Trolling Ethics Debate Thread

[timtommy]

Personally, I feel like that's dodging the responsibility though. Sure, the information is available to Chris if he really wants to know, but he's either too lazy or deluded to ever look it up. Having the information out there isn't the same thing as calling him up and admitting that you were complicit in manipulating him and explaining why. I feel that taking responsibility would involve that explanation, as well as sitting through whatever Chris has to say to try and get him to understand.

It's a fool's errand though, and it's not something I can expect someone else to do. I'm not even convinced that I would do it myself if I was in Catherine's shoes.

A major issue is that Chris' powers of self delusion are fairly epic. If he doesn't understand something he won't.

Suppose the character who is playing Catie confesses to him she is a troll. The next day someone else contacts Chris from Catie@notatroll.com and says that she was hacked or had her phone stolen by someone who then lied to Chris. Would Chris believe the new person? It's not out of the realm of possibility.

It's just not as simple as contacting Chris and saying, "Hey, your "friends" a b and c are trolls. I know because I am one of them." That may not be sufficient for him to clue in.

After thinking about it, I have a little more sympathy for him about this than I would have expected. He is constantly bombarded by fake people and lies. People are constantly telling him "this is TRUE and HONEST". To a simple mind like Chris', a troll confessing could easily just seem like another possibly true, possibly untrue statement that contradicts other possibly true, possibly untrue statements. He doesn't know what to believe, so he just believes what he wants.

It's kind of like what would happened if some real prince one day actually wanted your help getting his millions out of Nigeria. Or like the Boy who Cried Wolf story.

 

[Coldgrip]

I may not have the full picture as I'm not part of any troll secret circle, but Catherine broke up with Chris and Chris is still trying to get her back to him. Which is very unhealthy and I feel that he would stop if he knew "Catie" was just a fake trollsona. He would rage about it and than forget her like he forget all the other fake sweethearts before instead of trying to chase her.

No, no he wouldn't. Look at how he views Megan. She's the queen of the trolls to him but he's never stopped thinking about her. If anything, he'd then demand that the troll give him china or at least set him up with china as payment.

Also Chris is well known for never letting things go. He'd just wind up holding a grudge against them.

If some one developed a trollsona that Chris would listen to and was only used to combat weens trying to genuinely harm Chris I would be for it.

Because we all know Chris will listen to good advice.

That and you'd have people on here complaining that if the troll really wanted to help Chris they wouldn't be doing so through trolling methods.

 

[Ravenor]

Actually, this very thing happened. During my interactions with Chris, several ill-intentioned trolls tried to get to him. Some of these attempts were unbelievably elaborate.

Anyway, I exposed them. (I'm not saying this absolves me or vindicates me in any way, just thought I'd throw it out there. @Null and @KatsuKitty can back this up. I sent them screen caps of the trolling attempts.)

Good on you an to be honest I haven't thought iffy about your interactions with Chris, tbh I thought it was positive and it's got us unexpected content.

What I was saying is when some one is close to Chris an trolls him into a stupid situation it's not funny any more, if it was ever funny to begin with. He is as it has been phrased His own best troll. An now it's at a point where no new trolling should occur let's not try And direct his life unless it's obvious it is going to harm or kill him or defuse a ween plot to harm Chris.

I'm of the view we are the closest thing he has to real friends, despite this being a odd relationship, he is still our friend an we don't want to see him come to harm.

Because we all know Chris will listen to good advice.

That and you'd have people on here complaining that if the troll really wanted to help Chris they wouldn't be doing so through trolling methods.

I am not saying he would after all it's Chris we are talking about but we could at least engage in damage limitation so he isn't irreparably harmed by ween scheme #3000457

 

[Cuck Norris]

I know trolls have told him in the past they want to make his life better, but has anyone ever considered just straight up telling him like "look we obsess over your every move and it's weird and creepy but so are you and we care about you and we just want to see you live better"?

Who am I kidding he'd just say "mmm, yeah..." and go back to playing vidya.

 

[Konstantinos]

Trolling has never really involved ethics. A-logging and weens aside, the thing that people wanted to see from trolling efforts was Chris flipping out or reacting in some dramatic fashion. Chris, being a perfect storm of naivete, self-delusion, atismu, overconfidence and pride, tended to give out reactions like that fairly frequently back in the day.

I think that the internet just worked like that back during the golden age of Chris: People who are getting trolled are probably idiots who completely deserve the infamy they've received. Chris fit that to a tee. Not only was he spectacularly weird and dumb, he encouraged the trolls to attack him by responding to them. Between Chris' home life, his incoherent videos, his attempts to spite da trolls, his lovequest and more, he gave his foes quite a bit of ammunition to work with.

 

[WilhelmIIofPrussia]

I suppose the biggest question on my mind is: is anyone from the forums ever going to contact Chris pretending to be a love interest, old friend or family member ever again?

 

[Frank Rizzo]

I know trolls have told him in the past they want to make his life better, but has anyone ever considered just straight up telling him like "look we obsess over your every move and it's weird and creepy but so are you and we care about you and we just want to see you live better"?

Who am I kidding he'd just say "mmm, yeah..." and go back to playing vidya.

Well, I mean, certain people *have* said that to him in the past. Not exactly in those words, but more or less the jist of the message was "We want to see your life improve for the better". And Chris' response is usually a variation of "I'll think over what you said...mmm, yeah."

 

[Cuck Norris]

Well, I mean, certain people *have* said that to him in the past. Not exactly in those words, but more or less the jist of the message was "We want to see your life improve for the better". And Chris' response usually a variation of "I'll think over what you said...mmm, yeah."

I don't mean individually though, I mean like as a collective. From what I've gathered lurking the people on this board do more for him than any of his so-called friends. I doubt it'd get through, because nothing ever does with Chris, but maybe if he sees it from more than one person it'll finally click that "holy shit the trolls weren't lying or being slanderous, they really do genuinely care about me". I've no problem joking about Chris' stupidity when it comes to the taint piercing for example, but I know plenty of other posters are thankful as well that he's finally taken it out for good. Only a complete sociopath would want to see Chris permanently injured or dead.

 

[Shovel Mech Pilot]

do whatever, idc shit's funny

 

[JULAY]

Hey! Lincoln Douglas debate is neato burrito! I used to coach it when I lived in the US and my students have won some championships in it.

Skyraider: I'm really disturbed by your complete disdain for Chris and Barb that is coupled with your obsession with stalking them. It's one thing to take pictures of their stuff and laugh at them, but you almost seem to get some sort of schadenfreude out of it because you think they're bad people who deserve to be punished. In nearly every single post you make, you talk about how they're terrible people and don't deserve nice things at all and are better off living in some ditch. I don't understand what you accomplished by posting his scorched homework, I'm pretty sure Chris' actions over the past ten years have shown that Chris' Honor Roll ranking is on par with the special ed kids I went to high school with who achieved Honor Roll status. You really need to chill out and tone it down a little bit with your hatred for the Chandlers, that coupled with your stalking of them comes across as really spiteful and petty.

Thetan: It was a bad idea to try and help Chris in the way you did. You're not a therapist, and many therapists have worked with Chris and failed, so I don't know why you thought you would succeed. If you really wanted to help him, you wouldn't have mislead him and shared his personal details on the forums.

Catherine: You did something that dozens of trolls have done before, but you provided the least interesting and most depressing content of everyone.

Are you seriously arguing that Chris and Barb aren't terrible people?

 

[Objection!]

Chris is just a unique case. Instead of debating ethical/unethical, I'm starting to wonder more about when Barb passes an actual major crisis happens and what, if any role we should have or play in Chris's life at that point.

The fire response was great, but that's a transient tragedy. Luckily neither Chris nor Barb were actually injured as a result. I don't feel we have any obligation to Chris beyond discouraging weenery as much as possible and not making his life a living hell. Where are we really going from here?

If possible, I'd like to hear ethics not of the past but of the future instead. Should there be any role going forward for Chris?

 

[Horse in Pants]

i think we should all show up around his house one day donning pickle suits and scream julayyyyy outside of his house

 

[Objection!]

i think we should all show up around his house one day donning pickle suits and scream julayyyyy outside of his house

While funny, I hope the day doesn't come where his life is so bad he actually realizes it and misses the golden days of trolling instead of the rose colored high school days.

 

[Datiko]

Some of the posts in this thread make it sound as if we should act as wardens of a CWC preserve. I don't have an opinion on that but the image of Chris bounding freely through a tailor built landscape of hoard, vidya, and golden age trolls is killing me.

 

[Mollybdenum]

Are you seriously arguing that Chris and Barb aren't terrible people?

Are they though? Terrible people to themselves maybe.

 

[Marvin]

Are they though? Terrible people to themselves maybe.

Barb's a terrible person to Chris.

 

[Ravenor]

Some of the posts in this thread make it sound as if we should act as wardens of a CWC preserve. I don't have an opinion on that but the image of Chris bounding freely through a tailor built landscape of hoard, vidya, and golden age trolls is killing me.

I am not saying that, an then again I am... Chris is not the brightest of people once he loses the last big mooring rope attaching him to the real world Barb, Shit's going to unravel for him. While she is Toxic to him she keeps him at least partially in check, While she does it in a horrible way and only when it will effect her, she is stopping him from going Critial mass with the Crazy / Stupid shit he does, once that's gone we should only step in if it's going to seriously hurt him, to save him from himself.

Are they though? Terrible people to themselves maybe.

Chris, maybe, most of his shit can be attributed to a number of things, mainly being incredibly Dumb. Barb however is just a horrible person, ok there is worse far worse people out there than her but she isn't in any way a nice person.

Barb's a terrible person to Chris.

I agree with you 100%, was a shitty parent to Chris, an abusive custodian to him while he has been under her care. She has issues her self, that have gone untreated for a long long time it's no excuse for the way she treats him and uses him as some form of trained money to fetch her sandwiches an more crap for the horde.

 

[Male Idiot]

Some of the posts in this thread make it sound as if we should act as wardens of a CWC preserve. I don't have an opinion on that but the image of Chris bounding freely through a tailor built landscape of hoard, vidya, and golden age trolls is killing me.

It would be funnier than a zoo full of monkeys! Chris would be happy and everybody could watch and enjoy his wacky antics! I think if everybody donated it could be pulled off, expect for Chris's mounting paranoia. Even if all the forum members here donated a few dollars each month and somebody actually managed to set up a "Preserve" house for him, he would be too paranoid to move in and suspect a trap. Which I could not blame him for.

 

[Coldgrip]

I am not saying that, an then again I am... Chris is not the brightest of people once he loses the last big mooring rope attaching him to the real world Barb, Shit's going to unravel for him. While she is Toxic to him she keeps him at least partially in check, While she does it in a horrible way and only when it will effect her, she is stopping him from going Critial mass with the Crazy / Stupid shit he does, once that's gone we should only step in if it's going to seriously hurt him, to save him from himself.

Chris is not our responsibility to take care of. The only people who would have a responsibility to take care of him would be the wardens in a jail or prison if he committed a crime worthy of being incarcerated.

As for Barb, as long as Chris jumps when she says jump she doesn't care what he does.

 

[Holdek]

When I first saw this post, I thought maybe you were referring to Marvin, but then I saw you were addressing Skyraider.

That sorta segues into a point I wanted to make. Certain things trolls have done kinda have been done in frustration. Here's what I mean:

BlueSpike: I've made this point before, but I'll reiterate it. The general feeling is "BlueSpike is/was a little sociopath" and that he's pure evil for the stuff he wanted Chris to do. I knew BlueSpike well - I haven't heard from him in a while, he's mostly focused on his studies as he should (remember - it's not like he's going to eternally be 13 years old). I've played games with him, I've been berated by him, I've been insulted by him, he is a little brat at times. However, you have to kinda consider the circumstances.

BlueSpike was a 13 year old with maybe a dozen other people, who were significantly older than him. He was 13, everyone else was about 19 or 20, some people a bit older, some people a bit younger but he was still the youngest. He was the first sweetheart who could be "controlled" - he was willing to listen to what we had to say, Panda sorta worked but she's still sitting on a pile of content we'll never see if it actually exists as she pretty much took her toys and went home. There was significant pressure on him to talk to Chris like, every day. Imagine having to talk to Chris, every day. You might think it's an awesome opportunity but remember, you don't get to have an actual conversation with him, you get to hear him talk about how he wants you to visit him and have sex with him so he can stop being a virgin with rage and how you have to bear his children and you have to eat at a shitty buffet place as a fancy date. Plus BlueSpike had to endure several of those cyber sex sessions where he more or less had to deal with Chris masturbating to his voice. It would take a toll on anyone.

So when that final audio came along, it's so long I forget the exact circumstances, I sincerely believed he kinda snapped. He was just so pissed off at Chris, he just demanded that Chris burn his house down or shove a medallion up his ass. Here's the thing though - there was no way to capture any video footage BlueSpike saw. Afterwards, some of us asked him "Why the hell did you ask him to do it if you couldn't record it?" and he's like "I dunno." I believe in the released audio you can hear at least two people say "BLUESPIKE, STOP" during the audio when he tells Chris to shove the medallion up his ass. If it's any consolation though, the likely opinion is Chris just shoved it between his buttcheeks as he really didn't understand the difference between like, your buttocks and your actual anus. Again, none of this really justifies what BlueSpike did, but when you deal with Chris for so long, you might have a tendency to snap.

I think Kacey is a similar case as well. I don't recall her being a pleasant person to begin with, but I try not to bad mouth other people personally just because of some of the things they've done in the past. Anyways, while I think that part of the motivation of the berating of Chris was that that would be the only way he would listen, but I think part of it might have been she took it personally when Chris would say something to her and not do it. She took it as a personal offense and I think that's part of the reason why she was so harsh on Chris. Also again, the nature of having a conversation with Chris - you're not an equal partner in a conversation, you're expected to listen to Chris ramble about some stupid shit he thinks should be included in LittleBigPlanet or how it's crucial he gets laid soon so all of his problems can be solved. I don't think I've ever heard a conversation with Chris where he asks something like "So how was your day?" or "How are you doing today?" (please prove me wrong if there was).

Personally, I set extremely low standards for Chris. Maybe it's wrong but at least I don't get upset over something Chris does. I used to, but then I started doing that so when Chris says something outlandish or does something stupid, I'll be like "That's our Chris!". Chris doing something stupid is like a 5 year old doing something stupid - you don't get genuinely angry over something a 5 year old does, you might scold them but you realize they're a 5 year old and the bar shouldn't be set so high.

EDIT:
One aspect of BlueSpike I forgot to mention, mostly why I brought up the fact he was the youngest. I think part of it too was he wanted to impress the rest of us who were older, to be one of the "cool kids." Not too many 13 year olds get to be treated (almost) as equals by people older than themselves. I think part of the medallion thing was an attempt to impress us, though I think that just stress from having to deal with Chris played in as well. Someone in chat was skeptical that it was the only factor, which I can agree, but I'd say it's probably a contributing factor. I am however bringing up this point as I think that also played into effect why BlueSpike decided to ask to shove a medallion up his ass. I don't think BlueSpike is suffering PTSD from hearing Chris jerk off but I think having to constantly interact with him and having to get stuff that was amusing from him wore down his patience and that kinda made him snap.

This is kind of why law enforcement agencies rotate out undercover agents. Like Joe "Donnie Brasco" Pistone was an undercover FBI agent who was actually going to be a made in the mafia but his superiors pulled him in part because he was getting too sucked in and it was taking a psychological toll on him.

I guess there are two aspects of it. One is whether the person gets something (especially money) as a result of their celebrity lack-of-privacy. Recently Chris has begun to, and that makes me feel better about things. Maybe that is completely naive, but it is just my gut reaction.

The other is does the person wants it. Most "celebrities" want the good parts of fame without the negative parts, but that is not part of the deal. So instead they choose to have the good and the bad as opposed to neither. As you pointed out, Chris wavers between wanting it and not. Generally, when he really wants to be left alone by the world, he has been fairly capable of doing this. So that also makes me feel better.

The problem I have with your child-star example is this. A lot of children a subject to the whim of their parents. The proportion of children, particularly very young ones, whose parents choose their religion, their schooling, even their interests, hobbies and friends, is huge. So when you say child-stars don't make the choice and it has impacts on their life it is true. But that is the case for a lot of aspects of childhood. It's one of the paradoxes of modern society. Society highly values the idea that every child be given an equal shot to succeed. Yet we also highly value the idea that parents should make the parenting decisions. a lot of which signicantly impact the chances of success. I think there is a serious contradiction there which most people ignore.

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that there's a social compact where you deserve gain by putting yourself out to the public. Like, if you go on American Idol and are humiliated by the judges in front of millions of Americans, and later the clip is posted on YouTube for all eternity, well, that sucks but you decided to make yourself a public figure and made a gamble that it would turn out to your advantage.

The truth is, people can become famous, infamous, or just well-known for doing something weird.

I guess it's interesting though that now with the Internet, it's a lot easier to become a celebrity, and the questions about who "deserves" to be in the public eye are pertinent to everyone and no longer decided by the fourth estate.

I mean. No matter how you paint it Bluespike in the most literal sense was a child being groomed to sexually please a 30 year old man over the internet. The intentions behind it were certainly not typical but everybody seems to always gloss over that fact.

There's a section on his article on the CWCki that covers that very controversy.

I don't mean individually though, I mean like as a collective. From what I've gathered lurking the people on this board do more for him than any of his so-called friends. I doubt it'd get through, because nothing ever does with Chris, but maybe if he sees it from more than one person it'll finally click that "holy shit the trolls weren't lying or being slanderous, they really do genuinely care about me".

While funny, I hope the day doesn't come where his life is so bad he actually realizes it and misses the golden days of trolling instead of the rose colored high school days.

I don't think Chris can really think in those terms.