Who do you blame for the government shutdown and why? - The American one, obviously

[Cyber Bowling]

I think the hardcore Trump supporters are adding an unnecessary complication.

Because of them, Trump is deadset on the wall specifically because he promised a physical wall. Anything less than the wall, whether or not it is actually more secure or effective, doesn't cut it. I think border security is important and worth having a discussion about, but I also think there's no single solution. In certain parts of the border, creating a wall/fence/whatever might help. Awesome, allocate the funds there. In other parts, it might need drones or physical security patrolling the area. Cool, let's invest there. It felt like Trump was willing to accept the original deal that gave border security a decent chunk of funding, some of which could be used for the wall, but could have also funded other projects not solved by the wall. To me, it seemed like he only backed down because he was afraid his hardcore base would stop supporting him if it didn't fund an entire border wall, whether or not he was still enforcing stronger border security and addressing the issue.

On the other hand, there's plenty of Dems stubbornly digging in and acting like this is a moral battle and just trying to get points for opposing Trump. Seems hypocritical to try and argue you don't think immigration is a problem when the original proposal had what, 1.3 billion for border security? That seems like a lot of money to invest in something that isn't a problem. I've seen a few Dems say their resistance is because it seems bad to invest so much money into one specific project instead of investing in multiple projects as needed depending on the area, but those voices are few and far between and there are way more anti Trump/moral outrage arguments being made.

I think the actual debate should be focused on was the original border security proposal enough to reasonably improve security, and if not, how much do they need/where is the money coming from. It doesn't help politicians are starting to think about the 2020 elections, so some of them are more concerned about how this will be spun in election ads vs. making a meaningful decision.

 

[Kirito]

I blame the democrats since they only control half of one branch of the government and they refuse to even consider compromising or giving the overwhelming majority what they want. They refuse to make any compromise while trying to treat it like a vacation on the taxpayers dime. I'm glad the president cancelled all their trips.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

The hacker known as 4chan.

Seriously, though, Trump was elected to do this. You cannot "blame" him for pushing the one thing he promised to do.

Change the poll for those who live outside the US to blame someone too

Yep, I wanna blame people too

 

[BILLY MAYS]

I blame Chris-chan.

 

[Disgruntled Pupper]

Pelosi and other Democrats who consider this a moral battle. How is Trump supposed to take another deal or maybe negotiate about more drones and personnel instead of 100% of the wall, when the people he's negotiating with have not and will not present any such deal because they consider a country having borders and defending them immoral?

 

[This+]

How do you have a shutdown when you control(led) all three branches of government? Clearly, it's the gross incompetence of the majority party that is at fault.

Trump had a deal a year ago - partial 2.5B for wall, in exchange for keeping DACA. He refused, saying he wants full funding for the wall. It didn't go through then. Now, he wants the entire funding for the wall in exchange for nothing. What Democrat would just sign away 7 billion dollars on shit that's not even gonna be built within the next year, when you can just appropriate that money on JDAMs to bomb more brown people right away?

 

[dopy]

i thank the ancap sky gods for this occurrence, actually

 

[KerryDixon9]

Trump is deadset on the wall specifically because he promised a physical wall. Anything less than the wall, whether or not it is actually more secure or effective, doesn't cut it.

That is bullshit. Total. Fucking. Bullshit.

Trump campaigned on a wall, but the people in charge of border security have told him that a wall isn't the right solution in many cases, the main reason because they'd need to see through the barrier if a group on the other side are making attempts to get over the barrier. Trump accepted that and the massive steel slatted fence was mocked up as well.

Libtards will throw the "But you called for a wall" and "But you said Mexico would pay for it" as though that's a victory for them but the right will just laugh at that.

The border situation is total shit, virtually every presidential candidate has ran on fixing it, Trump is the only one to actually try and fix it. The Dems are pretty much calling for open borders and abolishing ICE.

I voted for liebrals!!! and I vote republican

I'm actually a Brit who lived in the USA. Never voted in an election, probably never will. I like Trump, but I'm more an anti-Democrat than I am pro-Republican.

To me, it seemed like he only backed down because he was afraid his hardcore base would stop supporting him if it didn't fund an entire border wall,

$5.7 bn isn't going to cover the entire wall anyway. It's going to be way more than that. But if the Dems are fighting over any significant start being made then it's obvious it won't happen.

It doesn't help politicians are starting to think about the 2020 elections, so some of them are more concerned about how this will be spun in election ads vs. making a meaningful decision.

Trump has definitely been pushed into this by his hardcore support. Ann Coulter and a lot of people have come out and said the wall (securing the border) was the number one reason to vote for him and if he doesn't make significant progress then they are out*. So that's why Trump is pushing this so hard, and it's why Dems are fighting back against him.

Trump's arguments are that the border has to be fixed, nearly everyone is on record as supporting it in the past, lots of Dems have funded Israel's border wall for much more money. The Dems shit out that walls are immoral, MS13 are people too, Trump's just a racist meanie.

* I think the Wall or We're Out crowd are fucking nuts. Trump has performed pretty well in general, his numbers for the economy are fantastic, he's had to deal with an incredible amount of bullshit thrown at him from the MSM and the insanity of the Russian collusion hoax. Given that the Dems have acted like such total spastics for length of Trump's presidency I cannot understand how the behaviour of the Dems isn't forcing them to support Trump even more. But the pressure on Trump is forcing him to smack the Dems down and that is the Trump that they want to see.

 

[Wallace]

Moloch.

That's a long article, so let me summarize. There is simply no incentive for anyone in Congress to reach across the aisle. Conversely, there's an excellent incentive to not cooperate, you'll get labeled a traitor and primaried by someone further to the left--or the right if you're a Republican. From a god's-eye-view, the solution is simple and obvious: Congress should debate, negotiate, and reach compromises on the issues. From within the system, every individual Congressman follows their incentives and votes lock-step with their party.

Right now, we have a media that doesn't incentivize informed discussion. It incentivizes the dopamine rush of yelling at people. It rewards hot takes, outrage, and dunks. We have newly elected Congressmen who shout "impeach the motherfucker". That doesn't leave much room for debate--or offer any hope for a functional government at all for that matter. But this is what is rewarded. Shouting outrageous things gets you attention in an economy where attention is the most precious of resources. That attention is turned into more money and political clout. Passing bills, on the other hand, gets you nothing--or perhaps even hurts you. So everyone follows their incentives and produces hot takes and outrage instead of legislature, and more and more power passes to executive orders and Supreme Court rulings.

This isn't a new phenomenon. For the last fifteen years, we've been fed the message that our political enemies don't have different values or life experiences, they hate us because they are evil, period. Evil cannot be debated, negotiated, or compromised with. Politics is perceived as being zero-sum: what helps the other team, hurts me. The Tea Party caucus realized that they by standing up to Obama, they would be rewarded for it by their constituents and by Fox News, even at the cost of increasing incivility in Washington. Now the roles are flipped, but the calculus hasn't changed, so people run for Congress on a platform of "Impeach Trump!" even though this will never happen. People in safely red or blue districts can win solely on name recognition, so they spend their time on grandstanding and self-aggrandizement rather than doing the job they were elected to do.

Let me be clear, I'm not placing the blame solely on Congress. Obama learned the above lesson the hard way; he tried to reach across the aisle and suffered politically for it. Trump refuses to cooperate, because he has no incentive to do so. So Moloch infects the executive branch just as surely as it does the legislature.

Moloch most certainly infects the fourth estate as well. In a sea of hundreds of choices, media does what it must to survive in an increasingly competitive field, or it risks going the way of the newspaper. And again, what is rewarded is clickbait and sensationalism, not research or integrity. The dopamine rush that comes from cheering your own side like your favorite sports team is almost too addictive. Trump realized that he could get free attention by being outrageous, and the media was happy to give it to him--right up until he actually won the election, at which point the media started crying foul to cover up that they got played.

Until these incentives are changed, there will continue to be dysfunction in the government and the media. And unfortunately, I don't know how that is going to happen.

 

[byuu]

I blame America.

Really weird to me that the Congress and president can extort each other like that at the expense of its people.

 

[KerryDixon9]

Trump realized that he could get free attention by being outrageous, and the media was happy to give it to him--right up until he actually won the election, at which point the media started crying foul to cover up that they got played.

Brianna Wu gets free attention. AOC gets free attention.

Trump got attention because he demanded it by being one of the two candidates that had any interesting things to say at all (the other being Bernie). The attention Trump got was overwhelmingly negative and mocking. The media got played because they thought one thing was happening and they were completely wrong. Without twitter and Trump's arena filling events he simply wouldn't have won the presidency. The notion that he played the media played is just nonsense. The media were just cheerleading for Hillary and hammering Trump as hard as they could.

Trump refuses to cooperate, because he has no incentive to do so.

It's difficult to offer to cooperate when the opposition party are destroying the justice system by getting the FBI to commit anti-Constitutional crimes in order to remove you from office.

He did cooperate to help Pelosi get elected to Speaker. Now, I think he did that on purpose because he's going bitch slap her around for fun, but it's still cooperation.

He offered to make concessions for Dreamers, but the Dems just said no.

There is simply no incentive for anyone in Congress to reach across the aisle. Conversely, there's an excellent incentive to not cooperate, you'll get labeled a traitor and primaried by someone further to the left--or the right if you're a Republican.

Completely and utterly wrong, IMO.

The Democrat who steps further into the middle and rejects the insane wing of the party will probably attract every sane democrat in the country.

Trump's major problem is that he gets the blame for the insane reaction to him from the left. He gets the blame for that in the same way as Jordan Peterson gets blamed. He's also lacking in appearing presidential and his presentation skills are dreadful. Lots of Republican's want someone who isn't mocked throughout the world, they choose to ignore that he's lived his life banging high class hookers and a lot of them hate his erosion of 2A.

There is huge demand for someone who is more centrist. The problem is that most of the prospective candidates are just totally boring and weak politicians. The Dems also have the problem where they seem to be obsessed that their candidate has a vagina.

 

[Wallace]

There is huge demand for someone who is more centrist. The problem is that most of the prospective candidates are just totally boring and weak politicians. The Dems also have the problem where they seem to be obsessed that their candidate has a vagina.

Well, if you're one of those centrist candidates, how do you stand out in the crowd? How do you get people to notice you? Who is courting this untapped voting bloc?

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

How do you have a shutdown when you control(led) all three branches of government? Clearly, it's the gross incompetence of the majority party that is at fault.

Trump had a deal a year ago - partial 2.5B for wall, in exchange for keeping DACA. He refused, saying he wants full funding for the wall. It didn't go through then. Now, he wants the entire funding for the wall in exchange for nothing. What Democrat would just sign away 7 billion dollars on shit that's not even gonna be built within the next year, when you can just appropriate that money on JDAMs to bomb more brown people right away?

Why not get DACA and the wall in that case? He literally gave his one big condition as being full funding for the wall. Just give out the damn money and you could very well get a lot back (the bump stock ban was a clear example of him being willing in some cases). Give the 6 billion over and you could make out like a bandit somewhere.

 

[Y2K Baby]

Is it over.

 

[Slap47]

It's all come down to the wall.

Both sides are to blame. The Dems would be humiliated by any wall funding and Trump would be humiliated by no wall funding.

The Dems should allow the wall in exchange for increased healthcare funding and perhaps some pro-immigration stuff. Trump has little to gain from helping elitist public servants.

 

[This+]

Why not get DACA and the wall in that case? He literally gave his one big condition as being full funding for the wall. Just give out the damn money and you could very well get a lot back (the bump stock ban was a clear example of him being willing in some cases). Give the 6 billion over and you could make out like a bandit somewhere.

I'm surprised Trump didn't propose to give amnesty to DACA recipients in exchange for the wall funding. There's literally no danger from less than a million kids who abide by the law for over 10 years, and giving them amnesty is just plain good optics by saying "hey we like immigrants who aren't criminals. we'll forgive them because it wasn't their choice coming here but in return we have to strengthen our borders"

But then again that would be something sensible, and we absolutely can't have any of that business in this government.

 

[ICametoLurk]

Obama for being a pussy and not declaring FEMA guillotines martial law the first time this happened.

I was so fucking hyped for the FEMA camps man.

 

[KerryDixon9]

Well, if you're one of those centrist candidates, how do you stand out in the crowd? How do you get people to notice you? Who is courting this untapped voting bloc?

The Dems argument right now is that walls are immoral, inhumane, ineffective and racist, massively racist. They are so passionate about fighting this wall that they are refusing to talk about an end to the shutdown, however they are crying crocodile tears about those poor government workers who are having their pay delayed.

I don't know much about Kamala Harris, I thought she acted like a cunt during the Kavanaugh hearings, but for a 54 year old black woman politician she's attractive. If she was to stab the geriatric fool Pelosi in the back, have a meeting in the White House with Trump and come to an agreement with him to end the shutdown then she'd instantly be the front runner for the Democratic nomination. Yes, she would make the DNCs head explode by doing it, but Trump has shown you don't need party approval to make it.

Just seeing her latest tweets when I googled her, she's staying firmly in the Blame Trump for Everything camp and voting against Barr for AG. Well that's certainly going to separate her from the crowd. The latest Guardian headline was asking if she could win over progressives, but as I've argued she shouldn't even try.

 

[Mrs Paul]

I'd say Trump, since this is basically his vanity project. It's impractical, expensive, and it's probably unnecessary. There's a lot of shit we need more than a wall. I don't think he's doing this because OMG, ORANGE MAN BAD!!!! More like, he thinks he can run the government like he does one of his companies. It's not the same thing. Dude's in over his head, and he knows it.

If I recall correctly, the walls he's mentioned in various parts of the world are more like fences, not some big steel and concrete barrier. Could the Democrats suggest something like this as a compromise? Cuz I could get behind that.

The cynic in me suspects that he made some promises to various contractors -- which isn't really unusual with politicians, of course. And now they're calling in the favor. It's a classic case of "don't let your mouth write checks your ass can't cover." And anyone who believed the stupid "Mexico will pay!" is just as dumb as those who fell for the whole "Read my lips!" line from Bush. (Most of the people I know of who are repeating it are just being sarcastic. I hope no one took it seriously)

 

[ICametoLurk]

i thank the ancap sky gods for this occurrence, actually

I hope it stays going forever, it is the Minarchist ideal.