🐱 Trans and nonbinary Witches respond to “Traditional Gardnerian Wica” declaration

CatParty

For transgender and nonbinary Gardnerians, the controversy surrounding a recently published document deemed transphobic elicited strong condemnations and widespread dismissal of any influence the statement’s authors have in the Gardenarian community.

As The Wild Hunt previously reported, a small group of anonymous Gardernarians recently posted “A Declaration of the Traditional Gardnerian Wica,” claiming that the tradition’s principles are strictly rooted in male/female polarity and denying the compatibility of other gender identifications with their practice.

Among those expressing outrage are Yvonne Aburrow, author of All Acts of Love and Pleasure: Inclusive Wicca, along with other titles. Aburrow is nonbinary and became a Gardnerian in 1991. They have been part of the magical community since 1985 and have long advocated for a more inclusive Wicca.


“The first time I met a trans initiate was in 1995, and she was in a relationship with a member of Gardner’s original coven,” Aburrow said via email. “Various members of the mainstream Gardnerian community who have responded to the transphobic declaration have broken down in some detail how it actually contradicts things that Gerald Gardner wrote. The individuals making the declaration are marginal within the online community (and have set up their own Facebook groups where they can promote their view of the Craft). They do not represent the vast majority of the Gardnerian community, and they certainly do not represent a traditional view of Gardnerian Wicca.”

Aburrow, who holds an master’s in Contemporary Religions and Spiritualities from Bath Spa University in England, is concerned with the declaration’s claims of a more authentic understanding of Gardener, especially given their research’s focus on queer spirituality in both Christianity and Paganism at large.

“I am always disturbed when people use the concept of tradition as a cover for their bigotry,” they explained. “Tradition is a growing and changing thing, it is not set in stone (and the people behind this declaration are actually trying to change the tradition into something that is at odds with its general themes).”

Aburrow was also quick to point out the declaration’s potentially negative ramifications to creating a welcoming space.

“It has also been sad to see seekers and newer initiates being dismayed by the declaration, as it is very disheartening for people who are not really acquainted with the wider community to think that this sort of bigotry might be widespread in the community they are joining,” they said. “For those of us who have been part of the community for decades and are familiar with the attitudes and beliefs of Gardnerians, it is clear that [the declaration] is a rant by a small number of disaffected bigots, who do not like it that the community is moving towards greater inclusivity.”

Misha Magdalene, who describes herself as a “multi-queer Witch” from Rhode Island, was initiated in both the Anderson Feri and Gardnerian traditions. As the author of Outside the Charmed Circle: Exploring Gender and Sexuality in Magical Practice, Magdalene characterizes the situation through a similarly nuanced lens.

“My initial reaction was a bit of a non-reaction: ‘Oh, there go the transphobes again,’” she said. “At a certain point, you just get used to these periodic, nonsensical gurglings from the usual suspects. It’s an attempt at instilling the Craft with a right-wing agenda. It’s harmful, in part because it tarnishes the reputation of Gardnerian Craft for people who might not be informed enough to understand that these folks only represent a small-but-loud fraction of the Craft, but it’s neither new nor noteworthy.”

While Magdalene admits to having experienced discrimination within the Gardnerian community, she notes it is not the overriding sentiment.

“I’ve dealt with ugliness from particular individuals, but the Gardnerian community as a whole has been welcoming, accepting, and thoughtful in its approach to transgender people,” she explained. “I’ve had longtime friends and Elders within the Craft reach out to me in recent days to see how I’m doing, and to offer their support. It’s been lovely.”

Aburrow has also had their fair share of negative reactions, but noted a shift within the community.

“When I first started talking about making Wicca more inclusive, I did get pushback from some people, especially from some of the individuals behind this statement,” they said. “Over the last seven or eight years, a lot more people have become interested in making our rituals more inclusive for LGBTQ2SIA people.” (Aburrow has included two spirit, intersex, and asexual identities, along with lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning.)

In the wake of the declaration’s publications, many trans and nonbinary Gardnerians felt the need to express radical pride and remind fellow practitioners of their presence in the tradition. Shane Mason, a nursing student and nonbinary Gardnerian in New York City, was resolute.

“There was sadness, and anger, of course, but also resolve,” they said. “Determination to continue living authentically as myself, and to continue honoring the gods and ancestors of my tradition as I have always done. No ‘declaration’ with a few dozen signatures is going to prevent me from doing that.”

Like Aburrow and Magdalene, Mason views the declaration’s authors and its supporters as outnumbered.

“I can’t help but feel like the small segment of the Gardnerian community who are so adamant about gatekeeping the tradition from gender nonconforming practitioners know good and well that they are in the extreme minority,” they said, “and that their position is becoming less and less popular as the world evolves and changes.”

This tracks with Mason’s overall journey in the Gardenarian tradition. When Mason began seeking out training a decade ago, a few people in the wider Pagan community suggested that they might face discrimination, but Mason found the opposite.

“The first time I met the local Gardnerian coven at a Pagan Expo, they had a typed sign in a frame on their information table. It read: ‘We are non-racist, non-sexist, and non-homophobic – and expect our students to be also.’ When I answer e-mails from seekers these days, I tend to include a similar statement about inclusion,” Mason explained. “The vast majority of Gardnerians I know are wonderful, loving, generous people. But like any cross section of the population, there are going to be a handful of people you want to steer clear of. Being a Witch doesn’t necessarily make someone a good person.”

Instead of focusing on the negativity of the declaration, Mason is determined to recognize the progress that has been made in the Pagan community, and to move forward.

“The tide of progress cannot be stemmed. I have been focusing on the mysteries of the Craft as I interpret them, and on the group that I run. I have a flourishing coven of my own initiates, as well as an Outer Court (training group), so I’m busy attending to their needs, and don’t have a ton of extra time to argue fruitlessly with people on the internet.”

Magdalene strikes a similarly defiant tone. She casts the declaration’s authors in the wider context of an increasingly more inclusive magical community that does not tolerate transphobic rhetoric.

“The folks who put together this “declaration” are a loud minority within the broader community, one that’s quickly rendering itself persona non grata within that community,” she said. “They claim to be the only ones practicing Gardnerian Craft the ‘one, true, right, and only’ way, but the reality is that they’re actually the ones deviating from the traditions and precedents set by our Elders. I see no reason to let their bad faith attempts to co-opt the narrative interfere with my practice of the Craft, or my communion with our Gods.”
 
Oh I get that, but if the whole thing is indeed built off of male/female duality then you'd think they'd prosecute faggots like the pagan celts and norse did. Either go full or don't go.
Oh yeah, that's because when you make a sex cult to get laid you invite all other sexual outcasts lol. I don't know if a dislike of homosexuality was known at that point in the research, but do you think a nerdy guy would turn down bisexual pussy or lesbians? The homos can come too if they don't hit on him. :story:

Note: I know nothing about his sexuality, he could have been bi for all I know. I'm glad the religion is accepting at least, gives people who need it spiritual comfort.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NoReturn
One of the dumbest fucking things about this is that Wicca is like Christianity in that each circle is different and you're encouraged to go find one that works for you.

Not allowed communion in the Catholic church because you divorced and remarried? There are probably a dozen churches within 20 miles of you that have no problem handing you a cracker and a shot.

Not allowed to do Beltane with the all-female circle? There's probably a co-ed circle that has no problems with you attending.

Just because one group doesn't accept you doesn't mean you need to mount a federal case.
 
@NoReturn girl I need to make sure you see this. :story:
:story: :story: :story:
1660064037811.png1660064096674.png1660064164123.png
Who is this "Kim"?
1660064263855.pngprofileIcon_wqvjsxiatbg91.jpg
Literally created the account just to post in that thread.
It's such a bonkers slapfight to me: the religion IS based around that. TurdFondler is right (man I love Kiwi Farms usernames letting me say batshit like this), you can male your own denomination. The damn thing started as a bunch of nerds attempting to revive their cultural heritage (but mostly get laid), considering we know a bit more about past paganism now and how many pagan religions and sects opened up over the years, why not head to one of those?
You know why. I know why. We all know why.
Woman empowerment. It allows more woman power than most other religions, which attracts lesbians since you know, vagina and all. Some sects differ from others on how much men and women have power, most are either equal or matriarchal. For feminist & lesbians who enjoy spirituality, it was the best option as opposed to say the Abrahamic religions. Now more religions & religious sects have recognized women as spiritual equals at the very least, so there's a bit more diversity.
"No women without trans women!"
Made up religious infighting is hilarious. There's not even real scripture or theology to have arguments about. You just have to say you're a different flavor of mystic pagan to justify whatever the fuck you want to do. For example I'm a wizard of the order Shitpostum Obscura and posting garbage on Null's site is how I worship.
 
You know why. I know why. We all know why.
Looking greatly forward to the day they try to take on Islam and make SURE it's more inclusive to troons. :story: Probably not in America where Jesus is still the majority, but there's already been some slapfighting in England.
 
  • Feels
Reactions: NoReturn
Looking greatly forward to the day they try to take on Islam and make SURE it's more inclusive to troons. :story: Probably not in America where Jesus is still the majority, but there's already been some slapfighting in England.
Funny you bring that up:
1660076654324.png
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AMHOLIO
Oh yeah, that's because when you make a sex cult to get laid you invite all other sexual outcasts lol. I don't know if a dislike of homosexuality was known at that point in the research, but do you think a nerdy guy would turn down bisexual pussy or lesbians? The homos can come too if they don't hit on him. :story:

Note: I know nothing about his sexuality, he could have been bi for all I know. I'm glad the religion is accepting at least, gives people who need it spiritual comfort.
From what I understand, the female exclusive branches (Dianics and whatever) are controversial too.
Most pagans I've met have been full of shit. My tranny sister insists she's a "Hellenistic" Pagan and yet didn't believe me when I pointed out Yule is a fucking norse holiday.
 
Most pagans I've met have been full of shit. My tranny sister insists she's a "Hellenistic" Pagan and yet didn't believe me when I pointed out Yule is a fucking norse holiday.
You just remindedme ofthat clickbait article that was posted in here a few months ago claiming fucking snow miser and heat miser from a year without a santa claus were "paganistic icons" or some retarded shit like that because yule or something despite the fact these are fucking characters that originate from a fucking christian holiday special and christmas is supposedly "bad" or something because cultural appropriation.
 
Last edited:
Oh I get that, but if the whole thing is indeed built off of male/female duality then you'd think they'd prosecute faggots like the pagan celts and norse did. Either go full or don't go.
Sorry to rain on your parade on that one, but ancient pagan Celts were some of the biggest faggots in Ancient Europe to the point that even the Greeks thought they were a little too gay.

Aristotle remarked how Celtic men vastly preferred male lovers to the women to an unnatural degree, as did Roman sources on the Celts.

Contrary to what a lot of wignat Asatru LARP'ers say, the Germanic pagans weren't entirely opposed to gays as we'd understand them.

The whole "muh killing fags and throwing them into bogs" is often taken out of context by retarded Nordicist wignat LARP'ers who still view the concept of homosexuality through a Christian lens despite claiming to not follow "desert kike cults" or what have you.

When pagan ancient Europeans talk about condemning men for being effeminate or gay, that it's not because they just had sex with another man.

It's specifically that they bottomed to a thrall or someone else of a lower social standing or refused to also father an heir.

The modern concept of "gay" is heavily influenced by Abrahamic views, whereas most ancient pagans it was less "gay vs. straight" and more "top vs. bottom"

Those gays that were killed and thrown in bogs by Germanic pagans only got killed because they bottomed to a thrall or neglected their wives too much. Keep in mind that Tacitus was observing this from a Roman pagan lens and not a Christian or Abrahamic lens.

He noted the eerie similarities between Roman pagan society and Germanic pagan societies, to the point of equating Mercury with Odin/Wotan and Jupiter with Thor.

The Romans had a similar concept where it was fine for a man to be bisexual so long as he didn't bottom to someone lesser and also had a wife to sire heirs with.

In most European pagan societies of the time (even the Germanic and Celtic ones), a man could have sex with another man if he was the top and he also took the time to fuck his wife enough to father an heir.

Wignat pagan LARP'ers don't like that since most "folkish" forms of Norse paganism is just reskinned Christianity to avoid the stigma of being an atheist and to avoid the fact that Christianity was founded by ancient Jewish radicals and its message of universal salvation for those who seek Christ regardless of their standing in life sort of flies in the face of racial nationalism.

Most pagans I've met have been full of shit. My tranny sister insists she's a "Hellenistic" Pagan and yet didn't believe me when I pointed out Yule is a fucking norse holiday.

You have my utmost sympathies on that one. Hopefully she'll grow out of it eventually.

I take it her particular view of paganism is influenced by Wicca and Marvel as opposed to any genuine historical or mythological views.

And before you get all uppity, I'm NOT a pagan.
 
Last edited:
  • Dumb
Reactions: Ser Prize
Im very proud of our allies from the Terf brigade!
Now its time for us Kiwis to start out own witchcraft SexKult!
 
Sorry to rain on your parade on that one, but ancient pagan Celts were some of the biggest faggots in Ancient Europe to the point that even the Greeks thought they were a little too gay.

Aristotle remarked how Celtic men vastly preferred male lovers to the women to an unnatural degree, as did Roman sources on the Celts.

Contrary to what a lot of wignat Asatru LARP'ers say, the Germanic pagans weren't entirely opposed to gays as we'd understand them.

The whole "muh killing fags and throwing them into bogs" is often taken out of context by retarded Nordicist wignat LARP'ers who still view the concept of homosexuality through a Christian lens despite claiming to not follow "desert kike cults" or what have you.

When pagan ancient Europeans talk about condemning men for being effeminate or gay, that it's not because they just had sex with another man.

It's specifically that they bottomed to a thrall or someone else of a lower social standing or refused to also father an heir.

The modern concept of "gay" is heavily influenced by Abrahamic views, whereas most ancient pagans it was less "gay vs. straight" and more "top vs. bottom"

Those gays that were killed and thrown in bogs by Germanic pagans only got killed because they bottomed to a thrall or neglected their wives too much. Keep in mind that Tacitus was observing this from a Roman pagan lens and not a Christian or Abrahamic lens.

He noted the eerie similarities between Roman pagan society and Germanic pagan societies, to the point of equating Mercury with Odin/Wotan and Jupiter with Thor.

The Romans had a similar concept where it was fine for a man to be bisexual so long as he didn't bottom to someone lesser and also had a wife to sire heirs with.

In most European pagan societies of the time (even the Germanic and Celtic ones), a man could have sex with another man if he was the top and he also took the time to fuck his wife enough to father an heir.

Wignat pagan LARP'ers don't like that since most "folkish" forms of Norse paganism is just reskinned Christianity to avoid the stigma of being an atheist and to avoid the fact that Christianity was founded by ancient Jewish radicals and its message of universal salvation for those who seek Christ regardless of their standing in life sort of flies in the face of racial nationalism.



You have my utmost sympathies on that one. Hopefully she'll grow out of it eventually.

I take it her particular view of paganism is influenced by Wicca and Marvel as opposed to any genuine historical or mythological views.
I don't trust your conclusions. Not that I don't doubt the "it's not gay if I'm on top" part wasn't a part of the culture at some points but I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of gay sex that went on. You can claim it's "norse wignat larpers" but there are actual laws that said it was okay to kill someone if they accused you of being a faggot.

Just going by modern men's response to homosexuality I find it really hard to believe that a vast majority of dudes were plundering manass. Maybe a few, because that happens. But en masse? No way.

Also she's 23 so sadly that retardation is probably there to stay. And yeah, very normie paganistic traditions that she gets from her "gay socialistic" friends.
 
I don't trust your conclusions. Not that I don't doubt the "it's not gay if I'm on top" part wasn't a part of the culture at some points but I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of gay sex that went on. You can claim it's "norse wignat larpers" but there are actual laws that said it was okay to kill someone if they accused you of being a faggot.

Just going by modern men's response to homosexuality I find it really hard to believe that a vast majority of dudes were plundering manass. Maybe a few, because that happens. But en masse? No way.

Also she's 23 so sadly that retardation is probably there to stay. And yeah, very normie paganistic traditions that she gets from her "gay socialistic" friends.

Once again, the whole "accused of being a faggot" is different from how we view gay sex today.

And yes, a lot of these modern views on Germanic paganism come from Wignat Nordic LARP'ers, most of whom are crypto-atheists who play too much Skyrim and listen to Burzum too much.

To actual ancient pagans, being accused of being a faggot was to be accused of being a bottom to someone lower than you, which was seen as both being womanly and submitting to those beneath you.

Even bottoming to someone of the same social status was seen as taboo and a common form of slander.

Most of the modern men's response to homosexuality is heavily shaped by the dominance of Abrahamic monotheism (as is damn near everything else in modern society), but even then I never said that the majority of ancient pagan men were having gay sex all the time.

And no, I don't think the "vast majority" of men in ancient pagan societies were having lots of gay sex. Those were your words and your conclusions, not mine.

Keep in mind that Aristotle's words about Celtic men being extra faggy is also the words of an upper-class Athenian describing a tribe of people he viewed as unwashed barbarians and savages.

Historical evidence shows that ancient pagan societies in Europe (yes, even Northern Europe) were rather bi-normative by our more modern standards. Which does not quite mean what you probably think it means.

Heterosexuality was still the norm for the majority of the populace but male bisexuality was tolerated so long as you topped and didn't bottom to someone lower than you. Note that "tolerated" does not mean it happened all the time. Just that it was legal under certain conditions.

At the same time, "plundering man-ass" was largely seen as a hobby of those who could actually afford slaves and thralls. The majority of poor pagan Europeans weren't having gay sex.

You still have my sympathies about your sister.
 
Last edited:
Back