What would it take to properly operate within a given sex-based subculture?

[Haramburger]

what, exactly, does a woman incorrigibly lack when she's not born as a man but "wishes to be one"? To which lessons is she not exposed when she's doesn't have membership in men's subculture? If anything, what specific effects do her hormonal developments have on her thinking that render her mind essentially incompatible with said subculture?

A lot of women lack a certain male "drive" that informs a lot of their behavior. It's hard to pin down exactly what it is, but it's that same unspoken force that makes men explorers, pioneers, and move forward even if the end goal isn't particularly clear or well-defined from the start. It's why men won't stop and ask for directions, it's a dash of self-confidence with a little "I'll smooth over whatever's wrong later once I get this part resolved." It's picking up a skill for no reason other than a hunch it might be useful later, and a big helping of "I'm doing it for no one else's satisfaction other than my own." It's something that makes men competitive, and quickly evaluate threats and dismiss distractions. Dilligence, calculating, focused even when multitasking.

There's obviously tomboys, and power women/alpha women that get shit done, but the vast majority of women do not radiate the voraciousness men do when they're on task and pursuing a goal.

If women aren't included in male spaces at a young age, they all seem to not understand the coarseness of male interactions with each other, or the self-sufficiency expected of them. Friendships can go weeks, months, years without interaction and pick back up where they left off, which is harder on women in general. Men test each others limits(usually with jokes or pranks) regularly, which most women find threatening and react poorly.

I can't speak to hormonal effects other than it's broadly understood that estrogen seems to go hand in hand with emotional volatility and mood swings. Men find that shit annoying and its expected that dudes keep their shit together on their own time. Very few exceptions to that rule, though touchy-feely types are trying to encourage that to change. I don't see much momentum behind it at any grass roots level though. Conversely, test seems to make men more aggressive and quick to anger, but it's somewhat balanced through physical exertion and respect for those considered peers. Men seem to work off the negative effects of their hormones more efficiently than women, but are also more prone to violate social norms involuntarily/commit crimes if it's not managed. High crit rate, in a way.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

Zero Day Defense said:
what, exactly, does a woman incorrigibly lack when she's not born as a man but "wishes to be one"?

Not trying to be glib; the responses here are great. But the first thing such a woman lacks is not accepting reality. It sucks when you're not attractive but men have to just accept they're bald or homely and work on the world around them to improve their station. A woman operating on appearance as value will be unable to drop the fixation on looks and roll up her sleeves to get to work.

To which lessons is she not exposed when she's doesn't have membership in men's subculture?

Falsehood and fraud are universally abhorrent. Having a dishonest reputation is poison to male relationships. We rely more on people's word than long discussions about our feelings. There's nothing faker than living a lie, and you can't stop lying when you're living one. If there's anything male peer groups can detect, it's a phony. Men are also annoyed with artificiality and simpering, both of which FtMs have in spades, because their dysphoria keeps pestering them to seek approval and acceptance. The more she insists on herself the more off putting she is.

If anything, what specific effects do her hormonal developments have on her thinking that render her mind essentially incompatible with said subculture?

Hormones manifest themselves in behavior. It's not like an automaton, but the difference in doing, thinking or feeling something and not is the surplus or shortage of hormones.

 

[Otterly]

I discuss this with Mr. Dilligaff - FtM cannot banter and do not do the mutual insult thing very well. They often end up running off to cry somewhere. I have a couple of female friends who can do the banter/insult thing, but it's still not the same.

Yeah I’ve noticed this as well. Male/female banter is hard, partly because men are afraid of offending women and there’s a potential flirting dynamic as well. These days you’ll get me tooed, but it can also cross into awkwardness fast. Women just don’t banter with other women. Men banter with other men but when men and women banter it seems very akin to flirting with each other and that can go wrong very quickly.

As an aside (more along what @Space_Dandy was highlighting), I found this tool that purports to be maybe >=60-70% accurate at predicting whether something was written by a man or a woman. I ran your excerpt through it, and while it doesn't have as much words as the script would want...

View attachment 3415161

For kicks, I took one of @Otterly's posts (trimmed out the links) and got this as a result:

View attachment 3415150
You got some splainin' to do.

I kid, I kid.

I'm unsure about how much this helps my inquiry, but I found it amusing and somewhat topical.

Well that is genuinely fascinating. I promise you I’m a woman, but this may explain why in online spaces people often think I’m male ?

A woman operating on appearance as value will be unable to drop the fixation on looks and roll up her sleeves to get to work.

And again maybe this is a differentiator, I think it certainly is, between attractive women and us plainer Janes? I’m no ogre, but I’m short and I’m certainly never going to get a modelling contract. Very attractive women get simped for, this has probably been the case forever. Us plain ones have to roll our sleeves up. But really people use what tools they have. Some are smart, some have the gift of the gab and some are desirable. Does it apply to attractive men? Yes but less so. Why? sex. There’s a quote of something like ‘men can’t use sex to get what the want because sex IS what they want.’
This is a fascinating thread.
@Haramburger yes, I am very much someone who doesnt need to be in constant contact. I find it annoying and draining. Very few women can tolerate that and most will complain about it.

 

[Dilligaff]

Yeah I’ve noticed this as well. Male/female banter is hard, partly because men are afraid of offending women and there’s a potential flirting dynamic as well. These days you’ll get me tooed, but it can also cross into awkwardness fast. Women just don’t banter with other women. Men banter with other men but when men and women banter it seems very akin to flirting with each other and that can go wrong very quickly.

I can't believe I've been off the market so long I wasn't taking the whole flirting aspect into account, only the insult aspect of banter. I feel really old.

 

[Haim Arlosoroff]

As an aside (more along what @Space_Dandy was highlighting), I found this tool that purports to be maybe >=60-70% accurate at predicting whether something was written by a man or a woman. I ran your excerpt through it, and while it doesn't have as much words as the script would want...

God-damn it, this is going to keep me up at night now.

Verdict: Weak MALE

Weak emphasis could indicate European.

Everyone else's time on kiwifarms is about to get a fuckload worse or a fuckload better. Threaten me with being European and I'm going to make this everyone else's problem.

Genre: Formal
Female = 60
Male = 24
Difference = -36; 28.57%
Verdict: FEMALE

I promise only suffering from here on out.

Genre: Informal
Female = 39
Male = 0
Difference = -39; 0%
Verdict: FEMALE

Fuck me.

Genre: Formal
Female = 4
Male = 0
Difference = -4; 0%
Verdict: FEMALE

 

[Otterly]

God-damn it, this is going to keep me up at night now.


Everyone else's time on kiwifarms is about to get a fuckload worse or a fuckload better. Threaten me with being European and I'm going to make this everyone else's problem.


I promise only suffering from here on out.


Fuck me.

Lol. You write like a Girl.*
*this is banter. See, it doesn’t work from women to men.

 

[Haim Arlosoroff]

Lol. You write like a Girl.*
*this is banter. See, it doesn’t work from women to men.

Genre: Formal
Female = 0
Male = 22
Difference = 22; 100%
Verdict: MALE

Well, I'll be damned. This thing works!*
*this is a joke, I am a joke, and so help me if my daughter and wife get more manly scores than me too.

Genre: Informal Female = 185 Male = 147 Difference = -38; 44.27% Verdict: Weak FEMALE Weak emphasis could indicate European.

Genre: Formal Female = 80 Male = 54 Difference = -26; 40.29% Verdict: Weak FEMALE Weak emphasis could indicate European.

Well, well, two for two this time.

 

[LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV]]

FTMS are used to female socialization that they take for granted that everytime they open their mouths to say anything they can expect feedback and don't understand when they don't get it.

There's just so much that fakebois say thats just overly girly, men instinctively know that whining and being really bitchy and petty over small things is affeminate and makes them look weak and vulnerable so FTMs at best come off as uber soyboys, the kind of men that get no respect outside steven universe fanfictions.

 

[Sanity]

Men seem to work off the negative effects of their hormones more efficiently than women, but are also more prone to violate social norms involuntarily/commit crimes if it's not managed.

So, they don't.

 

[Haramburger]

So, they don't.

Perhaps.

I read a post that I liked the other day on 4chan, it said something along the lines of "Men have a need to endlessly drive out foreign invaders," obviously this doesn't apply to current politics and immigration but the sentiment hit home for me. If you can fit a person/thing in the box of "enemy invader" the majority of men would never tire of fighting against that thing.

 

[Sanity]

"Men have a need to endlessly drive out foreign invaders," obviously this doesn't apply to current politics and immigration

I wish it did.

On a similar topic, how come there are no TIFs in right wing politics? It's full of TIMs, the most well-known being Blaire White, without counting the nazi trannies and other femboys AGPs (as seen on the catboy deconversion therapy section).
TIFs are only being vocal in liberal circles, policing other women. They reek of internalized misogyny, as such they should be more common in right wing internet spaces, but they don't.
My theory is that they don't actually want to be men, but to be "non-women" to escape sexualization, but don't want the downsides of fully passing as males (harshness, banter, having way less attention from the opposite sex, less pair bonding, etc...).

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

I can't believe I've been off the market so long I wasn't taking the whole flirting aspect into account, only the insult aspect of banter. I feel really old.

I'm a WW1 veteran, and I can relate to feeling old. It's hard to believe how fast time seems to move these days.

 

[LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV]]

I wish it did.

On a similar topic, how come there are no TIFs in right wing politics? It's full of TIMs, the most well-known being Blaire White, without counting the nazi trannies and other femboys AGPs (as seen on the catboy deconversion therapy section).
TIFs are only being vocal in liberal circles, policing other women. They reek of internalized misogyny, as such they should be more common in right wing internet spaces, but they don't.
My theory is that they don't actually want to be men, but to be "non-women" to escape sexualization, but don't want the downsides of fully passing as males (harshness, banter, having way less attention from the opposite sex, less pair bonding, etc...).

women tend to lean more towards the liberal left and those fakebois are still women, they troon out but still follow the same trend and they have the same aesthetic tastes of straight women and still feel related with female issues.

Is like how male trannies will still engage mostly with mostly male hobbies and go into mostly male careers because they are still just men.

 

[Larry David's Opera Cape]

I wish it did.

On a similar topic, how come there are no TIFs in right wing politics? It's full of TIMs, the most well-known being Blaire White, without counting the nazi trannies and other femboys AGPs (as seen on the catboy deconversion therapy section).
TIFs are only being vocal in liberal circles, policing other women. They reek of internalized misogyny, as such they should be more common in right wing internet spaces, but they don't.
My theory is that they don't actually want to be men, but to be "non-women" to escape sexualization, but don't want the downsides of fully passing as males (harshness, banter, having way less attention from the opposite sex, less pair bonding, etc...).

They don't pass well in right wing circles, for one. They can sorta pull of turbo-gay or soy boy, especially with a generally sympathetic liberal audience who wants to humor them and pat their little 5'2 manlet buttocks for trying. But they can't pull off any of the array of Right Wing Male personas convincingly. They are not stoic enough to be the outdoorsman, hunting/fishing/building things on the property sort. They're not real and earnest enough to be a Regular Guy who wants to grill. If they try to pull off the Buckley intellectual in loafers bit they look like Victor/Victoria. Plus they are NEVER as well-read and broadly educated as that sort of intellectual conservative man. They won't be able to pull up knowledge from the Greek and Latin classics, casually- they weren't interested in that sort of thing by and large because there's not much in it for girls. They are going to look just plain small and stupid next to any kind of man who is comfortable with being a man. So that leaves lefty circles full of male feminists, cucks, sexual deviants, and broken victims of maternal abuse.

 

[Car Won't Crank]

A man fixes a car that doesn't crank.

 

[Ultrapenguin]

I've been thinking about this, and maybe they've just had life experiences that have allowed/forced them to be able to give and take banter better than some of the rest of us ladies. Some of it could also be personality.

I have tried to do the insult thing with my male friends but they often think I'm being serious. I don't know if that's because I'm a woman or it's just me in particular or a combination. Could just depend on them individually too. People are so complex it's difficult to tease out anything absolute.

This is a fascinating thread, just sayin'.

In part it almost certainly routes back to men's tendency to be more independent.

Men giving each other shit is generally a sign of respect and that they believe they can take it, and if they can't that they should buck up.
But behind it is the idea that men don't need each other socially. Obviously whoever I'm with can take it, I wouldn't be hanging around them or bothering with them if they couldn't, I'd just go do my own thing, it's not like I need other people.

Women aren't very good at being alone or lacking other people by which to orient themselves however, so there's always a sort of implied necessity to their social connections that makes you assume they're pulling punches in order to avoid rejection; thus if they say something critical to another woman's face you have to wonder how much there is that she isn't saying.


I'm stretching my self-analytical skills here, but a more fundamental one is that men tend to be a bit more intense but they emotionally process less. I think that leads to a situation where for men a lot of their expression winds up being more amorphous.
Friendship, competitiveness, anger, affection, protectiveness, sexual drive, they wind up fairly closely intertwined into a general sense of "passion". That isn't as much the case for women.
As a consequence as a man you tend to be more attuned to general intent.

E.g. a great thing to do with dogs is to say very unkind thing to them, but you say it with a kind tone and good intent so it makes the dogs happy. I say horrible things to dogs constantly about how dumb and useless they are and how I'll snip their ears off with tin snips and sell them to a hungry Chinese family.
When women hear you do that it'll often bother them and they'll tell you to cut it out. But the thing is the dogs like it and you like it, because it's a more primal and unprocessed form of expression where the linguistic aspect is secondary.

Men interact more like the dogs, where words don't matter nearly so much as stuff like tone, behavior, etc.
When women interact it tends to be lower intensity with more processing, so if my buddy walks up to me and says "What's up loser?" you know that's a friendly informal greeting, where as if a woman says "What's up loser?" you're going to presume a lot more deliberation on her part and thus assign a lot more disrespect to it.

I think the internal sense of intensity and compulsion is a testosterone thing, and how it's expressed is more about personality and socialization.

 

[Sanity]

men don't need each other socially

it's not like I need other people

It seems like you're projecting your autism on other males. There is nothing better than having a thight knit circle of close friends you can rely on, and oh, have fun.

Friendship, competitiveness, anger, affection, protectiveness, sexual drive, they wind up fairly closely intertwined into a general sense of "passion". That isn't as much the case for women.

I'm not sure about that. You don't see these extreme fusional friendships nearly as much in men than you see them in women, for instance. And also, god damn it, don't tell me that mothers aren't passionately protective of their kids. There isn't really an equivalent of a deadbeat dad for mothers.

When women interact it tends to be lower intensity with more processing, so if my buddy walks up to me and says "What's up loser?" you know that's a friendly informal greeting, where as if a woman says "What's up loser?" you're going to presume a lot more deliberation on her part and thus assign a lot more disrespect to it.

Well, in your example, it sounds like it's men that take social interactions with less intensity, to be honest.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

There isn't really an equivalent of a deadbeat dad for mothers.

Unless they drop the child on their grandparents to take care of, or they leave them at a fire station, or they abandon them to boyfriends who molest them.

Not that not doing any of those things means that you're anything resembling a good mother.

 

[Mr Bunny]

As an aside (more along what @Space_Dandy was highlighting), I found this tool that purports to be maybe >=60-70% accurate at predicting whether something was written by a man or a woman. I ran your excerpt through it, and while it doesn't have as much words as the script would want...

Interesting tool, I'm getting funny results with it.

Well for me personally I want ten kids and I want my ten kids to have ten kids each ect ect, so when I am great great grandfather rabbit I'll be a father of a new nation.

The rabbit empire shall come from my loins.

This post here got it to call me a female.

*Sip*

*sip*

*Sip*

Alright big girl Raptor, for most animals it's fight or flight, for rabbits it's flight or fuck, how scaly is the pussy? Let's do this, clearly you need some proper lovin.

Whereas this one got a male.

But apparently the tool wants 300 words or more, which rises a point which sex would talk the most on average, taking banter for example men consider you winning the banter fight if you mange to land a hit on the opponent with as littles words as possible as it's a display of wit.

I have tried to do the insult thing with my male friends but they often think I'm being serious. I don't know if that's because I'm a woman or it's just me in particular or a combination. Could just depend on them individually too. People are so complex it's difficult to tease out anything absolute.

If I had to take a guess it's two things.
1. I personally find the average woman's tone of voice doesn't translate well to sarcasm to my male ears so good, so it's hard to tell.
2. The experience of men have of women starts with our mothers, and mother speaks in two tones, serious and babying, the insulting banter gives the same tone/vibe as when mother was serious because we did something wrong.

This is why I think male & females' banter most likely resorts to flirtation banter, as women speaking flirty is it's own thing, not serious or babying.

Edit: Just wanted to add, I love when the tool saying weak could indicate European lmao.

 

[Haramburger]

Interesting tool, I'm getting funny results with it.

In World of Warcraft 16 years ago, as a male I used to coach two male friends on how/what to say to seem like a girl behind the keyboard to get invited into raids, and it worked regularly. I also scammed gold out of thirsty boys in Runescape. I Believe The Science™.