Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

[DudeWithTheFood]

I personally see where he is coming from, even if I don't entirely agree with him. A lot of anime-esque designs seem to fall into the most generic look possible, only taking in the surface level design without having a good grasp on having it look appealing with proper anatomy.

But at the same time, there's been a ton of experimental anime out there that completely goes against the grain and in some cases goes beyond just being anime. Ignoring those special cases in an animation degree is kind of hypocritical, considering animation is all about experimenting with the twelve principles to create something unique.

 

[SnowBall]

While I do see his point and can understand why he would react that way I wonder how this guy feels about the “Calarts style.” As bad as having generic shitty anime in a portfolio is if I were a professor and forced to choose between the two I would glady accept anime over the sauage limbed bean mouth Tumblr art style. Especially since modern western cartoons are equally guilty of the things he hates about anime.

I understand that shitty anime art is an issue with college art profolios but it feels a bit unfair to single out one style of animation when there are many others that are easily ripped off as badly. Yet again I am not a college professor so I know nothing about this sort of thing.

 

[Shokew]

If I can seriously say some things, regardless of sides involved...

Singling out anime for its faults isn't going to fix the Western side's obsessions at the corporate level, specifically, with (overly simple and cheap) style choices only Tumblr-fucks can be proud of.

Besides, anime and the West have usually collaborated with one another just fine in the past. Why is this a big deal, now - besides the Western half of the medium falling on some hard times, of course, is anyone's guess. Well, Other than this guy coming off like a complete bigot to one end of the whole medium.

In his shoes, I would pick the more refined style, which is stuff closer to, if not exactly like, the anime style. Just don't flood my desk with that, aim to show me something different with each portfolio. Only because I don't just want anime-looking fare, but if it does have a Western feel, make it stand out something fierce.

However, if it looks anything Tumblr-like, it likely needs to be rejected. Again, not because it's not anime (Again, Western styles can look good with enough effort put into them and we're simply not seeing enough of that nowadays.), but more because it simply does not look good nor good enough to appeal to what truly is just a small (and insanely overly-vocal and rather undereducated!) niche.

 

[AnOminous]

I kind of understand where he comes from. Imagine you get a lot of shitty anime-style art from people who want to take your class.

While it's pretty ignorant and prejudiced (not in the racist sense but the artistic sense), it's fun to see weebs completely lose their shit.

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

While I do see his point and can understand why he would react that way I wonder how this guy feels about the “Calarts style.” As bad as having generic shitty anime in a portfolio is if I were a professor and forced to choose between the two I would glady accept anime over the sauage limbed bean mouth Tumblr art style. Especially since modern western cartoons are equally guilty of the things he hates about anime.

I understand that shitty anime art is an issue with college art profolios but it feels a bit unfair to single out one style of animation when there are many others that are easily ripped off as badly. Yet again I am not a college professor so I know nothing about this sort of thing.

On top of that, If you look back at the decades, a similar issue applies:
1960s: Flat, Ed Benedict-esque animation being churned out by almost everyone
1970s: Scooby-Doo/Filmation style
1980s: stiff comic book style or early anime/western blend in shows like Inspector Gadget and Transformers G1
1990s: everyone tried aping off of either Disney, Bruce Timm or John K.'s styles
2000s: Anime inspired or 1950s UPA style, sometimes both mixed together
2010s: CalArts or Canadian.

While you could say that's more variety compared to just Anime (and it kind of is), the issue I have is that those were the most prominent styles of their eras. For someone like him to overlook that is pretty damn ignorant and feels like there's more than just the professional side of things talking.

 

[ILSH]

So without hyperbole or aggressive hate, could someone give me their honest opinion about if Steven Universe is a good show or not. I ask because I hear mixed things about it and hear that it has rather fucked undertones with so many of the relationships being abusive. Is this true?

It's good, don't listen to those people, the "political, SJW" stuff isn't as apparent as you think, in most cases not there at all. Watch for yourself and see.

 

[RG 448]

It's good, don't listen to those people, the "political, SJW" stuff isn't as apparent as you think, in most cases not there at all. Watch for yourself and see.

Holy shit, a reasonable and accurate assessment of Steven Universe.

 

[Ironic Impact]

So without hyperbole or aggressive hate, could someone give me their honest opinion about if Steven Universe is a good show or not. I ask because I hear mixed things about it and hear that it has rather fucked undertones with so many of the relationships being abusive. Is this true?

I was a fan in season 1, but the really bad pacing issues, half-assed worldbuilding, haphazardly placed plot threads, and poor characterization really soured the show for me more than anything political. I could go on for a while but imo the show's biggest problem is it's being led in different directions by several people with poor oversight. The show can switch between an emotional exploration of abusive relationships to Steven trying to wipe his ass to a war between worlds from episode to episode with no warning. You could blame these on the steven bombs but if the crew was smart they would pace themselves around them and focus on building on the plot threads theh already have rather than... whatever they're doing. The core issue is they don't have the slightest idea what they actually want to make and just do what they feel like at a given moment. Same issue that plagued Adventure Time really. Would be a fun watch if they could fix those but I feel like it's far too late for any of that.

Also characters cry way too fucking much for it to have any emotional impact.

Spoiler

Not really political but I think the show has some disturbing connotations that exceed anything political, like the weird fixation on fuck-I mean fusing, Pearl's infatuation with Rose, Rose's entire rebellion basically being a womanchild acting out against her mean ol parents, Steven arguably being a neglected child (bit of a reach but his situation is fucking weird), Pearl raping her friend, two children fusing (not too bad by itself but weird coming from Miss Edfucker). There's probably more that im forgetting, but how thematically inconsistent these things are and the fact that this show is for children really raises an eyebrow.

 

[Kyria the Great]

I was a fan in season 1, but the really bad pacing issues, half-assed worldbuilding, haphazardly placed plot threads, and poor characterization really soured the show for me more than anything political. I could go on for a while but imo the show's biggest problem is it's being led in different directions by several people with poor oversight. The show can switch between an emotional exploration of abusive relationships to Steven trying to wipe his ass to a war between worlds from episode to episode with no warning. You could blame these on the steven bombs but if the crew was smart they would pace themselves around them and focus on building on the plot threads theh already have rather than... whatever they're doing. The core issue is they don't have the slightest idea what they actually want to make and just do what they feel like at a given moment. Same issue that plagued Adventure Time really. Would be a fun watch if they could fix those but I feel like it's far too late for any of that.

Also characters cry way too fucking much for it to have any emotional impact.

Spoiler

Not really political but I think the show has some disturbing connotations that exceed anything political, like the weird fixation on fuck-I mean fusing, Pearl's infatuation with Rose, Rose's entire rebellion basically being a womanchild acting out against her mean ol parents, Steven arguably being a neglected child (bit of a reach but his situation is fucking weird), Pearl raping her friend, two children fusing (not too bad by itself but weird coming from Miss Edfucker). There's probably more that im forgetting, but how thematically inconsistent these things are and the fact that this show is for children really raises an eyebrow.

Thanks for the enlightenment on that front so basically too many cooks in the kitchen that are dragging a so-called children's show a million directions to where it goes no where. I say so-called because so many of the mentioned undertones makes me suspect that at one point this was supposed to be a more adult show, especially from all the anime references, but due to more adult animation not selling for reasons despite violent anime sells to the kiddos, it was dulled down. Then again, considering the storyboard driven storyline, I am not sure at all.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Thanks for the enlightenment on that front so basically too many cooks in the kitchen that are dragging a so-called children's show a million directions to where it goes no where. I say so-called because so many of the mentioned undertones makes me suspect that at one point this was supposed to be a more adult show, especially from all the anime references, but due to more adult animation not selling for reasons despite violent anime sells to the kiddos, it was dulled down. Then again, considering the storyboard driven storyline, I am not sure at all.

Why is “storyboard driven” supposed to be an insult?

A hell of a lot of the greatest cartoons ever made were storyboard driven.

 

[Kyria the Great]

Why is “storyboard driven” supposed to be an insult?

A hell of a lot of the greatest cartoons ever made were storyboard driven.

I guess it is because this current slate of cartoons are trying to make more complex stories, but aren't putting enough thought ahead of where they are going.

 

[howyadoin]

Why is “storyboard driven” supposed to be an insult?

A hell of a lot of the greatest cartoons ever made were storyboard driven.

I was confused why "storyboard driven" was used as a possible reason the show may not actually be more adult-oriented. However, I do think that there is some problem with the system being applied to Steven Universe, an arc-oriented show. Thing is, the storyboarders want the show to be more about themselves, leading to inconsistent character design (like Zuke's Lapis with messy hair) and storylines.

It would be a different story if the storyboarders were heavily supervised to make sure they follow the arc smoothly, but the show demonstrates otherwise.

 

[Ironic Impact]

basically too many cooks in the kitchen that are dragging a so-called children's show a million directions to where it goes no where.

I would say that, but moreso Sugar just doesn't put her foot down and make a plan, something that she almost certainly picked up working on Adventure Time. Cool ideas can come from a disjointed approach like that, but tales of abuse and genocide like they're trying to tell more deserve foresight than that, and that's where the problems lie. If she sat them down and tried to come up with a long-term plan for the show it would fix a lot of the problems. Really though they make some really weird decisions that should absolutely be reined it, like telling the same story about Ruby and Sapphire fighting and making up several times, episodes about Steven and some Beach City rando. Like I said they could work in a more episodic show, hell it doesn't have to be a zany comedy it could be like more grounded like Hey Arnold, but it doesn't work with themes as grand as the ones they want to write about.

 

[RG 448]

Thanks for the enlightenment on that front so basically too many cooks in the kitchen that are dragging a so-called children's show a million directions to where it goes no where.

It went in only one direction, and the focus was so firm that hints sprinkled in the background of season one from even the first episode allowed the fanbase to figure out what was going to happen over a year before it happened, and even what would happen in the following seasons. In fact, as of season 5, we’re still seeing the culminations of big reveals that they’ve been building and hinting towards since the show’s start. As far as the pacing, for a stealth epic space drama pretending to be your standard Cartoon Network quirky weird comedy, it was near flawless. It’s really something you need to watch for yourself.

 

[Kyria the Great]

It went in only one direction, and the focus was so firm that hints sprinkled in the background of season one from even the first episode allowed the fanbase to figure out what was going to happen over a year before it happened, and even what would happen in the following seasons. In fact, as of season 5, we’re still seeing the culminations of big reveals that they’ve been building and hinting towards since the show’s start. As far as the pacing, for a stealth epic space drama pretending to be your standard Cartoon Network quirky weird comedy, it was near flawless. It’s really something you need to watch for yourself.

I honestly hope this isn't a ploy to try and make me out to be some faggy person, I do hate being led on.

 

[RG 448]

I honestly hope this isn't a ploy to try and make me out to be some faggy person, I do hate being led on.

Just watch the show and form your own opinion.

 

[Shokew]

I was a fan in season 1, but the really bad pacing issues, half-assed worldbuilding, haphazardly placed plot threads, and poor characterization really soured the show for me more than anything political. I could go on for a while but imo the show's biggest problem is it's being led in different directions by several people with poor oversight. The show can switch between an emotional exploration of abusive relationships to Steven trying to wipe his ass to a war between worlds from episode to episode with no warning. You could blame these on the steven bombs but if the crew was smart they would pace themselves around them and focus on building on the plot threads theh already have rather than... whatever they're doing. The core issue is they don't have the slightest idea what they actually want to make and just do what they feel like at a given moment. Same issue that plagued Adventure Time really. Would be a fun watch if they could fix those but I feel like it's far too late for any of that.

Also characters cry way too fucking much for it to have any emotional impact.

Spoiler

Not really political but I think the show has some disturbing connotations that exceed anything political, like the weird fixation on fuck-I mean fusing, Pearl's infatuation with Rose, Rose's entire rebellion basically being a womanchild acting out against her mean ol parents, Steven arguably being a neglected child (bit of a reach but his situation is fucking weird), Pearl raping her friend, two children fusing (not too bad by itself but weird coming from Miss Edfucker). There's probably more that im forgetting, but how thematically inconsistent these things are and the fact that this show is for children really raises an eyebrow.

A better valid criticism of SU than I or any YT vidya on it looking for asspats could have made, honestly. It really does feel like a kid's thing trying too hard to be adult after too long and it only works so well for so long.

I think that this show would be so much better if some things were cut out (like all the filler that goes nowhere and does nothing special/interesting!), the show was allowed to get a little more violent (due to themes in question, like war.), and the pacing were faster, IMHO. Also, maybe cut back on all the anime references - it shows a real lack of originality after awhile. Adventure Time & Regular Show are guilty of abusing references in a lot of areas, too - but not as much as this show. Then again, out of all three shows... They aren't all that funny, either, which is even sadder, since they're all partially meant to be comedies (which would explain oh so damn much, actually, what with this show in question being the worst of the three at being legit funny, IMHO.).

I was confused why "storyboard driven" was used as a possible reason the show may not actually be more adult-oriented. However, I do think that there is some problem with the system being applied to Steven Universe, an arc-oriented show. Thing is, the storyboarders want the show to be more about themselves, leading to inconsistent character design (like Zuke's Lapis with messy hair) and storylines.

It would be a different story if the storyboarders were heavily supervised to make sure they follow the arc smoothly, but the show demonstrates otherwise.

I admit I usually don't want to sperg this much, but SU really is a show that would have benefited from just THAT - actual fucking supervision and some discipline against going off track, just to keep things in check. Especially since the story, or lack thereof being told here, is not meant to be handled in any episodic way. So much so that something tells me if there was both actual supervision & discipline in place, this show would have ended properly by now at only 2-3 seasons at most, but would still be a well-told story worth sitting down to, because everything's where it's at and there's also not so much filler dragging things down, either - again, IMHO.

 

[Shokew]

That's it - I need to stop talking about how I'm not a fan of SU for a good, long while... Let's change the subject, by telling me what you think of / just simply showing off this...:

Made by one guy on Newgrounds. I see some potential in it, myself. But I won't go any farther into it than that. As long as it avoids being 2deeporedgy4u, it should become a fun watch with later episodes, IMHO.

 

[IdaRita]

I know I'm late, but I agree this teacher's hate on anime is dumb and unprofessional. I think teachers should try to not force their preferences to students and Japanese school of aniamtion is a big part of industry. I like to complain on "Cal Arts" style, but if student who draw in this style has good anatomy knowledge, sense of movement etc. it should not matter. People starting university are usually 18-years olds. This is pretty young age and you are usually following favourite trends.

And, sadly, this teacher hating on anime is not bad in comparision to some teachers I know who hates on ALL more commercial animation and everything that is not some kind of indie experimental stuff.

 

[One Man Bland]

I know I'm late, but I agree this teacher's hate on anime is dumb and unprofessional. I think teachers should try to not force their preferences to students and Japanese school of aniamtion is a big part of industry. I like to complain on "Cal Arts" style, but if student who draw in this style has good anatomy knowledge, sense of movement etc. it should not matter. People starting university are usually 18-years olds. This is pretty young age and you are usually following favourite trends.

And, sadly, this teacher hating on anime is not bad in comparison to some teachers I know who hates on ALL more commercial animation and everything that is not some kind of indie experimental stuff.

I feel like the rational teachers don't hate anime by itself so much that they try to emphasize the importance of learning the fundamentals before you experiment in stylization, but there's a lot of teachers who take it too far and hate the style by default and there's a tony of students who take the former advice as a personal attack and screech "but muh style" and refuse to learn.

Though considering the said can be said for virtually any style, I can't help but wonder if some of those people who did take their teachers advice, put the anime on the back burner for a bit, and buckle down to learn proper anatomy first feel a little gypped considering other popular art styles that suffer the same problem of having hundreds of copycats that refuse to learn the basics typically go on uncommented.