# USA should bring back slavery



## ICametoLurk (Jul 4, 2019)

Any reason not to? I mean, it only sucks if you are the slave.


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## Boxy Brown (Jul 4, 2019)

let's try white slaves this time


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## NIGGO KILLA (Jul 4, 2019)

Black people are people too


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## ICametoLurk (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxy Brown said:


> let's try white slaves this time


Call it tit for tat


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## MediocreMilt (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxy Brown said:


> let's try white slaves this time


You mean the Irish?


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## ICametoLurk (Jul 4, 2019)

NIGGO KILLA said:


> Black people are people too


Where did I say Black People?


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## Lone MacReady (Jul 4, 2019)

Bringing them in was like bringing Barbarians through Rome's gates...  suicidal.  Better to set them all free back in Africa, it's what's best for everyone really. Wakanda has a rich and proud culture.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 4, 2019)

They already did, no one seemed to notice


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## UA 674 (Jul 4, 2019)

I say make all the homeless and otherwise work incapable do all the work, they'll get in shape and they'll have to get fed to work. Problem solved.


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## ProgKing of the North (Jul 4, 2019)

We already outsource all our work to Chinese slaves, might as well let them do it over here too

Also this should somehow end up with me getting a big tiddy anime girlfriend


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## MG 620 (Jul 4, 2019)

It's the only way Trump'll beat the damn Chinese. Play by their rules.


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## Star Stuff (Jul 4, 2019)

Oh cool. Yeah. Let's make my fetish happen, bois.


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## A shitty ass clover (Jul 4, 2019)

slavery work to pay debts will be the next thing in 150 years guaranteed.


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## Lemmingwise (Jul 4, 2019)

ICametoLurk said:


> Call it tit for tat



Ha take that blackie. Who's the cracker, now?


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## Dom Cruise (Jul 4, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> We already outsource all our work to Chinese slaves, might as well let them do it over here too
> 
> Also this should somehow end up with me getting a big tiddy anime girlfriend



The sad irony is the modern sweatshop system is even _worse_ than slavery.

When you're a slave your food, clothing and shelter has to come out of your owner's pocket and it's in your owner's interest to keep you relatively healthy, but if you're a sweatshop worker you are paid literally pennies and how you survive on that is all on you to figure out. Drop dead? no biggie, there's more workers lined up behind you, there's literally zero incentive for a corporation to care about your well being when you're not property.

So here we are in the 21st century reaping the benefits of a system even worse than slavery while hypocritically acting like slavery in the 1800s was the worst thing that ever happened to anyone.

I mean don't get me wrong, slavery wasn't exactly a good time, but a saner society would not be so utterly obsessed with it and more focused on what's going on _now_ than what happened 150 years ago.


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## Anonymous For This (Jul 4, 2019)

Lone MacReady said:


> Bringing them in was like bringing Barbarians through Rome's gates...  suicidal.  Better to set them all free back in Africa, it's what's best for everyone really. Wakanda has a rich and proud culture.
> 
> View attachment 827948



That's the thing about Africans.  They're either the kindest and most charitable of people or the absolute scum of the Earth willing to scam grandmas out of their social security.  There's no in between.


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## ICametoLurk (Jul 4, 2019)

Dom Cruise said:


> The sad irony is the modern sweatshop system is even _worse_ than slavery.
> 
> When you're a slave your food, clothing and shelter has to come out of your owner's pocket and it's in your owner's interest to keep you relatively healthy, but if you're a sweatshop worker you are paid literally pennies and how you survive on that is all on you to figure out. Drop dead? no biggie, there's more workers lined up behind you, there's literally zero incentive for a corporation to care about your well being when you're not property.
> 
> ...


That's actually why Slavery has always been abolished though. Slavery came to an end in the Roman Empire because it was better to have some German die in mines for some coins, the Union wanted people to work in factories for cheap, Saudi Arabia and etc got rid of slavery so they could have "servants" that they actually treat worse than slaves.


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## Libtard-Wrecking Krogoth (Jul 4, 2019)

when america inevitably becomes communist (because the Left is always on the Right Side Of History) then we can all be slaves equally


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## The best and greatest (Jul 4, 2019)

A shitty ass clover said:


> slavery work to pay debts will be the next thing in 150 years guaranteed.


Optimistic. Human labor will be redundant in 150 years. Why bother with human slaves when you can just kill them all and have more Earth for you and yours?


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## Dom Cruise (Jul 4, 2019)

ICametoLurk said:


> That's actually why Slavery has always been abolished though. Slavery came to an end in the Roman Empire because it was better to have some German die in mines for some coins, the Union wanted people to work in factories for cheap, Saudi Arabia and etc got rid of slavery so they could have "servants" that they actually treat worse than slaves.



The one benefit is that you don't _have_ to work if you're not a slave and can't be literally beaten into submission, but when your only alternative is often starvation, it's a raw deal.

It's a shitty catch 22 and there's no easy answer, to have civilization you simply need back breaking labor, it's always been this way, whether you're building the pyramids or iphones.

My main beef is the hypocrisy of the modern left going on and on about the evils of slavery while still gladly buying their Nike shoes and iphones because of corporate virtue signaling.


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## Fish-Eyed Fool (Jul 4, 2019)

>free food.
>free place to stay.
>mandatory wife provided.
>my lineage having the right to bitch and whine about being slaves for the next 200 years until they're the ones holding the whip.

Sure, why not.  Sign me up.


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## The best and greatest (Jul 4, 2019)

Dom Cruise said:


> The one benefit is that you don't _have_ to work if you're not a slave and can't be literally beaten into submission, but when your only alternative is often starvation, it's a raw deal.


You and your children are also not legally recognized as a mere extension of someone else's person hood and can't be sold at whim to someone else.


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## millais (Jul 4, 2019)

The slavery practiced by the bigtime Southern planters was already struggling to stay profitable due to the introduction of cheap unskilled immigrant labor in non-agrarian industries and the advent of the cotton gin. And that was with the benefit of vertical integration and economies of scale inherent to the big plantations. For the smaller slaveholders (ie 1-2 slaves), they got pushed from both ends by the general economic pressures on one hand and the profit-cutting competition of the big plantations on the other hand.


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## Sexy Senior Citizen (Jul 4, 2019)

A shitty ass clover said:


> slavery work to pay debts will be the next thing in 150 years guaranteed.


So, debtor's prison and indentured servitude, then?


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## Marco Fucko (Jul 4, 2019)

Bring back slavery aesthetically but instead of black people it's robots with ebonics soundtracks installed.


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## I Love Beef (Jul 4, 2019)

Hell, why not bring back the Viking thrall system again? We can even do shit like raid people and take away their freedoms, sell them for money, and for shits and giggles, sacrifice them to Odin and the Aesir every funeral! It will be great! 

On the other hand, this is how Phantasy Star Universe got started.....


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## Lemmingwise (Jul 4, 2019)

Sexy Senior Citizen said:


> So, debtor's prison and indentured servitude, then?



I mean, every US citizen is practically born with about $65,225 of debt considering the US government debts, so in some sense that is already true.

It's a bit tough to do conversions to worth to previous times, but a slave could buy their freedom (if accepted) for about $800 in 1860, which is about $21,000 in todays money.

You're born enslaved three times over compared to slaves in 1860.

(if you wanted to buy someone in 2014 it's supposedly between $400 and $40000 depending on age and location. With exception of India and mozambique, where a girl child costs 24 dollar and 2 dollar respectively)
http://archive.md/M3iUo


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## special need's H20 (Jul 5, 2019)

sure but only enslave people who racked up more than a thousand tweets.


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## Marco Fucko (Jul 5, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> (if you wanted to buy someone in 2014 it's supposedly between $400 and $40000 depending on age and location. With exception of India and mozambique, where a girl child costs 24 dollar and 2 dollar respectively)
> http://archive.md/M3iUo



You mean I can make $40k just by kidnapping some bitch? Why the fuck am I working?

EDIT: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I'm flyin' to Romania!


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## Arcturus (Jul 5, 2019)

Marco Fucko said:


> Bring back slavery aesthetically but instead of black people it's robots with ebonics soundtracks installed.








And it tells jokes.


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## Eryngium (Jul 5, 2019)

Marco Fucko said:


> Bring back slavery aesthetically but instead of black people it's robots with ebonics soundtracks installed.


inb4 robots demand the goverment gib reparations.


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## Vorhtbame (Jul 5, 2019)

Why do you think there's a push to open the borders wide?  We'll get a massive influx of people who'll work all day for a pack of peanuts and sleep fifteen to an apartment, _plus_ wages will be so depressed the rest of us will have to do the same.

It's like a two-fer deal.


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## Crippled_Retard (Jul 5, 2019)

Who on this website doesn't want to see young, sweaty, well-built black men working hard in very little clothing?


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jul 5, 2019)

'Tis called mass incarceration and prison labour.


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## Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost (Jul 5, 2019)

So lets take an honest look at modern slavery. 

Despite the dire conditions of the developing world in terms of sweat shops and the literal lack of value to the individual human life, I do not consider those a form of slavery rather than an oppression of labor. 

The simple fact if it is, is that if you didn't want the exploitative systems of labor to exist in these developing countries, then it would require hard decision which I'm not sure the average first world citizens would be prepared to make, even though in the long term it would benefit them. (Support of local industries, local jobs without the leftists or wing nut unions involvements, and being willing to pay a higher price for that T-shirt.) 

That is the eradication of cheap industrial goods that are produced by that labor. There is a reason that sweat shops exist. They fuel the local economy and allow the interchange of wealth from the developed world to the undeveloped world. Unfortunately the person on the very bottom wrung of this ladder, does not see a vast amount of that wealth redistribution, and consider how many 3rd world bosses are the very epitome of avarice, they are not likely going to see grand improvements, but now they are in the system there is no place for them outside it. 

They could return to subsistence farming. (Guaranteed poverty without knowledge of better farming practices.) but a lot of them have been removed from the land now for so long, that returning them to agrarian practice wouldn't work. (Cambodia under Pol Pot tried this. It was massively unsuccessful, as the mountains of human skull will attest to.) 

In much the same way the industrial revolution in the west took subsistence farmers and brought them into the factories and generally out of poverty. (Despite the appalling conditions, a lot of families were able to make it.) And lead to the development of prosperity, land, and wealth that the west had only managed to destroy through two costly world wars, and several different political upsets. (The irony being, that the WWI & part of II were the creation of factory output never before seen in the scale of private industry, and actually empowered the working class enough that they created the back bone for the labor movement.) 

That said it took a lot of time, ingenuity and human misery to create the situation of industrial wealth and prosperity that had reached its peak in the late 60's from there, a lot of the actual industrialized world changed from a mass exporter to mass importer and service industries and finances became the key economic sectors not industrial output, which is for the most part turned over to the developing world. 

Now with the out of the way, where do many instances of modern slavery exist? 

Well mainly in Africa and the Arab world in open. While it is illegal to own slaves in Saud, these so called "Servants" that exist are basically legal slaves in this regard. Amongst western countries the greatest cases of modern slavery occur in migrant populations. (Indians and Pakistani's are especially self predatory, as well as the Chinese.) Or in the sex trafficking trade, which ironically is mainly a white on white endeavor and is Eastern Europeans being used as brothel labor in the West. (Way to go Schengen zone.) 

None of these contribute to the economy in a meaningful way. The guy who is working in a cheap labor job and living ten to a house is often either illegal or does not have right to abode, and therefore is not able to work in a legal capacity anyways, but instead works for this modern slave owner who is usually a landlord as well as employer. 

They cover their illegal labor, by not only paying them under the market rates for labor, but as well crowding them into what are essentially flop houses and charging them rental rates which is usually taken out of their pay, so their already paltry fee is essentially reduced. 

What money they do have, they usually send home, though even in some of these cases the boss acts as a banker, because the employee can't get a bank account, so again it's rife for abuse. 

Aside from sales taxes on the minimal amount of money, this person will be spending, they're essentially a vampire on the economy, because they are using the infrastructures in place, without paying any meaningful form or tax, and neither is the employer, or not in a way that isn't being fudged, laundered and used to fund sweatshops back home. 

And it doesn't matter if the employees get seized, because with loose border controls, and a toothless police service there is no way for there to ever be a run off of cheap desperate labor that will be predated upon by their countrymen in the guise of doing them a moral good.    

Same rules apply for North America though it's often Mexicans or Somali's or other imports that can get traded out.

And why do people allow it to happen? I think it's partially because it's not actually brought to the fore of everyone's attentions and why would it? The media is sympathetic towards the idea of globalism and economic migrants, and so unless it's a truly tantalizing story they aren't going to write something that contradicts their agreed narratives.

At the same time anyone who tries to point out the fact that they undervalue the market is either labelled as xenophobic or a racist, or anti-capitalist, despite the legitimate business being at a disadvantage because it's following the laws that the country had created, rather than just doing it's own thing.

Finally the major disappointment I find is in the lack of common sense thinking on behalf of the consumers/citizens of the products produced. 

Whether that is cheap clothing, cheap labor, cheap food. Everyone is primed to obsess about some perceived form of deal, versus real world value. And I understand that the counter argument to this is that people need these cheap consumer goods in order to be able to function in these high cost high living standards countries they live in, but it's a lie. 

People devalue their labor markets, flooding the lower and middle tier ends with cheap easily replaceable labor then complain about low and stagnant wages. In places where the industries are already moving towards an automation/technician style labor force. 

They complain about the failure of native industries, yet buy bulk cheap goods from other countries because of a price differential. Despite the fact that the more expensive native brands will last longer and perform better over a longer period of time. 

They complain about affordable housing, social program costs, and failing infrastructure, while allowing their governments, left wing organisations, and major business players to push through waves of hundreds of thousands of people who will become a strain on these services and compete and in most cases outbid the same group of poor people that the programs were originally created to protect.  

They push their children to get semi-useless degrees in colleges and amass large amounts of debt in the process which the degree itself won't likely pay for, while ceding traditional industries to the new immigrant classes who end up becoming so embedded in these industries that they in time come to dominate them and can further push out any native labor.


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## Ягода (Jul 5, 2019)

Dom Cruise said:


> The one benefit is that you don't _have_ to work if you're not a slave and can't be literally beaten into submission, but when your only alternative is often starvation, it's a raw deal.



you do as there is no true ownership anymore. Owning a house in US, you only "own" it as long as you pay taxes and town doesn't take back, same as with everything else, your freedom, your other possessions. You can only keep them if you pay somehow protection money.



Webby's Boyfriend said:


> 'Tis called mass incarceration and prison labour.



Masters worldwide recognize that it's much more profitable to inslave productive members of society, who can actually perform more sophisticated work, create new things. All of them are tagged with numbers, IDs, diplomas. They are NOT free to go, to disappear or free of constantly paying protection money to one master or another. In addition there are emotional chains of guilt and constructs like duty, patriotism etc.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 5, 2019)

Ягода said:


> Masters worldwide recognize that it's much more profitable to inslave productive members of society, who can actually perform more sophisticated work, create new things. All of them are tagged with numbers, IDs, diplomas. They are NOT free to go, to disappear or free of constantly paying protection money to one master or another. In addition there are emotional chains of guilt and constructs like duty, patriotism etc.



The real reason suicide or attempted suicide is considered a crime in most places these days: damaging government property has always been a crime, the definition of "government property" just expanded.

If you are in debt (some more than others, but most everyone is by now when you look at the details) you have had a value ascribed to your life and your labor.  Someone's figured out what you're worth to your betters and they've got a plan to wring as much out of you as possible.  You are another animal on their farm, there to have resources extracted from you.  You will be fed a steady diet of junk news, commercials, and other misinfo to keep you as stupid as possible and as productive as possible.  Your "elected representatives" are there to make you think your concerns are being heard and addressed, your police are there to make you think you're being protected, but it is all an illusion.  The representatives do not serve you, they serve whoever cuts them the biggest checks - and that isn't you.  The police have no duty whatsoever to protect you, they're there to make sure you don't become terribly inconvenient for your betters' plans.  You are free only to mill about in your designated pen, to consume your designated media, to indulge in whatever designated vices are allowed to you, and even if you break out of your pen where will you go? To what corner of the earth will you flee? Where can you possibly hope to escape the eyes of countries with networks of satellites capable of reading license plates from low earth orbit? Where can you possibly hope to go that none of these countries' bullyboys can't find you and bring you to heel? You can flee from one pen to another, a new pen with new rules and new masters, but you will never be free.  Your predecessors traded that away for comfort, and got what they deserved.


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## Ягода (Jul 5, 2019)

Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost said:


> People devalue their labor markets, flooding the lower and middle tier ends with cheap easily replaceable labor then complain about low and stagnant wages. In places where the industries are already moving towards an automation/technician style labor force.



You need to separate "they" into groups. There are dumb people, there are people who are trapped by dumb people in the crowd, there are few that actually benefit.

I and my friends never bought cheap Chink tools, but we are drowned in the sea of dumbassery who can't tell cheap shit from quality. Buy once, cry once. Now it's almost impossible to fnd good quality tools as most brands succumb to the trend of cost cutting and temporary gain for the bottom line.

Same is with labor, who was the biggest advocate that we need to expand HB1 visas to bring in lower labor. Sure as fuck it wasn't US labor, it was bigger businesses with enough lobby power to get this shit happen.

You don't have too many people, peons, who can look far enough into the future and make long term decisions. Population is getting dumber and ways to manipulate them are made more efficient. It's slavery in all but name.


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## Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost (Jul 5, 2019)

Ягода said:


> You need to separate "they" into groups. There are dumb people, there are people who are trapped by dumb people in the crowd, there are few that actually benefit.
> 
> I and my friends never bought cheap Chink tools, but we are drowned in the sea of dumbassery who can't tell cheap shit from quality. Buy once, cry once. Now it's almost impossible to fnd good quality tools as most brands succumb to the trend of cost cutting and temporary gain for the bottom line.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I mentioned big business, and didn't make a distinction. I genuinely feel for the average middle class tradesman in the US, mainly because it's your working middle classes that are the civic lifeblood of the nation. Not the wealthy and not the poor. Cheap labor has really hit them hard, especially in most of the border states, and yeah finding quality tool crafts is difficult. It's the same for parts of Europe where the industry was gutted.


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## Vitoze (Jul 5, 2019)

The importation of African slaves was one of the first of many bad decisions made on the North American continent, followed by allowing people to vote in the first place, letting more and more people vote, and letting the country be ruled by Episcopalians instead of the Lutheran Church.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 8, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> The real reason suicide or attempted suicide is considered a crime in most places these days: damaging government property has always been a crime, the definition of "government property" just expanded.


While the rest of this is your usual doomer screed, suicide and attempted suicide are considered crimes in most places because otherwise the police would not be able to enter the house of a suicidal person to attempt a wellness check.  As far as I am aware, "attempted suicide" has not been tried as a crime in the US save in extreme fringe cases along the lines of enforcing rules regarding not riding your horse backwards down main street.
I'm going to skip past the usual circuitious exchanges and ask you outright: do you believe that the average person has a moral grounds for suicide?


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 8, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> While the rest of this is your usual doomer screed, suicide and attempted suicide are considered crimes in most places because otherwise the police would not be able to enter the house of a suicidal person to attempt a wellness check.  As far as I am aware, "attempted suicide" has not been tried as a crime in the US save in extreme fringe cases along the lines of enforcing rules regarding not riding your horse backwards down main street.
> I'm going to skip past the usual circuitious exchanges and ask you outright: do you believe that the average person has a moral grounds for suicide?


It's their body, they can do whatever they damn well like with it as long as it doesn't involve someone else being hurt.  Morality of it be damned, self-ownership trumps morality here.


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## Sīn the Moon Daddy (Jul 8, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> The real reason suicide or attempted suicide is considered a crime in most places these days: damaging government property has always been a crime, the definition of "government property" just expanded.
> 
> If you are in debt (some more than others, but most everyone is by now when you look at the details) you have had a value ascribed to your life and your labor.  Someone's figured out what you're worth to your betters and they've got a plan to wring as much out of you as possible.  You are another animal on their farm, there to have resources extracted from you.  You will be fed a steady diet of junk news, commercials, and other misinfo to keep you as stupid as possible and as productive as possible.  Your "elected representatives" are there to make you think your concerns are being heard and addressed, your police are there to make you think you're being protected, but it is all an illusion.  The representatives do not serve you, they serve whoever cuts them the biggest checks - and that isn't you.  The police have no duty whatsoever to protect you, they're there to make sure you don't become terribly inconvenient for your betters' plans.  You are free only to mill about in your designated pen, to consume your designated media, to indulge in whatever designated vices are allowed to you, and even if you break out of your pen where will you go? To what corner of the earth will you flee? Where can you possibly hope to escape the eyes of countries with networks of satellites capable of reading license plates from low earth orbit? Where can you possibly hope to go that none of these countries' bullyboys can't find you and bring you to heel? You can flee from one pen to another, a new pen with new rules and new masters, but you will never be free.  Your predecessors traded that away for comfort, and got what they deserved.



"What do people see in Marxism?"

When the devil you know is this horrible sometimes rolling the dice on a new one seems logical. I know that you disagree, and years later now my own opinion has changed. But it was an attempt to break their control. 

That being said, if SocJus had never been hybridized with Socialism they would still be going full speed ahead with it.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 8, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> It's their body, they can do whatever they damn well like with it as long as it doesn't involve someone else being hurt.  Morality of it be damned, self-ownership trumps morality here.


1. You haven't escaped morality by asserting that freedom trumps normal mores: you've just asserted that you judge something being moral based on whether it's a free act.
2. So you disagree with age-of-consent laws?  After all, it's their body.
3.  If someone wants to blow their brains out in front of their children after shouting "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT", you have no problems with that?


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## Recoil (Jul 8, 2019)

Kiomei said:


> I say make all the homeless and otherwise work incapable do all the work, they'll get in shape and they'll have to get fed to work. Problem solved.


The real solution is to feed the homeless _to_ the hungry. Boom, 2 problems solved at once.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 8, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> 1. You haven't escaped morality by asserting that freedom trumps normal mores: you've just asserted that you judge something being moral based on whether it's a free act.
> 2. So you disagree with age-of-consent laws?  After all, it's their body.
> 3.  If someone wants to blow their brains out in front of their children after shouting "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT", you have no problems with that?


1. The moment your morality interferes with my personal autonomy, you can hang your morality.  Period.
2. Children cannot give informed consent.  Neither can some adults.  Exceptions to children being unable to do this are vanishingly rare, and due to adult-to-child power dynamics would be extraordinarily difficult to even establish.  Children are wards of their parents or guardians and said parents/guardians have a duty to protect and care for the child until an agreed-upon age of majority.  After majority is reached and assuming the now-adult is not suffering from such severe mental defect that continued wardship could be reasonably justified, they are their own person and no one should be allowed to curtail their autonomy unless it is being used to harm another in a quantifiable fashion.
3. Shitty thing to do, to be sure.  Give the kids counseling.  Chances are that household was already a hotbed of psychological abuse, and unsurprisingly no one gave a fuck until it came down to someone putting a gun barrel in their mouth.  You want to avoid that kind of situation? Start giving a fuck before it comes to a head, if you care so damn much.


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## GethN7 (Jul 9, 2019)

It's worth noting slavery is still legal in the US, but only as a punishment for a crime which one has been duly convicted, which seems eminently fair. It gives them another way to pay the debt they owe society, and since they are already in bondage due to their imprisonment, logical.

However, true chattel slavery coming back is somewhere to left of inane and idiotic to me on legal, moral, ethical, and even economic grounds in this day and age.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> 1. You haven't escaped morality by asserting that freedom trumps normal mores: you've just asserted that you judge something being moral based on whether it's a free act.
> 2. So you disagree with age-of-consent laws?  After all, it's their body.
> 3.  If someone wants to blow their brains out in front of their children after shouting "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT", you have no problems with that?


Why do you do this? I see you make quality arguments sometimes, but other times it's this stupid gotcha bullshit where you try to put words in people's mouths until they give up on the conversation in frustration.  Especially and specifically @Sprig of Parsley . I don't know if you've noticed the pattern, but it's very much there.

Back on topic, only if the OP is the only slave, then sure.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> Why do you do this? I see you make quality arguments sometimes, but other times it's this stupid gotcha bullshit where you try to put words in people's mouths until they give up on the conversation in frustration.  Especially and specifically @Sprig of Parsley . I don't know if you've noticed the pattern, but it's very much there.
> 
> Back on topic, only if the OP is the only slave, then sure.


I'm not "putting words in his mouth", I'm trying to sound out his reasoning.  Extreme examples work the best for this.




Sprig of Parsley said:


> 1. The moment your morality interferes with my personal autonomy, you can hang your morality.  Period.
> 2. Children cannot give informed consent.  Neither can some adults.  Exceptions to children being unable to do this are vanishingly rare, and due to adult-to-child power dynamics would be extraordinarily difficult to even establish.  Children are wards of their parents or guardians and said parents/guardians have a duty to protect and care for the child until an agreed-upon age of majority.  After majority is reached and assuming the now-adult is not suffering from such severe mental defect that continued wardship could be reasonably justified, they are their own person and no one should be allowed to curtail their autonomy unless it is being used to harm another in a quantifiable fashion.
> 3. Shitty thing to do, to be sure.  Give the kids counseling.  Chances are that household was already a hotbed of psychological abuse, and unsurprisingly no one gave a fuck until it came down to someone putting a gun barrel in their mouth.  You want to avoid that kind of situation? Start giving a fuck before it comes to a head, if you care so damn much.


1. I'm trying to understand how you're thinking, but it doesn't really follow to me: maybe that's because I'm not familiar with Libertarian philosophy.  You argue that radical personal freedom is the highest moral good, yeah?  With the caveat of "provided your actions do not deprive others of their personal freedom".  Let me throw a few questions out there.  Do you think someone should be allowed to:
-Blatantly masturbate in public?
-Blatantly masturbate in front of their own children?
-Blatantly masturbate in front of their own children while saying "you little sluts make me horny?"

Before @Corbin Dallas Multipass jumps in to play internet argument referee, let me clarify _why_ I ask this: killing yourself in front of children is something that is going to scar them for life in a quantifiable fashion.  Masturbating in front of children is also going to scar them for life in a quantifiable fashion.  This may be because I'm missing something here, but I cannot imagine thinking that one of these acts would be permissible while the other would be forbidden.
In addition, do you believe in universal drug legalization, or the legalization of unnecessary surgeries if the patient requests it? (in particular, I'm thinking about those people who want to have a limb amputated or to become a paraplegic deliberately).  Because if I'm following your argument right, that seems to be a pretty major implication.
2. And how were people supposed to know this in the first place?  An omniscient surveillance state?  Arguing that failing to prevent something bad from happening means you have no right to be upset that something bad happened strikes me as... pretty out there, as it seems to be a fully general argument for not caring about any bad thing that ever happens.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> 1. I'm trying to understand how you're thinking, but it doesn't really follow to me: maybe that's because I'm not familiar with Libertarian philosophy.  You argue that radical personal freedom is the highest moral good, yeah?  With the caveat of "provided your actions do not deprive others of their personal freedom".  Let me throw a few questions out there.  Do you think someone should be allowed to:
> -Blatantly masturbate in public?
> -Blatantly masturbate in front of their own children?
> -Blatantly masturbate in front of their own children while saying "you little sluts make me horny?"


You added "blatantly" so I'm assuming you mean the creep that drops trou and strokes it in front of a crowd as opposed to the guy who goes off to a quiet corner where he thinks there's no one around to handle himself.  Intent matters here.  He intends to make you party to something you want nothing to do with, that's why that breed of public masturbator tends to move on to full-fledged assault before long.  Involving kids is probably a violation of the whole "parent" thing I mentioned earlier, and it's probably being done for the same reason as the public masturbator mentioned ("blatant" being the differentiator - if some guy's kids walk into daddy's room and see him whacking it to old Jenna Jameson or whatever, he hasn't done anything wrong other than forget to lock his door).  The last mentioned scenario pretty much just makes the intent absolutely unambiguous.



Senior Lexmechanic said:


> Before @Corbin Dallas Multipass jumps in to play internet argument referee, let me clarify _why_ I ask this: killing yourself in front of children is something that is going to scar them for life in a quantifiable fashion.  Masturbating in front of children is also going to scar them for life in a quantifiable fashion.  This may be because I'm missing something here, but I cannot imagine thinking that one of these acts would be permissible while the other would be forbidden.



It's permissible pretty much solely because trying to take a gun out of a suicidal person's hands is about the dumbest fucking thing you can do anyway.  If you can't talk them down, you might as well brace yourself.  And what are you going to do, prosecute a dead person? Like I said, you cared so damn much about that situation that you let it get to the point it did.  Suicides dedicated to captive audiences don't drop out of the clear fucking blue.  You had all kinds of ways to address it without violating autonomy before that point, but it's only when autonomy comes into question that you start to give a fuck.  REALLY MAKES YOU THINK.

 And maybe the kids where you are just aren't made like they used to be made, but seeing someone playing with themselves falls a long way from seeing someone paint the ceiling with their brains.



Senior Lexmechanic said:


> In addition, do you believe in universal drug legalization, or the legalization of unnecessary surgeries if the patient requests it? (in particular, I'm thinking about those people who want to have a limb amputated or to become a paraplegic deliberately).  Because if I'm following your argument right, that seems to be a pretty major implication.


Are they doing it to themselves? Let them.  I'm not interested in saving stupid people from themselves, certainly not at the cost of making serious implications about where personal autonomy stops and starts.  What they're doing is dumb, and they should have every right to do it if they're footing the bills.  If they actively harm another to facilitate these, you nail them for that.



Senior Lexmechanic said:


> 2. And how were people supposed to know this in the first place?  An omniscient surveillance state?  Arguing that failing to prevent something bad from happening means you have no right to be upset that something bad happened strikes me as... pretty out there, as it seems to be a fully general argument for not caring about any bad thing that ever happens.



Yeah because warning signs NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN EVER and there's no such thing as a community interest.  A few might slip through the cracks, but social pressure is a powerful thing. 

And the funny thing is, no one TRULY cares about any bad thing that ever happens to begin with until it hits them or threatens to hit them somehow.  Sure, they'll piss and moan about it in public venues (Did you hear about what Bob did? How awful!) but it's not out of heartfelt concern for Bob or whoever Bob hurt, 99.9 percent of the time.  If there's concern, it's predicated on "Bob might hurt ME next!".  So we'd be going from a bunch of people who don't care but pretend we do, to a bunch of people who are honest with themselves, in your posited scenario.  I'll take sincere assholes over phony assholes.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> You added "blatantly" so I'm assuming you mean the creep that drops trou and strokes it in front of a crowd as opposed to the guy who goes off to a quiet corner where he thinks there's no one around to handle himself.  Intent matters here.  He intends to make you party to something you want nothing to do with, that's why that breed of public masturbator tends to move on to full-fledged assault before long.  Involving kids is probably a violation of the whole "parent" thing I mentioned earlier, and it's probably being done for the same reason as the public masturbator mentioned ("blatant" being the differentiator - if some guy's kids walk into daddy's room and see him whacking it to old Jenna Jameson or whatever, he hasn't done anything wrong other than forget to lock his door).  The last mentioned scenario pretty much just makes the intent absolutely unambiguous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. The person masturbating in public is making you party in something you want nothing to do with.  A public suicide is making you party in something you want nothing to do with.  The person masturbating in front of children is making them party to something they want nothing to do with.  The suicide shooting his brains out in front of children is making them party to something they want nothing to do with.  And, since you mentioned "intent matters": someone who shouts "THIS IS YOUR FAULT!" at someone before offing themselves has a pretty explicit goal of causing extreme trauma and guilt to another.
2. Alright, let me make this clear: domestic violence, child abuse, and depression are all serious issues that should be better addressed.  The latter, for me, is also a personal issue.  The fact that you act like it isn't, and I just don't want people to kill themselves out of virtue signalling or because I'm some kind of sadistic monster (or whatever reason you assume) shows a very distorted pattern of thinking.
3. If seeing a suicide is _more_ traumatizing than seeing masturbation, you would think you would see it as _worse_, not better, to expose a child to that.
4. And, as usual, you lapse into your misanthropic "I'd rather live in a post-apocalyptic shithole than a civilization because then at least all of my biases about human nature would be confirmed" rant (NOTE TO CORBIN DALLAS MULTIPASS: since you insist on policing me, I _defy_ you to read Sprig's post history, especially on the topic of human civilization, family, and behavior, and say that the above is more than mildly uncharitable to his greater worldview.)  I will reiterate: maybe you should just post about the lolcows rather than talk about this sort of thing.  On my behalf, I should probably stop responding to you, because in my opinion, people who have no skin in the game of human society shouldn't be taken seriously when it comes to... well, anything involving human society.  In conclusion: I sincerely wish I had enough money to grant your wishes and ship you to Somalia, which by your standards is the most honest country (although not perfectly honest, since it hasn't devolved into a perfect Hobbsian war of all against all where anything human is a hindrance to survival.)


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> 1. The person masturbating in public is making you party in something you want nothing to do with.  A public suicide is making you party in something you want nothing to do with.  The person masturbating in front of children is making them party to something they want nothing to do with.  The suicide shooting his brains out in front of children is making them party to something they want nothing to do with.  And, since you mentioned "intent matters": someone who shouts "THIS IS YOUR FAULT!" at someone before offing themselves has a pretty explicit goal of causing extreme trauma and guilt to another.
> 2. Alright, let me make this clear: domestic violence, child abuse, and depression are all serious issues that should be better addressed.  The latter, for me, is also a personal issue.  The fact that you act like it isn't, and I just don't want people to kill themselves out of virtue signalling or because I'm some kind of sadistic monster (or whatever reason you assume) shows a very distorted pattern of thinking.
> 3. If seeing a suicide is _more_ traumatizing than seeing masturbation, you would think you would see it as _worse_, not better, to expose a child to that.
> 4. And, as usual, you lapse into your misanthropic "I'd rather live in a post-apocalyptic shithole than a civilization because then at least all of my biases about human nature would be confirmed" rant (NOTE TO CORBIN DALLAS MULTIPASS: since you insist on policing me, I _defy_ you to read Sprig's post history, especially on the topic of human civilization, family, and behavior, and say that the above is more than mildly uncharitable to his greater worldview.)  I will reiterate: maybe you should just post about the lolcows rather than talk about this sort of thing.  On my behalf, I should probably stop responding to you, because in my opinion, people who have no skin in the game of human society shouldn't be taken seriously when it comes to... well, anything involving human society.  In conclusion: I sincerely wish I had enough money to grant your wishes and ship you to Somalia, which by your standards is the most honest country (although not perfectly honest, since it hasn't devolved into a perfect Hobbsian war of all against all where anything human is a hindrance to survival.)


1. You can stop a public masturbator.  You try and stop a public suicide by gun and you're like as not to get shot.
2. You benevolent-tyrants have had time to figure out how to deal with them adequately and failed miserably.  Fuck off.  Tyrannies carried out for the benefit of subjects are not better than any other.
3. Worse? Why worry about "worse" or "better" here? You can stop a masturbator.  Like I said, try stopping a suicidal person with a gun.  Go ahead.  Try it.  There's a reason that situation scares cops shitless.  Letting the suicidal person off themselves at least keeps the body count to one.
4. I'm misanthropic because you people confirm every single bias every single day.  You are all equally worthless and miserable in my eyes, some for different reasons than others.  Lecture me all you want about how benevolent you are, benevolent tyrant.  You all bleed the same when someone gets sick of your shit.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> 1. You can stop a public masturbator.  You try and stop a public suicide by gun and you're like as not to get shot.
> 2. You benevolent-tyrants have had time to figure out how to deal with them adequately and failed miserably.  Fuck off.  Tyrannies carried out for the benefit of subjects are not better than any other.
> 3. Worse? Why worry about "worse" or "better" here? You can stop a masturbator.  Like I said, try stopping a suicidal person with a gun.  Go ahead.  Try it.  There's a reason that situation scares cops shitless.  Letting the suicidal person off themselves at least keeps the body count to one.
> 4. I'm misanthropic because you people confirm every single bias every single day.  You are all equally worthless and miserable in my eyes, some for different reasons than others.  Lecture me all you want about how benevolent you are, benevolent tyrant.  You all bleed the same when someone gets sick of your shit.


Is your name Not Important?
Also, I only gave this post a hat because there's no "edgy" rating.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> Is your name Not Important?
> Also, I only gave this post a hat because there's no "edgy" rating.


This warranted a post? I suppose your ego wasn't satisfied with the rating, was it?


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> This warranted a post? I suppose your ego wasn't satisfied with the rating, was it?


It's called a shitpost.  I rarely engage in them, but given I've exhausted actual communication with you...


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> It's called a shitpost.  I rarely engage in them, but given I've exhausted actual communication with you...


"Communication"? Oh, the lecturing and scolding and fingerwagging.  Yeah, now I remember why I find "communicating" with you types exhausting.

You're basically people that didn't get punched in the face enough, and I'm the kind of person who got punched in the face too often.  Clearly there's some sweet spot somewhere, damn if I know where it is.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> "Communication"? Oh, the lecturing and scolding and fingerwagging.  Yeah, now I remember why I find "communicating" with you types exhausting.
> 
> You're basically people that didn't get punched in the face enough, and I'm the kind of person who got punched in the face too often.  Clearly there's some sweet spot somewhere, damn if I know where it is.


This is what I'm talking about.  You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with someone in your head who you've decided is me.  You don't know me at all (partially because I try to avoid powerleveling as much as possible).  Since this _is _relevant, and thus not powerleveling: I was sexually assaulted in high school and was suicidally depressed throughout my late teens to early twenties; I actually attempted to kill myself, and only failed because my parents called the police.
But this isn't a competition where we try and show who's life sucks more, because that really doesn't have a bearing on who's right or wrong.
Also, I would hazard that the ideal number of times someone should be punched in the face is somewhere close to "zero".  But what do I know?  I'm [$OUTGROUP$], and therefore wrong.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> This is what I'm talking about.  You aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with someone in your head who you've decided is me.  You don't know me at all (partially because I try to avoid powerleveling as much as possible).  Since this _is _relevant, and thus not powerleveling: I was sexually assaulted in high school and was suicidally depressed throughout my late teens to early twenties; I actually attempted to kill myself, and only failed because my parents called the police.
> But this isn't a competition where we try and show who's life sucks more, because that really doesn't have a bearing on who's right or wrong.
> Also, I would hazard that the ideal number of times someone should be punched in the face is somewhere close to "zero".  But what do I know?  I'm [$OUTGROUP$], and therefore wrong.


You're more or less like any other of your type I've encountered.  You're convinced you'll lead us into a wonderful, caring future if we just give you a little more power.  Just a little more.   A little more.

And being punched in the face, metaphorically or literally, is something you deserve sometimes.  It's a lesson.  Pain is a fantastic teacher if you survive the lesson.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> You're more or less like any other of your type I've encountered.  You're convinced you'll lead us into a wonderful, caring future if we just give you a little more power.  Just a little more.   A little more.
> 
> And being punched in the face, metaphorically or literally, is something you deserve sometimes.  It's a lesson.  Pain is a fantastic teacher if you survive the lesson.


Yes, the man who argues for existentialism in basically every DT thread is an authoritarian monster for not believing it's right to kill yourself in front of children.


Spoiler: As Sisyphus, I push this rock ever upwards



I don't believe there's ever a good reason to kill yourself, short of a wasting illness with no cure.  That's just what I believe.  I will argue for what I believe because, well... I believe in it.  I don't think everyone should live like me; if you asked me what the best possible life to live is, I honestly have no clue, beyond "be as much _you_ as possible".  I also recognize that society is something that's needed for self-actualization, but that there are some people who's needs for self-actualization are very harmful to society.  This conflict is the paradox of the human existence.  I feel like this attitude of yours is actively blocking you from self-actualization; I say that because, from the outside, you seem extremely sad and angry.  But, for all I know, you are actually supremely happy with where you are.  Regardless, your worldview and mine conflict gravely, and so we will continue to argue with no clear winner; but it is this argument itself that gives life meaning.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> Yes, the man who argues for existentialism in basically every DT thread is an authoritarian monster for not believing it's right to kill yourself in front of children.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: As Sisyphus, I push this rock ever upwards
> ...


Debating the right and wrong of it misses the point by a country mile anyway.  Feel free to try debating the right and wrong of suicide-with-an-audience with a suicidal person sometime, report back with results.  You're so wrapped up in "should be" that you can't get out of your own damn way here.  Bad shit happening is a universal fucking constant.  A lot of the time the most you can hope for lies in how well you can keep yourself clear of the blast radius.  



Spoiler



You presume to tell me that you or anyone like you is of such great moral and intellectual fiber that you know my way better than myself? I ask that you leave me alone in my matters of self, and my second request for being left alone will be far less pleasant.  This is not something to be argued over.  I don't CARE what your intentions are, if I want help I will fucking ASK for it.  I have had quite enough of authority with good intentions - they haven't gotten it right yet and they never will.  External authority is a poor substitute for knowing how to take care of it yourself, anyway.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> Debating the right and wrong of it misses the point by a country mile anyway.  Feel free to try debating the right and wrong of suicide-with-an-audience with a suicidal person sometime, report back with results.  You're so wrapped up in "should be" that you can't get out of your own damn way here.  Bad shit happening is a universal fucking constant.  A lot of the time the most you can hope for lies in how well you can keep yourself clear of the blast radius.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you perhaps know forms of argument beyond "titanium-hard cynicism" and "threats of physical violence"?  Because neither of those work here.  Here, if you're really sincere with following through with your threats:
-508 Riverview Dr, Asheville, NC 28806
Meet me here in one week, 7 PM.  Bring whatever you deem needed to batter/kill me.  It's sufficiently isolated that no one will notice, and I won't get the police involved.  North Carolina still has mutual combat laws.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> Do you perhaps know forms of argument beyond "titanium-hard cynicism" and "threats of physical violence"?  Because neither of those work here.  Here, if you're really sincere with following through with your threats:
> -508 Riverview Dr, Asheville, NC 28806
> Meet me here in one week.  Bring whatever you deem needed to beat/kill me.


I'm not in the business of chasing people down to hurt them.  I am content to live and let live.  You and your type, however, are not, and therein lies the rub.  

You'll have to find someone nastier than I if you really have that death wish, sorry.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jul 9, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> I'm not in the business of chasing people down to hurt them.  I am content to live and let live.  You and your type, however, are not, and therein lies the rub.
> 
> You'll have to find someone nastier than I if you really have that death wish, sorry.


And as usual for internet badasses, all talk, no walk.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 9, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> And as usual for internet badasses, all talk, no walk.


Like I would be proving anything by hurting you.

Listen to yourself for just a minute here.  You replied to a very serious request to be left alone with the Internet equivalent of "PISTOLS AT DAWN".  But I'm the edgelord.  Lol, k.


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## IAmNotAlpharius (Jul 10, 2019)

Dom Cruise said:


> The sad irony is the modern sweatshop system is even _worse_ than slavery.
> 
> When you're a slave your food, clothing and shelter has to come out of your owner's pocket and it's in your owner's interest to keep you relatively healthy, but if you're a sweatshop worker you are paid literally pennies and how you survive on that is all on you to figure out. Drop dead? no biggie, there's more workers lined up behind you, there's literally zero incentive for a corporation to care about your well being when you're not property.
> 
> ...



In the sugar plantations, especially the ones owned by the Portuguese, slavery largely operated that way. It was cheaper to work a slave to death and replace him than to make sure he survived. In the American South slaves were more expensive, so they actually wanted them to live. Instead of being a disposable workforce they were basically treated as farming equipment. It was also beneficial if they had children (since they could sell them), so the South purchased more women. For the Portuguese it wasn’t worth waiting for the kids to grow up.

The Portuguese and Spanish also enslaved native Americans but no one seems to talk about that. The mines of Potosi were hellish. I also find it amusing how few people are aware that the plains tribes also participated in the slave trade (of captives).


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## Slap47 (Jul 10, 2019)

IAmNotAlpharius said:


> In the sugar plantations, especially the ones owned by the Portuguese, slavery largely operated that way. It was cheaper to work a slave to death and replace him than to make sure he survived. In the American South slaves were more expensive, so they actually wanted them to live. Instead of being a disposable workforce they were basically treated as farming equipment. It was also beneficial if they had children (since they could sell them), so the South purchased more women. For the Portuguese it wasn’t worth waiting for the kids to grow up.
> 
> The Portuguese and Spanish also enslaved native Americans but no one seems to talk about that. The mines of Potosi were hellish. I also find it amusing how few people are aware that the plains tribes also participated in the slave trade (of captives).



American slaves were treated better because they grew Tobacco. Tobacco was a seasonal crop that was relatively low effort.

Sugar was a crop that was a burst of insane labor followed by a dry season. Slaves worked to death during the labor season and literally starved to death during the dry season. 

Cotton picking in the 19th century was brutal but still not on the same level as sugar. The ban on the slave trade in 1807 made slaves more valuable but that happened everywhere because the British fleet was stopping slave ships.


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