# Why is political illiteracy on the rise?



## PT 522 (May 18, 2019)

Every god damn day I see people all over social media flipping their shit over proposed bills, or passed "ridiculous" laws that were always meant to be struck down by the courts and renegotiated, or sperging about how muh republicans are ruining america.

Or, conversely, you'll see them frothing at the mouth to "PASS THE GREEN NEW DEAL!" or "muh impeach trump" or some shit without knowing how impeachment or bill passing works, leading them to believe in vain that if they yell hard enough at congressmen then everything they want will magically happen for them. I swear to god half of them couldn't even tell you what a subcomittee is.

Political illiteracy is on the rise in American young adults and children, is it because of the media or is it because they're bossy kids who never worked a day in their lives but still think they know everything? 321 go


----------



## Some JERK (May 18, 2019)

I don't think it's on the rise, I just think it's gotten louder. People have always been ignorant dumbshits.


----------



## PT 522 (May 18, 2019)

Some JERK said:


> I don't think it's on the rise, I just think it's gotten louder. People have always been ignorant dumbshits.


In general I wouldn't say even most people are 100% down with all the ins and outs of bicameral legislature. Like okay you can't name all the federal judges in your county and you don't know who appointed them. Like that kind of dumbshitness I understand, but what about "abolish electoral college" dumbshitness? Major politicians have latched onto that one as a way to get votes without following through on their promises, but it goes to show that being a noisy minority can still win you bargaining chips.


----------



## Shaved Kiwis (May 18, 2019)

Fat Pikachu said:


> Every god damn day I see people all over social media flipping their shit over proposed bills, or passed "ridiculous" laws that were always meant to be struck down by the courts and renegotiated, or sperging about how muh republicans are ruining america.
> 
> Or, conversely, you'll see them frothing at the mouth to "PASS THE GREEN NEW DEAL!" or "muh impeach trump" or some shit without knowing how impeachment or bill passing works, leading them to believe in vain that if they yell hard enough at congressmen then everything they want will magically happen for them.
> 
> Political illiteracy is on the rise in American young adults and children, is it because of the media or is it because they're bossy little shits who never worked a day in their lives but still think they know everything? 321 go




Do you see actual people though? Everything is astroturfed to hell and back. Sure some of it is down to the barrier for entry in sharing your opinion online getting low enough that social media is flooded by even the dumbest retards, but at this point It's pretty noticeable how much major platforms try to mold opinions themselves not to mention all the other corporate, state, and political actors trying to use those platforms to push their interests and make the support seem more organic.


----------



## Some JERK (May 18, 2019)

Fat Pikachu said:


> Like that kind of dumbshitness I understand, but what about "abolish electoral college" dumbshitness?


Every single presidential election cycle the media has to explain how the EC works because people are ignorant and intellectually lazy.


----------



## JektheDumbass (May 18, 2019)

The whole thing is manufactured to keep Americans fighting and divided.  There is in fact an elite group of unelected individuals that hold all the real power, and if we're all arguing about whether Trump is the embodiment of all evil/second coming of Christ we won't notice and drag the fuckers out of their mansions and Lynch them.


----------



## Marco Fucko (May 18, 2019)

It's because of shorthanding and making everything a fucking litmus test.



JektheDumbass said:


> The whole thing is manufactured to keep Americans fighting and divided. There is in fact an elite group of unelected individuals that hold all the real power, and if we're all arguing about whether Trump is the embodiment of all evil/second coming of Christ we won't notice and drag the fuckers out of their mansions and Lynch them.



They become animals conditioned to respond to the opposing faction as hostilely as possible all while Bob Page counts his profits.


----------



## Gingervitis (May 18, 2019)

As a political dumbshit myself, I was wondering if there are any good websites or books to learn about this stuff. Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but I at least want to be able to say that I made a good decision


----------



## JambledUpWords (May 18, 2019)

Gingervitis said:


> As a political dumbshit myself, I was wondering if there are any good websites or books to learn about this stuff. Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but I at least want to be able to say that I made a good decision


I think one of the best things to gain political literacy is to read history books and primary sources on where our modern ideas for laws and philosophies come from. That said, all sources will inevitably have some bias, but the beauty of this is that you can learn to decide for yourself what really matters. Much of our ideas on American government stem from Enlightenment philosophy from people such as John Locke, which the Founding Fathers read. Also, look for Greek and Roman sources, as well as English laws on Parliament, Eyre Courts and the Magna Carta. Not everything can be directly related, but the Magna Carta limited the power of the King in 1215. The document itself though is more about the barons versus the King, rather than the general populace. The more you read what people in the past have read and history books to gain important background knowledge, the better understanding you will gain of how modern politics plays out. Also, don’t forget to read American primary sources such as the Constitution, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the Declaration of Independence, Common Sense (this is a short pamphlet) and important executive orders, Supreme Court cases, and the major points of important bills.


----------



## BONE_Buddy (May 18, 2019)

Political illiteracy level are actually falling like a rock. It is why you are noticing the dumbshits now, instead of just not seeing it at all.

It is safe to say I have been around the political block a time or two, and I am telling you that these idiots have been around forever. Walter Cronkite was a hardcore leftwing activist. Yet because he was one of the few big-time anchors on one of the few big TV channels, when he said: "I am America's political center" people believed him. 

Since the beginning the large news media corporations have been the ones controlling the narrative. The internet has broken that, and as much as they are trying to put that genie back in the bottle. They won't be able to.



Gingervitis said:


> As a political dumbshit myself, I was wondering if there are any good websites or books to learn about this stuff. Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but I at least want to be able to say that I made a good decision



The best, baby's first step into political philosophy I know of on the internet, at least for those of us on the right wing (and those who want to understand us), is the "First Principles Journal." Thier website is down right now, but is should be back up soon


----------



## Marco Fucko (May 18, 2019)

Gingervitis said:


> As a political dumbshit myself, I was wondering if there are any good websites or books to learn about this stuff. Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but I at least want to be able to say that I made a good decision



Other people have already said primary sources and but I'd add histories of society. Something I've noticed people do is they glamorize one step in the process of nation building but don't listen to what happens afterward. During the Chinese civil war both sides held Sun Yat-Sen in high regard, even though he was a centrist liberal and not a Communist. Sure a nation might establish a great ruler but what if they have no or a bad heir? Things like that.

Basically, if you already know about a historical period, look up the before and after. How it happened and what happened after it.


----------



## AbyssStarer (May 18, 2019)

why bother learning about anything when you just follow the twitter/MSM screaming hate mob? I don't really think illiteracy of politics is on the rise though. Just more voices.


----------



## Sexy Senior Citizen (May 18, 2019)

Political illiteracy is on the rise because our attention span is down. How many people actually click an article and read all the way through past a headline that says "Orange Man Bad?" Not enough evidently. Here's a thought experiment: the next time you see someone saying "Orange Man Bad/Good/Meh," question them. Probe their beliefs. Can they articulate what why they think what they think?
After absorbing information presented in the form of 10-30 second sound bites or short, jazzy articles, people begin developing a stunted view of the world, and are unable to defend it; when pressed, they frequently resort to ad hominem attacks or the almighty block button. This happens more often on the Left, but has been known to happen on the Right (if you start probing the beliefs of commentators on Beritbart articles, for example, more often than not you'll be called some variation of "libtard" for daring to question the Orange Savior.)
Think of it like this: if you only have the attention span to read the short, pithy lines of Dr. Seuss, eventually, that's all you'll be able to understand; you'll never make it through Shakespeare, let alone James Joyce. Similarly, if all you have the attention for is short, punchy headlines, you will never have the attention span to think deeply or critically about political issues, domestic or foreign- and it will certainly never occur to you to question the Party line.

TL;DR: "[A] mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge."
-George R. R. Martin


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

Political illiteracy is on the rise because it was a fucking very complicated subject to navigate to begin with and now you have all these retarded "shortcuts" that make being a fucking party-line-voting uncritical dipshit even easier and more attractive.


----------



## Foxxo (May 18, 2019)

I assure you, it was always there. It's just that everyone (short of the banned, who tend to know what they're talking about) has a platform on social media now, and everyone _visible_ on social media thinks that they can gain more attention by making a fuss about "problems".


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 18, 2019)

Sexy Senior Citizen said:


> TL;DR: "[A] mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge."


Then his mind has lost its edge with the lack of books coming from his mind.

I think the attention deficit is part of it, but the global reversal of the flynn effect is also part of it.

People are on average getting dumber, globally:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289615001336

Though I think the likeliest explanation is also the explanation for why Britain has the highest rate of birth complications and the reason why Sweden has some of the highest rape rates of Europe. (No it isn't because they count it differently, although they do, they were already moving towards having the highest rates before they changed it).

It is because intelligence is largely heritable and the smart people aren't having children and mass migration of people that are on average less cognitively able.

Every year we are learning more what the results of an intelligence deficit are. It's not just lack of being able to focus; it's also just a lack of being able to absorb and retain information.


----------



## XYZpdq (May 18, 2019)

I bet it's like how capeshit comics fans feel about people who only like the movies.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> Then his mind has lost its edge with the lack of books coming from his mind.
> 
> I think the attention deficit is part of it, but the global reversal of the flynn effect is also part of it.
> 
> ...


There's also the lack of impulse control that seems to correlate well with being a fucking dumdum.


----------



## Ruin (May 18, 2019)

Because the average Amerifat is basically retarded. Everyone gets butthurt when I say this but go to a restaurant, bar, or bus/metro and tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## Terrorist (May 18, 2019)

It’s always been there, but social media makes it more visible.

Of course most people’s definition of “politicallly illiterate” is “disagrees with me, that fucking asshole” so take this with a grain of salt.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 18, 2019)

Might be the hangover talking but "political illiteracy on the rise" seems cumbersome and dumb. Dumbersome? Yeah, that's it. Fat Pikachu has a dumbersome way of putting things. 

Anyway, "political literacy in decline" has a better flow to it. Now excuse me while I get back to my greasy breakfast.


----------



## gun (May 18, 2019)

politics have become more fashionable to wear on your sleeve, so everyone has a superficial understanding molded by their favorite idiot on twitter


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 18, 2019)

Here's another thought: Have you ever listened to / watched old political debates? Like ones that were held like 4 decades ago? And did a bit of research into the things that are said?

The first thing you notice is that people are so much more respectful and approach things in a slower, more thoughtful way. And it's easy to get melancholic about what was lost.
But then if you do research the things that are said they make some of the easiest obvious lies about serious things; not just about not following up with what was promised, but also that the things that were thoughtfully said were even at the time transparent lies, dissectable with a little research. Except; there was no internet, so you depended on either your newspaper or the library to fill in that research.

In my own country there are journalists that have admitted doing very biased smear campaigns, because they thought it was "for the greater good" and some of these journalists are still the most watched people in the news (on tv).

I do think people are getting dumber (or more accurately: dumb people reproducting more) and I do think political illiteracy is on the rise; but it's also easy to look on the past with rose tinted glasses. They may have known the rules of the system better; they were also easier lied to by media.

I think we were privileged to live in the short time of a free internet, considering that that too is in the decline.


----------



## FA 855 (May 18, 2019)

I think the internet is largely at fault, because we've always had a large body of people who don't really know that much, but with the internet it means that information travels faster than ever before, but it also means misinformation travels faster, and because we all have so much information, we don't know what to decide on, its harder to choose and people choose to believe in different fundamental facts to everyone else, this creates a lot of heated arguments between people. Its also contributing to shorter attention spans in people and thus debates are getting worse because people switch off after 1 minute or more. The internet also has this funny habit of creating echo chambers, so when people see a ideology unlike their own, they aren't ready for it and respond vitriolically, Twitter is perhaps the best example of this.


----------



## Clop (May 18, 2019)

I am a pretty dumbshit on politics, but I'd wager a guess it has a lot to do with how politics and politicians are discussed now.


----------



## Sīn the Moon Daddy (May 18, 2019)

Fat Pikachu said:


> is it because they're bossy little shits


No! Well maybe a little.

That being said I'm still confused about how authoritarian communism is supposed to save us from Trump.

In any case, it's tribalism and people who are too ignorant to be involved in politics anyway.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

RedRightHand said:


> I think the internet is largely at fault, because we've always had a large body of people who don't really know that much, but with the internet it means that information travels faster than ever before, but it also means misinformation travels faster, and because we all have so much information, we don't know what to decide on, its harder to choose and people choose to believe in different fundamental facts to everyone else, this creates a lot of heated arguments between people. Its also contributing to shorter attention spans in people and thus debates are getting worse because people switch off after 1 minute or more. The internet also has this funny habit of creating echo chambers, so when people see a ideology unlike their own, they aren't ready for it and respond vitriolically, Twitter is perhaps the best example of this.


Most people have no idea how to actually argue against someone else's stance properly.  As it turns out, the modern political and media scene seems to have obviated the need for that anyway, meaning not only does every political "debate" turn into a game of getting the "own" and attacking the debater, that pants-on-head shit actually works for the most part.  You don't need to understand anything important about your opponent's stance, just call him a bigot and you win.


----------



## Eryngium (May 18, 2019)

Gingervitis said:


> As a political dumbshit myself, I was wondering if there are any good websites or books to learn about this stuff. Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but I at least want to be able to say that I made a good decision


you don't need to learn anything, just scream at people on the internet like a retard, I've been doing it for years and it's working just fine.


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (May 18, 2019)

As several have said, it's really not getting worse, it's getting more noticeable because we have the internet. It used to be that the media corporations controlled every narrative and more people just accepted their word on who the good guys and bad guys were. Now it's a lot easier to poke holes when someone talks bullshit. One consequence of the increased media sphere in modern times is that they all have to get the scoop faster, faster, faster - hence the rise of clickbait that doesn't even care about telling the truth. The fever is going to get hotter before it breaks, but we'll get there. 



Gingervitis said:


> As a political dumbshit myself, I was wondering if there are any good websites or books to learn about this stuff. Not that it’ll make much of a difference, but I at least want to be able to say that I made a good decision





JambledUpWords said:


> I think one of the best things to gain political literacy is to read history books and primary sources on where our modern ideas for laws and philosophies come from. That said, all sources will inevitably have some bias, but the beauty of this is that you can learn to decide for yourself what really matters. Much of our ideas on American government stem from Enlightenment philosophy from people such as John Locke, which the Founding Fathers read. Also, look for Greek and Roman sources, as well as English laws on Parliament, Eyre Courts and the Magna Carta. Not everything can be directly related, but the Magna Carta limited the power of the King in 1215. The document itself though is more about the barons versus the King, rather than the general populace. The more you read what people in the past have read and history books to gain important background knowledge, the better understanding you will gain of how modern politics plays out. Also, don’t forget to read American primary sources such as the Constitution, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the Declaration of Independence, Common Sense (this is a short pamphlet) and important executive orders, Supreme Court cases, and the major points of important bills.


It's great to admit to yourself that you need to learn more. As @JambledUpWords says, study history. I will emphasize it - history, history, history. That will be your  backbone. Probably more recent history than ancient, both are vital for giving you perspective on how people will react to government behavior and trends, but the more recent (and local, if you're American but you want to comment on the yellowvests then look into French history for example), the more specific it'll be.


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 18, 2019)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> That will be your backbone. Probably more recent history than ancient, both are vital for giving you perspective on how people will react to government behavior and trends, but the more recent (and local, if you're American but you want to comment on the yellowvests then look into French history for example), the more specific it'll be.



I have to say I don't trust any history from after 1920. I try to figure out what I think likely happened, but I don't trust it. There is too much value in distorting it for it not to be distorted.


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (May 18, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> I have to say I don't trust any history from after 1920. I try to figure out what I think likely happened, but I don't trust it. There is too much value in distorting it for it not to be distorted.


You're never going to have a 100% perfect picture of any event or situation. The best you can do is to check multiple sources and try to keep in mind that there are always factors you don't have a good understanding of, so when making decisions you should err on the side of caution and not be too reactionary. But you do have to make those decisions and not wait when doing so because life keeps going whether you're ready to vote or not, and being paralyzed into inaction by fear of making mistakes is no better than acting too brashly.


----------



## Rand /pol/ (May 18, 2019)

Well obviously why would people vote for retards like Drumpf and Duterte.


----------



## verissimus (May 18, 2019)

I agree it's always been there, and maybe it seems louder, but I think it is worse than it's ever been because of the ease with which people can essentially scream their bloody head off.

I think the reasons why such illiteracy is rising goes as follows

1) People not willing to even read whole articles and instead trust either the by-lines or skim bits and pieces of said articles;

2) People being far too gullible in trusting news sources as being accurate and/or having a sensible professional analysis of an issue or situation as opposed to a laughably biased amateurish one;

3) People being too willing to trust and rely on sources of information from people or places they already agree with or alternatively you could chalk this up as people being too unwilling to discuss things with people who don't share their point of view;

4) People seem to be rewarded more either by their peers or by their fragile egos for being outraged or jaded than they are about being civil with those they don't agree with;

5) People (generally the "activist", the news media, and politico types) having a vested interest to be outraged and interested in selling that outrage;

6) People being too cowardly, naive, and/or lazy not to fall into the herd of some stupid hashtag push, "joke", or even memes; and finally

7) Postmodernist, "critical-thinking" indoctrination;


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 18, 2019)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> You're never going to have a 100% perfect picture of any event or situation. The best you can do is to check multiple sources and try to keep in mind that there are always factors you don't have a good understanding of, so when making decisions you should err on the side of caution and not be too reactionary. But you do have to make those decisions and not wait when doing so because life keeps going whether you're ready to vote or not, and being paralyzed into inaction by fear of making mistakes is no better than acting too brashly.


I agree completely. Just because I don't trust the information, doesn't mean I don't act on what I think I do know. But looking back, more books that I've read were intentionally misleading than accurate. I really thought the frankfurt school conspiracy ideas were bullshit, how could one school have such a tremendous influence? I think I first ran into it when the page got deleted on wikipedia by someone who described himself as a marxist, but I was too late to really see what had happened or not.

I thought, let's do an experiment. Let's look up the people that wrote the forewords to the philosophy/history books I had in my house at that moment.

And then 75% of them were connected to the frankfurt school, either directly or their spouse.  Okay, I just had 8 books on the subject, so it's a small sample, but it's still a considerable amount. And then I read the forewords more carefully and you see that they try to get you to see things in a certain frame as well as recommending some parts in for example plato's work being superceded by this or that frankfurt school scholar (though they never mentioned the frankfurt school part of course).


----------



## Gustav Schuchardt (May 18, 2019)

Before Sargon run for office I would regularly have very erudite discussions on normative ethical theories with members of the public. Now even highly educated political journalists are unclear on whether assaulting your political opponents is or is not a ethical reaction to them saying something with which you disagree.






What I think has happened is that global broadcasting of Sargon fat, smucking face has caused an atrophy in Broca's Area's in the brains of the public and will result in the fall of technological civilisation and humans being reduced to primitive, ape like creatures incapable of language or abstract thought.


----------



## LazarusOwenhart (May 18, 2019)

I think it's a false positive. Peoples opinions are so much more accessible these days. Even 10, 15 years ago it was a struggle to get your point of view past a few of your closest friends. Nowadays you put it on Twitter and it gets read by hundreds of people. I don't think people are any more politically illiterate than they ever were, they're just much more able to display that illiteracy in a public forum.


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 18, 2019)

Gustav Schuchardt said:


> Now even highly educated political journalists are unclear on whether assaulting your political opponents is or is not a ethical reaction to them saying something with which you disagree.


This isn't a regression of knowledge; this is globalism becoming more censorious and violent now that they've lost a couple of battles and making sure that it doesn't happen again.

To allow that, there is a need for people being open to censorship (because "misinformation" is "dangerous") and violence (violent rioting from antifa, not their opponents of course).

That's why you see someone like Destiny, who was mostly anti-censorship before he started talking politics, but then when he started talking politics, he had to adopt more openness to censorship to fit in with the typical lefties on youtube and mainstream (not to shit on the more open-minded lefties of this site).


----------



## Gustav Schuchardt (May 18, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> To allow that, there is a need for people being open to censorship (because "misinformation" is "dangerous") and violence (violent rioting from antifa, not their opponents of course).
> 
> That's why you see someone like Destiny, who was mostly anti-censorship before he started talking politics, but then when he started talking politics, he had to adopt more openness to censorship to fit in with the typical lefties on youtube and mainstream (not to shit on the more open-minded lefties of this site).



You're obviously right, but I was just playing with the idea that Anti Fa violence is because Sargon's malign influence was turning them into literal Ape Men for comedic purposes.


----------



## sadbird (May 18, 2019)

Fat Pikachu said:


> Or, conversely, you'll see them frothing at the mouth to "PASS THE GREEN NEW DEAL!" or "muh impeach trump" or some shit without knowing how impeachment or bill passing works, leading them to believe in vain that if they yell hard enough at congressmen then everything they want will magically happen for them. I swear to god half of them couldn't even tell you what a subcomittee is.


I wanna say people screaming to impeach the president has been a habit since the Clinton sex scandal, but I would believe it's been going on forever. I'm not sure I can say people have changed all that much, but our ways of socializing definitely have. Accessibility to socializing (no matter how lonely you are) combined with constant positive feedback loops have made people form their own cults without even realizing it I think. The common dialectic has forced a lot of people to either tow the line or face social ostracization even in their private lives. Things are kind of scary.


----------



## Henry Bemis (May 18, 2019)

The original question is confusing. Can you analogize your concerns to _Harry Potter_?


----------



## CivilianOfTheFandomWars (May 18, 2019)

It might just be me getting older, but every fucking person in my college seems to be a walking cause or can`t stop talking about politics. Even my Wood Shop teacher every lunch bings up some new bill or whatever. And since I am a retard who reads legal documents for fun, I know he just read some headlines or WP articles. Is it just college, or is that all I have to look forward to?


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> It might just be me getting older, but every fucking person in my college seems to be a walking cause or can`t stop talking about politics. Even my Wood Shop teacher every lunch bings up some new bill or whatever. And since I am an exceptional individual who reads legal documents for fun, I know he just read some headlines or WP articles. Is it just college, or is that all I have to look forward to?


I would say pretty much everyone has at least one pet cause but there are a good percentage of people who wear that shit like a badge wherever they go.  If they have lots of sociopolitically themed bumperstickers on their car chances are they're an insufferable axegrinder.


----------



## CivilianOfTheFandomWars (May 18, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> I would say pretty much everyone has at least one pet cause but there are a good percentage of people who wear that shit like a badge wherever they go.  If they have lots of sociopolitically themed bumperstickers on their car chances are they're an insufferable axegrinder.


My problem is the whole wearing like a badge thing. I get that people are passionate, but it gets to be a bit much after a while. And it is always the same three causes:
1. Women`s issues
2. Lgbt+ issues
3. Trump bad. Republicans evil. Vote for Not Trump
Might just be my school though.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> My problem is the whole wearing like a badge thing. I get that people are passionate, but it gets to be a bit much after a while. And it is always the same three causes:
> 1. Women`s issues
> 2. Lgbt+ issues
> 3. Trump bad. Republicans evil. Vote for Not Trump
> Might just be my school though.


It's going to vary a bit depending on area demographics.  In one place I lived I seriously could not get away from people bitching about the 2000 election to the point multiple someones were engaged in a running graffiti war over it.  

I got to hear a LOT about pet causes of certain family members who were perfectly prepared to ruin a small gathering over it, and may whatever god you pray to help you if you told them to shut the fuck up about it.


----------



## CivilianOfTheFandomWars (May 18, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> It's going to vary a bit depending on area demographics.  In one place I lived I seriously could not get away from people bitching about the 2000 election to the point multiple someones were engaged in a running graffiti war over it.
> 
> I got to hear a LOT about pet causes of certain family members who were perfectly prepared to ruin a small gathering over it, and may whatever god you pray to help you if you told them to shut the fuck up about it.


Certainly changes from place to place. But I like the idea of not talking about R.A.P.E in polite company.
Religon
Abortion
Politics
Economics

Dont talk about R.A.P.E, and everyone can get along fine.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> Certainly changes from place to place. But I like the idea of not talking about R.A.P.E in polite company.
> Religon
> Abortion
> Politics
> ...


The question is how one derails (re-rails?) a conversation that's heading down one of those tracks.  Someone starts with something not overtly political and another dipshit pipes up with a hot political take on the subject and no one knows how to get it back on track without just dropping the whole thing.


----------



## Duncan Hills Coffee (May 18, 2019)

CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> It might just be me getting older, but every fucking person in my college seems to be a walking cause or can`t stop talking about politics. Even my Wood Shop teacher every lunch bings up some new bill or whatever. And since I am an exceptional individual who reads legal documents for fun, I know he just read some headlines or WP articles. Is it just college, or is that all I have to look forward to?





CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> My problem is the whole wearing like a badge thing. I get that people are passionate, but it gets to be a bit much after a while. And it is always the same three causes:
> 1. Women`s issues
> 2. Lgbt+ issues
> 3. Trump bad. Republicans evil. Vote for Not Trump
> Might just be my school though.


I've been to two different colleges (I transferred after my second year), both of which are in the same state, and both of them are like this too. So many people wear literal badges and have political decals all over their laptops. I mean fuck, my current school has professors that adorn their offices with dumbass "resist racism" signs. It's inescapable. Best thing you can do is ignore it. I get it, it's really annoying, but that's all you can really do.


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 18, 2019)

Clop said:


> I am a pretty dumbshit on politics, but I'd wager a guess it has a lot to do with how politics and politicians are discussed now.


Okay so I watched that. What am I to conclude for this? Bad goys who question power? How are we all Nixon, if we are skeptical about the veracity of the stories elites tell use are for our own good?

I think most of the time people are trying to sell a story; it may be for good reason, it may be for a less morally good reason.

So who has to gain from getting people to believe they're crooked for watching out in regards to people lying; whether in power or doctors or otherwise?

It's the people who stop getting hard questions asked of them.


----------



## ProgKing of the North (May 18, 2019)

Henry Bemis said:


> The original question is confusing. Can you analogize your concerns to _Harry Potter_?


Everyone's like the dumbass civilian population in Harry Potter that believes whatever the government-sponsored newspaper tells them to htink


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (May 18, 2019)

It's kind of funny how "polite" and "politics" actually have little to nothing to do with each other, etymologically or in reality.


----------



## Ambidextype (May 18, 2019)

I blame the talk show hosts, regurgitate the political issues and oversimplify them. As a result Reddit's full of them pretending to know what they are talking about but they don't.


----------



## Duncan Hills Coffee (May 19, 2019)

Ambidextype said:


> I blame the talk show hosts, regurgitate the political issues and oversimplify them. As a result Reddit's full of them pretending to know what they are talking about but they don't.


I realized a long time ago that people like John Oliver were deliberately simplifying politically complex issues in order to push their narrative and trick unsuspecting viewers into thinking it's actual fucking journalism (I'm not kidding, so many people at my current college unironically believe this).

What's even worse is that not only do they simplify political issues, they also boil down complex arguments into black-and-white/us-and-them arguments, where the opposing side is presented as dumb and uneducated. There was a particular John Oliver segment where he tackled abortion; he basically belittled and insulted pro-lifers and even asked "what the fuck is wrong with you!?" at the very end of the segment. You don't need me to tell you how divisive of a topic abortion is, which is why that segment disturbed me. Oliver is basically saying it's okay to insult people you don't agree with, even when the topic is something as morally ambiguous as abortion. And that to me is the scariest thing, especially with how many people actually watching his crap.


----------



## Ambidextype (May 19, 2019)

Baldur's Gait said:


> they also boil down complex arguments into black-and-white/us-and-them arguments


This is the issue I take with talk show hosts and mainstream media. In some way they are the cancer that encourages the thinking, right or wrong side of the history among the disturbing number of people. They are exactly the types that will regress the society into idiocracy.


----------



## Clop (May 19, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> Okay so I watched that. What am I to conclude for this? Bad goys who question power? How are we all Nixon, if we are skeptical about the veracity of the stories elites tell use are for our own good?


We have all turned completely paranoid and pick apart anyone who tries to do anything useful. We're more likely to believe a bad story than a good story.


----------



## CoolGuyHitler (May 19, 2019)

lmao most americans cant even name the 3 branches of government did you really expect anymore than parroting what they see on the news/social media?


----------



## Comicsgeist (May 19, 2019)

Baldur's Gait said:


> I've been to two different colleges (I transferred after my second year), both of which are in the same state, and both of them are like this too. So many people wear literal badges and have political decals all over their laptops. I mean fuck, my current school has professors that adorn their offices with dumbass "resist racism" signs. It's inescapable. Best thing you can do is ignore it. I get it, it's really annoying, but that's all you can really do.



The slogans, stickers and badges are the IRL equivalent of 'rainbow filters on your Facebook profile pic', the behavior  of an increasing number of fuckwads that can't seem to tell the difference between Twitter and reality so they're as plastered with fatuious and empty virue-signals as their timeline tends to be.

I wouldn't ignore these cunts though, they'd reduce the constitution to a max of 280 characters if they could.


----------



## Lemmingwise (May 19, 2019)

Clop said:


> We have all turned completely paranoid and pick apart anyone who tries to do anything useful. We're more likely to believe a bad story than a good story.



It's disinfo bullshit. It's not paranoia when they're trying to deceive you. It's blaming the victim of lies rather than the liar.


----------



## Wallace (May 19, 2019)

Baldur's Gait said:


> I realized a long time ago that people like John Oliver were deliberately simplifying politically complex issues in order to push their narrative and trick unsuspecting viewers into thinking it's actual fucking journalism (I'm not kidding, so many people at my current college unironically believe this).
> 
> What's even worse is that not only do they simplify political issues, they also boil down complex arguments into black-and-white/us-and-them arguments, where the opposing side is presented as dumb and uneducated. There was a particular John Oliver segment where he tackled abortion; he basically belittled and insulted pro-lifers and even asked "what the fuck is wrong with you!?" at the very end of the segment. You don't need me to tell you how divisive of a topic abortion is, which is why that segment disturbed me. Oliver is basically saying it's okay to insult people you don't agree with, even when the topic is something as morally ambiguous as abortion. And that to me is the scariest thing, especially with how many people actually watching his crap.



Like every other pundit/comedian, John Oliver's show is designed to sell people a sense of moral self-righteousness, and business is very good. The average #CurrentYear journalist is an unholy amalgam of blogger, public relations manager, and carnival barker. They don't inform, they inflame. They don’t look for the truth, They decide what the truth is beforehand and then try to reverse reason their way and twist the facts to suit the truth they are selling. They make news that people will not only want to consume, but also share. It it's not viral, it's dead on arrival.

The media adopted this business model when it realized that people weren't consuming newspapers and other conventional sources of news. People have a hearty appetite for things that confirm their biases, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions, and help them throw rocks at their enemies. So this is the news that they consume. We have thousands of options to go for news, but only enough time and attention to consume a few, so the news must be engaging as possible. It's the pursuit of the engagement metric that has driven the media to its current state. It was either this or go extinct. 

In addition to the very strong incentive to consume fake news, there's also very little incentive to not be politically informed. Compared to fake news, being informed is much more expensive for much less return. When there are 100 million votes being cast every election, why bother going to all the trouble of doing the research when your vote counts so little?


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (May 19, 2019)

I'm not convinced it's on the rise, I think it's just more visible thanks to the internet and social media. I also think it's particularly exacerbated in the US by the way that America's corporate media establishment tends to cater to it's market at the expense of intellectual standards and journalistic integrity.

This seems to be less of an issue in Europe, where the quality of political broadcasting is generally much higher, but the problem still exists, perhaps just to a lesser degree. Personally, I blame the lack of emphasis our education systems place upon ideas and critical thinking. If people were intellectually equipped to engage with political issues sensibly. we would have a much more functional democracy.


----------



## Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost (May 19, 2019)

Right wing or left wing you always have had the situation where low information people are essentially used as useful idiots in order to get policies or ideas put through, or to win elections. 

Unfortunately with the widespread access of social media, and a certain portion of these low information voters being unable to think independently for themselves and either parrot the things that they are fed by others in the form of half baked political opinions, or they genuinely are so convinced of their own arguments that even when repeatedly confronted with the truth or facts that run contradictory to their precious either, they will react in anger, run away, or try to change the subject.

Generally I think social media is cancer, and I find these type of people contemptible, but it's worth challenging them and their stupidity, partly because it's fun, partly because the people who are sensible will see through it as well.


----------



## Basil II (May 19, 2019)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> This seems to be less of an issue in Europe, where the quality of political broadcasting is generally much higher


Holy shit LMAO


----------



## Spatula (May 20, 2019)

It is on the rise for the past couple of decades thanks to democracy.
It is the only system that allows illiterate people to have a say in the future of their country.
The same system that had enemies in the same country that was invented and throughout history has proven to be disastrous, is defended by the people in power because even they know it's the best one for them.
Thanks to social media, their job of manipulating the stupid is made super easy.


----------



## ⋖ cørdion ⋗ (May 20, 2019)

Easy identifier. No personality? No hobbies? No quirks? Pick a political side and you can now engage in public shaming of anyone regardless of beliefs.

Bonus points for a noncis gender label.


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (May 20, 2019)

Basil II said:


> Holy shit LMAO



Am I wrong though? Just compare the average debate segment on a US network to an equivalent program on the BBC such as Questiontime or Newsnight, and you tell me which you think is of a higher standard.


----------



## Basil II (May 20, 2019)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> Am I wrong though? Just compare the average debate segment on a US network to an equivalent program on the BBC such as Questiontime or Newsnight, and you tell me which you think is of a higher standard.


Ah yes, the UK where people are arrested for blaspheming against Allah and his Prophet, truly a higher standard of political awareness.


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (May 20, 2019)

Basil II said:


> Ah yes, the UK where people are arrested for blaspheming against Allah and his Prophet, truly a higher standard of political awareness.



What does people being arrested have to do with the news media?


----------



## Basil II (May 20, 2019)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> What does people being arrested have to do with the news media?


They're 2 elements of the same system, both of their uses is to purge wrongthink and dissent, the BBC does this by peddling a specific view and pretending to be nonpartisan and the British """""police""""" do this by arresting you if you do anything the state doesn't like, such as teaching a Pug to sieg heil as a joke, or saying literally anything negative about Islam, this practice is starting to spread to other British Commonwealth countries like Australia (Which has a fucking Islamophobia Register List) and New Zealand (Which used the deaths of dozens of people as an oppurtunity to purge their political enemies)

The U.S. government and media will also do this but they have a lot less power and can't actively arrest people for wrongthink, and most Americans have guns which makes Soviet style Authoritarianism a lot harder.


----------



## Spunt (May 20, 2019)

The BBC and British TV/Broadsheet media in general do have a higher standard of political discussion than their equivalents in the States. However they're just as biased, and in particularly the case of the BBC, they won't admit to it either, unlike most lefty US outlets, and also have the massive advantages that being the State Media gives them.


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (May 21, 2019)

Baldur's Gait said:


> I realized a long time ago that people like John Oliver were deliberately simplifying politically complex issues in order to push their narrative and trick unsuspecting viewers into thinking it's actual fucking journalism (I'm not kidding, so many people at my current college unironically believe this).
> 
> What's even worse is that not only do they simplify political issues, they also boil down complex arguments into black-and-white/us-and-them arguments, where the opposing side is presented as dumb and uneducated. There was a particular John Oliver segment where he tackled abortion; he basically belittled and insulted pro-lifers and even asked "what the fuck is wrong with you!?" at the very end of the segment. You don't need me to tell you how divisive of a topic abortion is, which is why that segment disturbed me. Oliver is basically saying it's okay to insult people you don't agree with, even when the topic is something as morally ambiguous as abortion. And that to me is the scariest thing, especially with how many people actually watching his crap.


This brings up a good point. "Comedy News" has been a very big phenomenon since John Stewart took over the Daily Show. That crew of comedy writers found a _very_ lucrative market in convincing young Americans that they are entitled to be entertained by their news. It's gotten to the point where they can't even separate truth from humorous ego-stroking - if it makes me laugh, it must be true, despite the fact no one feels inclined to laugh at being called wrong nearly as much as they do to laugh at people they've already decided are stupid so the only truths I'm going to accept are the ones that I already think I know everything about anyway. By the same token, if something doesn't agree with my politics, then it can't be funny and I'm not allowed to laugh at it, which is why every standup piece now has turned into soapboxing and campaigning for the audience's pre-chosen candidate.

For all the dishonest whinging these people will do about the damage caused by Fox News, the damage to the free flow of information done by Comedy Central is far more real.


----------



## Duncan Hills Coffee (May 21, 2019)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> This brings up a good point. "Comedy News" has been a very big phenomenon since John Stewart took over the Daily Show. That crew of comedy writers found a _very_ lucrative market in convincing young Americans that they are entitled to be entertained by their news. It's gotten to the point where they can't even separate truth from humorous ego-stroking - if it makes me laugh, it must be true, despite the fact no one feels inclined to laugh at being called wrong nearly as much as they do to laugh at people they've already decided are stupid so the only truths I'm going to accept are the ones that I already think I know everything about anyway. By the same token, if something doesn't agree with my politics, then it can't be funny and I'm not allowed to laugh at it, which is why every standup piece now has turned into soapboxing and campaigning for the audience's pre-chosen candidate.
> 
> For all the dishonest whinging these people will do about the damage caused by Fox News, the damage to the free flow of information done by Comedy Central is far more real.


I've had conversations with my mother about this, since she's opinionated about politics, and she is particularly annoyed at people putting these comedians on a pedestal and proclaiming them to be actual newspeople, but they aren't. They're comedians and their job is to make you laugh, not inform you. Thing is, back when John Stewart was doing it, and even Colbert before he became consumed by TDS, they were actually trying to be satirical and not push some sort of agenda on you. You could at least make an argument that it was just trying to be funny. Hell even Stewart had a history of calling out liberals on their bullshit. But it's mutated into this disgusting circus that caters specifically to its intended audience, namely young impressionable left-leaning college kids and older. It's so bizarre and transparently gross, but nobody really calls them out on it.

It's discomforting hearing other people say they get their news from people like John Oliver and claim it's actual journalism. You can feel free to laugh at news that's just being told in a funny way; I remember one person saying they watched him because it was the only way they could bear to get news. But it's a lot more sinister than that, and that's why there seriously needs to be more discussion about it, especially in how it affects the political opinions of young people.


----------



## Black Waltz (May 21, 2019)

Simple, it's easier to jerk yourself off and proclaim how right you are and how wrong everyone else is than it is to actually listen to what other people have to say.


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (May 21, 2019)

Basil II said:


> They're 2 elements of the same system, both of their uses is to purge wrongthink and dissent, the BBC does this by peddling a specific view and pretending to be nonpartisan and the British """""police""""" do this by arresting you if you do anything the state doesn't like, such as teaching a Pug to sieg heil as a joke, or saying literally anything negative about Islam, this practice is starting to spread to other British Commonwealth countries like Australia (Which has a fucking Islamophobia Register List) and New Zealand (Which used the deaths of dozens of people as an oppurtunity to purge their political enemies)



If they're really part of the same system, why did so many British media outlets report the concerns that people had over the Count Dankula arrest? Why did many of them also feature opinion pieces voicing these concerns explicitly? Do you really expect me to believe that a media establishment which was central to exposing the Rotherham, Rochdale, and Telford sex abuse scandals is somehow complicit in a conspiracy to protect Islam and Muslims from negative press? Because frankly, I find that claim laughable. Do you ever read British newspapers?

Don't get me wrong, I would never claim that the UK press is perfect, or totally free of bias, but overall, it's in much better shape than what you have in the US.



Basil II said:


> The U.S. government and media will also do this but they have a lot less power and can't actively arrest people for wrongthink, and most Americans have guns which makes Soviet style Authoritarianism a lot harder.



You might not get arrested in America, but you can still lose your job, expect your family to be endlessly harassed, and be completely shut out of public life if you express the wrong opinion publicly. Don't think that you're free just because it's private individuals and corporations that are suppressing you rather than government agencies.


----------



## Ughubughughughughughghlug (May 22, 2019)

Spunt said:


> The BBC and British TV/Broadsheet media in general do have a higher standard of political discussion than their equivalents in the States. However they're just as biased, and in particularly the case of the BBC, they won't admit to it either, unlike most lefty US outlets, and also have the massive advantages that being the State Media gives them.





Basil II said:


> They're 2 elements of the same system, both of their uses is to purge wrongthink and dissent, the BBC does this by peddling a specific view and pretending to be nonpartisan and the British """""police""""" do this by arresting you if you do anything the state doesn't like, such as teaching a Pug to sieg heil as a joke, or saying literally anything negative about Islam, this practice is starting to spread to other British Commonwealth countries like Australia (Which has a fucking Islamophobia Register List) and New Zealand (Which used the deaths of dozens of people as an oppurtunity to purge their political enemies)
> 
> The U.S. government and media will also do this but they have a lot less power and can't actively arrest people for wrongthink, and most Americans have guns which makes Soviet style Authoritarianism a lot harder.



Both of you are partially right.

The level of discourse in public media, and possibly European media in general, is more civil and intelligent.

However, it's also a propaganda machine for the state.

BBC, PBS, and Al-Jazeera are all really good for day-to-day reporting, but they'll never run anything that contradicts the ideology of the people running them. Most news has an ideology behind it and it's better when they're upfront about it; we should be striving for honesty, not objectivity, in reporting. It used to be that newspapers would just directly state what party they supported.

I watch FOX sometimes since it's the Right-wing channel, but it's the epitome of garbage American reporting. A bunch of people sitting around shouting over each other. Disgusting manners.


----------



## Stardust (May 22, 2019)

In my opinion, it is a case of taking the path of least resistance.  A lot of citizens find things like law, history, and so on dull or uninteresting.  They prefer doing their own engagement on their own time.  Why learn the nuances of politics, which could take hours, when you can jack off or watch Netflix? It is easier to let somebody else do the grueling grunt work, while you browse porn categories.

Bah to health care, show me big booty bitches!


----------



## DerKryptid (Aug 19, 2021)

Because we live in a society


----------

