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Why Arguments Against Abolition Inevitably Fail

For centuries, people have been unwilling to grasp the concept that only by undoing the foundation can we build a new future


This article is part of Abolition for the People, a series brought to you by a partnership between Kaepernick Publishing and LEVEL, a Medium publication for and about the lives of Black and Brown men. The series, which comprises 30 essays and conversations over four weeks, points to the crucial conclusion that policing and prisons are not solutions for the issues and people the state deems social problems — and calls for a future that puts justice and the needs of the community first.

Movements against racist police violence and against entrenched racial injustices in this country’s jails and prisons can claim a history that is almost as old as the institutions themselves. Precisely because opposition and protests calling for reform have played such a central role in shaping structures of policing and punishment, the notion of reform has superseded other paths toward change. Ironically, many efforts to change these repressive structures — to reform them — have instead provided the glue that has guaranteed their continued presence and acceptance.

Both policing and punishment are firmly rooted in racism — attempts to control indigenous, Black, and Latino populations following colonization and slavery as well as Asian populations after the Chinese Exclusion Act and the World War II incarceration of Japanese Americans. Attempting to undo the harm of policing and prisons without attending to these immense embodiments of systemic racism is doomed to failure. The 20th-century militarization of the police has been further intensified by Islamophobia. More generally, the evolution and expansion of the police and the prisons are constant reminders that capitalism has always fundamentally relied on racism to sustain itself.

The insight that racism is essentially systemic and structural rather than individual and attitudinal — one repeatedly asserted by health care advocates and anti-police and anti-prison activists over many decades — finally entered mainstream discourse in 2020 under the pressure of Covid-19 and its disproportionate impact on Black and Brown communities. Its most popular expression in the slogan “Defund the Police” was disseminated during the mass mobilizations protesting the police lynching of George Floyd. For those who recognize the deeply conservative repercussions of equating “reform” with change, the call to defund the police manifested an abolitionist impulse to eschew the usual calls for punishing individual police officers and instituting some form of civilian overview of the department. Instead of habitual and perfunctory calls for “reform,” organizers began to think more deeply about pathways toward more radical change — in other words, change that would begin to respond to some of the root causes of why poor communities, and especially communities of color, are particularly vulnerable to the criminal legal system.

But for others, it had a jarring effect, conjuring up images of chaotic, crime-ridden (Black and Brown) communities, with no force in place to guarantee order. Some people, who live in so-called high crime neighborhoods, where they are preyed upon not only by the police but also by armed individuals and groups from their own communities and for whom the demand to defund the police was their first introduction to abolitionist ideas, were understandably bewildered. How would they survive at the mercy of malevolent groups who hardly care about the trajectory of stray bullets that have taken the lives of children and other bystanders? Their fears are real and not to be dismissed. But this is absolutely the moment to engage in the kind of educational activism that might help to encourage all of us, especially those of us who live in the most vulnerable neighborhoods, to purposefully rethink the meaning of safety and security.

This is the author:
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Angela Davis

This woman is known for supporting Jonestown
 
I like how they can just say this and people will accept this.

Because the concept of right and wrong and punishment for wrong deeds wasn't invented until whitey became aware of blacks, am I right? It's not like medieval Europe was filled with torture devices to punish fellow white people or anything.

It reminds me of this old SNL segment, these people really do seem to believe that all white people are secretly just patting each other on the back and laughing about how laws and rules are just something we expect minorities to do.


You are seriously saying that the "left" just wants to massacre all of humanity? For real? Yeah, it's no fucking wonder they are winning on all fronts if the right is comprised of idiots like you.

Yes, I am unironically saying that at the core of leftism is a hatred of humanity, a belief that we are a pox upon the Earth and we'd all be better off dead.

In their quest for their ideal of absolute 100% perfection they will realize that it's impossible because human beings are imperfect therefore the logical endpoint is self annihilation, there's already a movement called "anti-natalism" https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-case-for-not-being-born

Expect that to eventually go mainstream and one day having a baby will be as taboo for the left as showing support for the US President or the American flag is now.

Dude, the people you are talking about are predominantly white. I get it, it's fancy living in dreamworld where you can think that just by being white you're some kind of heroic resistance fighter in a battle against eeebils of communist overlords, but the truth is that those communist overlords and their minions are just as white as you are. And all of this bickering between the left and the right is nothing more than internal power struggle of the "white" ethnic group - in essence, it's a struggle for the future and identity of the western civilization. Sadly it seems to be a struggle between morons, and not even a particularly entertaining one.

Even if they are white, their money and power make them see the common man as being no different than ants, white or not.

They would happily genocide other whites if it meant consolidating their money and power that much further and that's exactly what they're doing.
 
Fucking lol, this bitch lives so far away from crime that none of this shit affects her. She's not living in the ghetto. She's living in a wealthy area, away from all the filth, not living with the crackheads and prostitutes trying to earn an honest living. Please, cunt. You'll be the first running for the police when the criminals come knocking. And they don't give a shit if you're black or woke. They'll fuck you up all the same.
Certainly even African tribal societies have their own form of law and order, right? So why's it so hard to grasp the concept "don't commit a crime if you don't want to face the consequences" for blacks in America?



Nah, I love humanity, God saw fit to give us redemption despite our flaws and that counts for something.

This is a God sized problem at the end of the day and one day, maybe even soon given how things are going, God will return to the Earth to sort our mess out.



Well one thing that went wrong is the election of our first black President just so happened to coincide with the rise of social media, which gave power to extremists like never before, which society was ill equipped to be able to deal with, had a black President happened sooner or later it's possible it wouldn't have been such a disaster, who knows.

Like I said there's always going to be a million little factors that go into things, the world is an incredibly complicated place, our modern situation doesn't even entirely stem from the election of Obama but also everything from 9/11 to the Iraq war to the Great Recession, change any one of those factors and like the butterfly effect who knows what might have been different.

The Great Recession for example is I think a big reason for why there was such a revival in Marxism, which also happened to coincide with Obama's election and the rise of social media.

In other words it's almost like America got hit with the perfect storm to make us spiral into chaos.
Yes. Tribal societies often do have punishments for crime. And they are almost always harsher than the penalties we have. Because tribal societies do not have the resources to spend on prisons. So if you commit crimes, you are either exiled, killed, maimed or fined. Or the prison you are in is a fucking hell hole that you would wish you were dead in. American prisons are shit, but crime and punishment in tribal societies is always much more severe. Because resources are limited and they don't have the resources to spend wasting it on a cunt like you.

I mean, even African nations have prisons. Prison is basically a universal human concept. Before prisons, you had basically your shit taken away, you were kicked out to starve or you were maimed or killed. You had four options, 3 of them shitty. Nobody is just going to accept criminals roaming the streets.

She'd have more support if she said abolish bail and jail time for waiting trial for non-violent offenses and low flight risk offenses. (READ: NON-VIOLENT). That alone would do a lot to help out as the poor wouldn't have to pay or lose their jobs because they had to wait it out in jail. Plus you save a ton of money since you don't have to house people. Its a win win. But of course, they go for the extreme "JUST ABOLISH A THING EVERY SOCIETY HAS USED SINCE THEY WERE ABLE WITH NO REPLACEMENT". Like are you fucking high you dumb cunt? The only option is to replace it with something WORSE.

Like there are tons of things you could say. Abolish the war on drugs, legalize prostitution, do the no bail/waiting in jail for non-violent and non-flight risk offenders, hell, even ban private prisons. BUT NOPE, GET RID Of ALL OF IT. Are you fucking stupid? Do you have fucking brain damage, you dumb cunt? You do this, it will literally be all out fucking war. You will balkanize entire neighborhoods. There will be community watch members with fucking barb wire barricades checking to see if you live there and blowing your fucking brains out if you don't.

Like this is peak Ancap/lolbertarian shit. You'll have neighborhoods hiring private militias that used to be police and prison guards. All neighborhoods would probably shoot blacks on sight. Being all lefty and touchy feely doesn't work when the rape mobs and burn mobs come to your town. With no police and no prisons, you'll have people gunning you down in the street. You are talking about the absolute collapse of society.

Of course this is never going to happen.

Idpol like this is a tool of the rich in order to make sure the lower classes don't gang up on them. We're seeing it more and more because the rich are obscenely wealthy, moreso than any time in history. The gap might as well be the grand fucking canyon. So yeah, we're going to see an intensity of trash like this who will never experience crime or would cry for the police the second a ghetto ass gang of Niggers strolls by.
 
Like this is peak Ancap/lolbertarian shit. You'll have neighborhoods hiring private militias that used to be police and prison guards. All neighborhoods would probably shoot blacks on sight. Being all lefty and touchy feely doesn't work when the rape mobs and burn mobs come to your town. With no police and no prisons, you'll have people gunning you down in the street. You are talking about the absolute collapse of society.
And the counter to this ends up being ANARCHO CAPITALISM ISN'T REAL ANARCHISM as if mass indiscriminate violence would be due to capitalism, and anarcho communism on the other hand would some how lead to a magic pacifism spell being cast on the masses.

Idpol like this is a tool of the rich in order to make sure the lower classes don't gang up on them. We're seeing it more and more because the rich are obscenely wealthy, moreso than any time in history. The gap might as well be the grand fucking canyon. So yeah, we're going to see an intensity of trash like this who will never experience crime or would cry for the police the second a ghetto ass gang of Niggers strolls by.
Really makes you thunk as to why after lockdowns caused most people to lose their jobs (but of course the rich and corporations are fine, or even better than ever in the post Covid world if they're in a field like tech) there was a huge influx of divisive political shit being pushed onto everyone.
 
Fucking lol, this bitch lives so far away from crime that none of this shit affects her. She's not living in the ghetto. She's living in a wealthy area, away from all the filth, not living with the crackheads and prostitutes trying to earn an honest living. Please, cunt. You'll be the first running for the police when the criminals come knocking. And they don't give a shit if you're black or woke. They'll fuck you up all the same.

Yes. Tribal societies often do have punishments for crime. And they are almost always harsher than the penalties we have. Because tribal societies do not have the resources to spend on prisons. So if you commit crimes, you are either exiled, killed, maimed or fined. Or the prison you are in is a fucking hell hole that you would wish you were dead in. American prisons are shit, but crime and punishment in tribal societies is always much more severe. Because resources are limited and they don't have the resources to spend wasting it on a cunt like you.

I mean, even African nations have prisons. Prison is basically a universal human concept. Before prisons, you had basically your shit taken away, you were kicked out to starve or you were maimed or killed. You had four options, 3 of them shitty. Nobody is just going to accept criminals roaming the streets.

She'd have more support if she said abolish bail and jail time for waiting trial for non-violent offenses and low flight risk offenses. (READ: NON-VIOLENT). That alone would do a lot to help out as the poor wouldn't have to pay or lose their jobs because they had to wait it out in jail. Plus you save a ton of money since you don't have to house people. Its a win win. But of course, they go for the extreme "JUST ABOLISH A THING EVERY SOCIETY HAS USED SINCE THEY WERE ABLE WITH NO REPLACEMENT". Like are you fucking high you dumb cunt? The only option is to replace it with something WORSE.

Like there are tons of things you could say. Abolish the war on drugs, legalize prostitution, do the no bail/waiting in jail for non-violent and non-flight risk offenders, hell, even ban private prisons. BUT NOPE, GET RID Of ALL OF IT. Are you fucking stupid? Do you have fucking brain damage, you dumb cunt? You do this, it will literally be all out fucking war. You will balkanize entire neighborhoods. There will be community watch members with fucking barb wire barricades checking to see if you live there and blowing your fucking brains out if you don't.

Like this is peak Ancap/lolbertarian shit. You'll have neighborhoods hiring private militias that used to be police and prison guards. All neighborhoods would probably shoot blacks on sight. Being all lefty and touchy feely doesn't work when the rape mobs and burn mobs come to your town. With no police and no prisons, you'll have people gunning you down in the street. You are talking about the absolute collapse of society.

Of course this is never going to happen.

Idpol like this is a tool of the rich in order to make sure the lower classes don't gang up on them. We're seeing it more and more because the rich are obscenely wealthy, moreso than any time in history. The gap might as well be the grand fucking canyon. So yeah, we're going to see an intensity of trash like this who will never experience crime or would cry for the police the second a ghetto ass gang of Niggers strolls by.

It's always the most extreme view with the left these days, they never meet anything halfway or engage in a single shred of moderation.
 
I know someone posted Judge Dredd, but prison still existed in MegaCity 1. Its just that you were sentenced instantly.
the counter to this ends up being ANARCHO CAPITALISM ISN'T REAL ANARCHISM as if mass indiscriminate violence would be due to capitalism, and anarcho communism on the other hand would some how lead to a magic pacifism spell being cast on the masses.


Really makes you thunk as to why after lockdowns caused most people to lose their jobs (but of course the rich and corporations are fine, or even better than ever in the post Covid world if they're in a field like tech) there was a huge influx of divisive political shit being pushed onto everyone.
Yeah, like people will mystically become pacifistic. No. All it takes is one guy to fuck all that up, which is why we don't operate on systems where one guy can fuck everything. Like, "Oh if we just adopt this people will hold hands and sing kumbaya" Uh, no, people don't work like that. If people know they won't go to jail or get punished, they will indulge on their baser urges. Count on fucking that. To this cunt its probably fine if the whites all get hurt, but realistically this would destroy every community in America.

I mean, it was to be divisive, but I think people are tired of this shit. I mean, there's no real choice these days. Moderation and fence sitting are dead.
It's always the most extreme view with the left these days, they never meet anything halfway or engage in a single shred of moderation.
They're really no longer interested in solutions. Abolishing prisons is a fucking pipe dream that is counter to human nature and wouldn't work unless you lobotomized and castrated 75% of the human population and that's being fucking generous. It is literally, not figuratively, impossible. Never, in the history of humanity, has a society operated without punishment. From the most primitive to the most complex. From the most poor to the most wealthy.

Prison is a solution because it takes you away from things you enjoy, deprives you of opportunity and has a cost to your offenses. But it doesn't render you homeless and (usually) doesn't result in you maimed or dead. Shit, even Star Trek struggled with that. There's an episode of DS9 where this society doesn't have prison. But it has you live out the time you would have spent in prison as a dream that plays out in seemingly real time. So like 1 hour is 50 years or some shit. Which leaves you fucking mentally traumatized but you don't really spend a day in jail. Its because there's simply no good solutions TO prison time. The only solutions we have are more extreme ones. Exile doesn't work because of the ubiquity of travel. So we're left with deprivation of property, maiming and death. Are those three REALLY better than fucking prison?

Like offer me one solution to abolishing prison that serves the same purpose and isn't as harsh as deprivation of property (IE: Rendering you homeless and jobless), maiming or execution. Hint: You can't. Because one doesn't fucking exist. Because if it did we would have found it. You think society WANTS prisons? We'd jump at a chance for a cheaper, better alternative. The problem is, there is no cheaper and better alternative. There's cheaper, but it won't be fucking better, I assure you of that. The thing is we don't really know how to reduce crime effectively en mass without prison. And we don't have a better alternative that isn't absurdly expensive. And even those absurdly expensive solutions aren't guaranteed or better than prison.

This stance makes absolutely no sense. If you cannot present a workable alternative, shut the fuck up about retardedly extreme solutions like this.

"Oh, just abolish prisons, they're bad."

"So, uh, what about the criminals?"

"IDGAF, it'll work itself out."

That's not a fucking acceptable answer. If you present no alternative, why in the fuck should I listen to you and not think you're a fucking moron? I wish we could live without prisons and police. I also wish I was hot and could live forever and the sun would never explode and fuck supermodels. Yeah, my wishes and dreams mean jack fucking shit. Wishes don't fucking matter. That's just your wish. It isn't real. Just because you 'believe' it doesn't make it approachable or even remotely a solution. I'm tired of dumb cunts like this and the betas and virtue signalers who clap mindlessly. Its fucking pointless. Here i can do it too!

Abolish police, they're bad. Everything will work itself out.

Abolish violence, because its bad. Everything will work itself out.

Abolish rape, because its bad. Everything will work itself out.

How will I do these things? What will I replace the police with? Don't ask me faggots, I'm the ideas guy. You figure it out.
 
Anytime some dumbass comes at me with this "the police are based off slavecatchers!" bullshit I just bust out this old chestnut.
1602111699242.png

A relief (reconstructed above) from the 5th Dynasty tomb of Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum depicts a police officer apprehending a thief in the market place with one of these monkeys. The monkey is restraining the thief by the leg as the officer approaches to arrest him. Dogs were used primarily in the same way, for apprehension, but also served in their familiar capacity as guardians. The breeds most often depicted as police dogs from this period are the Basenji and Ibizan.

Police in one form or another have existed in every civilization of sufficient advancement since the dawn of history. Pick a time, pick a place, they had cops of some stripe. For the same reason we have them now - to keep jogger behavior under control.
 
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I know someone posted Judge Dredd, but prison still existed in MegaCity 1. Its just that you were sentenced instantly.

Yeah, like people will mystically become pacifistic. No. All it takes is one guy to fuck all that up, which is why we don't operate on systems where one guy can fuck everything. Like, "Oh if we just adopt this people will hold hands and sing kumbaya" Uh, no, people don't work like that. If people know they won't go to jail or get punished, they will indulge on their baser urges. Count on fucking that. To this cunt its probably fine if the whites all get hurt, but realistically this would destroy every community in America.

I mean, it was to be divisive, but I think people are tired of this shit. I mean, there's no real choice these days. Moderation and fence sitting are dead.

They're really no longer interested in solutions. Abolishing prisons is a fucking pipe dream that is counter to human nature and wouldn't work unless you lobotomized and castrated 75% of the human population and that's being fucking generous. It is literally, not figuratively, impossible. Never, in the history of humanity, has a society operated without punishment. From the most primitive to the most complex. From the most poor to the most wealthy.

Prison is a solution because it takes you away from things you enjoy, deprives you of opportunity and has a cost to your offenses. But it doesn't render you homeless and (usually) doesn't result in you maimed or dead. Shit, even Star Trek struggled with that. There's an episode of DS9 where this society doesn't have prison. But it has you live out the time you would have spent in prison as a dream that plays out in seemingly real time. So like 1 hour is 50 years or some shit. Which leaves you fucking mentally traumatized but you don't really spend a day in jail. Its because there's simply no good solutions TO prison time. The only solutions we have are more extreme ones. Exile doesn't work because of the ubiquity of travel. So we're left with deprivation of property, maiming and death. Are those three REALLY better than fucking prison?

Like offer me one solution to abolishing prison that serves the same purpose and isn't as harsh as deprivation of property (IE: Rendering you homeless and jobless), maiming or execution. Hint: You can't. Because one doesn't fucking exist. Because if it did we would have found it. You think society WANTS prisons? We'd jump at a chance for a cheaper, better alternative. The problem is, there is no cheaper and better alternative. There's cheaper, but it won't be fucking better, I assure you of that. The thing is we don't really know how to reduce crime effectively en mass without prison. And we don't have a better alternative that isn't absurdly expensive. And even those absurdly expensive solutions aren't guaranteed or better than prison.

This stance makes absolutely no sense. If you cannot present a workable alternative, shut the fuck up about retardedly extreme solutions like this.

"Oh, just abolish prisons, they're bad."

"So, uh, what about the criminals?"

"IDGAF, it'll work itself out."

That's not a fucking acceptable answer. If you present no alternative, why in the fuck should I listen to you and not think you're a fucking moron? I wish we could live without prisons and police. I also wish I was hot and could live forever and the sun would never explode and fuck supermodels. Yeah, my wishes and dreams mean jack fucking shit. Wishes don't fucking matter. That's just your wish. It isn't real. Just because you 'believe' it doesn't make it approachable or even remotely a solution. I'm tired of dumb cunts like this and the betas and virtue signalers who clap mindlessly. Its fucking pointless. Here i can do it too!

Abolish police, they're bad. Everything will work itself out.

Abolish violence, because its bad. Everything will work itself out.

Abolish rape, because its bad. Everything will work itself out.

How will I do these things? What will I replace the police with? Don't ask me faggots, I'm the ideas guy. You figure it out.

The left today operates on the principal of “if we wish for it hard enough it’ll come true!”

It’s literally toddler tier logic and yet these are the people who want to seize control of every aspect of life and society, people with the minds of literal children.
 
They're the best things.

But well, tbh, I don't see "slavery" for the short time it was, as terrible or any different from everyone else's struggles.
In the first place, any given struggle is unique in the way that it plays out. For example, when talking African-Americans specifically, it's not just slavery one considers when talking about African-American history, but the disenfranchisement African-Americans faced even after the abolishing of an institution that lasted about 250 years (what do you mean "short time"?), especially in the South. Jim Crow, the beefing up of the welfare state, the war on drugs, the undermining of their family structure especially because of the latter two factors-- the situation is entirely its own. Compare to African countries, where some of them do well, some of them do okay (if underdeveloped), some of them do very poorly, and in the latter two categories their struggle has to do with inept or outright kleptocratic government officials who won't invest in the society they preside over because they want to invest in their own pockets. You talk about women being second class citizens, but if we take the condition of specifically white women in America, then the movement towards first class citizenry was inherently less complicated than that of the black woman because they didn't suffer the additional disenfranchisement borne from being black.

It's absolutely asinine to look at the African-American plight and the African plight and just throw your hands up and say "oh, well, they suck here and they suck there so I guess they just suck in general". That's completely lazy and deliberately ignorant, in service of a room-temperature IQ gotcha that misses the bold print point that the circumstances, and their products, are different.

None of this is to cast any community as a total victim unable to save themselves, but you have to actually analyze the totality of a community's plight and its actual consequences instead of going "some bad things happened, and these people suck". It's on the same wavelength as dismissing crime statistics out of hand-- it's shallow, and it yields neither meaningful discussion nor greater understanding.

That, and it ignores the systemic issues of other, more developed countries. South Korea and Japan both have grand repopulation issues and remarkably high suicide rates, which are reflective of societal malaise and poor support structures. The United States is suffering the disintegration of its cultural cohesion while we decide between two geriatrics in our quadrennial """lesser of two evils""" competition, but aside from that has been suffering the disintegration of the family unit as well as the growth of a healthy hedonist (in effect) movement of mainly demoralized youth that can do everything up to lighting cities on fire and running interference for those who do.

Canada... is.

And yes, nearly all anime and all K-Pop is mindlessly produced, mechanically constructed drivel that's bred entire communities of borderline mentally ill quasi-autists increasingly unequipped to handle stable adulthood or even real life interaction overall, some of whom are two steps away from being honest-to-God hauled into a party van either as the result of their emotional stuntedness, sexual degeneracy, or both.

Reading pages upon pages of borderline shut-ins calling an allegedly adult anime character with the proportions of a starving southern Sudanese child "T H I C C" is really the tip of the iceberg, as is reading pages upon pages of extremely lonely men wishing they could get disemboweled by a cute girl that doesn't exist.
 
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Anytime some dumbass comes at me with this "the police are based off slavecatchers!" bullshit I just bust out this old chestnut.
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Police in one form or another have existed in every civilization of sufficient advancement since the dawn of history. Pick a time, pick a place, they had cops of some stripe. For the same reason we have them now - to keep jogger behavior under control.

Wait the police had attack monkeys? We need to bring that to America. Now.
 
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The problem is that right now we have primates attacking the cops.
If those cops care more about supporting corrupt mayors and police chiefs who shield their attackers from punishment, then those cops deserve everything that comes to them.
 
And yes, nearly all anime and all K-Pop is mindlessly produced, mechanically constructed drivel that's bred entire communities of borderline mentally ill quasi-autists increasingly unequipped to handle stable adulthood or even real life interaction overall, some of whom are two steps away from being honest-to-God hauled into a party van either as the result of their emotional stuntedness, sexual degeneracy, or both.

This isn't the fault of any particular form of media. It comes from the social maladies you described - alienation, lack of direction, the sense that there's nothing to achieve in life other than collecting paychecks to spend on consumer goods. This leads people to seek meaning in crazy ways. Fandoms are a focus for this but if they didn't exist, the people affected wouldn't be mentally healthy, they'd be going nuts over something else.
 
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