The Sequel to Subverting Expectations: Meta Media, Multiverses, Memberberries and Nostalgia Bait - A New Trend for 2022 (Spiderman and Matrix Spoilers within, be Warned)

[Dom Cruise]

@Secret Asshole

I honestly didn't see Afterlife. I wasn't planning on watching it. Ghostbusters is basically the first film, maybe the second, and the cartoons. I just had no interest in Afterlife or any future continuation of the franchise. For me, Ghostbusters is a completed franchise that I'm not interested in any official extended stories beyond what was done in the cartoons in the 90s and early aughts. So I can't really comment, but I HATE the trend of studios using deceased actor's likenesses in films.

Personally I felt like Ghostbusters still had a ton of potential, especially as it never got a third film that gave us a proper conclusion ala the third Back To The Future film.

Whatever criticisms one can make of Afterlife it's at least a million times better than the 2016 movie and I'm thankful the franchise didn't end on that note.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

@Secret Asshole

Personally I felt like Ghostbusters still had a ton of potential, especially as it never got a third film that gave us a proper conclusion ala the third Back To The Future film.

Whatever criticisms one can make of Afterlife it's at least a million times better than the 2016 movie and I'm thankful the franchise didn't end on that note.

For all of the faults that I think Ghostbusters: Afterlife is guilty of, I do have to say that at least the movie wasn't obnoxious like the 2016 movie. I sincerely believe that the 2016 movie is an unwatchable film. I've yet to see the entire thing, too.

There's a lot of charming moments in Afterlife, in my opinion. And Phoebe was a fantastic main character who was really easy to root for.

Afterlife came across as a "damage control" move from Sony, for sure ... But give me that peace offering over the franchise ending with the 2016 fiasco anyday.

 

[Juan But Not Forgotten]

You know what? After watching this movie I disagree that it's something like the first film, be it original one or a reboot. And even outside of a lot of inconsistencies, it was actually a pretty unique experience, a quite interesting game if you like.

I mean, sadly, we have a lot of movies that use nostalgia after certain franchises or just the 80's, but this one upped the game as high as never before, because in a nutshell this movie is A - the end of Marvel's Spiderman trilogy, B - deconstruction of the cliches about Spiderman, C - ENDLESS SUBVERTING OF EXPECTATIONS, D - the bold attempt at the next step, which is not just a cinematic universe by one studio, but an attempt to connect multiple movies, that were crossed out of existence by reboots, E - the movie itself is a triquell, but at the same time it softly reboots Marvel's Spiderman movies and gives Peter a fresh start, but what's most interesting F - one big of hella love letter to memes and the internet culture around Spiderman, albeit mostly Raimi movies. Looks like a fucking garbage pile and ultimate zoomer movie, but somehow it works, even with all it's flaws acknowledged.

Movies tried this before, like X-men: The days of the future past was a sequel and soft reboot of the franchise, some movies tried to reflect internet culture and the cult around them, like Expendables 2 and some just tried to go full meta, but never before one movie tried to pull so much and actually succeeded in it. The closets thing I can think of is Devil MAy Cry 5, which was one big love letter to the fans and the series, while leaving a hook for a sequel and new series with Nero.

And it's actually impressive at times how it plays with the viewer. I mean, we've got all the people from the Multiverse searching for this Peter Parker, even if they are dead, but where is Eddie Brock? And they subvert this expectation with actually showing him after credits, but it's the wrong Eddie Brock from Sony's "Venom" movies, who has no fucking business being here since he doesn't know who Peter Parker is! It was so dumb and genius at the same time, that I've laughed my ass off.

But the funniest thing is that I expected this movie to be woke as fuck, since the first one was filled with this shit. However, by pure coincidence, I feel like Marvel played itself. I mean, Peter gets FBI on his ass, they can't prove shit and let him go, however, it still has consequences for him and his friends and family. Basically, PETER GOT CANCELED.

So in short it's much more interesting as an example of postmodernism, than actual movie.

 

[The Bovinian Derivative]

Wait what? That can't be real.

I am pretty sure people had the exact same reaction about The Emoji Movie... which for some reason made almost $220 million dollars with a budget of $50 million, and it's top rated review is just the lyrics of Never Gonna Give You Up. Thank you, IMDB.

 

[Notgoodwithusernames]

You know what? After watching this movie I disagree that it's something like the first film, be it original one or a reboot. And even outside of a lot of inconsistencies, it was actually a pretty unique experience, a quite interesting game if you like.

I mean, sadly, we have a lot of movies that use nostalgia after certain franchises or just the 80's, but this one upped the game as high as never before, because in a nutshell this movie is A - the end of Marvel's Spiderman trilogy, B - deconstruction of the cliches about Spiderman, C - ENDLESS SUBVERTING OF EXPECTATIONS, D - the bold attempt at the next step, which is not just a cinematic universe by one studio, but an attempt to connect multiple movies, that were crossed out of existence by reboots, E - the movie itself is a triquell, but at the same time it softly reboots Marvel's Spiderman movies and gives Peter a fresh start, but what's most interesting F - one big of hella love letter to memes and the internet culture around Spiderman, albeit mostly Raimi movies. Looks like a fucking garbage pile and ultimate zoomer movie, but somehow it works, even with all it's flaws acknowledged.

Movies tried this before, like X-men: The days of the future past was a sequel and soft reboot of the franchise, some movies tried to reflect internet culture and the cult around them, like Expendables 2 and some just tried to go full meta, but never before one movie tried to pull so much and actually succeeded in it. The closets thing I can think of is Devil MAy Cry 5, which was one big love letter to the fans and the series, while leaving a hook for a sequel and new series with Nero.

And it's actually impressive at times how it plays with the viewer. I mean, we've got all the people from the Multiverse searching for this Peter Parker, even if they are dead, but where is Eddie Brock? And they subvert this expectation with actually showing him after credits, but it's the wrong Eddie Brock from Sony's "Venom" movies, who has no fucking business being here since he doesn't know who Peter Parker is! It was so dumb and genius at the same time, that I've laughed my ass off.

But the funniest thing is that I expected this movie to be woke as fuck, since the first one was filled with this shit. However, by pure coincidence, I feel like Marvel played itself. I mean, Peter gets FBI on his ass, they can't prove shit and let him go, however, it still has consequences for him and his friends and family. Basically, PETER GOT CANCELED.

So in short it's much more interesting as an example of postmodernism, than actual movie.

Script was probably finished before Kyle Rittenhouse did the lords work but the first third of the movie reminded me of that whole mess especially in the Matt Murdoch scene where he breaks down why the criminal charges against peter are won’t hold up but the real problem will be the court of public opinion.

Hell even though Jameson in this universe is clearly supposed to be a parody of Alex Jones a la the ps4 game the fact that he’s a essentialy a schizophrenic blogger who is picked up by a major media conglomerate giving him a wider reach and more resources to harass Spider-Man resembles how losers like Sarah Jeong end up getting positions in establishment media.

 

[FaramirG]

I think No Way Home is really unique to Spider-Man. If you tried this same setup with Batman, the Batmans would probably kill each other within 10 minutes.

 

[Secret Asshole]

@Secret Asshole

I don't know how much I can say it's meta. Like I usually think of meta as looking at story devices and scenarios within a work rather than the usual referencing the history of a franchise (like in X-Men where Wolvering says that at least he isn't wearing an orange spandex), which is extremely common to Superhero films that like to throw references for the geekier crowd. I also wouldn't really put villains dying as a really central thing in a superhero film, it's not necessarily the norm (for example Loki and Joker) and even attempting to "fix" the villain isn't really new (Harvey Dent). Heck, Man of Steel has sups try to spare the villain only to have his hand forced into killing him.

I guess my problem with saving villains is that if you are going down that it's entirely meaningless if you ignore the fact that it's hard and massively adds up to the hero's responsibility. Going back to the second Nolan Batman film, he couldn't fix Harvey and sparing the Joker makes him culpable for any crime he would do in the future. It's like TLOU2 talking about the cycle of violence - Even if the idea has interesting points to make, if it's done without any real thought into it then what's the point?

I mean, you're talking about a different genre of films, in a different universe with different directors. Rami is much closer to modern Marvel than either Nolan or Snyder. Its apples and oranges, you can't compare the two. Especially since the Batman films are all character driven, as well as the Superman movie. This movie is explicitly not character driven, it is plot driven. You have to look at it for what it is and trying to tell.

The whole thematic point of the movie is fixing mistakes. You're kind of getting lost in the minutiae. The movie flat out tells you the process is unimportant and some of the villains show a desire to be fixed (Osborn, Doc Ok wasn't even in control of himself). I mean, that's a running motif throughout the movie. Its done with plenty of point, I have no idea what you're talking about. It is not about just straight rehabilitation, this isn't a character focused film. It is a plot and thematically focused film, with a secondary emphasis on character.

Expecting the film to go into detail of rehabilitating all those villians characteristically is completely unrealistic. It simply isn't long enough. That's why its telling a larger story about forgiveness, fixing mistakes and doing things differently. It is very much more of a larger picture story than anything character driven.

You know what? After watching this movie I disagree that it's something like the first film, be it original one or a reboot. And even outside of a lot of inconsistencies, it was actually a pretty unique experience, a quite interesting game if you like.

I mean, sadly, we have a lot of movies that use nostalgia after certain franchises or just the 80's, but this one upped the game as high as never before, because in a nutshell this movie is A - the end of Marvel's Spiderman trilogy, B - deconstruction of the cliches about Spiderman, C - ENDLESS SUBVERTING OF EXPECTATIONS, D - the bold attempt at the next step, which is not just a cinematic universe by one studio, but an attempt to connect multiple movies, that were crossed out of existence by reboots, E - the movie itself is a triquell, but at the same time it softly reboots Marvel's Spiderman movies and gives Peter a fresh start, but what's most interesting F - one big of hella love letter to memes and the internet culture around Spiderman, albeit mostly Raimi movies. Looks like a fucking garbage pile and ultimate zoomer movie, but somehow it works, even with all it's flaws acknowledged.

Movies tried this before, like X-men: The days of the future past was a sequel and soft reboot of the franchise, some movies tried to reflect internet culture and the cult around them, like Expendables 2 and some just tried to go full meta, but never before one movie tried to pull so much and actually succeeded in it. The closets thing I can think of is Devil MAy Cry 5, which was one big love letter to the fans and the series, while leaving a hook for a sequel and new series with Nero.

And it's actually impressive at times how it plays with the viewer. I mean, we've got all the people from the Multiverse searching for this Peter Parker, even if they are dead, but where is Eddie Brock? And they subvert this expectation with actually showing him after credits, but it's the wrong Eddie Brock from Sony's "Venom" movies, who has no fucking business being here since he doesn't know who Peter Parker is! It was so dumb and genius at the same time, that I've laughed my ass off.

But the funniest thing is that I expected this movie to be woke as fuck, since the first one was filled with this shit. However, by pure coincidence, I feel like Marvel played itself. I mean, Peter gets FBI on his ass, they can't prove shit and let him go, however, it still has consequences for him and his friends and family. Basically, PETER GOT CANCELED.

So in short it's much more interesting as an example of postmodernism, than actual movie.

I'm not really saying its like any of the first films, I'm saying its like a FIRST Spiderman film. It carries the same motifs, hating spiderman, death of a loved one, letting anger take over...except there's all that history there. Its also a reset because no one knows who spiderman is. In that way its like A first movie, not any of the first movies.

Eddie Brock isn't in the film because Sony and Marvel have a very weird thing going on with Venom, which is why current Eddie Brock isn't from this universe. Its kind of weird, since in the Morbius trailer it SEEMS like he's in the current MCU with vulture, but they mention venom and San Fransisco, so the rights issues are all fucking tangled up.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

@Secret Asshole In regards to the Snyder thing, I think WB hates Snyder due to how his management of the DCEU didn't instantly work out super well and the fact his fans would want what he has rather than what WB wants their movies to be. It gets really stupid given Warner Bros hastily pushed Snyder to be the head of their Cinematic universe as a vain attempt to compete with Marvel among other dumbass desperation attempts (like how they thought green lantern could compete with Iron Man because they thought the only reason people liked Iron Man was for the jet scene)

It also doesn't help all the Synder movies are just Watchmen reskins. You know, the comic that's about the deconstruction of comic book tropes. Even the best character in those movies--Batman--is effectively Thomas Wayne and not all that useful in these kinds of movies.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

@Secret Asshole

I mean, you're talking about a different genre of films, in a different universe with different directors. Rami is much closer to modern Marvel than either Nolan or Snyder. Its apples and oranges, you can't compare the two. Especially since the Batman films are all character driven, as well as the Superman movie. This movie is explicitly not character driven, it is plot driven. You have to look at it for what it is and trying to tell.

The whole thematic point of the movie is fixing mistakes. You're kind of getting lost in the minutiae. The movie flat out tells you the process is unimportant and some of the villains show a desire to be fixed (Osborn, Doc Ok wasn't even in control of himself). I mean, that's a running motif throughout the movie. Its done with plenty of point, I have no idea what you're talking about. It is not about just straight rehabilitation, this isn't a character focused film. It is a plot and thematically focused film, with a secondary emphasis on character.

Expecting the film to go into detail of rehabilitating all those villians characteristically is completely unrealistic. It simply isn't long enough. That's why its telling a larger story about forgiveness, fixing mistakes and doing things differently. It is very much more of a larger picture story than anything character driven.

Fixing mistakes is about as thematic as "fighting evil", just about every struggle based film is fixing mistakes made by either the hero or someone before him. If there is something in the theme that is unique to the MCU or Superhero films then I don't get what it is.

And you definitely can't argue that something is a theme and then argue that it's unreasonable for the film to actually expand on what it means and it's implications. Especially as the idea of responsibility is brought up, only for the main character have no way to be held accontable toward potentially sparing murderers in different universes.

If you want to argue the main point of the thread is a dumb popcorn flick that has some nice meta moments then it's fine. But then it doesn't really merit the wall of text in the start.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

It also doesn't help all the Synder movies are just Watchmen reskins. You know, the comic that's about the deconstruction of comic book tropes. Even the best character in those movies--Batman--is effectively Thomas Wayne and not all that useful in these kinds of movies.

Yep like the Snyder films are ass, but WB is definitely retarded by making him into their Kevin Feige and shocked that Snyder decided to not just be quippy Marvel films to the point they just replaced him with Joss Whedon to make the most rushed and underwhelming superhero movie in the past decade.

 

[Juan But Not Forgotten]

Can't quote, so @Secret Asshole

It carries the same motifs, hating spiderman, death of a loved one, letting anger take over...except there's all that history there.

Not really, because in previous movies it went like "there is a vigilante and no one knows how to feel about it, because on the one hand he fights crime, but on the other he is breaking the law" and the rest. However, here Peter was already established hero and everyone knows him as such since he fought Vulture and helped Avengers, so it's more about hero falling from grace and dealing with it. It's also kinda different because the death of uncle Ben was the catalyst for Peter to become a superhero, while here it is a catalyst for him to make an ultimate sacrifice.

Eddie Brock isn't in the film because Sony and Marvel have a very weird thing going on with Venom, which is why current Eddie Brock isn't from this universe. Its kind of weird, since in the Morbius trailer it SEEMS like he's in the current MCU with vulture, but they mention venom and San Fransisco, so the rights issues are all fucking tangled up.

Well, yeah, but they already ripped almost every intellectual property from their movies to make this one, so why not? However, if THIS will be how symbiote will end up in MCU, I'm gonna die laughing. This so stupid, that it's actually brilliant.

Also, I forgot one thing. Do you remember where it was before - Peter wants people to forget about his identity and ends up sacrificing his love with MJ? Yep, it's basically One More Day, only now it works! Imagine taking one of the biggest clusterfucks in comic book history and turning it into something interesting.

It also doesn't help all the Synder movies are just Watchmen reskins. You know, the comic that's about the deconstruction of comic book tropes. Even the best character in those movies--Batman--is effectively Thomas Wayne and not all that useful in these kinds of movies.

Doesn't help that his adaptation of Watchmen was shallow and missed the point completely.

 

[DDBCAE CBAADCBE]

This isn’t even a remotely new phenomenon. It’s been going on since 2010.

 

[Grant McClellan]

Kevin Smith does not hate his audience. But then again your all just the toxic incel manbabies who hated Masters Of The Universe Revelation to begin with. Yeah Smith ain't perfect but to say be hates fans is ridiculous

 

[SheerHeartAttack]

Kevin Smith does not hate his audience. But then again your all just the toxic incel manbabies who hated Masters Of The Universe Revelation to begin with. Yeah Smith ain't perfect but to say be hates fans is ridiculous

My Kingdom for a Moai sticker here.

 

[PrimoVitorio]

The only Multiverse/Multimedia stuff worth it is the memes people make.
Aldo jones.
Mork.
Auralnaughts.
So forth.

If NWH is just one example I'm fine with it. I may go see it or get the DVD.
But here's the thing.

Avengers was cool because it was the first time that stuff happened.
The slow build up. Introducing the characters.

Now its just slapping them all together. No build up. Just.
LETS GET THEM ALL TOGETHER OH LOOK ITS SPIDERMAN REMEMBER SPIDERMAN?

Is it cool? Yes.
Do I want it all the time when I could make a video of it and post it to YT?
No.

You know what, just do that.
Marvel should post small vids of them all together.

 

[Akumaten]

Kevin Smith does not hate his audience. But then again your all just the toxic incel manbabies who hated Masters Of The Universe Revelation to begin with. Yeah Smith ain't perfect but to say be hates fans is ridiculous

The end parts of Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back with the money Jay and Bob gets, go to their critizizers and beat them up says otherwise.

 

[Getting tard comed]

@Secret Asshole

Tagging you so I know you see this is an excellent post and breakdown. I think you are 100% correct in what we are going to see from this and how Hollywood will take the exact wrong lessons to take.

If there was a way to award you something more than a Winner sticker I would.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Didn't we already do meta back in the 90s, with BtVS, Scream, Terry Pratchett, and all that shit? Why is it coming back now? Is this like wrestling gimmicks, where it takes 20 years to come round again?

 

[Tasty Tatty]

> How Many Times Will They Replicate the Story-Telling (Not Monetary) Success of No Way Home?

NWH is already a repetition of nostalgiafagging and "I CLAPPED", except it wasn't that bad. It was a lucky strike, it's not gonna happen again.

 

[Secret Asshole]

@Secret Asshole

Tagging you so I know you see this is an excellent post and breakdown. I think you are 100% correct in what we are going to see from this and how Hollywood will take the exact wrong lessons to take.

If there was a way to award you something more than a Winner sticker I would.

Thanks. Yeah, I have a feeling we're going to see that a lot in the coming years unfortunately, with varying degrees of obnoxious.

On that note, I DID make my writing thread, though its only half finished, for people that are interested:

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/secret-assholes-secret-techniques-to-storytelling.109918/

I'm posting it here because its on another board and people have asked me for it. I don't like self advertising, I'm only posting it because it might not get noticed otherwise. Beware, its fuck-off long.

Didn't we already do meta back in the 90s, with BtVS, Scream, Terry Pratchett, and all that shit? Why is it coming back now? Is this like wrestling gimmicks, where it takes 20 years to come round again?

Everything that is old is new again.

> How Many Times Will They Replicate the Story-Telling (Not Monetary) Success of No Way Home?

NWH is already a repetition of nostalgiafagging and "I CLAPPED", except it wasn't that bad. It was a lucky strike, it's not gonna happen again.

I mean I disagree clearly with your interpretation of NWH however I do agree that its never going to happen again.