# mind still = semi-blown at the fact that having kids is legal



## Jason Genova (Feb 24, 2017)

I *legit situationed* the first time I considered that birth is completely involuntary, just like many things we consider to be not moral
being born is basically the same thing as getting raped srs









Spoiler











can anybody even come up with a legit argument against antinatalism?

id be willing to listen to it

NOTICE: when I first thought ab out posting this thread I was going to put up a vid from rebel absurdity, but that fucker deleted it so this thread is going to be shittier than I wanted it to be


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## Save Goober (Feb 24, 2017)

It's probably worse for men since you can't really choose an abortion lol


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## ICametoLurk (Feb 24, 2017)

melty said:


> It's probably worse for men since you can't really choose an abortion lol


It's called making her trip on some stairs. Oldest form of abortion.


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## Save Goober (Feb 24, 2017)

ICametoLurk said:


> It's called making her trip on some stairs. Oldest form of abortion.


Well yeah but I don't think it's certain that it works, and you don't just end up with an exceptional individual later.


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## AA 102 (Feb 24, 2017)

melty said:


> Well yeah but I don't think it's certain that it works, and you don't just end up with an exceptional individual later.


Just kill her then.


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## Acceptable (Feb 24, 2017)

or just drink copious amounts of alcohol and do as many drugs as you can afford, and the baby will probably not survive..


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## BT 075 (Feb 24, 2017)

Life is actually pretty awesome, if you are not born with failure genetics like most of the people discussed on this website. Life has all sorts of cool stuff, like good food, alcohol, sex, traveling, sunshine and whatever. If you are a reasonable attractive and reasonable intelligent person with a decent income, there's zero reason not to have a bunch of kids if you feel like it. Chances are they'll have a pretty okay life. Antinatalism is some bullshit philosophy made up by some depressed autist from the 19th century who never got his dick wet in eighty years of living on this earth. No wonder he was a sad shit and considered the continuation of life "immoral".


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## Jason Genova (Feb 24, 2017)

Satan said:


> Antinatalism is some bullshit philosophy made up by some depressed autist from the 19th century who never got his dick wet in eighty years of living on this earth. No wonder he was a sad shit and considered the continuation of life "immoral".



I mean I was expecting a legit argument but I guess this collection of small-skulled low-IQ keyboard smashings is just as good


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## BT 075 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> I mean I was expecting a legit argument but I guess this collection of small-skulled low-IQ keyboard smashings is just as good



I'm just saying: only a virgin without life experience would compare giving birth to rape, I mean lol wtf. That's the sort of stuff that may get you reblogs on Tumblr land but will cause anyone in real people world to rightfully question your sanity.


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## HG 400 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> I *legit situationed* the first time I considered that birth is completely involuntary, just like many things we consider to be not moral
> being born is basically the same thing as getting raped srs
> 
> 
> ...



And every time you poop it's like getting fucked in the asshole, so you're basically a gigantic faggot.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm with @Satan on this. 
Life is fucking awesome. It's got love and whiskey and great movies and goals to accomplish and things to conquer.
I think it essentially boils down to whether or not you're man enough to take it on. To some, it's an entire world of opportunities and limitless potential.
And then, of course, there's a bunch of spineless pussies who see those opportunities, decide that _it's just too haaard _and resolve to wallow in a bunch of pseudointellectual drivel about how they never asked for this.
And the truth is, they earned that. If all you see is a world of potential failures and unhappiness, you deserve to live in your self-imposed misery. 
Don't blame the world just because you're too weak to live in it.


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## The Fool (Feb 24, 2017)

I like what vsauce said one time, how it's an impossibly small chance that you were born, and yet here you are. It keeps me going, through the depression and alcoholism.


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## Shiversblood (Feb 25, 2017)

It is NOT POSSIBLE to rape someone who has not been born. Thus, as a direct result, being born is NOT the same as being raped. Because if you weren't born then you can't be raped in the first place. 

That's just like a man attempting to rape a ghost, or attempting to rape someone who may or may not be born in the future, such as pelvic thrusting the thin air with the thought that perhaps the notnyet born person might be there such as in a different demneision and thus a small chance of succeeding in rape, never understanding that their theory is wrong in the first place.

How DARE you say being born is being raped. It really pisses me off when triggered feminists try to make everything sexual, make every thing a sexual assault, make even saying hi to a female some kind of male attack on female. I will NOT feel ashamed just for being male, and you were NOT raped just by being born. People like you are the reason why REAL rape victims lose all credibility. This thread is such bullshit.


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## Curt Sibling (Feb 25, 2017)

OP should just be aborted. Retro-active prevention of rape.


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## Alberto Balsalm (Feb 25, 2017)

Most people don't voluntarily get arrested either but you don't take the fucking cop to court for stealing your meth


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> I mean I was expecting a legit argument but I guess this collection of small-skulled low-IQ keyboard smashings is just as good


Alright, fine, here's your argument:
Procreation is necessary for the continuation and advancement of the species. The misery and self-inflicted suffering of a few miserable fucks like you is an understandable expense in the pursuit of that goal.
If it costs the species five of you killing yourselves over imagined slights in exchange for producing another Elon Musk, that's what we call "acceptable collateral".
Because if we're being honest, we'd rather have hydrogen fuel cells than you. So don't see yourself as a victim. See yourself as a necessary failure on the way to creating someone useful.


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## Curt Sibling (Feb 25, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> Alright, fine, here's your argument:
> Procreation is necessary for the continuation and advancement of the species. The misery and self-inflicted suffering of a few miserable fucks like you is an understandable expense in the pursuit of that goal.
> If it costs the species five of you killing yourselves over imagined slights in exchange for producing another Elon Musk, that's what we call "acceptable collateral".
> Because if we're being honest, we'd rather have hydrogen fuel cells than you. So don't see yourself as a victim. See yourself as a necessary failure on the way to creating someone useful.



Well spoken! This quote should be tatooed on every autist's forehead.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 25, 2017)

@Dynastia 
fucking lol if you and your best male friends aren't fucking each other in the ass srs

@Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. 
Just consider this:
1. being born is involuntary
2. 99.999% of people experience pain in their lifetime
3. when you give birth to a child it is almost certain that the child will experience pain
4. having children is subjecting them to pain without their consent
5. by most standards of morality having children is immoral

Calm down with the angry tone of your responses bro, do you argue like this in real life?
Pissing somebody off is a fantastic way of making sure that you'll never make them believe what you believe.
When people like you they're like wet cement, when they're mad they get dry.


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## AnOminous (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> @Dynastia
> fucking lol if you and your best male friends aren't fucking each other in the ass srs
> 
> @Dr. Boe Jangles Esq.
> ...



Ask the vast majority of people whether they'd rather be alive or not.  Pick anywhere you like.  Even the worst shithole on Earth.

If everyone in the world were a miserable son of a bitch like Arthur Schopenhauer, perhaps it would be a good philosophy.

However, more people than not, actually the vast majority, are pretty much okay with being alive even at its worst.  So the net increase in happiness from people being born is positive, and therefore, it is morally justified under any utility analysis that takes happiness into account.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 25, 2017)

AnOminous said:


> Ask the vast majority of people whether they'd rather be alive or not.  Pick anywhere you like.  Even the worst shithole on Earth.
> 
> If everyone in the world were a miserable son of a bitch like Arthur Schopenhauer, perhaps it would be a good philosophy.
> 
> However, more people than not, actually the vast majority, are pretty much okay with being alive even at its worst.  So the net increase in happiness from people being born is positive, and therefore, it is morally justified under any utility analysis that takes happiness into account.



best argument I've seen so far today, liked
I guess it is true that most people are glad to be alive. I still am against having kids *(for the reasons given in post #1* but won't become some pro-human extinction terrorist faggot or anything.


Spoiler



its gotten to the point that I hate everyone else on this site so much that I'm actually glad to see your posts in my threads, no homer


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## Hui (Feb 25, 2017)

Sorry but this is some nihilistic autism reasoning friend.  I can relate somewhat but just outright denying people being born sounds...fucked? Yeah.  Good responses so far though.


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## Caesare (Feb 25, 2017)

Hui said:


> Sorry but this is some nihilistic autism reasoning friend.



Heavy Heavy emphasis on the autism.


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## Mason Verger (Feb 25, 2017)

This is the dumbest suicide note I've ever read.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 25, 2017)

Hui said:


> Sorry but this is some nihilistic autism reasoning friend.  I can relate somewhat but just outright denying people being born sounds...fucked? Yeah.  Good responses so far though.





Coleman Francis said:


> Heavy Heavy emphasis on the autism.





Mason Verger said:


> This is the dumbest suicide note I've ever read.



still no arguments on the points in post #18, just a bunch of coping mechanisms and insults

never change kiwifarms


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## Marvin (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> still no arguments on the points in post #18, just a bunch of coping mechanisms and insults
> 
> never change kiwifarms


It's not really a serious thread, so it doesn't really merit serious replies.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> @Dynastia
> fucking lol if you and your best male friends aren't fucking each other in the ass srs
> 
> @Dr. Boe Jangles Esq.
> ...


They experience mild pain amidst a fulfilling life. It's negligible when compared to the benefits of living, and the exceptions are an acceptable loss.


> Pissing somebody off is a fantastic way of making sure that you'll never make them believe what you believe.
> When people like you they're like wet cement, when they're mad they get dry.


This is a ridiculously dumb argument, and reeks of NEET philosophy. The point isn't so much to convince you as it is to shame you for being stupid.

And I made an argument, which you failed to refute. My argument is that the suffering of people who do nothing with their lives isn't really a problem, because we're continuing the species and trying to create people of merit. 
It doesn't matter if you experience pain, no one individual matters all that much.


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## The Jumping Dwarf (Feb 25, 2017)

Well, if you never wanted to live in the first place, you can fix that.


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## Mason Verger (Feb 25, 2017)

OP: "I NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN!"
(slams bedroom door, cries into pillow)


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## The Fool (Feb 25, 2017)

I was too drunk to see how autistic this thread was last night but holy shit this is embarrassing.
Isn't it like a common incel argument that they were raped and entitled to free sex because they didn't ask to be born?


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 25, 2017)

The Fool said:


> I was too drunk to see how autistic this thread was last night but holy shit this is embarrassing.
> Isn't it like a common incel argument that they were raped and entitled to free sex because they didn't ask to be born?


It is, but it's more a general NEET thing. They make a complete fucking hash of their life and start dwelling in some abstract philosophical wank because they need it to be someone else's fault.



Jason Genova said:


> still no arguments on the points in post #18, just a bunch of coping mechanisms and insults
> 
> never change kiwifarms


Bro, I will happily engage that shit. Any time, bae, I got you covered:
Your consent to be born isn't a factor. We're talking about the creation of new life to continue the advancement of the species. Are you actually so arrogant as to assume your consent or lack thereof is meaningful in the face such a goal?


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## Mason Verger (Feb 25, 2017)

Pain, discomfort and bad feelings are unfair, and therefor should be illigal. The fact that it's not, is ALSO unfair, and that should be illigal too.


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## Caesare (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> still no arguments on the points in post #18, just a bunch of coping mechanisms and insults
> 
> never change kiwifarms




B/C this is lame. This is retard type shit. Nobody that reads this takes it seriously, its like a thread just for kicks but its not funny. It needs to die asap.


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## ICametoLurk (Feb 25, 2017)

Shiversblood said:


> It is NOT POSSIBLE to rape someone who has not been born.


What if your dick is so big that it goes into the baby too?

Did you ever consider that happening? If it does happen then it's rape as the baby didn't consent.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 25, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> They experience mild pain amidst a fulfilling life. It's negligible when compared to the benefits of living, and the exceptions are an acceptable loss.
> 
> This is a ridiculously dumb argument, and reeks of NEET philosophy. The point isn't so much to convince you as it is to shame you for being stupid.
> 
> ...





Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> It is, but it's more a general NEET thing. They make a complete fucking hash of their life and start dwelling in some abstract philosophical wank because they need it to be someone else's fault.
> 
> 
> Bro, I will happily engage that shit. Any time, bae, I got you covered:
> Your consent to be born isn't a factor. We're talking about the creation of new life to continue the advancement of the species. Are you actually so arrogant as to assume your consent or lack thereof is meaningful in the face such a goal?


There is no "species" that exists outside of the DNA of individuals. It's a class that individual organisms are placed in.

The "species" doesn't advance, individuals do.

Before you spew out more of your insults let me ask you this. Are these three statements true?
1. People do not give consent to be born.
2. Being a human being means there is a certainty that you will experience pain in your lifetime.
3. Human births are preventable.

If these statements are true then that means that having kids should be considered immoral by most people's moral beliefs and that people who have children are entirely responsible for the suffering of their children, because they could have prevented 100% of it by taking another course of action.

What's this need to insult bro? Did I offend you? It's hard to believe that if I made a thread about math that you thought was wrong or some other subject that you don't care about you would still be doing this.
What specific part of my post offended you?


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## Alberto Balsalm (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> What's this need to insult bro? Did I offend you? It's hard to believe that if I made a thread about math that you thought was wrong or some other subject that you don't care about you would still be doing this.
> What specific part of my post offended you?


You're the only person in the thread who seems offended tbh. You formatted your OP like a shitpost, proposed a philosophy that's massively impractical, and then got mad when people didn't take you seriously, like nigga what the fuck were you thinking?


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## Mason Verger (Feb 25, 2017)

Will this all make more sense when the police release this as a "shooters manifesto"?


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## The Fool (Feb 25, 2017)

This should be common sense, but, _fetuses cannot give consent to anything_
I really have no idea what this argument is about. If you're upset that you were born, let me echo a few other posts in saying, you have full right to end your own life. Not being born and ending your life aren't too different from one another, the point is that your existence doesn't continue, which seems to be what you're arguing for(?)


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## Jason Genova (Feb 25, 2017)

The Fool said:


> This should be common sense, but, _fetuses cannot give consent to anything_
> I really have no idea what this argument is about. If you're upset that you were born, let me echo a few other posts in saying, you have full right to end your own life. Not being born and ending your life aren't too different from one another, the point is that your existence doesn't continue, which seems to be what you're arguing for(?)


I'm saying that having kids should be considered wrong by most people's moral beliefs (if they were being rational).
If people were logically consistent having children would be illegal.


Mason Verger said:


> Will this all make more sense when the police release this as a "shooters manifesto"?


your avatar reminds me of one of my favorite videos bro


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> There is no "species" that exists outside of the DNA of individuals. It's a class that individual organisms are placed in.
> 
> The "species" doesn't advance, individuals do.
> 
> ...


Oh no, by all means, I can do this forever:
Of course there's a species. We're all connected, after all. The achievements and discoveries of one are made to enrich the lives of all. Vaccines, technology, alternative fuels, all of these advance the collective good.
Then there's the parasites, people who advance nothing, contribute nothing, and are nothing. They're usually lonely and unhappy, and they deserve that, because their existence is a net loss to society. They cost something, because they eat up resources, and contribute nothing in return for those resources, so the simple way to look at it is that they're a poor investment from a big picture standpoint.

As for your little statements, you're tossing out some basic ideas and drawing absurd conclusions based soley on the premise they are true. You fail to consider, for example, that most people find that small amount of suffering perfectly acceptable when weighed against the joys life has to offer. It's a fair exchange, you see, so by bringing people into the world, you are giving them some momentary discomforts in exchange for a lifetime of fulfillment and happiness.
The only way that's not a fair price is if you're some kind of pissbaby who can't handle a little hardship, in which case who gives a shit whether or not you "consented" to shit?
Why is it our problem?


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## AnOminous (Feb 25, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> Before you spew out more of your insults let me ask you this. Are these three statements true?
> 1. People do not give consent to be born.
> 2. Being a human being means there is a certainty that you will experience pain in your lifetime.
> 3. Human births are preventable.
> ...



But the determining factor in whether it's moral or not is the aggregate outcome, not incidental outcomes.  It's sort of like saying that wearing seatbelts is immoral because sometimes, they'll trap you in a burning car, being trapped in a burning car is bad, and therefore, you should never do something that results in being trapped in a burning car, while disregarding the usually positive outcomes.

It's also ridiculous to talk about the consent of someone who doesn't exist.  Nonexistent people don't have any preferences, and therefore, can't have any protectable interests.  Only later in the development of a human being, when they're actually a person, do they have any preferences.


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## yeehaw (Feb 25, 2017)

People shouldn't have kids but it's not because of whatever the fuck you're talking about, it's because kids suck.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 25, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> Oh no, by all means, I can do this forever:
> Of course there's a species. We're all connected, after all. The achievements and discoveries of one are made to enrich the lives of all. Vaccines, technology, alternative fuels, all of these advance the collective good.
> Then there's the parasites, people who advance nothing, contribute nothing, and are nothing. They're usually lonely and unhappy, and they deserve that, because their existence is a net loss to society. They cost something, because they eat up resources, and contribute nothing in return for those resources, so the simple way to look at it is that they're a poor investment from a big picture standpoint.
> 
> ...


1. No there's no "species" that exists in 3d space, your species is the type of thing you are. The "species" doesn't advance, individual humans do.
2. Life's discomforts have been forced on you by being born, you didn't ask for that but it happened anyway.
3. It is completely unknown to the parent what kind of life their child will have, even if the family is wealthy the child could get some kind of cancer or some other kind of problem that makes their life miserable.
4. The hardships that we have in life haven't been chosen, they were forced.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> 1. No there's no "species" that exists in 3d space, your species is the type of thing you are. The "species" doesn't advance, individual humans do.
> 2. Life's discomforts have been forced on you by being born, you didn't ask for that but it happened anyway.
> 3. It is completely unknown to the parent what kind of life their child will have, even if the family is wealthy the child could get some kind of cancer or some other kind of problem that makes their life miserable.
> 4. The hardships that we have in life haven't been chosen, they were forced.


1. Yes, there is. If someone creates something and offers it to the public, you can access and take advantage of it. How is this complex?
2. Boohoo. Overcome them and thrive. Be a man.
3. So avoid doing anything because it may not turn out well. How's that NEET philosophy worked out for you personally?
4. Yeah, life is hard, and the measure of a person's worth is what they do with that. How is that cruel? You're given the chance to be something.


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## The Fool (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> I'm saying that having kids should be considered wrong by most people's moral beliefs (if they were being rational).
> If people were logically consistent having children would be illegal.



Oh no, who would have thought, _people make mistakes!_ le gasp. There's no such thing as a perfect parent. The mistakes parents make of raising their children are the deviations that shape the unique personality of the child so they can grow up to bend the world to their will. Or they can grow up to be the very same thing this forum mocks. There's no such thing as a 100% good outcome of everything in the real world. The best thing you can do is accept it and learn to control it, not pretend the real world shouldn't exist as you're implying. Don't want to have kids? Fine, don't have kids. Other people are more than willing to give parenthood a try, and most are successful at it.



Jason Genova said:


> 1. No there's no "species" that exists in 3d space, your species is the type of thing you are. The "species" doesn't advance, individual humans do.
> 2. Life's discomforts have been forced on you by being born, you didn't ask for that but it happened anyway.
> 3. It is completely unknown to the parent what kind of life their child will have, even if the family is wealthy the child could get some kind of cancer or some other kind of problem that makes their life miserable.
> 4. The hardships that we have in life haven't been chosen, they were forced.



1. You're disregarding the entire theory of evolution. Yes, species do advance. If one type of species dies too much, another will be more successful and take it's place of dominance. Evolution doesn't give a single shit about individuals, they reproduce and die quickly. Humans remember other humans, but nature sure doesn't.
2. Yeah, that's called life. What, do you want to live a life where you're never in any discomfort? I implore you to watch the Twilight Zone episode _"A Nice Place To Visit"_ to see exactly what you're asking for. Discomfort is the spice of life, it shapes you, teaches you, it's the best thing that could happen to you in between your spirts of pleasure and comfort. This is the basic principle of Ying and Yang, there is no comfort without discomfort. It doesn't matter how comfortable your life is, you will always find something to complain about.
3. Again, people die. That's nature. You've actually contradicted your point about individuals advancing rather than the species as a whole. If someone with bad genes die, they die. They don't get to reproduce. That's evolution.
4. See point 2. As the old saying goes, "learn how to fall gracefully". If you can't deal with hardships, boo hoo, you die, and someone who _can_ deal with them will take your place. Don't like it? Suicide has been an option since the dawn of man.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 26, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> 1. Yes, there is. If someone creates something and offers it to the public, you can access and take advantage of it. How is this complex?
> 2. Boohoo. Overcome them and thrive. Be a man.
> 3. So avoid doing anything because it may not turn out well. How's that NEET philosophy worked out for you personally?
> 4. Yeah, life is hard, and the measure of a person's worth is what they do with that. How is that cruel? You're given the chance to be something.


1. No, there is no object in space called "the species", the species is a bunch of different organisms who have similar genetic traits. We have to talk about each individual life because "humanity" is made up of individuals.
2. You're turning this into a thing about me, not into a thing about logic, if it immoral for people to expose those who have not consented to it to pain it literally *has* to be immoral to have children.
3. You're talking about me, not what I'm saying, again.
4. If exposing somebody to pain who can't consent to experiencing that pain is cruel then having children must logically be cruel.


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## AnOminous (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> 1. No, there is no object in space called "the species", the species is a bunch of different organisms who have similar genetic traits. We have to talk about each individual life because "humanity" is made up of individuals.



That's just retarded.  Not every thing that exists is an "object in space."  By that token, "consent" doesn't exist either, so who gives a fuck about consent?  "Consent" isn't an object in space either.  Neither are "rights."  So if you reject the idea of a "species" because it isn't an "object in space," even though it actually is an identifiable group of living objects that certainly do exist in space, then nobody should take seriously any other nonsense you say about things like "consent," which don't have any physical existence at all.


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## Hui (Feb 26, 2017)

The Jumping Dwarf said:


> Well, if you never wanted to live in the first place, you can fix that.


Kinda want to now because I recognize that character.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> 1. No, there is no object in space called "the species", the species is a bunch of different organisms who have similar genetic traits. We have to talk about each individual life because "humanity" is made up of individuals.
> 2. You're turning this into a thing about me, not into a thing about logic, if it immoral for people to expose those who have not consented to it to pain it literally *has* to be immoral to have children.
> 3. You're talking about me, not what I'm saying, again.
> 4. If exposing somebody to pain who can't consent to experiencing that pain is cruel then having children must logically be cruel.


@AnOminous has the right of it.
If you refuse to acknowledge something as simple as community because it's not a tangible, corporeal object, I'd just as soon disregard the concept of consent or morality. They aren't physical objects, after all. Thus, nether morality or consent exists, and our conundrum is solved.
As for addressing you, your arguments are so absurd and come from such a place of personal bias, I figured I'd just address the obvious, which is that this is coming from a place of personal pain, not rationality.


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## Lorento (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> 1. No there's no "species" that exists in 3d space, your species is the type of thing you are. The "species" doesn't advance, individual humans do.
> 2. Life's discomforts have been forced on you by being born, you didn't ask for that but it happened anyway.
> 3. It is completely unknown to the parent what kind of life their child will have, even if the family is wealthy the child could get some kind of cancer or some other kind of problem that makes their life miserable.
> 4. The hardships that we have in life haven't been chosen, they were forced.



We are the greatest and most successful species ever created on this Earth. It is pain, suffering, love and joy that have given us the power to become that species. You are a faggot and would have been thrown from the Tarpeian Rock for being such a whiny sounding dude.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 26, 2017)

AnOminous said:


> That's just exceptional.  Not every thing that exists is an "object in space."  By that token, "consent" doesn't exist either, so who gives a fuck about consent?  "Consent" isn't an object in space either.  Neither are "rights."  So if you reject the idea of a "species" because it isn't an "object in space," even though it actually is an identifiable group of living objects that certainly do exist in space, then nobody should take seriously any other nonsense you say about things like "consent," which don't have any physical existence at all.


oh YEAH? HOW ABOUT YOU LOG OUT ONCE IN AWHILE
HUH? HOW ABOUT THAT?


Spoiler



But really bro, the only reason I even talked about the species thing in the first place is because dr. bojangles or whatever his name is brought it up. He said that the suffering of the individual doesn't matter because this spooky thing called "the species" must progress. I said that the suffering of individual people must matter because the group called "the species" is made up of individuals. I also do agree that "consent" doesn't exist in 3d space but if we're going to be logically consistent and say that inflicting pain on others without their consent is immoral* (which most people consider it to be)* then giving birth to children should be no different.





Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> @AnOminous has the right of it.
> If you refuse to acknowledge something as simple as community because it's not a tangible, corporeal object, I'd just as soon disregard the concept of consent or morality. They aren't physical objects, after all. Thus, nether morality or consent exists, and our conundrum is solved.
> As for addressing you, your arguments are so absurd and come from such a place of personal bias, I figured I'd just address the obvious, which is that this is coming from a place of personal pain, not rationality.


Yeah my dude, it's a hypothetical imperative.
Do you care about being moral? Do you believe that it is wrong to cause others to suffer when you can choose not to cause it?

I mean if you're a murderer this obviously doesn't matter.
If *YOU* believe that causing others to suffer when you could choose not to is immoral and that immoral actions should be avoided if possible then you shouldn't have kids.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> Yeah my dude, it's a hypothetical imperative.
> Do you care about being moral? Do you believe that it is wrong to cause others to suffer when you can choose not to cause it?


To be entirely honest? Not really.
I believe that, at least in the first world, 90% of all suffering is self inflicted via terrible choices and garden variety stupid. I don't see it as my moral imperative to solve it because I don't believe in saving people from the natural consequences of their dumb fucking choices.
I'm not about to declare that people need to stop reproducing simply because a few of their kids may be fuckups who create situations for themselves in which they suffer. They should suffer, they made shit choices and fucked up. Their suffering will serve as an objective lesson to others about the importance of not being a fuckup. I feel that's a noble goal.

You still have yet to acknowledge the hole in your logic. If you refuse to acknowledge society existing as an interconnected network of individuals striving for a common good, simply on the basic that it isn't a physical object, how could we ever acknowledge morality or consent? They are no more physically real. My argument remains that the benefit new life offers us vastly outweighs the cost of some occasional unhappiness or a few miserable people. Make an omelet, break eggs, and so on. Any one individual doesn't matter on the broader scope.

If you were hoping to weasel out of this paradox by an appeal to my sense of morality or compassion, you clearly haven't hung around here very long.


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## DuskEngine (Feb 26, 2017)

You ever read Zapffe, OP?


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## Jason Genova (Feb 26, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> To be entirely honest? Not really.
> I believe that, at least in the first world, 90% of all suffering is self inflicted via terrible choices and garden variety stupid. I don't see it as my moral imperative to solve it because I don't believe in saving people from the natural consequences of their dumb fucking choices.
> I'm not about to declare that people need to stop reproducing simply because a few of their kids may be fuckups who create situations for themselves in which they suffer. They should suffer, they made shit choices and fucked up. Their suffering will serve as an objective lesson to others about the importance of not being a fuckup. I feel that's a noble goal.
> 
> ...


*"I believe that, at least in the first world, 90% of all suffering is self inflicted via terrible choices and garden variety stupid. I don't see it as my moral imperative to solve it because I don't believe in saving people from the natural consequences of their dumb fucking choices.
I'm not about to declare that people need to stop reproducing simply because a few of their kids may be fuckups who create situations for themselves in which they suffer. They should suffer, they made shit choices and fucked up. Their suffering will serve as an objective lesson to others about the importance of not being a fuckup. I feel that's a noble goal."
*
This is cope, the vast majority of people will experience suffering in their lifetime regardless of their choices (especially if they don't somehow die off as infants).

*"You still have yet to acknowledge the hole in your logic. If you refuse to acknowledge society existing as an interconnected network of individuals striving for a common good, simply on the basic that it isn't a physical object, how could we ever acknowledge morality or consent? They are no more physically real. My argument remains that the benefit new life offers us vastly outweighs the cost of some occasional unhappiness or a few miserable people. Make an omelet, break eggs, and so on. Any one individual doesn't matter on the broader scope."
*
Every individual definitely matters to the person who cares about morality because this spooky thing called "society" is made up of individuals, "society" only advances when a large portion of individual humans advance.
I don't reject the idea of society because it doesn't take up space, I do it because it really doesn't do me much good to believe in it or to see humans as a "connected" group rather than a bunch if individuals.

You don't HAVE to care about morality, I didn't say that I even did, but if you do care about morality then chances are you have a moral code that would not allow having children if it was consistent.


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## AnOminous (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> You don't HAVE to care about morality, I didn't say that I even did, but if you do care about morality then chances are you have a moral code that would not allow having children if it was consistent.



Nonsense.  If the vast majority of people are actually happy about being born, and the net effect of reproduction is to increase the sum total of happiness, then it is actually immoral not to have children.  If the sole criterion for the good of an action is pain reduction, and nothing else, then the obvious thing to do is kill everyone who is suffering pain.  That would be everyone.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> This is cope, the vast majority of people will experience suffering in their lifetime regardless of their choices (especially if they don't somehow die off as infants).


So we're to voluntarily drive the human race to extinction over a few skinned knees and bad breakups, then?
In what world is that logical?
Also, I'd avoid calling things "cope", it reeks of incel, and we tend to eat those around here.


Jason Genova said:


> Every individual definitely matters to the person who cares about morality because this spooky thing called "society" is made up of individuals, "society" only advances when a large portion of individual humans advance.
> I don't reject the idea of society because it doesn't take up space, I do it because it really doesn't do me much good to believe in it or to see humans as a "connected" group rather than a bunch if individuals.
> 
> You don't HAVE to care about morality, I didn't say that I even did, but if you do care about morality then chances are you have a moral code that would not allow having children if it was consistent.


At what point did you become so goddamn important? It's not about whether it helps you, it's if it helps everyone. If you view this as simply being about you, then yeah, maybe your life sucks and you regret being born. Why then would we care?


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## Jason Genova (Feb 26, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> So we're to voluntarily drive the human race to extinction over a few skinned knees and bad breakups, then?
> In what world is that logical?
> Also, I'd avoid calling things "cope", it reeks of incel, and we tend to eat those around here.
> 
> At what point did you become so goddamn important? It's not about whether it helps you, it's if it helps everyone. If you view this as simply being about you, then yeah, maybe your life sucks and you regret being born. Why then would we care?


I don't know bro, you just keep slinging insults and trying to make this about ME, instead of what I'm saying.
*"I'm not insulting you bro I'm just shaming you because you're fucking dumb and I know better than you lol."*
I don't care about being called names by some fucking bored dudes on a forum who make fun of people with disabilities (meanwhile many of them are still playing videogames in their 20s, just lol).
By most people's definition of "morality" giving birth *has to logically be immoral* because:
1. Being born basically guarantees that you will be experiencing suffering.
2. People's actions cause you to be born.
3. People could prevent all of the suffering that you will experience in your life by not having you.
4. Everyone is well aware of how they could act to prevent birth from occurring.
5. They choose to have children anyway, despite being aware on some level that these things are true.

We decide that other crimes are immoral the same way that birth could be considered immoral.


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## The Fool (Feb 26, 2017)

I'd just like to point out that finding some sort of technicality or system for morality is fucking hilarious and a huge oxymoron

there are a lot of great works that criticize human morality, play with it, mix it up, because it's so inherently illogical that you can make up mean down and black mean white with just a little change of perspective and a decent argument. _The Mysterious Stranger_ is one you should know.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 26, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> I don't know bro, you just keep slinging insults and trying to make this about ME, instead of what I'm saying.
> *"I'm not insulting you bro I'm just shaming you because you're fucking dumb and I know better than you lol."*
> I don't care about being called names by some fucking bored dudes on a forum who make fun of people with disabilities (meanwhile many of them are still playing videogames in their 20s, just lol).
> By most people's definition of "morality" giving birth *has to logically be immoral* because:
> ...


Don't try to whip your dick out here, friendo. I'd be willing to bet I make your annual income in about a month and a half. And after work, I do indeed enjoy the odd round of Overwatch, so I guess I'd say I'm doing just fine on both fronts, thanks much.
You know, this is getting sad, let's just go ahead and drop the pretense:
See, the thing here is that this is entirely about you. Nobody is here because they see this thread as worth a serious discussion. Not me, not @AnOminous, not the other posters, not the lurkers. Go ahead, ask them, see if they're super invested in the actual topic as opposed to the poster, I'll wait. 
See, this isn't r/incel, this is Kiwi Farms. And what we have here is some weird little fuck who wandered in and pitched a fit because "BABIES ARE IMMORAL BECAUSE PAIN, GUIZ!!!". So, being Kiwi Farms, we pop in and poke the little spastic, because he might do something funny.
You're tossing up a bunch of bold red text, getting all defensive and spouting this crazy shit, and that's the point.
Sorry, braheim, but if this thread seems like it's just focused on you personally, that's mostly because it is.


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## Mason Verger (Feb 26, 2017)

Debating theoretical higher morality on kiwi farms? Wrong bar, buddy. We're all big fans of immorality around here.


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## DatBepisTho (Feb 27, 2017)

By that logic, wouldn't that "having children is immoral" philosophy be no better than the "have kids because this deity said so" people who expect women to be constantly barefoot and pregnant until she either straight up dies from complications or is no longer able to bear children? Especialy with total disregard to whether or not the woman even wants kids or is into cock in the first place. 

Because fuck that noise. Have kids and be responsible for them if you do, or don't have kids and do something productive with your life. All actions have consequences- good or bad- anyway. The best you can do is live and minimize the bad consequences for yourself and, should you choose to have them, your offspring.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 27, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> Don't try to whip your dick out here, friendo. I'd be willing to bet I make your annual income in about a month and a half. And after work, I do indeed enjoy the odd round of Overwatch, so I guess I'd say I'm doing just fine on both fronts, thanks much.
> You know, this is getting sad, let's just go ahead and drop the pretense:
> See, the thing here is that this is entirely about you. Nobody is here because they see this thread as worth a serious discussion. Not me, not @AnOminous, not the other posters, not the lurkers. Go ahead, ask them, see if they're super invested in the actual topic as opposed to the poster, I'll wait.
> See, this isn't r/incel, this is Kiwi Farms. And what we have here is some weird little fuck who wandered in and pitched a fit because "BABIES ARE IMMORAL BECAUSE PAIN, GUIZ!!!". So, being Kiwi Farms, we pop in and poke the little spastic, because he might do something funny.
> ...


*"Don't try to whip your dick out here, friendo. I'd be willing to bet I make your annual income in about a month and a half. And after work, I do indeed enjoy the odd round of Overwatch, so I guess I'd say I'm doing just fine on both fronts, thanks much."*
Cool, I'm glad.
*"See, the thing here is that this is entirely about you. Nobody is here because they see this thread as worth a serious discussion."*
It's not, I haven't been arguing about me, I've been arguing about birth.
*"See, this isn't r/incel, this is Kiwi Farms."*
Does anybody actually go there? Seems like 5 dudes with 100 alts each posting the same shit over and over.
*"And what we have here is some weird little fuck who wandered in and pitched a fit because "BABIES ARE IMMORAL BECAUSE PAIN, GUIZ!!!". So, being Kiwi Farms, we pop in and poke the little spastic, because he might do something funny."*
You just threw around some insults and see yourself as some grand torturer, lol just lol.
*"Sorry, braheim, but if this thread seems like it's just focused on you personally, that's mostly because it is."*
I just want this thread to fade now. It got ruined by legit coping mechanisms.


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## AnOminous (Feb 27, 2017)

You've been here over two months now.  Learn how to quote.


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## Lorento (Feb 27, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> I don't know bro, you just keep slinging insults and trying to make this about ME, instead of what I'm saying.
> *"I'm not insulting you bro I'm just shaming you because you're fucking dumb and I know better than you lol."*
> I don't care about being called names by some fucking bored dudes on a forum who make fun of people with disabilities (meanwhile many of them are still playing videogames in their 20s, just lol).
> By most people's definition of "morality" giving birth *has to logically be immoral* because:
> ...



I'd say that you have a good point. Indeed, if suffering is inevitable, then why is life even a thing? However, your viewpoint leads to human extinction. From a purely biological point of view, you are utterly wrong and your way of doing things damns our entire species.


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## AnOminous (Feb 27, 2017)

Lorento said:


> I'd say that you have a good point. Indeed, if suffering is inevitable, then why is life even a thing? However, your viewpoint leads to human extinction. From a purely biological point of view, you are utterly wrong and your way of doing things damns our entire species.



Well, that _is_ kind of the point of antinatalism.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 27, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> *"Don't try to whip your dick out here, friendo. I'd be willing to bet I make your annual income in about a month and a half. And after work, I do indeed enjoy the odd round of Overwatch, so I guess I'd say I'm doing just fine on both fronts, thanks much."*
> Cool, I'm glad.
> *"See, the thing here is that this is entirely about you. Nobody is here because they see this thread as worth a serious discussion."*
> It's not, I haven't been arguing about me, I've been arguing about birth.
> ...


Awww, now he's all grumpy.
Learn to quote, stop using "cope" like it's a thing adults say, make better threads, try not to get all huffy when people laugh at your silly ideas.
And tell us a little more about you, while we're at it. What got you into this theory?


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## Jason Genova (Feb 27, 2017)

AnOminous said:


> You've been here over two months now.  Learn how to quote.


no
also what's with the utilitarian shit bro?


Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> Awww, now he's all grumpy.
> Learn to quote, stop using "cope" like it's a thing adults say, make better threads, try not to get all huffy when people laugh at your silly ideas.
> And tell us a little more about you, while we're at it. What got you into this theory?


RA's youtube vid, he deleted it because he doesn't agree with it anymore (coping), but it had good refutations of the "arguments" made against antinatalism.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 27, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> no
> also what's with the utilitarian shit bro?
> 
> RA's youtube vid, he deleted it because he doesn't agree with it anymore (coping), but it had good refutations of the "arguments" made against antinatalism.


I have no idea who RA is, but I have never seen anything remotely insightful in the form of a youtube video.
Try books. Or making the point yourself without having to lean on the works of others.


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## Jason Genova (Feb 27, 2017)

Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> I have no idea who RA is, but I have never seen anything remotely insightful in the form of a youtube video.
> Try books. Or making the point yourself without having to lean on the works of others.


RA = rebel absurdity, the guy I mentioned in my first post
*"I have never seen anything remotely insightful in the form of a youtube video"*
Probably because you watch vinesauce and h3h3 and other stuff with no informative value.
*"Try books."*
It doesn't matter where information comes from, fully understanding it does.
Some books are ok, many (especially dealing with philosophy) are filled with confusing metaphors and have entire pages worth of content that will be forgotten after finishing the book.
*"Or making the point yourself without having to lean on the works of others."*
His video inspired my ideas, just like the vast majority of ideas come from outside inspiration.
Neither science nor philosophy could advance without leaning on the works of others to a degree.
There is no such thing as an independent human being, we all require other humans and organisms to survive.


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## AnOminous (Feb 27, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> no



Okay then expect to get treated like a fucking tard.


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## Gym Leader Elesa (Feb 27, 2017)

I'm going to sound like such a shitty kiss ass but watching AnOminous and Dr. Boe jangles take this sped down was almost fucking painful it was like watching ISIS try to hand-to-hand a Navy Seal.


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 27, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> RA = rebel absurdity, the guy I mentioned in my first post
> *"I have never seen anything remotely insightful in the form of a youtube video"*
> Probably because you watch vinesauce and h3h3 and other stuff with no informative value.


Again, never heard of 'em.
I like animation, comedy, and this one nature dude who talks about animals. Also, there's a few neat science shows.


Jason Genova said:


> *"Try books."*
> It doesn't matter where information comes from, fully understanding it does.
> Some books are ok, many (especially dealing with philosophy) are filled with confusing metaphors and have entire pages worth of content that will be forgotten after finishing the book.


Ahhh ok.
So you're stupid.


Jason Genova said:


> Neither science nor philosophy could advance without leaning on the works of others to a degree.
> There is no such thing as an independent human being, we all require other humans and organisms to survive.


And yet you deny the idea of community or common good.

You can't just pick and choose.
Also, learn to quote. This is just getting kinda sad. If you can't even figure that out, why would we even start to listen to you?


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## The Fool (Feb 27, 2017)

quoting properly is painful, you bigots


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## Jason Genova (Feb 28, 2017)

AnOminous said:


> Okay then expect to get treated like a fucking tard.


my bffs already do that, no adjustment needed


Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. said:


> Again, never heard of 'em.
> I like animation, comedy, and this one nature dude who talks about animals. Also, there's a few neat science shows.
> 
> Ahhh ok.
> ...


*"Ahhh ok.
So you're stupid."*
More meaningless name-calling, save the energy in your fingers please.
*"And yet you deny the idea of community or common good."*
Society is a spook, just like morality, race, mathematics, etc.
So yes, most people can choose to care about some mental concepts (math, logic, morality, etc.) while disregarding ones they find less useful (race, nationality, etc.)

Saying "you can't pick and choose" only applies to some situations.
If I say "the entire bible is true" I can't pick and choose which I want to talk about and live by.
If I say "parts of the bible are true" I can pick and choose as I want.

I never said "all mental concepts are useless", if I did I would have to stop using math in any capacity at all to not contradict myself.

*"Also, learn to quote. This is just getting kinda sad. If you can't even figure that out, why would we even start to listen to you"*
My ability to do that has no effect on my argument.
I can strict military press 270, if you can't strict military press 270 why should I listen to you bro?


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## Dr. Boe Jangles Esq. (Feb 28, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> my bffs already do that, no adjustment needed
> 
> *"Ahhh ok.
> So you're stupid."*
> More meaningless name-calling, save the energy in your fingers please.


No, I'm quite serious. You can't figure out how to quote, just said that books are too confusing for you, and have struggled with a clear line of thought since the thread started. 
Have you considered that thinking may not be your thing?


Jason Genova said:


> *"And yet you deny the idea of community or common good."*
> Society is a spook, just like morality, race, mathematics, etc.
> So yes, most people can choose to care about some mental concepts (math, logic, morality, etc.) while disregarding ones they find less useful (race, nationality, etc.)
> 
> ...


I think it's more that you've preemptively drawn the conclusion that having children is immoral (again, I suspect more for reason of personal issues than rational thought) and now you're just scrambling to find rationale that justifies this forgone conclusion.
In other words, you're drawing reason from a conclusion, not conclusions from reasoning.


Jason Genova said:


> *"Also, learn to quote. This is just getting kinda sad. If you can't even figure that out, why would we even start to listen to you"*
> My ability to do that has no effect on my argument.
> I can strict military press 270, if you can't strict military press 270 why should I listen to you bro?


My, how impressive. 
I would like to see that. Post a video of you doing that while discussing antinatalism. We pinkie promise we won't dox you, and aren't working on doing so already.

And learn to quote. Also, generally you want to stop using the term "bffs" after about 14 or so, princess.
Just a tip. If you're one of those loveshy kids, a grown man saying "bffs" may be part of what's hurting your game.


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## The Fool (Feb 28, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> *"Also, learn to quote. This is just getting kinda sad. If you can't even figure that out, why would we even start to listen to you"*
> My ability to do that has no effect on my argument.
> I can strict military press 270, if you can't strict military press 270 why should I listen to you bro?



I can do 271 and you're gay


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## Jason Genova (Feb 28, 2017)

The Fool said:


> I can do 271 and *you're gay*


wtf
how did you know?!


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## Florence (Feb 28, 2017)

Jason Genova said:


> wtf
> how did you know?!


You're a cow on here. Tbh it would be more surprising if you _weren't._


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## Montalbane (May 30, 2021)

Necroing this thread
Because OP is a little bitch.


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