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There's also the fact that Malcador may or may not have put the idea of causing a civil war between the primarchs in Big Es head after they got yeeted into the warp as a backup plan instead of relying on the custodies like with the thunder warriors, although side note I swear there was a short story where it was implied Emps had other sigilites working with him (think it might of been Two Metaphysical Blades).

Another theory I've seen around Malcador is he didn't kill the II and the XI primarchs but had them hidden in stasis some where as a "in case of emergency: break glass" option since iirc its implied that their legions got absorbed by the fists and the ultramarines and regardless of why they they where erased form the record, most agree that it probably wasn't chaos.
Not sure about the first, but from my understanding the II and XI got seriously fucked up in the Rangdan Xenocides to the point both the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves (yes, both of those guys) got called in to clean up afterwards. The Rangdans were known as the Cerabvores, or potentially Brain-Eaters, so according to 4chan and /tg/ the most likely explanation is that the II and XI got turned somehow in either the First or Second Xenocides, the I and VI sent to clean the mess up after the Third, and any survivors who could be saved memory-wiped and sent to Guilliman. Prospero wasn't the first time the Space Wolves had fought fellow Astartes, after all.
 
There's also the fact that Malcador may or may not have put the idea of causing a civil war between the primarchs in Big Es head after they got yeeted into the warp as a backup plan instead of relying on the custodies like with the thunder warriors
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Malcador admit he lied that they had engineered and are prepared for the Heresy to comfort a dying friend?
 
@FUTUREMAN There was actually an official short story I read that came out in the leadup to Psychic Awakening that was almost exactly that, and presented through a series of personal logs. A bunch of orbital cops are forced to engage in more and more brutal crowd control tactics to deal with the throngs of refugees the Awakening caused and eventually a disguised Khornate cult among the refugees convinces them of the Emperor's brutality and how his golden throne deserves to be adorned with the skulls of heretics. The story ends with them hopping in bed with the cult to go spread "the Emperor's" message to new worlds.

Also the actual 30K stuff under the hood is a lot like that, just fucked up by poor writing. Emps started off with wanting to just unify mankind to put an end to shit and then a certain someone named Malcador put the idea in his head that he should call himself THE EMPEROR instead of just acting like yet another techno-barbarian. In fact, IIRC the man had been pretty damn instrumental in feeding into Emp's intentions and ambitions early on. Of course Malcador had betrayed the Sigilite Order of his that had been keeping safe mankind's knowledge throughout Old Night so it isn't like he's a particularly nice or trustworthy gentleman. Add in the stuff on Molech and IMO the most interesting twist would be if Malcador was originally a servant of Chaos intent on turning mankind's most powerful psyker into a servant of the Warp, but who wound up betraying Chaos in the end as Emps' own vision of a unified mankind free of the Warp replaced his devotion to the Dark Gods.
I want to argue that if Malcador was a traitor then he wouldn't have sacrificed himself on the golden throne and turned to ash with no soul remaining. But "the dude totally sacrificed himself for the imperium" is a common excuse to cover up traitors. On the other other hand, the dude already super died by Magnus to setup the plot point of sacrificing a perpetual to resurrect a super dead perpetual. On the other other other hand, that's usual Tzeenchian shit.
 
Yeah, Chaos should be best buds with humanity, given that it depends on humans to exist. Species-wide threats like the Tyranids and Necron should at least be at the temporary cease-fire level as far as the Imperium and Chaos are concerned. Really, there's no reason for basically every faction in the game to stop doing whatever they're doing to come and shoot at the Tyranids whenever they wander into the neighborhood. The Necrons are just off being spooky space skeletons and it's not too likely that they'll come fuck with you unless you're sitting on a planet with their stuff, but the Tyranids are absolutely planning on eating your family the first chance they get.
"Chaos being best buds with humanity"

like how a cartel/cult is best buds with the poor local town against the airstrike that's abt to raise merry hell (heh...) for all of them?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Malcador admit he lied that they had engineered and are prepared for the Heresy to comfort a dying friend?
It's debated wether or not the lie was about the Hersey or that the Emperor would catch her soul as she passes to the wap, remember Malcador effectively mentored alpharius and you know how honest the later is.
I personally think there was a plan in place for the Hersey but it was merely a backup and the lie was that they where 100% going to use it since I'd argue that aside from Angron and Mortarion, all the traitor primarchs where able to be brought back if not for Chaos.
 
Isn't ADB the sole champion of "chaos is gunna win regardless" mindset. Not careposting, I'm asking because the books (his in particular) point in that direction.
 
I want to argue that if Malcador was a traitor then he wouldn't have sacrificed himself on the golden throne and turned to ash with no soul remaining. But "the dude totally sacrificed himself for the imperium" is a common excuse to cover up traitors. On the other other hand, the dude already super died by Magnus to setup the plot point of sacrificing a perpetual to resurrect a super dead perpetual. On the other other other hand, that's usual Tzeenchian shit.
I said that he was initially a servant of Chaos but later on turned his back on them in favor of loyalty to Emps. Consider immolating himself and possibly his soul on the Golden Throne to be both the ultimate test of his loyalty and a sign of the Emperor's ultimate trust in him.
 
I want to argue that if Malcador was a traitor then he wouldn't have sacrificed himself on the golden throne and turned to ash with no soul remaining. But "the dude totally sacrificed himself for the imperium" is a common excuse to cover up traitors. On the other other hand, the dude already super died by Magnus to setup the plot point of sacrificing a perpetual to resurrect a super dead perpetual. On the other other other hand, that's usual Tzeenchian shit.
That reminds me of a dumb argument some people bring up that Malcador can be brought back into 40k.
The whole thing revolves around
-How the golden throne work and whether or not it runs on souls or pysker power
-Whether or not Malcador turned to dust while on the throne or after being taken off
-And how dead a perpetual has to be to stay dead.
We'll probably know if/when BL decides to cover it in the siege of terra, but until then we have some people hope/dread the sigilite will come back and make the inquisition great again or some stupid shit.
 
Isn't ADB the sole champion of "chaos is gunna win regardless" mindset. Not careposting, I'm asking because the books (his in particular) point in that direction.
I don't know if he's the only one, but they do seem to be walking that stupid idea back (thank God). In Godblight the Emperor torches a huge swathe of Nurgle's Garden, injuring him directly, while in Throne of Light Kor Phaeron is having visions of the death of the Chaos Gods and is genuinely worried they might lose completely.
 
There's also "Cegorach's final troll" wildcard from the harlequin lore, which heavily implies all pointy-eared bastards aren't as doom-fucked to die to Slaanesh as we were led to believe.
 
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Crusader Squad... done

As for all the discussion for the horus heresy.
My Tl;DR on the discussion is that there are more mediocre to bad books then good, but the good books are bangers.
There are legions that score and have awesome stories like the white scars, then there are the... salamanders.
Dont take the canon too seriously because the writers obviously dont.
Just pick and choose what you like.

For lorelets that just want to get through the heresy while trimming the fat and the shlock, my reading list is
Horus Rising to Mechanicum, Fallen Angels to Prospero burns, Deliverance Lost to Fear To Tread, Angel Exterminatus to Vengeful Spirit, Pharos, Path Of Heaven, Silent War, Angels of Caliban, Praetorian of Dorn, The Master of Mankind(you will hate this or love this), The Crimson King, Tallarn, Wolfsbane, Slaves to Darkness, Titandeath, The Buried Dagger.
 
There's also "Cegorach's final troll" wildcard from the harlequin lore, which heavily implies all pointy-eared bastards aren't as doom-fucked to die to Slaanesh as we were led to believe.
IIRC all the Harlequins (except for Solitaires naturally) are free of Slaanesh's curse thanks to forcibly expelling a Slaaneshi Greater Demon from their own bodies using sheer willpower, gambling their immortal souls in the process, unless they decided to retcon that out? Also Cegorach is a straight-up dick, as he's the one responsible for the Lady Malys fucking up all of Vect's carefully laid plans to contain all the nasty shit beyond the Gate of Khaine thanks to him giving her his "heart".
There are legions that score and have awesome stories like the white scars, then there are the... salamanders.
The Salamanders trilogy is surprisingly good, IMO. Any story that has a Chaplain breaking a Warboss and then picking him up over his head to yeet him into his own boys can't be too bad. Also has the Marines Malevolent being fucking dicks as weird semi-antagonists, but what else is new about those assholes?

No, seriously, that Chaplain is fucking badass. Wears his helmet 24/7 and constantly mutters litanies of hatred because he's that fucking angry, even to the point of his fellow Salamanders remarking on it when thinking to themselves. "Holy shit this dude is angry as fuck". Sadly he takes his helmet off for good at the end of the second book like a faggot.
 
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I went on a 40K binge these past months, here are the books I read and my thoughts.

Horus Rising - pretty good, though it suffers from a lot of the same issues that many prequels do in that it has to reference the cannon in frustrating ways. It stands well on its own though.

False Gods - I gave up about a third in. Boring, and knowing that there are 50 books in the series to come made realize it wasn't worth continuing. Easily the worst one I read.

The Infinite and The Divine - now this was interesting! I can see why it's so lauded. It's funny, full of action and details, the only real complaint I have is that it's too light-hearted for 40k. "In the grim darkness of the far future, two skeletons learn the true power of friendship."

The Twice Dead King: Ruin - I actually think this was even better than The Infinite. It makes it clear what necron society is like and what it actually feels like to be necron. I haven't been able to get my hands on the sequel yet but I'm looking forward to it.

The Lords of Silence - this is my favorite thusfar. The psychology of the Plague Marines and what it's like to be in Nurgle's hands is absolutely fascinating. So many great quotes. "At first, you tolerate it. Then you accept it. Then it becomes your identity." and "People ask me what I want. I want what I have. This, here. Our time is now."

Idk how many more of these I'll read, aside from Twice Dead King: Reign but I've enjoyed it. I know tie-in fiction is barely a step above fan fiction and I have better things to read, but I don't care, they're still good.
 
IIRC all the Harlequins (except for Solitaires naturally) are free of Slaanesh's curse thanks to forcibly expelling a Slaaneshi Greater Demon from their own bodies using sheer willpower, gambling their immortal souls in the process, unless they decided to retcon that out? Also Cegorach is a straight-up dick, as he's the one responsible for the Lady Malys fucking up all of Vect's carefully laid plans to contain all the nasty shit beyond the Gate of Khaine thanks to him giving her his "heart".

The Salamanders trilogy is surprisingly good, IMO. Any story that has a Chaplain breaking a Warboss and then picking him up over his head to yeet him into his own boys can't be too bad. Also has the Marines Malevolent being fucking dicks as weird semi-antagonists, but what else is new about those assholes?

No, seriously, that Chaplain is fucking badass. Wears his helmet 24/7 and constantly mutters litanies of hatred because he's that fucking angry, even to the point of his fellow Salamanders remarking on it when thinking to themselves. "Holy shit this dude is angry as fuck". Sadly he takes his helmet off for good at the end of the second book like a faggot.
I was talking specifically about LEGIONS in the Horus Heresy. Not every Salamanders book ever written.

Isnt it magical that when you plan your scheme you magically somehow dont own ANY of the paints for it and you end up having to pay 80 bucks for it.
 
Pure knights dont work in a game that favors holding objectives.
I could see a War Dog / Armiger heavy list doing alright, though you likely will never see top table. The real appeal of Knights is the big guys though, and yeah - you'll struggle to hold objectives if you lean hard into those.

That said, the people I play with have pretty much only played ToW games since the cards came out, and getting new (and interesting/unpredictable) secondaries as you score the ones you have makes a lot of armies competitive that wouldn't be in tournament play.
 
I could see a War Dog / Armiger heavy list doing alright, though you likely will never see top table. The real appeal of Knights is the big guys though, and yeah - you'll struggle to hold objectives if you lean hard into those.

That said, the people I play with have pretty much only played ToW games since the cards came out, and getting new (and interesting/unpredictable) secondaries as you score the ones you have makes a lot of armies competitive that wouldn't be in tournament play.
For what it's worth, an all-War Dog House Vextrix list did reach the top table of a 76-player GT last weekend, although it only ended up placing second overall. It turned out that 13 War Dogs were enough to play the board.
 
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