# Are trans men less vocal as trans women because they tend to pass better?



## UntimelyDhelmise (Jul 15, 2019)

This has been something on my mind for a while now, but even just hearing the word "trans" tends to invoke images of bad drag queens and uncanny valley faces. And both are nearly always towards MTFs. I know part (or more likely a good solid chunk) of the reason is, from what I understand, testosterone is a more aggressive hormone than estrogen, so it's far easier to change your body to look like a man than a woman. That and the effects of testosterone are harder to reverse, thus why we're starting to see freakshow parents making trans kids before the "evil puberty" ruins their twisted plans.

But the question is, is that why trans men are overall a less noticeable presence in the LGBT+E=MC2/SJW field? Because they pass so well that they don't feel the need to screech at everyone about how special they are?


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 15, 2019)

There's fewer of them, for one.  Less noisy FtM troons equals less attention paid.


----------



## Arcturus (Jul 15, 2019)

I do know that trans women look down really hard on trans men and try to verbally beat them into submission because "they're men". Probably also salty that a strapon is more viable than a carved out stink ditch.


----------



## Zeke Von Genbu (Jul 15, 2019)

According to my trans friends, trans men don't get as many side effects and aren't as emotionally unstable during their transition when they take HRT. Something to do with the differences of estrogen and testosterone when under HRT. So the trans women are going through mood whiplash fuckery and the trans men aren't going through as much, so the trans men aren't as vocal because they aren't in a really unstable state. That is the gist of what I remember.


----------



## Y2K Baby (Jul 15, 2019)

Tryphaena said:


> Probably also salty that a strapon is more viable than a carved out stink ditch.


Except the exact opposite is true. Frankendick is even less appealing than a blood hole.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 15, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> Except the exact opposite is true. Frankendick is even less appealing than a blood hole.


From what I understand most FtMs don't even bother with phalloplasty because the fuckers rot and fall off in a month anyway.


----------



## Y2K Baby (Jul 15, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> From what I understand most FtMs don't even bother with phalloplasty because the fuckers rot and fall off in a month anyway.


Probably another reason why they're not liked- truscum


----------



## Arcturus (Jul 15, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> From what I understand most FtMs don't even bother with phalloplasty because the fuckers rot and fall off in a month anyway.




They're also really small and don't even work. Why bother?


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 15, 2019)

Tryphaena said:


> They're also really small and don't even work. Why bother?


Basically.  If you want to pee like a true and honest man, there are inexpensive devices for that.


----------



## BoingoTango (Jul 15, 2019)

I just don't think there are as many FTM trannys. I think it's more popular to be MTF because there are more men who have given up on the idea of being a real man, so they instead decide to give up and become a woman, because they think that it would be easier, and since they can't get the girl they've always wanted, they'll instead become her. Plus they are usually generally perverts.

Especially with the current political climate where women can claim oppression points and take over things, then on top of that they will be trans and will have extra oppression points.

It's funny though, because it must be way easier to be FTM, because all you really have to do is get a boyish hair cut, where guy clothes and put on a strap on. 
Low-effort MTF trannys have a long, long way to go to be passable. Takes a lot more.


----------



## VV 422 (Jul 15, 2019)

men have higher rates of mental illness than women


----------



## Chalk Eater (Jul 15, 2019)

i've met plenty of MTF trans people, but only _one _FTM. little late, but i see that as one of the bigger factors


----------



## PoisonedBun (Jul 15, 2019)

It's surprising to me people say on KF that there are more MTFs than FTMs, when I've encountered far more FTMs/female nonbinaries online. I think the FTMs are probably a lot younger though, usually teens or early 20s. That said, I feel like they tend to be less vocal because for a lot of them it's just trying to fit in socially with other communities. Trans women are also seen higher on the totem pole anyways.

If you mean real life, it's probably because seeing a male figure in a dress sticks out, but a female figure in pants with a short haircut? Not so much.


----------



## Homer J. Fong (Jul 15, 2019)

Cho Chan said:


> If you mean real life, it's probably because seeing a male figure in a dress sticks out, but a female figure in pants with a short haircut? Not so much.


Let's just make it clear:
TOMBOY


TOMGIRL


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jul 15, 2019)

Cho Chan said:


> If you mean real life, it's probably because seeing a male figure in a dress sticks out, but a female figure in pants with a short haircut? Not so much.


That too.   Seeing someone on the street who seems to be going tomboy or bulldyke or whatever isn't going to set off the freak-o-meter like a dude wearing a halter top, skirt and heels.


----------



## CivilianOfTheFandomWars (Jul 15, 2019)

I know that HRT works better with women than men. It has something to do with how the effects of testosterone is hard to reverse, as opposed to just taking more. I have no clue how the genital surgery’s work for either MTF or FTM, but cosmetics when done competently can look fine without much issue. In my experience, FTMs will, at worst, look more like a bulldyke than anything, while MTFs can go into the “IT’S MA’AM” territory.
I know a couple FTM folk, and I would not be able to tell they didn’t start that way.
They also seem to be more mellowed out about it than MTFs, not sure why.


----------



## Smug Chuckler (Jul 15, 2019)

b/c they are trying to behave like real men


----------



## Y2K Baby (Jul 15, 2019)

Smug Chuckler said:


> b/c they are trying to behave like real men


Every single transman acts like a woman.


----------



## The Manglement (Jul 15, 2019)

I think the rates of real MtFs and FtMs are roughly similar, but most 'transwomen' are just autogynophilic gay men rather than legitimately dysphoric. A butch lesbian who gets off on wearing a strapon in the bedroom and dressing masculine isn't trans, but in the mind of tucutes and trenders they are.


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Jul 15, 2019)

Let's just face it, men tend to be louder and more vocal than women. It's like mis-categorizing gay men as acting like girls, they don't, they act like a gay man doing a bad parody of women and girls.



Cardenio said:


> Let's just make it clear:
> TOMBOY
> View attachment 842979
> TOMGIRL Fat Faggot
> View attachment 842982


FTFY



CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> I know that HRT works better with women than men. It has something to do with how the effects of testosterone is hard to reverse, as opposed to just taking more. I have no clue how the genital surgery’s work for either MTF or FTM, but cosmetics when done competently can look fine without much issue. In my experience, FTMs will, at worst, look more like a bulldyke than anything, while MTFs can go into the “IT’S MA’AM” territory.
> I know a couple FTM folk, and I would not be able to tell they didn’t start that way.
> They also seem to be more mellowed out about it than MTFs, not sure why.


I also think it comes down the fact that genetic men are conditioned and have genetic ties to antisocial disorders and behaviors. A huge component of antisocial disorders and behaviors is not giving a damn about social rules, so it's easier for them to kick sand in other people's faces and act like entitled brats.
There's also the causation for M2F trannydom as well, like fatherless homes, sex abuse, and autism all of which can lead these cross-dressing men to act like this.


----------



## Queen Elizabeth II (Jul 15, 2019)

Probably because they're still women and women aren't as aggressive and confrontational as men on average.

Women do tend to have higher emotional intelligence than men anyway, especially men who have taken so many hormone pills they probably rattle as they walk.

The most constantly aggressive men without even cause for their anger I've ever met have been effeminate gays; and I see MtF as a twisted mutation of that.


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jul 15, 2019)

FTM = weirdos who are afraid of attention so they make themselves as boring and as hard to notice as possible
MTF = weirdos who are obsessed with attention so they make themselves as garish and hard to miss as possible


----------



## Fek (Jul 15, 2019)

Is a 5'5" manlet with a soft voice and a tiny inflatadick going to bother you as much as a 6'2" ogre with an uncanny valley "feminine" voice, fake tits, and an adam's apple?

I'd think one is clearly gonna have to work harder than the other to avoid the staring and avoidance.


----------



## RoofGook (Jul 15, 2019)

They’re less vocal because trans women drown them out. Public facing trans women are still hyper-agressive and domineering men under the makeup, they’ve just found a different kind of territory to invade.


----------



## queerape (Jul 15, 2019)

For trans men, passing is not hard to do, but passing as your age is. Most trans men have no issue looking like 14 or 15 year old boys, but unless you want to attract pedos, you'd want to look older than that.


----------



## Koresh (Jul 15, 2019)

tl;dr Real transmen behave like men. Real transwomen behave like women. 



Spoiler: Observational spergery



Because transmen, real ones at least and not yaoi rpers or attention whores like Milo, are mentally men and most men tend to be more stoic. Soyboys are an exception, of course. Non-soy cismen I know and legitimate transmen that I know act the same way when something doesn't go their way, they pull themselves back up by their bootstraps, keep a stiff upper lip so no one thinks they're weak, and either go the other way or try again. They don't bitch, they take it like a man. I'd argue that a lot of these transmen even have a complex about manliness and will act more stereotypically masculine than an actual cisman will. The attention whores though, they screech and whine and cry like girls and lack that perspective of being a "self-made man" and "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps," because they're girls and girls are socialized and arguably biologically predisposed to be more social, thus relying on others more. 

It's true that Testosterone is stronger than Estrogen and it's easier to pass on it, but a quick peruse through the tumblr subcategory and attending any trans support group in a liberal area, you'll see that even with a deep 40 year old smoker's voice, these girls don't pass because they have the body language of girls, they dress like girls, and they're, well, girls. 

95% of transwomen I've met have all been bitchy cunts, but in two different ways. One is a definitely masculine way, like that dude who trashed that gamestop, and another is in a definitely female "speak to your manager" kind of way, where they'll be passive aggressive, gossip, socially back stab you, etc. Of course the former is probably some dude who couldn't live up to actually being a man or just likes the idea of himself in a dress, but you can't convince me that the transwoman who dresses and acts like every other young woman her age and will be a petty social bitch like them and falter at any actual direct confrontation is the same as the autogynephile. Just like how a girl on Testosterone who dresses in dresses, speaks high and with female cadence, curtsies, hides from aggression or conflict, and is just overall "cutesy" is the same as the person who looks and acts like the rest of the frat chads. 

A lot of people criticize transexuals for being heavily reliant on gender roles, but those gender roles exist for a reason. It's because they're true. A true transwoman is going to want to look pretty in a dress like most women and a true transman is going to want to be seen as strong and independent, like most men.

Of course, this is all in general and just my own biased observations.


----------



## Okami Green (Jul 15, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> Every single transman acts like a woman.



Every 'trans'man I've interacted with never tried to appear manly. They all were the most feminine soyboy men I have ever met and most de-transitioned once they were properly medicated for depression.

They're also probably less vocal because it's hard to make your voice passably deep :/


----------



## Shiversblood (Jul 16, 2019)

Trans-women are brave and beautiful. Trans-men are Icky and disgusting. You are going to win a lot more sjw points and oppression points if you are a trans-woman. If you are a trans-man then you are a evil MALE and have toxic masculinity


----------



## Dr. Sexbot (Jul 20, 2019)

Let's be real, FTMs are more based because they're the ones getting an upgrade.


----------



## Lemmingwise (Jul 21, 2019)

The biological and primitive imperative is far stronger in preventing men to pretend to be women compared to the opposite.

If you have a woman pretending to be a man, okay we have an extra person wanting to risk their life hunting and warring. There is some loss of value for the tribe (less active wombs), but there is some tradeoff in return, assuming she is capable.

If you have a man pretending to be a woman, it's a costly issue. Now this person wants to be recipient of attained goods, without having the female reproductive quality to compensate.

There is a reason men have a far stronger sense of sex detection built into their sexuality (which incidentally if it goes gay is far more likely to be exclusively gay compared to when women's sexuality goes gay).


----------



## Anti Fanta (Jul 21, 2019)

Generally females who look masculine can be very attractive quite far along the 'masculine/feminine axis' e.g. Grace Jones, and things like short hair or men's clothing on women are socially acceptable due to fashion and style icons. Men who look feminine have less room to manoeuvre on said axis before they become too feminine and lose the attractiveness that a hint of womanly features may give.

Apply this general rule to MtF and add a whole bunch of horrifying sartorial choices, receding hairlines and poor physical upkeep and it's easy to work out why FtM tend to pass better.


----------



## The Estatist (Jul 21, 2019)

Anti Fanta said:


> Generally females who look masculine can be very attractive quite far along the 'masculine/feminine axis' e.g. Grace Jones



That says more about male goonyness/desperation than about masculinity being attractive in women. Even then, overly visible/large musculature is unattractive in women. 

Anyway, whether women LARPing as men or men LARPing as women the tranny is a degenerate. A degenerate who'll hopefully meet Mr. Achmed.


----------



## Sped Xing (Jul 21, 2019)

Trans men are just women aspiring beyond their abilities.

It's like comparing the guy who thinks he's Julius Caesar to the guy who thinks he's a wolf.  They're both delusional nutters, but one works to learn a lot of history and speak well, while the other pisses on fire hydrants and tries to lick strangers


----------



## Terrorist (Jul 21, 2019)

there are far less of them so they don't seem as bad or as vocal


----------



## JektheDumbass (Jul 22, 2019)

MtFs compared to women are large, imposing, and strong.

FtMs compared to men are small, doughy, and weak.  

A FtM that acted like a MtF would get her shit slapped by someone bigger and stronger than them real quick.


----------



## Clop (Jul 22, 2019)

Because being a man genuinely sucks if you had the option to be a woman.






It really makes you thunky when you see a lot of media talk about how a MtF goes "omg I lost my privilege turning into a waman" but the less-lauded FtM says the exact same thing, but in a much more depressed "jesus fucking christ, this is what men have to put up with?"-tone. It's almost like the whole transition thing doesn't truly please anyone and is just a fucking fantasy.


----------



## Larry David's Crypto Fund (Jul 22, 2019)

A woman pretending to be a man is cute and childlike. She looks and sounds like a little boy just starting puberty. Aww look at the little squirt trying to be just like hims daddy. Sure she might get too convinced she's a Real Boy but you risk little in simply patting her on the head and smirking. What's she gonna do, dyke emotion process you to death? Aww, she's so funny when she's angry.

A man pretending to be a woman is hilarious, just, inherently comical. That's why drag is such a trope in comedy. But then if you laugh at him, and he's serious about it, he's as terrifying as any other enraged, mentally ill 6 foot tall man.


----------



## Hog On Ice (Jul 29, 2019)

Seems this thread has become mostly about why they do or do not pass, so I’ll throw in that males register higher on both sexes’ internal “threat detector.” When someone visibly male is trying to present as a woman, the element of deception can set off further alarm bells.


----------



## Ahoy (Jul 29, 2019)

Clop said:


> Because being a man genuinely sucks if you had the option to be a woman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Similar piece, but for real FtM trannies

Archive

I think a lot of posters don't realize how much more convincing FtM is. When they start pinning, the androgenic effects take hold in a few months and then they basically go through puberty. Their voice deepens, they get hairier than their butch lesbian friends, they get jacked, and their clitoris grows into a creepy little penis thing that is arguably more effective than JY's actual penis. 






How many of you would be able to identify this individual as a FtM tranny?


----------



## NN 401 (Jul 29, 2019)

Ahoy said:


> Similar piece, but for real FtM trannies
> 
> Archive
> 
> ...




Natal males don’t develop male secondary traits unless they go through a sort of “hormone bath.”

All fetuses start out presenting female? I think. It’s why androgen insensitive males look and sound like women despite having XY chromes.
Balian Bauschbaum passes for a dude so well it’s scary.


----------



## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jul 31, 2019)

Trans men (Meaning actually women) are, from what I've seen, legitimately looking for some relief from some vague symptoms.  They WANT to be a man, for the most part, not to be identified as trans.

Trans women (meaning men) probably include a few of the same category, but has shitloads of people who don't want to be a woman, they want to be a man who gets to be treated like a woman when it suits them.

Like people said, a lot of it is about control. You get to make people identify you, the hulking 6'3 balding man, as a pretty lady.

Of course gross weirdo trans men (women) exist too. They generally act like caricatures of the absolute worst version of "toxic masculinity" and hide behind their (supposed lack of) social privilege to avoid the penalties that usually come with that behavior.


----------



## HM 935 (Jul 31, 2019)

It also probably depends on where you go, internet wise. Trans men are less vocal on Twitter unlike the Zorra, which leads to the view that they're less obnoxious. However, if you look in their corners, they're just as loud and annoying as their counterparts. Check the Abby Brown Facebook groups for example. Those are filled to the brim with extreme sjw trans men who shout about it to the heavens. I've noticed that women tend to identify as enby or nb or some other snowflake term instead of outright trans.


----------



## xXxHeDevilOnExXx (Aug 7, 2019)

Female socialization is a hell of a drug. That's my opinion anyways.


----------



## Manah (Aug 7, 2019)

CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> I know that HRT works better with women than men. It has something to do with how the effects of testosterone is hard to reverse, as opposed to just taking more. I have no clue how the genital surgery’s work for either MTF or FTM, but cosmetics when done competently can look fine without much issue. In my experience, FTMs will, at worst, look more like a bulldyke than anything, while MTFs can go into the “IT’S MA’AM” territory.
> I know a couple FTM folk, and I would not be able to tell they didn’t start that way.
> They also seem to be more mellowed out about it than MTFs, not sure why.



I know one FTM person, and they basically said that the whole thing is great. Just taking testosterone and they're getting muscle more easily, can grow facial hair, have a deeper voice, and getting treated with more respect at their new job.

If it really is just 'easier' to go FTM than MTF, it makes sense there'd be less to complain about, I guess.


----------



## CivilianOfTheFandomWars (Aug 7, 2019)

Manah said:


> I know one FTM person, and they basically said that the whole thing is great. Just taking testosterone and they're getting muscle more easily, can grow facial hair, have a deeper voice, and getting treated with more respect at their new job.
> 
> If it really is just 'easier' to go FTM than MTF, it makes sense there'd be less to complain about, I guess.


Now, I am not a science, but here's my spitball theory. In the womb, everyone starts as a female. _Then_ testosterone is introduced is you're male, and not if female. Testosterone is the thing that changes you from male to female, and my guess is that that is the reason FtMs pass better.
It seems easier to administer and control testosterone for FtMs than remove the effects in MtFs.
I have no clue, but that's my very retarded idea.


----------



## MrTickles (Aug 8, 2019)

They pump themselves full of male hormones. They make you more stable, more logical, less inclined to be an insufferable twat. etc.



> Now, I am not a science, but here's my spitball theory. In the womb, everyone starts as a female. _Then_ testosterone is introduced is you're male, and not if female. Testosterone is the thing that changes you from male to female, and my guess is that that is the reason FtMs pass better.
> It seems easier to administer and control testosterone for FtMs than remove the effects in MtFs.
> I have no clue, but that's my very exceptional idea.



The Y chromosome turns the fetus male. It's far more than just testosterone. Males are basically females on steroids (bigger, better, faster, smarter).


----------



## Surf and TERF (Aug 8, 2019)

Manah said:


> I know one FTM person, and they basically said that the whole thing is great. Just taking testosterone and they're getting muscle more easily, can grow facial hair, have a deeper voice, and getting treated with more respect at their new job.
> 
> If it really is just 'easier' to go FTM than MTF, it makes sense there'd be less to complain about, I guess.




Depends on the person. I know someone who's transitioning from female to male and the hormones are fucking up his mind, skin, and digestive system real bad.


----------



## Autocrat (Aug 8, 2019)

I think it's because they're already innately more accepted by society  + more prone to socializing by virtue of their _xx_ chromosomes.






I had lunch with this woman a while back. A femme-presenting trans man, where the 'femme-presenting' is a kind of performance art. Something like that.
Given how new and uncommon trans is, particularly this brand of trans, he can essentially be said to be 100% accepted by society.

There would just be more revulsion if an otherwise normal looking, 'masculine-presenting trans woman' wanted to cut off its dick.
It wouldn't be as easy to accept.

Now, lets break down the relative normalcy:

A disgustingly ugly trans man is still more likely to have accepting friends their trans woman counterpart. Call it the inherent privilege in those chromosomes.
I've seen a bearded, pretty revolting trans woman and I could tell it had friends. I just think, in general, it is far more unlikely for a freak of _xy_ chromosomes to have friends than a freak of _xx_ chromosomes.

Lack of social and romantic fulfillment + inherent testosterone is breeding grounds for an angry person.


----------



## xXxHeDevilOnExXx (Aug 8, 2019)

Surf and TERF said:


> Depends on the person. I know someone who's transitioning from female to male and the hormones are fucking up his mind, skin, and digestive system real bad.


I've read similar things on r/detrans


----------



## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Aug 8, 2019)

I would love to do a study on perceived vs actual group acceptance with women who think they are perceived as men vs women who think they are perceived as women.

Because in my experience, when I've seen this sort of thing, the women never seem to consider that _their own_ confidence that they'll be accepted is what leads to the better result, not the maleness. And as a male, I can't experience myself to know.


----------

