Undertale

[soy woah jaque]

Chapter 3 feels like it was made by a fan with how unoriginal, boring, cliche and uninspired it is. Tenna is definitely Toby's worst character IMO, it feels like he didn't even try

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

The only things I have to say about the spoilers is.. Is Carol using her own daughter to bring about this apocalypse for some reason? Like, yeah, it's pretty obvious the knight is Dess, but I'm wondering if Carol is a red herring here. I'll replay Chapter 4 sometime this weekend after work, see if I was just hallucinating because I stayed up until 4AM playing this.

Spoiler: My theory

I think Carol is trying to preserve/save Dess and the Knight is the result. They don't necessarily have to be working together all the time. Ralsei points out that most of the times attempts to revive Lightners as Darkners end up going horrifically wrong, and we see that with Statue Gerson. It's a bit of a strange thing to bring up/introduce to the lore if it isn't going to come back again.
And knowing Toby it will come back again, but Dess, Rudy, and maybe weird route Berdly are basically the only other chances we might get to see the same thing happen.
Carol from what Noelle says, has a psychotic obsession with preservation, even trying to preserve paper snowflakes a young(presumably pre-Dess death) Noelle gave to her. The symbology is rather obvious here, snow flakes are fleeting and paper is a weak material. Carol immediately takes it home and locks it up, she didn't care about what Noelle wanted, she just wanted to preserve it without caring what others' wished.
So I think, Carol trying to preserve Dess caused the current situation where she's become the Roaring Knight. Carol's plan to preserve Dess might also extend to all of the town, just like how Susie wants a story that will never end Carol might ultimately be planning to create a Dark World where her idealized version of Home Town remains eternal.

There's also other stuff in the prophecy, now I'm 100% sure that people in universe are trying to manipulate it. Even if fate is set and they live in a deterministic setting people will try to cheat the rules. Gerson seems to spell this out with his whole thing, especially when he talks about how the Prophecy in his books is different from the one in the Dragon's Blazer's games, and we also know the Angel Religion has their own version.
One big thing that Susie missed/messes up in her Dark World is the Prophecy. She accidentally scrambles the order, it goes.

1. "The Heart with Human Cage and Parts." Which is you the player, both the Vessel and Kris could fit the cage with human parts description but the Vessel is more literal.
2. "The girl with hope crossed on her heart." Shows a robed figure wielding a sword, ambiguous silhouette with a muzzle
3. "The prince, alone in deepest dark." Ralsei.
4. "And last, was the girl. At last, was the girl." Showing the act symbol which Susie' is associated with.

Susie probably wasn't originally the girl with the hope crossed heart, she's a stand the, the x factor in the story. Susie also seems to be given much more freedom of movement in the story, with Kris and Ralsei being stuck on wheels. Additionally the girl hero being discovered BY LOVE and how LOVE is repeated so many times can have a double meaning,

1. Romantic love
2. LOVE aka Levels Of ViolEnce

Both of which also suit Noelle better. Dess could also fit as she wields a sword/bat as the Knight. with someone else maybe having the role of the Knight orginally. Either way I think people are trying to manipulate/fulfill prophecy in a way that is advantageous to them. Carol trying to manipulate prophecy or being aware of it and having a special aversion to Susie also fits as she seems to be trying to keep Noelle from being the monster girl hero. Which fits with everything we've seem from her.

 

[Smack Patrick]

View attachment 7467947

Regarding the whole Susie x Kris, Susie x Noelle thing.
I think Toby's plan is for Noelle and Susie to come to a head at the festival and will ultimately wind up driving a wedge between Susie and Noelle, then Noelle and Kris. Which is gonna fuck with Kris and be the catalyst that gets him to start trusting us more, if we repair the relationship (which will be impossible in a HARDCORE DOE RAPE SHOUT OUTS TO /k/ Snowgrave route).

How I imagine the festival is gonna go:
>Kris and Susie show up together to pick up Noelle
>Noelle mad at Kris for being there (with the way Susie worded the invite, she thought only Susie would be there)
>Festival has Noelle trying to get rid of Kris, Susie having none of it (Noelle getting madder at Kris, Susie getting annoyed with Noelle)
>Kris wins/buys a price (Give it to Noelle, Susie thinks it a romance thing. Give it to Susie, Noelle thinks it's a romance thing.)
>either way, misunderstanding has Noelle premium mad, tells Kris to fuck off, Susie in turn tells Noelle fuck off
>you repair the friendships because Kris doesn't know what the fuck to do and this was the one thing he wanted to avoid
>Kris finally starts trusting you with his plan to double cross the knight
>there is no romance, you all agree to be friends
>every shipper drinks bleach
>Toby breathes a sigh of relief "Finally...."

Spoiler: This happens if you put 1225 tokens into the machine in Chapter 3.

 

[Strangolapreti]

Chapter 3 feels like it was made by a fan with how unoriginal, boring, cliche and uninspired it is. Tenna is definitely Toby's worst character IMO, it feels like he didn't even try

I like the motivation moving tenna, but the execution couldn've been a little better.
Really I found the whole policule thing was terrible but then i realized it was done intentionally so, I can go past the star walker joke but not the whole fucking reprise that comes on episode 4.
I want to believe toby fox didn't wrote that one joke, finds the person working for him that made it and squeeze the life out of him.

 

[Xerxes IX]

Both of which also suit Noelle better. Dess could also fit as she wields a sword/bat, with someone else maybe having the role of the Knight

Spoiler

The prophecy image about LOVE represents it by giving the monster girl a cartoon heart which looks like having a human soul, which is not only quite ominous together but brings to mind this theory that whatever happened to Dess, Kris tried to save her by putting his soul in her and that's why he has one controlled by the player instead. Saving Dess that way didn't work and is why she's stuck in the dark/is the Knight

It could also be less literal with Noelle being controlled by the player in the Weird Route via Kris.

So it looks like most of the characters you see aren't supposed to be the original members of the prophecy:

1. The original cage was most likely the Vessel, and the cage's role is to allow an outside actor to control the human soul/you the player to play as the human hero
2. One of the Holiday sisters was the girl, Susie is more of a wild card in the story who gets to choose her role
3. Ralsei is...Ralsei, but he's keeping quiet about the prophecy because he knows its being manipulated, he wants everyone to play their new parts
4. The knight might have originally been Kris like the theories but becoming the cage and Carol's attempt to use the Dark World to save/preserve Dess turned her remains into the knight instead. She'd rather her daughter become the prophecized knight than die for good

 

[soy woah jaque]

but the execution couldn've been a little better.

The base concepts of the chapter are interesting enough and have potential, but toby went for the most predictable low-hanging fruit and didn't go beyond the surface level themes.

I also hate how darkners are now suddenly referring to the light world in such a bold and direct manner. They refer to "the couch" and "the fire extinguisher" while being in a fantasy world where they are supposed to be creative interpretations of those things. Imagine if the darkners in Ch. 1 referred to card castle as "the closet".

He deadass made the boss for the TV chapter a talking CRT called "tenna" and called it "tv world".
Imagine if Queen was a talking laptop with googly eyes.

 

[Mai]

Chapter 3 feels like it was made by a fan with how unoriginal, boring, cliche and uninspired it is. Tenna is definitely Toby's worst character IMO, it feels like he didn't even try

I agree, why the fuck is more than a third of chapter three playing a shittier version of the game we’re currently playing? I don’t want to play some boring and annoying NES shit. I thought Tenna was fine and quite funny in places, but character wise not very inspired, sort of just like toned down Spamton. The end of the chapter picked up quite a bit and I really enjoyed it, but the beginning to the middle was a total drag.

 

[Big Shot]

I agree, why the fuck is more than a third of chapter three playing a shittier version of the game we’re currently playing?

Not to mention that we already got the "game inside a game" gimmick back in Ch2, plus wasn't the chapter supposed to be based around TVs? Half of it was a shitty zelda parody

If it wasn't for the fight against the Knight at the end it would've been nothing but a filler chapter

 

[invisibult plus+]

The base concepts of the chapter are interesting enough and have potential, but toby went for the most predictable low-hanging fruit and didn't go beyond the surface level themes.

I also hate how darkners are now suddenly referring to the light world in such a bold and direct manner. They refer to "the couch" and "the fire extinguisher" while being in a fantasy world where they are supposed to be creative interpretations of those things. Imagine if the darkners in Ch. 1 referred to card castle as "the closet".

He deadass made the boss for the TV chapter a talking CRT called "tenna" and called it "tv world".
Imagine if Queen was a talking laptop with googly eyes.

If I’m honest, details like these, the Mike fight, and the rose episode— just how long he took to make these chapters— make me think Fox is just tired of Deltarune. He sees it a job and wants to move onto something else. Fox sold himself a dream game. He either overestimated how long he and his fan base would wait for it, or spent so much time and effort on the details that he lost sight of the bigger picture. If he truly had the rose scene playtested, then I really want to see the demographics. Everyone thought it was a good idea? His Tumblr buddies thought “deflowering” was kosher? Allegory or euphemism, to me it reflects a desire to do more mature, symbolic writing. Except, fucking “deflowering” is such a heavy, long-used metaphor that he’d be better off using anything else. There’s too much baggage, and that’s without the marriage themes in Chapter 2. Show her monster soul cracking or something. Maybe a thorny vine entangling it. Something that reflects her loss of innocence other than “deflowering.” Him removing the rose was a bad idea if evoking rape wasn’t his intent, since that’s just confirmation. What was he thinking putting that in to begin with?

 

[Strangolapreti]

I agree, why the fuck is more than a third of chapter three playing a shittier version of the game we’re currently playing? I don’t want to play some boring and annoying NES shit. I thought Tenna was fine and quite funny in places, but character wise not very inspired, sort of just like toned down Spamton. The end of the chapter picked up quite a bit and I really enjoyed it, but the beginning to the middle was a total drag.

I have 2 theories.
I think toby used chapter 3 to stress test itself and the team by working multiple minigames, stuff like roulx fight and integrating them in battle; this put a strain on the lenght of the chapter itself and is why we didn't even got an overworld segment.
Alternatively, stuff was worked and made but something happened that forced toby and team to scrap a lot of content and patch together what they had left.
I also believe that Chapter 4 is much less meaty in term of content and writing exactly because they were aware of chapter 3 being lackluster on many parts.

If it wasn't for the fight against the Knight at the end it would've been nothing but a filler chapter

I kinda agree, but even then, there are a few interesting details about Kris revealed in chapter 3:
During the small quizzes in part 1 sometime I noticed him coughing and automatically point at the right answer, such as the question about asriel favourite videogame character, while playing the last hidden game, killing mini-susie and mini-ralsei causes kris to look away when he pressess the buttons, implying that he does cares about his friends.
It fleshes the character out a little.
I'm not gonna slobber over the weird ruote thing with mini-noelle freezing people like every theory crafter is already doing tho and the fact that such is not part of chapter 3 nor explaination, of why undyne is there, is also a sign that a good part of the chcapter was probably missing.
I have a love/hate relationship with the ranking system and the chapter in general, but let's face it, chapter 4 is the one that does most of the job here.

 

[Cucktry Roads]

Chapter 3 does feel like a filler chapter to be honest. If you cut it out completely, nothing would really be missed from the overall story, could even introduce roaring knight at the start of chapter 4. I think the main problem with the chapter was how minigame focused it was with you spending so much time in the zelda minigames.

Undyne being in the tv world can be explained easy and why the theory of torial/undyne being the two big characters in this existed. Kris/Chara slashed Toriel's tires and called the police at the end of chapter 2, so Undyne ended up going over and investigating.

Honestly, the whole rose thing should've been avoided entirely, dunno why it wasn't a bunch of thorns imbedding themselves into Noelle's soul.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

The prophecy image about LOVE represents it by giving the monster girl a cartoon heart which looks like having a human soul, which is not only quite ominous together but brings to mind this theory that whatever happened to Dess, Kris tried to save her by putting his soul in her and that's why he has one controlled by the player instead. Saving Dess that way didn't work and is why she's stuck in the dark/is the Knight

Spoiler

It also occurs to me now, what Ramb was talking about also alludes to the prophecy being manipulated. He says Tenna overwrote the original game, Tenna was made by kris and works for the night. There's an ice palace in Ramb's game like in Dragon Blazer's, and the actions you take in the game are reminiscent of the weird Route. The game is another version of the prophecy, planting the idea of it being messed with again in the player's mind.
Additionally the door to the Ice palace as a different version of the Deltarune that has a fourth triangle pointing/connected to the sphere. Continuing with the game also being another version of the prophecy: Gaster talks of Deltarune as being 'his' in the end to chapter 4. So what Deltarune is he talking about, the three or four triangle one?

Ramb's game also has You/Kris killing Susie and Ralsei. The Shadow Mantle and narration also talks about Kris being used up and if you continued from a Snowgrave save it'll accuse Kris of enjoying what you did to Noelle. Not much to say there, but it's extremely ominous.

Edit: Also it's ironic that Gerson tells Susie the character she would be is the Dragon the Heroes have to defeat AFTER King. In his story she ended up being the true villain of Chapter 1, but now that she's here he's pushing her into being the girl with a hope crossed heart.

Edit2: Turns out there's a secret Z-Tier room that has an unplugged phone in it... It looks like the S-Tier room. I don't know what to make of that, we know Carol is probably the voice on Kris' phone, she's the one that comes after the voice says it's coming to here, she has the same typing/speech quick "OF. DOING. THIS." and she calls kris about the festival in the Snowgrave route version of Chapter 4, which is where the Knight needs another fountain opened up the next day.
But why would she be make Spamton into a schizo and why would she tell Ramb about the old version of the game Tenna overwrote? Of course it could still be Gaster, he associated with phones as well.
The Knight probably isn't the caller, since the King says the Knight instructed him through Jevil, it had no contact with Queen. The one person it was actively working with, Tenna, it met in person alongisde Kris if Tenna's dialogue in Ramb's game is anything to go by.

Dess being the OG hope crossed girl also fits way better with the Lyrics to the Guitar Hero mini game, as is, it doesn't make sense for any of the cast to be singing it. Ralsie also censors the lyrics when they aren't even profane.

 

[soy woah jaque]

If I’m honest, details like these, the Mike fight, and the rose episode— just how long he took to make these chapters— make me think Fox is just tired of Deltarune. He sees it a job and wants to move onto something else. Fox sold himself a dream game. He either overestimated how long he and his fan base would wait for it, or spent so much time and effort on the details that he lost sight of the bigger picture. If he truly had the rose scene playtested, then I really want to see the demographics. Everyone thought it was a good idea? His Tumblr buddies thought “deflowering” was kosher? Allegory or euphemism, to me it reflects a desire to do more mature, symbolic writing. Except, fucking “deflowering” is such a heavy, long-used metaphor that he’d be better off using anything else. There’s too much baggage, and that’s without the marriage themes in Chapter 2. Show her monster soul cracking or something. Maybe a thorny vine entangling it. Something that reflects her loss of innocence other than “deflowering.” Him removing the rose was a bad idea if evoking rape wasn’t his intent, since that’s just confirmation. What was he thinking putting that in to begin with?

The flower thing is just a dumb detail that got blown out of proportion by a streisand effect because of a few retards, I don't consider it that meaningful.
It's possible that Toby is just cucked from some type of PR marketing team or nintendo and they told him to remove it. (If he did willingly remove it himself then he's stupid) If kris does actually rape noelle then it wouldn't make sense to remove it, so he's either backpedaling on his own story decisions (I doubt it) or just trying to clarify what actually happened (but streisand effect).

 

[invisibult plus+]

The flower thing is just a dumb detail that got blown out of proportion by a streisand effect because of a few retards, I don't consider it that meaningful.
It's possible that Toby is just cucked from some type of PR marketing team or nintendo and they told him to remove it. (If he did willingly remove it himself then he's stupid) If kris does actually rape noelle then it wouldn't make sense to remove it, so he's either backpedaling on his own story decisions (I doubt it) or just trying to clarify what actually happened (but streisand effect).

It’s just baffling to me because, with the people he associates with, no one thought this would cause a Streisand Effect? Whether it was his choice, Nintendo’s, or a PR team’s, it could’ve been avoided.

 

[soy woah jaque]

Chapter 3 does feel like a filler chapter to be honest. If you cut it out completely, nothing would really be missed from the overall story, could even introduce roaring knight at the start of chapter 4. I think the main problem with the chapter was how minigame focused it was with you spending so much time in the zelda minigames.

Funnily enough the zelda minigames grew on me after a while, it's mainly the lackluster setting, story and characters that bothers me. I don't even mind a filler chapter as long as it's interesting and unique, but it isn't

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

Tbh I've grown to dislike Sans between undertale and deltarune, honestly can't really care about him and he's not that funny without his brother or someone like Susie to bounce off and his teleporting shit had overstayed its wellcome too.

I will echo @Deus Exica 's sentiments here:

I have never really gotten why Sans was so popular. He's a nihilistic fat guy who keeps making vague threats towards you up until you stab his ass to death in genocide. His relationship with Toriel as a romantic thing feels extremely forced, and he is just a straight up dick in Deltarune.

Killing him is pretty much the only murder in Genocide I don't regret at all.

There's a scene in Wolfen(((stein))) New Goyimder where you murder Frederich Koeller with a chainsaw, but before that, you punch him various times to the chair. I would love to see Frisk do the same to Sans the same way in Genocide as the fuckwit stops dodging your attacks, you finally start punching the fuck out of him and you see his skull start cracking and his grin turns into a frown. I absolutely HATED Sans since day 1 of the game, and I hope more people do so. /rant

 

[Rudolf's Friend]

The Doe looks oddly familiar, resembling a certain professional wrestler who was also raped in the summer of 1992.

 

[General Emílio Médici]

I have no idea what is going on and at this point I am too afraid to ask

Sidenote: why is it so hard to find this song? YouTube seems to have deleted most uploads of it, even soundcloud had links deleted. Fuck this gay internet.

 

[Rabbi Palpenstein]

Oh for fuck's sake, I'm still mad about Skullgirls.

How the fuck does this cunt keep getting work, outside of tranny circlejerk circles the changes to Skullgirls was near universally hated

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

I will echo @Deus Exica 's sentiments here:

There's a scene in Wolfen(((stein))) New Goyimder where you murder Frederich Koeller with a chainsaw, but before that, you punch him various times to the chair. I would love to see Frisk do the same to Sans the same way in Genocide as the fuckwit stops dodging your attacks, you finally start punching the fuck out of him and you see his skull start cracking and his grin turns into a frown. I absolutely HATED Sans since day 1 of the game, and I hope more people do so. /rant

Personally, I didn't mind Sans at first, but it's taken Toby so fucking long to get to the mystery at the core of the character combined with "haha, funny fakeout" that I've just stopped giving a fuck about him.
Like, sure, he's nihilistic because he knows about determination and whatever the fuck so he doesn't bother trying because he knows it will be reset.
But how the fuck does he know that?
Toby has taken so long to even start to give an answer that I don't really care anymore.