YABookgate

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Next Task said:
As an aside, there has to have started being cases of people writing books but using minorities as their pseudonyms, there just has to. Not people faking minority statuses for themselves, but just straight up a fictional person. Whether specific pen names like Francine Pascal and Ann M. Martin, or just hiding behind a black woman's photo supplied by their publisher, it must be happening, surely.
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Nonsense! That's complete bullshit and you know it.

On an unrelated note, make sure to watch for my friend Pinkqueshia Rosita Cortez-Thalerberg. She's an aspiring author that's going to burst onto the scene in a few years.
 
"Tolkien shouldn't have written LotR because he can't know what it feels to be a hobbit".
 
The #OwnVoices campaign has opened my eyes to how wrong I've been in my writing pursuits. Writing is not about imagination, research or putting yourself in another person's shoes. I can't simply write a novel about WW2 because I've done my research, I need to actually go out there and intern the Japanese myself. Then, once I'm done there, I'm going to really buckle down and kill some prostitutes so I can finally write a murder mystery. Then I'll surgically turn myself into a fifty foot long fire breathing dragon so I can at last create a fantasy epic.
 
Kari Kamiya said:
Although when you think about it... isn't that true? Classic literature almost always feel like self-insert power fantasies, but nobody cares because the supporting characters were able to hold the story up and gave the typically-bland main character something to do, kept them on a leash at times, too. That's the magician's secret, I believe, diverting your attention to something else going on while the self-insert did their thing that would come together in a nice pretty bow at the end. World-building helps, too, having a good idea for a world and you have to put a placeholder character in it so you can play around with it, and it just turns out to be yourself, in a way.
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Can you provide a couple examples of this? I'm curious.

What you're describing is a trap a lot of writers fall into--making your secondary characters more interesting than the main. It could be a self insertion thing for some, that's certainly true. But mostly its a failure to create a multi-layered main. Secondaries can seem more interesting because of the roles they play. Take the "sage" or "mentor" for and example. Who wouldn't find a person interesting who seems to always say the right thing at the right time when the main character needs it? There's an intrigue inherent to that type of character--how did he get so wise? What are his experiences and failures, and so on. Same for the comic relief, plucky side kick, anti-hero antagonist, etc.

As for world building, writers can get caught up in the world they create and the details they have to put in the book that the main character becomes an afterthought. Not even a self insert, but a placeholder, like you said. Which is nice for readers who like that kind of thing, but the story suffers from a lack of balance between character/plot/setting.

Great writers are able to balance all aspects of story into a satisfying read. There's always something to pick apart because no writer is perfect. But the best reads are the ones where one element doesn't overwhelm the other.

Am I off topic? Okay, back on topic--all that seems to matter in YA now is idpol. The sperging I did above is optional.
 
Powder Puff Gorl said:
Can you provide a couple examples of this? I'm curious.
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I like to believe Odysseus is a self-insert for Homer, not sure why but it makes reading it a bit more interesting for me to think it that way. Yeah, he's existed as a concept before Homer started telling stories, but I've been wondering if he inserted at least a little bit of himself into the role of the hero. Odysseus comes off as a blank slate to me despite his actions, makes me think he's actually meant for the reader to insert himself as the legendary character. I'll admit I got this idea from The Simpsons where Homer, while reading The Odyssey to Bart and Lisa, I guess was inserting himself into Odysseus' role (if only for the audience's sake), but it's interesting people can do that with The Odyssey in replacing the characters and not change a thing. Yeah, "The Hero's Journey" is flexible that way, but still, if the character's so legendary, there shouldn't be a reason to put someone else into his place.

Dr. Watson from the Sherlock Holme series might be Arthur Conan Doyle himself following around and recording his hero's cases (Sherlock was based off a teacher of his). He knew he wouldn't be able to solve these crimes with precise deduction, but who wouldn't want to be with their hero figure?

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Jane Austen's works were power fantasies, Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice for instance. But I dunno, classics have been redone and parodied so much that I guess it's kinda "expected" for people to just insert themselves into these characters, but if they're already established characters, then there's really no way you can replace the characters with someone else and have the story/plot play out the exact same way. Like despite Luke Skywalker being the hero archetype, you can't really put anyone else into that role the same way because the hero's journey is unique to him, and so parodies have to play things up a bit to differentiate the real Skywalker from the parody. It's why you can relate to a character, but you can't really become the character. If that makes sense. You also can't really do the same with Frodo and I think also Bilbo Baggins.

"Author avatars" is the most appropriate word to use to describe self-inserts in literature, it just turned into "self-insert" because of the amateur writers not being able to disguise that character. Think author avatars have been mentioned before here or elsewhere, but it's personally always been one of my favorite pastimes to spot the avatar. Gandalf might be seen as Tolkein himself, for instance, if only for his omnipotence, although he's once written that Faramir is the closest to himself he's put in a story.

Though I enjoy it most when the author is actually criticizing themselves by making the character (who's still like themselves in a way) go through miserable shit and have to dig themselves out of their holes if they don't die horribly. Stephen King's known for putting a little bit of himself into his work, "The Shining" being probably his biggest example. Being a faceless/nameless narrator notwithstanding, "Fight Club" might actually be following Chuck Palahniuk himself or an alter ego of his having an alter ego.

So I really don't believe it's at all a bad thing for author avatars to exist as a power fantasy, even a self-insert. It's just bad if it's so plainly obvious it's the author and yet you're still expected or even insisted to like them.
 
Kari Kamiya said:
So I really don't believe it's at all a bad thing for author avatars to exist as a power fantasy, even a self-insert. It's just bad if it's so plainly obvious it's the author and yet you're still expected or even insisted to like them.
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Man, you're literally readed my mind months ago. That's why i wanna remake the novel i'm working now (along with big thoughts i wanna share someday).
 
Kari Kamiya said:
I like to believe Odysseus is a self-insert for Homer, not sure why but it makes reading it a bit more interesting for me to think it that way. Yeah, he's existed as a concept before Homer started telling stories, but I've been wondering if he inserted at least a little bit of himself into the role of the hero. Odysseus comes off as a blank slate to me despite his actions, makes me think he's actually meant for the reader to insert himself as the legendary character. I'll admit I got this idea from The Simpsons where Homer, while reading The Odyssey to Bart and Lisa, I guess was inserting himself into Odysseus' role (if only for the audience's sake), but it's interesting people can do that with The Odyssey in replacing the characters and not change a thing. Yeah, "The Hero's Journey" is flexible that way, but still, if the character's so legendary, there shouldn't be a reason to put someone else into his place.

Dr. Watson from the Sherlock Holme series might be Arthur Conan Doyle himself following around and recording his hero's cases (Sherlock was based off a teacher of his). He knew he wouldn't be able to solve these crimes with precise deduction, but who wouldn't want to be with their hero figure?

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Jane Austen's works were power fantasies, Sense and Sensibility and Pride and Prejudice for instance. But I dunno, classics have been redone and parodied so much that I guess it's kinda "expected" for people to just insert themselves into these characters, but if they're already established characters, then there's really no way you can replace the characters with someone else and have the story/plot play out the exact same way. Like despite Luke Skywalker being the hero archetype, you can't really put anyone else into that role the same way because the hero's journey is unique to him, and so parodies have to play things up a bit to differentiate the real Skywalker from the parody. It's why you can relate to a character, but you can't really become the character. If that makes sense. You also can't really do the same with Frodo and I think also Bilbo Baggins.

"Author avatars" is the most appropriate word to use to describe self-inserts in literature, it just turned into "self-insert" because of the amateur writers not being able to disguise that character. Think author avatars have been mentioned before here or elsewhere, but it's personally always been one of my favorite pastimes to spot the avatar. Gandalf might be seen as Tolkein himself, for instance, if only for his omnipotence, although he's once written that Faramir is the closest to himself he's put in a story.

Though I enjoy it most when the author is actually criticizing themselves by making the character (who's still like themselves in a way) go through miserable shit and have to dig themselves out of their holes if they don't die horribly. Stephen King's known for putting a little bit of himself into his work, "The Shining" being probably his biggest example. Being a faceless/nameless narrator notwithstanding, "Fight Club" might actually be following Chuck Palahniuk himself or an alter ego of his having an alter ego.

So I really don't believe it's at all a bad thing for author avatars to exist as a power fantasy, even a self-insert. It's just bad if it's so plainly obvious it's the author and yet you're still expected or even insisted to like them.
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The only thing that matters is whether or not a character is interesting. Fiction is full of awesome cooldude characters that fuck the hot girl in the end, but Sharpe and Longmire are well written and interesting while the average fanfic oc just flat out isn't.

All the labels we use to citicize bad characters shouldn't be turned around on good ones.
 
HumanHive said:
The only thing that matters is whether or not a character is interesting. Fiction is full of awesome cooldude characters that fuck the hot girl in the end, but Sharpe and Longmire are well written and interesting while the average fanfic oc just flat out isn't.

All the labels we use to citicize bad characters shouldn't be turned around on good ones.
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Just so. Sharpe can come across as a Mary Sue because he's a damned good soldier who rose from the ranks and saved Wellington's life and fought in every major battle of the Napoleonic Wars and got laid a lot, but he has a lot of flaws and downsides too. He has no problem committing theft or murder to get what he wants, he often has no idea how to comport himself in social situations, he tends to be a stubborn, prideful dick, and he's a fool for a pretty face, which traits bite him in the butt as often as they help him. That means he feels more like an actual person, not some kind of literary wish-fulfillment.

Likewise, Longmire works because he isn't some kind of cowboy supercop; he's just an average middle-aged guy doing his job as best he can while recovering from his wife's death, and he occasionally winds up getting in over his head and needs his friends to help him out. That is, he's more like John McClane in the first Die Hard, not the Superman version of John McClane in Live Free or Die Hard.
 
Dindu Nuffin: A Novel
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I do hope that this turns out to be a book about false allegations, and not one where it tries to portray a teen actually killing a cop as okay. Gonna have to wait and see about this one.
 
Other than wine aunts and fat dykes who can't read a nutritional guide on the side of their storebrand cupcakes, let alone an actually good story, does anyone buy these shitty YA novels?
Second Missing Primarch said:
Just so. Sharpe can come across as a Mary Sue because he's a damned good soldier who rose from the ranks and saved Wellington's life and fought in every major battle of the Napoleonic Wars and got laid a lot, but he has a lot of flaws and downsides too. He has no problem committing theft or murder to get what he wants, he often has no idea how to comport himself in social situations, he tends to be a stubborn, prideful dick, and he's a fool for a pretty face, which traits bite him in the butt as often as they help him. That means he feels more like an actual person, not some kind of literary wish-fulfillment.
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Also don't forget that most of the battles are tangentially related to him, and he gets dragged into them by either chance, or because the British Army contingent in the Peninsula was a comparatively small group when you measure them against the Portuguese, Spanish, and French Armies, even before the Guerillos and local citizenry mixed in, which makes his appearances at the big battles the Brits fought in more acceptable.
 
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RA-5C Vigilante said:
Other than wine aunts and fat dykes who can't read a nutritional guide on the side of their storebrand cupcakes, let alone an actually good story, does anyone buy these shitty YA novels?
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I used to think this, but any time you stumble across some ridiculous novel check out its GoodReads page. These books often have thousands of reviews. The first book in the Dear Martin series referenced above, as an example. 33K ratings and 6K reviews. Somebody is rating (edit: oops) reading it. Or at least saying they are on GoodReads.

dear-martin.PNG
 
Elwood P. Dowd said:
I used to think this, but any time you stumble across some ridiculous novel check out its GoodReads page. These books often have thousands of reviews. The first book in the Dear Martin series referenced above, as an example. 33K ratings and 6K reviews. Somebody is rating it. Or at least saying they are on GoodReads.

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But every time I go (or did go) to the average bookstore, I saw no one picking up this shit. I wonder if its a large community,but they are the only ones interested in it.
 
Azovka said:
To call back to a book that was mentioned in the first pages of this thread, it got a more detailed summary as well as a bunch of glowing "early" reviews.
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Smashing the white patriarchy, one Disney princess at a time.
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How can Nigerella have descended from Cinderella and her step sisters, when they were only related by marriage?
 
RA-5C Vigilante said:
Other than wine aunts and fat dykes who can't read a nutritional guide on the side of their storebrand cupcakes, let alone an actually good story, does anyone buy these shitty YA novels?
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A child I know has actually been assigned a couple of these train wrecks; Alex Gino’s George and that Watch Us Rise book we were mocking earlier, to be specific. So, at least one school is requiring this junk now.

That kid didn’t seem to like them. Part of the George book is about putting on a play based on Charlotte’s Web and the kid wished they read that instead.

Editing to include links to those books:
 
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Puddleduck said:
How can Nigerella have descended from Cinderella and her step sisters, when they were only related by marriage?
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Depending on the generation it wouldn't be too hard. Great grandchild of Cinder, great grandchild/nephew of Stepsister. Meh. Given the actual inbreeding of real life nobility it's not exactly outside of reality.
 
Elwood P. Dowd said:
I used to think this, but any time you stumble across some ridiculous novel check out its GoodReads page. These books often have thousands of reviews. The first book in the Dear Martin series referenced above, as an example. 33K ratings and 6K reviews. Somebody is rating (edit: oops) reading it. Or at least saying they are on GoodReads.

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There's an entire category of "Urban Fiction" which, frankly I'm fascinated by. The Woke SJW set seems to ignore the fact that there is plenty of literature aimed at Black Youth, and it speaks to their experiences and concerns. I'd best describe it as Sweet Valley High - but for black teen kids and young women.

I feel like Dear Jystyce could be an interesting book if it's left to the reader to decide if he did it or not bringing into question the brutality of the criminal justice system. But I doubt anything that nuanced exists.
 
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