# Why the Galactic Empire and First Order are the good guys in Star Wars



## MW 590 (Jun 27, 2019)

The Star Wars movies trick you into believing that the Jedi and the Rebels are the good guys, and the Empire and First Order are the bad guys. However the exact opposite is true.

First of all, the Galactic Empire brought order to the galaxy. If you watch the prequels, you see how ineffective the government of the Old Republic is. When planet Naboo was invaded by the Trade Federation, they did not take action and needed to set up a committee to investigate whether Naboo was even invaded. While Darth Sidious was the mastermind behind it, it was part of his plan to take over as revenge for what was done to the ancient Sith. 

The Republic was also ineffective at enforcing their authority in the Outer Rim, and those planets were run by gangsters. 

However you may argue that Order 66 was bad because the Jedi were killed. But Order 66 was justified because the Jedi were a threat to the stability of the Galaxy. Order 66 was a reaction to Jedi commiting high treason, attempting to assasinate Palpatine, the legally elected Chancellor. 

The Galactic Empire was a much more effective government than the Republic, enforcing their authority in the Outer Rim, bringing order to the galaxy which would be completed by the finishing of the construction of the Death Star. However a bunch of traitors established the Rebel Alliance to overthrow  the legitimate government of the galaxy, causing another civil war. 

Another argument made against the Empire is the destruction of Alderaan by the Death Star. However Alderaan was a major base of rebel operations due to Princess Leia’s father being one of the leaders of the Rebellion. The destruction of Alderaan was necessary to end the war by defeating a major base of rebel operations and to cause the rebels to surrender. Think of it as Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 

After the overthrow of the Empire, the Canon aftermath books describe the disaster that struck the galaxy. There was major instability, a rise in crime as underworld dynasties have regained dominance over worlds once kept free of their toxic influences by the Empire, and the Empire’s overthrow also caused economic disaster as there was a loss of jobs, income, and even lives.  

The Canon book Bloodline shows that the New Republic is just as ineffective as the old, with the senate full of two competing factions causing gridlock and stagnation. 

In the sequel trilogy, the First Order is the successor to the Galactic Empire and therefore is the heir to the legitimate government of the galaxy, fighting to restore the legitimate government and order to the galaxy.


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## MarvinTheParanoidAndroid (Jun 27, 2019)

I assumed they were the good guys because they were killing all the weeb monk/samurai wannabes.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 27, 2019)

>caring about star wars
>caring about star wars after lucas ruined the franchise with jedi


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## ProgKing of the North (Jun 27, 2019)

Wasn’t there a Milo post about this (right about the same time as the one about The Princess Bride being terrible, which might actually be Milo’s worst opinion?

Congrats, OP, you agree with a gay Jew. The monarch restoration society isn’t gonna like that.


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## Judge Holden (Jun 27, 2019)

MarvinTheParanoidAndroid said:


> I assumed they were the good guys because they were killing all the niggers.


FTFY


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## {o{P (Jun 27, 2019)

break these cuffs said:


> >caring about star wars
> >caring about star wars after lucas ruined the franchise with jedi


Jedi could be cool if they were all mysterious like. George ruined them by having them jump about like fucking acrobats


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## break these cuffs (Jun 27, 2019)

{o{P said:


> Jedi could be cool if they were all mysterious like. George ruined them by having them jump about like fucking acrobats


I meant RotJ. That shit was already the beginning of the end.


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## {o{P (Jun 27, 2019)

can you rate your own post autistic? 

rotj my favorite star wars but i can agree it was the begging of George getting money hungry and lazy with the woks instead of wookies as he had originally planned


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## Ted_Breakfast (Jun 27, 2019)

How can the First Order be good guys if they don't have any goals?


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## Pargon (Jun 27, 2019)




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## ICametoLurk (Jun 27, 2019)

Star Wars is literally propaganda made by Luke to justify taking over his father and bringing about a counter-revolution as opposed to his father who was actually trying to make the galaxy a better place.

There's a reason by Lucas used Triumph of the Will in the first movie.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 27, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> Wasn’t there a Milo post about this (right about the same time as the one about The Princess Bride being terrible, which might actually be Milo’s worst opinion?


Good god, thank you for pointing me towards that hilarious article.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 27, 2019)

The new films except Rogue One are just cash grab with bad storywriting, retarded characters and for TFA, also no originality.

In the old Expanded Universe, there was the idea that Palpatine knew about the upcoming Yuuzhan Vong Invasion and he wanted to stengthen the Galaxy to defend her against them.


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## Ягода (Jun 27, 2019)

this shit always boils down to money, i.e. taxes. What's the imperial tax rate (cost) for all this "stability"?


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## Lioness (Jun 27, 2019)

Strong agree. Kylo Ren's torso is the true and honest protagonist of Disney era Star Wars.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 27, 2019)

Webby's Boyfriend said:


> In the old Expanded Universe, there was the idea that Palpatine knew about the upcoming Yuuzhan Vong Invasion and he wanted to stengthen the Galaxy to defend her against them.


So the EU is just a Dune ripoff?


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 27, 2019)

Yeah okay but, which side is monotheistic?


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## MW 590 (Jun 27, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> Wasn’t there a Milo post about this (right about the same time as the one about The Princess Bride being terrible, which might actually be Milo’s worst opinion?
> 
> Congrats, OP, you agree with a gay Jew. The monarch restoration society isn’t gonna like that.


They will like my opinion on the Galactic Empire because the Empire is a form of monarchy as it has an Emperor.


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## MW 590 (Jun 27, 2019)

Webby's Boyfriend said:


> The new films except Rogue One are just cash grab with bad storywriting, exceptional characters and for TFA, also no originality.
> 
> In the old Expanded Universe, there was the idea that Palpatine knew about the upcoming Yuuzhan Vong Invasion and he wanted to stengthen the Galaxy to defend her against them.


Think of the First Order as the antithesis to what the Disney SJWs believe in. Then you will come to admire them and Kylo Ren.


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## Vorhtbame (Jun 27, 2019)

So I read this thread, thinking we were going to have Yet Another Shitposting Contest...

...and then I remembered who Jake here is.

Besides, everyone knows that the real villain of _Star Wars_ was Darth Binks.


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## Creep3r (Jun 27, 2019)

The Empire did nothing wrong. The First Order is gay and stupid. The Resistance and the Nu-Republic are aimless and corrupt idiots, even more so than the old Republic. Ewoks were a mistake. Also OP is a faggot.

Edit:


Exigent Circumcisions said:


> Yeah okay but, which side is monotheistic?


According to Disney's nu-canon, the Empire has an "atheistic state religion". So I guess that just leaves us with the Rebels and their hippie universalist adaptation of the jedi teachings.


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## MW 590 (Jun 27, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> The Empire did nothing wrong. The First Order is gay and stupid. The Resistance and the Nu-Republic are aimless and corrupt idiots, even more so than the old Republic. Ewoks were a mistake. Also OP is a faggot.


Remember that the great Emperor Palpatine is returning in Episode IX which might redeem the sequel trilogy.


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## Night Terror (Jun 27, 2019)




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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 27, 2019)

break these cuffs said:


> So the EU is just a Dune ripoff?


Yes, Star Wars always was.


Jacob Harrison said:


> Think of the First Order as the antithesis to what the Disney SJWs believe in. Then you will come to admire them and Kylo Ren.


I think most of what SJWs usually say is more intelligent than Nu Star Wars plotlines, settings and characters. So, Disney didn't even try.





Jacob Harrison said:


> Remember that the great Emperor Palpatine is returning in Episode IX which might redeem the sequel trilogy.


Just like in Dark Empire?


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## Creep3r (Jun 27, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> Remember that the great Emperor Palpatine is returning in Episode IX which might redeem the sequel trilogy.


That's like having Queen perform on the Titanic. Sure the music will be rad but the ship is still gonna sink and that's assuming the band isn't forced to smear themselves in shit before performing to make sure their legacy is completely ruined. People are too easily pleased by empty and pointless cameos.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 27, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> That's like having Queen perform on the Titanic. Sure the music will be rad but the ship is still gonna sink and that's assuming the band isn't forced to smear themselves in shit before performing to make sure their legacy is completely ruined. People are too easily pleased by empty and pointless cameos.


So, at last Disney admits they cannot invent interesting new characters by themselves and have to bring back classic ones?


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## MW 590 (Jun 27, 2019)

Webby's Boyfriend said:


> I think most of what SJWs usually say is more intelligent than Nu Star Wars plotlines, settings and characters. So, Disney didn't even try.


But they seemed to have deliberately promoted female superiority when they had made Rey super strong in the Force than despite not having had nearly the same amount of training as Luke. 


GeneralFriendliness said:


> That's like having Queen perform on the Titanic. Sure the music will be rad but the ship is still gonna sink and that's assuming the band isn't forced to smear themselves in shit before performing to make sure their legacy is completely ruined. People are too easily pleased by empty and pointless cameos.


But it might be more than a cameo. Palpatine might nearly gain back control of the galaxy. It might be like Dark Empire.


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## The best and greatest (Jun 27, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> The Empire did nothing wrong. The First Order is gay and stupid. The Resistance and the Nu-Republic are aimless and corrupt idiots, even more so than the old Republic. Ewoks were a mistake. Also OP is a faggot.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> According to Disney's nu-canon, the Empire has an "atheistic state religion". So I guess that just leaves us with the Rebels and their hippie universalist adaptation of the jedi teachings.


Which is worse, a corrupt and indolent bureaucracy or a corrupt and indolent bureaucracy that will blow your fuckin planet up if they think you look a little too froggy?


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## Son of Odin (Jun 27, 2019)

Star Wars is dead to me after they threw out the Jedi Knight/Dark Forces canon with Kyle Katarn and the Valley of the Jedi in favor of Disney's tumblresque faggotry. I used to be a hardcore Star Wars fanboy when I was 8-14/15 but now I hate seeing anything Star Wars-related.


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## Shokew (Jun 27, 2019)

As autistic and shitposty as all of this could become tomorrow, I need to throw my five cents into this.

I kinda understand what the Empire was trying to do all along - get the fucking galaxy back on its feet in a real way the Republic couldn't, let alone effectively maintain. Too bad a lot of their tactics and behaviors - besides Palpatine being a fucking power-famished nutcase (both in the film and the REAL EU (novels/stories)), were written to be one-dimensional levels of villainous, which is just sad, because in the right hands, we could've shown some of them being a little more morally balanced.

The same story is rightfully so with the Republic / Rebels (who do deserve some good amount of ire for trying to bring back a lifestyle that lead to the Empire coming into being in the first place!), who are shown to be too goody-goody in a lot of spots, where such otherwise should have been avoided - if only to portray a more human, balanced nature in the struggle between right & wrong.

Here's the thing (and part of why there are likely more Empire fans than Republic / Rebel fans in general): In war, NO ONE should be seen as a clear-cut good or bad guy. Where Gundam (especially in the old school years) got this right most of the time (IMHO, of course), Star Wars just gets it all fucking wrong, too early on. With stronger writing, the Empire could be seen as a little more sane and the Republic not portrayed as the heroes / saviors that "everyone is praying for and whatnot".

Worst of all? Don't get me started on how 1D everything is being handled between the Resistance and the First Order in the Sequel Trilogy films. And no, bringing Palpatine back isn't gonna make anything better for me. Star Wars is fucked, no matter what happens to it. I did like Rouge One, though - that doesn't change anything, regardless, about how I feel Disney is fucking up what was once a good thing (plus, at least the prequel trilogy films are fun to make fun of, so there's that.).


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## Takodachi (Jun 27, 2019)

I knew I was gonna find an use for this one day.


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## Clop (Jun 27, 2019)

Long live.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 27, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> Think of the First Order as the antithesis to what the Disney SJWs believe in. Then you will come to admire them and Kylo Ren.



Its pretty clear that you're working backwards from this point. Pick up Asimov's Foundation trilogy  and then start reading actual scifi instead of cheap trash. If you want a really morally ambiguous galactic empire, Jerry Pournelle will be right up your alley, especially the stuff he collaborated with Stirling on. The Galactic Empire is a cookie-cutter excuse villain that is literally Corporate Hollywood dressed like Nazis. The writing just isn't good enough to reinterpret them as anything but evil and inept, and the universe is too shallow besides.


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## Red Hood (Jun 27, 2019)

"From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" - man prophesied to bring balance to the force.


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## IAmNotAlpharius (Jun 27, 2019)

I liked the Fel Empire (Legacy era) and their Imperial Knights: They were like Jedi but dedicated to the Empire first and foremost. I’m also a fan of the Thrawn novels and Tarkin’s stand alone novel.


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## Red Hood (Jun 27, 2019)

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Death Star."


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## Creep3r (Jun 27, 2019)

Regardless of your faction or alignment, I think we can all agree that sand is pretty awful.





IAmNotAlpharius said:


> I liked the Fel Empire (Legacy era) and their Imperial Knights: They were like Jedi but dedicated to the Empire first and foremost. I’m also a fan of the Thrawn novels and Tarkin’s stand alone novel.


My ultranigga.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 27, 2019)

The Shadow said:


> "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the Death Star."



This would have been more fun than The First Order.


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## Forever Train Engineer (Jun 27, 2019)

Webby's Boyfriend said:


> In the old Expanded Universe, there was the idea that Palpatine knew about the upcoming Yuuzhan Vong Invasion and he wanted to stengthen the Galaxy to defend her against them.


Exactly, the Galaxy would've lost way less people to the Yuuzhan Vong if the Empire stood around, perhaps the Yuuzhan Vong never even invaded the Galaxy at all.

(God am I really sperging about Star Wars?)


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## Nobunaga (Jun 27, 2019)

Webby's Boyfriend said:


> So, at last Disney admits they cannot invent interesting new characters by themselves and have to bring back classic ones?


>inb4 they acknowledge darth blinks and make him the big baddie playing 5d chess this whole time


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## UQ 770 (Jun 27, 2019)

the autist of dojima said:


> >inb4 they acknowledge darth blinks and make him the big baddie playing 5d chess this whole time



Please tell me they make him a metaphor for Trump like every other woke outlet has. I would actually torrent and watch the movie in order to see them ineptly inserting Trump memes via Jar-Jar speech.


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## Creep3r (Jun 27, 2019)

the autist of dojima said:


> >inb4 they acknowledge darth binks and make him the big baddie playing 5d chess this whole time


I think they might be desperate enough to actually do it.


Spoiler









This Disney SW comic released last year sent redditors into such a tizzy that they started making theories about how this proves Jar Jar is a Jedi/Sith.


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## MW 590 (Jun 28, 2019)

Locomotive Derangement said:


> Its pretty clear that you're working backwards from this point. Pick up Asimov's Foundation trilogy  and then start reading actual scifi instead of cheap trash. If you want a really morally ambiguous galactic empire, Jerry Pournelle will be right up your alley, especially the stuff he collaborated with Stirling on. The Galactic Empire is a cookie-cutter excuse villain that is literally Corporate Hollywood dressed like Nazis. The writing just isn't good enough to reinterpret them as anything but evil and inept, and the universe is too shallow besides.


I read canon books licensed by Disney called the Aftermath Trilogy which is about how the Empire fell after ROTJ. The writing is good at allowing the readers to reinterpret the Empire. It portrays the rebels as causing chaos in their “damn fool idealistic crusade.”


> "This is Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, commander of the Imperial Navy and de facto leader of the Galactic Empire. The Empire remains vigilant in combating the anarchist criminal government calling itself the New Republic. The dream of a safe, sane, and unified galaxy did not die with the glorious Emperor Palpatine. The Galactic Empire continues to march forward, tirelessly diligent in its quest to return order and stability where none before existed. Meanwhile, the New Republic continues its own mission to destroy what we have built together. Crime has returned to the galaxy tenfold as the underworld dynasties have regained dominance over worlds once kept free of their toxic influences by the Empire. Supply lines have been cut, and many worlds are now starving without adequate food. The corrosive influence of the New Republic has caused a seemingly insurmountable loss of jobs, income, and even lives. But fear not. The Empire remains, as sure as a mountain, as certain as the stars across all the systems. We will defeat the insurgency. We will make this false government pay for its crimes against you. Even now we are building new ships, new bases, and founding new technologies to keep you safe. The Empire is coming. We will deliver you from harm. And we will strike back against our enemies. Remain calm. remain loyal. With true hearts, victory for us—and for the whole galaxy—will soon be at hand."


Another thing to keep in mind is that George Lucas as a liberal, admitted that he partially based the Empire off of the United States.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 28, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> I read canon books licensed by Disney


What a waste of time.


Locomotive Derangement said:


> I would actually torrent and watch the movie


I've pirated Solo: A Star Wars Story and stopped it after like 20 minutes. Now where I'm into Star Wars again, I've re-readen many old EU comicbooks, but still didn't watch this flick until the end credits. But surely it cannot be worse than TLJ.


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## Creep3r (Jun 28, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:
			
		

> I read canon books licensed by Disney called the Aftermath Trilogy





> The writing is good


>the Aftermath Trilogy
>by Chuck Wendig
>with Space-Hillary Clinton as the main protagonist
>good writing
You're baiting right? Even the shitty Jedi Prince novels look like works of art compared to that mess. Hell, the author was such a sperg that even Disney had to fire him.





						Chuck Wendig / Charles Wendig / TerribleMinds
					

What's really rich is Wendig goes off on Hamill for thinking not having one scene with all the original Star Wars stars was a missed opportunity which Hamill was right about but Wendig claims this feeds "toxic fandom" and hurts creators. Yet this asshole has no problem throwing  Dennis Hellum to...




					kiwifarms.net


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> >the Aftermath Trilogy
> >by Chuck Wendig
> >with Space-Hillary Clinton as the main protagonist
> >good writing
> You're baiting right? Even the shitty Jedi Prince novels look like works of art compared to that mess. Hell, the author was such a sperg that even Disney had to fire him.



Yeah, I choked and bled from the eyes when I read that guy's post.


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## MW 590 (Jun 28, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> >the Aftermath Trilogy
> >by Chuck Wendig
> >with Space-Hillary Clinton as the main protagonist
> >good writing
> ...


I never said that they were great books, I was saying that Chuck Wendig inadvertently did a good job portraying the Imperials as the good guys by making the rebels bring disaster to the Galaxy much like the Democrats and by having the protagonist be like Hillary Clinton.

I read the books thinking they would give great hints about Snoke’s identity. They only gave vague hints about something being in the unknown regions. 

However the redeeming parts of the book was Admiral Gallius Rax fulfilling Palpatine’s contingency plan to create a brand new better Empire and the chapter with Jar Jar Binks that hints that he’s a Sith Lord looking for an apprentice.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 28, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> I never said that they were great books, I was saying that Chuck Wendig inadvertently did a good job portraying the Imperials as the good guys by making the rebels bring disaster to the Galaxy much like the Democrats and by having the protagonist be like Hillary Clinton.
> 
> I read the books thinking they would give great hints about Snoke’s identity. They only gave vague hints about something being in the unknown regions.
> 
> However the redeeming parts of the book was Admiral Gallius Rax fulfilling Palpatine’s contingency plan to create a brand new better Empire and the chapter with Jar Jar Binks that hints that he’s a Sith Lord looking for an apprentice.


Sounds like somethin' straight out of an edgy 14 year old's daydreams.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> I never said that they were great books, I was saying that Chuck Wendig inadvertently did a good job portraying the Imperials as the good guys by making the rebels bring disaster to the Galaxy much like the Democrats and by having the protagonist be like Hillary Clinton.
> 
> I read the books thinking they would give great hints about Snoke’s identity. They only gave vague hints about something being in the unknown regions.
> 
> However the redeeming parts of the book was Admiral Gallius Rax fulfilling Palpatine’s contingency plan to create a brand new better Empire and the chapter with Jar Jar Binks that hints that he’s a Sith Lord looking for an apprentice.



Dude, I was no-shit not joking that you should pick up some Asimov or Pournelle. Its clear you have an interest in this topic but your sense of taste is so tragically bad that I'm getting acute radiation sickness reading it. If you want to go hardcore you can also just start with Stirling right out of the gate like I did.


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## MW 590 (Jun 28, 2019)

Locomotive Derangement said:


> Dude, I was no-shit not joking that you should pick up some Asimov or Pournelle. Its clear you have an interest in this topic but your sense of taste is so tragically bad that I'm getting acute radiation sickness reading it. If you want to go hardcore you can also just start with Stirling right out of the gate like I did.


Stirling’s Nantucket Series sounds interesting. What Pournelle novels are similar to Star Wars?


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> Stirling’s Nantucket Series sounds interesting. What Pournelle novels are similar to Star Wars?



I have a very small snapshot of your personality, but already I'm of the opinion you'd like Pournelle the best out of my suggestions. His works are pretty short by modern standards, but in the Golden Age of SF fiction they learned how to make do with less. You should read his CoDominium universe, starting with King David's Spaceship. Its a story very in tune with the sense of cultural disillusionment I notice a lot of angry young people are feeling these days. Pournelle was also noted for being very politically incorrect along with his friend Larry Niven, but I always found Niven's work to be really goofy and uninteresting.

SM Stirling is good if you like down-in-the-mud combat mixed with the psychological problems I'm sure the man has. The first Draka book, Marching Through Georgia is a fun head-crushing slaughterfest filled with unsettling meditations on the psychology of slavery. Its very polemic though and that its lack of realism really pissed some people off. 

This is an outlier I agree, but if you can find it, In Conquest Born by Celia Friedman is really fucking weird and uncomfortable to read. Its one of my favorite SF books ever just because it went to disturbing places I wasn't expecting while also the same time having a pretty good sense of humor. Its also worth noting that she's been largely overlooked in an age where people keep sperging about women writing sci-fi. Dunno if its your style though, I reccomend you start higher up on this list.

Of course there's always Asimov. George Lucas flat-out admitted the Galactic Empire of Star Wars is named after the Galactic Empire of Foundation. Additionally, if you you want something more fun to read, Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat was one of the only books that actually had me laughing out loud at some of the descriptions and dialogue. I'm absolutely positive the character of Han Solo is a total ripoff of Slippery Jim.


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## Slap47 (Jun 28, 2019)

I've heard alot of cool stuff from those old books that Disney declared no longer canon.

"The Force" itself was a force that was actually evil. The Galaxy was invaded by extra-galactic invaders and that Death Star had to be remade after trillions of deaths, etc.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

Apoth42 said:


> I've heard alot of cool stuff from those old books that Disney declared no longer canon.
> 
> "The Force" itself was a force that was actually evil. The Galaxy was invaded by extra-galactic invaders and that Death Star had to be remade after trillions of deaths, etc.



Basic sci-fi bitch.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jun 28, 2019)

OP, you have a very weird thing about "legitimate authority". The ones that strangle people with their magic powers, or allow their officers to strangle people with their mind powers, or blow up entire fucking planets as a demonstration are the bad guys, it's not hard.

Now, I'll give you that all the various republics seemed wildly ineffective. But ineffective but well meaning vs effective and murderous is still an easy choice. I mean shit, maybe humans and various species of aliens just can't coexist and the real answer is space racism? Or... speciesism? Planetism? I don't even know what you'd call it at that point.


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## {o{P (Jun 28, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> I think they might be desperate enough to actually do it.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


This was so ridiculous i wrote it off as being from a tales issue


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## MW 590 (Jun 28, 2019)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> OP, you have a very weird thing about "legitimate authority". The ones that strangle people with their magic powers, or allow their officers to strangle people with their mind powers, or blow up entire fucking planets as a demonstration are the bad guys, it's not hard.
> 
> Now, I'll give you that all the various republics seemed wildly ineffective. But ineffective but well meaning vs effective and murderous is still an easy choice. I mean shit, maybe humans and various species of aliens just can't coexist and the real answer is space racism? Or... speciesism? Planetism? I don't even know what you'd call it at that point.


The Empire was legitimate authority because Palpatine became Emperor with the approval of the elected senate.

Darth Vader’s Force choke was just a  method of disciplining those who disobey the Empire and interrogating rebels. And in my original post I explained how the destruction of Alderaan as a method of trying to end war by forcing opponents into submission is no different than the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It cost lives, but it saved many more by ending the war.

The Empire’s goal was to bring peace to the galaxy through military might much like the Romans under Pax Romana. And they were speciest. All the stormtroopers and all the officers except for Thrawn were human. They rightfully considered aliens a threat since the Separatists in the Clone Wars were largely composed of aliens.


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## Syaoran Li (Jun 28, 2019)

Now @Jacob Harrison is trying to tie in Star Wars into his monarchist fantasies? 

Holy fuck, that is autistic even by my criminally low standards.

Star Wars, a massive franchise comprised of over ten movies and countless spin-offs, and only the Original Trilogy is any good, although I have yet to see Rogue One.

Three movies were enough. Although, I think the best thing to come out of the Star Wars franchise is the disco version of the original theme song...






May the Funk be with you, always....


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

Syaoran Li said:


> May the Funk be with you, always....



And I thought I was the only one who enjoyed that song. Maybe signing up for this autistic shithole wasn't a total waste of time after all.


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## Creep3r (Jun 28, 2019)

Syaoran Li said:


> and only the Original Trilogy is any good


I could argue about this, but at least give the pre-Disney video games a shot my dude. Also there's a lot that could be said about ROTJ (minus the perfection of the Luke+Vader+Emperor scenes), but ROTJ is so ingrained into our culture and childhoods that most people can overlook its flaws despite how nonsensical they are.



> although I have yet to see Rogue One.


Its basically a less memorable retelling of Dark Forces but with more forgettable characters and an edgy robot based on the one from KOTOR. Also excellent choice of music.


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## Red Hood (Jun 28, 2019)

Locomotive Derangement said:


> Dude, I was no-shit not joking that you should pick up some Asimov or Pournelle. Its clear you have an interest in this topic but your sense of taste is so tragically bad that I'm getting acute radiation sickness reading it. If you want to go hardcore you can also just start with Stirling right out of the gate like I did.


I've tried Foundation, and Asimov is an awful writer. Great ideas, shit execution. I've read a lot of pulp in my time, and Asimov in what I read has zero feel for characters.

Pournelle is good, but... 

Star Wars borrows some ideas from science fiction but recommending Hard SF to someone interested in Star Wars is a non-starter. I would recommend dipping one's toes in some softer or more action heavy SF while trying to move from Star Wars to something deeper. 

Star Wars is at its heart about action and emotion. It's not about how things actually work.



GeneralFriendliness said:


> At least give the pre-Disney video games a shot my dude. Also there's a lot that could be said about ROTJ (minus the perfection of the Luke+Vader+Emperor scenes), but ROTJ is so ingrained into our culture and childhoods that most people can overlook their flaws despite how nonsensical they are.
> 
> 
> Its basically a less memorable retelling of Dark Forces but with more forgettable characters and an edgy robot based on the one from KOTOR. Also excellent choice of music.


Why do I feel like I'm the only one that remembers Dark Forces has more than one level? Stealing the Death Star plans  is the first (very small) level of a game with 10(?) very large levels.


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## Creep3r (Jun 28, 2019)

The Shadow said:


> I've tried Foundation, and Asimov is an awful writer. Great ideas, shit execution. I've read a lot of pulp in my time, and Asimov in what I read has zero feel for characters.
> 
> Pournelle is good, but...
> 
> ...


Absolutely. I think that part of the appeal SW used to have before Disney, despite the criticisms of it being generic scifi from hardcore scifi fans or that the movies just re-used concepts from other scifi and fantasy works that we're all familiar with or were already done before, is that these issues are where most of the charm comes from. Its a universe that's an amalgamation of great things we never thought could co-exist, like Buck Rogers, Dune, Japanese cinema, D&D, asian folklore, medieval folklore, those old Astounding Science Fiction magazines, and so many other crazy and familiar ideas wrapped up into one package of old fashioned good vs evil+knights and sorcerers in space that somehow manages to work. So we can argue all day that George and his writers were borrowing ideas from other works and that SW's films and factions are generic, but the end result was a huge and very interesting setting that opened itself to all manner of ideas and tabletop RPG shenanigans that somehow created the perfect merger of scifi and fantasy with good old fashioned good vs evil stories. Meanwhile, Disney takes no ideas or influence from any better works or tries to create its own original concepts to accompany these non-existent ideas, they just keep trying to mimic the basic superficial structure of the OT and repeat the same plots and formulas in hopes of recapturing the same level of appeal and success but all the while sprinkling some woke seasoning onto everything, then wondering why SW has become such a divisive and declining topic.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

The Shadow said:


> I've tried Foundation, and Asimov is an awful writer. Great ideas, shit execution. I've read a lot of pulp in my time, and Asimov in what I read has zero feel for characters.
> 
> Pournelle is good, but...
> 
> ...



Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation. One I'm not sure is entirely correct though. Asimov's work is very sterile and this is primarily because he had a bad experience with his editor John W. Campbell and withdrew into mostly writing about mechanical themes such as robots and politics. I never got around to reading Nemesis though, which was supposedly a book he loves because it broke all of the taboos and features "aliens, sex, and alien sex". Given what SF writers get up to in their old age, I'm terrified of what kind of weird shit I'm going to find in there.

I stand by my Harry Harrison reccomendation though. Stainless Steel Rat is just pure fun and definitely had a hand in the character of Han Solo. Also, my In Conquest Born reccomendation stands, but that story's "heart" is more about despair, isolation, and intense psychological and emotional issues. Its not really a fun read. I can also reccomend H. Beam Piper, but he was a very optimistic author. Eventually killed himself, poor bastard.

Edit:

Also if we never reccomend hard SF to the kids they're never gonna read it. I'd rather some punk picks up a classic SF book, snorts and throws it on the ground than never think to touch it at all.


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## Creep3r (Jun 28, 2019)

Locomotive Derangement said:


> And I thought I was the only one who enjoyed that song. Maybe signing up for this autistic shithole wasn't a total waste of time after all.


Only tasteless plebeians could hate such a groovy jam.


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## Red Hood (Jun 28, 2019)

Locomotive Derangement said:


> Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation. One I'm not sure is entirely correct though. Asimov's work is very sterile and this is primarily because he had a bad experience with his editor John W. Campbell and withdrew into mostly writing about mechanical themes such as robots and politics. I never got around to reading Nemesis though, which was supposedly a book he loves because it broke all of the taboos and features "aliens, sex, and alien sex". Given what SF writers get up to in their old age, I'm terrified of what kind of weird shit I'm going to find in there.
> 
> I stand by my Harry Harrison reccomendation though. Stainless Steel Rat is just pure fun and definitely had a hand in the character of Han Solo. Also, my In Conquest Born reccomendation stands, but that story's "heart" is more about despair, isolation, and intense psychological and emotional issues. Its not really a fun read. I can also reccomend H. Beam Piper, but he was a very optimistic author. Eventually killed himself, poor bastard.
> 
> ...


That's the problem though. Star Wars isn't really sci fi. It just looks like it on the surface because space. 

Even jumping from Star Wars to Dune can be a big and uncomfortable shift due to the density of it. I prefer to walk a reader to harder SF. Usually depending on what their interests are- someone that doesn't have an interest in ecology probably isn't gonna love Brin's Uplift, and someone with no interest in Military SF isn't gonna want Hammer's Slammers or Armor as their first SF novel. Recommending the wrong "classic" can have the effect of turning someone off the genre forever.

Again, Star Wars has more in common with Lord of the Rings or a white hats vs black hats western. It's, as one of the VHS trailers said "an epic adventure of heroes and villains". And that's what it is. It's the classic heroes journey told in a space adventure setting with influence from just about every genre imaginable.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 28, 2019)

The Shadow said:


> That's the problem though. Star Wars isn't really sci fi. It just looks like it on the surface because space.
> 
> Even jumping from Star Wars to Dune can be a big and uncomfortable shift due to the density of it. I prefer to walk a reader to harder SF.



Dune is, in retrospect, an extremely bad measuring stick for this kind of thing. Its a great novel with a great universe, but Herbert has a very specific writing style that to this day I haven't encountered much that compares. Even his use of tense is kind of weird and took some getting used to. One thing Asimov has the advantage in is, regardless of how vague his characters are, his text is very easy to pick up and read. Piper was pretty good with this too, with better characters, but with less interesting settings.

This is filtered a lot through my perspective though and frankly had I started with Star Wars tie-in novels, I probably would have lost interest and never read SF at all. I got into SF via horror novels like Stephen King though, maybe my autism is just a different strain. I'm certain even a younger reader today could find something in the classic SF section that is easy to read and easy to get into. Hell, Piper wrote a story where the characters land on a planet with a perfect copy of medieval Europe other than the names and they just decide to take the fucker over with their modern tech. That's pretty fantasy-ish by "hard" SF standards.

Edit: Wanted to add that Armor is a totally underrated book. I'd actually reccomend that to early SF readers first instead of Starship Troopers. ST is a fascinating book but it was very tedious at times and Armor has a much more emotional story.


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## Red Hood (Jun 29, 2019)

Locomotive Derangement said:


> Dune is, in retrospect, an extremely bad measuring stick for this kind of thing. Its a great novel with a great universe, but Herbert has a very specific writing style that to this day I haven't encountered much that compares. Even his use of tense is kind of weird and took some getting used to. One thing Asimov has the advantage in is, regardless of how vague his characters are, his text is very easy to pick up and read. Piper was pretty good with this too, with better characters, but with less interesting settings.
> 
> This is filtered a lot through my perspective though and frankly had I started with Star Wars tie-in novels, I probably would have lost interest and never read SF at all. I got into SF via horror novels like Stephen King though, maybe my autism is just a different strain. I'm certain even a younger reader today could find something in the classic SF section that is easy to read and easy to get into. Hell, Piper wrote a story where the characters land on a planet with a perfect copy of medieval Europe other than the names and they just decide to take the fucker over with their modern tech. That's pretty fantasy-ish by "hard" SF standards.
> 
> Edit: Wanted to add that Armor is a totally underrated book. I'd actually reccomend that to early SF readers first instead of Starship Troopers. ST is a fascinating book but it was very tedious at times and Armor has a much more emotional story.


Eh, at least a few of the Star Wars books I read as a kid got me to check out the authors' other work (Timothy Zahn and Michael Stackpole, mostly). But I was reading Bradbury before I ever picked up a Star Wars novel, so I was always at least dipping my toes in some level of SF/F.


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## Autocrat (Jun 29, 2019)

Jacob Harrison said:


> Think of the First Order as the antithesis to what the Disney SJWs believe in. Then you will come to admire them and Kylo Ren.



This thread is an interesting take. I'd need to look into it more. Maybe rewatch all of the movies, which would be cool.
From what I've read in the books, I agree with Sith philosophy.
Wheres the Jedi would like for themselves and everyone else to conform with the will of the universe (yet they are such an active player, which may be their supposed hypocrisy that's talked about?), the Sith want the universe to conform to their will. Complete opposites, yet Sith seem to be more openminded to using both "sides" of the force to accomplish their goals.

However, Kylo Ren is a pretty shitty character that I don't admire. He killed his father in an effort to eliminate his empathy. The thing is, he could've utilized Solo + his mother, and thereby co opted the rebel movement in order to take power from Snoke. So he's a shitty strategist. He had no idea what he was doing once he killed Snoke and needed to take orders from General Hux while pretending they were his idea. He doesn't command respect. He's a shitty leader.
That only leaves combat, where he is yet again obviously lacking.

There's nothing to admire.


———————
P.S. Any Sith and/or Empire oriented book recommendations?



Shokew said:


> In war, NO ONE should be seen as a clear-cut good or bad guy. Where Gundam (especially in the old school years) got this right most of the time



I need to rewatch Gundam Wing. Haven't since it since the 2000 airing on Toonami


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 29, 2019)

Autocrat said:


> P.S. Any Sith and/or Empire oriented book recommendations?


The Thrawn trilogy, Dark Empire, Darth Bane trilogy and Darth Plagueis come to my mind.


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## Zaryiu (Oct 24, 2019)

GeneralFriendliness said:


> I think they might be desperate enough to actually do it.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


This prove nothing, there was a Disney Marvel Star Wars comic that had Han, Chewie and Leia (I mean OT era Leia) with Lightsabers, that didn't made them Jedi/Sith


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## Emperor Julian (Oct 24, 2019)

The yuzhan vong retocon fucking sucks, anyone who defends anything in the EU set after dark Empire should be ignored.

The Empire is chronically overated because all it's stuff looks cool. The republic lasted for thousands of years whereas the under a century and about half it's problems where because it's leadership where crazy and evil.

They disbanded the Senate and blew up a key political and cultural world in the same week, even if the death star hadnt then been blown up they'd bassically done the political equivelant of a head of state announcing they're planning to run the nation into the dirt on live tv and this is all relies on no one realizing he was the guy who deliberatly caused the last civil war is the head of state.

God only knows what the day to day running a state Controlled by an evil wizard head of a ultra violent evil wizard organization would actually look like


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## Creep3r (Oct 24, 2019)

Zaryiu said:


> This prove nothing, there was a Disney Marvel Star Wars comic that had Han, Chewie and Leia (I mean OT era Leia) with Lightsabers, that didn't made them Jedi/Sith


I'd really hate to bump a thread that's needlessly been bumped from obscurity, but it doesn't matter if it proves anything even though it doesn't. The comic was theory bait for idiots on reddit to make memes out of to try and get free advertisement for the comics.



Emperor Julian said:


> The yuzhan vong retocon fucking sucks, anyone who defends anything in the EU set after dark Empire should be ignored.


I sort of agree. I honestly liked everything whether good or bad up until 25ABY when the Vong showed up. The Vong are basically Disney before Disney. They went around nullifying the achievements of the heroes and they nuked more than a quarter of the galaxy including all my favorite planets. And to make matters worse the payoff wasn't even that good after the good guys won since things only seemed to get worse and fixing the busted planets would take ages. The concept sounds good on paper I guess, but the execution was like some fart sniffer's attempt at introducing 40k into Star Wars because Games Workshop and Forgotten Realms wouldn't accept his super special edgy Hellraiser Drow faction into their canon. Only thing I liked about the Vong was the amount of detail put into their belief system and all that bio-engineered tech. Otherwise the Vong really didn't need to exist. The galaxy didn't need another galaxy-wide conflict that was somehow even bigger than the Galactic Civil War, at least not yet. I only regret that Filoni Wars didn't get to introduce their own version of the Vong they had been planning which would've retconned their entire series and probably force it into a reboot, rewrite or a complete removal.


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## Oskar Dirlewanger (Oct 24, 2019)

First of all if you care about Soy Wars at all or purchase this product you should be euthanized, it goes without saying, Soy Wars purchasers are worse than pedos (and they are all probably pedos anyway since they keep autistic screeching about entertainment aimed for 7 year olds, how's that different from the pony niggas?).

Second of all I remember seeing A New Hope at like 7 years old with my dad in the cinema, and afterwise I told him Death Star was the coolest shit, like a giant space station that can destroy planets and TIE Fighters come out of it, and my dad told me I'm not supposed to like the Death Star because the Empire is evil etc. Lol what a fucking cuck.


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