# There is a Dark Age coming



## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

I don’t mean this to be a doomer thread. Instead I wish to inspire an attitude of vitality in the face of a world falling apart, because I have faith in that the coming age will only be as dark as you’ll be prepared for it.

​First, I must lay out why I believe we are heading for a dark age.

From what I’ve seen, there are *three major theories *predicting a future of collapse. I rank them in an order of sooner predictions to more long spanning prognoses.

Firstly, *Modern Monetary Theory* is likely to lead to global hyperinflation under current global economic pressures within this decade.





Secondly, under MIT’s 1972 *“Limits to growth”* model we are most close to the Buisness-as-usual-2 scenario in which world’s industrial output starts to go down gradually around 2040.






Finally, I think *John Michael Greer’s* theory of *Catabolic collapse* is very compelling and our current global civilization is in no way immune to this diagnosis.





In a more general sense the problem is that our modern global society has formed itself on the dependency that there always is room to expand by investing in the future and getting consistent material returns for almost a century.

What ever limits to growth were foreseen were always written off as problems that science would figure out. Biggest example being that once we go interplanetary and then interstellar we would essentially enter a post-scarcity paradigm. Well, we are closing in on 2023 and are not that much closer to an interplanetary civilization than in 1972. Instead we’re getting less and less return on resource extraction and those resources that have formed the backbone of our civilization are being regulated for environmental preservation.

We will probably never literally run out of oil, lithium and other important resources, we are just getting less return on investment to get them. A resource we are more literally running out of is the human resource due to a global demographic collapse and aging populations.

We might possibly never surpass the material abundance that the world has enjoyed for the last few decades.



*However, here is my whitepill...*​
While the coming economic crashes are gonna be a major blow, in all likelihood it will not turn our civilization into Mad Max within 2020s.
I believe the actual decline will last many decades until we stabilize at bizarro 1920s where the world is polluted with ancient plastics and material reclamation is one of the biggest industries.

It won’t have to be as bad as the 19th century. We will still inherit a lot of objectively useful knowledge. Everyone right now has the opportunity to supply themselves with a library of information that was not available to anyone before information era.

Besides we are much more built for an older way of life than how we are living now. That is why resource gathering, framing and crafting games are so addictive. Yes, real life is much harder than Minecraft, but difficulty in real life is really dependent on skills and how much you know what you are doing. Right now we have plenty of time and resources to learn how to thrive better than those who lived in the old days and those who right now are just sitting on their assess.

I’m cautiously suggesting to get into “Prepping” for a lack of a better word. More specifically greatly suggest getting into DIY hobbies like growing and carpentry to start building a mental map on what it takes to locally source your food and comforts.
Yes, _learn to grow._
In fact, believing that your hobby bestows you with important future skills makes it that much more fulfilling.

More importantly people should get over the fantasy of being the lone wolf. What I believe is more realistic and valuable is getting over one’s autism and putting a foot in the door in building relationships with anyone who is part of smaller self sufficient communities.

People will suffer relatively to how dependent on modern complex supply chain comforts they allow themselves to become. City slickers will suffer the most. But again, the collapse will be slow and gradual, so those who “collapse” voluntarily won’t suffer like those who will be forced to give up their modern way of life involuntarily and unprepaired.

It’s not like the modern life is that fucking great. Most people have to wage paycheck to paycheck. Whatever is left over most often get spent on entertainment technologies that are only about indulging in escapist illusions of not living in our “modern day utopia”.

I believe the welfare of your next generations and your twilight years will benefit on how early you make the time and energy investment into preparing for an older life.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

*An existential consideration.*​I think for many modern people the hardest existential pill to swallow will be the fact that it probably was never meant for us to reach the stars and the only peak of technology has always been the gimmick of very, very intricate silicone devices that could automate some rudimentary logic processes very, very well.

In a way StarTrek’s vision of the future was a utopian myth made by nerds to justify letting them dictate the direction of humanity.

I don’t think the death of that myth should be mourned. Over the decades I’ve come to see that Ted Kaczynski was right. Following this path will only demand more and more sacrifice of individuality in order to sterilize humanity into being a “right-think” cog in an ever expansive technological machine.

Space-jumpsuit-communism was always pretty gay anyway.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

Additionally, *Peter Zeihan* also deserves a look.

He mostly focuses on the global demographic collapse and predicts that it will cause a folding back of the modern global economic system.




He is optimistic about the US weathering this global event, because it would somewhat default US to it’s original early post WWII power position.

However, I think he underestimates how much the US was already reaching it’s growth limits in the 70’s which forced it to move to a more globally expansive debt based economy and how much that is now part of US’s economic ecosystem.

Also, he believes that demographic problems can be remedied by the growth and influx of the Latin American population, which I’m sure plenty of you would object as a viable solution.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

*Great Reset*​The “Great Reset” that has been pushed by WEF should not be viewed as elites turning contemporary normal way of life into _Techno-Euro-Communism_ just because they got more greedy than they had before.

I believe they are more or less seeing what I am trying to relay. However, since there is no historic precedent of a societal downtrend of this scale, they have no concrete models to predict the future with. So, to secure their grip on power they are doubling down on control.

The reason they are pushing the global warming narrative (whether it's true or not) is because admitting any other factor for the coming economic woes will only serve as an argument for less centralization and more for self sufficiency, which goes directly against their strategy.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

“*What about Nuclear?”* some may ask.​While I believe it can do a lot to keep the growth-train going, it is nowhere near the magic power source that cheap oil was before it became an environmental issue. Uranium might be astronomically more energy dense than oil with virtually no carbon emissions, however for nuclear energy to reach a somewhat similar integration it also needs batteries.

I strongly doubt that lithium can ever be extracted efficiently enough cover the same demand that fossil fuels do.

“*What about Automation and AI?”* some may ask.​While automation does fill out a lot of human positions, it also greatly increases the need for human maintenance of those machines. The problem with those new work positions is that they will require an ever higher qualification and intelligence. The main problem with the demographic collapse is that we are most intensely losing the high IQ experienced autistic people, not the dumb ones.


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## Gender: Xenomorph (Nov 19, 2022)

Thing is, the world as is now, everything is very bloated and artificially inflated following an economic boom.

A lot of people profiteered and made off with a lot of money thanks to that, and they invested it in phony businesses etc. It was never sustainable and it was due to collapse any time. Could have been a decade, a century or two, but everything was on borrowed time, people knew it and it didn't matter for generations.

A crash and burn is overdue, and the world desperately needs it. When it will come crashing down, all the bloat and unnecessities will disappear or struggle to maintain. I hope the world won't need to fall all the way where humans will be to dumb to understand, maintain and replicate the current technology we have today.

A lot will be lost and burn thanks to this crash, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Just watch the world burn.


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## Wormy (Nov 19, 2022)

I'll be dead in one way or another by the time it hits, so I couldn't give a shit. Enjoy your world, Farmers, you'll rule it for better or worse.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

Gender: Xenomorph said:


> Thing is, the world as is now, everything is very bloated and artificially inflated following an economic boom.
> 
> A lot of people profiteered and made off with a lot of money thanks to that, and they invested it in phony businesses etc. It was never sustainable and it was due to collapse any time. Could have been a decade, a century or two, but everything was on borrowed time, people knew it and it didn't matter for generations.
> 
> ...


In parts I'm even more pessimistic than you.

*On the pessimistic side*, I don't think it will mater that much if we will be able to "understand, maintain and replicate the current technology we have today".
It's mostly a resource and energy problem. As humanity extracts resources it picks the "lowest hanging fruits" first, then future resources become more and more expensive to extract. We can only keep doing that by utilizing energy/wealth from the previously extracted resources.
It is only maintainable as the momentum allows it. Once that momentum gets severed it could become impossible to ever make the same resources profitable again.

However, *I'm optimistic* in that every state of societal development has it's opportunities (demand and a way to supply it), but one of the most valuable variables is how well one predicts the future. So if a collapse is certain, than that narrows quite well what you should be investing your time and energy in.


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## Underperforming (Nov 19, 2022)

Why is it that so many people are convinced by half baked Neo-Malthusian sophistry?


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

Underperforming said:


> Why is it that so many people are convinced by half baked Neo-Malthusian sophistry?


Probably because there is no new green revolution saving us this time?


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## Underperforming (Nov 19, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Probably because there is no new green revolution saving us this time?


and how do you know that other than someone said that it would not without evidence?


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## Uberpenguin (Nov 19, 2022)

For sure.

I've sort of had the same ideas, although I generally do so based more on the simple fact that technology and progress is a sum of human cooperation, the amount that has to work together to create and support new technologies grows exponentially and not linearly.

For example people usually recognize that they don't understand how the microchips in their computer works, but what they _don't_ recognize is that even the plastics in the shell that houses it, the metallic screws used to hold it together, or the circuit boards the chips are placed on, are the sum of tremendous research and knowledge with their own respective fields of study that people can spend an entire lifetime mastering.

So basically once the foundation of the system starts to come unglued, it isn't going to be like "Oh no my smart home system doesn't work anymore" it's going to be "I'm completely surrounded by things that involve alien materials and principles that to me may as well be magic".
People have become incredibly specialized in service of working as a collective. If that cohesion fails even somewhat it's going to present serious consequences to how the world functions.

Of course plenty of people could probably handle a bit more of a hands-on lifestyle and be happier for it, the system hasn't been established for long enough for all the competent people to be bred out.
The scarier bit is that dark ages and war usually go hand in hand. Doesn't matter how smart or strong you are, it won't protect you from bullets.



Wormy said:


> I'll be dead in one way or another by the time it hits, so I couldn't give a shit. Enjoy your world, Farmers, you'll rule it for better or worse.


I'm going to hunt you down and plug you into the matrix so you never die, wormy.


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## wtfNeedSignUp (Nov 19, 2022)

We're going to have full on dark age of technology a la' 40k. Eventually we'll write out the methods in which we create new shit, at best case we might still have the ability to manufacture things blind, but those will also get destroyed and we're stuck using the things that survived...

Except unlike 40k nothing we currently manufacture can survive more than half a decade, unless it's military gear.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

wtfNeedSignUp said:


> We're going to have full on dark age of technology a la' 40k. Eventually we'll write out the methods in which we create new shit, at best case we might still have the ability to manufacture things blind, but those will also get destroyed and we're stuck using the things that survived...
> 
> Except unlike 40k nothing we currently manufacture can survive more than half a decade, unless it's military gear.


Time to stock up on ThinkPad's and Nokia phones


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## Coolio55 (Nov 19, 2022)

As long as microprocessors of reasonable power, tube TVs and transferrable flash media still exist: Everything will be OK.


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## Save the Loli (Nov 19, 2022)

Any "resource crisis" that exists is completely artificial, manufactured by economic situations (because why invest capital developing a new resource when the market prohibits it?), political situations (can't mine lithium in Afghanistan when you won't pay the Taliban's protection money), and environmentalism (can't mine the fairly easy to access ores on the continental shelf). And that doesn't even consider recycling which gets more efficient at bigger scales with more energy investment.

The real challenge is that the people leading the world today are incompetent and incapable of dealing with the solutions. There actually is a global crisis in the form of the overcomplicated supply chains and the unsustainable economies. Our elite see this as a benefit so they can solidify their control over the world, which keeps them from being upended by new technologies like AI or the internet which may have forced them to relinquish their grip (for better or worse, for all we know the internet could have led to Turbo-Hitler who would've used bioweapons to kill 99.999% of everyone alive while almost everyone else becomes immortal Turbo-Hitler's slave for eternity, the Rothschilds and WEF sound pretty good compared to that). I don't trust the elite to use the solutions scientists have already discovered and written about simply because they have their own agenda and have decided to invest untold billions in unprofitable NGOs, global regime change, and promoting militarism around the world, let alone their own internal rot with diversity hiring and the useless managerial class.

Hopefully the next set of elite pick up the slack from where they left off.


CheapMeds said:


> *Great Reset*​The “Great Reset” that has been pushed by WEF should not be viewed as elites turning contemporary normal way of life into _Techno-Euro-Communism_ just because they got more greedy than they had before.
> 
> I believe they are more or less seeing what I am trying to relay. However, since there is no historic precedent of a societal downtrend of this scale, they have no concrete models to predict the future with. So, to secure their grip on power they are doubling down on control.


Like I said, they understand that today's technology, let alone tomorrow's tech, would be very dangerous in the hands of plebs since it could cause untold disasters. The internet (and to a degree cell phones) was the big initial test, since the internet was disrupting their propaganda and control networks globally and was a potent tool for regime change. Same thing now with cryptocurrency. They need absolute control because they are arrogant bastards who genuinely believe they are doing this for our sake along with more importantly, preserving their own position. The current system is 200 years old and built on Anglo-American domination of the world after the defeat of the Habsburgs, Bourbons, and Napoleon during the 1600-1815 era. They want to preserve this system, that's why it was necessary to defeat the Kaiser, Hitler, Japanese, and Soviets who wanted to either destroy the system entirely or head it themselves.


CheapMeds said:


> The reason they are pushing the global warming narrative is because admitting any other factor for the coming economic woes will only serve as an argument for less centralization and more self sufficiency, which goes directly against their strategy.


Climate change is plenty real, and it doesn't matter if it's caused by humans or not (and it probably is), the reason the elite push it so hard is because it gives them an excuse to enact the Great Reset. If you actually check the numbers, it makes _zero sense_ to fight climate change by making the plebs pay more to eat a steak or drive a gas-powered car when these people have absolutely huge carbon footprints and promote globalist supply chains involving shipping components of things all over the world on filthy, polluting diesel ships/trains. But if you get everyone scared about climate change being some existential threat (it's really not), then you can make people demand to eat bugs and force everyone to take public transit..


CheapMeds said:


> “*What about Nuclear?”* some may ask.​While I believe it can do a lot to keep the growth-train going, it is nowhere near the magic power source that cheap oil was before it became an environmental issue. Uranium might be astronomically more energy dense than oil with virtually no carbon emissions, however for nuclear energy to reach a somewhat similar integration it also needs batteries.


What do you mean batteries? Because you can't ramp it up and down based on demand? As long as you have enough electricity, you can create artificial hydrocarbons for excess or probably better, store the power like they are starting to do with renewable energy using dams, flywheels, battery storage, etc. And yes, nuclear energy is capital-intensive, but it gives good returns over the course of decades. The amount of money the US has spent on the Ukraine War could have built several brand new nuclear power plants even with the insanely overbudget price tag attached to the one currently built in Georgia (which as economics, including those of nuclear power plants, shows, goes down thanks to economies of scale if you're building several at once).


CheapMeds said:


> I strongly doubt that lithium can ever be extracted efficiently enough cover the same demand that fossil fuels do.


This is like someone in 1800 dooming that we'll be fucked once the wood runs out because coal isn't efficient enough. There's no evidence lithium can't be more efficiently extracted if market conditions demanded it. Which they are _right now_ meaning we'll logically see better lithium extraction.


CheapMeds said:


> “*What about Automation and AI?”* some may ask.​While automation does fill out a lot of human positions, it also greatly increases the need for human maintenance of those machines. The problem with those new work positions is that they will require an ever higher qualification and intelligence. The main problem with the demographic collapse is that we are most intensely losing the high IQ experienced autistic people, not the dumb ones.


Maintaining the Burger Flipper 3000 at the local McDonalds isn't a high-skill job, it's a job literally anyone could be retrained for if they can be assed to learn a trade.


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## tehpope (Nov 19, 2022)

I've been preparing. I'm working on a portable library shit. I'll make a topic about it in the Tech forums.

If its not the elites and the results of their meddling bringing us to a dark age, it might be the sun.




I think a lot of what this guy thinks is a bit bonkers, but it is fact we're overdue for a solar flare to hit us. We had a close call in 2012-13 that missed us due to the sun being in the wrong direction.
















						Solar storm smashes hole in Earth's magnetosphere, triggering extremely rare pink auroras
					

On Nov. 3, a solar storm caused a temporary crack in Earth's magnetic field. The resulting hole enabled energetic particles to penetrate deep into the planet's atmosphere and set off extremely rare pink auroras.




					www.livescience.com
				








a way better video.


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## Wormy (Nov 19, 2022)

Uberpenguin said:


> I'm going to hunt you down and plug you into the matrix so you never die, wormy.


You assume there'll be enough left of me to plug into...


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

Underperforming said:


> and how do you know that other than someone said that it would not without evidence?


In all seriousness, lack of food isn't really part of the systemic problem.
It is a problem now that one of the biggest synthetic fertilizer providers have been signed out of the global system thanks to the Ukraine conflict.
Western world has been dropping numbers into a demographic collapse even with obesity being a bigger problem than starvation.
When I talk about resource limits, I'm more concerned about countless other resources that run our world.

In the end we are both at a position of faith if there is another way out or if there are people smart enough to find it.

I'm just betting that we can't have infinite growth in a finite world.
More specifically I'm making the bet that we are reaching those limits sooner than later.


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## beet644 (Nov 19, 2022)

Let me make a point using my house. My home was built in 1901 when the ottoman empire was a thing.  It out lasted the USSR, and Yugoslavia. Not saying I live in some magic house. My point is shows how delicate nations are and that  being a small nobody you will survive by just slipping throw the cracks. Things will prob get bad but maybe not for you.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

tehpope said:


> I've been preparing. I'm working on a portable library shit. I'll make a topic about it in the Tech forums.
> 
> If its not the elites and the results of their meddling bringing us to a dark age, it might be the sun.
> 
> ...


Daiym, I hope my UPS can handle a solar wind.

I'm too considering on buying an exterior and interior 10TB HDDs for my own personal library
but actual how to books might be the real investment.


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## tehpope (Nov 19, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> I'm too considering on buying an exterior and interior 10TB HDDs for my own personal library
> but actual how to books might be the real investment.


Physical books def are a good investment. Vinyl records too since you'd just need a stylus and something to amplify the sound. Though buying / building a faraday cage would, in theory, protect electronics, metals, and other items from the effects of a solar storm.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

tehpope said:


> Physical books def are a good investment. Vinyl records too since you'd just need a stylus and something to amplify the sound. Though buying / building a faraday cage would, in theory, protect electronics, metals, and other items from the effects of a solar storm.


I sure wish they made more audiobooks on Vinyl.


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## PipTheAlchemist (Nov 19, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> I sure wish they made more audiobooks on Vinyl.


They make audiobooks on Vinyl in the first place?


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## Honka Honka Burning Love (Nov 19, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> I sure wish they made more audiobooks on Vinyl.


I could buy wheel of time again...and USE IT AS A FUCKING HOUSE


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## CheapMeds (Nov 19, 2022)

PipTheAlchemist said:


> They make audiobooks on Vinyl in the first place?


Almost none https://thevinylfactory.com/news/vinyl-audiobook-series-harper-collins/


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## blur (Nov 19, 2022)

tehpope said:


> Physical books def are a good investment. Vinyl records too since you'd just need a stylus and something to amplify the sound. Though buying / building a faraday cage would, in theory, protect electronics, metals, and other items from the effects of a solar storm.


But would it protect your power source?


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## PipTheAlchemist (Nov 19, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Almost none https://thevinylfactory.com/news/vinyl-audiobook-series-harper-collins/


They're not even out yet, lmao


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## ZeCommissar (Nov 19, 2022)

I do admire your hope OP, and I don't necessarily disagree on any of your points but I just can't shake the pessimistic feeling that what will happen is that once SHTF is that terriblefeeling that the elites won't lose their power. They will either crack down, or just be replaced with someone else. Human beings can be very selfish fearful people, and for every modern person that knows how to grow their own food, create their own tools, be self sufficient, and perhaps most importantly have a close knit community to help you with those things you also have thousands that don't.

What does this mean? Well we already know. People will look towards leaders that can promise them safety and security even at the cost of their own freedom. Either we have the current elites with even more control over our lives, or new faces that are just as power hungry and sociopathic as what we have now. There's a very good chance they won't be the type of leaders you want either.

So many people, myself included just would die or have very shitty lives if we were thrown into pre-industrial society. I'm at least starting to prepare for the future, but so so many are ignorant of what may come to pass, and by the time they realize what's happening it's too late.

This is especially true for my generation and younger millennials. If you talk to a lot of people in my age range (20-25) you will notice a lot don't have many qualms with authoritarianism against their enemies. I could go on about this but you get my point already I think.

I may be misreading what you are meaning OP. Are you saying the collapse of modern industrial society is inevitable and we must look to the past to survive it? How would this happen without complete* total *collapse of our modern world in first world nations? I don't want to even begin to imagine the hell-scape fragile food importing nations will become.


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## Lowlife Adventures (Nov 19, 2022)

Underperforming said:


> and how do you know that other than someone said that it would not without evidence?


How do we know that there _is_ going to be one? Maybe there will be, maybe there won't, nobody actually knows.

Even if resource limits aren't currently an issue, it still eventually will be for as long as scarcity is a thing. In fact, isn't it better to anticipate resource issues_ before_ it's too late?

I get why people like to shit on Malthusians, but it seems like there's a knee-jerk reaction to be dismissive of anyone who even suggests that we might have a resource problem on our hands.


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## ToroidalBoat (Nov 19, 2022)

Ever hear of the Olduvai Theory?

Olduvai Theory: Sliding Towards a Post-Industrial Stone Age, by Richard Duncan

(more recent version from this year)


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## Crysocyan (Nov 19, 2022)

We will live in a high-trust Agrarian Christian society. And we will drink beer everyday and eat many apples.


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## Ted_Breakfast (Nov 19, 2022)

I can barely survive a charley horse, take away my air conditioning and beefaroni and I'm beyond dead.


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## murph (Nov 19, 2022)

Unless there is a nuclear war, you'll be fine.

My grandparents genuinely thought, and were told repeatedly by the powers that be, that there would be an atomic war within their lifetimes. They had good reason to believe that. They were grown during WWII, they hosted soldiers in their home when those soldiers were on the way to train for an actual world war.

They built a bomb shelter because they wanted to protect their kids from inevitable radiation disease. Filled it with canned goods and bunk beds.

The world went on, mutually assured destruction was what it is, the canned goods spoiled, the bomb shelter filled with water, algae, snakes, and mosquitoes, and my grandparents and most of their children died natural deaths.

I'm optimistic.


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## Big Al's Famous Pork (Nov 19, 2022)

Our species has always muddled along. The horrors many people have faced in the last two centuries will never be something you will endure. 
Stop being a pussy.


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## AlmightyMagichan (Nov 20, 2022)

I'm not convinced that society is going to collapse anytime soon. Mainly because I believe in the power of people being too lazy. 

We don't even have to get down to things like electricity or running water. If people starting losing cell phone and internet services they would freak the hell out. Someone responsible for that happening would become public enemy #1 and quickly hunted down. I can see people working hard to restore those things if they were lost, but once that's done then it's back to lying on the couch on the phone all day. The only way I can see a new Dark Age happening is if something major manages to destroy everything. That would have to be nuclear level, in which case there might not be anyone left afterwards. Rome did eventually fall to Germanic tribes back in the day, but could something like that happen now? Not sure, I'd imagine the invaders would want that sweet luxery technology we all enjoy.


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## Save the Loli (Nov 20, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> Ever hear of the Olduvai Theory?
> 
> Olduvai Theory: Sliding Towards a Post-Industrial Stone Age, by Richard Duncan
> 
> (more recent version from this year)


It's neo-Malthusian nonsense with little relation to reality despite how often it gets quoted. In reality, there is practically nothing stopping industrial civilization from rebuilding itself after a collapse. This guy's theory is just weird because he's attributing peak energy use as something significant when in reality peak energy has gone down because society is more energy efficient (it's not a surprise his peak is the 1970s i.e. the oil embargo years) as well as the aging/great replacement of Western populations (who consume more energy per capita, at least before they hit the retirement home).

Even after a total collapse where like say everyone besides the 500 people in the Sentinelese tribe die because the Wuhan lab released an actual doomsday plague and not Peter Daszak's brand new virus, given a few hundred thousand years they'd still find a way to rebuild industrial civilization, they just wouldn't do it with coal. Solar energy for instance dates to the 1880s, but no one used it because why the fuck would you use the shittiest most primitive solar cell imaginable when you could burn some oil or coal? But if you didn't have much oil or coal, you'd come up with some solution like solar thermal power or using solar energy to pump water for storage and use that water. And then you'd discover nuclear fission and ditch that shit.


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## Frostnipped Todger (Nov 20, 2022)

Regardless of whether shit goes down or not, I'd recommend moving to a small town/getting some land, learning the basics of growing your own food/raising or hunting animals, and general self-reliance. 
Worst case, you have a better, healthier lifestyle. Best case, you might make it through any collapse. 



Spoiler: Aside 



I heard on the radio last week that the average house in Melbourne is closing in on $2m. These are houses on tiny blocks of land. I live 2.5 hours drive away, and paid $550k for a 4 bedroom house with enough land to raise some chickens, grow enough vegetables to at least provide 3/4 of our diet. The benefits of the city are minimal, and the downsides are massive if things go sideways.


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## ditto (Nov 20, 2022)

the preacher man says it's the end of time...he says that america's rivers are going dry. the interest is up, the stock market's down. you guys have to be careful walking around here this late at night...this...this is the perfect place to get jumped.


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## ToroidalBoat (Nov 20, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> neo-Malthusian


???



> they'd still find a way to rebuild industrial civilization


If that happened, hopefully it wouldn't be the overall circus it is this time around, what with wokeism and excess consumerism.

And is it possible to rebuild industrialization without fossil fuels? Like doesn't solar or nuclear need complex manufacturing?


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## Save the Loli (Nov 20, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> If that happened, hopefully it wouldn't be the overall circus it is this time around, what with wokeism and excess consumerism.


I honestly think we're doomed to some sort of collapse, like Bronze Age Collapse round 2, but I've always hoped the next society that rises will learn from the endless litany of mistakes made.


ToroidalBoat said:


> And is it possible to rebuild industrialization without fossil fuels? Like doesn't solar or nuclear need complex manufacturing?


Early industrialization was done entirely by wood, water, and wind. Coal was only valuable because it could be used wherever and in England/Continental Europe, wood was rare and had to be imported from the Americas, Scandinavia, or Russia.

Real life isn't a Civilization tech tree since there's not really any obstacles stopping you from getting the right machining tools to make the basic equipment for solar thermal power. At its simplest, its the Archimedes mirror plus a Stirling engine.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 20, 2022)

ZeCommissar said:


> I do admire your hope OP, and I don't necessarily disagree on any of your points but I just can't shake the pessimistic feeling that what will happen is that once SHTF is that terriblefeeling that the elites won't lose their power. They will either crack down, or just be replaced with someone else. Human beings can be very selfish fearful people, and for every modern person that knows how to grow their own food, create their own tools, be self sufficient, and perhaps most importantly have a close knit community to help you with those things you also have thousands that don't.
> 
> What does this mean? Well we already know. People will look towards leaders that can promise them safety and security even at the cost of their own freedom. Either we have the current elites with even more control over our lives, or new faces that are just as power hungry and sociopathic as what we have now. There's a very good chance they won't be the type of leaders you want either.
> 
> ...



I admit that my optimism relies on a lot of _hope_ and_ faith_. Mainly I'm betting on the fall being more slow and gradual. The coming depression might likely be a big drop down though.

The gradual decline will definitely be different across the world. Most of Africa will probably be hell (parts of Asia too). Luckily for Americans they have a built in cultural myth for government eventually becoming tyrannical and thus needing to collapse. East Europe already has gone though the fall of USSR and thus have some cultural understandings how to deal with a decline and that collective ideologies are bad.
However, I see West Europe selling themselves easily to new collective totalitarian systems. They have much denser populations than rest of the west and are much more socialized to trust whatever their government says. They are most likely to retain the same central governing complex.

I imagine rest of the west gradually decentralizing and building paralles smaller societies. Probably managed by modern equivalent of local warlords which would be like little mafia states.
Just hope you get a Mafia scenario than an African warlord one.

Ether way, I say anyone's best chance is getting out of the heat that will be big complex urban areas.

I also don't think farm owner purges will happen like in the forming of USSR. That was more of a symbolic stunt since the movement was based on the resentment of the poor farmers. Farmers were the vast majority of Russia's population. In most modern countries they are like 1/10 and people generally think they already live poor post-apocalyptical lives. So I don't see them being scape-goated as much as many other elite minority groups.

Also maybe, aim at not living on a big farmland if you don't plan on utilizing it for feeding more than yourself. I imagine those are most likely to be collectivized if it comes to that. In general I'll try to gradually set up a low profile lifestyle and try to slip though the cracks of history (as @beet644 wrote).


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## CheapMeds (Nov 20, 2022)

murph said:


> Unless there is a nuclear war, you'll be fine.
> 
> My grandparents genuinely thought, and were told repeatedly by the powers that be, that there would be an atomic war within their lifetimes. They had good reason to believe that. They were grown during WWII, they hosted soldiers in their home when those soldiers were on the way to train for an actual world war.
> 
> ...


If we scale out, I can pick anecdotal examples from how Romans believed to live in an immortal society and similarly Egyptians before the bronze collapse.
Their declines happened gradually and imperceptibly for the average person.

I'm too placing my bets on world *not *ending in nukes, because that is a limit of my optimism and I don't see wasting energy on surviving if I'm not rich enough to buy an actual fallout bunker.

However, it hasn't taken nukes to make gas, property and medical care a lot less affordable since the times of our grandparents. Even now we are globally being told to prepare for an even more ascetic compromises in the future. I only see the trajectory going one way.

Once again, I'm mainly pointing at the coming century not the decade for the decline to take place in. (however the economic depression will probably really suck too.)


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## CheapMeds (Nov 20, 2022)

Big Al's Famous Pork said:


> Our species has always muddled along. The horrors many people have faced in the last two centuries will never be something you will endure.
> Stop being a pussy.


That is exactly the point of this thread. Did you even read the very first sentence of the original post?


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## ToroidalBoat (Nov 20, 2022)

hay @Save the Loli

What does "neo-Malthusian" mean? Also I know technological progress IRL doesn't work like a "tech tree" like in _Civilization_ - what I meant was that viable power production like solar and especially nuclear may need a bunch of industries to support them.

also relevant vid:





"What If We Collapsed Like Rome?" by Fire of Learning

*tl;dw:* another Industrial Age follows another Medieval Age


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## Johnny Eastwood cash (Nov 20, 2022)

If this new dark age does happen I think most kiwi farmers will not survive or be dead before it starts


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## CheapMeds (Nov 20, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> also relevant vid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, I've seen that video, but it still was a cozy re-watch 
Really puts into perspective what a cool historical lore there will be for those who survive after such a transformation. They will probably really hype up our way of life and will spread myths that if there were skyscrapers then there must have been flying vehicles afforded by those who worked there.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 20, 2022)

I find this timestamped last segment of the last episode of a Bronze Age Collapse series by Extra Credits to be very peculiar.




Mainly their optimistic but a little cautious message,
...in a video finished in 2017 - Three Years before the Covid crisis.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 20, 2022)

I'm aware that the video is mainly about art history viewed through a Menosphere lens.
However, the second half of the video is brimming with the positive vibe I wish to propagate with this thread!


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## Save the Loli (Nov 20, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> hay @Save the Loli
> 
> What does "neo-Malthusian" mean? Also I know technological progress IRL doesn't work like a "tech tree" like in _Civilization_ - what I meant was that viable power production like solar and especially nuclear may need a bunch of industries to support them.


Nuclear energy would, but solar thermal? Nah, like I said, it's a technology that just needs a lens and a heat engine to work, neither of which are really complicated technology. But the economics of post-apocalyptic societies rarely gets explored outside of the usual doomer shit (maybe because anyone who is optimistic about the scenario doesn't believe there ever will be a post-apocalyptic world to begin with). Steel, concrete, and other industrial materials can be produced on an artisanal basis. Some African tribes produced surprisingly high-quality steel despite their otherwise primitive civilization.

Neo-Malthusian is the 1960s-onward era "our resources are running out because population/consumption/pollution" that the Rockefellers, Club of Rome, etc. promote centered around concepts like Peak Oil/Peak [Resource] and encourages population control. It's also repeatedly been proven wrong but that doesn't stop the elite from pushing it.


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## Quantum Diabetes (Nov 20, 2022)

I hope we get a fourth wave of ska before it all goes away 









						The Urge - Dark Age
					

Artist: The UrgeSong: Dark AgeAlbum: Bust Me Dat FortyYear: 1989




					youtu.be
				




(Song is called Dark Age)


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## ToroidalBoat (Nov 20, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> Neo-Malthusian


I think that whether or not "Neo-Malthusian" is true, tyranny would still use it as an excuse to grab more power anyway.

Also what do you think the odds are of extinction? If interplanetary colonization is actually achieved, those odds go to near-zero for who-knows-how-long, and if interstellar travel is achieved, the species could become effectively immortal until proton decay.

(or even longer if no proton decay - although interstellar travel could be impossible for biological life unless FTL is possible)

another relevant speculative vid:





"TIMELAPSE OF THE FUTURE: A Journey to the End of Time (4K)" by melodysheep


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## TheBigZee (Nov 21, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> And is it possible to rebuild industrialization without fossil fuels? Like doesn't solar or nuclear need complex manufacturing?


Yeah, and probably a whole lot quicker than you'd think. The remnants of this society will be everywhere, and all you need to kickstart industry without fossil fuels is copper wire and a way to turn a magnet.


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## Vibe_Lad (Nov 21, 2022)

Unless you're a second or third world denizen, you'll be fine. 

Alot of Russians emigrated to my country and seem to be doing just fine. 

Ukrainians left their country and are still making it.

I have a family that loves me very much, I am an adult with a job and a future. My country already had wars in the 90s and has stabilized enough to be called a home. No wars will be fought here for the foreseeable future. 

Unless the nukes fall, I'll be fine. 
I hope. I really do hope so.


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## Inspector Rex (Nov 21, 2022)

Croan Çhiollee said:


> Regardless of whether shit goes down or not, I'd recommend moving to a small town/getting some land, learning the basics of growing your own food/raising or hunting animals, and general self-reliance.
> Worst case, you have a better, healthier lifestyle. Best case, you might make it through any collapse.


Eh, that's debatable. If it's something like corona lockdowns, then yeah, small cities and your own land is preferrable.

However, if it comes down to total infrastructural failure aka "the collapse", I wouldn't be so sure. Even in the failed states in Africa/Middle East big cities keep some resemblance of order.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 21, 2022)

Ludisa-123 said:


> Unless you're a second or third world denizen, you'll be fine.
> 
> Alot of Russians emigrated to my country and seem to be doing just fine.
> 
> ...


I'm in a somewhat similar boat (I assume). That is why I don't see a "societal collapse" as a hellscape that American cinema depicts it as, which is why I try to spread the word that even in many worst scenarios we can make it.

However, even though UN didn't help dick in the Bosnian wars (which I assume you were at least somewhat impacted by), it can't be underestimated how much the recovery of all Eastern Europe was propped up by the global economic system at it's height being open to trade.
Which might not be there next time around.



Inspector Rex said:


> Even in the failed states in Africa/Middle East big cities keep some resemblance of order.


Genuinely wonder if that has a lot to do with the fact that cities are just easier to be supplied with foreign aid.
If that is the case, I wouldn't bet on cities, because in 1st world states it's usually the cities who are supplied by the rural parts.


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## Inspector Rex (Nov 21, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> If that is the case, I wouldn't bet on cities, because in 1st world states it's usually the cities who are supplied by the rural parts.


And they will be supplying them during the crisis, willing or not, even at their own expense. Look at WW1/WW2/Early USSR/Late Russian Empire.

Food can't be a leverage unless you have  a motivated army to protect it.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 21, 2022)

Inspector Rex said:


> And they will be supplying them during the crisis, willing or not, even at their own expense. Look at WW1/WW2/Early USSR/Late Russian Empire.
> 
> Food can't be a leverage unless you have  a motivated army to protect it.


That is a good point.
However, for family sized self-sufficiency I think you don't need something as big as a "farm" you just need a garden. I know people who grow pretty diverse and sufficient amount of food on no more than an acre of land.
It's just that you won't be first in line to get more the large-scale wheat products like flour and bread.
Meat products too, but I'm hopeful a chicken coup would be enough for protein needs. It seems to have worked for those same people.


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## Frostnipped Todger (Nov 21, 2022)

Inspector Rex said:


> Eh, that's debatable. If it's something like corona lockdowns, then yeah, small cities and your own land is preferrable.
> 
> However, if it comes down to total infrastructural failure aka "the collapse", I wouldn't be so sure. Even in the failed states in Africa/Middle East big cities keep some resemblance of order.


Where I live is a major agricultural area. If "the collapse" comes a lot of food won't be making it into the metro area. 
If we are talking total social collapse, I can walk 30 minutes and be amongst cattle and sheep farms. A little further and there's commercial vegetable farms. While they won't be maintained as well as they could be, there's enough "wild" vegetables growing on the sides of the roads to know that they'd be somewhat productive. 
Also (without knowing the exact numbers), I'd guess that the majority of people in my town are armed, and would act to stop looting, should that be an issue. 
My perspective is purely based on my circumstances, Australia as a whole could easily be self sufficient in basics, my area certainly could.
If the power went out, it would suck, but we can use wood for heating and cooking (and realistically, it's not so cold that we would die without heating). 
European countries are in a very different situation, with seriously cold winters, higher populations and "fun size" land areas. You may be correct that you'd be better off in a city, but I'd take my chances here, rather than on the  42nd floor of some high rise tower in Melbourne.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 22, 2022)

Peter Zeeshan's (who I mentioned in my 3rd post) latest take on the state of Europe.
I believe it's very relevant to the next century's resource availability and world power composition.


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## Boyd McVoid (Nov 22, 2022)

The "world" as something defined has always been falling apart, it's in an infinite process of decay and renewal and follows forces beyond our comprehension. It doesn't matter, it's just the void playing having shape and then dissolving again, for eternity


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## draggs (Nov 22, 2022)

I read enough of this bullshit in the early 2000s about muh peak oil, there isn't an X big enough to express my doubt over this doomer tunnel vision


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## ATI Escapee (Nov 22, 2022)

Watched the vids in the OP. Unrelated, but intetesting... There are very few traffic trackers on most kf pages. More on threads discussing products like clothes or tv shows. After the vids on pg 1 here, there were a couple hundred from google trying to watch me. I use Neeva



Kinda interesting


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## CheapMeds (Nov 22, 2022)

draggs said:


> I read enough of this bullshit in the early 2000s about muh peak oil, there isn't an X big enough to express my doubt over this doomer tunnel vision


The "Age" is really the word I should emphasize more in my "Dark Age" message.
I see it as a generation spanning phenomena, which is why in the "Whitepill" half of my original post I emphasize that if we are entering major decline we still have a lot of time to adjust to the historical trajectory.

Speaking about trajectory - I believe a lot will be clearer if we wait and compare how our standard of life changes between *pre 2008 crisis*,* post 2008 crisis *and *after the coming depression.*

How would you so far compare the standard of life of the average westerner between both the decades surrounding the 2008 crisis?
I personally hear that the disparity is a big reason why Millennials hold such a grudge against the Baby Boomers.


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## MvAgusta (Nov 22, 2022)

My hot take: demographic changes have caused the decline of civilizations.

High iq populations like Europeans and Asians are having lower birthrates whereas lower iq populations of the global south are having higher birthrates

This is part of the cause really


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## CheapMeds (Nov 22, 2022)

MvAgusta said:


> My hot take: demographic changes have caused the decline of civilizations.
> 
> High iq populations like Europeans and Asians are having lower birthrates whereas lower iq populations of the global south are having higher birthrates
> 
> This is part of the cause really


In general there is a hard to break trend that the people who make the most productive contributions in sustaining our modern society are least reproductive.

However, I believe that the biggest cause of population decline is urban living. So if you care about the white ethnic makeup of Europe, I think there is a solid whitepill that most homogenous white areas in Europe are outside of cities. It's still not 100% assuredness, but no demographic breeds more than farmers.


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## TV's Adam West (Nov 22, 2022)

POLICEMEN SWEAR TO GOD
LOVE SEEPING FROM THEIR GUNS


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## jje100010001 (Nov 24, 2022)

The end of the world brought to us by the accumlated sins of society:





CheapMeds said:


> Probably because there is no new green revolution saving us this time?


I feel like the Green Revolution was essentially the equivalent of redlining the agricultural engine, despite the damage it eventually does to the environment. Permanent nutrient depletion, water table decline, ecosystem collapse, these are not things that can easily bounce back, especially within our lifetimes.


MvAgusta said:


> My hot take: demographic changes have caused the decline of civilizations.
> 
> High iq populations like Europeans and Asians are having lower birthrates whereas lower iq populations of the global south are having higher birthrates
> 
> This is part of the cause really


Not even a hot take, places like Singapore are noted as being 'IQ shredders', that concentrate the brightest minds via extractive immigration while simultaneously discouraging them from reproducing by squeezing every last bit of producitivity out of them.



> _How many bright Indians and bright Chinese are there, Harry? Surely they are not infinite. And what will they do in Singapore? Well, engage in the finance and marketing rat-race and depress their fertility to 0.78, wasting valuable genes just so your property prices don’t go down. Singapore is an IQ shredder._











						Lee Kuan Yew drains your brains for short term gain | Bloody shovel
					

archived 11 Oct 2015 21:29:10 UTC




					archive.ph
				




Same goes for much of the West (no one can afford a house, marriages are dropping), with an additional spoonload of that special 'not-reproducing-to-save-the-planet' sauce heaped on by the powers to be.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 24, 2022)

jje100010001 said:


> The end of the world brought to us by the accumlated sins of society:
> View attachment 3927990


Found the thread https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/405761898
From the very first post instantly reminded why I didn't bother starting this kind of discussion there.
However, seeing others being this similarly collapse pilled on the other side of the planet sure makes it seem like there is something to collective unconsciousness.



> I feel like the Green Revolution was essentially the equivalent of redlining the agricultural engine, despite the damage it eventually does to the environment. Permanent nutrient depletion, water table decline, ecosystem collapse, these are not things that can easily bounce back, especially within our lifetimes.


We truly have been living in a _Faustian society _since the enlightenment.
tbh, when I first mentioned Green Revolution I had it mixed up with the British Agricultural Revolution.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 24, 2022)

*People, what do you think are some of the more lucrative industries/trades to get into early in a slowly collapsing/declining world?*

Except *vice*, that is too easy.


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## naaaaiiiiillllll!!! (Nov 24, 2022)

ditto said:


> the preacher man says it's the end of time...he says that america's rivers are going dry. the interest is up, the stock market's down. you guys have to be careful walking around here this late at night...this...this is the perfect place to get jumped.


Gotta send us some of that homemade wine, better than loosing your life for $43…


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## blur (Nov 24, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> View attachment 3929529
> *People, what do you think are some of the more lucrative industries/trades to get into early in a slowly collapsing/declining world?*
> 
> Except *vice*, that is too easy.


Cobbler. If you think things are reverting to 1700s then those are the eras to look.


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## Maurice Maine (Nov 24, 2022)

jje100010001 said:


> The end of the world brought to us by the accumlated sins of society:
> View attachment 3927990
> 
> I feel like the Green Revolution was essentially the equivalent of redlining the agricultural engine, despite the damage it eventually does to the environment. Permanent nutrient depletion, water table decline, ecosystem collapse, these are not things that can easily bounce back, especially within our lifetimes.
> ...


Boomers literally grew up with leaded gasoline. Shut up and die.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 24, 2022)

blur said:


> Cobbler. If you think things are reverting to 1700s then those are the eras to look.


Even I don't think we will go that far back. At least not in our lifetime. My worst case guess is that the century might end in something like 1920s.


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## blur (Nov 25, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Even I don't think we will go that far back. At least not in our lifetime. My worst case guess is that the century might end in something like 1920s.


Being able to repair anything that relies on international transport as well as having the materials to do repairs will be what provides  a steady trade come any break or regression situation. If even the bandits need you they are less likely to terrorize your household. That is especially true with the production of potentially dangerous products i.e. anything involving chemistry. 

Perhaps a smart move is to be close to the largest community of engineering talent/construction/military reserves. In that case any emergent institution will be well equipped to project power outward and preserve the productive people within. You could also look at the existing hierarchy and determine gaps in maintenance or instabilities in social structure. Regardless of what happens locally there would be a large pool of people with broad training who are mentally and materially equipped to survive hardship. 

As in any time, being capable of leading, inspiring, and organizing  people will be the most sure way to secure a place for your kin. It will be a relevant skill as long as humans exist.


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## cybertoaster (Nov 25, 2022)

First off what kind of dark age are you looking at? the fake one from the middle ages where research and science still existed? or a real one like the bronze age collapse when almost all empires but the egyptians and assyrians disappeared and were completely forgotten to the point that centuries later nobody knew who had built those cities which dwarfed anything they were building at the time?

Try to imagine what would be like if you right now stumble on a city of the future in ruins but which is bigger and more complex yet older than any city that currently exists. That's how the classical greeks felt like.

Back to the debate, global warming is real and man-made or not (there were thousands of warming and cooling episodes in earth's history) its going to screw us sideways so the right answer is not just lower emissions but go full-geoengineering, too bad that the ecotards are religious-like in their opposition to this.

Energy is a problem but there are solutions, its just not as simple and straightforward as oil. Electricity will get cheaper while liquid fuels go up, this means that things like travel and logistics are gonna become expensive again. In short you're gonna have your AC and internet access but might never leave your town nor buy fruit that has been shipped from the other side of the world.

As for the economy I think that as material goods become more expensive then conspicuous consumption will move to the virtual space. NFTs and metaverses already showed normies are more than willing to pay for shit that doesn't actually exists. If an actual human-built matrix ever goes online expect a trillion dollar economy to form within it.

Lower birthrates are not the real problem, we just crossed the 8 billion mark when the planet can't sustain 2 billion without shitting the bed. Automation already shows even the knowledge industry isn't safe and in fact its way easier to automate than manual work. Space exploration is a nothingburger and things like asteroid mining will likely be done by drones and not people, so why you want more humans?

Frankly the real threat is cultural decay, that's how most civilizations have gone to shit, they were already decaying and then something happens that blows the house of cards down. Rome fell because most romans just didn't give a fuck anymore, and I see the same now with most people in Europe saying that they wouldn't die for their country, or books like 'Bowling alone' showing the systemic failures caused by the disintegration of communities. There is now a real palpable possibility of a nuclear war and/or global famine and yet nobody cares, they're far too busy with the quasi-religion of woke gender issues and representation.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 25, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> First off what kind of dark age are you looking at?


Something more like the Bronze Age one but slower like the Roman Empire collapse and not as far of a fall. I think thanks to us being in the information age we'll do much better at preserving useful knowladge than in previous falls.


> global warming is real and man-made or not


I think so too. I just didn't bother claiming if it's real or not when talking about Great Reset, because I didn't want to get in a debate with anyone on that subject here.
The point I was making is that it's still used as a distraction from other problems reversing our economic growth. Focusing only on Global warming (real or not) just makes it easy for them to argue for more centralization in their hands. However, admitting most other factors could serve to argue more for decentralization.



> Energy is a problem but there are solutions, its just not as simple and straightforward as oil. Electricity will get cheaper while liquid fuels go up, this means that things like travel and logistics are gonna become expensive again. In short you're gonna have your AC and internet access but might never leave your town nor buy fruit that has been shipped from the other side of the world.


I just don't see our current world system being sustained without the "straightforwardness of oil". I don't see any growth in moving to electricity and batteries. It's all just compromises and softening of an inescapable decline coming from oil restrictions (which might as well be justified because of Global warming).

I think you are severally underestimating how much of the "post cheap oil" growth was possible thanks to integrating offshore cheap Asian labor (also an abstract form of energy) into the US globalistic sector. Now even that gravy train is ending since that labor is becoming less cheap and huge parts are incrementally isolating and resigning out from the US lead global system (Russia, China and even India is aiming to become a world power.)

Africa might be the next frontier, but now that pie will have to be fought over by several competing global sectors and China already has secured a big slice. Additionally Africa won't be as easy to wrangle as the far more stable Asian countries in the 90's.



> As for the economy I think that as material goods become more expensive then conspicuous consumption will move to the virtual space. NFTs and metaverses already showed normies are more than willing to pay for shit that doesn't actually exists. If an actual human-built matrix ever goes online expect a trillion dollar economy to form within it.


That also is something yet to be seen if such computing intensive bullshit economies are able to hold under the coming material pressures in the real world. The last crypto bubble already did a huge number on the chip supply chain. I don't imagine it fairing well in a processing power arms-race once blockchain actually goes mainstream.



> Lower birthrates are not the real problem, we just crossed the 8 billion mark when the planet can't sustain 2 billion without shitting the bed


It is a big problem. As the birth rates go down we still have to take care of a very long demographic tail of unproductive retirees that we worked really hard to extend by making our life expectancy the longest in history.



> Automation already shows even the knowledge industry isn't safe and in fact its way easier to automate than manual work.


That is yet to be seen if automation ends up adding enough productivity in areas that would allow automation to pay for itself. I don't think "Knowledge industry" is mainly that area. Most of the critical upkeep will have to be done through manual labor and we have yet to see if it complexity will just keep growing indefinitely or if it balances out somewhere.

However if automation does take over, does it not make Metaverse and all that stuff redundant? Why upkeep anything like that if there is no value to be extracted from its users? Internet now runs on advertising and subscriptions. If 90% people stop generating any substantive material value why would any automation-run-technocracy care about maintaining a huge virtual daycare center for useless eaters?

As I see it, ether way it goes, it may be better to learn to grow.



> Space exploration is a nothingburger and things like asteroid mining will likely be done by drones and not people, so why you want more humans?


I think it's far more likely that even drone asteroid mining will go in the way of the Concorde because of it's economic return on investment.



> Frankly the real threat is cultural decay,


It is far from the only real one. However it is a big one, because the apathy multiplies the severity of the many other problems if there is less and less will for people to fix them.


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## PaleTay (Nov 26, 2022)

I hope not. There's already enough pain and suffering in the world. While a Mad Max apocalypse might be fun, seeing more immigrants and urban decay is more likely.


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## Save the Loli (Nov 26, 2022)

jje100010001 said:


> Not even a hot take, places like Singapore are noted as being 'IQ shredders', that concentrate the brightest minds via extractive immigration while simultaneously discouraging them from reproducing by squeezing every last bit of producitivity out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cities have literally ALWAYS functioned as IQ shredders since the biggest city on the planet was a village with 700 people in it who wanted to hang out closer to the local chief and his genius shaman. Cities have always had lower birth rates, higher infant mortality, and before the past 60-70 years (if you live in the West), shorter life expectancy because they were cesspits of disease, water pollution, and later air pollution. But smart people have historically moved to cities because that's where the opportunities were. Why bother being the smartest farmer in your village when you can spend your life convincing the king and his ministers about the genius of your agricultural policy?

The reality is IQ is determined by more than just genes and there's very likely an "adaption" sort of effect. This is especially true in urban groups since cities require different skills to navigate successfully which is why merchant communities like Ashkenazi Jews (higher than non-merchant Jews like traditional Middle Eastern Jews/Mizrahim), some Chinese groups, and Gujaratis (highest IQ out of any Indian group) have such high IQs.


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## Larry David's Crypto Fund (Nov 26, 2022)

Watching a movie from the 1940s with a couple zoomers and trying to be the helpful old relative explaining things to make it make sense and realizing that while I understand all these references and cultural touchpoints that my great-great-grandparents understood, these kids don't even understand things from my parents' era. At all. The great discontinuity is upon us. The knowledge is being lost as we speak. I don't know what to do except "keep circulating the tapes."


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## Shidoen (Nov 26, 2022)

Duh that’s why I bought night vision goggles and guns.


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## ToroidalBoat (Nov 26, 2022)

One would have to be either ignorant, delusional, or in denial to see Current Year Clown World as a "utopia" like the SJWs seem to. I really do hope this world can stop being a dystopia, and that Current Year can go back to just being "the present" again. Or at least that space colonization is never done so that tyranny stays contained.


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## cybertoaster (Nov 26, 2022)

@CheapMeds can't quote you but the point I was trying to make was not of a "soft landing", when I mentioned the internet and AC I mean stuff like a favela in Rio where you see rundown shacks made of exposed brick and tin roofs but they got a cheap AC unit made in brazil and inside they got smartphones and a smartTV with netflix, but they dont have a car and never leave the city let alone travel to another continent. Electricity will not get cheaper, it just wont get as expensive as oil because you can always get solar, but the sun is not going to start raining hydrocarbons on us.

Also in a situation like this local labor is gonna get cheaper, not as cheap as current chinese semislavery but cheap enough that most things are gonna get be made locally, and if thats not an option then its not gonna be available at all, or require shipping thats more expensive than what anyone but the richest guy in town can afford, just like the old days.

Quality of life will go down, dont even doubt that. Seniors? you can already see whats going to happen by taking a look at what canada is doing with euthanasia, its already being slowly normalized so normies will just accept it.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 26, 2022)

@cybertoaster 
You know, I think my biggest misstep with this thread was abandoning the "IF" in "if society is heading for a Dark Age" when making my original posts to make them more concise, direct and punchy. Since I did that now I feel like I played myself into a position where I need to argue and get invested for the society to fall. That is an unnecessary shitty position to be in.

I really just made this thread to cope in a "doomer optimistic" way, by trying to draft up a narrative that lets go of hope of things getting as good as they used to, but is still a cool call to an adventure.
For the last few years, it really does seem that maybe we are like the Romans, Egyptians or any other people who thought they lived in an immortal society as they were in a decline or approaching a disaster.



> when I mentioned the internet and AC I mean stuff like a favela in Rio where you see rundown shacks made of exposed brick and tin roofs but they got a cheap AC unit made in brazil and inside they got smartphones and a smartTV with netflix, but they dont have a car and never leave the city let alone travel to another continent. Electricity will not get cheaper, it just wont get as expensive as oil because you can always get solar, but the sun is not going to start raining hydrocarbons on us.
> 
> Also in a situation like this local labor is gonna get cheaper, not as cheap as current chinese semislavery but cheap enough that most things are gonna get be made locally, and if thats not an option then its not gonna be available at all, or require shipping thats more expensive than what anyone but the richest guy in town can afford, just like the old days.


As bullshit of a term that "Dark Age" is, is it not applicable to this scenario? Yeah, it's not how I imagined the bottom to look like.
However, the electronics in your real life example still depend on there being a consumer targeted global manufacturing system in the background. Is it that unlikely that there won't be such a thing? Ether because modern industries do collapse, or 90% of people are just useless eaters since most corporate needs are automated anyway? I guess useless eaters will need to be pacified, but maybe walling them off will be easier.



> Quality of life will go down, dont even doubt that. Seniors? you can already see whats going to happen by taking a look at what canada is doing with euthanasia, its already being slowly normalized so normies will just accept it.


Maybe. I totally see them trying to do that. There are many terrible policies that are pushed by governments under the noses of unsuspecting normies. But getting people to willingly kill themselves in mass might be the most difficult psyop in history. So far I've only been hearing small exceptional examples of mentally and/or physically sick people taking that way out.


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## cybertoaster (Nov 26, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> However, the electronics in your real life example still depend on there being a consumer targeted global manufacturing system in the background. Is it that unlikely that there won't be such a thing? Ether because modern industries do collapse, or 90% of people are just useless eaters since most corporate needs are automated anyway? I guess useless eaters will need to be pacified, but maybe walling them off will be easier.


Smartphones and content-on-demand (everything from youtube to gamepass) has had a huge pacifying effect on the population at large. I seen it both in the first world and in the third world, normies just lay down and watch shit rather than actually rebel. 

The cost of making consumer electronics keeps going down, it will be far more efficient for the people up top to keep these things accessible than sustaining the already declining quality of life of the general population. Most normies could be reduced to favela-levels of squalors and there would be no revolution because there are viral videos and gatcha games for free.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 26, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> Smartphones and content-on-demand (everything from youtube to gamepass) has had a huge pacifying effect on the population at large. I seen it both in the first world and in the third world, normies just lay down and watch shit rather than actually rebel.
> 
> The cost of making consumer electronics keeps going down, it will be far more efficient for the people up top to keep these things accessible than sustaining the already declining quality of life of the general population. Most normies could be reduced to favela-levels of squalors and there would be no revolution because there are viral videos and gatcha games for free.


Oh, you know what might be cheaper than cheap electronics? - *Drugs.*
For example, the reason why vodka is such a big part of former soviet state culture is because the vodka industry was very state subsidized for this exact reason by USSR.


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## cybertoaster (Nov 26, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Oh, you know what might be cheaper than cheap electronics? - *Drugs.*


Not precise enough, things get out of hand too easily, addicts become violent when they need a fix, etc. Electronics allow you to keep control, the ccp shows you can even "dose" it to keep people from getting too uppity or too lazy, to spot rebellious trends before anything happens. Can't do that with drugs, best you can do is use drugs to get rid of the "useless eaters" which if you look at the fentanyl crisis and the demographics of its victims it sort of seems like what its happening.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 26, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> things get out of hand too easily, addicts become violent when they need a fix


Would they get violent from drug scarcity if the drug distribution is funded by a super productive automated technocracy?
Anyway this is why I'm still rooting for a low tech collapse, if it's between that or this.


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## cybertoaster (Nov 26, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Would they get violent from drug scarcity if the drug distribution is funded by a super productive automated technocracy?


Again the problem is the lack of control, smart shit its basically monitoring you 24/7.

I hope you aren't phoneposting from the clearnet.


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## CheapMeds (Nov 26, 2022)

@cybertoaster I'm not, but I'm not posting this from Tor either.


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## Save the Loli (Nov 26, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> @CheapMeds can't quote you but the point I was trying to make was not of a "soft landing", when I mentioned the internet and AC I mean stuff like a favela in Rio where you see rundown shacks made of exposed brick and tin roofs but they got a cheap AC unit made in brazil and inside they got smartphones and a smartTV with netflix, but they dont have a car and never leave the city let alone travel to another continent. Electricity will not get cheaper, it just wont get as expensive as oil because you can always get solar, but the sun is not going to start raining hydrocarbons on us.


Nope, input energy, output hydrocarbons. The reason this isn't done (much) now is because the economics of it are politically rigged. It would take years to get approval, have to fight like 50 lawsuits, and by the time it's finally built, the price of oil has come way down so it isn't profitable anymore. Similar bullshit to why we don't get new refineries.

I'm not sure if intermittency would affect the process any more than it affects electricity in general, but solar thermal, pumped storage, flywheels, etc. would solve that problem nicely even if it takes away from the selling point of solar/wind being the "cheapest form of energy" (which is the real scam in solar energy).


CheapMeds said:


> Oh, you know what might be cheaper than cheap electronics? - *Drugs.*


Yes, that's part of why there's a huge push to legalize weed. Weed just makes you act retarded and sleepy without the violence and spontaneity of alcohol. It's the perfect drug for the elite to use on us.


CheapMeds said:


> For example, the reason why vodka is such a big part of former soviet state culture is because the vodka industry was very state subsidized for this exact reason by USSR.


Vodka was literally a license for the Russian government to print money since the Tsar was still in power, of course they'd subsidize it. People don't realize how big alcohol sales were for government revenue in the past. The real reason Prohibition was repealed was because FDR needed money.


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## cybertoaster (Nov 26, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> Nope, input energy, output hydrocarbons. The reason this isn't done (much) now is because the economics of it are politically rigged. It would take years to get approval, have to fight like 50 lawsuits, and by the time it's finally built, the price of oil has come way down so it isn't profitable anymore. Similar bullshit to why we don't get new refineries.


_Using conventional FT technology the process ranges in carbon efficiency from 25 to 50 percent[43] and a thermal efficiency of about 50%[44] for CTL facilities idealised at 60%[45] with GTL facilities at about 60%[44] efficiency idealised to 80%[45] efficiency._

Thats from wikipedia so don't be surprised if its been doctored by the corporations involved. So yeah this might be used by the elite to keep their biz jets fueled, but forget about eating out-of-season fruit from the other side of the planet or cheap cruises and airfare, unless you're part of the elite.

_"So you better netflix and chill with your hand, don't get uppity if you know whats good for you"_


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## Otterly (Nov 27, 2022)

I think a lot of the degrowth in the system is deliberate. We are being conditioned to much lower living standards. I think we will carry on losing our freedoms and lowering our standards of living, by just enough to not make people snap and eviscerate the WEF. 
   You see it already with trivial things - fewer types of an item on the shelves in the supermarket. Where there were fifteen brands of something now there’s five just spread out. My local mall is pointless to shop for the kids - they have only a few sizes of stuff, couldn’t find socks int he right size for one of the despite trying a few shops. 
   I think food will get more expensive, meat in particular. We will be slowly ground down. And by the time it gets really bad the control grid will be such that any dissent gets your digital wallet locked and you’re screwed. 
   One thing I will say is print your photographs. Don’t leave them all in the cloud.


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## Sweetpeaa (Nov 28, 2022)

And then 2008 made things far worse for even the college educated middle class.. 

All the race, gender, trans and anti abortion crap has been a continued distraction in the last 14 years from the absolute shit economic state. The living standard has just been dropping continuously since then and race and other culture wars seem to be the choice diversion by the powers that be for the common folk. Covid just further accelerated this shit even more.

Dark age? We're already there. It doesn't have to be Mad Max level  to be a collapse.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 2, 2022)

I was thinking the other day about this question I had posted here...


CheapMeds said:


> *People, what do you think are some of the more lucrative industries/trades to get into early in a slowly collapsing/declining world?*





blur said:


> Being able to repair anything that relies on international transport as well as having the materials to do repairs will be what provides  a steady trade come any break or regression situation. If even the bandits need you they are less likely to terrorize your household. *That is especially true with the production of potentially dangerous products i.e. anything involving chemistry.*


I think the *chemistry part* shouldn't be brushed over too fast.


Being proficient in Chemistry might pretty much make you a *wizard* in a slowly "de-industrializing" world.
Because being able to precure niche and crucial chemicals or viable substitutes that currently are supplied by global supply chains, would be like knowing how to create gold.
Just knowing how to make disinfectants, hygienic products and preservatives in an ever greasier world while most others are embracing the farm life would give you a very powerful economic edge.
It would also make you much more irreplaceable and more valuable alive than dead even if circumstances are dire enough to call that into question.

Or you can just make meth.


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## blur (Dec 3, 2022)

Chemistry and maybe some practical macro physics. Knowledge set that is expandable and would be useful in any scenario, even if marooned on an island. 

I for one am not worried about this scenario because I need specific medicine to survive, but my friends are and I help where I can. 

But yeah I would pick the wizard class then tag the local ecology and nearby natural resource perks.

You can already profit from wizardry. During the opening _excitement_ phase of covid hand sanitizer was impossible to come by but I picked up the components and synthesized money. Throughout the shortage anyone could easily order boxes of chlorhexidine (CHX) gluconate without any markup or restrictions.  Effective viralcide even when diluted.


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## Maurice Maine (Dec 3, 2022)

Otterly said:


> I think a lot of the degrowth in the system is deliberate. We are being conditioned to much lower living standards. I think we will carry on losing our freedoms and lowering our standards of living, by just enough to not make people snap and eviscerate the WEF.
> You see it already with trivial things - fewer types of an item on the shelves in the supermarket. Where there were fifteen brands of something now there’s five just spread out. My local mall is pointless to shop for the kids - they have only a few sizes of stuff, couldn’t find socks int he right size for one of the despite trying a few shops.
> I think food will get more expensive, meat in particular. We will be slowly ground down. And by the time it gets really bad the control grid will be such that any dissent gets your digital wallet locked and you’re screwed.
> One thing I will say is print your photographs. Don’t leave them all in the cloud.


You're not seeing the bigger picture. Fifteen brands of something is not normal. You gotta the understand the world isn't like America. The real doozy's that everything in the supermarket is getting worse. Like, tastes different, I dunno. Prices keep going up. The apparatus being set up by the fellas in charge won't work long-term as it'll all collapse as all dictatorships do.


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## Beak Thing (Dec 3, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> I was thinking the other day about this question I had posted here...
> 
> 
> I think the *chemistry part* shouldn't be brushed over too fast.
> ...


I think more than a few Christian saints were identified as such because they were buried with glass bottles of ancient perfumes...both the bottle itself and the perfume would be nothing more than magic to the people of the decaying lands of post-Roman Western Europe.


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## Ted_Breakfast (Dec 3, 2022)

We're already there. Nothing gets invented, nothing gets cured.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 4, 2022)

Latest example I've come across of how even tech boomer billionaires are investing in a collapsing future.




Yes, they (especially the guest) do use a lot of gay nu-speak, but I believe the whole context of the message is relevant.


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## Phalanges Mycologist (Dec 4, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> Smartphones and content-on-demand (everything from youtube to gamepass) has had a huge pacifying effect on the population at large. I seen it both in the first world and in the third world, normies just lay down and watch shit rather than actually rebel.



It's the modern bread and circuses, this time around they just found a way of making the prolls pay for it too.


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## blur (Dec 4, 2022)

Everyone has to remember that the future is not set in stone either. There could be a paradigm shift that changes everything. Time never goes in reverse but culture can move along any vector.

If a handful of people run the world only a few minds have to change for tectonic shifts to happen.


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## 56 others (Dec 4, 2022)

I think a major shrink of our economy and population will be a good thing, the less people, the more resources. There are a lot of businesses and industries that i have no understanding of how they are able to exist, and that I dont think should exist. 80% of stuff in walmart is just straight trash.


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## CowPox (Dec 4, 2022)

Is it true a 3000 year old blood cult controls the Earth?


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## timewave0 (Dec 4, 2022)

You are not wrong who deem 
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none
Is it therefore the less _gone?
All _that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 4, 2022)

56 others said:


> I think a major shrink of our economy and population will be a good thing, the less people, the more resources. There are a lot of businesses and industries that i have no understanding of how they are able to exist, and that I dont think should exist. 80% of stuff in walmart is just straight trash.


Sentiments like that make the lobster king sad.




However, I do believe he is right that things aren't as simple as* less people meaning more stuff for them*. Modern world evolved in an ecosystem where there were always guaranteed more manpower in the future. Taking that out of the equation could possibly be really bad, but it had to end somewhere.
Maybe the *game was rigged from the start* after all.

Still I prefer this route than nuclear holocaust or famine cuz food doesn't seem like issue.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 4, 2022)

Just a pic I recently came across on /pol/


I find it relevant to the thread and some of the things in it made me chuckle.


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## ♂CANAM productions♂ (Dec 4, 2022)

56 others said:


> I think a major shrink of our economy and population will be a good thing, the less people, the more resources. There are a lot of businesses and industries that i have no understanding of how they are able to exist, and that I dont think should exist. 80% of stuff in walmart is just straight trash.


I don't think that will happen. The west can always import immigrants. The question becomes if global trade collapses.

Now, a death of true intellect.  A disease of the mind, perhaps. But it is required for a greater rebirth.


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## blur (Dec 4, 2022)

56 others said:


> I think a major shrink of our economy and population will be a good thing, the less people, the more resources. There are a lot of businesses and industries that i have no understanding of how they are able to exist, and that I dont think should exist. 80% of stuff in walmart is just straight trash.


The elites are useless eaters just like everyone else. Especially them since their power structure, redundant production, and financial mechanisms should have been outdated since the dawn of the computing age. It is funny to hear the obvious cognitive dissonance from the likes of harari about every topic he pontificates on. 

I think that most of the people at the top for some reason see themselves as either essential expressions of the human spirit or destined to be like the beings described in The Golden Age. They still realize at a fundamental level that they are meaningless in their own eyes and try to hide their own logic behind a laughably contrived value system. So often does depravity resemble insanity. We are going to turn humanity into gods by killing all people. 

Just read the WEF philosophers and trend setters. They vacillate between smug assuredness of their impending godhood and mewling fear regarding their works. Pathetic and vain in the way that only bug men can be.

The elite are more afraid of the future than anyone else is.


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## Irrational Exuberance (Dec 4, 2022)

blur said:


> I think that most of the people at the top for some reason see themselves as either essential expressions of the human spirit or destined to be like the beings described in The Golden Age. They still realize at a fundamental level that they are meaningless in their own eyes and try to hide their own logic behind a laughably contrived value system. So often does depravity resemble insanity. We are going to turn humanity into gods by killing all people.


The issue is that there are those among them who have sold themselves to a cosmic force that _hates_ humanity, and if at all possible would twist and corrupt it into a form that mocks and blasphemes the One who created it to be like Himself.

Yes, I am arguing from a religious standpoint; take from it what suits you. But I think the time for contentious bickering and back-and-forth is coming to an end, in view of what is to come. Take refuge from the storm while you can, before it destroys everyone and everything.


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## 56 others (Dec 4, 2022)

I would say the elites should be afraid of lead, but most people think that the elites are experts that should be in control. Mobody even knows what an expert is, besides the fact they are paraded around on the news.



blur said:


> Just read the WEF philosophers and trend setters. They vacillate between smug assuredness of their impending godhood and mewling fear regarding their works. Pathetic and vain in the way that only bug men can be.



I dont get the kind of world the schwab is trying to make, he's going to die soon. Who is he setting up the world for, what is the motivation of his Great Work of ruling over everything if he wont be there to hold the power? Is it just pure evil, or does he really think he's going to leave a better world behind for everyone?


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## Save the Loli (Dec 4, 2022)

56 others said:


> I think a major shrink of our economy and population will be a good thing, the less people, the more resources. There are a lot of businesses and industries that i have no understanding of how they are able to exist, and that I dont think should exist. 80% of stuff in walmart is just straight trash.


I think the cost you'd pay for tech since you no longer have cheap labor would balance out the goods not being disposable shit meant to be thrown away after a year (like Apple's garbage).


CheapMeds said:


> Sentiments like that make the lobster king sad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is literally one case in recorded history (not prehistoric shit like the Toba eruption) where world population dropped, and that was the 14th century largely because of the Black Death. In Europe that led to unprecedented prosperity and bargaining power for the peasantry which flowed upward to the middle class whose actions led to the creation of capitalism which ensured Europe took over the world. Naturally, the elite don't want that since that means we the people would have a say, so the solution is to import gorillions of people from Africa and the Middle East while they plan on population control schemes to take everyone's shit for themselves.


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## blur (Dec 4, 2022)

56 others said:


> I would say the elites should be afraid of lead, but most people think that the elites are experts that should be in control. Mobody even knows what an expert is, besides the fact they are paraded around on the news.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont get the kind of world the schwab is trying to make, he's going to die soon. Who is he setting up the world for, what is the motivation of his Great Work of ruling over everything if he wont be there to hold the power? Is it just pure evil, or does he really think he's going to leave a better world behind for everyone?


Do most people think that the rulers should be in control, or do they not think about it at all? 

I agree with your assessment of schwab. He, like most others in his circles, is delusional. These people immerse themself in fictions that they pay think tanks to produce. Maybe they are trying to hide from their fear of death. Do they even believe that they will die? 

Reading schwab in particular gives one the impression that he sees his self as timeless. He is an intelligent but fear motivated man who looks at the present and future as a historian. He has ample ambition but it is so narrowly directed on a flawed understanding of reality and humanity. Schwab and the elite are afraid of anything that could bring instability which in turn would lead to a reversion to the endless wars in Europe but this time with nuclear and biological weapons. To that end they seek to have less people (less different ideas), more ethnic intermixture (less incentive to fight relatives supposedly), less religion (divergent power structures based on presuppositions), less privacy (better threat assessment), and more control (superior threat countermeasures). In their minds this is necessary to the survival of humanity. I do not believe they think that this is a better future, but the only safe one. 

The solutions are the same as any regime that thinks it has good intentions but in actuality is just clinging onto power. 

High level people are often broken people. The elite's patterns of living are similar to fatalistic cults and most of them have highly dysfunctional personal lives in addition to their genocidal "solutions" to every problem. I think that their actions and intentions are very multifaceted but not impossible to change and to do so rapidly. I intend to test this in the near future.


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## ♂CANAM productions♂ (Dec 4, 2022)

56 others said:


> I would say the elites should be afraid of lead, but most people think that the elites are experts that should be in control. Mobody even knows what an expert is, besides the fact they are paraded around on the news.


It takes little to order others, it takes much more to _lead_ others.


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## blur (Dec 11, 2022)

♂CANAM productions♂ said:


> I don't think that will happen. The west can always import immigrants. The question becomes if global trade collapses.
> 
> Now, a death of true intellect.  A disease of the mind, perhaps. But it is required for a greater rebirth.


"Respect death and recall forefathers, the good in men will again grow sturdy."


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## Rome's rightful successor (Dec 15, 2022)

We're at the point where a complete collapse of post modern society and civilization would be the far better option than to let this ride continue. 
I really hope that when everything falls it is people like us that comes to power.


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## Lemmingwiser (Dec 15, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> Smartphones and content-on-demand (everything from youtube to gamepass) has had a huge pacifying effect on the population at large. I seen it both in the first world and in the third world, normies just lay down and watch shit rather than actually rebel.
> 
> The cost of making consumer electronics keeps going down, it will be far more efficient for the people up top to keep these things accessible than sustaining the already declining quality of life of the general population. Most normies could be reduced to favela-levels of squalors and there would be no revolution because there are viral videos and gatcha games for free.


The color revolutions were pretty much social media and smartphone driven. So yes and no.


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## The Lawgiver (Dec 15, 2022)

If society collapses either I better become the dark overlord of the new united states or at least get a cute skinwalker gf that smells of decay and wards off redditors and twitter users who do  "I SAW THING THAT COULD SHAPESHIFT AND MY BLOOD RAN COLD" stories. Like dude if you're gonna run into a shapeshifting cryptid at least introduce them to modern society once you find out what they are. Like dude give it a  hamburger or something the damn things only got like random ass animals to eat out there nothing of quality no wonder they smell like ass 24/7.


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## Irrational Exuberance (Dec 15, 2022)

Rome's rightful successor said:


> We're at the point where a complete collapse of post modern society and civilization would be the far better option than to let this ride continue.
> I really hope that when everything falls it is people like us that comes to power.


You _hope?_ Well, hope in one hand and crap in the other...

Seriously, there are examples throughout history of what happens when the old order collapses: the people who rise to the top are invariably those who either saw it coming and prepared for it, or the utter psychopaths who claw their way over the bodies of their fellow man, yet who are _just_ charismatic enough to not be killed outright.


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## ditto (Dec 15, 2022)

YouTube has started hiding and deleting the Little Dark Age videos.

Now I'm convinced it's coming.


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## The Lawgiver (Dec 15, 2022)

Irrational Exuberance said:


> You _hope?_ Well, hope in one hand and crap in the other...
> 
> Seriously, there are examples throughout history of what happens when the old order collapses: the people who rise to the top are invariably those who either saw it coming and prepared for it, or the utter psychopaths who claw their way over the bodies of their fellow man, yet who are _just_ charismatic enough to not be killed outright.


Ok but hypothetically lets say i built like a big ass castle out of several abandoned buildings and then made a cool moat around it with stolen heavy machinery... What then? I'd say that'd be the top without those other options.


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## The Internet Dick (Dec 15, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> So if a collapse is certain...


A collapse is always certain. The ancient Sumerians had a civilization stretching across millennia but it all eventually went back to the clay. Later, all but Egypt of the nation-states of the Bronze Age more or less disappeared within a century in a cataclysmic succession of natural disasters such as earthquake and drought, which in turn brought about pestilence, starvation, forced mass migration, and violence on an all-consuming scale in the known world not seen again until WWI. Civilizations come and go. That's the way of it. The good news for you is all doomsayers will eventually be proven right in the end about the end.

As an aside, I should point out your line about 'watching the world burn' is a bit of a misnomer given you and probably everyone you know will be burning painfully and horrifically along with it, not leisurely sipping frou-frou boat drinks from the veranda.


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## Timmy Jolsen (Dec 16, 2022)

Rome's rightful successor said:


> I really hope that when everything falls it is people like us that comes to power.


Nigger like half of us couldn't even manage to run our accounts after the September bullshit, how the hell do you expect us to run a country?


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## Wesley Willis (Dec 16, 2022)

Inflated real estate prices, pollution and wars to protect economic cartels that deal natural resources are the main causes of this hysteria. I do believe we are "overpopulated" in the sense that the bughive model has concentrated people too heavily, but do not subscribe to the endtime prophesies.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 17, 2022)

Something I’ve been thinking a lot lately.





As unlikable as this idea is for some here,* I think modern left wing eco-zealots are gradually placing themselves in the same position that early Christians were in the dawn of Roman Empire.*

They might be a relatively small number now, but they are very zealous and unlike trannies or poltards they go outside and do stuff in real life much more often. Don’t be fooled that it’s just the stupid stunts in cultural institutions. They actually perform some real industrial sabotage.





Your browser is not able to display this video.



Full twitter thread on this happening - https://twitter.com/illwilleditions/status/1601937473499799552

You just don’t hear about it much outside their circles, because news like that might actually impact the stock market.

If global environmental degradation does spiral to a point that modern society becomes too chaotic, they might acquire enough ammunition to create a strong archetypal religious meta-narrative.
*It might go something like us destroying our “garden of Eden” through our “industrial sins” for which we’ll need to repent by subjugating ourselves to an ascetic way of life and planting trees.*

Because of these archetypal similarities I think the memes might even greatly reshape the current state of Christianity. The memes just need to be framed in a way that goes something like "the last half millennia society has ate the fruit of forbidden knowledge (science)" or that "society has made a Faustian bargain with science and now has lost it’s soul (nature)".

It might not seem like that through an American lens, but the US alliance between industrialists and Christians has really only been an alliance of convince and lip-service where one has supplied jobs for the other. It didn’t take that long for Pope to get buck-broken by the LGBTQ agenda, so I can see Gaia worshipers taking over next once the trannies die off from lack of medical care.

However, speaking of Gaia, Gaia-centric thinking is very matriarchal. It might be a compatibility issue with other Abrahamic religions. However, modernity is becoming aggressively matriarchal.






To me this really looks like setting of the stage for possibly millennia spanning religious paradigm shift.
Which might really suck.


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## cybertoaster (Dec 17, 2022)

Lemmingwiser said:


> The color revolutions were pretty much social media and smartphone driven. So yes and no.


Those rebellions were 100% manufactured by the dept. of state, alphabet agencies and their loyal lapdogs in tech. They were even bragging at the time about this manipulation, some saying live in the news that on top of all that they should be airdropping equipment to the rioters so they can circumvent all local telcom censorship. 10 years later you got the same manipulation in the 2020 election (see twitter files) and we're shipping starlink antennas into ukraine, what a coincidence right? almost like that was the beta test and now only approved riots like blm get the green light (see all governors and mayors keeping the police away and refusing the national guard) while the same chimpout but on the other side (the capitol shit) gets shut down and participants put in jail without trial just like in those middle east dictatorships.


CheapMeds said:


> Something I’ve been thinking a lot lately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aren't these guys funded by soros or some other billionaires? where are they getting the money for all this fancy shit? because I seen grassroot enviro groups before and they could hardly get enough money for gas to go to a protest. On the other hand back in the 2000s you had anti-tobacco protesters who were paid actors hired by NGOs, how do we know most of these idiots aren't part of that? Consider the number of ex-cons in the blm protests and even blm chapters, how do we know this kind of violent elements are being paid to do this? Consider how such actions combined with the idiotic public stunts have the double effect of making people cringe at it and justifying the use of force. Suddenly not only are these fucks prosecuted but also literally anyone complaining about the environment, even the guy who is tired about the water in his town being full of cadmiun and mercury, which unlike these demented hippies (zero-emissions by 2025? how is this anything but a joke demand?) is a completely reasonable complaint.

And look at their symbol, it looks more like an alt-right logo than something liberal or natural, its like somebody in a PR think tank said _"we need a symbol that unconsciously invokes ideas of fascist violence and fanaticism"_, it all feels too manufactured to be just a coincidence.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 17, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> Aren't these guys funded by soros or some other billionaires? where are they getting the money for all this fancy shit? because I seen grassroot enviro groups before and they could hardly get enough money for gas to go to a protest. On the other hand back in the 2000s you had anti-tobacco protesters who were paid actors hired by NGOs, how do we know most of these idiots aren't part of that? Consider the number of ex-cons in the blm protests and even blm chapters, how do we know this kind of violent elements are being paid to do this? Consider how such actions combined with the idiotic public stunts have the double effect of making people cringe at it and justifying the use of force. Suddenly not only are these fucks prosecuted but also literally anyone complaining about the environment, even the guy who is tired about the water in his town being full of cadmiun and mercury, which unlike these demented hippies (zero-emissions by 2025? how is this anything but a joke demand?) is a completely reasonable complaint.


Groups like Extinction Rebellion most likely are funded by billionaire interest groups. I imagine pretty much all left wing activist groups are funded as an attempted form of control of public dissidence to steer them away form meaningful impact. Direct suppression is reserved for right wing groups to keep the narrative straight.

*However, the point of that post was a theoretical guess of who fills the narrative vacuum. Even if they are useful idiot lapdogs now, the guess is that once the chains are off in a chaotic ecologically degraded world, that world might be ripe for their ideas to take hold to a religious level organically.*



> And look at their symbol, it looks more like an alt-right logo than something liberal or natural, its like somebody in a PR think tank said _"we need a symbol that unconsciously invokes ideas of fascist violence and fanaticism"_, it all feels too manufactured to be just a coincidence.


They might be, I thought they were just shooting to make something as iconic as the nuclear disarmament peace symbol. However unlike hippies they make no pretense that they are a more aggressive and desperate movement.

I guess I can see fashy vibe by having a cross on their symbol, but everything else about their presentation is so gay.


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## cybertoaster (Dec 17, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Groups like Extinction Rebelion most likely are funded by billionaire interest groups. I imagine pretty much all left wing activist groups are funded as an attempted form of control of public dissidence to steer them away form meaningful impact


Yeah that's what I been saying.


CheapMeds said:


> *However. the point of that post was a theoretical guess of who fills the narrative vacuum. Even if they are useful idiot lapdogs now, the guess is that once the chains are off in a chaotic ecologically degraded world, that world might be ripe for their ideas to take hold to a religious level organically.*


Maybe, but we're living in interesting (read: horrific) times for propaganda. Consider how 70 years ago over 20 million russians died fighting a regime that said they were subhumans, the rest of the world horrified at this. Now the world and in particular the countries that were russia's allies back then are openly saying russians are subhumans, that their culture should be censored in other countries and you got "artists" making russian orcs cartoons which not only don't get banned for racism but are promoted in social media, all this while calling putin "putler" without getting the sheer contradictions of all this.

Now I'm not saying this because of some vatnik allegiance to the russians, I'm just pointing out how the near absolute control of the zeitgest by tech corps means public opinion can be shifted 180° at the drop of a hat, and as such if these paid-for protesters and useful idiots start getting uppity they will get decimated not unlike capitol rioters were. This later group got ratted out to cops by their own family members. Consider that the NKVD in stalin's time had to torture people to get them to do that, but normies now will do it FOR FREE because twitter told them and it gives them internet points.


CheapMeds said:


> They might be, I thought they were just shooting to make something as iconic as the nuclear disarmament peace symbol. However unlike hippies they make no pretense that they are a more aggressive and desperate movement


There's no desperation, a nigerian whose entire village was razed by shell is desperate, these are comfy upper middle class diletantes with too much free time and not enough rubber bullets to the face.


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## CheapMeds (Dec 17, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> There's no desperation, a nigerian whose entire village was razed by shell is desperate, these are comfy upper middle class diletantes with too much free time and not enough rubber bullets to the face.


But the point is that their message is that the ecological issue is as bad as being a "nigerian whose entire village was razed by shell" to be more politically effective weather that is overexaggerated or not.


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## Viscious Seviper (Dec 17, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Something I’ve been thinking a lot lately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nigger you don't even have to go that far. Look at the Industry wide Coup they threw in 2013 and how video games have been almost exclusively dogshit across the board since then. after they kicked out all the talent and exclusively hire their friends now. The nepotism is off the charts.

Hell they still Harass Marty O'Donnell to this day.


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## Shadfan666xxx000 (Dec 17, 2022)

Viscious Seviper said:


> Nigger you don't even have to go that far. Look at the Industry wide Coup they threw in 2013 and how video games have been almost exclusively dogshit across the board since then. after they kicked out all the talent and exclusively hire their friends now. The nepotism is off the charts.


How the hell did that happen anyway? It's like a switch just turned all the 2000s edgelords into something else.


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## blur (Dec 17, 2022)

CheapMeds said:


> Something I’ve been thinking a lot lately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because the ecology movements have failed to construct a meta-narrative and since so much of the ideas are dependent upon Christian moral presuppositions it would be more accurate to consider ecoism a form of popular heresy like gnosticism. They even have their own Valentius figures within the various sects of christianity.  As a religion in formation they would probably have a more fertile ground in the ancient faiths, the only modern one of note being hinduism. 

I would not predict success for _ecoism_ as a set of global religious values because it visibly exasperates the negative conditions of everyone, especially desperate people willing to make drastic changes to their value system. If it does gain currency it will be due to a top down implementation of the ideology rather than an organic (irony intended) formation. 


CheapMeds said:


> If global environmental degradation does spiral to a point that modern society becomes too chaotic, they might acquire enough ammunition to create a strong archetypal religious meta-narrative.
> *It might go something like us destroying our “garden of Eden” through our “industrial sins” for which we’ll need to repent by subjugating ourselves to an ascetic way of life and planting trees.*
> 
> Because of these archetypal similarities I think the memes might even greatly reshape the current state of Christianity. The memes just need to be framed in a way that goes something like "the last half millennia society has ate the fruit of forbidden knowledge (science)" or that "society has made a Faustian bargain with science and now has lost it’s soul (nature)".


Christianity is going to undergo some massive changes. I think your prediction of the ecological tenants being emphasized is correct. I also think there will be a growing focus upon gratitude towards the past and the efforts of others (similar to Confucianism), along with an implementation of ideals through technological means. 

As skin suits proliferate value systems will be tested against reality in ways never before possible and technology will increasingly be used to abide by a system rather than merely come into glancing contact with it. 

_Skin Suit_

_ A person whose life is completely surveilled or manipulated by the society around him as opposed to a governing body. This person acts as a curator or as a second order content producer/consumer. _
_An emergent social technology used for experimentation, entertainment, or exploration. _
_An extrema of review consumption is to extend into all aspects of lifestyle and thus full spectrum surveillance of reviewer/curator._
_Anew means of social system dialogue that in the modern era began with reality TV and is still growing its consumer attention dominance in the form of parasocial relationships._
_A natural result of digital versions of __the third place__. _



CheapMeds said:


> It might not seem like that through an American lens, but the US alliance between industrialists and Christians has really only been an alliance of convince and lip-service where one has supplied jobs for the other. It didn’t take that long for Pope to get buck-broken by the LGBTQ agenda, so I can see Gaia worshipers taking over next once the trannies die off from lack of medical care.
> 
> However, speaking of Gaia, Gaia-centric thinking is very matriarchal. It might be a compatibility issue with other Abrahamic religions. However, modernity is becoming aggressively matriarchal.
> 
> ...


I agree there will eventually be a huge shift in religious values, but I doubt _any_ current system of thought or philosophy will exist beyond that point. Postmodernism and its dependents are too unstable to create anything of permanence and no modern philosophy is able to create convincing arguments to questions that its own assumptions give rise to.

Should there be a change in religious views, it will be proceeded by a dramatic break from all the modern soul's presuppositions. The thought process of the new man will be utterly alien to us. The changes in technology and the tectonic shifting in attitudes towards its development point to this. Maybe the future man will have more in common with a Thomastic monk than a university professor. 

I think we are in for a wild ride shortly as completely new value systems wash over the mainstream and views that are common now are suddenly wiped out.  The LGBT narratives are proof that fundamental values can change virtually over night. In reference to the unmoored man: "they take up whatever is fashionable." 

As the elite continue to fracture and divide in their ongoing power struggles things are going to get weird. Very weird.


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## Lemmingwiser (Dec 17, 2022)

cybertoaster said:


> Those rebellions were 100% manufactured by the dept. of state, alphabet agencies and their loyal lapdogs in tech.


I agree, but that it still mobilised people. Every revolt in history  is manufactured by some group.


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## ♂CANAM productions♂ (Dec 18, 2022)

The Internet Dick said:


> As an aside, I should point out your line about 'watching the world burn' is a bit of a misnomer given you and probably everyone you know will be burning painfully and horrifically along with it, not leisurely sipping frou-frou boat drinks from the veranda.


Some men (and a few women) thrive in chaotic times.


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## The Internet Dick (Dec 19, 2022)

♂CANAM productions♂ said:


> Some men (and a few women) thrive in chaotic times.


We'd all like to think we'd be Lords of the Wasteland, but the reality of it would likely play out a bit differently. North Korea had a terrible famine a few decades ago and the starving masses were reportedly reduced to stripping and eating the bark of trees and cannibalizing their own children. More recently, Venezuelans were eating family pets until they nearly depopulated the dog and cat population of that country while Maduro was filmed lovingly kissing a bar of gold while partying with his cronies.

I don't think most Westerners truly understand how bad _bad _can get. If by _thrive _you mean not horribly die right away, then sure, okay: _thrive_.


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## bird.up (Dec 19, 2022)

stop overplaying extinction rebellion: their goals are wishywashy and their ranks are full of cookiecutter activists who preach nonviolence and swarm to anything aimless enough


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## Irrational Exuberance (Dec 19, 2022)

It's not letting me quote @blur, but I'd just like to expound on what they said by saying that the _most likely_ origin of the Antichrist is going to be from a man-made "virgin birth" that can thereafter be endorsed as a leader of the world - a world that at that point would be quite desperate for something and someone to follow _at any cost._


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## ♂CANAM productions♂ (Dec 19, 2022)

The Internet Dick said:


> We'd all like to think we'd be Lords of the Wasteland, but the reality of it would likely play out a bit differently. North Korea had a terrible famine a few decades ago and the starving masses were reportedly reduced to stripping and eating the bark of trees and cannibalizing their own children. More recently, Venezuelans were eating family pets until they nearly depopulated the dog and cat population of that country while Maduro was filmed lovingly kissing a bar of gold while partying with his cronies.
> 
> I don't think most Westerners truly understand how bad _bad _can get. If by _thrive _you mean not horribly die right away, then sure, okay: _thrive_.


I mean, I'm pretty sure most of us will die. That's a given. I wonder if sometimes people crave disruption to their lives since they're plain bored/tired of a boring life.
One should be thankful to live in uninteresting times.


> We'd all like to think we'd be Lords of the Wasteland,


I just want to be Lord of the local Lockeroom.


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## Irrational Exuberance (Dec 19, 2022)

♂CANAM productions♂ said:


> I mean, I'm pretty sure most of us will die. That's a given. I wonder if sometimes people crave disruption to their lives since they're plain bored/tired of a boring life.
> One should be thankful to live in uninteresting times.


"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation. From the desperate city you go into the desperate country, and have to console yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats. A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under what are called the games and amusements of mankind. There is no play in them, for this comes after work. But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things."

--Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience and Other Essays.


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## jje100010001 (Jan 1, 2023)

Interesting dooming here, going back to peak oil and the overall energy limits of the modern world:



> The economy is moving from a tailwind pushing it along to a headwind holding it back​Posted on December 16, 2022 by Gail Tverberg
> 
> _The problem is hitting limits in the extraction of fossil fuels
> _
> We know that historically, many economies around the world have collapsed. We also know that there is a physics reason why this happens. *Growing economies require a growing supply of energy to keep up with a growing population. At some point, the energy supply and other resource needs cannot grow rapidly enough to keep up with population growth. When this happens, economies tend to collapse.*





> In their book_ Secular Cycles_, researchers Peter Turchin and Sergey Nefedov found that economies tend go through four distinct phases in each cycle, with each stage lasting for quite a few years:
> 
> Growth
> Stagflation
> ...





> In this post, I show evidence that the economy is reaching energy limits. In the last section, I explain how my view differs from the standard narrative, which says that there is almost an unlimited amount of fossil fuels available to burn, if we choose to utilize these fossil fuels. According to this view, humans can prevent climate change by voluntarily moving away from fossil fuels.
> 
> *The standard narrative proposes a reasonable plan for citizens of parts of the world without adequate fossil fuels (cut back on buying fossil fuels), but without telling citizens what the real problem is. The standard narrative also gives the impression that there is a near-term clean energy alternative. In my opinion, this is wishful thinking for the reasons I describe in Sections [6] and [7]. Section [2] also sheds light on the reasonableness of moving to renewable energy.*


[...]


> In my opinion, our primary energy concern should be food production and transport. Diesel, made from oil, is the major fuel for agriculture. It will be decades before farming machinery and transport of food can be changed over to electricity, assuming this can be done at all. Until this happens, electricity’s role in getting food to the shelves of grocery stores will be limited.
> 
> Solar energy comes primarily in the summer but, unfortunately, in many places, the big need for heat energy is in the winter. People in Europe, with their many wind turbines and solar panels, are worried about possibly freezing in the dark this winter if natural gas supplies prove inadequate. We don’t have batteries for storing solar or wind energy for months on end, so they cannot be counted on for winter heat.





> Wind and solar are made and transported using fossil fuels. They cannot last any longer than today’s fossil fuel industry. In fact, roads and transmission lines require fossil fuels to continue.* The whole system is likely to go down at approximately the same time.
> 
> It seems to me that the main reason why we hear so much about intermittent wind and solar is because there needs to be a hopeful narrative for politicians to provide to voters, and for educators to provide to students. Otherwise, the situation shown on Figure 9 looks grim. The fact that fossil fuel prices have been spiking in 2022 and regulators are trying to get these prices back down again is testimony to the fact that we are running short of cheap-to-produce fossil fuel energy.*





> *[7] The incorrect narrative provided by mainstream media (MSM) is that climate change is our worst problem. To lessen this problem, citizens need to move quickly away from fossil fuels and transition to renewables. The real narrative is that we are running short of fossil fuels that can be profitably extracted, and renewables are not adequate substitutes. However, this narrative is too worrisome for most people to handle.*





> I expect most readers will say, _your view can’t be right_. _We don’t read this story in the news._ All we hear about is climate change and the need to reduce fossil fuel usage to prevent climate change.
> 
> *In many ways, the narrative presented by MSM is less frightening to the public than a narrative in which fuels are already being stretched too thin. The MSM narrative sounds like a situation that we can perhaps live with and work around. It sounds like careers that people study for today will be useful in the future. It also sounds like homes, cars and factories built today will be useful in the future.*





> One major difference in the MSM view, relative to my view, is with respect to the amounts of fossil fuels that can be extracted. The standard narrative says we will extract all the fossil fuels that we have the technology to extract unless we make a concerted effort not to extract these fuels. For this to happen, _demand_ (a favorite word of economists) must keep rising to keep prices high enough for businesses to want to continue extraction from fields plagued by depletion.
> 
> History shows that when an economy approaches limits, what tends to happen is that _demand tends to fall too low_. This happens because the physics of the way the economy works: Wage and wealth disparities tend to spike as energy resources are increasingly stretched thin. In fact, the great wealth of the top 1%, relative to that of the remaining 99%, is a major problem in the world today. When increasing wage and wealth disparity occurs, a growing number of poor workers find themselves with inadequate wages to buy food, homes, cars and other goods made with commodities, including oil.











						We are already at fossil fuel limits; the popular narrative hides this
					

This post is an overview post, explaining how the real world fossil fuel energy can be far too low for rising population, but the popular narrative can be limited to the need to cut back fossil fuel use, to prevent climate change. The post includes reasons why a transition to wind and solar...




					ourfiniteworld.com
				








_Annual energy consumption per head (megajoules) in England and Wales 1561-70 to 1850-9 and in Italy 1861-70. _

From the post, an interesting implication of a collapse considering the amount of energy needed to enter the Industrial Revolution- many of these historical deposits are now depleted- in the case of a total collapse, would the Industrial Revolution need to be restarted elsewhere in the world?

Likewise, if even reaching lower-energy deposits requires other inputs of higher-energy inputs (i.e. petroleum used in the operation of a coal mine), would many energy sources be out of the reach of a majority of the world, perhaps only accessible through massive human labor and sacrifice, like in the cobalt pits of Central Africa?


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## CheapMeds (Jan 4, 2023)

Suddenly I'm very appreciative to be living where there are long cold snowy winters.


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## CheapMeds (Monday at 2:29 PM)

Just an interesting hub of different doomer rabbit holes that I came across.
Though the order of these can be argued about.


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