# Is "body positivity" contributing to the trans trend?



## Sperghetti (Jan 29, 2021)

These two posts were in the Jazz Jennings thread, which I didn't want to derail with my Deep Thoughts™.



Letora said:


> I agree with you. It goes even beyond toddler age, and into puberty especially.
> 
> Bit of a power level here, but I fucking hated puberty. I hated the changes that were happening to my body. I felt fat and ugly. I didn't want hips, I didn't want thigh fat, I didn't want body odor, I didn't want a period, I didn't want boobs. I fucking HATED wearing a bra, it felt so restrictive and awful, and I wanted to go back to being a skinny, nondescript kid, running around in just a t-shirt. I even flirted with thoughts like "I wish I was a boy so I didn't have to wear a bra." Hating bras and women's clothing is also common in autistic women because of the way they itch, squeeze, pinch, and scratch. I wore men's shirts for a period of time, but didn't really want to be a man. I was at least intelligent enough to understand that my problem was not with being female, but that I didn't like the human experience in general. Having a wiener wouldn't have improved anything.
> 
> ...





NoReturn said:


> You absolutely are not alone. It's mind-blowing to see so many young women on social media transitioning, and how many of them believe what their going through is something special and unique and indicative of "dysphoria" rather than just the fact that female puberty sucks.
> And shit, man, even I didn't end up liking the color pink until I was an adult just because it got shoved on me so much as a kid.


These got me thinking… do you guys think all the “love your body” and “don’t be ashamed” shit that gets pushed on teenagers and young women these days is actually making this worse?

I don’t know about you guys, but one of the major contributing factors of my discomfort at that age was the sheer amount of sources that wanted to talk at you about puberty and sex. The people who did this believed they were being nothing but helpful and educational since it’s what they wished others would have done for them as a teenager, but I _didn’t_ want that so to me, it just felt extremely uncomfortable and almost borderline violating. (Namely because you were a captive audience to this shit about 99% of the time.)

I say that because lot of the people who are drawn to that “body positive” mentality seem to have that same motivation — they believe they’re being helpful because it’s what they want somebody to tell _them_, so they assume everyone else must be the same way. They fully believe that people only feel uncomfortable with their bodies because somebody else _told_ them to feel that way, and they're very open with stating this "fact".

But that isn't the case at all. Even just from reading personal anecdotes here at the Farms, it seems like there’s a great many people who felt uncomfortable at puberty and even for years after, because _puberty is just an inherently uncomfortable and awkward time_.

What I’m getting at is that it’s already bad enough to be feeling miserable because of some bodily thing you have no control over, but then to be constantly bombarded with well-meaning-but-tone-deaf messages that you _should_ enjoy it and be proud of it and show yourself off and talk openly about your bodily functions… well, it's no wonder that some of these teenagers end up feeling like something's wrong with them for being uncomfortable in the first place. 

I used to be surprised that there wasn't more animosity between the body-positive types and the trans community (like there is between the trans community and feminists) because their ideals seem completely opposed: Being openly proud of your body completely as-is versus using medication and surgery to change your body so you like it more. But after thinking about it, it's a very quick step from "everyone _should_ love their body" to "if you don't love your body, you need to change it into something you DO love".

Anyway, thoughts?


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## EnemyStand (Jan 29, 2021)

Yeah, that write up seems pretty on point. Powerleveling a little, so bear with me, but I'm a fat fuck. I wear it better than most, but it's obvious I'm pretty overweight. I used to be a skinny bitch until I hit puberty, and yeah, I have some problems with body image. But I didn't get coddled by my family. Still don't. And I take responsibility for what I did to myself. I overeat and have issues with staying motivated to exercise.

My point, is that compared to the body positive crowd I'm...well, not happier but it weighs on my mind a little less because I accept it's my. Fucking. Fault. So there's no pride or anything, I'm just another fat geek and I don't tell people to love me for it. Now, the body positive people don't take responsibility, but still want the asspats that come with being fit and pretty. So they demand them. Call you fatphobic and a Nazi and whatever else is the insult du jour and try to delude themselves I should want to fuck them as they cram a whole pizza down their throat. In a way, a lot of them are Nice Guys and Nice Girls who blame the "pretty people" who use a treadmill as something more than a coat rack for taking all the quality (meaning sexy) men. Shame is meant to be a motivator, and since shame is now verboten in our society, it leads to lazy, unmotivated people who think everything should change but them. So they cry when they need to buy one seat per ass cheek on the plane or train, cry when their food bills are out of control because their appetite is out of control, and sue when a doctor with an ounce of ethical behavior tells them they need to drop some poundage to get healthier. They're told it's not their fault, and they want to believe that's true. If reality conflicts, the three D's come in. Deny, deny, deny.


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## Jarolleon (Jan 29, 2021)

Sperghetti said:


> These two posts were in the Jazz Jennings thread, which I didn't want to derail with my Deep Thoughts™.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder what proportion of transtrenders are FtM, the higher that portion the stronger a factor this could be. Tumblrettes do occasionally remember that "body positivity" should logically apply to men too but the main & original thrust of it was about telling girls that they don't have to look like swimsuit models, or (if you're a cynic) cratering female beauty standards so legbeard cat ladies don't get tormented by the existence of prettier women anymore.


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## NoReturn (Jan 29, 2021)

Sperghetti said:


> But after thinking about it, it's a very quick step from "everyone _should_ love their body" to "if you don't love your body, you need to change it into something you DO love".





Sperghetti said:


> Even just from reading personal anecdotes here at the Farms, it seems like there’s a great many people who felt uncomfortable at puberty and even for years after, because _puberty is just an inherently uncomfortable and awkward time_.


I think you're on to something if not completely nailing it. I'm one of those people for whom it was awkward and uncomfortable and scary, and looking back at it all I do think that the well-intentioned did end up making things worse. I think it would have helped more to hear someone say "Yeah, it does suck." or "It's okay to feel the way you feel. Here's what you can do to feel better." instead of pushing all this super-positive bullshit.


EnemyStand said:


> I'm a fat fuck.





EnemyStand said:


> So they cry when they need to buy one seat per ass cheek on the plane or train, cry when their food bills are out of control because their appetite is out of control, and sue when a doctor with an ounce of ethical behavior tells them they need to drop some poundage to get healthier.


But you don't do that shit, right? What do you think were some of the key factors that kept you from going down that path?


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## Bloitzhole (Jan 29, 2021)

While the idea doesn't seem that far fetched from the way you argue , I don't see the actual overlap between the recipients of body positivity messages (young women) and the people actually getting surgeries, as evidenced by this table in a meta study . And if the data suggests that the crowd these messages were most targeted at is trooning  far far less, it's probably not a big factor - if it is, we might see so in 5 years or whenever a more current survey is published and a ton more ftm show up.
The study notes though that females might just be better at passing so they don't bother actually transitioning. I think it's just a new kinda tomboy phase that most teenagers undergoing it will grow out of or just incorporate little traits of into their adult personality - hopefully in a healthy way.


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## EnemyStand (Jan 29, 2021)

NoReturn said:


> I think you're on to something if not completely nailing it. I'm one of those people for whom it was awkward and uncomfortable and scary, and looking back at it all I do think that the well-intentioned did end up making things worse. I think it would have helped more to hear someone say "Yeah, it does suck." or "It's okay to feel the way you feel. Here's what you can do to feel better." instead of pushing all this super-positive bullshit.
> 
> 
> But you don't do that shit, right? What do you think were some of the key factors that kept you from going down that path?


Correct. And there are two reasons. First one is despite my excess bulk I happened to win the genetic lottery when it comes to fatness. I was a broad, stocky fuck even when I was fit, my heart and bones are stronger than average, and my body puts on muscle easier than most. So I can still move appropriately for a dude my age (even if I tire faster than I should) and I'm just on the cusp of not hanging over my seat too much. Plus I go through cycles where I get serious about working out for a couple months at a time, so I avoided going from fat fuck to FREEEEEEE WILLLLLLLYYYYYY!

Second is self-reflection. I know what I look like, so I have no illusions about my attractiveness. So i have two choices: either get over myself and do my best despite my failings, or REEEEEEE because I had one dozen too many Reese's Cup donuts and not be a fun guy people like to be around. I chose to be a jolly fat man, and making that choice helps me avoid being like many of these cows we enjoy laughing at believe it or not.


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## Hambubger (Jan 30, 2021)

Im pretty sure some that troon out think surgeries will give them the bodies they desire


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## Fliddaroonie (Jan 30, 2021)

Hambubger said:


> Im pretty sure some that troon out think surgeries will give them the bodies they desire


This is so true in fat ftms.  They think testosterone and looping off their tits will fix things.


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## ExsanguinateHorizon (Jan 30, 2021)

It's kind of strange because you'd expect the opposite to happen. Comforting kids that it's normal to be uncomfortable is basically the 'it gets better' message to prevent youth from necking themselves over dumb highschool bullshit.

This doesn't seem to be the correlating cause though, but rather a corrupted form of the message. If a young girl thinks she's trans, the correct method should be to sit down with her and seriously go through the therapeutic process to figure out what the core of the issue is. Tell her it's alright feel different, but that most people do and let's figure out why she feels that way. Normalize and smooth it out instead of exacerbating her feelings of 'other' and tossing praise and reward for nothing.

But that's too fucking hard, so manipulative and mentally ill adults sacrifice her for social clout while screaming yaaas nonbinary trans kween on social media. Tumblr/woke art is a pretty stark reflection of this - people certainly shouldn't be 'ashamed' of being unattractive, fat, disfigured etc but tumblr fetishized those qualities. Woke art is wretchedly ugly, but that's a giant circle jerk too. They never praise actual achievements or overcoming real hardship, only that you're non-white, covered in stretch marks and are a ptsd survivor of online gaming.


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## Banworld (Jan 30, 2021)

In a more basic way it is - fat people look the same regardless of sex and so it's easier to transition when you already have tits either way along with no discernible male or female figure.

Compare Jim Sterling in his wig to the health minister of Belgium. Their fatness makes them both just look like ugly amorphous blobs. Their fat has eliminated identifying sexual characteristics.


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## Spangled Drongo (Jan 30, 2021)

There does seem to be a bit of a double standard at play. I always took the “love yourself!” thing to just be all about preventing eating disorders and not comparing yourself to airbrushed images of models, with fat acceptance being that message taken to its logical extreme. Gender never really came into it when I was growing up as the big shift towards all this gender stuff didn’t really come about until just after I’d finished high school.



Spoiler: Powerlevel



However, I absolutely see where you’re coming from as I was raised by very left wing parents who vocally identified as feminists and always told me “being a woman is wonderful no matter how much society holds you back” but I was never much of a “girly girl” as a teen in the early 2010s, lacked interest in makeup, fashion, dating and all the other typical teenage girl things, and the idea of womanhood frankly scared me because of all the expectations that come with it. I just wanted to go on doing the same things I always had, playing video games and reading, without any of this pesky puberty stuff getting in the way, and though at that point the gender stuff hadn’t quite made it to the mainstream as it has now, I was quite active on Tumblr and was exposed to it through there. So I did take on a “non binary” identity for a year or so (keeping it to myself at school though as it was still obscure at that point and I was worried my classmates wouldn’t understand) and also thought I might have been asexual because of my fear of a real life sexual relationship even though I had many fictional and celebrity crushes, but no counsellor I saw had ever heard of any of those identities so it was just brushed off as me being awkward and a result of my low self esteem, which it was. To this day I’m not super fussed about my appearance and continue to enjoy playing vidya and tabletop games, realising that hobbies and tastes don’t determine your gender, but knowing a lot of these kids also have very left wing parents who give them the same “love yourself!” messages makes me definitely see something of my younger self in them.



So to me the “body positive” movement is hypocritical - what it’s trying to say is “if you’re a big chungus who has difficulty breathing you’re stunning and brave, don’t change a thing about yourself, BUT if you hate your sexual organs don’t be afraid to chop them off!” It really comes down to this whole intersectionality thing that’s crept into just about everything.


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## Hankypanko (Jan 30, 2021)

I don't think body positivity has a lick to do with it starting them off. I think it's genuine internal hatred, at least for women who transition into men.


Spoiler: To avoid shitting the thread up



Puberty is so formative in how women look at their self-identity, and more and more in the past 10 years women have been hyper-idealised. Of course you had it before, but even 10 years ago people moaned about how companies were making bras for young girls, it was at least a little more innocent. Now, they look up to these women and want to be them desperately. Big tits, big ass, impossible photoshopped face. You think 12 year old girls care about what joe tranny schmoe who loves his fat body is ranting about? Fuck no, they're watching rich girls on YouTube with fake tits and lips, who have enough plastic in them you could melt them down and make them into a Lego set.

So what do you get? That environment, where girls see this idolised form of womanhood all over their entertainment in a way that's never been done before, and they grow up ugly and dowdy. Well shit, that's not womanly. That's not successful, or wanted. Maybe that's not what this girl is. Maybe they're not a girl. Maybe they're nonbinary (because that's a thing now), and the more they think on it perhaps they're a boy. They convince themselves, it becomes a solid idea. And in the end they transition.

Trans men I know didn't grow up with that, but all of them I know had strikingly similar teenage years. Unpopular, not pretty, masculine hobbies, bullied, and always ALWAYS saw other prettier girls being absolute little whores and not identifying with it.

It's that insipid thought of, "is this what I'm supposed to be like?" The answer they get when they look is, "Yes, because those girls are liked and you aren't. But if you feel like this then maybe you're the one who is wrong. And those feelings are valid, even if they feel horrible and uncomfortable, because they're yours and you should come to terms with that."  So they do. They find their excuses eventually and they stick with it. They're not like other girls, because they aren't a girl.

Body positivity is the result. It's a calling card for all of these uncomfortable and unhappy people to come together and forget and live completely placated by vapid platitudes and meaningless praise, where they rally against the skinnies and the cishets and the neurotypicals because they're angry that they aren't them. Maybe it draws people in, but you gotta be feeling a certain way to start looking in the first place.



Edit: spelling


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## Mococoa (Jan 30, 2021)

Jarolleon said:


> I wonder what proportion of transtrenders are FtM, the higher that portion the stronger a factor this could be. Tumblrettes do occasionally remember that "body positivity" should logically apply to men too but the main & original thrust of it was about telling girls that they don't have to look like swimsuit models, or (if you're a cynic) cratering female beauty standards so legbeard cat ladies don't get tormented by the existence of prettier women anymore.


I do believe that there are an alarming amount of girls and women identifying as trans and non binary. I wish I could google the resources for you but when I do it just comes up with shit like “are you trans?! questioning you gender identity? how to respect non binary folx” so I can’t provide evidence. Perhaps I’ll edit and come back.

But female puberty does suck. I’m a young adult today and I often feel sorry for the younger girls going through puberty today. Is it really any surprise that they want to opt out of womanhood when to be a woman in today’s view is heavily commodified? We have plastic barbie-looking freaks who are overly displayed in pornography, photoshopped ‘models’ plastered all over social media, and everything else about women seems to be up for rent. Poor? Why not become a surrogate? Or a sex worker? It’s emPoWeRiNG as a true and honest woman to do degrading and traumatic things. So it’s no wonder more and more girls and women are choosing not to be women any more. I think they troon out not necessarily because they want to be a man, but because they don’t want to be objectified. I do know that a lot of non binary women will hack off their breasts, and will often have eating disorders to have a more ambiguous looking figure.


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## HensKenKline (Jan 30, 2021)

Interesting idea, but I think it might be overcomplicating it. Some people, especially at young age, are more fragile and weak-minded than others and easily accepting of suggestions or afraid to think against the stream.

The contradiction here that you observe about the ideals of body positivity and trannydom being conflicting can in my opinion be abstracted further and looked at from a different angle. What does being fat and being a tranny have in common? It's poisonous dumb retarded garbage that destroys life if you embrace it. Those "principles" each of them proclaim to have (like "accept your body") are just red herrings - they sound kinda "wise" if you don't think about them too much but really they only serve to make you think that the people saying them are sane and "like you" and that they care about empathy and shit. Of course any normal person will agree with "accept your body", what's to disagree with? But a sane person will then also go the next step and say "I accept my body, but that doesn't mean I can't work on making and keeping it healthy and fit so it will last me longer and make me feel better".

Stuff like "accept your body" are justifications for their beliefs that will keep normal people from lynching them. If somebody asks why they believe in this stuff, they can't very well say "I hate humans and love to see them suffer". They have to pretend that their beliefs are at least based on some good intent that normal people can relate to. That way even someone who disagrees with them will at least not outright attack them. In the best case scenario (for them) people will actually feel guilty for disagreeing because they do agree with the pretend-principle. So they come up with these belief-justifications and "principles". I bet it hurts them every time they have to say it out loud because they actually do not believe in it.

That's why their ideology (or that which they pretend to be their ideology) is full of contradictions. And that is also why responding to them with reason and arguments leads nowhere - you aren't actually arguing against their true beliefs, only against their pretend-beliefs.

Note also how on one hand the tranny movement is basically all about believing in some magical thing (your "true self" if you will) that they just somehow intuit and "just know", yet they will make fun of theists for basically following the same logical route towards their faith. It is almost as if they simultaneously believe in a soul (your "true gender [=personality]") that is "caught in the wrong body", yet find the idea of a soul (if you spell it out that way) ridiculous.

Also, if your emotions and self-conception tell you to be a masculine badass man who slays pussy and gets shit done, they will very much invalidate and question your own emotions about this and gaslight you into thinking that this is all just a "social construct" and internalized patriarchy, yet if your emotions tell you that you are a woman in a man's body, they will unquestioningly support this. And of course this can be abstracted in the same way as the original contradiction: Being a confident man means you have agency and health and sanity and it makes you harder to control. Being delusional and wanting to cut off your dick and questioning your masculinity make you weak, puny and easy to control.

TLDR: If your body/mind is shit, ugly and weak, they will tell you to accept it. If your body/mind is great, fit, healthy, they will tell you to question it. Tear down what's good, use your own mind against you, and encourage evil and bad life choices to make you weak and docile. And if you question your own bad ways especially, make you feel bad for identifying your own errors, gaslight you with shame and guilt until you stop questioning your own bad ways, because recognizing your mistakes would lead you onto a path of bettering yourself and they don't want that.


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## peetz cum sock (Jan 30, 2021)

If teenagers were encouraged to do physical activity with their bodies (sports, hiking, making things, caring for others) rather than, as you put it, "talked at" about replacing their negative focus on their bodies to a superficially positive focus on their bodies, I believe there would be more appreciation for what they can _do_ as opposed to whether they fit whichever aesthetic is popular at the time, including the trans trend. No wonder people feel disconnected from their bodies when they live in the social media simulacrum.

edit: repeated word


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## Sperghetti (Jan 30, 2021)

I guess I’m being a bit misinterpreted here, as I wasn’t _primarily_ talking about fat people or the HAES crowd here, or how many fat people transition as opposed to skinny people. I meant the more generic “feminist” version of the message that’s more about celebrating your flaws and looking down on people who think their periods are gross. The sort of mentality that Tumblr artists take to the extreme that makes them draw people purposely ugly and hair-covered. (I’m not sure there’s really a seperate term for that that hasn’t been coopted by the HAES crowd.)

Nor was I really talking about anyone who goes through with surgery, just teenagers (particularly girls) considering themselves to be trans.



NoReturn said:


> I think you're on to something if not completely nailing it. I'm one of those people for whom it was awkward and uncomfortable and scary, and looking back at it all I do think that the well-intentioned did end up making things worse. I think it would have helped more to hear someone say "Yeah, it does suck." or "It's okay to feel the way you feel. Here's what you can do to feel better." instead of pushing all this super-positive bullshit.


I think there are a _lot_ of people who would benefit from hearing that feeling uncomfortable in your own skin is common and that it gets better with time. And that likewise, being grossed out or embarrassed by your body is also quite normal, and wanting to keep your dignity about it doesn't mean something's wrong with you. Not everyone mirrors _Are You There God? It's Me Margaret_.



peetz cum sock said:


> If teenagers were encouraged to do physical activity with their bodies (sports, hiking, making things, caring for others) rather than, as you put it, "talked at" about replacing their negative focus on their bodies negatively to a superficially positive focus on their bodies, I believe there would be more appreciation for what they can _do_ as opposed to whether they fit whichever aesthetic is popular at the time, including the trans trend. No wonder people feel disconnected from their bodies when they live in the social media simulacrum.


That's an excellent point. So much of both of the trans trend and the body positivity mentality are about shallow appearances, even though both try to pretend they're actually about some deeper truth. At the end of the day, they both revolve entirely around how you present to others, not who you internally are or what you can do. Another thing that I hear a lot of people describe is being afraid of the "expectations" of being a woman (or man), and that often translates to the fear that growing up would mean that they'd have to abandon their current interests and hobbies and general attitude. I think a lot of this fear would be quelled if, like you said, teenagers were more encouraged to focus on what they can actually go _do_.


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## Spangled Drongo (Jan 30, 2021)

Sperghetti said:


> I guess I’m being a bit misinterpreted here, as I wasn’t _primarily_ talking about fat people or the HAES crowd here, or how many fat people transition as opposed to skinny people. I meant the more generic “feminist” version of the message that’s more about celebrating your flaws and looking down on people who think their periods are gross. The sort of mentality that Tumblr artists take to the extreme that makes them draw people purposely ugly and hair-covered. (I’m not sure there’s really a seperate term for that that hasn’t been coopted by the HAES crowd.)



I get you - when feminists are pushing female puberty as some magical exciting time and glorifying periods, to a young girl who’s shy or just not confident, all that rhetoric can be cringe inducing and make them want nothing to do with it. (This was my experience) And if hating your breasts and periods = _internalised misogyny,_ in feminist speak, then the easiest way to avoid such accusations? Claim to not be female at all but in fact, actually male or non binary on the inside.

Though the “female bodies are beautiful and amazing!” thing might be considered “TERF” nowadays as it excludes the male troons who are _envious_ of female puberty. It’s hard to keep up.




Sperghetti said:


> Another thing that I hear a lot of people describe is being afraid of the "expectations" of being a woman (or man), and that often translates to the fear that growing up would mean that they'd have to abandon their current interests and hobbies and general attitude. I think a lot of this fear would be quelled if, like you said, teenagers were more encouraged to focus on what they can actually go _do_.


. Rather than getting bombarded with all these messages about how body parts/functions are somehow empowering, it would do these kids good to hear that no matter what changes you undergo, the most important thing is _being yourself_, i.e. doing things for yourself that you enjoy, and that navigating the world of sexuality and relationships, deciding whether or not you want to have a baby, etc. can wait. And when the time comes for those things, they still don’t define who you are as a person. You’d have to sell it a certain way, though - teens think they know it all, and sometimes get a bit snippy when authority figures tell them what to do.


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## Kosher Dill (Jan 30, 2021)

I don't think body positivity plays into it at all, it's more that being female has always been rough and is only getting worse. Once the suggestion has been planted, of course there's going to be the temptation to think "Maybe I'm miserable because I'm the wrong sex".

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that adopting a custom gender is a sort of "cheat code" for social interactions. It's quite common for teens to be celebrated for coming out as LGBTVHS, make new friends, get love-bombed by internet creeps, and so on. That's necessarily going to be a temptation for people struggling to find their footing in the new world of young adulthood. And it's a one-way ratchet - the more you build your social circle and identity on this stuff, the harder it is to say "I guess it was just a phase".


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## Cool Dude 69 (Jan 30, 2021)

I think when one of our Loud, Irritating Fat Grifters goes Trans, it may be... just a little bit? part of the grift. And in bigger part, a lot of cognative dissonances. You see the same thing happens when people try to actually get in shape and have to dance around eggshells in the Fat Pos community. It might be mentally less difficult to turn around and say "UMM I DONT THINK I'M THE RIGHT GENDER"

People who are very fat, sometimes mention how they experience gender. And I believe those observations do have some basis in reality and do affect how they feel about sex, sexuality and gender. Its probably just an easier path to take than a different, drastic life change. And you get to keep your grift.


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## CobraPlissken (Jan 30, 2021)

I think the way both ideologies are interconnected is in the insistence of treating your body as a separate entity from your mind, and in that both are death cults that encourage people — and girls are more vulnerable to it, since a lot of their value in society depends on how attractive they are, how capable they are of attracting a mate to breed, and it's quite scary for a lot of them to realize it — to destroy their bodies so they can be "themselves". 

While "body positivity" seems to suggest that you should love your body as it is, it's only on the surface. It's actually a way more passive approach to self-destruction: loving your body often means doing things that will bring you discomfort — like exercising, eating healthy meals, undergoing sometimes painful and uncomfortable medical tests regularly, and so on — but the bopo movement encourages you to do otherwise under the guise of "self-love" , "mental health" and "acceptance". 

The trans trend is a more aggressive approach: it encourages you to be more proactive in your self-destruction by taking hormones that will wreak havoc in your organs and maiming your body with surgery, also under the guise of "self-love", "mental health" and "acceptance".


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## Wuornos (Jan 30, 2021)

The majority of troons are White. It is predominantly White children who are being encouraged to mutilate their bodies and sterilise themselves. Troonism is just another facet of the demographically targetted depopulation program.


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## crownthefempire (Jan 30, 2021)

I think it's just in general that the internet is allowing people to see positive depictions of trans people a lot earlier in life than before, and generally a lot of people being more accepting.

Like, for someone a little older than me your only experience with trans people at all might be Ace Ventura or Buffalo Bill. You might just think "yeah this is a bad thing" and ignore every thought you have about it. And for trans guys, name one mainstream depiction before Sonny and Cher's kid came out?


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## NoReturn (Jan 30, 2021)

Longcat said:


> However, I absolutely see where you’re coming from as I was raised by very left wing parents who vocally identified as feminists and always told me “being a woman is wonderful no matter how much society holds you back”


This is the dumbest reference ever, but:


Spoiler










alternatively




I don't think the well-intentioned thought through the implications of constant messaging like: "You might get _raped and murdered in a dark alley_ but that's not right so live how you want!" and "Every boss you have will want to fuck you, but you can make it to the top without sleeping with them!"
I'm not saying that these people should have kept their daughters ignorant of real social issues, but maybe this could have been handled better.


Mococoa said:


> I wish I could google the resources for you but when I do it just comes up with shit like “are you trans?! questioning you gender identity? how to respect non binary folx”


It doesn't help when they are surrounded by pants-on-head retarded stuff like this:




The messaging is clear: Being "cis" is backward, problematic, boring, and inherently oppressive to minority sexual and gender identities.


Longcat said:


> Though the “female bodies are beautiful and amazing!” thing might be considered “TERF” nowadays as it excludes the male troons who are _envious_ of female puberty.


Not to mention that young women are seeing these creeps fetishistizing their experiences and thinking "If I'm not thrilled about this - as these people claim they would be - then I must be trans."


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## FeatherPlucker (Feb 12, 2021)

Meh, I think it's the cultural normalization of porn, as in internet pornography.
These men/kids are so obsessed with the objects of their obsession that they literally WANT to become "porn chicks". Note how so many tr00ns parody the kinds of traits one sees in women depicted in porn. 
Add also the flagrant propaganda campaigns social media platforms are pushing on children in particular-- grooming them into the idea that "transitioning is the key to happiness!" 
Girls who are exposed to this stuff often DON'T want to wind up being the women they see depicted in porn, so a portion of them decide "I don't want to be like those girls, so I must be trans!"


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## Banditotron (Feb 14, 2021)

It's that no one is allowed to tell them to fuck off and leave children alone. Plain and simple.


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## Sriracha (Feb 14, 2021)

I think trans is just a fetish that people are trying to legitimise. I can understand why people associate it with body positivity, because fat chicks and trannies want to be accepted by the public as a whole, but other than that I don't see how the two movements overlap.

I think that it's normal to go through dysmorphia when you're a teenager because the changes you experience happen so fast. I feel as though when you're a teenager, you become a lot more conscious of how your outward appearance leaves an impression on others which is why teenagers go through trends like emo, goth, etc. You also have no real idea of who you are, what you stand for and what you even really want out of life and you're expected to figure out an identity for yourself to connect with and be recognised by others. 

Another thing is trannies don't have a realistic idea of what they will look like when they transition, they only see the best possible outome. They think that if they could become a woman, they would be treated with sympathy, get a lot of positive attention and be attractive/their sexualised idea of themselves. It's pretty much the same for FtM as well, it's just a fetishised idea of the role reversal. 

I don't understand the whole 'love yourself' part of body positivity. Everybody hates parts of themselves. If you only have things you love about yourself, there is no value in trying to be better.


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## LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV] (Feb 14, 2021)

Body Positivity should be redirected back to making fat people feel good about taking care of themselves rather than ashamed for trying. Ex. When fit bros and fit gals defend and stand up fo chubby person at the gym from another fit person mocking them and teach them the ropes without making them feel excluded, that's body positive. Just telling someone being fat and a slob is awesome is not positive at all, is just condescending.

Same with letting people know that stuff they can't change and were born with is ok, like, it doesn't matter if you don't  have the genes of a super model , if you are not tall enough or have a bigger nose or whatevr skin color,   you can still be pretty your own way and have some dignity and self esteem . If we take that as body positive then it would be contradictory to what trans people are looking for since, you could, you know, be comfortable in the body you already have instead of feeling you need surgery and massive ammounts of cosmetic to change it. But body positive instead is just telling non passing people they are beautiful honey bunches, which again, is just condescending and infantilizing bullshit no thinking adult should fall for, and many don't , that i take it contributes to the depression and suicide statistic. Even an autismo would probably get sick of people acting condescending to them and lying, there's nothing positive about that.



Moloko said:


> The majority of troons are White. It is predominantly White children who are being encouraged to mutilate their bodies and sterilise themselves. Troonism is just another facet of the demographically targetted depopulation program.


maybe, just maybe,  middle to upper class white people from the angloesphere are just more likely to be delusional, entitled fags and just so happens that bubble is more likely to tolerate the already pulsating proclivities from posh white people rather than enforcing it on them.


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## Thumb Butler (Feb 14, 2021)

Here's a typical "body positive" troon. All smiles. Is totally not going to join the 41% club any day now.


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## ⋖ cørdion ⋗ (Feb 17, 2021)

"Am I unattractive? No, it is the world that is wrong. I wasn't given the tits I should've, so that is why my life now retrospectively makes sense as being abysmal!" is usually the go-to.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Feb 17, 2021)

I was also an awkward middle schooler who didn’t want to perform femininity and thought I was non binary for a bit and then I found some truly awful radfem blogs and grew out of it (for the record I later grew out of the truly awful radfem phase too).

The socially liberal parents thing comes into play because your mom is probably not forcing femininity onto you. I hear about other women saying their mothers forced them to wear makeup or tweeze their eyebrows or whatever, and I can’t relate at all. So if you’re a awkward teenage girl you look at the other girls who are suddenly super feminine and you think they all love being girly and you don’t realize that it’s not a choice for all of them. 

And a general idea that woman = hyperfemme.


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## Zebedee (Feb 17, 2021)

Moloko said:


> The majority of troons are White. It is predominantly White children who are being encouraged to mutilate their bodies and sterilise themselves. Troonism is just another facet of the demographically targetted depopulation program.


Several years ago I came across the idea/concept of a ‘social disease’, and at the time I thought it was just right wing bullshit.

Now that I’m older and a bit more cynical, I’ve come to realise that they may be onto something after all.


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## demidumbass (Feb 18, 2021)

a (trans) friend of mine once said that he'd rather be an ugly man over the hottest woman in the world. he has legitimate gender dysphoria (the thing that makes you trans, except not according to schizos on twitter), which is something many of these teens seem to lack. so does body positivity contribute to people who are actually trans? no. but does body positivity encourage transtrenders and teen girls who would otherwise just hate themselves for being ugly/having body dysmorphia? yes.

the issue of young MTFs who end up thinking they're trans from projecting onto anime girls too much is another issue entirely, but that would probably be the closest equivalent of this for them.


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## Punished “Venom” pH (Feb 21, 2021)

No.


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## A Thick Piece of Meat (Feb 21, 2021)

i like to be positive about bodies we all need positivity in our lives


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## Mococoa (Feb 22, 2021)

Someone made a comment on the Jazz Jennings thread that I thought would fit well here:



FrankyKismyFP said:


> The thought Jazz is binge eating in part as a way to exert control over one's life makes sense... Jazz's weight might be the only way to rebel against a mother who doesn't want a "fat daughter".
> 
> The only reason the public can't identify the underlying conflict is that it seems totally "acceptable" among the trans community to be enormously fat. It's as if fatness is the major "body acceptance" campaign they keep pushing. This body acceptance is starting to leak into the medical community, where healthcare employees are being taught that one has to tip-toe around the topic of obesity with patients. This is while COVID mortalities are through the roof for fat people... but whatever.. I attribute this directly to the enormous power the trans lobby has on medicine at the moment (even if it's not obvious, it's there... hospitals everywhere are being trained in LGBTQ+ acceptance)... they WANT obesity to be regarded as "normal" because obesity seems to be a major side effect of trooning out. They don't want morbid obesity to be seen as "something society rejects/something that is dangerous" as it will prevent transitioning from becoming a popular lifestyle choice.
> 
> ...



https://kiwifarms.net/threads/jaron-seth-bloshinsky-jazz-jennings-i-am-jazz.52472/post-8384765

I thought the point about how trooning out leading to side effects such as obesity was interesting. It would explain the overlap between TRA and HAES. 

Also many troons seem to have eating disorders as well, although I’m not sure of the type. I assumed it was more bulimia/anorexia to make oneself appear androgynous, however I suppose that kind of look could be achieved by piling on the weight.


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## Gregor Samsa (Feb 22, 2021)

Not being able to criticise people based on their lifestyle choices ( being fat, having a personal flaw you can easily fix like hairstyle or facial hair ect) can definetly lead to some people going down a downward spiral of delusional self image and gender issues. This is especialy true during childhood when  without listeting to positive criticism and learing to better themselves, kids latch on to the teachings of these faceless internet influencers telling them they are just great the way they are, they shouldnt listen to their parents because they are cis-conservative scum of the earth. Also teens want to be different than the rest so they fixate themselves on these labels like pan demi sexuals or whatever. Discipline and positive criticism goes a long way to fostering self love and encourages young adults to better themselves both physicaly and mentaly. All this virtue signaling and online coddling is just dangerous to a young persons mind.


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## Horton Hears A Whoreson (Feb 22, 2021)

The encouragement of troonism, so feverously advocated by today's social dregs, would only accelerate the erosion of a healthy society, until it's nothing more than a bunch of sterile squabbling narcissistic frankensteins stewing in their own internet fiefdoms to wage character assassinations among each other, before ultimately commiting instant kayan neck procedure.

(Most) People should accept the fact that they are neither perfect nor grotesque. Don't be ashamed of who you are but don't fucking flaunt around like you're hot shit. Work with what you're given at birth and make the most of what you're provided with by your environment.


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## Tsuka Hiira (Mar 7, 2021)

Sperghetti said:


> These got me thinking… do you guys think all the “love your body” and “don’t be ashamed” shit that gets pushed on teenagers and young women these days is actually making this worse?


personally I don't think so

here's a history lesson tho from what i've calculated so far on this whole surge of people

it's more to do with /r9k/'s trap aesthetic which led to those people trooning out because lol wanna be cute anime girl (initially kicking off in 2015)
then that crossed over with discord and reddit culture, ultimately ending up on tumblr (sometime 2017)
then discord became more mainstream and when tumblr users flocked to twitter after the porn ban on tumblr, they collided with discord users (late 2017 to late 2018 )
tiktok then found out about it and made it completely mainstream (early 2019)
*bam*

not often can we say 4chan truly did bad influence here but it did for once, probably unintentionally :/
also fix the smiley parser, it treats 2018 with a bracket after as 201


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## niqlo (Mar 7, 2021)

You'd think that if they were positive about their appearance or whatever then they wouldn't try and transition, right? I don't really think it's connected. They seem like completely opposite beliefs.


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## Carlos Weston Chantor (Mar 7, 2021)

Fat "people" are like half-troons anyway. All the disgusting shit they eat is full of xenoestrogenes, and their own adipose tissue aromatizes testosterone to estrogene, while inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT (highly androgenic form of testosterone responsible for secondary sex characteristics in men, including mental masculinity). The lifestyle and diet of fat "men" is a form of HRT


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## Pompeii Grammy Awards (Mar 24, 2021)

FrankyKismyFP said:


> Meh, I think it's the cultural normalization of porn, as in internet pornography.
> These men/kids are so obsessed with the objects of their obsession that they literally WANT to become "porn chicks". Note how so many tr00ns parody the kinds of traits one sees in women depicted in porn.
> Add also the flagrant propaganda campaigns social media platforms are pushing on children in particular-- grooming them into the idea that "transitioning is the key to happiness!"
> Girls who are exposed to this stuff often DON'T want to wind up being the women they see depicted in porn, so a portion of them decide "I don't want to be like those girls, so I must be trans!"


Imagine being a teenage girl browsing art only to stumble upon White Kitten's gallery and then growing up 10 years later only to see men in dresses tweeting about lesbians and girldick.


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## Chromeo (Mar 25, 2021)

I feel like the cultural inclination to only allow happy feelings, even in times of grief/discomfort, piles onto this. You can't be unhappy with changes, you can't grieve, you can't make others uncomfortable or lash out or have any ugly/hard-to-deal-with emotions. You have to love yourself and be blissfully thrilled out of your little pea brain all the time or something is Wrong and Needs To Be Fixed NOW!

But you can't always feel happy, and you shouldn't try to. It's not natural. This idea you should only ever feel happy leads people down all kinds of bad paths (bad relationship choices, bad habits, addictions,) it's no wonder it leads some kids to troon out.


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## admiral (Mar 25, 2021)

Body positivity is contributing to the trans trend largely because it's now verboten to point at a man with bitch tits and a gaping wound between his legs and say 'ew that's fucked up'', or to point out that most trans men look like they have the benjamin button disease and resemble scraggle bearded, wizened 13 year olds with saggy dog-ear chests and pot bellies. This notion of acceptance or else has roots in the LGBT movements of the 20th century, however back then it wasn't about 'accept my leather-chapped asshole in your face' and more 'let me do what I want in private and don't fire me for being gay'. 

You have to be _nice _about everyone's body now, which is a shame because one of the best ways of putting someone off doing some stupid shit  is to show them a horrifying picture of some poor disfigured bastard who already did it and say 'this is what will happen'. (Did anyone else at school get told by a teacher not to swing on their chair, because they'd once had a student who split their head open doing it?) Trans people who _aren't _relentlessly positive about the ~magical trans experience~ get slapped by the trans community for daring to imply that being trans isn't all sunshine and lollipops. You're literally not allowed to say that it's shitty and uncomfortable and difficult, or that you ever have doubts about what you did which is _absolutely ridiculous, _because people have regrets and doubts about everything they do, it's impossible to never wake up and think 'man, it sure would be better if I had paid more attention in school/had a better job/was single/was thinner'. That's normal, it's healthy. Never questioning your decisions or accepting criticism on your choices is unhealthy. 

Somewhere along the line body positivity shifted from 'you're fat and that's okay, here's how to stay healthy without falling into destructive behaviours' to 'your body is perfect and so is everyone else's, and if you dare to 'concern troll' or try to change yourself then you're a hater and an asshole and a sheep'. It's the same with trans: in the past there was definitely a message of 'think very hard about transitioning, because there's a good chance that you won't pass and that will just make you more unhappy', but now you can barely put any effort into transition at all and the impetus is no longer on you to sort your shit out and work to pass, but on the world around you to change in order to accomodate you. Body positivity has essentially shifted from 'I love myself' to 'You must love me'.

 Just look at pride parades and gay media- it's all so obnoxious and in your face, 'if you don't like it, you're a bigot!' but so many people _don't _like it, and they'll like it even less if you call them names for not wanting to see your bare ass in a leather thong with nipple piercings and a dildo strapped to your forehead. Empathy goes both ways, and the body positivity movement which has always been at its core a little selfish (and that's fine- it's fine to care about yourself) is now wholly self absorbed. If someone disagrees with you or dislikes you, you don't have to speculate on why or think about how your actions are making them feel, you can just dismiss them because they're not being positive. 

I think this is part of a shift from a pro-society culture to a pro-individual one. In the past you were encouraged to be healthy and fit because it was good for society and you would be a strong worker and produce healthy babies. You are, after all, just one of many who live in your country, and you must all work for the common good. Body positivity in its original form accomodates this, because the focus was on health and happiness. Now, I believe, society is shiting to pro-individuality. There is no common good to work for, there is no country which we must all love and support and produce healthy babies for. Who cares if you're fat and have a gaping hole where your dick should be, it's not their problem. Ironically, you're relying on the good will of the public and the support of the state, but putting absolutely nothing back in except maybe taxes if you actually have a job (unlikely if you're fat and am-holed). 

There is no common good now. Look at gatherings of Antifa or Alt-Right dudes or BLM- full of fatasses and trannies and dumbasses and degenerates who heft a painted baseball bat that they can't swing or a ridiculous gun that they have never used to shoot anything bigger than coke cans. There's no responsibility to stay healthy for the good of the movement, because according to the new church of Body Positivity you don't owe your body or your health to anything. There's no accountability, no responsibility, the body has become a temple to the ego.


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## Bad Gateway (Mar 25, 2021)

Yes. Because it has blown the door off the hinges for women to feel like they MUST accept anyone who claims to be female. There's zero distance between "health at any size" and "trans women are women". Both are false, both are unsupported by medical fact, both are lies.


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## Instant_Pot_User (Mar 26, 2021)

I just want to grill, for God’s sake!


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## NoReturn (Apr 3, 2021)

Out of curiosity I looked for TikToks and accounts on TikTok that had "body positive" and "trans" in their tags and/or profile and here's what I found:




Your browser is not able to display this video.





Spoiler: More in here







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Your browser is not able to display this video.







Your browser is not able to display this video.







Your browser is not able to display this video.







Your browser is not able to display this video.







Your browser is not able to display this video.







Your browser is not able to display this video.







Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Haramburger (Apr 7, 2021)

I don't think body positivity contributes to transtrending. In fact they both fit under the same Social Justice/Progressive umbrella of ideas, despite being completely at odds with one another. Which isn't unusual, considering they're flying in the face of established treatment of eating disorders for example. I've seen someone else mention "we don't tell anorexics to take diet pills to achieve their ideal body so why would we for trans?" and basically all the Social Justice/Progressive ideas are not in harmony with one another. Which is also not a problem for these people when they simply refuse to acknowledge ideas or problems that aren't theirs or handwave away things that disrupt their worldviews. Right now trannies are popular and one of the prevailing ideas, so it generally wins these arguments if two opposite ideas clash in a discussion. "Body positivity isn't the same as born in the wrong body" is probably all you'd get as a response, if any.

Frankly leftist progressives are just throwing any thing and everything at the wall to see what sticks, and they'll maybe sort out the logic of which ideas take priority/overrule others later(and later never comes). Trannies rule right now, fatties are kind of on their own but hanging in there and fighting for wall space. It would be time better spent walking than typing on the internet about how fat is beautiful.


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## Frencel (Apr 7, 2021)

A body-positive troon is an oxymoron considering the fact that they want major body alterations and commit hormone genocide. The only way I see the message being spread by troons is if it's weaponized to deflect criticisms and standards of "passing".


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## Eggwhore (Apr 7, 2021)

The modern day trans movement is an ingenious way for incels to work their way into the woke crowd where they get to have straight white male UMC privilege while still remaining a victim and getting asspats and social credit while partaking in their fetishes. They don’t actually care about other sjw agendas like body pos and would probably loathe the idea of being connected to a movement of unattractive cis women.


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## Saul Goodman Fan (Apr 22, 2021)

Mococoa said:


> I do believe that there are an alarming amount of girls and women identifying as trans and non binary. I wish I could google the resources for you but when I do it just comes up with shit like “are you trans?! questioning you gender identity? how to respect non binary folx” so I can’t provide evidence. Perhaps I’ll edit and come back.
> 
> But female puberty does suck. I’m a young adult today and I often feel sorry for the younger girls going through puberty today. Is it really any surprise that they want to opt out of womanhood when to be a woman in today’s view is heavily commodified? We have plastic barbie-looking freaks who are overly displayed in pornography, photoshopped ‘models’ plastered all over social media, and everything else about women seems to be up for rent. Poor? Why not become a surrogate? Or a sex worker? It’s emPoWeRiNG as a true and honest woman to do degrading and traumatic things. So it’s no wonder more and more girls and women are choosing not to be women any more. I think they troon out not necessarily because they want to be a man, but because they don’t want to be objectified. I do know that a lot of non binary women will hack off their breasts, and will often have eating disorders to have a more ambiguous looking figure.


While I definitely agree with you that the objectification of women being at an all-time high in the era of internet porn and photoshopped models plays a big part in women trooning out, I’d argue the biggest factor is loneliness.

I think there are a lot of women who become trans to get away from sexualization, but I can still think of a lot of TiFs who sexualize themselves in an attempt to be more well liked. What I think _is _common with the majority of them, however, is the fact that most of them probably didn’t date in high school. Now, of course, this isn’t really a bad thing, but because of how much society pushes women into relationships, they feel ashamed that they haven’t had a love life yet. So they troon out as a way to gravitate towards gay men who otherwise would have no time for them.

I probably sound like a crazy person here but I do think the influx of gay relationships in media today plays a big part in women thinking they’d have a more successful love life if they became men, which leads to trooning out.


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## smegma enthusiast (Apr 24, 2021)

Body positivity has really been helped by creeps and fetishists who don't have anything better to do with their lives than fantasize about a giant dickgirl crushing them. NAAFP, the "National Association for the Advancement of Fat People", is massively populated with "fat admirers" and the like who just want some of that lady gunt. The toxic positivity culture has also made us unable to critcize anybody. Everyone's equally attractive, okay?


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## GigaKike (Apr 25, 2021)

Yes.


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## Crybaby Xianghua (Apr 25, 2021)

What BoPo people don't know, is that conventionally unattractive women can be sexualized, objectified and fetishized too. It's not just a hot babe thing. In fact, I have been seeing a lot of ads for ugly lady porn and freakshow fetish sites.

In fact, I wonder if unattractive women are more easy to manipulate, groom and exploit, due to them having low self esteems and loneliness? 

If it exists, there will be a kink for for it. Sadly enough. No exceptions.


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## Snoodle (Apr 25, 2021)

I'm think these ideologies are highly intertwined with a larger movement to keep the masses confused. Along side we get a helping of hypocrisy where we can't "deny science". But must accept these ideas as fact even though we've had contrary information we stood by for years. 

The basic science of genetics states xx, xy, rarely a different combination, sometimes a mutation. Gender dysphoria as listed in the dsm5 doesnt apply to the mass influx of people choosing their gender. The science of health has stated for years that being over or underweight is a health issue, not an external appearance issue. But body possitivity or choosing your gender suddenly stand outside of science. If you speak against it, your wrong or hateful, therefore perpetuating the trend because of social pressure.


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## ProtonMailMan (Apr 25, 2021)

Crybaby Xianghua said:


> What BoPo people don't know, is that conventionally unattractive women can be sexualized, objectified and fetishized too. It's not just a hot babe thing. In fact, I have been seeing a lot of ads for ugly lady porn and freakshow fetish sites.
> 
> In fact, I wonder if unattractive women are more easy to manipulate, groom and exploit, due to them having low self esteems and loneliness?
> 
> If it exists, there will be a kink for for it. Sadly enough. No exceptions.


Indeed there is no  thing or act  so repulsive that there isn't a large number of people  (in the absolute sense)  who can only have an orgasm while using/doing it.


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## Shrugcarpet (Apr 28, 2021)

I know far too many autistic people who say they are non-binary or trans. What specialist therapy is there about for autistic people with gender issues? Those who are autistic see and feel things different than those who are not on the spectrum and get obsessed more easily with certain topics. Of course they will end up in a rabbit hole and believe that they could be trans because someone on Twitter or Tumblr said so.


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## Guymera (Apr 28, 2021)

Shrugcarpet said:


> I know far too many autistic people who say they are non-binary or trans. What specialist therapy is there about for autistic people with gender issues? Those who are autistic see and feel things different than those who are not on the spectrum and get obsessed more easily with certain topics. Of course they will end up in a rabbit hole and believe that they could be trans because someone on Twitter or Tumblr said so.


You don't have to be autistic to think that you experience things differently than others and that there's some group of "people just like you" out there that you either haven't found or haven't tried enough to fit into yet.


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## Miss Tommie Jayne Wasserberg (Apr 29, 2021)

Guymera said:


> You don't have to be autistic to think that you experience things differently than others and that there's some group of "people just like you" out there that you either haven't found or haven't tried enough to fit into yet.





Shrugcarpet said:


> I know far too many autistic people who say they are non-binary or trans. What specialist therapy is there about for autistic people with gender issues? Those who are autistic see and feel things different than those who are not on the spectrum and get obsessed more easily with certain topics. Of course they will end up in a rabbit hole and believe that they could be trans because someone on Twitter or Tumblr said so.





Snoodle said:


> I'm think these ideologies are highly intertwined with a larger movement to keep the masses confused. Along side we get a helping of hypocrisy where we can't "deny science". But must accept these ideas as fact even though we've had contrary information we stood by for years.
> 
> The basic science of genetics states xx, xy, rarely a different combination, sometimes a mutation. Gender dysphoria as listed in the dsm5 doesnt apply to the mass influx of people choosing their gender. The science of health has stated for years that being over or underweight is a health issue, not an external appearance issue. But body possitivity or choosing your gender suddenly stand outside of science. If you speak against it, your wrong or hateful, therefore perpetuating the trend because of social pressure.
> 
> ...


https://www.ama-assn.org/press-cent...-interfering-health-care-transgender-children 

People are born with their gender identity and it needs to be understood that it is not dependent on the sex of the genitals, but the structure of the brain. .   How one  builds their gender expression is a cultural thing  and that has gotten very confusing in the past twenty years.  There only four basic genders; agender, bigender, cisgender and transgender. All these others are expressions that are a combination of identity and orientation.   Geneticists have described 6 karyotypes; X, XX, XY, XXY, XYY and XXXY.  

Dr. Anne Fausto Sterling describes five sexes as male, merm, herm, ferm and female .









						Baltimore Sun: Baltimore breaking news, sports, business, entertainment, weather and traffic
					

Baltimore Sun: Your source for Baltimore breaking news, sports, business, entertainment, weather and traffic




					www.baltimoresun.com
				






			https://crl.ucsd.edu/~elman/Courses/HDP1/2000/LectureNotes/fausto-sterling.pdf
		




https://www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/


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## Queen Of The Harpies (Apr 29, 2021)

Miss Tommie Jayne Wasserberg said:


> https://www.ama-assn.org/press-cent...-interfering-health-care-transgender-children
> 
> People are born with their gender identity and it needs to be understood that it is not dependent on the sex of the genitals, but the structure of the brain. .   How one  builds their gender expression is a cultural thing  and that has gotten very confusing in the past twenty years.  There only four basic genders; agender, bigender, cisgender and transgender. All these others are expressions that are a combination of identity and orientation.   Geneticists have described 6 karyotypes; X, XX, XY, XXY, XYY and XXXY.
> 
> ...


Fuck off Tommy. No one wants to talk to you.


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## Snoodle (Apr 29, 2021)

Miss Tommie Jayne Wasserberg said:


> https://www.ama-assn.org/press-cent...-interfering-health-care-transgender-children
> 
> People are born with their gender identity and it needs to be understood that it is not dependent on the sex of the genitals, but the structure of the brain. .   How one  builds their gender expression is a cultural thing  and that has gotten very confusing in the past twenty years.  There only four basic genders; agender, bigender, cisgender and transgender. All these others are expressions that are a combination of identity and orientation.   Geneticists have described 6 karyotypes; X, XX, XY, XXY, XYY and XXXY.
> 
> ...


Gender identity has multiple developmental theories and the most prominent one is a combination of nature and nurture, meaning influences in the environment play a huge factor. There are also three stages in which gender identity goes through before a child determines the identity, which primarily does fall Male or female. What you are saying is not what is being taught by academia.  What you are stating is information from geneticists is incomplete.  XX, XY, sometimes a mutation or a deletion. That's called a genetic disorder, not identity. No one disputes that neurological conditions that creates gender dysphoria exists. You are trying to tie your own compilation of ideas that are based on neither science, human development or psychology together with incomplete information and articles from poor sources. The cultural influence you state is part of nurture. There's countless evidence based studies that show gender identity typically falls within norms, meaning anything outside if it is abnormal. Unfortunately  while genetics does acknowledge variations of the human genome those variations fall out of the norm. Still the genetic component is not how gender identity is formed. However, if you want support for your statement on genetic, the second phase of gender identity for children around age 4 is differentiating gender by means of genitalia, the normative being male/female.


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## Salubrious (Apr 29, 2021)

TL;DR - It's easier to scream at other people to "accept" you as you are then it is to make meaningful changes to yourself as a person.


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## Jonah Hill poster (Apr 29, 2021)

“Body positivity” is not a thing when you realize that alcohol and drug dependency does not care for inaccurate, or unrealistic, BMI.


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## Miss Tommie Jayne Wasserberg (Apr 29, 2021)

Snoodle said:


> Gender identity has multiple developmental theories and the most prominent one is a combination of nature and nurture, meaning influences in the environment play a huge factor. There are also three stages in which gender identity goes through before a child determines the identity, which primarily does fall Male or female. What you are saying is not what is being taught by academia.  What you are stating is information from geneticists is incomplete.  XX, XY, sometimes a mutation or a deletion. That's called a genetic disorder, not identity. No one disputes that neurological conditions that creates gender dysphoria exists. You are trying to tie your own compilation of ideas that are based on neither science, human development or psychology together with incomplete information and articles from poor sources. The cultural influence you state is part of nurture. There's countless evidence based studies that show gender identity typically falls within norms, meaning anything outside if it is abnormal. Unfortunately  while genetics does acknowledge variations of the human genome those variations fall out of the norm. Still the genetic component is not how gender identity is formed. However, if you want support for your statement on genetic, the second phase of gender identity for children around age 4 is differentiating gender by means of genitalia, the normative being male/female.


lol.  That's a lot of word salad full of opinions and unsupported statements of fact along with some sly ad hominem slurs tossed in.  There is nothing "abnormal"  about gender identities outside of "norms" .  You were on the right track when you said "typically"    cishet is the "typical"  identity and orientation for the majority of live births.   Others are perfectly natural "atypical" people.  To say otherwise is just screaming that you're a male supremacist and probably a self loathing queer in denial. 

In nature as I understand it, there are six basic karyotypes  for sex and four basic gender identities.  Everything else about sexuality and gender are cultural constructs.


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## ToroidalBoat (May 1, 2021)

peetz cum sock said:


> No wonder people feel disconnected from their bodies when they live in the social media simulacrum.



So in other words, real life getting "cancelled" by excessive tech - and now the "New Normal" - is egging on the "body positivity" and "transgender" movements?


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## Schatzi Katze (May 5, 2021)

body positivity should boil down to appreciating and taking care of your meat suit because its the only one you gonna get. the trans movement in inherently anti-body positivity due to their need to physically alter themselves to be happy.


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## Jan Ciągwa (May 20, 2021)

If you gave aspiring MtFs a choice between looking like a bodybuilder vs. like a drag queen, how many would choose the first despite talking beforehand about being a woman in a man's body?


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## Nonconsentual Pronouns (May 20, 2021)

Sperghetti said:


> it just felt extremely uncomfortable and almost borderline violating


Every kid getting cornered into that shit should have their Stranger Danger senses screaming at them. Yaniv isn't the first predator to use children's puberty as an excuse to advance on them; it's common. Shit, some Jehova's Witnesses going door-to-door tried that on me when I was an early-teenaged girl. Two crusty black men, middle of a (EDIT to specify it was summer) weekday afternoon, could tell very fucking quickly I was home alone and wasted no time pointing out that my body was changing a lot at my age and that they could "help" me to understand what's happening and won't I let them in the house for a little while to talk? Slammed the door, called the cops, called my dad, end of story. How many stories of young boys getting preyed on by men they knew involve the adults using 'puberty guidance' to groom them? Most of them, I think.

As for your thread's actual inquiry, my mind goes straight towards BoPo giving fat, lazy, hairy, ugly, etc men the excuse that if they troon out, anyone who doesn't call them a pretty little girl-slut isn't adhering to body positivity. After all, advising even an actual woman that maybe she could stand to wax her upper lip, pluck her eyebrows, lose some weight, shave her legs, take care of her skin/hair or dress appropriately for her bodytype and surroundings isn't BoPo and is therefor verboten. This taboo gives troons an insane amount of free reign. It also doesn't help that being obese causes the human body to appear far more gender-ambiguous as the forms of the skeletal and muscular frames get further obscured.

Apologies if I've posted any redundancies; I'm still groggy and am about to read the thread.


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## Slap47 (Jul 10, 2021)

Schatzi Katze said:


> body positivity should boil down to appreciating and taking care of your meat suit because its the only one you gonna get. the trans movement in inherently anti-body positivity due to their need to physically alter themselves to be happy.


Nobody believes that's what body positivity is about. 

It's about accepting being unhealthy, unless you have gender dysphoria or believe you do.


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## Everybody (Jul 10, 2021)

Are we talking actual transitioning or are we talking about the trend where there's a plethora of new genders and gender fluidity?
I have tried my best to understand what it all means but nobody can explain gender fluidity in a way that seems reasonable to me (other than having autism can affect the way you view yourself).
It seems to be more about "gender expression" to people, as if they never heard about feminine boys and masculine women before. Instead of looking at it as a trait they see it as gender defining that they don't want to conform to traditional gender roles.
All I see are confused teens who like to experiment with style and since it has become more accepted to be trans some seems to have taken it to mean that being in a visually perpetual state of transition is, in an of itself, a gender.

Besides that I think it doesn't help that some people live out their social lives in small groups online where everyone has a weird gender and trauma and some diagnosis.
In their world these traits and flaws are likened to social capital where you are seen as someone who should be respected and listened to, lest you'll be seen as a bad person for not "respecting minorities".
I'm only talking about extreme cases here, they may have a big following base on twitter or tumblr which makes them think they achieved something but they wouldn't stand a chance out in the real world.


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## Nonconsentual Pronouns (Jul 10, 2021)

I'm Helping said:


> I have tried my best to understand what it all means but nobody can explain gender fluidity in a way that seems reasonable to me (other than having autism can affect the way you view yourself).


It's not reasonable to anyone who is reasonable themselves, so don't worry. The fact that it doesn't make sense to you the way it supposedly does to them just means that there's a still brain in your head yet. 



I'm Helping said:


> In their world these traits and flaws are likened to social capital where you are seen as someone who should be respected and listened to, lest you'll be seen as a bad person for not "respecting minorities".


Or respecting fat people, which circles back around to obesity being grouped in with troonery, melanin, other mental illnesses, queerness, etc. One of the aspects of bopo contributing to troonery (and vice-versa) is the simple fact that the left has shoved both of these things into the Oppression Pyramid, regardless of how many levels separate their statuses.


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## Everybody (Jul 10, 2021)

Nonconsentual Pronouns said:


> It's not reasonable to anyone who is reasonable themselves, so don't worry. The fact that it doesn't make sense to you the way it supposedly does to them just means that there's a still brain in your head yet.
> 
> 
> Or respecting fat people, which circles back around to obesity being grouped in with troonery, melanin, other mental illnesses, queerness, etc. One of the aspects of bopo contributing to troonery (and vice-versa) is the simple fact that the left has shoved both of these things into the Oppression Pyramid, regardless of how many levels separate their statuses.


Well.. I do understand that emotions aren't always logical and that there probably are some aspects of it that offers a refuge of some kind to these people. I'm just not sure I agree with the reasons for going there even though I admit I don't know what's going on inside them.


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## Retired Junta Member (Jul 10, 2021)

While the two groups often overlap, I think both are mere consequences of the same cultural change. BP didn’t cause the trans trend because they’re parallel phenomena.


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## ⋖ cørdion ⋗ (Jul 11, 2021)

The few trannies I've actually spoken to and somewhat understood, it's literally just "I wish I wasn't (this)". Whether they find someone to want to be through porn or models or art or whatever, it's literally just that stunted teenage mindset of "I wish I wasn't this". I've seen transitioning as a second puberty several times now, and if that's the case, that's exactly when they should work the hardest.

Boys learn to be interesting, fashion, style their hair. Girls learn to use make-up and get off on vibrating Harry Potter broom toys. Except trannies don't, cause they're busy in their coom cave busting a nut to porn for the 5th time. You can tell immediately if someone is gonna pass based on how they look beforehand. Sense of fashion? Female who already know the ins and outs of make-up and clothing? Perfect. Ugly ass troglodyte? Enjoy the noose.


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## Neo-Liberal Bugman (Jul 11, 2021)

Cactus Wings said:


> The few trannies I've actually spoken to and somewhat understood, it's literally just "I wish I wasn't (this)". Whether they find someone to want to be through porn or models or art or whatever, it's literally just that stunted teenage mindset of "I wish I wasn't this". I've seen transitioning as a second puberty several times now, and if that's the case, that's exactly when they should work the hardest.
> 
> Boys learn to be interesting, fashion, style their hair. Girls learn to use make-up and get off on vibrating Harry Potter broom toys. Except trannies don't, cause they're busy in their coom cave busting a nut to porn for the 5th time. You can tell immediately if someone is gonna pass based on how they look beforehand. Sense of fashion? Female who already know the ins and outs of make-up and clothing? Perfect. Ugly ass troglodyte? Enjoy the noose.


Do you think women transition into men better than men transition into women?


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## Meiwaku (Jul 11, 2021)

It's contributing to thinking low effort troons are "butch" or that you can cope with being weird and ugly by being they/them


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## Nonconsentual Pronouns (Jul 11, 2021)

Neo-Liberal Bugman said:


> Do you think women transition into men better than men transition into women?


TIMs hate the absolute shit out of TIFs because it's easier for a TIF to "pass". The only time a TIM doesn't openly hate a TIF is because he's fucking her, usually before she's started HRT.

Adding E to a man just results in a man with weird cone-sock moobs and a worsening receding hairline. Anything that actually helps a man "pass" for a woman is lots of plastic surgery, lots of expertly applied makeup, expertly chosen clothing, etc, and the best case scenario outcome looks like an alien trying to look like a human woman. 

Adding T to a woman causes facial hair, body hair, easily accumulated muscle mass, redistributed fat stores and more. All a TIF needs to do after that is get her tits removed, after which at worst (as far as passing goes) she'll just look like a twink femboi uwu.


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## Nigger Respecter (Jul 21, 2021)

I'm Helping said:


> It seems to be more about "gender expression" to people, as if they never heard about feminine boys and masculine women before. Instead of looking at it as a trait they see it as gender defining that they don't want to conform to traditional gender roles.


It helps that being trans is considered some sort of political statement now. 10 years ago these people would have been totally fine with just being a masculine woman/feminine man but now there is no power in that, so they're trans


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## artilleryfroth (Jul 21, 2021)

tofu6709 said:


> It helps that being trans is considered some sort of political statement now. 10 years ago these people would have been totally fine with just being a masculine woman/feminine man but now there is no power in that, so they're trans



Completely agree. Also, women hate bras.


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## Slap47 (Jul 22, 2021)

tofu6709 said:


> It helps that being trans is considered some sort of political statement now. 10 years ago these people would have been totally fine with just being a masculine woman/feminine man but now there is no power in that, so they're trans


They also get something out of it now. God bless the progressive stack.


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## Blue Miaplacidus (Jul 22, 2021)

I don't get the puberty thing. Maybe it's different for women, for me I just got boners at inappropriate times, my voice cracked, and grew a foot taller over a summer.

The troon boom is definitely connected to everyone being on the internet 24/7


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## bot_for_hire (Jul 31, 2021)

You can't be 'body positive' if you hate your body and want to turn into someone else.


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## BrettyBoy (Aug 4, 2021)

‘Body positivity‘ is only for women. No one gives a toss about men.


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## Nonconsentual Pronouns (Aug 4, 2021)

BrettyBoy said:


> ‘Body positivity‘ is only for women. No one gives a toss about men.


To be completely fair, women are the ones who get judged for their appearance very harshly at every turn by pretty much everyone; by both men and other women. First fucking comment you hear out of a dudes' mouth about a woman is how fuckable they think she is. Chicks will start to nitpick her clothes, hair and skin eventually, or even start off with that if they're looking for a reason to critique said woman for any reason. Even politicians can't be judged solely on their character and competence if they're wammynz. That old fuck dude can yammer on for an hour without anyone pointing out how much he looks like a melted jew with fake eyelashes, but an average-looking 50 year old woman is immediately going to get comments about how saggy her tits probably are. That shit is inescapable while working as a fucking medical professional, for God's sake. 

Men only get appraised for sexual value when they put effort into putting themselves into that position, with few exceptions IME. One of which exceptions of course, is when it's gay men who are doing the looking, then all bets are off with those perverts. Outside of Hollywood and contests of appearance, men generally only get appraised for their sexual attraction when they're a) trying to attract a mate, and b) when they're seen with a mate who's not even close to being on the same level of the scale as him, making people go "WTF?". 

Just the way it is, so I really do get it. Double standards are only excusable when there's an objective and significant difference to justify it, and that's what's going on with BoPo. I absolutely loathe the unshaven, unwashed, obese, dangerhair BoPo of the current age, but I get why it's still targeted towards women. The only people I've really heard unironically complaining about it from the M/F angle are exclusively incels, both online and IRL. Holy shit, the amount of BoPo bitching I've heard from incels IRL... Hmmmm, really makes you think.


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## Snack Cracker (Aug 4, 2021)

The running theme of body positivity is that “all bodies are good bodies” so that right there explodes things into all sorts of deviations.

Body positivity to them means that no one can think someone is gross or mentally ill ever or it’s some kind of oppression. 

Naturally it’s going to attract people who want to troon out because then they can both be repulsive and fat and it’s sooo BRAVE and STUNNING and don’t misgender or call them fat or you literally want to murder troons or death fats.

They want to redefine how society at large sees them, and there definitely seems to be an overlap between body positivity and trooning out. 

And the body positivity community and the trans community both screech about representation- how dare someone center a double amputee survivor of a car crash that was able to finish college and become a scientist because she’s the dreaded White Thin and Cis?


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## BrettyBoy (Aug 4, 2021)

Nonconsentual Pronouns said:


> To be completely fair, women are the ones who get judged for their appearance very harshly at every turn by pretty much everyone; by both men and other women. First fucking comment you hear out of a dudes' mouth about a woman is how fuckable they think she is. Chicks will start to nitpick her clothes, hair and skin eventually, or even start off with that if they're looking for a reason to critique said woman for any reason. Even politicians can't be judged solely on their character and competence if they're wammynz. That old fuck dude can yammer on for an hour without anyone pointing out how much he looks like a melted jew with fake eyelashes, but an average-looking 50 year old woman is immediately going to get comments about how saggy her tits probably are. That shit is inescapable while working as a fucking medical professional, for God's sake.
> 
> Men only get appraised for sexual value when they put effort into putting themselves into that position, with few exceptions IME. One of which exceptions of course, is when it's gay men who are doing the looking, then all bets are off with those perverts. Outside of Hollywood and contests of appearance, men generally only get appraised for their sexual attraction when they're a) trying to attract a mate, and b) when they're seen with a mate who's not even close to being on the same level of the scale as him, making people go "WTF?".
> 
> Just the way it is, so I really do get it. Double standards are only excusable when there's an objective and significant difference to justify it, and that's what's going on with BoPo. I absolutely loathe the unshaven, unwashed, obese, dangerhair BoPo of the current age, but I get why it's still targeted towards women. The only people I've really heard unironically complaining about it from the M/F angle are exclusively incels, both online and IRL. Holy shit, the amount of BoPo bitching I've heard from incels IRL... Hmmmm, really makes you think.


Females have simps at their feet, regardless of how they look.


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## Nonconsentual Pronouns (Aug 4, 2021)

BrettyBoy said:


> Females have simps at their feet, regardless of how they look.


Sir, you're just ticking off more boxes on the list and serving as an example to my previous parting point.


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## Snack Cracker (Aug 4, 2021)

BrettyBoy said:


> Females have simps at their feet, regardless of how they look.


No one cares about who you simp or that you apparently have 0 standards when it comes to females.


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## BrettyBoy (Aug 4, 2021)

Visible Belly Outline said:


> No one cares about who you simp or that you apparently have 0 standards when it comes to females.


I don’t simp but I do know that women have simps, regardless of their looks and weight.


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## Snack Cracker (Aug 4, 2021)

BrettyBoy said:


> I don’t simp but I do know that women have simps, regardless of their looks and weight.



Have you ventured into literally any thread on here on here featuring a woman?

Go visit Kelly Lanza aka LividLipids in Deathfats and her latest thirst posts- she makes my phantom dick soft and I refuse to believe she has any actual simps.


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## Nonconsentual Pronouns (Aug 4, 2021)

Visible Belly Outline said:


> Have you ventured into literally any thread on here on here featuring a woman?
> 
> Go visit Kelly Lanza aka LividLipids in Deathfats and her latest thirst posts- she makes my phantom dick soft and I refuse to believe she has any actual simps.


You should know as well as I do what his type is like. They can't be reasoned with. All they know is that they're thirsty, "females" need to learn their place, we need to lower our standards so they don't have to improve themselves, all "females" are Stacies, blah blah blah. He's just being pissy and shitting up the thread so he can cry about how he's too repulsive to attract from even the bottom of the barrel. I tried to give a gentle hint as to how he was presenting himself and look where he chose to go from there. We should really just let it go.


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## Siphon Cypher (Aug 4, 2021)

100%. If it wasn't for the "You're perfect at every size" and "You can be what you want to be" crowd we wouldnt have these troonies everywhere. The only reason they think they can get away with it, is because in todays world, they absolutely can. You want to be called a thermodynamic cunt juggler, well you can and you're brave and beautiful for it. 

At this point... I want to get off Mr. Bones wild ride.


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## bot_for_hire (Sep 11, 2022)

Should go to Stink Ditch, @Null.


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## urr13 account (Sep 11, 2022)

Not making fun of fat people enough was the beginning of a slippery slope toward the tranny-world order for sure.


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## NoReturn (Sep 11, 2022)

Saw this last night and thought you guys might find it interesting.


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## La Salpêtrière (Nov 9, 2022)

If anything i think troonism is body negativity. And sorry if my tinfoil hat it's too tight, but i think troonism is so promoted right now as an response to bodyposi and body neutrality "nooo you can't exist in your body as it is you need at least 10+ dangerous surgical procedures to be The Real You™ pc is an human rights issue" is a discourse far too convenient for Big pharma and the PC lobby to be a coincidence


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## DrNow (Nov 9, 2022)

I’ve seen people who say looks matter most of all, people form immediate judgements on you based on how you look. There’s no way to put a positive spin on being a short balding dude with a small chin. All the ‘body positivity’ in the world won’t change how people see you. The fact ‘transmen’ choose this for themselves is just insane.

I think pretty privilege is a thing and there is a kernel of truth to what these ‘blackpill’ types say. Passing is immensely important among trans identifying people. People perceive Blaire White differently to Jessica Yaniv for instance, not just because of their behaviour but how they look. Even trans types use the term ‘Hon’ to describe men who are doomed to never be viewed as women. 

Body positivity is a mindset, but it has little  to no bearing on reality and ones lived experience.


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## Pillar of Autism (Nov 10, 2022)

I don't think "you should love your body just the way it is" is very compatible with "You won't be happy until you are shooting up estrogen like it's heroin and you chop your cock off"



A Non-Traceable Username said:


> If anything i think troonism is body negativity. And sorry if my tinfoil hat it's too tight, but i think troonism is so promoted right now as an response to bodyposi and body neutrality "nooo you can't exist in your body as it is you need at least 10+ dangerous surgical procedures to be The Real You™ pc is an human rights issue" is a discourse far too convenient for Big pharma and the PC lobby to be a coincidence



Fuck, I didn't even think of it like that, but it makes sense.


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## Salty Squid (Nov 11, 2022)

I don't think it contributed to there being more trannies overall, since, as others have said, trooning out falls more into body negativity. Many people that transition nowadays seem to do it because they hate themselves or their body and hope that the issues they have with themselves will magically go away if they just feed enough into the delusion that they can become the other sex and thus something totally different and amazing and they will never hate themselves again ever if they become the big titty bimbo slut/hot yaoi bishounen they always jerked off to were truly at heart since birth.

I do however think it contributed to there being more and more trannies that don't even try to pass. Why put any effort into shaving your lumberjack neckbeard and tucking your unwashed hairy dick away when you can just put "she/her transfem lesbian uwu" into your twitter bio and be considered just as stunning and brave?


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