Warhammer 40k

[Spilled Spaghett]

warhammer needs to be played with the latest edition and every rule change, you're not allowed to deviate even an inch. no older edition, no other games with the same fucking models and the same fucking lore. it's mindboggling.

The difference is that you can play modded minecraft alone, and if other people don't agree to your set of rules that's fine you can still enjoy the game to its fullest extent. Warhammer not so much. Even in DnD homebrew rules are easier because there's less of them, and since there's a DM they're the only one who really has to deal with most of it. That and the nature of roleplay means that outside of combat there aren't a ton of hard rules which forces players to make things up as they go. Not to mention both games are cooperative. Any rule that is under or overpowered doesn't negatively effect anyone's experience.

Warhammer needs to be clearly defined in order for a game to even happen. If you want to be able to pick up and play with anyone you need a clear set of rules that you both already know and don't need to negotiate. Warhammer is generally a zero-sum game. Any rule that's fun or favor one player comes at the cost of fun for the other. That's why so people are focused on balance and using the most recent edition. It's less GW dick sucking and more people trying to just be on the same page as everyone else, and trying to avoid games where only one player is having any fun.

 

[p1138]

The difference is that you can play modded minecraft alone, and if other people don't agree to your set of rules that's fine you can still enjoy the game to its fullest extent. Warhammer not so much. Even in DnD homebrew rules are easier because there's less of them, and since there's a DM they're the only one who really has to deal with most of it. That and the nature of roleplay means that outside of combat there aren't a ton of hard rules which forces players to make things up as they go. Not to mention both games are cooperative. Any rule that is under or overpowered doesn't negatively effect anyone's experience.

Warhammer needs to be clearly defined in order for a game to even happen. If you want to be able to pick up and play with anyone you need a clear set of rules that you both already know and don't need to negotiate. Warhammer is generally a zero-sum game. Any rule that's fun or favor one player comes at the cost of fun for the other. That's why so people are focused on balance and using the most recent edition. It's less GW dick sucking and more people trying to just be on the same page as everyone else, and trying to avoid games where only one player is having any fun.

This. If I go to the game store I don't want to spend 45 fucking minutes with another potential player interviewing eachother like we're doing a damned negotiation for something before even playing a game that's going to take 2-4 hours. "latest rules? ok we both know what's going on" It's simple. And that's before getting into the busted bullshit that was basically the entire game prior to GW attempting balance.

Bad codex? Fuck you, you may not get one for another 7 years. Just toss your army in the trash and buy another.
Really good codex? Prepare for people to just say "nah, I'll play someone else" because they're sick of playing against your army even if they've never played against you before.
Broken model combination? Ok, back to negotiating what can be taken and what can't before even setting out terrain because there's at least a dozen gentleman's agreements required to keep the game playable. Oh you're not a local regular who knows the gentleman's agreements for the area? Too bad.
Arguments over terrain because the guy playing the gun line doesn't want shit blocking line of sight and the guy playing the melee army wants 90% of the board occupied by terrain so he doesn't get shot. No thanks.

I'm a grown adult with shit that I have to be doing, and shit I'd rather be doing. Spending time trying to figure out what game we're even going to be playing is in neither of those categories, and that's under the assumption I'd even be willing to play once everything is said and done. Now if you've got a tight personal friend group you play with regularly who sits around discussing your house rules all day, great. Not everyone has that or is interested in it. Just the same as nothing is stopping people from getting together and playing 5th, 7th, 3rd, or whatever their favorite edition happens to be. And that goes for WHFB/AOS as well, because hardly anyone was playing WHFB years before GW finally nuked it yet not a damned thing was stopping them from playing it after GW killed it and replaced it with AOS... and no one played until GW brought it back as The Old World.

Here's a couple of questions for the thread.

1. When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter. Got 40k models on a table, rolled dice, and played a game where the rulebook would have had "Warhammer 40,000" on the cover is what counts. Casual, tournament, apocalypse game in a basement with friends that you play a couple hours every weekend but has been ongoing for 3 months, makes no difference.
2. How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred? edit: Apparently this wasn't too clear. Games of 40k. Either 40k, apocalypse, KT, whatever. If it's not 40k, then it isn't 40k.

The reason I ask is because I'm genuinely curious. We've got a few people in the thread who paint models which is great. Some post their paintjobs, some don't. Some people who read the books, ok cool. But do people actually play? I'll even go first.
1. This past weekend. 2. Probably around 30 games a year. I know there's people on a grind that play way more than I do. Met a guy when 10th edition had been out maybe 6 months, and he was already on his hundredth game, no idea how people can do that.

 

[Swiss46]

1. When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter. Got 40k models on a table, rolled dice, and played a game where the rulebook would have had "Warhammer 40,000" on the cover is what counts. Casual, tournament, apocalypse game in a basement with friends that you play a couple hours every weekend but has been ongoing for 3 months, makes no difference.
2. How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred?

1. About a month ago
2. I try for an average of one game a month with my local friends. More if I decide to go to the game store for anything but battletech day

 

[Total Norman Death]

1. When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter. Got 40k models on a table, rolled dice, and played a game where the rulebook would have had "Warhammer 40,000" on the cover is what counts. Casual, tournament, apocalypse game in a basement with friends that you play a couple hours every weekend but has been ongoing for 3 months, makes no difference.
2. How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred?

1. Pick up game of Mordheim with a local autist, otherwise played the not!aos OPR rules last week - my brets vs buddies Kharadron because we refuse to play each others game.
2. Since I had a kid I'm lucky to get 3 - 5 a year, before that close to a dozen. Able to sneak in skirmish scale stuff a lot easier. Hopefully my spawn takes to it.

hardly anyone was playing WHFB years before GW finally nuked it yet not a damned thing was stopping them from playing it after GW killed it and replaced it with AOS... and no one played until GW brought it back as The Old World.

erm acktuhally it had a pretty healthy online community and was kept up by clubs. The total war games also generated a ton of interest in it. Both of these things got GW to make the ToW, that original announcement felt very rushed.

 

[Judge Dredd]

You can see the same thing with fantasy illustrations, like those done for games like D&D over time. I would spend more time picking example images, but I've spent too much time belaboring my thoughts on warhammer's artstyle enough.

DnD is a fantastic example in the opposite direction. Behold the beholder.
First edition

5e

There is no real argument here over which is "better" or "cooler".

There's classic grim dark art, but there's also a lot of goofy shit in old 40k, like old Tyranid warriors and carnifex. Even 3rd edition had complaints that Tau weren't grim dark enough, and those people are still crying 20 years later.

In DnD terms, this is like people complaining about "freakshit" races like Dragonborn and Teifling, bemoaning the abundance of furries and theatre kids who only play because of Critical Role and Stranger Things, waxing nostaligic and demanding that every game be strict tolkien where everyone is a peasant mud farmer who dies in a single hit. Only for those same people to turn around and talk about Darksun, Planescape, and Spelljammer were with their hippo (typo fixed) men with muskets and 4 armed beetle men.

In 40k, you GW basically have two options. Go back to the rough art of the past, which means first edition beholders and people whining about every new thing they do, or sticking with the slick cleaned up version. And normies aren't going to buy a game with teenage doodles on it. Fuck, just look at the mockery directed at the "goblin green bases" of 2nd or the "tactical rocks" of whatever edition that was.

I would disagree here specifically, I think what you're perceiving here is a combination of stylistic decisions and the lack of fidelity given by the fact that prior to 6th all 40k art was done with physical media.

Doesn't make much difference. You can do sketchy styles in a computer, and clean work in traditional.

Not to mention both games are cooperative. Any rule that is under or overpowered doesn't negatively effect anyone's experience.

Unless it trivialises the game, or removes options by presenting an obvious "correct" choice.

When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter.

If we include mini games in general, last month or so. I played Bolt Action.

40k? Whenever the last space hulk set was released.

How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred?

Not to beat a dead horse, but board games I would play at a twice a month club, plus the rare game with friends or family. I remember playing Warhammer Invasion with my board game group when that was a thing. They aren't wargamers though, but gateway games like Nexus Ops and Scythe get a lot of play, which is why I'm interested in Kill Team, Warhammer Underworld, and other games like Aliens.

 

[p1138]

erm acktuhally it had a pretty healthy online community and was kept up by clubs. The total war games also generated a ton of interest in it. Both of these things got GW to make the ToW, that original announcement felt very rushed.

And anywhere that tabletop gaming clubs don't exist like they do in the UK and presumably other parts of Europe, that means it's functionally dead with no one buying and no one able to get into it because there's no scene for them to even observe let alone join.

Also I specified 40k in my question, not OPR, not AOS/Mordheim/Trench crusade/etc.

 

[The tired cat]

Here's a couple of questions for the thread.

1. When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter. Got 40k models on a table, rolled dice, and played a game where the rulebook would have had "Warhammer 40,000" on the cover is what counts. Casual, tournament, apocalypse game in a basement with friends that you play a couple hours every weekend but has been ongoing for 3 months, makes no difference.
2. How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred?

1. 9th edition, then 10th. Casual games and few local tournaments at my local gamestore. Took part in a crusade one time. Casual game wise I think maybe 20 in total? An least 5-6 local tourneys.
2. That kinda fluxes, with the last years crusade, managed to play a total of 6-7 games in total.

 

[Farmholio]

If it's not 40k, then it isn't 40k.

My brother and I hate the new rules (for the Byzantine layout if nothing else) so we play OPR.
Grimdark Future
The rules are probably a little too simplistic but it's better than not playing at all because you balk. I get the feeling this exists because people wanted an excuse to get their toy soldiers out but didn't want to deal with figuring out what the hell is going on with the current 40k rules, in the vein of what you're describing. Plus, rules for unsupported factions.
Haven't actually played in a while because we've been on a board game kick, but when we do play, it's never the current GW rules set.

 

[Muad'Dick]

Here's a couple of questions for the thread.

1. When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter. Got 40k models on a table, rolled dice, and played a game where the rulebook would have had "Warhammer 40,000" on the cover is what counts. Casual, tournament, apocalypse game in a basement with friends that you play a couple hours every weekend but has been ongoing for 3 months, makes no difference.
2. How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred? edit: Apparently this wasn't too clear. Games of 40k. Either 40k, apocalypse, KT, whatever. If it's not 40k, then it isn't 40k.

1. 9th. Then dropped it after a month.

2. Prior to 9th I was playing 2-3 games of 40K a week on average. Now its just Necromunda, Rogue Trader and the odd game of HH. I wouldn't class Rogue Trader as 40K as it's so far removed from what 40K is now it may as well be an entirely different ruleset/IP.

 

[ZMOT]

Warhammer needs to be clearly defined in order for a game to even happen.

does "clearly defined" include warhammer rules?

anyway, that's why I later mentioned other rules systems. what makes warhammer rules "warhammer"? the terms? d6? obviously you don't want a "45 minute discussion" before the match, especially when you can have that during the match trying to interpret it some of GW's edge cases or contradictions, or when people try to "balance" it on the fly to keep the game going, only to then have endless discussions afterwards. talking to some people post-game sounds like fucking marriage therapy.

endless discussion is also not a problem of the rules, rather the tryhard WAAC mentality treating every match like a tournament game, complete with styrofoam ruins.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

1. When was the last time anyone actually played? Any edition, houserules, doesn't matter. Got 40k models on a table, rolled dice, and played a game where the rulebook would have had "Warhammer 40,000" on the cover is what counts. Casual, tournament, apocalypse game in a basement with friends that you play a couple hours every weekend but has been ongoing for 3 months, makes no difference.
2. How many games do you normally play in the course of a year? One? One Hundred? edit: Apparently this wasn't too clear. Games of 40k. Either 40k, apocalypse, KT, whatever. If it's not 40k, then it isn't 40k.

1. Models on table are very rare for me, but last was about a month ago. I visited my brother's who actually has good hobby stores and a Warhammer store. We played a 3v2 and got stomped because I'm shit at the game. Then we played at home a small scale game with some 3d printed terrain we bought. Majority of my 40k gaming is done on TabletopSim. Last game was two weeks ago.
2. Over the course of the year is tough to say, but I average one or two a month maybe again as long as you're considering TabletopSim 40k.

what makes warhammer rules "warhammer"?

The fact that they are rules printed in a big book called Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules, or downloaded from a website called Warhammer. I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. If your point is that GW is shit at writing rules that people understand then yes I agree. But when I say clearly defined rules I don't mean to say that the rules are well written, I mean that there are hard concrete rules that you follow. An RPG rule might make suggestions and give certain scenarios where you can choose to apply the rule. Warhammer tells you when a rule must apply and what you must do when it occurs. I'm saying the rules need to eliminate as much negotiating and house ruling as possible so that these marriage counseling sessions don't occur. I don't disagree that Warhammer fails this a lot of time but that is the goal. The resulting arguments are proof why the rules should be written this way.

As much as I have fallen in love with OPR this is one of the things that is holding it back from wider adoption. The rules are very clear and easy, but open enough to interpretation. There are also a ton of optional rules to mix up your games and tables to help randomly decide which to use if you can't decide. No one actually wants to do that outside of a friend group. That's negotiating rules and arguing over which rule sets should be included or excluded. It doesn't use as much lawyer speak as Warhammer which is great for learning, but not always great when the difference in wording may decide whether your centerpiece model lives or dies. For example it says if the majority of models in a unit are behind a sight-blocker that unit gets cover. What counts as being "behind" cover? 1"? 2"? Do I get cover from a chest high wall from 4 feet away as long as it's between me and the shooter? What if the shooter is standing against the barricade shooting over it? Am I not still behind the cover since I'm on the other side?

This is to say again I really don't believe this is an issue of tryhard tournament mentality ruining the game. I really think it's just a matter or both players trying to make sure they're playing the same game. Even outside of wargaming rules I think anyone would agree that people don't like to be wrong. If you are very sure that you're right, then someone comes along and tell you you're wrong people will fight. Doesn't matter what it is. People can't even agree on how to play Uno let alone Warhammer.

 

[Judge Dredd]

With Horus Herasy 3 all but confirmed to be released sometime this year, what will happen to Age of Darkness box?

I ask because at some point I want to buy it even if just for the minis. A tac squad, a terminator squad, and a dreadnaught bought separately already brings you to within spitting distance of the box price, so getting all the other contents of the box for basically "free" sounds like a deal to me. But I'm in no hurry to get it.

Related (and this is likely a long way off) whats the best "value" way to get primaris marines these days? Most of what I find online is "points per dollar" or making a meta list. Something like the Leviathan box would suit me fine.

(Ninjaed by Spilled Spaghett)

does "clearly defined" include warhammer rules?

Yes.

It's not that the rules themselves are somehow concrete and perfect. But that it's a language everyone knows. To go back to DnD as an example. One reason so many people refuse to play anything else is that 5e is a complex game. TTRPG nuts might find it simple, but to normies who's idea of a board game is Snakes and Ladders and Monopoly, it's really complicated and they don't want to read another 300 page tome and learn yet another complex game just achieve the same goals. The truth is that most TTRPGs aren't as complex as 5e is and can be taught in minutes, but 5e players don't seem to accept that.

In wargaming, One Page Rules is super simple compared to current 40k. So much so that I've seen battle reports where 40k vets get confused when playing it. "What do I roll to wound?" and wondering if they've missed something important when a 1500 point game is wrapped up in 45 minutes.

 

[The tired cat]

So, seems the new Ork detachment is already getting the ban hammer on several tourneys

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

So, seems the new Ork detachment is already getting the ban hammer on several tourneys

They simply can't handle the fact that green is the bestest.

 

[p1138]

endless discussion is also not a problem of the rules, rather the tryhard WAAC mentality treating every match like a tournament game, complete with styrofoam ruins.

Most of the time when I run into this, it's either a super casual player throwing a fit because they're losing their 50th game and I happen to be their opponent(not reading rules, not bothering to learn how interactions work like melee pile-ins, etc.), or they're the guy who is always 1-1 at an RTT desperate to not end up 1-2 for again the 50th time.

does "clearly defined" include warhammer rules?

As other people have said, it doesn't mean GWs rules are good. It means people can show up and already know what game they're playing.

With Horus Herasy 3 all but confirmed to be released sometime this year, what will happen to Age of Darkness box?

I ask because at some point I want to buy it even if just for the minis. A tac squad, a terminator squad, and a dreadnaught bought separately already brings you to within spitting distance of the box price, so getting all the other contents of the box for basically "free" sounds like a deal to me. But I'm in no hurry to get it.

Related (and this is likely a long way off) whats the best "value" way to get primaris marines these days? Most of what I find online is "points per dollar" or making a meta list. Something like the Leviathan box would suit me fine.

Probably replaced with a new box I would assume. If the rules get a revision it wouldn't make much sense to keep the existing box with the old rulebook in it.

And for getting space marines, discount boxes. The problem is that they're limited so looking to buy the space marine half of leviathan 2 years later isn't going to get you the same deal as if you had bought it in the first couple months. Same goes with Indomitus from 9th. That being said, because it seems you're interested in the space marine half and not the rest, they may still be out there at a reasonable price. Another source would be the Hachette magazines. Currently it's the combat patrol magazine, and I'm not saying to subscribe as that's a massive waste of money but as I recall you're in the UK and the Hachette magazines do actually get distributed to retailers there for individual sale(so you can avoid buying the ones with just paint pots and get the better deals). I know Forbidden Planet sells them online for 10 pounds an issue, looks like right now it's Eldar and CSM that they've got on the site but of course ebay sellers may also mean availability cheaper than retail still. When it's shit like an eldar wraith lord for 10 pounds instead of 40, or 6 eldar jetbikes across 3 issues for 30 pounds instead of 37 pounds for just 3, that's probably the best new on sprue bargain you can get for what they're selling.

Also with Adepticon starting today and Space Wolves and Salamanders being at the end of the last roadmap(after the chaos monogod legions) that might indicate some more of those boxes later this summer).

 

[PrimeRadiant]

We returned to RT last year. As God intended with a GM, mobs on the table and using random encounters/events. Honestly the best tabletop gaming experience I've had since I played it the first time around.

Are rose-tinted goggles involved? Probably. But its the most fun I've had with anything 40K related since the beginning of 8th.

Best game i ever had was a rorkes drift scenario we dreamt up where a small RT era space marine army fought a vastly larger WFB 3rd edition Ork horde. The complete compatibility of the rulesets allowed you some crazy shit, like space marines riding on catachan devils fighting a fantasy Chaos Legion from the Realm of Chaos books.

 

[HTTP Error 404]

So, seems the new Ork detachment is already getting the ban hammer on several tourneys

I heard it has some absurdly high win rate. 80%+? So yeah it's getting the banhammer until they can get the extra large nerf bat out.

 

[The tired cat]

I heard it has some absurdly high win rate. 80%+? So yeah it's getting the banhammer until they can get the extra large nerf bat out.

I do wonder if the numbers are actually that true, like the general buffs that detachement gives is insane, but I doubt it's a real 80%+ win rate.

 

[p1138]

I do wonder if the numbers are actually that true, like the general buffs that detachement gives is insane, but I doubt it's a real 80%+ win rate.

67% last weekend with damn near every ork player using it. And because of the detachment, it isn't like there's much to do to build against it so yeah it'll probably just get worse if allowed.

https://40kmetamonday.wordpress.com/2025/03/24/3-24-25-more-dakka-more-dakka-more-dakka/

 

[Judge Dredd]

Another source would be the Hachette magazines.

I collected those for a while. Problem was finding them was inconsistent, and in some cases expensive. £10 for 5 marines isn't bad. £10 for two useless paints, not a good deal. I think the consistency issues was in part due to people buying (or not buying) specific issues. People snapping up all the good deals as soon as they were spotted, or skipping bad issues (like the paints one) and newsagents not stocking it.

I just got around to building Infernos marines from it yesterday. I have opinions on them, but I'll spare the thread.