Tolkien general thread

[Fictional Character]

Is anyone going to do a review of the Lawd ov Dem Rangz: Rangz ov Powa? I cant i swore upon my dog eared copy of the Silimilirion to not even hate watch it.

Here's a short review: Morgoth cannot create, he can only corrupt.

 

[Jarolleon]

By English he means Anglo Saxon. The only surviving myth is Beowulf. Most other Anglo Saxon mythology is lost to time. Tolkien was interested in creating a new mythology to augment the little that had survived. At least, this is something I have heard several times.

The account I heard is that he considered Beowulf to be a crystallisation of the pagan mythology that came before, so that something of it could survive in Christian England. Therefore, he set out to make an equivalent for the mythology of pre-modern England.

 

[Cheerlead-in-Chief]

The account I heard is that he considered Beowulf to be a crystallisation of the pagan mythology that came before, so that something of it could survive in Christian England. Therefore, he set out to make an equivalent for the mythology of pre-modern England.

Oh my local library has his interpretation of "Beowulf" and I so wanna read it. And the "Silmarillion". It was at a Costco.

 

[BiggerChungus]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist? I read a claim that he organized occultist orgies via the Tolkien Society, which I'm not sure I believe, but I do know that one of the main European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies." Just the idea of it's turned me away from Tolkien's works for a while now, to be honest. I don't know if any of it's true or not, but I can't help but feel like my opinion of him and his work's hurt.

 

[ditto]

Tolkien being a Satanist?

Who's spreading those rumors? Tolkien was a devoted Catholic married faithfully his entire life. A worldview shared in LoTR all his writings.

European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies."

Link?

 

[BiggerChungus]

Link?

From TheTolkienist

 

[JJLiautaud]

From TheTolkienist

WTF, first I've ever heard of any this tolkien was a devout catholic who was irritated by Vatican II, so no no satanism.

 

[Brahma]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist? I read a claim that he organized occultist orgies via the Tolkien Society, which I'm not sure I believe, but I do know that one of the main European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies." Just the idea of it's turned me away from Tolkien's works for a while now, to be honest. I don't know if any of it's true or not, but I can't help but feel like my opinion of him and his work's hurt.

Nothing in his work suggests he was a satanist. If anything, like CS Lewis, he lays the Christian allegory on rather thick

 

[Raoul_Duke]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist? I read a claim that he organized occultist orgies via the Tolkien Society, which I'm not sure I believe, but I do know that one of the main European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies." Just the idea of it's turned me away from Tolkien's works for a while now, to be honest. I don't know if any of it's true or not, but I can't help but feel like my opinion of him and his work's hurt.

He must have been a very bad Satanist then, since he was so Catholic!

 

[DaBigBopper]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist? I read a claim that he organized occultist orgies via the Tolkien Society, which I'm not sure I believe, but I do know that one of the main European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies." Just the idea of it's turned me away from Tolkien's works for a while now, to be honest. I don't know if any of it's true or not, but I can't help but feel like my opinion of him and his work's hurt.

He literally still spoke Latin at masses because of how much he hated Vatican 2. Tolkien attempted to convert C.S. Lewis into Catholicism, but Lewis basically converted to Anglican and his church was basically Catholic adjacent. The Inklings, of which Tolkien was a member, was a community of Lit. Professors. That community might've had Satanists, as they were mostly British men and the British have a number of Occultists.

LoTR is generally a really Christian work. Sauron is the rent boy of Melkor, the in-setting Satan stand-in who is also called the Grand Nihilist by Tolkien in some fan letters. Sauron is evil to the point where he consistently denies redemption to double down on his actions. I assume it's Jack Chick-types throwing Tolkien into shit because a lot of people like Tolkien.

Christopher Lee supposedly spoke to him at great lengths and Christopher Lee's stance on the occult was that it's powerless, but the very stupid will wager their souls in actions that are pointless and powerless. I really fucking doubt it.

 

[Jarolleon]

He literally still spoke Latin at masses because of how much he hated Vatican 2. Tolkien attempted to convert C.S. Lewis into Catholicism, but Lewis basically converted to Anglican and his church was basically Catholic adjacent. The Inklings, of which Tolkien was a member, was a community of Lit. Professors. That community might've had Satanists, as they were mostly British men and the British have a number of Occultists.

LoTR is generally a really Christian work. Sauron is the rent boy of Melkor, the in-setting Satan stand-in who is also called the Grand Nihilist by Tolkien in some fan letters. Sauron is evil to the point where he consistently denies redemption to double down on his actions. I assume it's Jack Chick-types throwing Tolkien into shit because a lot of people like Tolkien.

Christopher Lee supposedly spoke to him at great lengths and Christopher Lee's stance on the occult was that it's powerless, but the very stupid will wager their souls in actions that are pointless and powerless. I really fucking doubt it.

Jack Chick types would make the most sense, since they literally believe that the Catholic Church is satanic.

 

[Andrew Neiman]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist?

Points for originality.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

From TheTolkienist

 

[Brahma]

Christopher Lee supposedly spoke to him at great lengths and Christopher Lee's stance on the occult was that it's powerless, but the very stupid will wager their souls in actions that are pointless and powerless. I really fucking doubt it.

Slight tangent, but here's 2for1 of Christopher Lee warning people away from dabbling in the occult, that you'll "not only lose your mind, but you'll lose your soul" and not to trust the Lugenpresse that "if they can't think of something to do (write), they invent it".

 

[TVB]

Slight tangent, but here's 2for1 of Christopher Lee warning people away from dabbling in the occult, that you'll "not only lose your mind, but you'll lose your soul" and not to trust the Lugenpresse that "if they can't think of something to do (write), they invent it".

It's something that even the Amazon show couldn't even do.

 

[skykiii]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist? I read a claim that he organized occultist orgies via the Tolkien Society, which I'm not sure I believe, but I do know that one of the main European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies." Just the idea of it's turned me away from Tolkien's works for a while now, to be honest. I don't know if any of it's true or not, but I can't help but feel like my opinion of him and his work's hurt.

That feeling when you see a post like this and it ISN'T posted on April 1st.

 

[draggs]

Nothing in his work suggests he was a satanist. If anything, like CS Lewis, he lays the Christian allegory on rather thick

He would drill holes in your skull with his deathstare for saying it's allegory. Obligatory Tolkien disdained allegory reference goes here. He disliked Narnia because it was so allegorical.

The story of Arda uses lots of Christian themes like spiritual decay -> material decay, the danger of pride, and other stuff... but there's no original sin, no Jesus, no organized religion of Eru among the Elves, and none among Men either after the corruption and fall of Numenor. There's no parallel to the wars of Morgoth and Sauron in Christianity, the corruption of Feanor and his sons, etc.

The rebellion of Morgoth and his corruption of many Maiar we associate with Satan and the other fallen angels because that's the culture we are familiar with, but that kind of stuff also happens in Norse religion, ancient Greco-Roman, ancient Egyptian, ancient Mesopotamian, ancient Phoenician, etc., which he was familiar with to varying degrees.

Tolkien was trying to create an epic mythology and the most epic mythology he knew was Christian so yeah there's lots of commonalities but it's not intended as allegory at all.

 

[My Name is Ed]

Has anyone ever looked into the rumors about Tolkien being a Satanist? I read a claim that he organized occultist orgies via the Tolkien Society, which I'm not sure I believe, but I do know that one of the main European Tolkien Societies' top selling points for members is it hosts something called "castle orgies." Just the idea of it's turned me away from Tolkien's works for a while now, to be honest. I don't know if any of it's true or not, but I can't help but feel like my opinion of him and his work's hurt.

So my brief reading led me to Åke Ohlmarks, a Swedish scholar who published some really, REALLY bad Swedish translations of Tolkien's works. He'd take a number of extreme liberties with in-universe words and their meanings (as an example, if I recall correctly he referred to Rivendell as something like "River-dale"), as well as just simply not being good enough at English to translate any of it well. He didn't much care for Tolkien's work either, since he considered it juvenile. It was really not well-received, with even Tolkien declaring it pretty shit.

Some time in the 70s-80s he got a bit salty about all the flak he was receiving for it, developed a bit of a complex against the Tolkien estate, and released a book detailing Tolkien's links to "Nazi occultism", which I suspect is where the accusations of satanism and castle orgies come into play. The book's name is Tolkien och den Svarta Magin (Tolkien and the Black Magic) and I'll award one (1) Kiwifarma-karma to anyone that can find the PDF or some other scanned version (2 if you can find it translated). From what little I've read and managed to deduce through the language barrier is that it has some prime Jack Chick-esque cow material in it.

But if you're still worried, let me put your mind at ease and say no, Tolkien, and everyone associated with him, were categorically not satanists, never hosted orgies, and never tried summoning any qt3.15 succubi. The unquendor are yankin' yer chain.

TL;DR early example of modern attitudes to localization.

 

[WhiskeyJack]

So my brief reading led me to Åke Ohlmarks, a Swedish scholar who published some really, REALLY bad Swedish translations of Tolkien's works. He'd take a number of extreme liberties with in-universe words and their meanings (as an example, if I recall correctly he referred to Rivendell as something like "River-dale"), as well as just simply not being good enough at English to translate any of it well. He didn't much care for Tolkien's work either, since he considered it juvenile. It was really not well-received, with even Tolkien declaring it pretty shit.

Some time in the 70s-80s he got a bit salty about all the flak he was receiving for it, developed a bit of a complex against the Tolkien estate, and released a book detailing Tolkien's links to "Nazi occultism", which I suspect is where the accusations of satanism and castle orgies come into play. The book's name is Tolkien och den Svarta Magin (Tolkien and the Black Magic) and I'll award one (1) Kiwifarma-karma to anyone that can find the PDF or some other scanned version (2 if you can find it translated). From what little I've read and managed to deduce through the language barrier is that it has some prime Jack Chick-esque cow material in it.

But if you're still worried, let me put your mind at ease and say no, Tolkien, and everyone associated with him, were categorically not satanists, never hosted orgies, and never tried summoning any qt3.15 succubi. The unquendor are yankin' yer chain.

TL;DR early example of modern attitudes to localization.

I remember reading about this Ohlmarks fellow and his horrible translation back in the early aughts.

I think Rivendell became "Water-dale", actually, as he thought Riven was akin to River. He changed a lot of names in weird, Google-Autotranslate ways. I particularly recall that Lake Town (Esgaroth) became something like "Snail Shit Town" because he thought Esgaroth was related to Escargot, for some reason.

If memory serves, he also changed RotK so that Merry kills the Witch-King, presumably because he didn't want a female character to have an important role.

Never heard he wrote a slanderous book accusing Tolkien of occultism. Must not have realized how well known Tolkien is among his fanbase, or how autistic they are about documenting Tolkien's personal history. Doesn't appear to have ever been translated to English, sadly.

 

[BiggerChungus]

View attachment 4315052

I'm still not entirely convinced either way, but it might be that the shit we're seeing now is more of these types hijacking Tolkien and his legacy instead of it being his own original intent.

Christopher Lee's stance on the occult was that it's powerless, but the very stupid will wager their souls in actions that are pointless and powerless.

It's weird how people read that he had an occult book collection and a heavy metal band and assume he was a Satanist himself when he was actually, according to himself anyway, a devout Christian. People tend to misunderstand Lee pretty often, but who knows at the end of the day.