickly. This time I'm playing without a guide for side quests since at least they are finally marked on the map. Annoyingly I didn't get the card game achievement in 3 because I missed a character, ditto having restaurants cycle through recipes caused me to lose a few. At least you get some leeway for getting the rank bonuses. End game Rean could have probably solo'd bosses by himself.

I honestly can't remember where all the time went. There was a lot of "oh, ok, so there was more to that". Also, definitely pay attention to optional field bosses for this one.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

On the Cold Steel waifus, bring up the topic again when you are done with 4.

I wanted to joke that I hope it's not The 800 year old vampire loli or the cat, and now the cat turned into a girl...
Definitely liking the faster pace of the fourth game and I hope it keeps past saving Rean episode.

Edit: Finally finished fragments, Jesus Christ that was a lot of boss battles. Pretty satisfying though, Duval is pretty cute too. Now to grind Marlins for quartz tor an hour.

 

[Altina]

Trails Through Daybreak announced, summer 2024. If you're reading this and have wanted to get into the series but have felt too overwhelmed by its enormity to do so, this is a legitimate place to start.

Yes one of the best girls Fie will be returning, exicted.

 

[ShitLurker]

Yes one of the best girls Fie will be returning, exicted.

Seems like also Renne should be doing a comeback as well, I do hope I get a cameo from best wandering witch, though not getting my hopes too up.

 

[Altina]

Seems like also Renne should be doing a comeback as well, I do hope I get a cameo from best wandering witch, though not getting my hopes too up.

Yes she is another favourite, the reviews have been very positive from the JP release. I have been itching to play from I finished Reverie ( I would also love a WW return pls Falcom). Get your shit together with faster localisation NISA.

 

[Fcret]

Got Zero/Azure on PS5. I started CS1 years ago but only played for like an hour, and I also got CS2 since they were both on sale.

I also have all three Sky games from GOG. No real way to play them at the moment because the only computer I currently have is an Apple Silicon Mac but if I ever get around to getting a Steam deck or something, they'll be in my backlog.

All of this is to say that I hope there's enough sunk-cost for me to jump into this shit. Gonna start with Zero.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I got to the final chapter in 4 and it's pretty underwhelming. 3 ended in a pretty brutal way and 4 does its best to reverse everything in it. All the characters I thought were dead are alive, a character that explicitly said to be dead is actually alive and a character that died in front of you is in a spirit form so she might as well be alive, I wouldn't be surprised by Crow remaining alive by the end through some magic bullshit at this point, and it's clear there are no stakes anymore. I also HATE how plot points like Sharron killing Alicia's dad were retconned so she acted in self defence, holy shit, characters can do bad shit and atone for it. The Emperor also doing nothing to avert the war is also annoying since it feels like the writer wants the "evil Imperial" design but want to have the family and the princess as dindus because god forbid some moral complexity. Another trope that I fucking hate and shows up constantly is having characters see events in HDTV to give their opinion on a situation, just fucking lazy writing when scenes already have way too many characters standing.

Character relations also took a hit, pretty much the entirety of Class 7 had their plot arcs finished and the game doesn't add anything. Romantic relations are only two scenes, and you can't romance Duvali or the Cat, which is bullshit. Interpersonal relationships are also boring, by now I just skim any non main plot text because it just feels like filler "hey this character is similar to me in X way". I also still don't get Rean having relationship with the princess besides being one of the biggest gary sues in gaming.

Also I hate bosses getting a full stagger bar mid combat, it's just annoying and a shit fix for a bad design. Delay reducing orders are still broken as shit, though at least it seems harder to lock bosses into infinite stagger.

It's not that the game isn't fun, but holy shit is the issues starting to compound by now and the combat doesn't really do anything new with the combat system. It's pretty much the definition of sunk cost fallacy.

Edit: Another weird thing in the game is that it looks like it had a massive rewrite. Rean has a mask in the opening movie, and the whole shared dream in the start suggest there were plans for something else only for a lot safer option to be chosen instead.

 

[ShitLurker]

I got to the final chapter in 4 and it's pretty underwhelming. 3 ended in a pretty brutal way and 4 does its best to reverse everything in it.

Yeeeeeah, once I read your post about the ending of 3, I knew you would hate this shit.

4 is honestly a mess, the curse is bullshit and is used as a copout instead of having people have firm convictions on either side of the conflict. The harem devours everything, there was something cute happening between Juna and Kurt, but the Harem train devours that shit. The harem being a thing ruined so many characters potential progressions. You can also see how there are so many characters they don't know what to do with them even if relevant (Laura's dad is "dead", yet she is still "swords", no real sensation of the impact it should have and so on). And yeah, I imagine that initially the idea is that Rean would be an active antagonist but that got nixed. And yes, that nobody seems to die utterly kills stakes, it's when I just accepted this was One Piece in those terms, so instead of Ace, only Loewe is perpetually dead.

It did give me some closure and I did have fun with it and enjoy the ending, but I'd say CS4 is why I consider it the weakest of the 3 sagas and it's the sort of game that the more you think about it the worse it gets. Also, as you have noticed, the mechanics are breaking at the seams, have 3 spellcasters with Rean and spam the quick cast order and you can rack up insane amounts of damage with the lowest level (yet fastest) spells and the game still can't deal with evasion tanks outside of SCrafts. In Reverie they don't even bother trying to hard and you just have to enjoy destroying it.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Yeeeeeah, once I read your post about the ending of 3, I knew you would hate this shit.

4 is honestly a mess, the curse is bullshit and is used as a copout instead of having people have firm convictions on either side of the conflict. The harem devours everything, there was something cute happening between Juna and Kurt, but the Harem train devours that shit. The harem being a thing ruined so many characters potential progressions. You can also see how there are so many characters they don't know what to do with them even if relevant (Laura's dad is "dead", yet she is still "swords", no real sensation of the impact it should have and so on). And yeah, I imagine that initially the idea is that Rean would be an active antagonist but that got nixed. And yes, that nobody seems to die utterly kills stakes, it's when I just accepted this was One Piece in those terms, so instead of Ace, only Loewe is perpetually dead.

It did give me some closure and I did have fun with it and enjoy the ending, but I'd say CS4 is why I consider it the weakest of the 3 sagas and it's the sort of game that the more you think about it the worse it gets. Also, as you have noticed, the mechanics are breaking at the seams, have 3 spellcasters with Rean and spam the quick cast order and you can rack up insane amounts of damage with the lowest level (yet fastest) spells and the game still can't deal with evasion tanks outside of SCrafts. In Reverie they don't even bother trying to hard and you just have to enjoy destroying it.

I had a some time today to play and finished the game. I don't like when the games forces you to use all characters, though at least the true final boss is easy as shit with how broken some bonus characters and their orders are, and the final boss you can just magic/ultimates to get to the next phase.

There isn't a lot to add besides that whole curse thing really fucking with the plot as a justification why everyone dindu nuffing, so fuck personal responsibility. It doesn't help that as long as you don't kill a named character you are treated as completely redeemable no matter how monstrous your actions are. It's amazing how NPCs (including townfolk) end up having more character development than the main characters because god forbid Rean isn't the center of the universe, he even gets a heroic sacrifice Jesus scene in the normal end just to tick off all the power fantasy requirements and then a happy ending (though I accidentally spoiled myself on Reverie that the normal ending has a continuation, don't know if it's some fragment like it was in Sky 3, or there is some time fuckery going around). Also when the fuck did Alisa's father die, wasn't he just posessed? And I didn't even realize that Osborne died after beating his knight.

Another issue in the series is that the combat feels massively less tactical (especially as you progress and get more broken), so plot line boss rush feels samey and uninteresting as you usually don't even get to the gimmick.

I hope the next series will be less Light Novel tier and will focus more on a small batch of characters, but that's just being optimistic.

Also I keep being reminded every game that Toval exists and he is such a forgettable character.

 

[ShitLurker]

There isn't a lot to add besides that whole curse thing really fucking with the plot as a justification why everyone dindu nuffing, so fuck personal responsibility. It doesn't help that as long as you don't kill a named character you are treated as completely redeemable no matter how monstrous your actions are. It's amazing how NPCs (including townfolk) end up having more character development than the main characters because god forbid Rean isn't the center of the universe, he even gets a heroic sacrifice Jesus scene in the normal end just to tick off all the power fantasy requirements and then a happy ending (though I accidentally spoiled myself on Reverie that the normal ending has a continuation, don't know if it's some fragment like it was in Sky 3, or there is some time fuckery going around). Also when the fuck did Alisa's father die, wasn't he just posessed? And I didn't even realize that Osborne died after beating his knight.

Agreed for the most part. Rean truly is the most gary stu of gary stus and that hurts the narrative hard when everybody can't stop fawning over him. Like I said, I did enjoy my time with the series, but Cold Steel is a step down from Sky and crossbell for sure. As for Alisa's father, it's an honest to god clusterfuck, in Reverie I finally understood it, basically Black Alberich posseses a member of the Gnomes, turns out it was Alisa's father's turn and that's where conveniently Sharon came in for the kill. Clearly she failed though she thought she didn't at that point in time and though the father is in there somewhere, Black Alberich has supplanted him. In summary, he is an incredibly lame villian and a lot smaller of a threat for what I expected from the eternal leader of the Gnomes.

As for Osborne, I hate that he did everything for a good reason and how fucking convoluted his plan is. Though there are some scenes in Reverie that made it a bit more palatable. But it's such a letdown from his first introduction in Sky as well as Lechter (my god, Lechter always feels like so much wasted potential, Claire the same to a degree) who seemed like a terrifying duo out for political and military clout for their nation.

Cold Steel was kind of fucked from the outset with too many characters though. I've already sperged about this in another post in the thread, but it would have been miles better if the original Class 7 lost Machias (merged into Alisa), Laura (merged into Jusis) and made Elliot and Gaius normal students from other clases (and no, Gaius does not get a fucking Stigma, the professor is all the church contacts you need). That suddenly removes some of the bloat. The other is that there is no harem, in my fanfic Emma would be the chosen lady (also, the fucking cat is just a cat that Roselia or Emma can possess to expand their influence) since it always seemed like she should have been more involved, but that would break the harem balance so they gave half of Emma's character to the cat. But I can accept Alisa still being the leading lady, I just want a single one to avoid so much character development being frozen in ice just in case a player did a decision last game.

Another issue in the series is that the combat feels massively less tactical (especially as you progress and get more broken), so plot line boss rush feels samey and uninteresting as you usually don't even get to the gimmick.

The system just has too many moving gears now. Reverie you will break in record time, I am keen on seeing how Kuro just resets everything mechanics wise. But yeah, don't expect anything too amazing from Reverie gameplay wise, you will feel powerful as fuck though when you basically put monstrous enemies into perpetual "no turn for you" locks.

I hope the next series will be less Light Novel tier and will focus more on a small batch of characters, but that's just being optimistic.

I'm still not sure if I'll wait for the official translation or just go with the patch in a couple of months, depends on my backlog, if I do dive into Kuro, I'll report here though.

Also I keep being reminded every game that Toval exists and he is such a forgettable character.

Yeeeeeah. I never read Carnelia so I never got that feel for "oh, it's Toval!" and then I read the manga he was on after the fact and those were alright. But he feels like the favorite character from one of the minor devs who gets to be in the background but not really do that much. He also shows the curse of Kiseki that if everybody has a badass title, they mean fucking nothing, because the Zero Artisan doesn't seem that impressive in the grand scheme of things when fucking Fie has a badass nickname and is half his age. I do expect him to finally get some attention if we ever get a church focus again. I really want a game centered in Arteria where Kevin is playable again and we go a lot deeper into the other members of the church (and reaffirm how boring Gaius is)

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Alberich

This reminds me that they did a literal "Han shot first" retcon so Sharon is innocent, that was so lame. Ditto Claire's uncle was under the curse because that was somehow in the same range as starting a war.

Osborne

The whole curse plot point annihilated all the cool shit about him. It was cool he was a reasonable imperialist that managed to politick is way into being the defacto secondary government. I don't even get if his stated goal in the third game was true or just a way to motivate the party in the usual convoluted anime 4D chess fashion.

I also want to mention the whole vampire subplot that seemed to suggest Rean was some Dhamphir (as if he needed more unique aspects) but it was entirely dropped for Rean channeling the curse somehow and that insanely retarded transplanted heart plot point.

Cold Steel was kind of fucked from the outset with too many characters though

It's so weird that 3 actually managed to nail it with the smaller cast only to go back to its comfort zone. It felt like the Avengers syndrome with needing to show off everyone as if people would be pissy if a character had just a cameo. The worse part was the 15 minute war scene you couldn't fast forward, there's a lot of showing off that doesn't contribute to anything.

He also shows the curse of Kiseki that if everybody has a badass title, they mean fucking nothing,

That's generic Light Novel writing, everyone has like 3 names depending on who's talking. Was funny when I started watching the final season of Shakugan no Shana and remembered how cringy it is.

Edit: Also I want to call Total Fujoshi Death with reading tvtropes about the game (a thing I should stop doing honestly) and literally every time romance is mentioned they mention how Rean x Crow is better, despite the two having no romance and Crow being a terrible person.

 

[AWarmToiletSeat]

There's a lot I could say about the Cold Steel arc. But, I think the fundamental issue is Osborne.

Spoiler

He has to fill two contradicting roles; he needs to be an imposing force cabable of world rending mayhem, but he can't intersect too much with Ouroboros or anything else connected to the greater, overarching story. As a result, everything involving him just feels like wasted time; which compounds further with all of the major writing mistakes in CS 3 and ESPECIALLY 4. CS 2 had a brief opportunity to really do something with Rean, but they just doubled back on pretty much everything he had going for him. Which, again, adds to the issue of Cold Steel feeling like wasted time. You spend 4, kind of 5, games beating a villain of zero consequence, nobody learned anything, and everything is exactly the way it was before it started.

 

[Ilikeoreos]

As much as I enjoyed Cold Steel, I there were a lot of times where I had a hard time wrapping my head around how morally ambiguous some of the characters could be. Maybe it's because I'm a simpelton whose used to traditional "good vs. evil" tropes and whatnot. But the thing that really confused me were things like Osborne pretty much outright stating that he had evil intentions at the end of CSIII when IV showed that wasn't the case. Some of the things that Crow says at the end of CSI also kinda have that issue, it pretty much feels like they retconned the directions they wanted to take those characters in, especially in the case of Osborne.

That and the fact that it feels like all the female characters were designed by coomers - I don’t want to sound like one of those people whose offended by everything, I just miss the days when that kind of stuff was more nuanced. Also do get me started on all the in-universe shipping between Rean and his Adopted sister

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Maybe it's because I'm a simpelton whose used to traditional "good vs. evil" tropes and whatnot. But the thing that really confused me were things like Osborne pretty much outright stating that he had evil intentions at the end of CSIII when IV showed that wasn't the case. Some of the things that Crow says at the end of CSI also kinda have that issue, it pretty much feels like they retconned the directions they wanted to take those characters in, especially in the case of Osborne.

Basically the rule in the series has is that as long as you didn't murder a named character you are redeemable, even if your actions have directly caused the deaths of thousands. It's especially bad with Shirley, who several times kills soldiers and attacks a public gathering to fuck with Rixia, but still treated as wacky girl next door. And Crow who's actions started a massive civil war.

 

[ShitLurker]

As much as I enjoyed Cold Steel, I there were a lot of times where I had a hard time wrapping my head around how morally ambiguous some of the characters could be. Maybe it's because I'm a simpelton whose used to traditional "good vs. evil" tropes and whatnot. But the thing that really confused me were things like Osborne pretty much outright stating that he had evil intentions at the end of CSIII when IV showed that wasn't the case. Some of the things that Crow says at the end of CSI also kinda have that issue, it pretty much feels like they retconned the directions they wanted to take those characters in, especially in the case of Osborne.

I loved it as well, but definitely, game feels like it got rewrites while the saga advanced, biggest clue how the CS4 opening anime cinematic had nothing to do with what happened. Osborne redemption and the curse in general were horrible solutions and seemed like a bob and weave to avoid the heavier parts of the discussion of what happens when your nation literally gets fractured in half by their ideologues and convictions.

That and the fact that it feels like all the female characters were designed by coomers - I don’t want to sound like one of those people whose offended by everything, I just miss the days when that kind of stuff was more nuanced. Also do get me started on all the in-universe shipping between Rean and his Adopted sister

I hate SJW shit as much as anyone, but the harem is absolute cancer. So many characters end up absolutely locked out from any growth due to the Rean cock vortex. Sarah likes older gentleman and is trying to get into Victor's pants? Some fun hijinks with Laura panicking at a possible new mother if Victor is keen on it? NOPE! Now she wantes ASHEEEEN COOOOCK (imagine it with Boogie's voice). Juna and Kurt have a kind of quite budding thing? NOPE! Fuck you Kurt! no cute Crossbell tomboy gf! now go back to your swords and feeling inadequate about your position in the family! And so many other examples.

And that's avoiding the creepier scenarios, Rean at least seems "sensible" in telling the younger girls to wait a bit longer and so on and looks a bit dense when it comes to his fucking Sister (not related tehe) wanting to get into his pants, but devs knew very much what they were doing and what they are giving a nudge and a wink when somebody picks bloody Altina as their waifu... And yes, I know Joshua and Estelle were also brother and sister (not related tehe) but it felt a lot more organic there (and Joshua came in a bit older into the scene as well).

But Cold Steel in general has a bad case of the Garu Stu where everything spins around Rean. Estelle and Lloyd certainly didn't feel like that.

Basically the rule in the series has is that as long as you didn't murder a named character you are redeemable, even if your actions have directly caused the deaths of thousands. It's especially bad with Shirley, who several times kills soldiers and attacks a public gathering to fuck with Rixia, but still treated as wacky girl next door. And Crow who's actions started a massive civil war.

Yeah, it follows Shounen logic 100%, Vegeta's everywhere, though it's not that new, Mariabelle is constantly talked about in not particularly hostile terms even though she's a treacherous bitch and you already touched on how Shirley is a nutcase, at least her dad is just a merc that operates on merc logic, Shirley is just nuts.