World of Warcraft

[Corn Flakes]

I would argue that WoW has a lot more "someone is a special hero with a powerful destiny" storylines than FF14 does - I'd go so far as to say that the "a unique and gifted hero" trope applies to all of WoW's main cast. The main reason WoW doesn't have a cohesive story is because the "named cast" are so much better than the players in all aspects that it ruins immersion.

That's not how it started, though. From Vanilla to Wrath of the Lich King even if the players weren't acknowledged by name in the story they were still usually the ones killing the bad guy. Even in Icecrown Citadel, although Tirion Fordring breaks Frostmourne, stunlocks the Lich King and saves the player character, they had the courtesy of letting the players wail on Arthas until he died. There were a lot more "help NPC defeat X" fights, and a lot more "thank you for doing this, I'll take it from here" quests in later expansions.

It doesn't help that the story and the NPCs are written in the most retarded way possible. Capturing Garrosh and trying him for war crimes, of all things? With all the enemies that wanted him dead on the spot? With the player characters who actually brought him down to 0HP who wanted him dead on the spot? Talk about the entire world holding the idiot ball there.

 

[Smug Chuckler]

It doesn't help that the story and the NPCs are written in the most retarded way possible. Capturing Garrosh and trying him for war crimes, of all things? With all the enemies that wanted him dead on the spot? With the player characters who actually brought him down to 0HP who wanted him dead on the spot? Talk about the entire world holding the idiot ball there

It's like if Russians find Hitler in some bunker and after years of fighting and hardship were ready to shoot him, then all the sudden Du Gaulle comes out of nowhere and tells everybody that we're not savages and we must have a trial or something before taking him away unopposed.

 

[Tanner Glass]

That's not how it started, though. From Vanilla to Wrath of the Lich King even if the players weren't acknowledged by name in the story they were still usually the ones killing the bad guy. Even in Icecrown Citadel, although Tirion Fordring breaks Frostmourne, stunlocks the Lich King and saves the player character, they had the courtesy of letting the players wail on Arthas until he died. There were a lot more "help NPC defeat X" fights, and a lot more "thank you for doing this, I'll take it from here" quests in later expansions.

It doesn't help that the story and the NPCs are written in the most retarded way possible. Capturing Garrosh and trying him for war crimes, of all things? With all the enemies that wanted him dead on the spot? With the player characters who actually brought him down to 0HP who wanted him dead on the spot? Talk about the entire world holding the idiot ball there.

It's not just about "who kills the bad guy" it more about "who matters and does cool things".

In Vanilla (and I'm not a WoW scholar) but part of the Ony chain has Bolvar Fordragon save you from an ambush that has him soloing a gigantic pack of level 60 elites. In Vanilla and TBC, some legendary items are just items that "more important" characters used. Medivh/Karazhan are just a gigantic showcase of "here's a bunch of cool things Mages could do if we let them be cool" - a gigantic haunted ghost castle, spectral butlers, haunted chess games, self-polymorphing, a staff that teleports you to your house, and so on.

Tirion Fordring doesn't just save the player character in ICC - he also saves them if they're a death knight (during which time he fights the Lich King and forces him to retreat) and is directly responsible for the creation of the Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Dawn. It's Tirion's campaign into Northrend that's the main focus of the entire expansion (complete with Tirion's training camp complete with Horse Jousting). And if his dick wasn't huge enough just yet - he's also the wielder of Ashbringer, one of the most famed weapons in Warcraft lore. The player character paladin is wearing something akin to a dress and being told "you can totally go ret next week but the druid no showed and you know how it is, please go holy".

There are so many other version of this, but the gist is that the "lore" characters are just (intentionally so) made to be much cooler than the Player Character is ever allowed to be. By Cataclysm (with Thrall) it reaches absurd levels, but it's always been a core part of the game. I'd compare it to playing a DND campaign with a bad DM named "Kevin" - and the setting includes a Warrior/King named "Kevinor" who is the coolest person to live and gets all the girls and is loved by everyone and blah, blah... (See also - WoW's actual self-insert characters).

 

[Privilege Power Hour]

That's not how it started, though. From Vanilla to Wrath of the Lich King even if the players weren't acknowledged by name in the story they were still usually the ones killing the bad guy. Even in Icecrown Citadel, although Tirion Fordring breaks Frostmourne, stunlocks the Lich King and saves the player character, they had the courtesy of letting the players wail on Arthas until he died. There were a lot more "help NPC defeat X" fights, and a lot more "thank you for doing this, I'll take it from here" quests in later expansions.

It doesn't help that the story and the NPCs are written in the most retarded way possible. Capturing Garrosh and trying him for war crimes, of all things? With all the enemies that wanted him dead on the spot? With the player characters who actually brought him down to 0HP who wanted him dead on the spot? Talk about the entire world holding the idiot ball there.

Even better, the trial (which was the entire reason for WoD happening) was entirely in a book! All of a sudden you were told "oh yeah Garrosh decided to time travel and now you have to time travel too so get to it" when the last we had seen of him in game was saying he was going to go on trial. And yes, the only explanation for the characters' actions is that they are all mental invalids. They're not even fun to be around any more. At least when Metzen was writing, while the plot wasn't good, I at least liked the characters. I barely made it through the opening in the Maw in SL because I just wanted everyone to shut up. I ended up having SL be the first expansion I didn't even hit level cap because everything was so boring and there were no characters I enjoyed at all.

 

[Übertroon]

It would always be difficult to give the player character importance with a static world and no cutscenes.

All MMOs will still have you collect bear asses though

 

[Pig Boss]

Your hunter is a dwarf that tamed a bear.

Yeah but Bjarn is a good boy and I fed him enough meat to give Onyxia clogged arteries so don't talk shit about my pet, Tanner. I assume every dwarven hunter found him at some point but I ended up keeping him all the way through 2.4 into Mists of Pandaria

 

[Gutpuke]

Yeah but Bjarn is a good boy and I fed him enough meat to give Onyxia clogged arteries so don't talk shit about my pet, Tanner. I assume every dwarven hunter found him at some point but I ended up keeping him all the way through 2.4 into Mists of Pandaria
View attachment 2422615

One of my friends once fucking killed Bjarn. I still haven't forgiven him.

 

[ZMOT]

And if his dick wasn't huge enough just yet - he's also the wielder of Ashbringer, one of the most famed weapons in Warcraft lore. The player character paladin is wearing something akin to a dress and being told "you can totally go ret next week but the druid no showed and you know how it is, please go holy".

and then you get asbringer - but so does every other paladin. the crappy writing is only one ingredient in the shit-flavoured cake.

It would always be difficult to give the player character importance with a static world and no cutscenes.

All MMOs will still have you collect bear asses though

well, there's only so much you can technically do in MMOs. there are still options to make it less aggravating tho, like reducing the number of quests, shorten their duration or stretching them out enough so it only becomes a small part of the whole "quest".
I think eso has mostly collect shit that happens to be around mobs (gives you the option to just sneak around) or kill stuff directly, you're not genociding whole areas for quest drops with a 5% dropchance...

 

[Well Intentioned]

It's not just about "who kills the bad guy" it more about "who matters and does cool things".

In Vanilla (and I'm not a WoW scholar) but part of the Ony chain has Bolvar Fordragon save you from an ambush that has him soloing a gigantic pack of level 60 elites. In Vanilla and TBC, some legendary items are just items that "more important" characters used. Medivh/Karazhan are just a gigantic showcase of "here's a bunch of cool things Mages could do if we let them be cool" - a gigantic haunted ghost castle, spectral butlers, haunted chess games, self-polymorphing, a staff that teleports you to your house, and so on.

Tirion Fordring doesn't just save the player character in ICC - he also saves them if they're a death knight (during which time he fights the Lich King and forces him to retreat) and is directly responsible for the creation of the Knights of the Ebon Blade and the Argent Dawn. It's Tirion's campaign into Northrend that's the main focus of the entire expansion (complete with Tirion's training camp complete with Horse Jousting). And if his dick wasn't huge enough just yet - he's also the wielder of Ashbringer, one of the most famed weapons in Warcraft lore. The player character paladin is wearing something akin to a dress and being told "you can totally go ret next week but the druid no showed and you know how it is, please go holy".

I think that the Onyxia chain was done pretty well. The PCs investigate the disappearance of a single Alliance soldier, which breaks down into a far-reaching conspiracy where a fucking dragon is trying to take over Stormwind. There were also other narrative seeds sprinkled throughout, with the Missing Diplomat quest. It's a nice build and makes the world feel interconnected.

Bolvar 'saving' the day works only because he's not the one who pushes Onyxia's shit in. Yeah, he saves you from an untimely ambush, but the ultimate villain and goal -- Onyxia -- is your thing. Bolvar doesn't show up when Onyxia is at 5% or whatever.

Tirion's storyline in Vanilla was pretty solid, too. You basically assist a disgraced paladin and help him regain his honor by reuniting him with his son. Where it went off the rails was as you described -- where he takes over the Argent Dawn and turns it into the Argent Crusade, then purifies Ashbringer, then single-handedly drives off Arthas and frees the Death Knights, then leads the vanguard against Arthas into Ice Crown.

Shit like the Argent Dawn and Cenarion Circle had the potential to give players agency. I really liked the idea of a partisan organization where PCs could unite under, away from Alliance/Horde bullshit, that allowed for characters that sort of went against type (like the original leader of the Argent Dawn, who was a Forsaken dude who viewed undeath as an illness.) There needed to be more of that shit, instead of just having it become another masturbatory aid for NPCs, like you described.

The Ashbringer thing, too, was a bloody shame. It was clear that they had very different intentions with Ashbringer, what with the Corrupted Ashbringer being an item you could get in Naxx and the scripted events it would spark if you went to certain places with it equipped.

 

[Pig Boss]

I think that the Onyxia chain was done pretty well. The PCs investigate the disappearance of a single Alliance soldier, which breaks down into a far-reaching conspiracy where a fucking dragon is trying to take over Stormwind. There were also other narrative seeds sprinkled throughout, with the Missing Diplomat quest. It's a nice build and makes the world feel interconnected.

Bolvar 'saving' the day works only because he's not the one who pushes Onyxia's shit in. Yeah, he saves you from an untimely ambush, but the ultimate villain and goal -- Onyxia -- is your thing. Bolvar doesn't show up when Onyxia is at 5% or whatever.

Tirion's storyline in Vanilla was pretty solid, too. You basically assist a disgraced paladin and help him regain his honor by reuniting him with his son. Where it went off the rails was as you described -- where he takes over the Argent Dawn and turns it into the Argent Crusade, then purifies Ashbringer, then single-handedly drives off Arthas and frees the Death Knights, then leads the vanguard against Arthas into Ice Crown.

Shit like the Argent Dawn and Cenarion Circle had the potential to give players agency. I really liked the idea of a partisan organization where PCs could unite under, away from Alliance/Horde bullshit, that allowed for characters that sort of went against type (like the original leader of the Argent Dawn, who was a Forsaken dude who viewed undeath as an illness.) There needed to be more of that shit, instead of just having it become another masturbatory aid for NPCs, like you described.

The Ashbringer thing, too, was a bloody shame. It was clear that they had very different intentions with Ashbringer, what with the Corrupted Ashbringer being an item you could get in Naxx and the scripted events it would spark if you went to certain places with it equipped.

I remember a lot of vanilla quests were fun and far reaching, it was full of collecting bear asses and donkey livers for sure but between that shit you ended up finding these mysteries that led to all kinds of speculation. Do you remember tracking down Stalvan Mistmantle for his butchering of a young girl in Darkshire, you'd traipse all over the human zones to track him down. Hell, all of Duskwood had some great quests and world building. The mystery that was presented there that you slowly unravelled. Just who are the Dark Riders, what happened to Raven Hill, what did Jitters find in that cave and what's the score with this massive undead bastard who just merced me while I was AFK?
Travelling the world to unravel the mystery of the Scythe of Elune.
Helping the fallen Hero of the Horde, tracking down blood mages, working with a Demon Hunter, imprisoning a demon, travelling the world for relics and tools. It felt like a real investigation and procedure, not just sitting back and watching an NPC in a poorly machinimated cut-scene.
The last great quest I remember was desperately trying to save Crusader Bridenbrad, using all the connections, favours, boons and ass-pulls we could muster.
Then Cata came and wiped all those away, drowned zones, burned away favourite areas, turned characters into mockeries of themselves. Helping Lakeshire rebuild from the ravages of war, protecting people in a small town without a real army from invading Blackrock orcs, raiding gnolls and dangerous wildlife became a retarded Rambo parody. Classic zones were 'revamped' a word which here means 'they had fire spattered around them'. Not that anyone who'd played the game wanted to see them but we were left with no choice because there was fuck-all in terms on end-game content.
This has gotten away from me a little bit but essentially, fuck Dave "Fargo" Kosak and the horse he rode in on.

 

[Übertroon]

I remember a lot of vanilla quests were fun and far reaching, it was full of collecting bear asses and donkey livers for sure but between that shit you ended up finding these mysteries that led to all kinds of speculation. Do you remember tracking down Stalvan Mistmantle for his butchering of a young girl in Darkshire, you'd traipse all over the human zones to track him down. Hell, all of Duskwood had some great quests and world building. The mystery that was presented there that you slowly unravelled. Just who are the Dark Riders, what happened to Raven Hill, what did Jitters find in that cave and what's the score with this massive undead bastard who just merced me while I was AFK?
Travelling the world to unravel the mystery of the Scythe of Elune.
Helping the fallen Hero of the Horde, tracking down blood mages, working with a Demon Hunter, imprisoning a demon, travelling the world for relics and tools. It felt like a real investigation and procedure, not just sitting back and watching an NPC in a poorly machinimated cut-scene.
The last great quest I remember was desperately trying to save Crusader Bridenbrad, using all the connections, favours, boons and ass-pulls we could muster.
Then Cata came and wiped all those away, drowned zones, burned away favourite areas, turned characters into mockeries of themselves. Helping Lakeshire rebuild from the ravages of war, protecting people in a small town without a real army from invading Blackrock orcs, raiding gnolls and dangerous wildlife became a retarded Rambo parody. Classic zones were 'revamped' a word which here means 'they had fire spattered around them'. Not that anyone who'd played the game wanted to see them but we were left with no choice because there was fuck-all in terms on end-game content.
This has gotten away from me a little bit but essentially, fuck Dave "Fargo" Kosak and the horse he rode in on.

The Rambo parody was such a unimmersive quest line, immediatly sucks you out of the story.
It was nice to have a sequel to some zone storylines, but it means nothing to new players, and there were no way to experience the old storylines.
Every zone also got these meme quests that broke the fourth wall.

It's bad when wacky quests in FF14 are more immersive than normal quests in WoW just because they're not parodies of other media

 

[Well Intentioned]

I remember a lot of vanilla quests were fun and far reaching, it was full of collecting bear asses and donkey livers for sure but between that shit you ended up finding these mysteries that led to all kinds of speculation. Do you remember tracking down Stalvan Mistmantle for his butchering of a young girl in Darkshire, you'd traipse all over the human zones to track him down. Hell, all of Duskwood had some great quests and world building. The mystery that was presented there that you slowly unravelled. Just who are the Dark Riders, what happened to Raven Hill, what did Jitters find in that cave and what's the score with this massive undead bastard who just merced me while I was AFK?
Travelling the world to unravel the mystery of the Scythe of Elune.
Helping the fallen Hero of the Horde, tracking down blood mages, working with a Demon Hunter, imprisoning a demon, travelling the world for relics and tools. It felt like a real investigation and procedure, not just sitting back and watching an NPC in a poorly machinimated cut-scene.
The last great quest I remember was desperately trying to save Crusader Bridenbrad, using all the connections, favours, boons and ass-pulls we could muster.
Then Cata came and wiped all those away, drowned zones, burned away favourite areas, turned characters into mockeries of themselves. Helping Lakeshire rebuild from the ravages of war, protecting people in a small town without a real army from invading Blackrock orcs, raiding gnolls and dangerous wildlife became a retarded Rambo parody. Classic zones were 'revamped' a word which here means 'they had fire spattered around them'. Not that anyone who'd played the game wanted to see them but we were left with no choice because there was fuck-all in terms on end-game content.
This has gotten away from me a little bit but essentially, fuck Dave "Fargo" Kosak and the horse he rode in on.

Yeah, there were a lot of narrative seeds that were planted and were alluding to bigger things. Like, setting up the Silithids and AQ with a number of questlines throughout Kalimdor, or the 'Where's Malfurion?' and the problems going on with the Emerald Dream. It really built a solid narrative foundation and a lot of directions for them to continue to grow and build, particularly since there were a lot of areas that weren't available or fully developed in Vanilla.

But there were also a ton that just went nowhere or got repurposed into dumb shit. Cataclysm was pretty much where I said 'fuck this shit.' There was the aforementioned Rambo parody in Redridge, but also crap like the incredibly dumb Indiana Jones parody in Uldum, where it felt like every 30 seconds there was a new over scripted cut scene. Or the silly Hatfields and McCoys plotline with 2 dwarf clans in Twilight Highlands. Or the CSI parody in Westfall. Like, here's a world-ending event, so let's make it as silly and ridiculous as possible.

The pop culture references were fine when it was something you had to dig for, like clicking on a unit 400 times, or it's the name of a grey item or whatever. Putting that shit front and center was incredibly stupid. The fucking Deathwing encounter had a Point Break reference with Patrick Swayze and Keanu Reeves stand-ins.

What's the story with Dave Kosak? I mean, outside of his role. Anything dumb he's said over the years?

 

[Smug Chuckler]

What's the story with Dave Kosak? I mean, outside of his role. Anything dumb he's said over the years?

He left like a few months after Afrasiabi and gathered chicks for the cosby suite from what I'm hearing. He looks batshit crazy tho.

 

[Muppet Molester]

Yeah, there were a lot of narrative seeds that were planted and were alluding to bigger things. Like, setting up the Silithids and AQ with a number of questlines throughout Kalimdor, or the 'Where's Malfurion?' and the problems going on with the Emerald Dream. It really built a solid narrative foundation and a lot of directions for them to continue to grow and build, particularly since there were a lot of areas that weren't available or fully developed in Vanilla.

I think the worst thing is a lot of these lingering plot threads that had amassed through the years either got resolved off screen, or had to wait till Legion to be instantly answered in a completely underwhelming and unsatisfying way that only serves to jerk off the player.

 

[Pig Boss]

Yeah, there were a lot of narrative seeds that were planted and were alluding to bigger things. Like, setting up the Silithids and AQ with a number of questlines throughout Kalimdor, or the 'Where's Malfurion?' and the problems going on with the Emerald Dream. It really built a solid narrative foundation and a lot of directions for them to continue to grow and build, particularly since there were a lot of areas that weren't available or fully developed in Vanilla.

But there were also a ton that just went nowhere or got repurposed into dumb shit. Cataclysm was pretty much where I said 'fuck this shit.' There was the aforementioned Rambo parody in Redridge, but also crap like the incredibly dumb Indiana Jones parody in Uldum, where it felt like every 30 seconds there was a new over scripted cut scene. Or the silly Hatfields and McCoys plotline with 2 dwarf clans in Twilight Highlands. Or the CSI parody in Westfall. Like, here's a world-ending event, so let's make it as silly and ridiculous as possible.

The pop culture references were fine when it was something you had to dig for, like clicking on a unit 400 times, or it's the name of a grey item or whatever. Putting that shit front and center was incredibly stupid. The fucking Deathwing encounter had a Point Break reference with Patrick Swayze and Keanu Reeves stand-ins.

What's the story with Dave Kosak? I mean, outside of his role. Anything dumb he's said over the years?

He wrote a great (when I was 14) web comic called Flintlocke's Guide to Azeroth and it was very funny (when I was 14) and was taken on as a writer. However, the humour in the comic could not be translated to a game rated T for Teen so it had to be neutered. Also he's responsible for Cata's writing, he may not have written all of it but he signed off on it.
I don't mind real world or pop culture references when they're subtle enough and only speds like me can pick up on them like the Junior Technician 3rd Grade Bracers from Netherstorm, which I'm pretty sure is a Red Dwarf reference. Fuck, I didn't totally hate Lario and Muigi in Un'goro, I really liked Linkin's quest as well because it gave you a cool photograph which I still have stuffed in a bank vault somewhere along with my Dartol's wand, Light of Elune and brap crystal (Chained Essence of Eranikus) from ST.

 

[Thiletonomics]

The ending storyline cinematic for 9.1 is very lacking, to say in the nicest terms:

At this point, given how disjointed the WoW lore is right now, would even hackjob writers such as Neil Druckmann, Rian Johnson, Kevin Smith, or Vince Russo, be considered as better writers than the people who are in charge of this mess?

 

[The Door]

The ending storyline cinematic for 9.1 is very lacking, to say in the nicest terms:

At this point, given how disjointed the WoW lore is right now, would even hackjob writers such as Neil Druckmann, Rian Johnson, Kevin Smith, or Vince Russo, be considered as better writers than the people who are in charge of this mess?

You could compare them, but why bother? They are just another head of the shitshow of a hydra known as modern western storytelling. Mary sues, mystery boxes, shitting on the works of the past, and subversion for the sake of subversion. They all use the same tools.

 

[Well Intentioned]

The ending storyline cinematic for 9.1 is very lacking, to say in the nicest terms:

At this point, given how disjointed the WoW lore is right now, would even hackjob writers such as Neil Druckmann, Rian Johnson, Kevin Smith, or Vince Russo, be considered as better writers than the people who are in charge of this mess?

This is fucking terrible.

They are trying so very very very very hard at the redemption angle for Sylvanas.

Danuser really wants everyone to love his waifu as much as he does.

I vote for Russo. There might be an entire raid tier that is nothing but Dragon on a Pole encounters, but at least it'll be lively.

 

[ZMOT]

This is fucking terrible.

They are trying so very very very very hard at the redemption angle for Sylvanas.

Danuser really wants everyone to love his waifu as much as he does.

I vote for Russo. There might be an entire raid tier that is nothing but Dragon on a Pole encounters, but at least it'll be lively.

is that a leak? because holy fuck those models look like shit, fucking tranny skyrim modders do a better job when they put horsecocks on bimbo companions...

 

[GenociderSyo]

After that cut scene there's even more to prove redemption arc. Speaking to Uther you get:
""When Arthas struck me down Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.

Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.

To feel the missing fragment restored well it has caused me to reflect on many of the choices I have made.""

So Sylvanas's comment at end of her video was probably in regards to her last moments thinking that Arthas was going to attack.