The upper limits of forgiveness? Do you forgive neighbors? - Karmelo Anthony and Austin Metcalf's father

[Slap47]

What are the upper limits of forgiveness? Buddhism, Christianity, and many others emphasize forgiveness as a key tenant of their faith, but does everybody need to be forgiven for everything?

The Karmelo case is probably one of the most extreme cases of forgiveness. Karmelo Anthony stabbed Austin Metcalf to death for no particular reason and the father of Metcalf immediately forgave him believing it was the "Christian thing to do". However, when Metcalf's father showed up to an event to forgive Karmelo further he was forcibly expelled from the event and condemned by the family and legal team of Karmelo as a racist race-baiter and villain with political goals.

What are the rules on forgiveness? Should the killer have to actually feel bad or even remorseful? Should the killer actually have to stop being a killer? Is it crime specific? Do pedos get forgiveness? Would a true Christian welcome the man who raped and killed his son into the family? Or is the forgiveness of religion not meant for people, but rather for God?

My personal thoughts from my own secular morality is that forgiveness is overrated. You need harsh punishments to deter crime and some sins should be seen as unforgivable. Part of this comes from a utilitarian belief that society should discourage anti-social behaviors like murder and pedophilia with punishments and shame. However, part of this is also comes my wildly unpopular belief that vengeance is a form of justice. Adam Smith's quote "Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent" quote from his treatise on morality is more about the larger goals of a justice system, but it makes sense on the interpersonal level to. This almost feels like an extra level of cruelty being inflicted on Austin Metcalf.

This entire story feels like a perversion of it that completely misses the spirit of forgiveness. One things that come to mind for me is a story from Buddhism. In the story the Buddha refuses to forgive somebody, but the caveat is that he declares that there is nothing to forgive because it was a completely different person who wronged him. Ironically, this to me seems like the only case where forgiveness seems reasonable. Although this also reminds of the Liberian general "General Butt-Naked" who became an evangelical pastor after leading a cannibal army of child soldiers. His conversion seems genuine, he tries to help his victims and he has expressed a willingness to go to the international courts... however... his crimes are a bit much...

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Forgiveness is a two-party action, you can't forgive someone without them seeking it and accepting it. Not even God does that.

And even then forgiveness isn't the same as reconciliation. There are some acts that permanently alter a relationship and you can't let them go, or you risk yourself or someone else being victimized. Forgive but not forget. And forgiving too easily just condones whatever happened...there needs to be real commitment.

This situation is more like letting go of the desire for vengeance, which can be good or bad depending on the justness of the punishment.

 

[Breadbassket]

Too much forgiveness enables horrible people and too much vengeance creates blood feuds, there needs to be a harmonious balance.

 

[The Mighty Banth]

Forgiveness doesn't automatically mean mercy. Forgiveness for the victim is to help them sleep at night.

 

[The Evil Midnight Bomber]

Without forgiveness Ceasar would have been the first emperor of Rome. Octavian was smart enough to learn from his uncle's mistakes.

 

[Gog & Magog]

Lady Forgiveness remembers no wrongs. That's what Lady Justice is for.

 

[Divine Power]

Forgiveness especially with women can make things worse in my experience, maybe you can forgive but never forget their behaviour and make adjustments based on that

 

[Dagoth AMOGUS]

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." Matthew 18:21-22

According to my calculator 7x77 = 539 so the upper limit to forgive someone is 539 times.

 

[Nicholas Gur]

Gonna depend on multiple factors. You kill my only child there is nothing waiting for you but revenge, however if I have like 8 of them I can probably move on without biting off each one of you fingers digit by digit before I dump boiling grease on your face.

 

[Lovely Kin]

It truly depends on what I'm forgiving, if someone did something minor, I'm not going to give a shit and I will forgive them, especially if it was such a long time ago. If someone murdered any of my family members or a close friend, I would never forgive and never forget about it happening, and will wish the worst. However if someone constantly lies to me, I will slowly distance myself from that person and cut them out of my life. What good is forgiving someone and them apologizing if they are never going to change? Trust is often a mirror, you can break it and fix it, but the cracks will always be there and at one point, it's best to throw out the mirror and that broken relationship. I will also say, being taught as children to say "I forgive you" to any apology doesn't help things either.

I have drifted between being too forgiving and not forgiving enough, at the moment, I'm somewhere in the middle. I will cautiously give them a few more chances, depending on what was done. Too much and I distance myself gradually, maybe I will talk to them occasionally, but that relationship won't come back to what it once was. Especially if they don't change their behavior.

 

[Congo Dandy]

The push for forgiveness and not taking revenge is a psyop from religion (Christianity and Buddhism) and mass media to make the general population softer and less likely to fight back. It allows and condones evil people and unsavory types to continue doing harm.

Notice how most revenge stories end with major losses or death of the guy who takes revenge. Forgiveness rarely gets the person who wronged you to make amends or reflect on their anti-social behavior.

 

[Großmann]

Forgiveness does not necessitate forgoing justice. You can forgive someone while that someone still receives the punishment owed to him. Forgiveness is meant to allow the aggrieved to move on from a wrong doing and to allow the guilty to be absolved of guilt — though the guilty must acknowledge his need to be forgiven first.

Don’t confuse forgiveness with mercy however. Mercy is when that due punishment is spared. One may choose to be merciful to a man that has shown true contrition, but to be merciful to someone unrepentant is to fail to do proper justice.

 

[Ah ha']

As others already explained, but to put it again forgiveness is for you, not them.

You cant spend your life being purposelessly angry and jilted, and the less time spent doing that the better. Keep growing and keep calm!

 

[Lords Greatsword]

I always assumed "turn the other cheek" referred to mild things like verbal offenses and the like; something as severe as the murder of one you love isn't something one could simply turn his face to. If anything, it'd fall under the sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance.

The Karmelo case is probably one of the most extreme cases of forgiveness. Karmelo Anthony stabbed Austin Metcalf to death for no particular reason and the father of Metcalf immediately forgave him believing it was the "Christian thing to do". However, when Metcalf's father showed up to an event to forgive Karmelo further he was forcibly expelled from the event and condemned by the family and legal team of Karmelo as a racist race-baiter and villain with political goals.

Niggers are the only fucking group that could pull some shit like this and not face greater backlash from it, goddamn.

 

[Slap47]

Forgiveness is a two-party action, you can't forgive someone without them seeking it and accepting it. Not even God does that.

Actually, you can force people to forgive you.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Forgiveness is admitting that you would do the same if you were in the shoes of the perpetrator. Only the victim of the action is allowed to forgive, and it doesn't mean shit legally.

Forgiving niggers for killing your son just means you equate them with rabid beasts.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I always assumed "turn the other cheek" referred to mild things like verbal offenses and the like; something as severe as the murder of one you love isn't something one could simply turn his face to. If anything, it'd fall under the sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance.

I've always assumed the same. It's not a strong argument to say "use common sense bruh," but that's exactly what it feels like to me: common fucking sense would tell people that Jesus' point was about not letting us poison our social relationships through petty faggotry. Not that you should go verbally jerk off killers. But it goes to a general point that modern Christianity is all soft cuddles and no hardness.

I have a huge long rant I posted elsewhere (not on Kiwi Farms) about it, but something to remember about this stuff is that one Kiwi Farmer pointed out once that many of these families are heavily pressured by the International Jew into doing these stunts. Nonetheless, it is disgusting, and sometimes I am tempted - never have, but am tempted - to make a burner email and tell them, your son may not have deserved to die, but you deserved to lose him. It is disgusting that you apparently hold your loved one's lives so cheaply.

Forgiveness is a two-party action, you can't forgive someone without them seeking it and accepting it. Not even God does that.

I don't know if I can agree with that. To me forgiveness refers to two concepts, the social ritual of essentially pardoning someone of their offense that you will (theoretically) not treat them any differently for having done it, and the internal forgiveness of not allowing what they did to change the way you feel about them. The latter is an entirely private act done for personal benefit and there are times in life where you have to do it for people who are unrepentant. It's emotionally letting go so that it doesn't eat you up with bitterness and obsession forever.

 

[Señora Airi]

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Actually, you can force people to forgive you.

Forcing words on someone who cannot speak for themselves is abhorrent.

Anyway, forgiveness is only forgiving the man, not the sin. Once you've forgiven, you move on with your life, not this constant need of attention that the dad is showing.

 

[Tago Mago]

The whole Karmelo situation is just the biggest thesis in support of the "niggers aren't human" theory

And no, this kind of shit shouldn't be forgiven, you can see why

 

[Sugriva]

I forgave my neighbor when he got blackout drunk and was blasting music at 2am. I'm basically a saint.