Opinion What incels get wrong about women

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What incels get wrong about women​

The Pope is Catholic, bears shit in the woods, and new research shows that “men who identify as incels overestimate how much women want physical attractiveness and financial success” in a partner while underestimating the importance of traits such as kindness, humour and loyalty.

Forgive my sarkiness – but I don’t think we needed a study to prove that incels’ barometer for what women want is somewhat wonky. Any woman who has tuned in for any length of time to the incel philosophy (not to mention any straight woman trying to date) would have been able to tell you as much.

Short for “involuntary celibate”, the term incel has myriad connotations, ranging from risible stereotypes to the downright terrifying (incel ideologies have been cited in manifestos for mass killings, although the report suggests the ideology isn’t the main motivation).

Whatever end of the spectrum they fall on, incel beliefs boil down to a simple equation: women owe them sex, but they aren’t delivering. Never does it seem to occur to these men that it’s their attitude towards women that’s the problem – and reason no one wants to date them – rather than their looks or their money.

Not only do women remain with men during difficult financial periods, but also research shows that more and more US women are the breadwinners in their relationships. It’s also worth mentioning that, quite opposite from seeking the most handsome men, one study suggests women are happier with less attractive husbands.

Anecdotally, when it comes to long-term partnership, a sense of humour and thoughtfulness go much further than looks – my boyfriend is gorgeous, obviously, but I love him much more when he cooks a surprise dinner or makes me laugh than when he’s done 20 extra push-ups.

Despite this, incel communities instead discuss frightening ideas like state-mandated girlfriends as serious solutions to their predicament, believing that it would save them from the whole ordeal of dating (which would force them to treat women as human beings!). Why won’t anyone date me?! cry these guys, as they put their finishing touches to a manifesto for keeping women in cages. Truly, a mystery for the ages.

For a worldview that rails against the injustices faced by single, straight men, incel-dom sure does a good job of keeping them that way. The idea that women are only interested in the most preternaturally chiselled men and their bulging bank accounts must fill any guy who falls below the impossible (imaginary) standard with self-pity.

Women (or “foids”, short for “female humanoids” on incel forums), meanwhile, are seen as vapid idiots at best, and sex-slot-machines – into which you just have to pour the right amount of money and/or abs in order to cash out – at worst.

It’s hard not to feel frustrated by this state of affairs, partly because it seems so easy to straighten out; women have been writing books and articlescountering these toxic arguments, as well as offering more realistic accounts of what we’re actually looking for in male partners.

Sure, nice jawlines and money don’t hurt – but the idea that that’s what’s stopping an incel from getting a daterather than the frustration and resentment radiating from his every pore seems pretty convenient on the one hand, and totally self-defeating on the other.

With such a brutal understanding of interpersonal relationships, it’s perhaps no surprise that the study from the University of Swansea reveals incel mental health to be in staggeringly poor shape.

Hatred often comes from unhappiness, and I’d be depressed too if I felt as if the world was configured in such a way as to make my personal fulfilment impossible.

But the good news is that however dark the incel worldview might seem, it is a fantasy. Hopefully this new study, conducted by Dr Andrew Thomas and masters student William Costello will encourage incels to see women as human beings.

Say it with me: women don’t care about your cheekbones, we want to be seen as full human beings. That might not sound like much to ask, but it should be revelatory for the guys who are too busy griping about their facial structure to see the altogether simpler – and far more meaningful – truth. If it takes a study by a man to get that ball rolling, then so be it.
 
What I don't understand is why there's such an education/employment gap between men and women then. Like, if men know most women care about money/education (and the security and parenting capacity those things indicate), why are so many men lagging behind them in those domains now?
In regards to education, it's because more and more men are realizing that further education is a scam. Zoomers are seeing their older relatives leave college/university saddled with debt for a fancy sheet of paper, and still struggling to get a job flipping burgers despite that - the difference is that women are a lot more vulnerable to peer pressure than men, so they're much more likely to go into further education despite the low pay-off because "it's what everyone does, you don't want to be left out, do you?", while as guys are more likely to just ignore that pressure and do their own thing (whether that's learning a trade, the military, or just skipping further education entirely and going into a low-level job).
As for earnings, I'm not sure. Only real guess is that businesses are more likely to hire women to meet gender quotas, and more hesitant to fire them to avoid allegations of sexism. Though that wouldn't explain all of it.
 
In regards to education, it's because more and more men are realizing that further education is a scam. Zoomers are seeing their older relatives leave college/university saddled with debt for a fancy sheet of paper, and still struggling to get a job flipping burgers despite that - the difference is that women are a lot more vulnerable to peer pressure than men, so they're much more likely to go into further education despite the low pay-off because "it's what everyone does, you don't want to be left out, do you?", while as guys are more likely to just ignore that pressure and do their own thing (whether that's learning a trade, the military, or just skipping further education entirely and going into a low-level job).
As for earnings, I'm not sure. Only real guess is that businesses are more likely to hire women to meet gender quotas, and more hesitant to fire them to avoid allegations of sexism. Though that wouldn't explain all of it.
wait but if that's the case then it wouldn't really explain why women are increasingly outcompeting men in the workforce either would it? like it can't all be chalked up to affirmative action if they literally are more qualified/have more education in some high paid white collar area. I never really got the whole 'you just get debt for a piece of paper' thing because that's clearly only true for meme degrees - idk anyone who did a professional degree (law, finance, medicine, programming etc.) who didn't eventually pay their debt off and make decent money. Like the only two home owning demographics I know are those people and trades people, but the latter end up usually breaking their back or some shit 10 years in.
 
wait but if that's the case then it wouldn't really explain why women are increasingly outcompeting men in the workforce either would it? like it can't all be chalked up to affirmative action if they literally are more qualified/have more education in some high paid white collar area. I never really got the whole 'you just get debt for a piece of paper' thing because that's clearly only true for meme degrees - idk anyone who did a professional degree (law, finance, medicine, programming etc.) who didn't eventually pay their debt off and make decent money. Like the only two home owning demographics I know are those people and trades people, but the latter end up usually breaking their back or some shit 10 years in.
> Women get Affirmative Action and Black Rock funded programs such as ESG and DEI to make them valuable to companies regardless of skill.
> Said programs also favor minorities in bulk, so you are more likely to be hired if you are black, trans, or any host of usual special groups, once again, regardless of skill.
> Immigration, H1Bs, and remote work ports in metric tons of exploitable labor that under cuts American workers. You can pay an Indian or illegal like 1/5 of the average salary.
> CEOs hardly face any consequences and are basically guaranteed a fat check even if they completely destroy a large company. Many then taking in the above for Black Rock checks, along with nepotistic hires or potential sex partners given that there is no reason to uphold standards.
> HR now staffed with women, minorities and trannies who only hire women, minorities and trannies.

Basically, America is now running on a system that runs completely antithetical to the hard work narratives of old. We are running into a major competency crisis that is very evident with the drastic turn many industries, more specifically tech, are now facing. The mass layoffs since 2022 are good evidence as to what is happening.

Women out compete men as there is nothing to compete with. Many of the tech savvy men were either run out or fired in these big companies like Google to be replaced with a token. You can see videos on TikTok of women in companies like Google where they get payed massive salaries to eat and check an email twice a day. They are not outpacing in a traditional sense, the standards have just fallen in a weird attempt to diversify so banks will give better credit scores.

In such a system, a degree is a meme. It doesn’t matter as your ability to move up is based on who you know or what identity you bring. The only industry that may still work on merit is likely medical. Tech has certainly fallen, and the trades are likely next given that companies want to just import people.
 
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Regarding employment opportunities for women, Prof. Ed Dutton has talked about how education has been redesigned to cater to females. The classroom is a much more social environment than ever before. Kids sit and work in groups now whereas in decades gone by they were expected to work independently. Grading methods have been changed too - more coursework, more presentations, fewer exams etc. It all puts the classic high-IQ antisocial nerd boy at a disadvantage. (Although, even these approaches to grading are being thrown out now to accommodate the next generation of black neurosurgeons.)

Dutton has also said that the true difference between average male and female IQ is actually around 7 points but that the tests are purposefully weighted more heavily in the areas that women do better in, bringing the average IQ gap to a more presentable 2 points. I don't know if this is true but it certainly sounds believable given the observable feminisation of the classroom.
 
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an explosion of bonsai hobbyists would be kinda dope
I was also hoping to see an explosion of hobbyists, but the hobbies involved cars, rope and digging graves.

Here's my question though. If this is all natural and just women's natural preferences then how come the loneliness, alienation, and record numbers of people nor marrying or reproducing is unprecedented?
We didn't insulate women from the consequences of bad decisionmaking. Until very recently (I'm talking a century or less depending on the country), if you couldn't get a man to marry and provide for you, you got to live a sorry existence as a burden to your family half the time and death by freezing or starvation for the other half. So from the get-go, you had to succeed at least on a 'can score one man' level to survive. Then once you had a husband, if you decided to just destroy your marriage and cheat on your husband and then try divorcing him, the judge would either throw out your case, placing you in the care of a now-rightfully-enraged husband who is within his rights to beat the shit out of you, or grant full custody of the kids to the husband and also not grant you any alimony.

So in the latter case, even if the judge was willing to allow this divorce to happen, your prospects for life afterwards were more death by starvation or freezing.
>Wait, if I were to divorce my husband and get thrown onto the street, what's stopping me from just getting a new husband/boyfriend and living off that one instead?
Good luck finding a new boyfriend willing to support your used-goods-ass in a society with intact families. All those incels and other single men you can fall back onto today, their equivalents back then were all happily married, with wives who cared for them and children that were biologically their own. One aspect that turns these dynamics into a feedback loop is that when men aren't lonely, women (at least the single ones) have less men to choose from.

When I look at a lot of failure men I know it's because they basically fried their dopamine receptors on porn/video games/alcohol, to the point where they don't really try to achieve anything in school/work/their personal lives. I've never really met women prone to these sorts of addictions - why is that?
They do, but we - and this includes you specifically - just put it aside in their case and pretend it isn't. The thot that's getting drunk every weekend and has no motivations in life other than living for the next coom with some dude she met in a bar, you think her dopamine receptors aren't fried? You assume that just because her cooming involves more social interaction, that it is somehow less of a coom.

It is not.
(Also that's not even opening the can that is fujos)

And the video games and alcohol are a form of escapism, it's men's way of coping with a genuinely grim set of prospects they are handed, with no means short of six-to-seven-digit tier mass murder to fix them.

Your posts on this topic are so monumentally retarded and just generally out of sync with reality. It's the textbook definition of coping. No one thinks we will live in the world of Mad Max when this is done,
I do. It won't be as cool as some of those postapocalyptic franchises make it out to be, because the very air and soil will be laced with toxic waste, petrol will be way too scarce for action-packed chase scenes to happen and nobody will know how to make anything beyond the most basic, hand-forged guns. And even the latter is assuming you can find the gunpowder to use those. Oh and not to mention the cannibalism. Cannibalism will be a staple for at least 20 years after the fall.

wait but if that's the case then it wouldn't really explain why women are increasingly outcompeting men in the workforce either would it? like it can't all be chalked up to affirmative action if they literally are more qualified/have more education in some high paid white collar area
Why not both? It's called a compounding effect. Skewing admissions and designing college around catering to women already changes the overall outcome. Then hiring policies in private companies take this already bad set and make it worse, and then HR departments' gleeful eagerness to get men fired wherever possible makes it even worse than that. So you have multiple different passes that the current landscape of workers has to go through, each of which worsen the situation further.
 
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We didn't insulate women from the consequences of bad decisionmaking.
To be fair, this is sort of a general problem that can extend past women. There is definitely a subsection of men that can practically get away with anything either because women find them attractive or they are some oppressed minority.

Look at 90% of America’s elite, all of which partake in infidelity, abuse, massive drug use, or much worse offenses like going to a pedo island. Then we have cities letting off criminals in an effort to not be racist and be more understanding of people’s situations. Finally, we have the Chads that are the enablers of said behavior yet consistently get to walk away and have someone else raise his kids.

In truth, the only people held accountable for anything are pretty much the average guy who wants to do nothing more than work and uphold a structure.
 
Re: Male lack of success
Most men under age 35 have been substantially and meaningfully demoralized. Society is screaming at the top of its lungs that they aren't welcome. This starts from an early age with preschool teachers treating boys like defective girls and ends with seeing higher education and the economy say "lets help everyone but you".

The killing blow of this demoralization campaign is the same thing that creates the incel: women have gone completely mask-off while maintaining the positive media machine. Plausible deniability and a little delusion were key to making lots of marriages work.

In previous decades most men sincerely believed a woman could love him for "him"; concepts like hypergamy were misogyny not reality; that a woman could have had sex with 100 men before you was urban legend. These are then combined with a society that has given women the ability to financially eviscerate a man through divorce, socially castrate him through social media and legally lynch him with false accusations. I cannot understate the mental whiplash many men experience when they confront the truths women have shown us in the last 2 decades. That's why its the "nice guys" that go full incel - the ones that truly believed all women are wonderful and were true believers in the pro-woman messaging that exists across media.

With all of this happening, the young man checks out. Whats the point of becoming a high earner if thats reality? Why go to higher education? Why do anything at all except chase dopamine? Hence the alcoholic pill-popping video game addicted NEET lifestyle.

These people are so demoralized they are comittting a slow reckless suicide in all the ways that matter. Anybody who thinks this isnt an issue is BRAINDEAD.

Lads who aren't demoralized, reach out to younger men unironically. Some of them just need somebody to counterbalance the constant demoralization.
 
It's not a problem. I give absolutely zero shits if some dude is incapable of figuring out how to interact with the opposite sex. It is not a problem for literally anyone else in the world except for the dude who isn't getting what he wants and the girls he harasses.

If you're reducing this down to "hurr durr you dunno how to tAlK tO Gurlz" Then I can't help you.
 
Well what is it then? Nobody is entitled to have whoever they want like them. If someone is an incel the problem is 100% either the way that person acts or the way that person is.
It's a nexus of maladaptive economic, social and some personal factors that have actually discouraged men from going out to find a female to creste a family with and sustain society in the long term. This is very bad. This isn't some creep or some nerd not knowing how to talk to girls. It's a demographic crisis in process that is causing entire countries to be projected to lose half of their population in the next 50 years like Japan, Korea, the US, the UK, France and pretty much every major Western or Western-adjacent country.



If you can't understand why that's extremely bad and we should be doing things to rehabilitate these people and get them back into society so they can c9ntribute to it and have kids, etc, then you might actually be retarded. Literally Stone Age cavemen and Roman/Greek/medieval nobles would be freaking the fuck out if something similar were happing on a comperable scale in their terrirories. This is societal suicide in slow motion. We might havw missed the boat, but we're in for some rough times if we don't course correct NOW and get thus shit under wraps. And I'm not talking about something retarded like state-mandated gfs or killing Chads or whatever. I mean, creating the means for an average man to get relatively happily married and have a lot of kids.
 
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It's a nexus of maladaptive economic, social and some personal factors that have actually discouraged men from going out to find a female to creste a family with and sustain society in the long term.
That's not an incel then. The key thing about incels is that their celibacy is involuntary. What you describe is a voluntary response to society and not the same thing.
This is very bad. This isn't some creep or some nerd not knowing how to talk to girls. It's a demographic crisis in process that is causing entire countries to be projected to lose half of their population in the next 50 years like Japan, Korea, the US, the UK, France and pretty much every major Western or Western-adjacent country.
But I literally don't care about any of that.
If you can't understand why that's extremely bad and we should be doing things to rehabilitate these people and get them back into society so they can c9ntribute to it and have kids, etc, then you might actually be retarded
There's nearly 8 billion people in the world. Something tells me the human population is going to be fine. But I think what you actually mean is 'oh noes now there's going to be too many brown people.' Too bad so sad. Empires collapse and societies change. It's been that way for thousands of years and it's going to keep being that way.

I mean, creating the means for an average man to get relatively happily married and have a lot of kids.
But this is possible. The thing I've noticed about people who bitch about this kind of shit is, they have no job or work a shit job, they spent their free time watching tv, playing videogames or other time wasting shit like that, they have no motivation to improve their skills with useful shit or improve their lives in anyway, they don't want to work hard at anything, they want everything they want handed to them without having to put any effort into anything.

Life takes work. Relationships take work. Some of the hardest shit I've done in my life was work to improve my relationship and my life. Being married is hard. There's lots of ups and downs and honestly some pretty fucked up things can happen in relationships. People these days can't handle that shit. They can't handle the slightest fucking hardships or unpleasantness.

The problem is my generation and zoomers are bunch of soft, spoiled, self entitled pieces of shit who can't handle the idea of having to work for the things they want.

Honestly the very concept of incels is the epitome of self-entitled arrogance.

So no, I don't give a fuck that two generations can't git gud in life and blame their parents and society for being fuckups.
 
What you describe is a voluntary response to society and not the same thing.
If you aren't able to get laid and it's not your fault, that is by definition involuntary.


But I literally don't care about any of that.
I really don't care what you think. i'm talking about the nature of the incel problem, not uninformed opinions about it.



Something tells me the human population is going to be fine.
Based on what metric, becuase literally every developed nation has a net negative birthrate and thenones woth positive population growth only achieve it through mass immigration, which isna zero sum game. The fact that you even posted this with zero thought just proves how stupid you are.
But I think what you actually mean is 'oh noes now there's going to be too many brown people.'
I honestly don't care and the fact that you eben said that just proves to me you aren't arguing in good faith. Regardless, it's happening in the Middle East and Latin America too, so brown are also being affected as well. Plus, the developed nations being the purse string for these nations doesn't bode well for their future.

Too bad so sad. Empires collapse and societies change. It's been that way for thousands of years and it's going to keep being that way.
Because retards like you refuse to see that things are objectively getting worse and there needs to be something done about it.




But this is possible.
It's not that easily attainable as it even was before the advent of social media.
The thing I've noticed about people who bitch about this kind of shit is, they have no job or work a shit job, they spent their free time watching tv, playing videogames or other time wasting shit like that, they have no motivation to improve their skills with useful shit or improve their lives in anyway, they don't want to work hard at anything, they want everything they want handed to them without having to put any effort into anything.
That is a small minority of men, even in the past. Most men have something going for them whether it be school, white/blue collar work. You are describing the type of men that naturally shouldn't be able to have kids. The problem is the type of man I'm describing SHOULD be able to have a wife and kids and have the means to support them. Not even a super model in a LA mansion, just something livable with a woman who is in a good relationship with him and has good housemaking skills. However, because you literally ignored my first paragraph, all these things are basically out of reach for a great deal of average men not through any fault og their own but becuase all these social pressures are greatly affecting their romantic prospects negatively (whether it be needing to work more to make a living, not being the conventionally attractive guy (something which wouldn't see a guy dateless even 20 years ago) or men just not going to school since it is excessively female oriented), hence they check out of society becuase realistically, there's nothing to gain by playing by it's book.
Life takes work. Relationships take work. Some of the hardest shit I've done in my life was work to improve my relationship and my life. Being married is hard.
Boomer tier advice. Everyone knows this. Stop pretending this non sequitur has anything to do with my main point at all.
Honestly the very concept of incels is the epitome of self-entitled arrogance.
Actually the inability to empathize with the vast majority of these incels, who are just normal dudes who have gotten an extremely bad hand in life or dudes who are victims of a retarded, schizophrenic society that is goverened by layers and layers of dumb bureacracy and social media algorithms rather than sane moral principles and meaningful humanisms, is a sign of arrogance.

I understand that sites like incels.is exist, where the users actively harass and wish to harm women. They are the minority of you actually think about it since if they were a majority or even a sizable minority, society would a lot more violent and lot more chaotic than it is now. These people are mockeries and mentally ill and it shows up on how only the moset disaffected and despairing normalfag incels decides to associate with them. Maybe we should stop this pipeline from fixable normalfag to actual schizophrenic woman hating retard instead of aiding it by condemning people for shit isn't even their fault most of the time. Like 33% of young haven't had sex or a relationship. That is fucking horrific and a sign something is drastically wrong with the world that we live in that 1 out of 3 men can't find female companionship.

It takes a lot of effort to punch down on people that don't deserve it for the most part, so stop trying to pretend you are some arahat giving sage advice to be enlightened rather than an entutled, middle class prick who cares more about her own comfort to the exclusion of her fellow man.


So no, I don't give a fuck that two generations can't git gud in life and blame their parents and society for being fuckups.
Because you are a selfish pricknwho thinks about short term pleasure versus thr long-term sustainability of society
Yes I know.

I don't even entertain the unironic actually misogynistic shit a lot of dudes say on this site, but you are a living streotype of those opinions about women being stupid, self-centered and narcissistic and generally obnoxious. I don't think you deserved a post with this much thought put into it, bit here you go.
 
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It's not that easily attainable as it even was before the advent of social media.
So try harder.
The problem is the type of man I'm describing SHOULD be able to have a wife and kids and have the means to support them.
There's that word 'should'. What makes you think those men should be able to anything? There's no 'should be able to' in life. Just because something should be able to happen doesn't mean it will and no amount of woe is me will change that.

I also don't understand where this idea that men had it so much better in the past shit came from. Things have pretty much always sucked for men and it's pretty much always been men getting the short end of the stick.

Men in the past might have been married but they worked like dogs in conditions that would be considered appalling today, they drank and smoked themselves to death to cope, they had to do shit like be able to maintain their own house, their own cars and everything else on top of working and providing, they got drafted into wars, and when shit went south they took the blame.

Here's the thing, it still works like that today. It's just we are all drastically poorer than people were back then to the point where in most cases a single income won't provide. You've got a couple choices, you can cry about how unfair shit is or you realize life is unfair in general and it's up to you to figure out how to adapt and get the things you want in life. It's your life, nobody else's. 99% of every person you see in your life will realistically give absolutely zero fucks about your existence. I'm not saying this to be a dick, it goes for every single person out there.

It's up to you and every single person to work for themselves to get what they want in life. You might not necessarily get it, but sitting around complaining will never get you what you want. Nobody will ever care about incels because nobody gives a shit about the problems of men and they never will.

Men are literal cannon fodder. They die all the time doing things no woman would ever be expected to do even in todays world. It's the way of it. It always has been and always will be. Get over it, accept it and work for your place in the world like a man. It sucks but it's reality and always will be no matter how many men cry about it.

Bitching about women and the dumb shit they do is pointless. It doesn't matter if 99% of the women in the world are retarded ethots or whatever the fuck. Not all of them are. Not all women use social media. Not all women are this that or the other. Ignore the ones that are. If the internet lacks non retarded women, get off the internet and do something else.

But guess what, being married means you've gotta put up with the dumb shit women do. Because even non current year brain fucked women do dumb shit and the older you get the more you realize all women do dumb shit men would never do, all women have always done dumb shit men would never do because that's just how women are and always have been and you just have to put up with it, because that's how women are, if you want to be married that is.

When I say I don't care about incels I mean I don't care about incels collectively. Their complaining and crying is pointless. If some dude were to ever come to me and ask for advice or even help say someone to go out with to try and meet a girl or something, I'd help him. Because, that guy is proactive, he's trying, I'd do my best to help that guy with his problem. But people who complain and cry about how unfair life is for them can take a hike. Life's unfair for everyone, get over yourself. It's no different than trannies crying about unfair life is because they'll never truly pass.

People who complain about not getting what they want in life and then weaving it as some grand social problem(sound familiar?) are unappealing to everybody.
 
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