Culture What’s Wrong With the ‘No Trans’ Dating Preference Debate - Another day, another mention of Kiwi Farms in news

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/neq9zx/whats-wrong-with-the-no-trans-dating-preference-debate

What’s Wrong With the ‘No Trans’ Dating Preference Debate
Everyone is entitled to their sexual preferences, but we should be able to talk about how societal values affect them.

Abigail Curlew

Feb 23 2018, 7:30pm



OK, let’s talk about “no trans” dating preferences, a recent fixation in sexual politics that often ends up in transphobic and abusive conversations.

Take, for example, a recent video by LGBTQ commentators Arielle Scarcella and Blaire White, which argued that lesbians were not transphobic if they were only attracted to cisgender women.

Trans feminists and YouTube personalities, such as Riley J. Dennis and Contrapoints, have been arguing for some time that a lack of sexual attraction to trans folks is, to some degree, shaped by societal prejudices and stereotypes. As a PhD student in sociology and a trans feminist, I am concerned how the debate has misrepresented trans critics and led to attacks on trans feminists and activists.

The attraction debate has been popping up on-and-off over the last few years, but seems to have been kicked off by a video posted by Dennis called “Your dating ‘preferences’ are discriminatory” which explored how social inequalities and oppression shape our attractiveness to marginalized peoples.

Dennis concludes in her video, “Because these dating preferences are ultimately harmful to people who don’t fit into your box of what a conventionally attractive person looks like, it makes people feel isolated, alone, and unwanted to hear that they are universally unattractive to people.” Dennis urges her viewers to critically reflect on the stereotypes that shape their preconceived attractions to others.

But Scarcella and White twisted the terms of this argument to read as an assault on the rights of lesbians and cis-women, an attack on the lesbian community by “SJW” authoritarians. This isn’t entirely surprising as Blaire White’s YouTube channel routinely resorts to offensive conservative arguments that belittle and misrepresent the feminist community.

Scarcella claims “being gay is transphobic.” But their hot take has a selective hearing problem: it cherry picks controversial lines from trans feminists and ignores the important context that frames the entire argument.

This video struck a nerve in far-right circles, which led to a harassment campaign against Riley carried out by an angry cyber-mob of thousands of users systematically downvoting her videos and sending her hurtful content, comments, and venomous response videos. For instance, her video mentioned above has two thousand likes and fifty thousand dislikes followed by an endless stream of abusive comments, many of them misgendering Riley.

Many of the critiques of Riley’s arguments alleged that her video accused cisgender folks of having sexual identities that were transphobic. Such an argument would understandably irritate a lot of people. Critics argued that Riley was attempting to coerce straight men and lesbian women into having sexual attractions to trans women.

Of course, this is not what Riley was arguing.

This debate has riled trans exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs), which has heightened the already intense transphobic harassment practiced over online spaces like YouTube and Twitter. TERFs, for those of you who don’t know, are radical feminists who accuse trans women of being “men in dresses” trying to infiltrate women’s spaces for god knows what reasons. Many of these TERFs already go out of their way to harass, intimidate, and dehumanize trans women, especially those women in publicly-facing positions. As any woman and feminist killjoy could likely tell you, gendered online abuse and harassment is not only highly prevalent and commonplace, but very damaging and traumatizing.

It is especially dangerous for trans women who speak out against transphobia and abuse. The last time I wrote an article about transphobia, I was featured on Kiwifarms (a troll website dedicated to abusing, harassing, and embarrassing transgender folks and those who suffer from mental health issues). A group of aggrieved trolls dug up my Internet history, misgendered me, threatened me, and lamented that me and people like me should not exist.

Scarcella and White argue that sexuality is defined entirely by biological factors, which implies that it is entirely static. They propose that sexuality and gender are not at all influenced by “society,” despite the commonly-accepted fact that homophobia and transphobia are culturally-motivated belief systems.

In her video, Riley asserts, “we know that sexual orientations are more innate than learned.” And she goes on to assert that the ways people talk about their dating preferences are most assuredly shaped by societal prejudice. For instance, when someone expresses disgust towards a trans woman that they mistook for a cis woman—that is transphobia. In fact, that is the very definition of transphobia; the irrational fear of transgender folks.

Many trans feminists, including myself, would argue that this sense of disgust isn’t a given in our predetermined sexual identities; it is a flexible frame of mind that can be changed through critical self-reflection. There are plenty of people, including heterosexual men and lesbian women, who might find themselves surprisingly attracted to a trans woman. That is very different than saying that if you’re not attracted to trans women you are transphobic.

Let me repeat: I am not saying that it is imperative to be attracted to trans women. I am arguing that your attraction is shaped by preconceived notions and stereotypes of transgender folks. So, no, I am not shaming you because of your sexual orientation. I am merely asking you to critically reflect on the factors that might shape your attractions.

For me, these arguments feel super reductive. Sexuality and gender are complicated identity categories that sit on a shifting identity continuum. The social scientific canon has an abundance of research on these topics, starting with the famous Kinsey scale that reveals the diversity and flux of sexual identities. For many sociologists such categories are culturally constructed and historically situated. This doesn’t mean that you have individual control or agency over your sexuality or gender, but that the meanings and perceptions that inform our sexuality and gender are relative to your culture and history. This also doesn’t mean there’s no biological influence, but how we interpret our biological impulses do not exist in a vacuum empty of ideological takes on the world.

Much of the work towards queer liberation in the past few decades have been literally engaged in re-shaping public perceptions of LGBTQ folks from a perceived medical and psychological illness to a legitimate, normal, and natural continuum of sexualities and genders.

Sexuality and gender aren’t simply something that comes from some biological imperative. They are phenomena that are developed through a messy brew of social, cultural, historical, and psychological factors. They can also prove to be lightly malleable if we try to dig into the foundations of how those oppressive structures influence the ways we see and understand the world.

It is essential that YouTube personalities like Scarcella and White who are engaging in sexual and gender politics critically interrogate the nasty effects of their reach and influence. They might get thousands of views, but there are trans women who need to deal with the fallout of their wide breadth of influence. We get shit on enough as it is, and we don’t need our arguments grossly misinterpreted so that you can make a few dollars on advertising.

Follow Abigail on Twitter.
They can't keep getting away with this!
 
I didn't realize Kiwi Farms was dedicated to trolling every trans person on the internet.
I keep getting distracted and talking to people here. I must just not be dedicated enough to trolling the personal favorite special group of every single fucking useless thinkpiece writer on the internet.
 
As a PhD student in sociology and a trans feminist
This happens every time. Every fucking time. What do YOU as the author matter to the piece you are fucking talking about? This isn't about YOU it's about the subject, and every time someone says this I want to choke them.

People need to learn to write with a neutral point of view, seriously.
 
To me, this whole debate is just a waste of time on their part yet they choose to tard out on this. What this all amounts to is that they're looking to identify their enemies with this gotcha question disguised as a debate where if they get an answer that doesn't fall in line with their view, they'll start usual song and dance routine of shaming and attacking. They know sexual preferences exist but they don't give a shit and never will because it's uncomfortable to them.
 
Some trannys just don't get it that if men are attracted to trans women they'd say so. When they say they're attracted to women and don't mention trans women it means they're only attracted to cis women. They have to realize that even if they were to have bottom surgery their "vagina" isn't really a vagina and will disgust most cis men. Technology isn't that advanced yet. And if they're offended that men only like vagina then maybe they should just stick to women or go after chasers. Most men are either straight or gay so finding one that likes both cock and vagina isn't common.

Holy shit Riley Dennis has a bigger Adam’s apple and deeper voice than my grandpa did.

No wonder he’s so assblasted over people refusing to date him.

He has a girlfriend. She's a bit pudgy but kinda cute.
 
A productive solution to this problem: Creating websites that are tailored to trans people and people who are fine with dating trans people. Also, making it easier to find people who will date trans people on mainstream dating sites.

What these spazzes are doing: Demanding that straight and gay people alter their sexual preferences and fuck trans people if they don’t want to be demonized as bigots.
 
It was kind of funny in a way. One tranny posts a video whining that lesbos and straights won’t suck his girlcock. Another tranny posts a video making fun of the first for being that motherfucking dense, and now a third tranny is writing a whiny article about the tranny mocking the first one because no really the only reason you don’t want girlcock is because society taught you that girls have vaginas.

And deeper and deeper the rabbit hole goes...

Blaire doesn't even want to date trans people. She explains this quite thoroughly and it doesn't come across as phobic at all.

Riley and this author are acting whiny.

" a video posted by Dennis called “Your dating ‘preferences’ are discriminatory” which explored how social inequalities and oppression shape our attractiveness to marginalized peoples"

Oh is that what it did? When I watched it I heard rev Riley say that " you can unlearn your sexual prejudices" , implying conversion therapy works, something this dishonest article completely left out.

Being trans reduces your dating pool. It's an inherent issue, always will be. Instead of trying to shame people into putting out, they could spend time developing resources for trans people to cope with the difficulty of finding partners.

Why not just have them date each other instead of shaming cis people into dating them?

Everybody discriminates in dating preference. Maybe not across every line, but not everybody is attractive to everybody. There is literally nothing wrong with this, and trying to create relationships between people who don't want to be together is just asking for trouble.

Human evolution is such that most people tend to like conventionally attractive cisgendered people. Fat men are able to get smoking hot blonde women, so a trans woman with enough guff who is willing to wade through chasers can get whatever she wants.

Stop whining at the world and do it yourself.

This happens every time. Every fucking time. What do YOU as the author matter to the piece you are fucking talking about? This isn't about YOU it's about the subject, and every time someone says this I want to choke them.

People need to learn to write with a neutral point of view, seriously.

They're channeling their oppression. It's like an incantation. Ommmm transpolyqueersexual....
 
"Your dating preferences are harmful to others."

It's about MY body and who I chose to get intimate with! Thus I have the right to reject people. Troon feelings don't matter. Date each others you sick rapists.

If you don't believe in -rape culture- look at the troon community. They think their imagined identities gives them the right to demand that people date them. They claim that this isn't rapey - BUT IT IS! :mad:

Consent according to troons: "Rape is bad but if you don't want to date trans people I shame you until you until you date us!"
 
There have been accounts published of lesbians giving transwomen a chance... it is NOTHING like being with a woman.
Because no surgery or lessons can give a transwoman the things that are innate to biological women.

And that isn't even touching on the fact that a "neo vagina" is not a vagaina but a created wound that is never allowed to heal and only stays open through lifelong dilation.

But of course these lesbians were basically told to get over themselves and not wanting sex with a biological man is horrible transphobia.

Which is in so many words telling a woman she should shut up and do what she is told.
 
I want to see this argument gain serious ground so that I can see them tear their hair out when nice guys point out that by the same argument women can change the kind of men they're attracted to through self-analysis and give the lonely betas the love they are entitled to.
Because these people are well known for applying standards equally to everyone.
I want to combine :story: and :optimistic: into a special rating for circumstances such as this.


This happens every time. Every fucking time. What do YOU as the author matter to the piece you are fucking talking about? This isn't about YOU it's about the subject, and every time someone says this I want to choke them.

People need to learn to write with a neutral point of view, seriously.
This is the current mindset though. Tracy Emin does this too, all her art is about Tracey Emin. If you take away her, then there's nothing left, it isn't art at all. The author of this article is just huffing their own farts and if you take that away, there's no article left.

It's the publising equivalent of empty-quoting and making Null tardrage.
 
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I think being a tranny is only half of your problem good sir.
 
I forget which society this legend originated from, but it covers these transcels behavior quite well.


Some woman with a heart of gold and beauty to match was envied by some ugly chick with a heart to match, and out of pity, the good looking chick lets the ugly chick have her looks for awhile.

The ugly chick is still the same asshole she always was, and the village men who liked the good looking chick still regard the ugly chick with disgust.

The village chief hears about this, demands the ugly chick hand the looks back, telling her something like "Despite the face you falsely wore, your true beauty still was obvious to all".


Only difference between this fictional story and reality is that the transcels are still ugly people inside and out, they just demand we pretend they wear beautiful faces and still act like assholes and still wonder why they don't get any.
 
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