https://medium.com/@ynceiche/why-you-shouldnt-use-kiwi-farms-to-source-callouts-52df2aabbf62
https://archive.li/yzefw
Online predators are currently an unfortunate fact of the internet, and those who are well-known and popular do sometimes end up getting exposed. In internet callouts across many social media platforms, there’s one source of information that’s a constant: Kiwi Farms. A lot of people will defend the use of this forum as a source, despite the glaringly obvious ableism, transphobia, homophobia, and… listen, listing every shitty thing they say or do would take up this entire article. So I’m not going to.
I’m also not going to try to provide a psychological profile of a typical member, or generalize them all as sad white guy basement dwellers. That kind of writing, while fun and sometimes illuminating, can also be stomped on by one person saying “well, I don’t fit that exact stereotype, so what I do is totally different than what this writer is talking about”. I really don’t know who most of the Farmers are, due to their inclination to “hide their powerlevel” and avoid revealing personal information. Ultimately, who they are in the context of callout culture at large is what they do, and that’s not something too difficult to figure out.
I’m worried about the concept that the primary purpose of Kiwi Farms is to unmask predators, because it’s not and never has been. Maybe there are some crusaders on the site who genuinely care about safety and morality, but they’d be working against the grain of the site and its intended use. KF began as an extension of a wiki that cataloged the doings and foibles of one singular person, Christine Weston Chandler, better known by the abbreviation CWC.
She is still a major feature of Kiwi Farms’ forums, although it seems that targeted harassment against her has died down. A lot of Christine’s behavior is strange and inappropriate, but she’s clearly not dangerous and has a very limited sphere of actual personal influence. She’s a trans woman with a mental disability who lives at home and makes fanart. There’s no moral imperative to make fun of her or provide her personal information to the internet at large. The people at Kiwi Farms do so because they find it funny. This is reflected in their treatment of everyone they write about.
I understand that sometimes, on behalf of the victims of genuinely harmful people, Kiwi Farms is used as a source not out of approval, but out of a perceived necessity. The problem I have with this is that Kiwi Farms is a forum for making fun of “LOLcows”, not a journalistic outlet. They’re not under any obligation to engage in balanced reporting, verify what they post, or apply any sort of hierarchy whatsoever to the information they provide.
One effect that using Kiwi Farms as a source has on callout culture is to “flatten out” the severity of accusations and offenses. To find useful information on dangerous people, you have to wade through useless, bigoted humor and extensive discussions of petty bullshit that simply isn’t on the same level. A thread can contain an equal amount of information on its subject’s pedophilia and bad behavior in a Pokemon roleplay. Someone who has their address revealed might be an animal abuser, and might be a person who just makes a comic about being transgender.
Something else worth noting is that LGBT people, especially trans women, are the site’s bread and butter when it comes to public mockery. KF does discuss a number of other topics, including MRAs and cosplay drama, but it disproportionately focuses on marginalized groups. Even when the allegations are completely accurate, a much harsher light is shined on marginalized creators and public figures. These are not, in general, people in positions of power.
Screw-ups that would never stick to bona fide celebrities somehow end up dogging small-time queer artists for years. It’s not a coincidence that these are the easiest targets, and it’s not right to endorse a system of accountability that constantly knocks down people who simply cannot afford to take those hits, and leaves more successful, protected creators unquestioned.
Victims of abuse and people who have uncovered scams are starting to come forward on Kiwi Farms, which is not great first of all because (as I said earlier) there aren’t a lot of protections in place to ensure that they’re not bullshitting or only revealing some of the truth. And there never will be, because that simply isn’t what KF is all about.
I also don’t want people not affiliated with that forum or their goals to have to deal with the intentionally upsetting, obnoxious content on the Farms just to get their message out. When Kiwi Farms is accepted as a source, that enhances the credibility of a website that spends most of its time and energy insulting people, digging through their old internet posts, and revealing their home addresses for no special reason. Well, other than that they can and it’s fun for them. When Kiwi Farms does reveal abusers, scammers, and harassers for what they are, it’s as a side effect.
So, what should people do about it? Targeting the site itself with DMCAs, legal threats, and doxxing of its members doesn’t seem to do much, if anything. The man behind the website explains that “I am an insane person on the Internet with no assets. There is nothing you can take from me,” and he’s… not wrong. First of all, as a community we can speak up about predators on other platforms if at all possible, because KF is not an appropriate one and doesn’t even really claim to be.
We can also attempt to find other ways to verify information outside of Kiwi Farms, and not immediately take information found there at face value. Lastly, we can forgive vulnerable people for lesser offenses and allow room for them to grow and change, instead of periodically dogpiling on folks for things that aren’t actually unforgivable. Or, y’know, we could continue to support via inaction a platform with the sole mission of pointing and laughing. Whatever.
https://archive.li/yzefw
Online predators are currently an unfortunate fact of the internet, and those who are well-known and popular do sometimes end up getting exposed. In internet callouts across many social media platforms, there’s one source of information that’s a constant: Kiwi Farms. A lot of people will defend the use of this forum as a source, despite the glaringly obvious ableism, transphobia, homophobia, and… listen, listing every shitty thing they say or do would take up this entire article. So I’m not going to.
I’m also not going to try to provide a psychological profile of a typical member, or generalize them all as sad white guy basement dwellers. That kind of writing, while fun and sometimes illuminating, can also be stomped on by one person saying “well, I don’t fit that exact stereotype, so what I do is totally different than what this writer is talking about”. I really don’t know who most of the Farmers are, due to their inclination to “hide their powerlevel” and avoid revealing personal information. Ultimately, who they are in the context of callout culture at large is what they do, and that’s not something too difficult to figure out.
I’m worried about the concept that the primary purpose of Kiwi Farms is to unmask predators, because it’s not and never has been. Maybe there are some crusaders on the site who genuinely care about safety and morality, but they’d be working against the grain of the site and its intended use. KF began as an extension of a wiki that cataloged the doings and foibles of one singular person, Christine Weston Chandler, better known by the abbreviation CWC.
She is still a major feature of Kiwi Farms’ forums, although it seems that targeted harassment against her has died down. A lot of Christine’s behavior is strange and inappropriate, but she’s clearly not dangerous and has a very limited sphere of actual personal influence. She’s a trans woman with a mental disability who lives at home and makes fanart. There’s no moral imperative to make fun of her or provide her personal information to the internet at large. The people at Kiwi Farms do so because they find it funny. This is reflected in their treatment of everyone they write about.
I understand that sometimes, on behalf of the victims of genuinely harmful people, Kiwi Farms is used as a source not out of approval, but out of a perceived necessity. The problem I have with this is that Kiwi Farms is a forum for making fun of “LOLcows”, not a journalistic outlet. They’re not under any obligation to engage in balanced reporting, verify what they post, or apply any sort of hierarchy whatsoever to the information they provide.
One effect that using Kiwi Farms as a source has on callout culture is to “flatten out” the severity of accusations and offenses. To find useful information on dangerous people, you have to wade through useless, bigoted humor and extensive discussions of petty bullshit that simply isn’t on the same level. A thread can contain an equal amount of information on its subject’s pedophilia and bad behavior in a Pokemon roleplay. Someone who has their address revealed might be an animal abuser, and might be a person who just makes a comic about being transgender.
Something else worth noting is that LGBT people, especially trans women, are the site’s bread and butter when it comes to public mockery. KF does discuss a number of other topics, including MRAs and cosplay drama, but it disproportionately focuses on marginalized groups. Even when the allegations are completely accurate, a much harsher light is shined on marginalized creators and public figures. These are not, in general, people in positions of power.
Screw-ups that would never stick to bona fide celebrities somehow end up dogging small-time queer artists for years. It’s not a coincidence that these are the easiest targets, and it’s not right to endorse a system of accountability that constantly knocks down people who simply cannot afford to take those hits, and leaves more successful, protected creators unquestioned.
Victims of abuse and people who have uncovered scams are starting to come forward on Kiwi Farms, which is not great first of all because (as I said earlier) there aren’t a lot of protections in place to ensure that they’re not bullshitting or only revealing some of the truth. And there never will be, because that simply isn’t what KF is all about.
I also don’t want people not affiliated with that forum or their goals to have to deal with the intentionally upsetting, obnoxious content on the Farms just to get their message out. When Kiwi Farms is accepted as a source, that enhances the credibility of a website that spends most of its time and energy insulting people, digging through their old internet posts, and revealing their home addresses for no special reason. Well, other than that they can and it’s fun for them. When Kiwi Farms does reveal abusers, scammers, and harassers for what they are, it’s as a side effect.
So, what should people do about it? Targeting the site itself with DMCAs, legal threats, and doxxing of its members doesn’t seem to do much, if anything. The man behind the website explains that “I am an insane person on the Internet with no assets. There is nothing you can take from me,” and he’s… not wrong. First of all, as a community we can speak up about predators on other platforms if at all possible, because KF is not an appropriate one and doesn’t even really claim to be.
We can also attempt to find other ways to verify information outside of Kiwi Farms, and not immediately take information found there at face value. Lastly, we can forgive vulnerable people for lesser offenses and allow room for them to grow and change, instead of periodically dogpiling on folks for things that aren’t actually unforgivable. Or, y’know, we could continue to support via inaction a platform with the sole mission of pointing and laughing. Whatever.
![:\](/styles/custom/emotes/svg/chris-confused.svg "Confused :\")
