The Sequel to Subverting Expectations: Meta Media, Multiverses, Memberberries and Nostalgia Bait - A New Trend for 2022 (Spiderman and Matrix Spoilers within, be Warned)

How Many Times Will They Replicate the Story-Telling (Not Monetary) Success of No Way Home?

  • Once

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Twice

    Votes: 3 3.6%
  • Thrice

    Votes: 4 4.8%
  • 3 to 5

    Votes: 3 3.6%
  • Greater Than 5

    Votes: 17 20.5%
  • Every Time They Try

    Votes: 35 42.2%
  • Never Again

    Votes: 10 12.0%
  • No Way home Sucked, So they Still Didn't

    Votes: 11 13.3%

  • Total voters
    83

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A little over two years ago, I wrote an essay on a trend that was taking over Hollywood and media in general. A device known as 'subverting expectations'. Generally, this is done to 'surprise' an audience by giving them a 'twist' by people who think they're smarter than they are. While always being around in media and literature, it came to the forefront of pop-culture with Game of Thrones, Attack on Titan and perhaps most egregiously, Star Wars: The Last Jedi. Now, I'm not going to rehash that entire thread, if you're interested you can check it out here: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/subverting-expectations-the-megathread.56952/

While this technique hasn't fully died out, as there are still plenty of creators who fucking hate their audience *coughs* Kevin Smith *coughs*, the entire writing device is rapidly losing popularity due to the massive amount of money, respect and franchise wrecks its left behind. That's one reason, but the second reason on the horizon is this. When I wrote my essay on subverting expectations, films had kind of slowed down, thanks to the oncoming pandemic. Considering that 2019 was when I wrote the article and now a new phenomenon was on the horizon, I figured to catch it by the balls.

And that is, Spiderman: No Way Home is the First Film Since 2019 to hit $1 Billion. Money has been shit out in the air for an absolutely fucking abysmal few years at the movies. Agendas are out the fucking windows. Its time for some FUCKING MONEY. But before that, we should discuss why Spiderman: No Way Home works in my opinion. Why Hollywood, games, books and other media won't learn and a suitable contrast to it. So we're going to do the good example: Spiderman: No Way Home and Matrix: Resurrections. Both have the benefits of coming out rather recently and have similar ideas. So we're going to do a comparison of why one works, why one doesn't and why, generally, this will probably be the only time it works.

So, fair warning, there will be major spoilers for both the new Matrix and Spiderman. I'm not fucking up the flow, so its in the subtitle and right here. If you're ok with this, lets fucking go.


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So, Spider-Man: No Way Home is a very good film that works in ways that it really shouldn't, especially it being a modern superhero film. There are several reasons why. So I'll go over them in no particular order:

The Last Spiderman Film is Actually the First Spiderman Film

This is probably the best reason why. Functionally, a lot of the complaints about the previous two Spiderman films is actually that Tom Holland is just 'Tony Stark Jr.' He gets to go on an adventure with him, gets a slick spider suit, gets access to all this Stark Tech and generally doesn't do anything on his own. There's no real parallels to him growing as a character, learning about sacrifice or consequences. That isn't the case here. With his identity revealed, he gets greedy and causes the very problems that result in the movie precisely because he doesn't understand. Spiderman's juvenile wish to have his cake and eat it too parallels the origin story where the guy stealing the money isn't his problem. Other people, the consequences of what he is doing, and his own greed brings about the entire situation he experiences.

Its actually brilliant, because we're used to origin stories being the first film, but truthfully its this one. Spiderman is greedy and wants everyone to remember who he is so he can keep his life identical while removing the consequences for someone he fought dying (which again, plays into the movie). This is a complete rehash of the Spiderman origin story, but in a way that's so fresh and original, you barely even notice until the iconic scenes hit you in the face. His carelessness and wanting his pie and eating it too result in an interdimensional rift which fucks up Strange's spell, so that other Spiderman villains come into this world.

Spiderman, still being naive, doesn't fully understand the ramifications. May herself starts a charity to help the mentally ill and disenfranchised, and low and behold William DeFoe (basically a schizophrenic) finds May and asks for her help. This leads to Spiderman trying to help all of the villians and cure them of their maladays. Meanwhile, Strange has a Mcguffin which will fix the spell and send everyone home (and to their deaths, as the villains). There's a fight, and Defoe ends up killing Aunt May, in a Parallel to how he was killed (impaled by the hover board). Here May insists that Peter was doing the right thing by helping the villains. That he wasn't wrong in wanting to not send them to die, and then she utters the iconic line: "With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility".

While it could have been a shitty rehash, here it makes sense. Peter was acting responsible. He wanted to help these people. That was his responsibility, no matter how it ended up. The line serves the themes of the film. And it is also used differently. In previous films, it was an admonishment, a shaming. Here, its being used to uplift Peter in a way. So we're seeing it used differently and this is where we're seeing the development of Peter's Character for the first time. This is especially prevalent in the ending where Strange wipes the memory of Spiderman and Parker from everyone on Earth, effectively resetting him to nothing and being forced to rely on his own skills. We see him making his own costume and using his own resources for the first time, marking his growth and making him truly independent.

Nostalgia serves the Plot, the Plot does not serve the Nostalgia. See Also: Reversal of Meta

This is especially important. In the context and themes of the film there's the undercurrent of responsibility, consequences and the difficulty of staying pure. The villains dying in the previous films were basically the way hero movies were done. The villain simply dies, move to next villain, with no real pathos. Here, Anthony Garfield and Toby McGuire give their reasons as to why these villains died. Because they lost people they loved, they got bitter, stopped pulling their punches and they died because of it. And they themselves have regretted it ever since. Again, notice how Toby and Garfield's Peter Parker's play into the themes of the story: Responsibility and Consequence, as well as redemption. They're not just here to go "REMEMBER THAT", they're here because they're serving the larger themes of the narrative. And that they themselves are each individual characters with their own personality and motivations.

Redemption really is a big part of the plot. Like Garfield not being able to save Gwen Stacy, which haunts him. There's really a short touching scene where Holland isn't able to save MJ, but Garfield does and he has this bittersweet look on his face and he's about to cry. There's also a point where Holland is going to repeat the mistakes of the previous Spidermen and attempt to kill the Green Goblin, but McGuire stops him. Holland isn't perfect and he is about to be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the previous two, but is stopped. That redemption for all of them is important. Once more, the plot is served.

Meta but No Fourth Wall Breaks and the Multiverse Done Right

There's very little to take you out of this movie. There are certainly some meta jokes (Jamie Foxx mentions a black Spiderman, clearly referring to Morales and there's a little bit shitting on Anthony Garfield about how he never got a third movie in jest) but the important point is that they never take you OUT of the movie. The movie always wants you to be there. It wants you to remain focused, engaged and entertained. There's also very little exploration of 'what are they doing now', because the movie isn't primarily about the older Spidermen. Just a few cryptic hints, enough to be relevant, but nothing distracting. Mcguire and Garfield and serving the plot and their stories do not get in the way of the plot or themes with unnecessary bullshit.

The multiverse here actually feels real. That there are alternate universes with similar themes and different events. Of course there are a few little call backs and a nice couple of jokes here and there referencing the older movies but the important point here is that they're used very sparingly and only when important (Ned wondering if there's an alternate version of himself and asks Toby if he had a best friend and he gets kind of down when he says he did, and that he died in his arms) or Alfred Molina admiring the Arc Reactor in reference to the power source he was trying to create. These tidbits make you feel like the multiverse is alive and it isn't just forcing shit on you.

In the end: Why does it work?

Why this works is relatively simple: Everything in the movie is in service to the story and thematic elements. When major lines are used, they're done creatively, differently and done in important ways. Even DeFoe's "You know, I'm something of a scientist myself" isn't portrayed as humorous or anything, but has the same foreboding malice of the original delivery. This isn't nostalgia bait. This is a movie about learning that there are consequences to things, that you can't have your cake and eat it too, and sometimes even if you do the right thing, bad things will happen and you can't lose sight of the bigger picture, even if your emotions overwhelm you, or you will have regrets and do things that you will regret for the rest of your life. And essentially, Holland is still center stage. Its his story. Its both a conclusion and a beginning. Because he's matured, he doesn't need anyone, he understands his place and the nature of things and is fully self reliant.

As you can tell, I thoroughly enjoyed the film. I think it is honestly the best superhero film since Infinity War (which I enjoyed more than endgame). It honestly destroys all current Marvel offerings and they're going to have to work REALLY hard to compete.

Now, I've went over why Spiderman works. Why does the Matrix not? I'm going to go over this briefly.

The Matrix Doesn't Work Because It is Pointless, Has No Plot, and is only created to make profit off of Nostalgia and Serves No Purpose. Its ideas are half realized and the story-telling is poppy dog shit.

There, that about sums it up. So where do I think things are going to go? I think that no lessons will be learned from Spiderman, and that nostalgia-bait and "REMEMBER THIS?!" will be done constantly. And now everyone, including Marvel and DC are going to try to ressurect old properties and films as nostalgia bait without understanding why Spiderman works. Its going to be a fucking hilarious disaster and another deluge of pure shit. Well, at least its better than the pseduo-intellectual 'subverting expectations' trash.
 
I feel that Star Wars Sequel Trilogy fits into how it doesn't work with how TFA is a rehash of the first movie and basically trying to give nostalgiabait with the old actors. It doesn't work since the story is so barebones and doesn't add anything that it relied on sequels to carry it, which ended up failing.

Rise of Skywalker also fits this since they tried to use nostalgia bait to get people to like it and bring things up that only existed to make the audience go "I 'Member" with prime examples being Palpatine's return because it was a safe choice and he was a beloved villain, and the stupid scene of Chewbacca being given a medal. It didn't help that like TFA, the plot was a watered down retread of Return of the Jedi.
 
Thing is, you really can't replicate the No Way Home formula.
Think about it:
What other IP is still popular and beloved but also has 20 years worth of content and is able to bring back everyone involved in that content?
X-Men comes to mind but Marvel isn't even planning on doing anything X-Men related other than some shitty cartoon, they would have to make that movie while Stewart and McKellen are still alive, it won't work without them.
Batman maybe, everyone except Adam West and Heath Ledger are still alive (well, everyone that people care for).
I guess they're trying to do something Harry Potter related as well.
What else though? Nothing comes to mind.

No Way Home could only be done with Spider-Man.
Will they try to copy it's formula?
Of course but they will fail.
Maybe some piece of art will slip through the cracks but probably not.
 
I know you said you wouldn't rehash the original thread but there is something I wanted to take a friendly jab at you for:
While AoT isn’t finished, the creator apparently loved Game of Thrones Season 8, which means he gets an erection from franchise-destroying elements. I’d recommend getting involved only to laugh at the resulting fanbase implosion.

:story:
Holy shit, you weren't kidding. I'm not even into anime but the wreckage from the AoT finale was noticeable everywhere when it happened. God damn, for a fan of the series that one must still smart so much that you have trouble sitting down.
 
Thing is, you really can't replicate the No Way Home formula.
Think about it:
What other IP is still popular and beloved but also has 20 years worth of content and is able to bring back everyone involved in that content?
X-Men comes to mind but Marvel isn't even planning on doing anything X-Men related other than some shitty cartoon, they would have to make that movie while Stewart and McKellen are still alive, it won't work without them.
Batman maybe, everyone except Adam West and Heath Ledger are still alive (well, everyone that people care for).
I guess they're trying to do something Harry Potter related as well.
What else though? Nothing comes to mind.

No Way Home could only be done with Spider-Man.
Will they try to copy it's formula?
Of course but they will fail.
Maybe some piece of art will slip through the cracks but probably not.
I mean, No Way Home works because you have movies that were basically done before the formula and you can integrate those reasons into the plot. You are right, it is very much lightning in a bottle, but people are like "ALL BATMANS IN FLASH LOLZOL" and shit like that, so people are 100% going to try and mimic this formula.
Did you watch the last Spiderman film?
I did indeed and I enjoyed it.
I feel that Star Wars Sequel Trilogy fits into how it doesn't work with how TFA is a rehash of the first movie and basically trying to give nostalgiabait with the old actors. It doesn't work since the story is so barebones and doesn't add anything that it relied on sequels to carry it, which ended up failing.

Rise of Skywalker also fits this since they tried to use nostalgia bait to get people to like it and bring things up that only existed to make the audience go "I 'Member" with prime examples being Palpatine's return because it was a safe choice and he was a beloved villain, and the stupid scene of Chewbacca being given a medal. It didn't help that like TFA, the plot was a watered down retread of Return of the Jedi.
Its very similar to that and yes, Star Wars is lately completely consumed with "REMMEMBER THIS REMEMBER PLEASE FORGET THE TLJ, REMEMBER". So Star Wars is going to be trying something like this eventually as well in my estimation.
I know you said you wouldn't rehash the original thread but there is something I wanted to take a friendly jab at you for:


:story:
Holy shit, you weren't kidding. I'm not even into anime but the wreckage from the AoT finale was noticeable everywhere when it happened. God damn, for a fan of the series that one must still smart so much that you have trouble sitting down.
Yeah its fine, we can comment here. But yeah, I had no clue what was awaiting the end of that series. If you didn't take my advice, you REALLY missed out.
 
Not only is Star Wars TLJ consumed with memories I feel like they are ACTIVELY against father figures, which was Lucas's most important themes.
The reason Leia worked as a "strong female character" is because of how she carried herself.
I feel like Ray is a whole wad of nothing.
To Spiderman though.
My favorite part was the interplay between 3 certain actors.
Cumberbatch is also great as well.
 
While there are definitely a large amount of examples of nostalgiabaiting(with more sure to follow), I’ll take a nostalgic wank-fest over “actually you’re show was super problematic, so we changed it to be different and you’d better thank us our your a bigot.”

Memberberris is cheap, but at least I’m not being spit in the face and told to like it.

Obviously this does not apply to ever nostalgia bait/subversion of expectations, but you get my point.
 
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What I wish studios would learn is that Spider-man succeeded by really understanding the hand it was dealt and playing it well. I'm not saying this is easy, but it is fundamental. It seems like so many modern franchise movies stumble simply because they don't understand what it is they have in their hands. Spider-man had a unique situation it smartly combined with solid storytelling to create a success. Other franchises should take stock of what hand they have, of their own unique situation, and tell a solid story with that.

What I'm saying here shouldn't be revolutionary. This seems like something you learn in a 100 level film making classes, or even when making kino with friends in your back yard: use what you have. If you have $20,000 you make a $20,000 movie. If you have Spider-man you make a Spider-man movie. If you have something else, you don't try to make Spider-man again with different characters, you make a movie with what you have.

But they aren't going to learn the lesson they should learn. They'll look across the Hollywood blackjack table and see Spider-man saying "stand" and so they go "well I guess I should stand" when they have a 7 and Spider-man had a 20. Hopefully my analogy isn't too drawn out.
 
Interesting thing about Matrix Resurrections, at least in my eyes, was that it was trying (read, trying) to use its nostalgia to make some kind of meta-narrative on the franchise. Like, this is why people love the films, how one's perception of it differs from person to person, and how trying to keep it locked into a certain state is damaging. The problem is that it is too muddled in its execution to really be effective.
 
There's been some gabbering about this in the movienight chat for the last year, but the theory I tend to lean heavily on is that, up until fairly recently, most people's experiences in life were based on real events that were actually quite spectacular. The great Depression, World War 2, big disasters, smaller conflicts, the pervasive threat of nuclear war, all very compelling human experiences that, though they don't necessarily teach you anything, they're still likely to very strongly influence your worldview. Modern writers were mostly raised with pop culture forming a disproportionate part of their upbringing instead of any real experiences. I know a lot of them are sheltered rich kids and other assorted assholes who already have a distorted perspective, but this is a universal problem.

Modern writing is filled with references, rehashes and cliches because its literally all some people know. There was an old article i read some time back, I'll have to find it again, complaining that "modern" movies of the 70s and 80s had stale literary references always referring back to the same cliched books because people read less books than ever before, so the reference would repeat themselves endlessly. Well now we're at a point where most people don't read books, and if they do its always the same pretentious trash nine times out of ten.

Most of the experiences people have in the real world these days is working a shitty retail/office job, spending way too much time in a classroom, or being some kind of shill or attentionwhore, or being some dickhead with an opinion that people listen to because so many people are thoughtless fucking wrecks. For everything that doesn't cover, they fill in the gaps with the media they were saturated with growing up. And as time goes on this process only magnifies as people become less adventurous and more sheltered and have even less to base their lives on.

Most people write what they know, but just about all this generation knows is more media. So on and on the references go, because the writers literally can't do anything else, even if they want to.
 
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Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with using lots of references and nods to other works in your writing. The trick however is to take those elements, and use them to create something that's unique and fresh, not just a regurgitation of things that worked in previous films and the like.
 
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Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with using lots of references and nods to other works in your writing. The trick however is to take those elements, and use them to create something that's unique and fresh, not just a regurgitation of things that worked in previous films and the like.
It’s fine to use, but your story has to carry them, not be carried by them essentially.
 
That's something that I myself tend to struggle with when writing, I admit. So how can the former be done rather than the latter?
If you remove all the references/in-jokes/nostalgia/ect from your work….does the overall themes/basic plot of your story still carry over? Are the ideas still interesting?
 
Ours is an exhausted culture where people are trapped in a Post-Modern spiral of commenting on consoomables, which are themselves commenting on earlier consoomables, and where media companies and audiences have grown fat and lazy . Hence, the lack of originality in everything and the reliance on remakes/reboots. It's also hard not to view all media, past and present, through the modern SJW lens. Even if you don't believe in SJW values, you still find yourself thinking of the many ways that SJWs would be criticizing what you're watching, This is mostly due to the power of social media, and the fear of what the SJW mob would do to you if it caught you in its Eye of Sauron-like gaze and decided to make an example of you. We've gone from a world where media is produced and watched by people who lived through serious world events and lived serious lives, to a world where media is produced by decadent aristocrats and consoomed by pampered proles trapped in a world where they're safe from danger, but are never really allowed to be challenged in any meaningful way.

Modernity is great for medicine and technology, but it pretty much turns every other aspect of life into shit.
 
That's something that I myself tend to struggle with when writing, I admit. So how can the former be done rather than the latter?
I've got an exercise for you.

First, re-write 'The Force Awakens'. You are only to use the themes TFA introduces and the core characters (Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo Renn). You can re-set it in any setting, modern or otherwise. What you are not allowed to do is reference the old trilogy, the old characters or any call backs. Everything must be new. This includes the force, lightsabers, the empire, etc. You can't include ANY of that. Does the story hold up? Can the story work without those references or is it incredibly difficult?

Now, re-write Spiderman: No Way Home. Same concept with core characters (Peter Parker, Aunt May, Dr. Strange, Ned and MJ). However remove everything Marvel, their origins, etc. As with the TFA example, everything except themes and characterization must be new. Keep the thematic elements: Redemption, regret, responsibilities and consequences. Can this story work without any Marvel lore, history, call backs or movies?

You'll find that it is a LOT harder to re-write TFA because the majority of the story is basically just a re-tread and a call back to a New Hope and isn't really an original story and you'll have to work very hard to get away from that. That the themes and references in TFA are extremely difficult to make stand on their own. While it is MUCH easier to re-write No Way Home even under different circumstances, only if you keep the core cast and themes. The setting lore and everything can be different, but the thematic elements hold the story together and you can functionally get the message across. In TFA, its extremely difficult without just copying 'A New Hope.' I mean, theoretically, you can re-write Spiderman: No Way Home without anything supernatural or super-heroic, because its themes, message and tone are all independent of the superhero aspect. It doesn't need the callbacks to work.

You can do this with pretty much anything. Like Arcane. Take Arcane, remove ALL league of legends lore, references, call backs and the setting. Keep a core cast (Jinx, Caitlyn and Vi). Can you tell a similar story? Can you evoke the same emotional pathos? If the answer is yes, then your story can stand on its own. If the answer is no, then your story is relying far too heavily on your references to work properly.

Its a lot easier to do this with already established work than your own, because you can see where all the pieces function and you can get in the head of the writer. Fan-Fiction is laughed at, but you really should treat it like an exercise in a lot of ways. Basic fan-fiction can test your story-telling capabilities in certain ways like if you don't want to worry about a plot, you can copy the plot but alter characterization or do vice-versa. Or test original ideas in established settings. Or just play with it, see how these things work. Or just even get back into the practice of just the mechanical process of writing without the brainstorming. Just take a cinematic or a videogame and just write it as a novel to test out different styles and your flow and grammar. There's nothing wrong with this, because its just an exercise and its a lot easier and less discouraging when you view it this way. Want to see if you can write a fight scene? Take a sequence from John Wick and imagine it as writing instead of film and type it out. Shit like that. These are simple exercise you can do.

Another way you can view it is academics and plagiarism. When we cite a work in academia, we're supposed to put it in our own words. That is, not copy and paste it and put a citation at the end, because that is plagarism. Our own words for the idea we want to express. TFA is functionally plagiarism, while Spiderman: No Way Home is properly referenced and cited.

EDIT:
Also don't be afraid of using Tropes. The worst thing TV Tropes did is convince people they were smart for noticing tropes and thinking they were bad. This is why TV Tropes is retarded. You are not smart for noticing tropes because you cannot fucking write without them. You literally cannot write a single thing without using a trope. A trope is a writing tool. A trope is only a cliché when it is not expounded upon or used incredibly shallowly. Do not be afraid of replicating ideas and scenarios. The thing is to claim them as your own and to fit the themes, context, plot and tone of your work. These are what makes tropes unique to your story. You'll never avoid using them, so don't bother cataloguing them like a fucking retarded autist.

Instead, think of the mood and feeling your work is trying to convey. Think of the themes of the scene you are writing. How do you want the reader to feel? How are the characters feeling? What tone are you going for? Everything needs to build.

EDIT2:
Shit, I really should do a writing 101 course here sometime.
 
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I really think you should. Seriously, all you wrote there was quite eye-opening, while also giving me a whole lot of info for my own writing.
I might make on in Arts and Lit tomorrow or sometime next week, since I'm still sick and my mind is like blegh
 
What are your thoughts on Ghostbusters Afterlife? I thought it was great but some people felt like it relied too much on nostalgia.

In defense of nostalgia though, I think people are too quick to forget how shitty movies got in the latter half of the 1990s and throughout the 2000s, starting in a big way with Independence Day, blockbuster type filmmaking just got largely really dumb and forgettable with not a whole lot of exceptions.

There was a reason people longed to see the return of 1980s properties, it definitely felt like "whatever happened to?" had a lot of potential when by the 2000s it had been years since we had seen most of these franchises.

Nostalgia is only a problem when you fuck it up imo.
 
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