YABookgate

[Old King Koaleamos]

Have faith. Our Eru Ilúvitar will do wonders still, but our road will be hellish, for sure.

Cheers!

I'm probably one of the weird fucks who likes pre-Tolkein fantasy. Gimme more L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt.

 

[Drive-by Farts]

I was reading The History of Middle Earth today and got a horrible bout of existential dread.

We will never have a writer anything like him again. Nobody so dedicated to their craft like that. We're all completely tamed by technology and that ara is dead and will never be brought back. We will only have garbage to consume from now on. It;s so fucking over.

I came to this thread due to a sense of existential dread as well. People have so many distractions these days, but having some space to think and daydream is so important to the creative process.

I’ve been thinking about how bad a lot of prose is these days. One thing that seems to be contributing to the simplification and degradation of the actual language used in English books is the English language’s position at the international language. A lot of the stories on places like Royal Road or Wattpad aren’t written by people whose native language is English. They might have a good grammatical grasp, but there is no richness and depth. That sense of rhythm and artistry isn’t there. But the English market is the biggest, so you have Filipinos and Indians etc trying to nudge into that market even though there is not just a language barrier but cultural ones as well.

And in traditionally published YA, you do see lots of Asian last names. In many cases both parents were immigrants - if you don’t speak English at home, and have bookshelves full of older English literature from the classics to pulp fiction, you’re going to be missing something in your writing. (The low literacy levels in the US are partially due to immigration - a Chinese family might have a decent IQ but if they’re restaurant owners who don’t keep English literature in their homes, their kids will only get what is handed to them by the schools!)

Not to mention, there’s a lack of cultural transmission - things like allusions, rhythm, similes, cultural norms and so forth are difficult for the children of immigrants. It really does take a few generations to integrate.

This creates another interesting situation in which competent writers choose to simplify things just a little, to draw in some of the international audience.

I can’t really tell if this is fixable. Is the English language really going to become some repulsive pidgin because third worlders wanted to market their omegaverse smut on Wattpad and Amazon?

 

[Fcret]

And in traditionally published YA, you do see lots of Asian last names. In many cases both parents were immigrants - if you don’t speak English at home, and have bookshelves full of older English literature from the classics to pulp fiction, you’re going to be missing something in your writing. (The low literacy levels in the US are partially due to immigration - a Chinese family might have a decent IQ but if they’re restaurant owners who don’t keep English literature in their homes, their kids will only get what is handed to them by the schools!)

Anecdotally, I can tell you that the news headlines about plummeting literacy in the US have convinced many of my friends with kids to all do the same thing - put aside time each night to read to their children. I should add this is applies primarily to my white friends (hispanics are also included in this).

My East Asian, SEA, or South Asian acquaintances have reacted very differently - they're going all in on weird programs and tricks to get their children to be able to 'read' by age 5 or so. A few of the very Americanized ones are reading to their kids, but the majority of the "recent immigrant from non-western country"-types are going all in on this weird "teach to the test" idea of literacy.

Fun aside - I worked under a Chinese guy (from China, he was in the PLA and everything back in da day) for a biomed research gig at a university. His wife (also Chinese) was a lawyer. I came around to their house one time for a party they were throwing and got to meet their son who was around 13 at the time. The son was absolutely obsessed with historical fiction and would not stop wanting to talk to me about the Byzantine Empire. I thought this was pretty amusing and chatted with him a bunch but his parents seemed oddly disappointed that their son was so interested in fiction and history and Romans instead of caring about robots or science olympiads or what have you. It's just such a weird situation because your typical white family would be overjoyed that their son is not only actively reading for pleasure but reading about things that are so fundamental to a higher understanding of our civilization and where it comes from.

Anyway, this is all anecdotes. I do think there's probably a deep hunger among the Asian immigrant kids to engage with literature and culture that just isn't being properly cultivated at home.

I’ve been thinking about how bad a lot of prose is these days. One thing that seems to be contributing to the simplification and degradation of the actual language used in English books is the English language’s position at the international language. A lot of the stories on places like Royal Road or Wattpad aren’t written by people whose native language is English. They might have a good grammatical grasp, but there is no richness and depth. That sense of rhythm and artistry isn’t there. But the English market is the biggest, so you have Filipinos and Indians etc trying to nudge into that market even though there is not just a language barrier but cultural ones as well.

There's probably some truth to this but the big sellers in the English literature world are still dominated by native speakers (or at the very least, ESLs who are almost fully acculturated). I think bad prose nowadays is just the same problem as unnecessary subversion in other media - everyone got way too into critical reviews of stuff in the late 00s and 2010s and now whenever they try to write something, they imagine what some snarky British crypto-troon on Youtube is going to say about it. So they're never sincere and they never try to make prose that pops. They just make sterile, clinical sentences because they think being unassuming is the same thing as being brilliant.

 

[Heinrich Maneuver]

Xiran is incapable of not inserting herself into whatever the lastest drama

Seeing her post about the GRRM/HoTD drama and the fuckery around him licensing all his shows to HBO was so eye-roll inducing. it's like having some white dude namedrop as many DJs and artists he knows at a house party. We get it, you know someone.

I want to chip into the 'prose is getting SO bad these days' by pointing out 'Fanfic prose'.

Spoiler: Long: waffling about fanfic prose

You see this with 'this reads like fanfic' criticisms- it doesn't just apply to sloppy plots, characters who aren't really established (because if this was fanfiction you would already know who the characters are) etc, I'm specifically talking about the structure of the writing; purple prose, or overly flowery language, very in-my-feelings and metaphors that sound deep but aren't really meaningful or are sloppy and overdone. It's easier to excuse fanfic being over-written and sloppy because it's fanfic, it's free and its solely (mostly) for fun. An exploration of writing, characters, a scenario, (or porn) but it should be within its own little amatuer space, however it is seeping into publishing.
Something I've noticed more and more as I suffer through hate-reading these YA novels, is the lack of chapters in fanfic and how that affects writers and readers.
Fanfic can be huge chapter books like Manacled/Alchemised but a lot of it is one-shot, straight 2k to 20k, without 'parts' or chapters to break it up. Most people are reading and writing 1-2 scenarios, 'prompts', a single trope such as 'Gasp there was only one bed!' or 'student-teacher' holds up the entire story; and this has bled into contemporary YA lit.
There's no more marinating in a world, no exploring a space, just the basic trope that holds up the raison d'etre for the novel. It isn't just a fast pacing, its a bouncing from point to point, the main bulletpoints of a fanfic without the stuff that makes a novel a novel; B plots, random threads, lore, a history to the world, a lived in feeling. If you wanted to read a fanfic about Dear Sneeder and Chantel enemies to lovers there was only one burger trope, you already know who they are, and by this being fanfic, you, the reader, don't necessarily need all the set up of the world and the reasons there is only one burger- you only came here for the AO3 tag 'there was only one burger'. I think a lot of YA authors come from fanfic and in their heads already believe the audience knows who XYZ characters and world are and why we are here- and the audience is mostly projecting their own characters or themselves onto the character.
If we take Tolkein, or Bronte, who's reasons for writing varied from (very simplistically) a way to process his traumas in WW1 and a way for her to express her feelings about the state of women's roles in society- versus these modern writers who imho have nothing interesting to say or write about, but have the 'enemies to lovers' trope to write about, or Ms Winter who solely wanted to write to become the Next Big Thing. Writers and readers aren't picking up a story to explore something new, but to get what's on the tin.
Some examples of 'this reads like fanfic' are the To Gaze Upon Wicked Gods - the very short, choppy chapters scream 'fanfic' vignettes to me.
Two Sherpas (absolute dogshit imho) and All the Light We Cannot See had this style, so perhaps it's not a fanfic > YA pipeline entirely, but the very short jumpy chapters, repetition, overly emotional metaphors and 'forced' attempts at Deep Writing gave it that amatuer or fanfic feel; a shallow, half baked world with not much to say or chew on. Perhaps it is just a proliferance of amatuer writing and not entirely fanfic. Just food for thought.

 

[Rezza]

his parents seemed oddly disappointed that their son was so interested in fiction and history and Romans instead of caring about robots or science olympiads or what have you.

China nowadays is trying to push this idea that they're going to be the one that pushes the technology (and therefore "humanity") forward, hence the massive push for science. That's why the fictions they like to push nowadays is related to science, hence the massive push for the Three Body Problem and what have you. Since the parent, as you said, was in PLA, it's no surprise they prefer something that is still very close to the party's goal

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

I came to this thread due to a sense of existential dread as well. People have so many distractions these days, but having some space to think and daydream is so important to the creative process.

I’ve been thinking about how bad a lot of prose is these days. One thing that seems to be contributing to the simplification and degradation of the actual language used in English books is the English language’s position at the international language. A lot of the stories on places like Royal Road or Wattpad aren’t written by people whose native language is English. They might have a good grammatical grasp, but there is no richness and depth. That sense of rhythm and artistry isn’t there. But the English market is the biggest, so you have Filipinos and Indians etc trying to nudge into that market even though there is not just a language barrier but cultural ones as well.

And in traditionally published YA, you do see lots of Asian last names. In many cases both parents were immigrants - if you don’t speak English at home, and have bookshelves full of older English literature from the classics to pulp fiction, you’re going to be missing something in your writing. (The low literacy levels in the US are partially due to immigration - a Chinese family might have a decent IQ but if they’re restaurant owners who don’t keep English literature in their homes, their kids will only get what is handed to them by the schools!)

Not to mention, there’s a lack of cultural transmission - things like allusions, rhythm, similes, cultural norms and so forth are difficult for the children of immigrants. It really does take a few generations to integrate.

This creates another interesting situation in which competent writers choose to simplify things just a little, to draw in some of the international audience.

I can’t really tell if this is fixable. Is the English language really going to become some repulsive pidgin because third worlders wanted to market their omegaverse smut on Wattpad and Amazon?

I think it's interesting because a lot of this could be remedied by aiming them towards literature with more complex prose. I always recommend Clark Ashton Smith to high level ESL people.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that the news headlines about plummeting literacy in the US have convinced many of my friends with kids to all do the same thing - put aside time each night to read to their children. I should add this is applies primarily to my white friends (hispanics are also included in this).

My East Asian, SEA, or South Asian acquaintances have reacted very differently - they're going all in on weird programs and tricks to get their children to be able to 'read' by age 5 or so. A few of the very Americanized ones are reading to their kids, but the majority of the "recent immigrant from non-western country"-types are going all in on this weird "teach to the test" idea of literacy.

Fun aside - I worked under a Chinese guy (from China, he was in the PLA and everything back in da day) for a biomed research gig at a university. His wife (also Chinese) was a lawyer. I came around to their house one time for a party they were throwing and got to meet their son who was around 13 at the time. The son was absolutely obsessed with historical fiction and would not stop wanting to talk to me about the Byzantine Empire. I thought this was pretty amusing and chatted with him a bunch but his parents seemed oddly disappointed that their son was so interested in fiction and history and Romans instead of caring about robots or science olympiads or what have you. It's just such a weird situation because your typical white family would be overjoyed that their son is not only actively reading for pleasure but reading about things that are so fundamental to a higher understanding of our civilization and where it comes from.

Anyway, this is all anecdotes. I do think there's probably a deep hunger among the Asian immigrant kids to engage with literature and culture that just isn't being properly cultivated at home.

You're not wrong. I suppose it's why there's an interest in science fiction from them. That being said, immigrant kids either get some kind of support from parents or get pushed to marry up. It's one thing I've noticed. If not those two, then they're just kinda fucked.

There's probably some truth to this but the big sellers in the English literature world are still dominated by native speakers (or at the very least, ESLs who are almost fully acculturated). I think bad prose nowadays is just the same problem as unnecessary subversion in other media - everyone got way too into critical reviews of stuff in the late 00s and 2010s and now whenever they try to write something, they imagine what some snarky British crypto-troon on Youtube is going to say about it. So they're never sincere and they never try to make prose that pops. They just make sterile, clinical sentences because they think being unassuming is the same thing as being brilliant.

Yep, I think there's a phrase running around on social media. Literary Incest, I think it is. The idea that all these social media addicts just consume the same grade of slop for eternity. "Critical reviews", YA fiction, comics, fanfiction, etc.

Then they make fun of chuds on the internet trying to get into proper literature of any kind. "Reading Cormac McCarthy is a red flag" kinda shitflinging.

 

[Garbage of Cesspool]

There's probably some truth to this but the big sellers in the English literature world are still dominated by native speakers (or at the very least, ESLs who are almost fully acculturated). I think bad prose nowadays is just the same problem as unnecessary subversion in other media - everyone got way too into critical reviews of stuff in the late 00s and 2010s and now whenever they try to write something, they imagine what some snarky British crypto-troon on Youtube is going to say about it. So they're never sincere and they never try to make prose that pops. They just make sterile, clinical sentences because they think being unassuming is the same thing as being brilliant.

So an acquaintance of mine is trying to get a novel published. and when we last spoke, she was excitedly telling me about how this supposedly-prolific editor she's paying for advice was telling her, in tldr, "Don't make your language descriptive. Use simple sentences and uber-short chapters. That wordy crap is old-fashioned and nobody likes it anymore."

Make of that what you will.

(Or maybe I'm the weirdo since I think the most "recent" written fiction I've actually enjoyed was from the 1960s)

 

[Mukhrani]

I'm probably one of the weird fucks who likes pre-Tolkein fantasy. Gimme more L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt.

I love Lord Dunsany. I firmly believe that anyone who believes in Clarke's Third Law is constitutionally incapable of understanding or writing fantasy, and will do nothing but pump out science fiction with elves.

Fun aside - I worked under a Chinese guy (from China, he was in the PLA and everything back in da day) for a biomed research gig at a university. His wife (also Chinese) was a lawyer. I came around to their house one time for a party they were throwing and got to meet their son who was around 13 at the time. The son was absolutely obsessed with historical fiction and would not stop wanting to talk to me about the Byzantine Empire. I thought this was pretty amusing and chatted with him a bunch but his parents seemed oddly disappointed that their son was so interested in fiction and history and Romans instead of caring about robots or science olympiads or what have you. It's just such a weird situation because your typical white family would be overjoyed that their son is not only actively reading for pleasure but reading about things that are so fundamental to a higher understanding of our civilization and where it comes from.

This is especially sad because I see China as one of the only cultures with a literary tradition to rival the West. To see a culture for which letters and poetry were so critical turn its back on that sort of thing is just awful.

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

I love Lord Dunsany. I firmly believe that anyone who believe in Clarke's Third Law is constitutionally incapable of understanding or writing fantasy, and will do nothing but pump out science fiction with elves.

I mean, there's utilizing it and then there's going full Soy-Redditor brain.

This is especially sad because I see China as one of the only cultures with a literary tradition to rival the West. To see a culture for which letters and poetry were so critical turn its back on that sort of thing is just awful.

The cultural revolution destroyed much of their own heritage too.

 

[Dead Lion]

I worked under a Chinese guy (from China, he was in the PLA and everything back in da day) for a biomed research gig at a university. His wife (also Chinese) was a lawyer. I came around to their house one time for a party they were throwing and got to meet their son who was around 13 at the time. The son was absolutely obsessed with historical fiction and would not stop wanting to talk to me about the Byzantine Empire. I thought this was pretty amusing and chatted with him a bunch but his parents seemed oddly disappointed that their son was so interested in fiction and history and Romans instead of caring about robots or science olympiads or what have you. It's just such a weird situation because your typical white family would be overjoyed that their son is not only actively reading for pleasure but reading about things that are so fundamental to a higher understanding of our civilization and where it comes from.

They are all like that, you may recall Vivek Ramaswamy’s diatribe last Christmas about how while white kids waste time playing sportsball and watching sitcoms superior Hindu scions practice math and that’s why we need infinity Indians.

They are collectivists, the kid doesn’t get to be an individual and persue history he’s an extension of his family and needs to get into a prestigious career to bring honour to the family name. Such is their culture.

 

[Old King Koaleamos]

They are all like that, you may recall Vivek Ramaswamy’s diatribe last Christmas about how while white kids waste time playing sportsball and watching sitcoms superior Hindu scions practice math and that’s why we need infinity Indians.

They are collectivists, the kid doesn’t get to be an individual and persue history he’s an extension of his family and needs to get into a prestigious career to bring honour to the family name. Such is their culture.

Yeah, I don't think that jeet understands what American Exceptionalism was.

 

[Rezza]

They are all like that, you may recall Vivek Ramaswamy’s diatribe last Christmas about how while white kids waste time playing sportsball and watching sitcoms superior Hindu scions practice math and that’s why we need infinity Indians.

They are collectivists, the kid doesn’t get to be an individual and persue history he’s an extension of his family and needs to get into a prestigious career to bring honour to the family name. Such is their culture.

Also good to note that a lot of Indian immigrants to the west are of the Brahman caste, or the priests caste, hence why they put such a heavy emphasis on science and education (also why they're racist and hateful as fuck, especially to other jeets)

 

[Chandelier]

What? I'm sure the editor for the Hunger Games has edited hundreds of manuscripts at this point. How does that tell us anything about yours?

I once went to a writer's group and we had an editor/publisher come by. She basically said that published writing is all about markets; your manuscript will be sliced down to a third because an editor is only going to keep the parts they think will sell the novel. Authors like Stephen King, once they become famous they can re-introduce old manuscripts and creative control because they've shown they can sell, as you can see with The Stand. IIRC, she said a potential publisher will only read the first few chapters, see if it can turn a profit, and if not, you will be rejected. JKR was rejected from what? 17? Publishers before someone gave Harry Potter a shot, even if it might not have been on JRR Tolkien's level. Editors can be selfish and lazy too; I knew someone who paid for one to edit her novel, and he just took her money to fuck off on a vacation. The premise was around Hungarian steppe people, something a lot of historians would love to read, and this guy totally fumbled it.

Then there are cases when the writer gets too big, like GRRM, and the editor doesn't want to touch their work. A Dance with Dragons has some moments that are not as strong as the prose in the first book.

purple prose, or overly flowery language, very in-my-feelings and metaphors that sound deep but aren't really meaningful or are sloppy and overdone.

My rule is is that if the purple prose is not elaborating on a detail, plot element, environmental element/storytelling, or subtle things like facial tics, then it's just prose to make one seem pretty. Anne Rice had this issue in 'The Queen of the Damned', where she had a flashback scene take place in 200 pages. Other authors have issues with 'thesaurus sucking', where they will pick fancy words to sound better even when that's not what the word means. There's absolutely nothing wrong with consulting one to not sound boring or repetitive - but make sure that the definition fits the action. I read one fanfic that had the word 'effluvium' used to describe the shine in someone's eyes...when the definition is 'noxious fumes'. His eyes were giving off noxious fumes? Was it a basilisk from Dark Souls?

 

[Alteregousername]

My rule is is that if the purple prose is not elaborating on a detail, plot element, environmental element/storytelling, or subtle things like facial tics, then it's just prose to make one seem pretty. Anne Rice had this issue in 'The Queen of the Damned', where she had a flashback scene take place in 200 pages. Other authors have issues with 'thesaurus sucking', where they will pick fancy words to sound better even when that's not what the word means. There's absolutely nothing wrong with consulting one to not sound boring or repetitive - but make sure that the definition fits the action. I read one fanfic that had the word 'effluvium' used to describe the shine in someone's eyes...when the definition is 'noxious fumes'. His eyes were giving off noxious fumes? Was it a basilisk from Dark Souls?

More writers need to take advantage of Mark Twain's evergreen advice: "As to the adjective: when in doubt, strike it out".

 

[Hirbowedge]

China nowadays is trying to push this idea that they're going to be the one that pushes the technology (and therefore "humanity") forward, hence the massive push for science. That's why the fictions they like to push nowadays is related to science, hence the massive push for the Three Body Problem and what have you. Since the parent, as you said, was in PLA, it's no surprise they prefer something that is still very close to the party's goal

As a non-Chinese person, it's hard to judge the Three Body Problem in the Chinese context. When I read it, I was quite surprised by how anti-CCP it seemed. I don't know if this is because I have a distorted lens of the CCP as an outsider, and the book is neutral on them, or endorses them while acknowledging faults. Or it could be that Cixin Liu does actually hate the CCP. It's really hard to say.

The inciting incident of the books is a women being so full of hatred because of the Cultural Revolution, she wants to end the world. I'm not even exaggerating. She literally sends a message to the aliens, saying: "Yo, come kill us all."

There is no overt veneration of political repression; when it comes to liberalism, the books see those values as aspirational. I don't know if the books are anti-CCP, but they definitely aren't political propaganda.

 

[Fcret]

As a non-Chinese person, it's hard to judge the Three Body Problem in the Chinese context. When I read it, I was quite surprised by how anti-CCP it seemed. I don't know if this is because I have a distorted lens of the CCP as an outsider, and the book is neutral on them, or endorses them while acknowledging faults. Or it could be that Cixin Liu does actually hate the CCP. It's really hard to say.

Cixin Liu is a difficult guy to rate. It's obvious he has a lot of problems with the cultural revolution and Mao's style of governance.

From what I can tell, his belief is a much more "normie for his generation" belief that democracy is all well and good, but it's not what China needs right now and the Chinese people aren't ready for it.

It's his beliefs once you put aside the CCP that are a little more worrisome - he seems to have a big hard-on for global government and the surveillance state. He'd make a damn good neocon if he were white.

 

[Chandelier]

Cixin Liu is a difficult guy to rate. It's obvious he has a lot of problems with the cultural revolution and Mao's style of governance.

From what I can tell, his belief is a much more "normie for his generation" belief that democracy is all well and good, but it's not what China needs right now and the Chinese people aren't ready for it.

It's his beliefs once you put aside the CCP that are a little more worrisome - he seems to have a big hard-on for global government and the surveillance state. He'd make a damn good neocon if he were white.

So he's still your basic Chinese, he just didn't like the cultural Revolution. They're all pro big government at heart. They're not called bugmen for no reason.

 

[Rezza]

As a non-Chinese person, it's hard to judge the Three Body Problem in the Chinese context. When I read it, I was quite surprised by how anti-CCP it seemed. I don't know if this is because I have a distorted lens of the CCP as an outsider, and the book is neutral on them, or endorses them while acknowledging faults. Or it could be that Cixin Liu does actually hate the CCP. It's really hard to say.

The inciting incident of the books is a women being so full of hatred because of the Cultural Revolution, she wants to end the world. I'm not even exaggerating. She literally sends a message to the aliens, saying: "Yo, come kill us all."

There is no overt veneration of political repression; when it comes to liberalism, the books see those values as aspirational. I don't know if the books are anti-CCP, but they definitely aren't political propaganda.

iirc, CCP's official stance is that Cultural Revolution was a mistake, but blaming everything on the Gang of Four

Make no mistake however, the book is extremely Chinese in the sense of how zero-sum game it is, something that dictates how the CCP/Beijing works to this day

The Arrival movie is better anyway

 

[Elwood P. Dowd]

I had never heard of this author until I saw this tweet by Orbit books:


I suspect they wouldn't appreciate if I asked about her(I assume this is a "her"?) receding hairline, despite the "anything" claim, but beyond that I was curious if I would find the books as repellent as my instinctual reaction was to the picture.

And after looking it up, yup.

This debut contemporary fantasy features a lovable cast of queer, BIPOC characters, witty writing, and a sapphic slow-burn romance, An Unlikely Coven is perfect for fans of A Discovery of Witches, An Unkindness of Magicians, and The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches.

Doubtless Orbit is well on its way to fiscal solvency publishing such towering works of fiction; certain to sweep their way up the bestseller lists.

 

[Fcret]

I had never heard of this author until I saw this tweet by Orbit books:
View attachment 8053926

I suspect they wouldn't appreciate if I asked about her(I assume this is a "her"?) receding hairline, despite the "anything" claim, but beyond that I was curious if I would find the books as repellent as my instinctual reaction was to the picture.

And after looking it up, yup.


Doubtless Orbit is well on its way to fiscal solvency publishing such towering works of fiction; certain to sweep their way up the bestseller lists.

This genderblob has xir own website. The art is about what you'd expect:

Spoiler: i don't even think gay wine aunts find this sexy