# The Opioid Crisis



## Crunchy Leaf (Apr 14, 2018)

Every week there's another article about another person who had to be Narcan'd 17 times, or another mother getting arrested because her toddler accidentally overdosed, or another rural hospital with a NICU overflowing with babies born with neonatal abstinence syndrome. And the death toll goes up and up and up.

What do you think's going to happen? We don't have a massive crack epidemic anymore, which gives me hope that things can improve, but I think opioids are going to be a way bigger problem than crack ever was, for a lot longer.


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## JSGOTI (Apr 14, 2018)

That's a really good question, and you're going to get a whole world of divisive responses depending on who you ask.

Due to my proximity of being around first responders(emt and police) on a regular basis, I get to hear the stories and horrors of what they have to deal with. From the same vagrant getting narcanned five times in the same afternoon, to people being revived and starting a brawl with first responders because they ruined their $15 high. Hell, I believe one of our own kiwis shared a story of a patient getting revived and then running into traffic and getting run over and killed after breaking free from the first responders.

A popular consensus from many of them is a one and done. Equip the first responders with tattoo guns or such and mark those that get revived. If they have the mark, call it a day and slab them. 

Unfortunately, that's not something that will ever be acted upon, nor could they consciously ignore an overdosing victim, even if they wanted to.

It's a shit deal no matter how it's looked at, and with fentanyl/carfentanyl rearing its ugly head it's only going to get even worse.


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## Caesare (Apr 14, 2018)

I think it's going to carry on pretty much the same way it has since the 1950's when it first really started getting attention. It's always been an issue, it just gets more media coverage now. The policy makers are going to go too far, use ridiculous measures to try and curb the issue which in turn makes it harder for people with legit pain to get what they need, basically what they've been doing on and off since the 80's. As the doctors are coerced into not writing narcotics prescriptions by overzealous lawmakers, the fiends simply move on to more illicit options.

Crack cocaine use is as widespread now as it ever was, but since that's a comparatively safe addiction we don't hear about it so much anymore. The crack "epidemic" was just another big media story when crack first came around. They like to have things like this happen, it justifies their job and gives them something to talk about.



JSGOTI said:


> Unfortunately, that's not something that will ever be acted upon, nor could they consciously ignore an overdosing victim, even if they wanted to.
> 
> It's a shit deal no matter how it's looked at, and with fentanyl/carfentanyl rearing its ugly head it's only going to get even worse.



And this is exacerbated by the heavy handed approach of lawmakers. You have pill takers graduating to dope once the pills dry up, so naturally you're going to have more overdoses. It's unpleasant, but I don't know if there is much they can do besides increasing access to treatment. There's options available for addicts, but they gotta want to get help.


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## The Great Chandler (Apr 14, 2018)

No solutions over this epidemic? That sucks.


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## Bassomatic (Apr 14, 2018)

I've seen this shit ruin far too many lives. Most of all of it I've seen people had serious issues and ended up on  it, but many got hooked by no fault of their own. They followed to a letter what a doc told them, had good normal lives and the fucking demon that stuff is sucked them in.

I'm talking about I've seen it, car wreck, need meds to function.. take meds as doc says... next year pawning shit. That is not a fun path, not a oh let's be a degenerate and party etc.

What ever solves it, I'll be beyond greatful but we need to find meds that don't grab us so well I mean if you read how this shit works it's party central for your nervous system, how do we deal with pain and not give you something like this.

The other is find how to help people before they feel so discontent broken and  worthless that a needle in their arm is more appealing than a family, career, or hobbies.


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## BoingBoingBoi (Apr 14, 2018)

i think we'll see the status quo maintained indefinitely. the market is too big, and the demand is too voracious. 

people are gonna get hurt no matter what and need painkillers. they're also gonna find doctors who will prescribe them copious amounts. they're gonna take those copious amounts to work and sell them to colleagues, getting others hooked. they'll build a tolerance until they start basing, and the cycle will continue. 

it needs to be a grassroots effort. you cant rely on doctors not prescribing or on the medical industry coming up with an equally effective non-addictive miracle painkiller out of nowhere. the only thing to do is talk to the people in your live struggling with addiction and try and convince them to get help. raise awareness, shill for rehab programs, volunteer, etc. the solution will not come from on high. unfortunately though that means things will be basically the way they are for quite some time.


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## Flowers For Sonichu (Apr 15, 2018)

This shit is a plague. I've buried too many friends because of it. 

What can we do? 

Legalize medicinal marijuana and grow crops with low THC/high CBD content so you can relieve pain without getting people high. You can make edibles out of it. 

In order to obtain an oxy/vicodin/etc prescription, it has to be reviewed by an independent panel, or at least revoke the licenses of shady doctors who hand it out like candy. 

Give amnesty to people who call medical help for their friends who overdosed. One of my friends dropped off the face of the earth, I heard that he ODed and the people he was with let him die and hid his body somewhere because they were afraid of jail. Everyone knows who is responsible but there's no concrete evidence to pin him down.

Shut down shady online pharmacies


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## Thelostcup (Apr 15, 2018)

Maybe we should do something about all these people who need opiates to deal with how shitty their lives are.


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## Philosophy Zombie (Apr 15, 2018)

Flowers For Sonichu said:


> Legalize medicinal marijuana and grow crops with low THC/high CBD content so you can relieve pain without getting people high. You can make edibles out of it.


Cannabis isn't effective for acute pain (ex. after surgery).


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## Caesare (Apr 15, 2018)

Philosophy Nong said:


> Cannabis isn't effective for acute pain (ex. after surgery).



It's not even effective for people with long term, chronic pain.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Apr 15, 2018)

I'm really tired of pro-weed people who act like legalizing weed will solve the whole opioid crisis, both the end where people fuck up their lives by shooting heroin in a back alley and the end where disabled people can't get more than a three day supply of Perocets. I'm for legalizing weed (I voted for it in my state), and I do think it'll help somewhat. But it won't fix this.


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## Nyoom frame (Apr 15, 2018)

A lot of people get hooked because of prescription pain medication being prescribed liberally, both flooding the illegal and legal market and getting people hooked because of lack of oversight. I think some doctors or pharmaceutical people that contribute to this should be prosecuted somehow. I really don't know enough about that part of issue to offer a solution. Then again, it's not the doctor's fault that people continually take opioids to escape. The best way to stop the problem at its deepest cause, people taking opioids, is to somehow give these people some meaning, stability, and joy in their lives so they don't need to escape. I'm no expert and maybe some of what I wrote is mindlessly idealistic, but It's sorta what I think.


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## ColtWalker1847 (Apr 15, 2018)

I figure it will play out a lot like meth did. 20 years ago meth was a huge issue where I live. But lawmakers, courts, hospitals, and law enforcement worked out solutions and put them into practice. They put a lot of effort into shutting down methlabs and getting people into rehab. The shine wore off too. Tweaker became synonymous with crackhead.

That last bit is probably the strongest tool available. Unfortunately, since this all starts with dipshits abusing meds, is that they don't accept the "junkie" label until it's too late. That will change.



Nyoom frame said:


> because of prescription pain medication being prescribed liberally, both flooding the illegal and legal market and getting people hooked because of lack of oversight.


It ain't their prescriptions most of the time. People selling off their unused or stolen opiate prescriptions to pill junkies isn't a new phenomena. It's been around a long time. What made it blow up was the emergence of international online pharmacies.


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## Caesare (Apr 15, 2018)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> I'm really tired of pro-weed people who act like legalizing weed will solve the whole opioid crisis, both the end where people fuck up their lives by shooting heroin in a back alley and the end where disabled people can't get more than a three day supply of Perocets. I'm for legalizing weed (I voted for it in my state), and I do think it'll help somewhat. But it won't fix this.



The only people who seriously suggest this are pot heads who have never experienced serious pain. I'm all for marijuana legalization too but it isn't going to help 99.9% of addicts or anyone with legit pain.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Apr 15, 2018)

Coleman Francis said:


> The only people who seriously suggest this are pot heads who have never experienced serious pain. I'm all for marijuana legalization too but it isn't going to help 99.9% of addicts or anyone with legit pain.


I never get the argument that it'll help addicts, because if you can get heroin, you can get weed. I cannot fathom there being a junky who would like to smoke weed but can't get any. 

I hope that somehow a better alternative to opioids for chronic pain is developed, but I realize that's probably pretty unlikely.


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## scared sheep (Apr 18, 2018)

So I was thinking on the way back from class: for centuries, humans have partook in drug use. Opium is nothing new. In ye olden days it was easy to get it as a medicine and abuse it.
https://www.bmj.com/content/1/1464/118
So... is this really new? Humans are living longer than ever, which seems silly if addictions are taking over. We have more medical knowledge. Is there really a prescription issue, or are we simply now understanding the prevalence of addiction? Hell, I remember my own mother telling me of my great-grandmother's struggle with old anxiolytics and stuff, and her addiction back in ye old days. This isn't new at all, the more I look into it. It's simply a new awareness. What do y'all think? Is it new? Is there something I'm missing?


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## ES 148 (Apr 18, 2018)

As more drugs are developed, more people get addicted to more. 
People aren't getting worse, but they're being given more toys to hurt themselves with.


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## JustStopDude (Apr 18, 2018)

Everyone wants quick fix. 

I am amazed number of time people with chronic pain issues describe their problems and they do not realize they are describing withdraw symptoms and not actual issues due to their medical condition. 

Most people with chronic pain would be helped by maintaining lower weight, flexibility, and low impact, regular exercise. 

Good luck getting people to do this. It is easier to beg for pill. Then pill gets taken away so you buy pill from dealer. Then you realize heroin is cheaper so you chase needle. 

It is really stupid to prescribe opiates for long term pain management. Its not effective at all...but good luck telling someone that has been abusing their meds for the last couple of years they need to get off the pills.


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## CrunkLord420 (Apr 18, 2018)

LEGALIZE HERION420

They should also be giving out suboxone like candy.


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## Sanshain (Apr 18, 2018)

Nyoom frame said:


> A lot of people get hooked because of prescription pain medication being prescribed liberally, both flooding the illegal and legal market and getting people hooked because of lack of oversight. I think some doctors or pharmaceutical people that contribute to this should be prosecuted somehow. I really don't know enough about that part of issue to offer a solution. Then again, it's not the doctor's fault that people continually take opioids to escape. The best way to stop the problem at its deepest cause, people taking opioids, is to somehow give these people some meaning, stability, and joy in their lives so they don't need to escape. I'm no expert and maybe some of what I wrote is mindlessly idealistic, but It's sorta what I think.



A relative of mine suffers from serious long-term joint pain, and they were prescribed Oxycodone. How much? Six tablets per day; two in the morning, two in the afternoon, two at night. Now, since my relative is a control freak and despises feeling out of control, they purposefully only took two a day. That was _still_ enough for them to develop a dependency on. When they eventually decided to stop taking the tablets, they experienced severe short-term withdrawal symptoms. But in the end they decided it was simply better to endure the pain than continue taking the medication even at the vastly reduced dosages they were allowing themselves. Again, they were taking less than a _third_ of their prescription.

On a personal level, I was prescribed Oxycodone for a knee injury. Honestly it didn't even work. It just made me high. I took it for about two days running, then stopped simply because I didn't like how sick it started making me if I didn't keep taking it.

I don't agree with a lot of the laws that have been put in place in America to try and limit the legal prescription of opiates. But in my area at least, they are definitely over-prescribed. I didn't even need an examination or anything of the sort to get my pills; I just went for an appointment, said 'hey my knee is really messed up' (it was; I'd torn the cartilage and still have aches to this day), and before I'd even shown any real evidence of the injury besides a limp, the doctor was already offering high-strength painkillers. In the end I threw them out. Good riddance.


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## Medicated (Apr 19, 2018)

Thelostcup said:


> Maybe we should do something about all these people who need opiates to deal with how shitty their lives are.





Vrakks said:


> As more drugs are developed, more people get addicted to more.
> People aren't getting worse, but they're being given more toys to hurt themselves with.



I'm interested in why opiates are considered an epidemic, when alcohol kills more through car wrecks, violence, liver failure, and dependency.   Then we put up a "drink responsibly" sign in the window, and everything is fine.  What's the real reason here?


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## Thiletonomics (Apr 19, 2018)

Medicated said:


> I'm interested in why opiates are considered an epidemic, when alcohol kills more through car wrecks, violence, liver failure, and dependency.   Then we put up a "drink responsibly" sign in the window, and everything is fine.  What's the real reason here?



Not to mention tobacco usage too, although it's not as big due to various laws and policies to restrict tobacco usage and advertising. Is secondhand smoke from vaping a thing, like with regular cigarettes and cigars?

As for opiods, the fact that some doctors have taken advantage of the opiod crisis, by running pill mill operations, just add on to the crisis. Several pill mill operations have been featured on American Greed, and the enormous profits those dirty doctors have made are flat out disgusting.


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## Medicated (Apr 19, 2018)

Thiletonomics said:


> Not to mention tobacco usage too, although it's not as big due to various laws and policies to restrict tobacco usage and advertising. Is secondhand smoke from vaping a thing, like with regular cigarettes and cigars?
> 
> As for opiods, the fact that some doctors have taken advantage of the opiod crisis, by running pill mill operations, just add on to the crisis. Several pill mill operations have been featured on American Greed, and the enormous profits those dirty doctors have made are flat out disgusting.



Oh I see, so the pharma companies are losing out on the profits because they get cut out somewhere down the line?  I know this has nothing to do with helping people, because there are worse things that have been ignored by lawmakers longer, and virtually benign things legislated to the hilt.

So I'm wondering what the real angle is here.


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## Thelostcup (Apr 19, 2018)

Part of it I think is because when a substance becomes controlled, people mentally assign a negative association with it and anyone who uses it because a lot of folks still haven't figured out that legality != morality. There are plenty of uncontrolled drugs you can buy for cheap on the internet that have high addiction potentials and withdrawals on par with benzos yet if you tell people that it's legal when you're clearly high as balls, most of the time they'll just brush it off like they would caffeine pills.


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## Caesare (Apr 19, 2018)

scared sheep said:


> It's simply a new awareness. What do y'all think? Is it new? Is there something I'm missing?



Nope, you're not wrong at all. This isn't anything "new" or "recent". It's just another "hot" story that the media's been running with. Opiate abuse whether it be through pain medication or heroin has been an issue the entire 20th century. It really started gaining momentum in the 50s and the 60s iirc.

It get's a lot of attention in cycles whenever something sad happens, like when seemingly intelligent high school kids who were just experimenting go overboard and overdose their very first time trying drugs. If high school aged kids feel the need to "experiment" they need to stick to booze, or marijuana, maybe some acid... pain medication is not the way to go. It's too dangerous and addictive for someone just trying to get their "kicks".

And every time one of them dies after experimenting, it brings out the angry mothers who start screaming at the lawmakers, "How did this happen?! Why can our babies get these horrible things?!" All this accomplishes is putting pressure on the doctors which inconveniences individuals who need their pain medication to live halfway functional lives.



JustStopDude said:


> It is really stupid to prescribe opiates for long term pain management. Its not effective at all...but good luck telling someone that has been abusing their meds for the last couple of years they need to get off the pills.



I agree in the case of minor long term pain, as this is better handled with alternative methods: massages, Alleve/Ibuprofen, stretching, physical therapy, etc. But, there are people that have severe pain that need these narcotic medications just to function in their day to day lives. I'm talking people with awful injuries that will linger for the rest of their lives. They really have no choice but to take their pills as they are the only things allowing them to function somewhat normally.

However, the person that just swears that they absolutely need their sixty, 10mg Norco's each month for their "fibromyalgia", these people are the frauds that give a bad name to every legitimate person suffering with long term, chronic pain. Not to mention, the ones that have been getting prescribed low strength narcotics for years and years (like the fibromyalgia person I just mentioned), these are usually the type of people who are using their medicine to supplement their income.



CrunkLord420 said:


> They should also be giving out suboxone like candy.



They already do. It's not hard to find a suboxone doctor in your area who will write to you. It works pretty great for prescription narcotic addictions as it blocks the opiate receptors in the brain, thus making it a waste of money for the addict to even try and acquire pills to abuse as they won't feel their effects at all.

It's less effective for heroin users though. These people are better off going to the clinic.


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## JustStopDude (Apr 19, 2018)

I have colleague I was in military with. He got out and gets degree and becomes pharmacist. He has rural pharmacy in Kentucky. 

I visit him once because I am doing job in region. His fucking place is like bank. Bullet proof glass, armed guard and shit. I ask him "Steve, why is this like this?" 

He points out that in US, average armed robbery of bank is like $1200 in cash. But you steal one of his pill bottles (they come in big jugs), that bottle is worth like $50k in pills. And unlike US currency, there are no individual serial numbers to track on pills. He had to get his entire building re-enforced because local drove truck through the front to smash and grab. Guy got high as fuck in parking lot and never even tried to run. 

I say this is crazy. He then shows me the cameras he had to have for employees. You see casinos where card people deal and they must flash their hands in certain way to show they not pocket chips? He must make his employees do this now because they were stealing pills.  

In like 4 years, he had to participate with DEA or whatever to get three doctors to lose license for writing bullshit prescriptions. Like one of the docs is serving time for mailing him an explosive for reporting him. To get prescription filled, people have to do urinalysis onsite to show they are taking their actual meds because so many old people were just getting the pills and immediately selling them to kids. 

Fucking crazy. Tiny town America and it is like wild, wild west with these pills.


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## Medicated (Apr 20, 2018)

JustStopDude said:


> I have colleague I was in military with. He got out and gets degree and becomes pharmacist. He has rural pharmacy in Kentucky.
> 
> I visit him once because I am doing job in region. His fucking place is like bank. Bullet proof glass, armed guard and shit. I ask him "Steve, why is this like this?"
> 
> ...



What is it that makes these meds so expensive?  Are they really that cost intensive to make?


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## CrunkLord420 (Apr 20, 2018)

Medicated said:


> What is it that makes these meds so expensive?  Are they really that cost intensive to make?


No reason. You could argue that fentanyl and oxycodone need to amortize RnD costs but they're not really any different than morphine or heroin pills that have existed for over a hundred years. Nearly all opiates with the exception of a few (like Tramadol) is just refined poppy plants. https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/heroinmfg.html



Coleman Francis said:


> They already do. It's not hard to find a suboxone doctor in your area who will write to you. It works pretty great for prescription narcotic addictions as it blocks the opiate receptors in the brain, thus making it a waste of money for the addict to even try and acquire pills to abuse as they won't feel their effects at all.
> 
> It's less effective for heroin users though. These people are better off going to the clinic.


Not really, suboxone was a relatively rare thing until a few years ago. Even then the barrier to get a script is high, with monitored ingestion and doctors with prescribing limits. They actively refused to give addicts naloxone when asked until a few years ago, now they just hand them out.

Just give out free heroin.


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## Caesare (Apr 20, 2018)

JustStopDude said:


> I have colleague I was in military with. He got out and gets degree and becomes pharmacist. He has rural pharmacy in Kentucky.
> 
> I visit him once because I am doing job in region. His fucking place is like bank. Bullet proof glass, armed guard and shit. I ask him "Steve, why is this like this?"
> 
> He points out that in US, average armed robbery of bank is like $1200 in cash. But you steal one of his pill bottles (they come in big jugs), that bottle is worth like $50k in pills. And unlike US currency, there are no individual serial numbers to track on pills.



Yeah this is a fact. Pharmacies here aren't like banks but I suppose pharmacy robberies aren't quite as big a thing here as they used to be. My uncle robbed about half the pharmacies in this state from 1975-1995. I don't think it's been as bad since he and his friends started dying. 



CrunkLord420 said:


> Not really, suboxone was a relatively rare thing until a few years ago. Even then the barrier to get a script is high, with monitored ingestion and doctors with prescribing limits.



It's really not that difficult. Monitored ingestion amounts to a monthly drug screen to make sure you have the medication in your system (to make sure the patient isn't just selling their medication on the black market) and rarely, having a pill count, but most doctors don't even do that if you look halfway normal. A lot of clinics offer suboxone now, as well.


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## CrunkLord420 (Apr 20, 2018)

Coleman Francis said:


> Yeah this is a fact. Pharmacies here aren't like banks but I suppose pharmacy robberies aren't quite as big a thing here as they used to be. My uncle robbed about half the pharmacies in this state from 1975-1995. I don't think it's been as bad since he and his friends started dying.
> 
> 
> 
> It's really not that difficult. Monitored ingestion amounts to a monthly drug screen to make sure you have the medication in your system (to make sure the patient isn't just selling their medication on the black market) and rarely, having a pill count, but most doctors don't even do that if you look halfway normal. A lot of clinics offer suboxone now, as well.


Monitored ingestion means you show up to the pharmacy every day and have a pharmacist watch you take your pill. I've seen doctors prescribe non-abusable drugs this way to addicts, it's really quite cruel.


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## Caesare (Apr 20, 2018)

CrunkLord420 said:


> Monitored ingestion means you show up to the pharmacy every day and have a pharmacist watch you take your pill.



I was on it myself for just under a year and I've known quite a few people that still take it and I've never heard of this. That's pretty wild, though I am aware that the law varies greatly from state to state in this country. With the suboxone where I'm at, they write your month's prescription like they'd do with any other medication and you pick it up from your pharmacy and that's it. You have to see the doctor every month to get a new month's prescription, and your doctor will drug test you (not even every visit), but there is no monitoring involved.

The only medication that they actually monitor you is methadone, at the clinic you go to. This makes sense in a way since methadone is much more easy to abuse than suboxone. They watch you drink it before you leave and you have to come six days a week (Saturday they'll give you a take-home dose for Sunday, when they are closed). But after a month of daily visits, if you have a clean drug screen (nothing besides methadone in your system) they'll give you an extra take-home dose, so you'd only have to go 5 days a week.

They do this every month and as long as your drug screens are clean, you'll eventually only have to go twice a month. At that point, they give you your dose at the clinic (which they watch you take) then they'll give you two weeks worth of medicine to bring home.

Each state handles it differently though, as I found out when traveling and having to get my medicine at other, out of state clinics.


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## CrunkLord420 (Apr 20, 2018)

Coleman Francis said:


> I was on it myself for just under a year and I've known quite a few people that still take it and I've never heard of this. That's pretty wild, though I am aware that the law varies greatly from state to state in this country. With the suboxone where I'm at, they write your month's prescription like they'd do with any other medication and you pick it up from your pharmacy and that's it. You have to see the doctor every month to get a new month's prescription, and your doctor will drug test you (not even every visit), but there is no monitoring involved.
> 
> The only medication that they actually monitor you is methadone, at the clinic you go to. This makes sense in a way since methadone is much more easy to abuse than suboxone. They watch you drink it before you leave and you have to come six days a week (Saturday they'll give you a take-home dose for Sunday, when they are closed). But after a month of daily visits, if you have a clean drug screen (nothing besides methadone in your system) they'll give you an extra take-home dose, so you'd only have to go 5 days a week.
> 
> ...


I'm from a spot that is viewed as very liberal when it comes to drug policy. I knew an individual who was prescribed monitored ingestion for valium and clonodine while trying to go cold turkey, he ended up cheeking the pills and saving them so he could try to quit later without having to walk to a pharmacy while simultaneously going through massive opiate withdrawals.


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## JustStopDude (Apr 21, 2018)

Medicated said:


> What is it that makes these meds so expensive? Are they really that cost intensive to make?



They are not expensive to make. Not at all. It is street value that inflates the worth.


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## Cryin RN (Apr 21, 2018)

IMO the cure is to ensure people _never_ take them to start with. It sounds like DARE-level bullshit but there are no happy endings to heroin.  People have no clue how bad opiates change your personality on a basic level and they change it way for the worse.  It's literally like demonic possession, once you need your oxys, you are no longer driving the bus, your addiction is.  About half of addicts get their first pills from friends or family - so one prescription in a household is all it takes to ruin multiple lives.   Dentists prescribe them like candy, white people won't tolerate any pain whatsoever, and everyone wants doctors to magically fix their problems... like, they can't do that, but they _can_ get you really high.  IDK people LOVE getting high and hate not taking drugs so this problem will just have to get bad enough to overdose in a public bathroom and end for good.


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## HIVidaBoheme (Apr 21, 2018)

Forever Sunrise said:


> A relative of mine suffers from serious long-term joint pain, and they were prescribed Oxycodone. How much? Six tablets per day; two in the morning, two in the afternoon, two at night. Now, since my relative is a control freak and despises feeling out of control, they purposefully only took two a day. That was _still_ enough for them to develop a dependency on. When they eventually decided to stop taking the tablets, they experienced severe short-term withdrawal symptoms. But in the end they decided it was simply better to endure the pain than continue taking the medication even at the vastly reduced dosages they were allowing themselves. Again, they were taking less than a _third_ of their prescription.
> 
> On a personal level, I was prescribed Oxycodone for a knee injury. Honestly it didn't even work. It just made me high. I took it for about two days running, then stopped simply because I didn't like how sick it started making me if I didn't keep taking it.



Sadly this seems to be a good part of the cause, many prescriptions are given be it by negligence or by coercion, lazyness of whatever other factor could be taken into account... rarely because it was actually needed. Sometimes it's just to avoid a lawsuit over not giving what the patient believe they need, sometimes it is because the doctor wants to save themselves the headache of actually researching the cause of the pain and treating the source. Also most opioid addicts will go to great lenghts to ensure they keep popping their pills. 

And to that, add the social causes of the problem... quite a deep rooted issue.


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## Medicated (Apr 21, 2018)

Cryin RN said:


> IMO the cure is to ensure people _never_ take them to start with. It sounds like DARE-level bullshit but there are no happy endings to heroin.  People have no clue how bad opiates change your personality on a basic level and they change it way for the worse.  It's literally like demonic possession, once you need your oxys, you are no longer driving the bus, your addiction is.  About half of addicts get their first pills from friends or family - so one prescription in a household is all it takes to ruin multiple lives.   Dentists prescribe them like candy, white people won't tolerate any pain whatsoever, and everyone wants doctors to magically fix their problems... like, they can't do that, but they _can_ get you really high.  IDK people LOVE getting high and hate not taking drugs so this problem will just have to get bad enough to overdose in a public bathroom and end for good.



When I've been working jobs it's been the same thing, just different substances, I don't see why codiene is some special case.  I've walked into the bathroom at work and seen people smoking joints on shift.  I've seen people rock up to work half sloshed because it's the only way they can get through the rest of the day.


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## Maxliam (May 2, 2018)

JustStopDude said:


> I have colleague I was in military with. He got out and gets degree and becomes pharmacist. He has rural pharmacy in Kentucky.
> 
> I visit him once because I am doing job in region. His fucking place is like bank. Bullet proof glass, armed guard and shit. I ask him "Steve, why is this like this?"
> 
> ...


Tiny towns usually have the most ducked up things about them.


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## Cosmos (May 2, 2018)

Medicated said:


> I'm interested in why opiates are considered an epidemic, when alcohol kills more through car wrecks, violence, liver failure, and dependency.   Then we put up a "drink responsibly" sign in the window, and everything is fine.  What's the real reason here?



Excellent point. I'm not saying that opioid addiction (and drug addiction in general) isn't terrible, because it is, but as a society we collectively ignore the fact that alcoholism is often just as bad if not worse. And yet alcohol is embraced by our society to the point where if you _don't_ drink you're considered weird. 

Also, the older I get and the more this shit goes on, the more I think decriminalization (and possibly legalization) is the right answer. It's fucking idiotic and backwards that drug addicts are treated like criminals on principle. Like, if they rob and assault people, throw them in jail, but just having drugs shouldn't be enough to throw someone in our already extremely bloated justice and prison systems. The war on drugs is an abject failure, we need a new approach. 

Portugal's approach seems to be working pretty well for them. People are going to be very hesitant to get treatment for drug addiction if owning drugs is in and of itself a criminal offense. Also, if we legalize and tax relatively harmless drugs like marijuana, we can make a metric shit ton of money off of it. I've never touched weed in my life and have no personal investment in getting it legalized, but holy shit, we're sitting on a goldmine that we refuse to cash in on.


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## Ruin (May 2, 2018)

Medicated said:


> I'm interested in why opiates are considered an epidemic, when alcohol kills more through car wrecks, violence, liver failure, and dependency.   Then we put up a "drink responsibly" sign in the window, and everything is fine.  What's the real reason here?



There is none, it's literally just "muh morals."


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## Xetzyr (May 2, 2018)

It's actually a finger pointed problem, a distraction.

The real problem isn't opiates so much as non prescription sleep aides.  They make billions of dollars off those sleep aides however if taken in conjunction with even the most benign of opiate analgesics they're incredibly deadly.  There isn't as much money to be made off opiates though so they get all the blame and attention in order to protect the perceived safety of over the counter sleep aides.

The other big problem is Fentanyl... a man made synthetic opioid that's much cheaper and easier to make than getting the real thing... except the downside is that unlike natural opioids it carries an exponentially higher risk.  Being that it's cheaper though they started mixing it in with regular opioid formulations/pharmaceuticals and even street drugs, which resulted in a sudden and drastic increase in opioid related deaths... even though they were all Fentanyl related deaths... but to avoid lawsuits they obviously want to keep that fact on the down low.


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## RadicalCentrist (May 2, 2018)

Lol the real reason is that there are many profitable industries associated with the "epidemic:" the prison-for-profit scheme, probate court, the pharmaceuticals themselves, ad nausem.  Morality has left America long ago, and everyone is just chasing those profits.


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## ICametoLurk (May 3, 2018)

We need to go Caesar's Legion and ban all modern medicine.


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## Piss Clam (May 3, 2018)

I'd rather have opioid heads than crack heads. Crack heads will kill you, the opioid heads will just steal from you ( and that's actually happened to me)...and the reason I have 8 cameras up around my house...sadly.


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## JustStopDude (May 3, 2018)

I suspect it is now epidemic because it affects suburban communities. Statistically, in the 70's, heroin user was typically middle age, urban, African American. 

Now average heroin user is low 20's, white woman from suburbs. 

What is interesting to me is there is move to focus on treating addicts, but slamming dealers. This is impossible because most dealers are addicts and most addicts will middle for deals to make money/get drugs. There is no clear drug pusher/innocent user divide. You must go up the drug supply chain a couple of levels before you hit people involved that are not also addicts.


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## Caesare (May 3, 2018)

JustStopDude said:


> I suspect it is now epidemic because it affects suburban communities.



It affected suburban communities as well as cities since the beginning. Idk why exactly it gets more attention now. Perhaps the 24/7 news cycle? I really can't say with any certainty.



JustStopDude said:


> Statistically, in the 70's, heroin user was typically middle age, urban, African American.



Completely untrue. In the 1960's, the hippie community as well as average young people were heavily exposed to pills and especially heroin. Ask someone from that generation about it sometime and see what they tell you.



JustStopDude said:


> Now average heroin user is low 20's, white woman from suburbs.



Also false. It's probably more of an epidemic in the poor/lower middle class black communities now than it ever was before. It has been spreading out into the suburbs since the late 1960s/1970s, and hasn't really stopped. Though the most out of control use is still concentrated in urban areas. 



JustStopDude said:


> This is impossible because most dealers are addicts and most addicts will middle for deals to make money/get drugs.



The dealers aren't addicts, typically. Though you are correct that the addicts will do a little scheming and hustling when they're trying to get loaded, but this isn't the same as being a dealer.


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## JustStopDude (May 3, 2018)

Coleman Francis said:


> Also false. It's probably more of an epidemic in the poor/lower middle class black communities now than it ever was before. It has been spreading out into the suburbs since the late 1960s/1970s, and hasn't really stopped. Though the most out of control use is still concentrated in urban areas.



There are effectively three separate groups of "typical" opiate abusers. 

1) The heroin-only group tended to be the most socioeconomically disadvantaged, were more likely to be minorities, had more physical problems, and more likely to live in large urban communities. They were also more likely to have gotten in trouble with the law. Typically they did not get started through abusing medication. While their numbers have increased, its been the smallest amount statistically over the last decade in the US.

2) Those who used both heroin and prescription pain killers. They tend to report more mental health problems and were more likely to visit the ER than either of the other groups due to overdose. People in this group were also most likely to have started using drugs in their teens and experience more severe substance problems overall. This is the group that is causing the most concern among political leaders in the US because they occur in previously "safe" or "drug free" communities. 

3) The group who only used prescription painkillers. They are more likely to be married or employed, are the least socioeconomically disadvantaged and have less criminal justice involvement. They don't typically have the same mental, physical, and social problems of the other two groups and are least likely to live in large urban areas.

The largest group of drug abusers is group 3, but they receive the least attention. Group 1 is the one people imagine when they speak of opiate abuse, but they are the smallest population of users. 

The major gateway to heroin now is abuse of prescription drugs. 

One needs to have access to healthcare to get prescribed opiates. The way the US government pays for drugs mean that people on Medicaid are less likely to get prescriptions (US government is not allowed to negotiate for drug prices under this program so drugs are much more expensive). Under Medicare and the Veteran Administration, the government can negotiate with pricing of drugs. 

We see this played by the fact that disabled vets and older people are prescribed opiates at a much higher rate than poor people. This in turn could explain why opiate abuse is higher among those two groups, per surveys performed by various government agencies, compared to younger, poor people. But to be clear, poor addicts are typically starting with heroin, whereas more middle and upper class users start with medication and then move onto heroin because of the costs in maintaining the addictive behavior. 



Coleman Francis said:


> Also false. It's probably more of an epidemic in the poor/lower middle class black communities now than it ever was before. It has been spreading out into the suburbs since the late 1960s/1970s, and hasn't really stopped. Though the most out of control use is still concentrated in urban areas.


 Your perspective here is not supported by statistical reports by researchers. There has been a major generation and social shift between the average heroin user between different decades. Per dealers not typically being addicts, your perspective is akin to having a weed man that doesn't smoke weed. I am not saying that all peoples involved in illicit drug trade are addicts. The risks involved in being a low level dealer effectively means that only desperate people tend to do it. Once you go further up the supply chain, addicts are no as common. 

These are just my opinion of course, but if you do a search for research by governments in EU and the US, much of their research aligns with my thoughts on this matter.


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## Piss Clam (May 5, 2018)

The rural area uptake is from over prescription whether from idiocy or criminality of the doctors and the below is not an isolated case in my opinion/experience. Apparently nobody at the DEA could be bothered to get off their arse for a few years.

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/...cle_ef04190c-1763-5a0c-a77a-7da0ff06455b.html

Over the past decade, out-of-state drug companies shipped 20.8 million prescription painkillers to two pharmacies four blocks apart in a Southern West Virginia town with 2,900 people, according to a congressional committee investigating the opioid crisis.

The House Energy and Commerce Committee cited the massive shipments of hydrocodone and oxycodone — two powerful painkillers — to the town of Williamson, in Mingo County, amid the panel’s inquiry into the role of drug distributors in the opioid epidemic.

“These numbers are outrageous, and we will get to the bottom of how this destruction was able to be unleashed across West Virginia,” said committee Chairman Greg Walden, R-Ore., and ranking member Frank Pallone Jr., D-N.J., in a joint statement.

The panel recently sent letters to regional drug wholesalers Miami-Luken and H.D. Smith, asking why the companies increased painkiller shipments and didn’t flag suspicious drug orders from pharmacies while overdose deaths were surging across West Virginia.

The letters outline high-volume shipments to pharmacies over consecutive days and huge spikes in pain pill numbers from year to year.

Between 2006 and 2016, drug wholesalers shipped 10.2 million hydrocodone pills and 10.6 million oxycodone pills to Tug Valley Pharmacy and Hurley Drug in Williamson, according to Drug Enforcement Administration data obtained by the House Committee.


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## Joan Nyan (May 5, 2018)

I'm not convinced that people choosing to take pills is a crisis.


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## Piss Clam (May 5, 2018)

Jon-Kacho said:


> I'm not convinced that people choosing to take pills is a crisis.



When you have Rheumatoid arthritis and the steroids only help you walk, but the opioid are the only thing that relieve the pain, you might change your mind.

I don't take any opioid, but I understand why they are prescribed and how people can easily get addicted to them unless the doctor is careful to manage that.

It really is out of control.


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## Cabo Pirania (May 5, 2018)

can anyone explain to a non americam how this opiod crisis started?


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## JustStopDude (May 5, 2018)

Cabo Pirania said:


> can anyone explain to a non americam how this opiod crisis started?



I know when I first come to US, the strange thing to me is constant TV commercials with drugs. Oxycodone was first synthesized in Germany. Hitler was a prominent user, much like Meth (ze Germans made many new drugs in the prior WWII period). My understand is that there is a very large drug company Perdue in the US that created Oxycotine. The selling point was it was slow release and non-addictive compared to other opiates. It was claimed the drug was effective over 12 hours, but it turns out it is not. 

Drug company did not want people to purchase more dosages per day (this is because it would potentially affect insurance companies willingness to pay premium over older drugs that Perdue did not have exclusive patent on). Instead, they instructed doctors and insurance companies to increase the dosage, under the argument that they are less addict long term or something. 

So people getting prescribed higher and higher dosages because a 12 hour pill would only last four to six hours. 

Perdue was making mad bank. I think they closed closed to $36 billion the year drug came out. But now they are getting sued for covering up research they had showing their claims of long lasting and non-addictive nature being bullshit. 

So Oxy, seeing as being safe, gets prescribed for lots of shit. On top of this, many communities with former industries, like steel mills, local workforce out of work. So they go on disability. Old millwrights/electricians/etc usually worked hurt so doctors prescribe them drugs. Next thing you know, community has lots of addicts, no real jobs. 

Pills are expensive. Eventually people realize that heroin is a lot cheaper than pills, especially as pills get redesigned with additives to prevent intravenous using.


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## Joan Nyan (May 5, 2018)

Piss Clam said:


> When you have Rheumatoid arthritis and the steroids only help you walk, but the opioid are the only thing that relieve the pain, you might change your mind.
> 
> I don't take any opioid, but I understand why they are prescribed and how people can easily get addicted to them unless the doctor is careful to manage that.
> 
> It really is out of control.


So people in pain are taking pain killers. Still not seeing the crisis.


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## ln18 (May 6, 2018)

Jon-Kacho said:


> So people in pain are taking pain killers. Still not seeing the crisis.



The crisis is when the people in pain taking painkillers stop breathing.

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/information-sheet/en/

*Opioid overdose*
Due to their effect on the part of the brain which regulates breathing, opioids in high doses can cause respiratory depression and death. An opioid overdose can be identified by a combination of three signs and symptoms referred to as the “opioid overdose triad”. The symptoms of the triad are:


pinpoint pupils
unconsciousness
respiratory depression.
Combining opioids with alcohol and sedative medication increases the risk of respiratory depression and death, and combinations of opioids, alcohol and sedatives are often present in fatal drug overdoses.

Because of their capacity to cause respiratory depression, opioids are responsible for a high proportion of fatal drug overdoses around the world. The number of opioid overdoses has increased in recent years, in part due to the increased use of opioids in the management of chronic non-cancer pain1. In the United States of America alone in 2010, there were an estimated 16 651 deaths due to overdose on prescription opioids and 3036 due to overdose on heroin."


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## Crunchy Leaf (May 6, 2018)

A lot of people taking opioids aren't in pain, at least not physically. Their pain is the hopelessness and despair brought on by deindustralization. If you look at the places where opioids are the biggest issue, it's the parts of the US that have always been on the precipice of crippling poverty and have finally fallen off the cliff into a spiral of death.


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## Secret Asshole (May 9, 2018)

The only thing that will stop the opioid epidemic is a painkiller that isn't addictive and is as effective as opiates. Until that happens, this will continue. This has been an issue since civil war vets started robbing pharmacies for morphine.


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## NiggerFaggot1488 (May 9, 2018)

Current opiate crisis stems from 2 big things:

1. Purdue Pharma, owned by the (((Sackler))) family aggressively marketed Oxycontin, lied to doctors and labeled it as an "abuse resistant" drug. Specifically targeted it to working class communities, people in factories and in construction who got minor back injuries were being given this stuff like candy.

2. Until 2017  it was legal, in China, to advertise and export an opiate drug called Carfentanil. They were openly telling drug dealers in the US how to import it without being caught. The drug itself is very cheap to produce, much cheaper than Heroin, and 5 thousand times as potent. As a pusher you could make a ton of money importing this stuff from China and cutting it. But if you sold the pure stuff and someone consumed it? OD and death regardless of their opiate tolerance. This happens all the time and police now have to be extra cautious when dealing with unknown powdered drugs, because many have OD'd by accident on contact. Carfentanyl or a similar Fentanyl derivative was actually used as a chemical weapon by the Russians during the 2002 Moscow Theater hostage crisis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolokol-1#Carfentanil


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## Tiny Clanger (May 9, 2018)

Synthetics like Oxy actually seem more addictive than straightforward morphine. It's a complete disconnect in prescribing habits between anaesthetists/pain specialists and other doctors - managed appropriately, morphine itself is a pretty clean drug, whereas the synthetics are horrors. The initial success of oxy was a triumph of marketing because there was already a controlled-release morphine and its been around long enough to be well out of patent so generics are available. Many pain-relieving drugs are really just reinventing the wheel then selling it as a new, shiny transportation device to doctors who are warned about the dangers of the opioids but don't have the specialist knowledge, and obviously its in pharmaceutical business interests to keep docs prescribing new, patented meds. No big conspiracy, just the free market.

But from outside the US, something I find very strange is how readily really serious painkillers are prescribed. For instance, Fatboy Assanti built up an addiction through getting Dilaudid in the ER for non-specific leg pain (he weighed 700lbs +) and on his 600lb Life episode this was recorded. Dilaudid is rarely used where I am, but you wouldn't even get morphine here for non-specific pain. It's impossible to generalise from one case, but over and over discussion of the opioid crisis often seems to start with pain meds that wouldn't be considered here, or would only be given very short-term. I'm not saying we're better - we're absolutely not; even with one of the most painful syndromes known to medicine a patient will only get the heavy opioids after every other option is exhausted (and then the pain specialists will stay away from things like oxy in favour of straight morphine) - but the opioid crisis is almost the perfect storm with every factor contributing.

Doctors want to help, overly-strong shots are given in busy ERs to "hold" someone claiming massive pain and the free market rules dictate the meds that are prescribed - pharma companies have to make up R&D money within a limited timespan so they make bloody sure THEIR pill is the first one docs think of, whether it be for pain, depression or sunburn. The gateway is opened, then societal and socio-economic factors do the rest.  But the alternative is witholding opiates to patients who may not get any other pain relief, so its understandable medics jumped on this supposed addiction-free synthetic which was heavily pushed to over-ride their initial reluctance. I think the medical establishment WANTED to believe the claims made about oxy because, if true, it answered the dilemma of only giving strong opiates to terminally ill patients - in other words, pain relief if you're dying but if not, live with it. Either way, until as @Secret Asshole said, until we find an alternative there's no mid-ground - either patients don't get adequate pain relief, or they are set on a road to addiction.


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## JustStopDude (May 9, 2018)

Secret Asshole said:


> as effective as opiates.



The depressing thing is that opiates are terrible for long term pain management. Any amount taken long enough results in declining effectiveness. Many times chronic pain suffers will describe their symptoms from not getting their meds and they do not realize they are describing classic withdrawal symptoms.


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## Secret Asshole (May 10, 2018)

JustStopDude said:


> The depressing thing is that opiates are terrible for long term pain management. Any amount taken long enough results in declining effectiveness. Many times chronic pain suffers will describe their symptoms from not getting their meds and they do not realize they are describing classic withdrawal symptoms.



To be fair, that's a lot of drugs. That's just tolerance. The problem is that chronic pain or opiods for surgery last several months and then are suddenly stopped or not stopped properly. That's when the addiction comes in full force because your body has been relying on those meds for months on end.

Its all about homeostasis. Our body runs on a basic default. If you push towards pain relief, your body pushes towards pain. The more you push towards pain relief, the more your body pushes back. So you're basically going back and forth with your body, fighting to get back to 'regular'. Of course, by several months in, 'regular' is massively increased doses. Then when you stop those doses, your body pushes towards 'pain' as hard as it can, since it assumes you're going to be taking those high, potent doses. That's when you get the severe withdrawal symptoms and pain as well. Its also why withdrawal effects are often times opposite of what the drug is. Its your body pushing back.



Tiny Clanger said:


> Synthetics like Oxy actually seem more addictive than straightforward morphine. It's a complete disconnect in prescribing habits between anaesthetists/pain specialists and other doctors - managed appropriately, morphine itself is a pretty clean drug, whereas the synthetics are horrors. The initial success of oxy was a triumph of marketing because there was already a controlled-release morphine and its been around long enough to be well out of patent so generics are available. Many pain-relieving drugs are really just reinventing the wheel then selling it as a new, shiny transportation device to doctors who are warned about the dangers of the opioids but don't have the specialist knowledge, and obviously its in pharmaceutical business interests to keep docs prescribing new, patented meds. No big conspiracy, just the free market.



If you look at the history of opiods, every opiod after morphine was marketed as less addictive than morphine. Oxy was marketed this way as well.

Also, nobody looked at non-opioid pain relievers because opioids were so fucking profitable and worked just well enough, there was no money in it. You also had the fact that the medical establishment did not believe 'proper use' of opoids was actually addictive, which was pushed by pharmaceutical companies. Like, the hick on the street in his trailer snorting oxy and the oxy that the 90 year old with the hip replacement were taking would have different addictive effects, because the 90 year old was taking it 'properly'.

This wasn't done based on any sort of science, but by way of lots and lots and lots of fucking money. And that's why we have an opioid crisis. Because we have people who just love to profit off of human misery. Its a crisis because people want money, and they don't care who dies in the process. This has been going on for decades, but we're hearing about it now because more than poor people are dying from it, the children of the rich are dying too. But there's also a lack of motivation because the opioid epidemic largely affects rural white trash, where bodies pile up so high they run out of room in the morgue because people are now cutting oxy with fentanyl, which is supposed to be dermal use only for pain management and use as an anasthetic when injected, which is why you die so easily from it.


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## JustStopDude (May 10, 2018)

Secret Asshole said:


> To be fair, that's a lot of drugs.



It is amazing what humans can become addicted to as a coping mechanism. I cannot seem to find the story online, but there was an article I once read of people being addicted to water intoxication. They would consume so much water which causes their electrolytes to go nuts. It would create euphoric feelings. But it is extremely dangerous. The article talked of a specific treatment center for this with waterless toilets because initially the patients would consume water from the bowls. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-excess/201601/can-you-be-addicted-water

I wish I have better link.


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## Secret Asshole (May 10, 2018)

People love to get high. The problem is without any legal form, you have people turning to stupid shit like drinking massive amounts of water or huffing computer dust cleaner (which is insanely dangerous). 

But you can basically become addicted to anything that makes you feel good. People become addicted to cutting because of the pain relievers the body releases. That's why when people criticize something for being addictive I go 'And?'

The only controversy to worry about is physiological addiction where you go through withdrawal and shit like that. Any pleasurable activity is psychologically addicting. There are some guys that are 24/7 poker players, but they aren't addicted because they can lead stable lives, are financially stable and happy. Its the gambler selling his mother's china or his daughter's shit for that 'one big card game' that's the addict, because his life is in the toilet and it ruins his life because he's addicted to it. 

(Sex addiction is still pure fucking bullshit. We're biologically programmed to be addicted to sex. You're just a whore at that point or you have a mental condition)


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## Dysnomia (May 11, 2018)

Doctors handed too many opioids out like candy. Now they have a problem on their hands. My mom was on way too many pain pills and became addicted. She had awful withdraw but was afraid to get help because she was afraid she'd lose the pain medication that she actually needed. She started chewing on fentanyl patches even after I told her it was killing people. She died last year. There was no reason for her to ever get that bad. Insurance stopped paying for some of her lesser medications. But they sure as hell paid for the fentanyl. The copay was really high. But it was only a fraction of what it would cost uninsured. Had they paid for less heavy medication and had she gone to the proper therapies for her RSD she'd be alive today. I also suspect she may have had ovarian or uterine cancer that she let go untreated due to fear.

I wish fentanyl never existed. Drug dealers are lacing everything with it now too.

I've seen too many people screwed up on opioids. I've been lied to repeatedly by people who think I'm dumb enough to believe they aren't on anything and want to borrow money for cigarettes and groceries and the like when I just overheard them on the phone saying they were buying something else. I went broke giving money to people because they would repeatedly harass me and shame me and call me a horrible person if I didn't. Phone calls all day and night begging and begging. I was being followed to the store by relatives (not my mom) who would then beg me to take money out of the ATM and cause a huge scene in public if I didn't. Then I'd have to wait forever until I got my money back. Addicts are manipulative fucks who don't give a damn about you. All they care about is getting high. They don't care if you can't even afford a crust of bread because you loaned them your grocery money and they swore they'd pay you back in a couple of days. Cut these people off and tell them to fuck off. Of course it's harder when they are your relatives and they know just how to make you feel like garbage for not helping them.

I could go deeper but it would be powerleveling to the extreme.

the opioid crisis is a bad problem no doubt. And it's lead doctors into being scared to give pain medication to people who actually need it. I have tramadol for joint and stomach pain and rarely take it. I hate the way it makes me feel. I hate the way any sort of opioid makes me feel. I don't get the draw at all. Why would you want to walk around like that? Plus it dries your mouth out something awful.

Pain management centers have problems with junkies trying to get opioids for a little pain in their back or a little twinge in their leg. It just became too easy to get them for any old pain. Now people are addicted. I hope that like the crack epidemic it eventually gets a lot better. But this is a bit different than crack. Doctors weren't handing crack out like candy until it spun out of control.


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## ADN_VIII (May 13, 2018)

I've watched the progression from pain relief to dependency at a very close level. Happened to me when one of my teeth broke and exposed the nerve to the outside which resulted in excruciating pain that I couldn't control. I told my doctor and he prescribed Vicodin. Took my exact dose: two in the morning and two in the afternoon, then ended up dependant. The times I would go somewhere and forget them were awful because I would go through withdrawal. Eventually I got sick of getting sick and destroyed the supply to go cold turkey. It sucked, but what choice did I have?

On top of that, my dad has had back problems stemming from his time in the 82nd. Was given opiates to manage the pain in the run up to his surgery and I remember him commenting on the irony of an active DEA agent using opiates. Didn't take long for him to get hooked, and eventually quit cold when a fellow agent said he was acting like a pill abuser.


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## Medicated (May 15, 2018)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> A lot of people taking opioids aren't in pain, at least not physically. Their pain is the hopelessness and despair brought on by deindustralization. If you look at the places where opioids are the biggest issue, it's the parts of the US that have always been on the precipice of crippling poverty and have finally fallen off the cliff into a spiral of death.





Secret Asshole said:


> The only thing that will stop the opioid epidemic is a painkiller that isn't addictive and is as effective as opiates. Until that happens, this will continue. This has been an issue since civil war vets started robbing pharmacies for morphine.



So basically the opioid crisis is just a societal symptom?  And no one is interested in addressing or even mentioning what might be the source? They will just legislate it until the populace finds something else to cope with, or kill themselves.


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## Garfieldchu (May 15, 2018)

Opium as a tool of oppression and destruction goes back centuries. Remember the Opium Wars? The opiate crisis is just the current incarnation.


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## Slap47 (May 15, 2018)

Garfieldchu said:


> Opium as a tool of oppression and destruction goes back centuries. Remember the Opium Wars? The opiate crisis is just the current incarnation.



The British just wanted to make money out of the shithole that was northern India. It was just a nice coincidence that opium addiction contributed to weakening China.



Medicated said:


> So basically the opioid crisis is just a societal symptom?  And no one is interested in addressing or even mentioning what might be the source? They will just legislate it until the populace finds something else to cope with, or kill themselves.



It's both.

One side is people being in pain and getting prescribed drugs they can't handle. There is a huge population of boomers with declining health,  the health of younger people has deteriorated due to poor lifestyle and older people having kids has wreaked havoc on several generations genetically.  This side is irresponsible pharma and government and an issue of chemical reactions and biology. 

The other side is huge swathes of the country being depressed hellholes and the issue of the blanket of apathy and boredom that has always loomed over north-american society. America and Canada to a lesser extent are different from other countries. In America people are told to aspire to things and the entire society perpetuates that as a value, completely ignoring the means available to most people. Countries like Japan and Germany push people to succeed but the overall culture is to get a normal job and be content with where you are, although that is changing.


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## GS 281 (May 15, 2018)

It sorta amazes me that we can recognize the dangers which come along with the use of opiates and even advocate for government intervention and regulation of use of these medicines because they make people feel so good when taking them that they get hooked. Sure, the chemical withdrawal is the anchor that keeps many in place, but the hook is that smooth high you get from popping a few Vicodin. 

I've taken Vicodin in the past for more than a couple different reasons, and I understand the pull. You feel pretty good and there is this low-grade euphoria you get from it that can make you feel fulfilled when things are shitty. One thing though, you can tell when things are going too far. When you crave the pills constantly, when you feel you need them to be happy, these are things that should tip off people that something that should be an aspirin is bending their will into a pretzel. 

This really jogs your noggin when it comes to the concept of personal responsibility and the extent to which people must manage their own health, though. Even as a controlled substance where access is pretty much limited to prescriptions (its easier to find comparable or even better street drugs and for cheaper), this is still a problem where people believe that the government must play a role in regulation, even as we have observed the failure of the government to control all other drugs. 

So like, which is it? Should the government continue the futile battle against people taking pills that make them have good fee-fees, a battle which makes them no better than a street criminal in the eyes of the law, or should we be more libertarian, concede that people will continue to take these medicines even when they are unnecessary? Perhaps a third road where suboxone is applied along with counseling and social work is the most appropriate response? 

I have no clue, but I feel that this problem is only perceived as different because the addicts are generally faces that look like this...


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## Crunchy Leaf (May 15, 2018)

Medicated said:


> So basically the opioid crisis is just a societal symptom?  And no one is interested in addressing or even mentioning what might be the source? They will just legislate it until the populace finds something else to cope with, or kill themselves.


I think everyone knows what the source is. But fixing the problem is really, really hard, because that would mean fixing our entire broken economy. 



yawning sneasel said:


> It sorta amazes me that we can recognize the dangers which come along with the use of opiates and even advocate for government intervention and regulation of use of these medicines because they make people feel so good when taking them that they get hooked. Sure, the chemical withdrawal is the anchor that keeps many in place, but the hook is that smooth high you get from popping a few Vicodin.
> 
> I've taken Vicodin in the past for more than a couple different reasons, and I understand the pull. You feel pretty good and there is this low-grade euphoria you get from it that can make you feel fulfilled when things are shitty. One thing though, you can tell when things are going too far. When you crave the pills constantly, when you feel you need them to be happy, these are things that should tip off people that something that should be an aspirin is bending their will into a pretzel.
> 
> ...


Personally I don't have a problem with the government telling doctors and dentists to not massively overprescribe--that's where a lot of the problem started with young people, them getting lots and lots of drugs for their sports injury or root canal. 
And I also don't have a problem with the government cracking down on or penalizing the pharmaceutical companies that heavily promoted drugs like OxyContin to doctors or shipped 20 million pills to a town with 2900 people.


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## Medicated (May 15, 2018)

yawning sneasel said:


> 've taken Vicodin in the past for more than a couple different reasons, and I understand the pull. You feel pretty good and there is this low-grade euphoria you get from it that can make you feel fulfilled when things are shitty. One thing though, you can tell when things are going too far. When you crave the pills constantly, when you feel you need them to be happy, these are things that should tip off people that something that should be an aspirin is bending their will into a pretzel.
> 
> This really jogs your noggin when it comes to the concept of personal responsibility and the extent to which people must manage their own health, though. Even as a controlled substance where access is pretty much limited to prescriptions (its easier to find comparable or even better street drugs and for cheaper), this is still a problem where people believe that the government must play a role in regulation, even as we have observed the failure of the government to control all other drugs.



I'm going to powerlevel a bit to give my perspective.  I had an injury a few years ago, pretty serious.  The doctor prescribed me low grade painkillers to handle the pain from doing basic menial work.  A few years later the opioid crisis hit.  Then everyone around me was telling me I had now had a problem.  Even though I still took below the recommended dosage all the years I'd be taking them.  Even the drug store clerk suddenly gave me a flyer about the dangers of opioid addiction, how i was about to become a drug crazed criminal breaking into houses to get pills or something.

Since everyone was bothering me, even hiding my pills because they were worried. I gave them up.  Now I take a shot or two of vodka in the morning and few shots of vodka in the evening.  No one says a word.


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## Hui (May 15, 2018)

How about we just legalize opiods and let people die/live.  Same goes for all the other drugs.  It's not like people aren't on 20 different meds to stabilize their re wired brains at this point. :shrug:


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## GS 281 (May 15, 2018)

@Medicated i went through something similar. I had a wisdom tooth turn sideways in my gums and lay on one nerve while laying on another. It then broke open and fractured and exposed my nerve. The pain was hell. They gave me 5 codeine and I had to wait 10 days for extraction. I asked for more and the dentist told me to take ibuprofen. I did the same thing you did but with rum. I would just slam a shot every 20 minutes. It became a habit and tbh I think downing 3/4 of a fifth every day did more than a few Vic’s would have.


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## XYZpdq (May 15, 2018)

A doctor I work with has for his one of his two cents that opioids became more of an issue for normies is because people started seeking help with long-term pain management with expectation of no pain at all ever, rather than some pain in various amounts and trying to keep those amounts low.


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## Slap47 (May 15, 2018)

Hui said:


> How about we just legalize opiods and let people die/live.  Same goes for all the other drugs.  It's not like people aren't on 20 different meds to stabilize their re wired brains at this point. :shrug:



Because they go crazy and kill people because of the drugs or go around stealing things when they can't afford their fix. 

People you know dying and suckin dick like CwC also kinda sucks


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## Hui (May 15, 2018)

Put em all together in giant stadium then.


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