# What if Christianity hadn't risen to prominence?



## AnotherForumUser (Jul 15, 2015)

How different would Western civilization look today?


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## AnOminous (Jul 15, 2015)

Something equally dumb would be currently taking up the same space, and would probably have done about the same things.


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## AnotherForumUser (Jul 15, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Something equally dumb would be currently taking up the same space, and would probably have done about the same things.


I can imagine polytheistic versions of the types of social conservatives we have today. Screaming about how America is a Olympian nation and how we need prayer to Apollo in schools.


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## Mollybdenum (Jul 15, 2015)

The world would be a much bleaker place.

Christianity came about at the right place and the right time.  The final war of the Roman Republic had just ended and it would be about 200 years of peace before the Crisis of the Third Century shook things up again.  During this time, ideas and thoughts could expand rather freely through the Mediterranean.  The Roman and Greek religious ideals (it was mostly paganism crap anyway) just weren't cutting it anymore with how educated the peoples were becoming and the imperial court was such a shit show that people were dying for something that made sense morally.

What it was though, was "modern".  It was sophisticated and rather than being something about ethnicity (something Judaism failed in) it only really revolved around, God is univeral, God is good and God wants to reward you with eternal paradise.  It offered a nice, comforting thought for people, salvation.  Pretty much every religion before had some form of afterlife, such as Hades, but those were dumping grounds where everyone who died continued their "existence" in some horrible pit of despair, and nothingness.  It offered people a sense of worth in the world, to an extent they had control over their lives, or rather, afterlives.  Things made sense, there were answers, not everything you did was for naught.

Take note however, Christianity is a western religion.  Many eastern religions which came to prominence around the same time (and plagiarized many of the same things from the ancient pagan ones) offer the same solutions to life.  That's why Buddhism is still around, the same world view, moral codes and ideas of a comforting or rejuvenating afterlife.

If it wasn't Christianity, it'd be something similar, just not under Christ.  Religion is needed for... simpler people... who can't accept the fact that life ends and that the universe is in itself greater than our understanding if not unfathomable without our lifetime.


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## ZehnBoat (Jul 16, 2015)

i would think without christianity:
whatever the romans had wouldn't have spread as easily (old christianity was easy to get into, for some people it was just frosting on the cake.. that slowly ate the cake)
also spain would have been vastly different.. if i know my history, and i don't, spain had more islam in it than any of it's neighbors (you see it in the language)
i'm trying to picture english as it would look in this world (assuming it exists). would there be more latin in english? less?
without Christianity we would lose a ton of phrases we use ... mostly from the king james bible (fly in ointment, leopard changing spots, bird in the hand worth two in the bush, bottomless pit, all things must pass, god forbid, how the might have fallen, let there be light, milk and honey, love thy neighbor, turned the world upsidedown, etc.)


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## c-no (Jul 16, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Something equally dumb would be currently taking up the same space, and would probably have done about the same things.


Yeah, there would be something that would take up the place of Christianity. It would no doubt have some people fighting in war over a plot of holy land in another country. IIRC, I did remember hearing about Zoroastrianism or the religion that had Mitra being popular among some Romans before Christianity became popular enough that it eventually became the only legal religion in Rome.


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## Johnny Bravo (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm not a history buff, but here are a few thoughts and questions that come to mind:

- What would happen to the Jews? They were basically under Roman rule at this point. I'm not sure how much the development of Christianity helped or hindered their situation.
- Unless I'm mistaken I believe Buddhism was also spreading to the west at this time. Without Christianity to compete with perhaps it would have become the majority religion of the west.
- The Inquisitions probably wouldn't have happened or would have been ordinary wars.
- The Vatican would not be a country.
- Manifest Destiny would not be a driving force behind American Expansion.
- The Dark Ages may have been less dark in the west.
- A lot of books wouldn't have been burned.
- Joan of Arc would just be a crazy person.
- The Salem Witch Trials wouldn't have happened.
- There would be no Mormons.
- Circumcision would not be wide spread in the west.
- The Nazis could not use Catholicism to justify the extermination of the Jews.
- C. S. Lewis wouldn't have written about Narnia.
- The Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, Ben-Hur and many other classic films would not exist.
- Additionally, Dante's Inferno, Paradise Lost and many other classic works of literature would not exist.
- You could always buy beer on Sundays.
- But you might not get Sundays off.
- Christmas, Easter and Halloween would still exist in some fashion, but might not be as wide spread.
- Christian Weston Chandler would be named something else, probably Mitch.

I may add more as I think of them.


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## CatParty (Jul 16, 2015)

higher football viewership on sundays


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## HG 400 (Jul 16, 2015)

Everyone would be baby rapists and go to hell.


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## Dr. Meme (Jul 16, 2015)

/r/atheism would have never reached it's true potential


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## ZehnBoat (Jul 16, 2015)

CuriousBystander said:


> - Christmas, Easter and Halloween would still exist in some fashion, but might not be as wide spread.


fun fact about christmas.
christmas as we know it now (a widespread "good christian" holiday) is relatively new.
the details are muddled, but it was a bigger deal in mainland europe (around germany) but in the anglosphere it was just either ignored or demonized.
then 'a christmas carol' came out and shit was changed.


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## Le Bateleur (Jul 16, 2015)

Richard Dawkins would likely never have become famous, meaning that we probably wouldn't use the word "meme".


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## KatsuKitty (Jul 16, 2015)

Absent a strong secular government system and scientific method, it is likely that Judaism or Islam would've risen in its stead. If it wasn't either of those religions, it would be a multitude of indigineous beliefs.


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## ZehnBoat (Jul 16, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> Everyone would be baby rapists and go to hell.


oh shit, without christianity there wouldn't be dante's inferno.
to put this in perspective
english has the canterbury tales
spanish has don quixote
italian has dante's inferno
it's a huge deal

also without that we wouldn't have EDGY dante



KatsuKitty said:


> Absent a strong secular government system and scientific method, it is likely that Judaism or Islam would've risen in its stead. If it wasn't either of those religions, it would be a multitude of indigineous beliefs.


i think if a singular religion didn't spread across europe, there wouldn't be a single political europe but 2 or 3 europes.


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## Randall Fragg (Jul 16, 2015)

Obviously we'd all live in a technologically advanced atheist society without any brainwashed sheeple who worship an imaginary sky wizard


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## Johnny Bravo (Jul 16, 2015)

Absinthe said:


> Richard Dawkins would likely never have become famous, meaning that we probably wouldn't use the word "meme".



That's it.

I have to go back in time. I have to stop the memes.


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## chimpburgers (Jul 16, 2015)

Judaism, Buddhism, and all the different belief systems that are prevalent in African countries would be what the average person would be a part of. I also believe that Scientology would still exist in some form but under another name or something. If you're not part of any of those, the logic that's used for all those multilevel marketing scams would still be a thing unfortunately, but there would possibly be a slightly larger secular population depending on the areas you look at. In other words, sort of similar to how things are set up now.


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## Watcher (Jul 16, 2015)

Near impossible to predict.

When judging if something major hadn't happened 2000 years ago any number of things could've occurred.


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## Le Bateleur (Jul 16, 2015)

KatsuKitty said:


> Absent a strong secular government system and scientific method, it is likely that Judaism or Islam would've risen in its stead. If it wasn't either of those religions, it would be a multitude of indigineous beliefs.


Although no Christianity probably means no Islam, seeing as how Mohammed was likely turned on to monotheism by a relative who was a Christian monk.


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## sugoi-chan (Jul 16, 2015)

KatsuKitty said:


> Absent a strong secular government system and scientific method, it is likely that Judaism or Islam would've risen in its stead. If it wasn't either of those religions, it would be a multitude of indigineous beliefs.



Likely not Judaism. That's a religion closely linked with ethnicity and was a minority religion even in the Roman period. Part of Christianity's growth was due to it being a more open, accepting religion to converts. Even today, conversion to Judaism is a controversial subject among jews. Islam's a little more questionable - there's some speculation that Mohammed was inspired by contact between Christians and pagan Arab tribes. Without that contact, would he have had the inspiration to found Islam? But there aren't a lot of sources for that period and that sort of thinking is the kind likely to get you jihaded.

Like @Cuddlebug said, I think it's one of those things that's just too impossible to say definitively. Christianity was a huge unifying force throughout most of the middle ages in Europe, the influence of which the world still feels.



CuriousBystander said:


> - The Dark Ages may have been less dark in the west.



The Dark Ages being a time of anti-science persecution is a myth begun by Renaissance philosophers with an axe to grind and carried on by Enlightenment writers who wanted to make a show of just how un-religious they were. Most historians of the period use it in a very specific context (there's a noticeable decline in written records from the period compared to before and after, so the period is "dark" - and usually in some regions compared to others), and even more just don't use it at all.


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## Johnny Bravo (Jul 16, 2015)

sugoi-chan said:


> The Dark Ages being a time of anti-science persecution is a myth begun by Renaissance philosophers with an axe to grind and carried on by Enlightenment writers who wanted to make a show of just how un-religious they were. Most historians of the period use it in a very specific context (there's a noticeable decline in written records from the period compared to before and after, so the period is "dark" - and usually in some regions compared to others), and even more just don't use it at all.



Like I said, I'm not an expert on history. I suppose what I meant was that certain scientific discoveries may not have been hindered or silenced to the same degree - or possibly at all.

Of course this would all depend on what major religion took the place of Christianity, if any. There certainly would have been a majority religion but I have to wonder if it would have been sanctioned by the state in the same manner as Christianity. I mean, there could have been a Zoroastrian government or it may have been a situation similar to Rome where there was more or less religious freedom.

I only have a vague idea of I'm talking about. Please don't hit me history nerds.


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## ZehnBoat (Jul 16, 2015)

you know what wouldn't change?
life in north and south america up until a certain point.


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## AnOminous (Jul 16, 2015)

Fedoras would be known only as a stylish hat worn by men in business attire.


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## sugoi-chan (Jul 16, 2015)

CuriousBystander said:


> Like I said, I'm not an expert on history. I suppose what I meant was that certain scientific discoveries may not have been hindered or silenced to the same degree - or possibly at all.





Spoiler: Historyfag spergs all over the place



Generally speaking, the medieval church wasn't anti-science. Science was a good thing. God was in everything, everything is god. Science explained how things worked and brought one closer to understanding God. In the middle ages, theology was science and vice versa - there wasn't a distinction. It's sometimes a particularly hard worldview for modern people, educated as we are in the post-Enlightenment, evidence-oriented tradition to wrap our heads around, admittedly.

To give some examples: universities began during the middle ages, some of which still exist today. These were institutions usually founded by/funded by the Church. (There were a couple of secular ones too, usually founded by the town that they were in, but they too taught theology). The academic "model" of work sharing and citing and building on others' research started there. The great cathedrals of Europe were built then, architectural wonders that they are. There were a lot of discoveries in math made by people like Fibbonaci or Nicole Oresme that I could not even begin to explain the significance of except to tell you that their work was built on and used by later, more modern mathematicians. The sciences of optics and navigation got their start during the middle ages. Even more simply: Christian priests were educated. They loved to write and read. They preserved many, many texts from Roman/Greek periods and translated more once Europe kinda "stabilized" and cultural contact began with the Byzantines and Muslims. The middle ages was a time of ebb and flow in peace and wealth, like any other period. Wealthy, stable societies are needed for foster academic environments - you can't study while you're getting attacked by the lord next door's men - and so the middle ages saw it's downs (especially after the collapse of Rome) and its ups (Carolingian Renaissance, 12th century renaissance, etc).

It wasn't all peaches and roses, obviously. People still believed that your health was controlled by humors and the Black Death was attributed to all sorts of things like bad air and sin and Jew poisoning instead of TAKE A FUCKING FLEA BATH. Jews, especially, were blamed for just about every bad thing that happened and were kicked out of a number of countries (ever wonder how so many jews ended up in Poland?). The Crusades were an abhorrent stain on humanity's legacy - especially in the areas of sacking (See Constantinople, 1204 and Jerusalem in 1099). 

The concept of the Dark Ages came from Renaissance philosophers who saw themselves as sort of a "rebirth" of classical Greek and Roman arts, sciences, language, etc. Renaissance literally means rebirth, in fact. When Constantinople fell, Greeks from the city flooded west and they brought with them books and writings from Greek and Arabic scientists that had hitherto been unknown in Europe. This sparked a revolution in learning and understanding and much in the way each generation in the modern day sees itself as better than the one before it, the Renaissance writers/thinkers/philosophers did too. So they insisted that their revolution reawakened the "light of classical societies" that had been muddled under the stagnant "Middle Ages" (in fact, "Middle Ages" was even invented by Renaissance writers, intended pejoratively.) It was later picked up (and definitively given an anti-religious slant) by Enlightenment thinkers who wanted to make sure the world knew just how anti-religious they were. Gibbon, for example, placed a huge part of the blame for the fall of Rome at the feet of Christianity because it had shifted Roman focus away from the famous civic virtues that had made it such a powerhouse.

So yeah. Sorry for sperging. History, especially this period, is one of my "things".


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## Abethedemon (Jul 16, 2015)

Buddhism, Hinduism, Manichaeism, Roman Paganism, Judaism, Mithraism, Islam and Zoroastrianism would be more prominent than they already are. I would imagine that Buddhism would have a more greco-roman feel, and roman paganism would tolerate more minority religions. We might see even more of an islamic renaissance, and it might even come to more power in Europe, with Europeans.


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## DogTelephone (Jul 16, 2015)

My first guess would be that there would be a higher Jewish population. If you beleive the story in the bible, first off, all the first born sons that were killed at the time of Jesus' birth wouldn't have died, and there would be no one who left Judaism to follow Jesus. 
      And later on there would be no forced converts from the crusades, and there would be no conflict between Christians and Jews since there are no Christians...
  Islam, if it exists in this alternate universe, would also be different because it was influenced by both Christianity and Judaism.


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## sugoi-chan (Jul 16, 2015)

Another option I hadn't considered was that there might just be another Jewish messianic cult that crops up that takes off like Christianity did. It might be different, but ever since the Romans stomped the crap out of the Maccabees and took Judea as a province, Jewish end-of-days messianic preaching was at a fever pitch.


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## AnOminous (Jul 16, 2015)

sugoi-chan said:


> Another option I hadn't considered was that there might just be another Jewish messianic cult that crops up that takes off like Christianity did. It might be different, but ever since the Romans stomped the crap out of the Maccabees and took Judea as a province, Jewish end-of-days messianic preaching was at a fever pitch.



Good point.  And whoever that guy was, they probably would have killed him, too.  So it might be nearly exactly Christianity just with another name.


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## sugoi-chan (Jul 16, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Good point.  And whoever that guy was, they probably would have killed him, too.  So it might be nearly exactly Christianity just with another name.



Joestianity.


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## Johnny Bravo (Jul 16, 2015)

sugoi-chan said:


> Joestianity.



Brianity.


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## DuskEngine (Jul 17, 2015)

If Christianity were never a thing (which would mean that Islam was never a thing) then Buddhism would probably be the dominant religion of most Asian countries, considering how syncretized it is with so many local traditions.


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## c-no (Jul 17, 2015)

DawnMachine said:


> If Christianity were never a thing (which would mean that Islam was never a thing) then Buddhism would probably be the dominant religion of most Asian countries, considering how syncretized it is with so many local traditions.


Buddhism was able to integrate alongside Chinese beliefs such as Daoism and Confucianism. Add to that Buddhism spreading through all of the Asiatic regions and it would be more dominant than it actually is. Countries such as the Philippines and Indonesia would respectively have Buddhism as the dominant religion since Christianity and Islam wouldn't be a thing.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jul 17, 2015)

ZehnBoat said:


> fun fact about christmas.
> christmas as we know it now (a widespread "good christian" holiday) is relatively new.
> the details are muddled, but it was a bigger deal in mainland europe (around germany) but in the anglosphere it was just either ignored or demonized.
> then 'a christmas carol' came out and shit was changed.



Christmas was popular enough in England under the Protectorate that the government specifically passed laws against its practice.


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## tehfolder (Jul 18, 2015)

Angelica wouldn't have graced the pages of Sonichu.


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## ZehnBoat (Jul 18, 2015)

tehfolder said:


> Angelica wouldn't have graced the pages of Sonichu.


without angelica chris wouldn't have made that pic of her touching herself in a church.


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## The Oddball from MLW (Jul 28, 2015)

Without Christianity, I could easily see the polytheistic faiths in Rome giving way to a nonreligious population. Nordic and Gothic paganism would likely be instilled on the conquered peoples later on. Islam would be considerably different, and would likely become something like Christianity. This would lead to Islam as a dominant religion in Europe and eventually the world.


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## Pickle Inspector (Jul 28, 2015)

I think Christianity played quite a big part in ending the slave trade (Christians like this guy) so without Christianity legal slave ownership might have gone on for longer.


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## AnOminous (Jul 28, 2015)

Pickle Inspector said:


> I think Christianity played quite a big part in ending the slave trade (Christians like this guy) so without Christianity legal slave ownership might have gone on for longer.



There was also John Brown, best American terrorist ever.  He was a radical Calvinist who viewed himself as an agent of God.

But the mainstream Christian establishment in the South was directly engaged in reinforcing the institution of slavery, like all the other major institutions.

Some denominations, like Quakers, were adamantly opposed to slavery from the earliest days of the colonies.  But they weren't in the majority and they didn't have much sway on the larger denominations, which were split on the issue just like the population at large was.


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## ASoulMan (Jul 28, 2015)

I'd imagine that Judaism and Islam would be more prominent in the place of Christianity.


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## Fallensaint (Jul 28, 2015)

Nothing much I imagine other than a shift of deity.

Edit: IIRC correctly Christians invented public healthcare as well as homeless shelters so there's that.


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## Pocoyo (Jul 28, 2015)

The music scene would definitely be changed. Not sure by how much, but one thing for sure is that we wouldn't have the masterpieces by Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, etc, that were influenced by it.


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## AnimuGinger (Jul 28, 2015)

We'd be missing out on some wonderful beers and wines if monks hadn't spent their time making it.


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## nad7155 (Jul 28, 2015)

Boobies on TV in the US.


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## Abethedemon (Jul 28, 2015)

We might have a Pagan Weston Chandler.


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## Bungleboy (Jul 29, 2015)

Instead of communion ever Sunday, you'd have to slit the throat of an unwed virgin every harvest season to appease Chattur'gha.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jul 29, 2015)

A lot of people here seem to think that, if it was invented by a christian, it would never have existed without christianity.

Would we conversely say that without Islam we wouldn't have the scientific method?


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## Fallensaint (Jul 29, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> A lot of people here seem to think that, if it was invented by a christian, it would never have existed without christianity.
> 
> Would we conversely say that without Islam we wouldn't have the scientific method?



Nah, it just would have taken longer. We're not assuming they wouldn't exist just that they'd be less advanced.


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## GS 281 (Jul 29, 2015)

Abethedemon said:


> We might have a Pagan Weston Chandler.


We would worship Chris as a prophet who wrote about the coming of a terrifying beast that would do his bidding.


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## AnOminous (Jul 29, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> A lot of people here seem to think that, if it was invented by a christian, it would never have existed without christianity.
> 
> Would we conversely say that without Islam we wouldn't have the scientific method?



We wouldn't have math, yanno.  Because algebra.  al-jabr.

Etc.


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## Red_Rager (Jul 30, 2015)

Pocoyo said:


> The music scene would definitely be changed. Not sure by how much, but one thing for sure is that we wouldn't have the masterpieces by Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, etc, that were influenced by it.


As sad as it would be to lose them, but then there would be other masterpieces that would have taken their place. What those masterpieces would be, I don't know. 

Chances are very few of us would even be born as the world would be a very changed place. People move and meet other people based on circumstances and the farther history deviates from event x the greater the change will be. How many people were born from missionaries who left home to spread the word of their God.  How many people would have been born if some ladies haven't chosen to become a nun. Perhaps the child born from that none could have grown up to marry one our ancestors resulting in a different family line.  The same principle applies to the Catholic priests who are not allowed to get married.  I am not even going to get into the religious killings. A new set of people would be born and what influence those hypothetical people would have is hard to say.

In the grand scheme of things, life will move on and something will take the place of Christianity.  Whatever this religion is will have an effect on personal relations and how people interact with each other.  For starters consider how well the Catholics and the protestants get along in Ireland.


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## Dudeofteenage (Aug 2, 2015)

Red_Rager said:


> Chances are very few of us would even be born as the world would be a very changed place.



That's true of just about any hypothetical change to history.  The circumstances of any particular person's birth are reliant on a very complex web of events, and even a minor change to one of the many-points-removed antecedents of any one of those events would result in a completely different person being born.  If a single peasant a thousand years ago had changed his mind about repairing his fence, you'd have a whole bunch of people not being born and a whole other bunch of people being born in their place.  That's just how causality works.

The scenario where something major changes but all the historical figures are still born makes for popular (I won't say good) alternative history novels, but it makes zero sense.


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## Bugaboo (Aug 17, 2015)

Like other people had said, more muslims and jews would probably be around. As for what the western world would be like, who knows? 
Let's go back, change history and make Jesus a porcupine and then no one would listen to his teachings and see what happens in modern day
(Also, probably no crusades)


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## Adamska (Aug 17, 2015)

Bugaboo said:


> Like other people had said, more muslims and jews would probably be around. As for what the western world would be like, who knows?
> Let's go back, change history and make Jesus a porcupine and then no one would listen to his teachings and see what happens in modern day
> (Also, probably no crusades)



The thing is Islam wouldn't exist without Christianity. Islam was a kludged together mix of traditional Arabic beliefs, Ebionite Christianity, aspects of Judaism, and Muhammad's own ideas. Most faiths that have been influenced or created in part by Christianity would either not exist or exist in such a different state as to be alien to us.

My guess would be that an eastern religion or the old pagan faiths would fill in the hole. Zoroastrianism by my understanding was resistant to allowing converts for some reason (as were the Jews), so a distinct possibility could exist for Buddhism to become a "Western" faith in some way. Or alternatively the gods of the Greeks and Romans disseminate out and mix/get eaten by the Germanic pantheon with Slavo-Baltic mythology, topped off with traditional Iranian beliefs and the teachings of Tengri. Essentially a "Western Hinduism" where hundreds of ideologies and pantheons are fused together to some semi-religion of sorts.


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## Bugaboo (Aug 17, 2015)

Adamska said:


> The thing is Islam wouldn't exist without Christianity. Islam was a kludged together mix of traditional Arabic beliefs, Ebionite Christianity, aspects of Judaism, and Muhammad's own ideas. Most faiths that have been influenced or created in part by Christianity would either not exist or exist in such a different state as to be alien to us.
> 
> My guess would be that an eastern religion or the old pagan faiths would fill in the hole. Zoroastrianism by my understanding was resistant to allowing converts for some reason (as were the Jews), so a distinct possibility could exist for Buddhism to become a "Western" faith in some way. Or alternatively the gods of the Greeks and Romans disseminate out and mix/get eaten by the Germanic pantheon with Slavo-Baltic mythology, topped off with traditional Iranian beliefs and the teachings of Tengri. Essentially a "Western Hinduism" where hundreds of ideologies and pantheons are fused together to some semi-religion of sorts.


Still no crusades though, unless they did another crusade for a different thing


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## Dudeofteenage (Aug 17, 2015)

Bugaboo said:


> Still no crusades though, unless they did another crusade for a different thing



Not crusades specifically, but holy wars of some complexion would have still happened.


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## Vex Overmind (Aug 20, 2015)

Even though I lean slightly towards being an Agnostic, Atheist have this simple mindset believing that somehow getting rid of religion is somehow going to magically solve all of the world's problems. This is the same logic that fanatical zealots of different religions use, assuming that if they get rid of all the heretics and people who don't believe in there fan-ermmm, religion.

If there is some how some kind of strife in this Atheist Utopia, it won't be as bad as the one dominated by religion.


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## AnOminous (Aug 20, 2015)

Vex Overmind said:


> Even though I lean slightly towards being an Agnostic, Atheist have this simple mindset believing that somehow getting rid of religion is somehow going to magically solve all of the world's problems. This is the same logic that fanatical zealots of different religions use, assuming that if they get rid of all the heretics and people who don't believe in there fan-ermmm, religion.
> 
> If there is some how some kind of strife in this Atheist Utopia, it won't be as bad as the one dominated by religion.



Religion nicely fits into a slot somewhere in the human psyche.  At its best it can be benign and encourage pro-social or at least harmless behavior.  At its worst, you get Jonestown.  So the very least you can say about the established religions is they keep someone from getting sucked into something worse.

If you did, somehow, eliminate all religion, some opportunistic thing would step in, probably something awful, and would be even worse.  Examples that support this would include the fiercely atheistic Soviet Union under Stalin and similar dictatorships, which replace the benign faith in a God who at least doesn't do anything terrible with the active support of megalomaniacal monsters who wreak havoc.


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## Vex Overmind (Aug 20, 2015)

What atheist forget that Humans are very emotional beings, too emotional at sometimes. They forget that people form cults of personality similar to those in North Korea and the bygone days of the Soviet Union.

Yet they would say that the Soviet Union doesn't represent true "Atheism." which by the way, sort of contradicts itself because they are implying that there are many types of Fedora Atheism.


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## Cosmos (Aug 20, 2015)

So glad that most Kiwis aren't euphoric atheists who believe that we would be living in a futuristic utopia if Christianity never existed. Family Guy did a short segment on that and it was fucking painful.


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## c-no (Aug 21, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> So glad that most Kiwis aren't euphoric atheists who believe that we would be living in a futuristic utopia if Christianity never existed. Family Guy did a short segment on that and it was fucking painful.


It would be partly excused by it being alternate universe which could give it a slide (provided alternate universe can mean anything). Really, it would be simplistic and naive to think the world would be better without Christianity. There could be another religion to take its place. Some pagan religions may survive only to get taken down by something else. Just because one thing wouldn't exist wouldn't mean we couldn't get witch hunts. There could be other things to take its place, be it having a different institutional reason to do some massive hunt (could fall under other reasons such as ethnic or nationalistic reasons). I could be wrong though in terms of the witch hunt thing.


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## Cosmos (Aug 21, 2015)

c-no said:


> It would be partly excused by it being alternate universe which could give it a slide (provided alternate universe can mean anything). Really, it would be simplistic and naive to think the world would be better without Christianity. There could be another religion to take its place. Some pagan religions may survive only to get taken down by something else. Just because one thing wouldn't exist wouldn't mean we couldn't get witch hunts. There could be other things to take its place, be it having a different institutional reason to do some massive hunt (could fall under other reasons such as ethnic or nationalistic reasons). I could be wrong though in terms of the witch hunt thing.



Exactly, some people just don't understand that. Even if religion as a whole (not just Christianity) never existed, people would still fight and kill each other over resources, ideals, beliefs, politics, etc. I mean, we had modern-day witch hunts during the Cold War (for communists in America and for capitalists in the Soviet Union) and those had nothing to do with religion. And when you think about it, the biggest wars in history (both World Wars, the American Revolutionary and Civil Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, the Hundred Years' War, etc) had nothing to do with religion.


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## Massif (Aug 21, 2015)

Vex Overmind said:


> Even though I lean slightly towards being an Agnostic, Atheist have this simple mindset believing that somehow getting rid of religion is somehow going to magically solve all of the world's problems. This is the same logic that fanatical zealots of different religions use, assuming that if they get rid of all the heretics and people who don't believe in there fan-ermmm, religion.
> 
> If there is some how some kind of strife in this Atheist Utopia, it won't be as bad as the one dominated by religion.


Atheism is a stance on whether deity/ies exist not a set of views on how the world ought to be or even what other people ought to believe.


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## Vex Overmind (Aug 21, 2015)

Us, Humans as a species have a hard time comprehending the Universe as a whole. How can we say something doesn't exist, but yet we have no proof to claim that something doesn't exist. It's like saying there's no intelligent life in the universe other than us, even though we have little or no evidence to claim such things.


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## Massif (Aug 21, 2015)

Vex Overmind said:


> Us, Humans as a species have a hard time comprehending the Universe as a whole. How can we say something doesn't exist, but yet we have no proof to claim that something doesn't exist. It's like saying there's no intelligent life in the universe other than us, even though we have little or no evidence to claim such things.


The claim that there is a god has no evidence supporting it and thus it goes in the bin with all other possible claims that have no evidence supporting them.
It is true that you can never with complete certainty say that anything does not exist but why even consider it unless someone provides compelling evidence towards it? Why is the claim that god exists privileged over other claims? It's also a terribly unclear claim, which god exactly are we talking about here? What are the criteria for something being allowed to be called a god? There are infinite ways of varying the claim of god's existence, I can add the infinity+1th clause and now I've generated a new claim which also needs to be considered since it isn't disproved, It's not illogical to be an atheist because we are all atheists in relation to an infinite set of non-disproved deities.
This is why in my view the default stance towards a claim of this type is to just consider it neither definitely true nor untrue until proven otherwise and thus atheist(meaning lack of belief in a deity, not necessarily opposition to that belief) is a logical label.  The key here is "Lack of belief" not "Absolutely logically certain of something's nonexistence", the latter would be an impossibility.


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## Adamska (Aug 21, 2015)

I'd like to note this is a what-if scenario, not yet another podium to argue the nature of any deity, should any being or beings, exist.

More shit posts on today without that Jesus guy and less about that stuff; it probably has its own thread and everything anyway so go there dagnabbit.


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## Vex Overmind (Aug 21, 2015)

I apologize for being an ADHD ridden faggot. 

Regardless of the rather short transgression, I think the world wouldn't be that much of a different place than it is now. We still might have the Internet, Computers, Electronics, Modern Medicine, Stem Cells, and all that other good stuff, but instead of large cathedrals, we have shrines dedicated to some pagan god. It would also be very fucking cool to see instead of the US Army praying to God, they pray to some battle god like Ares, cool in theory.


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## Pocoyo (Aug 22, 2015)

Vex Overmind said:


> It would also be very fucking cool to see instead of the US Army praying to God, they pray to some battle god like Ares, cool in theory.



And rather appropriate, too.


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## Vex Overmind (Aug 22, 2015)

And would Western Europe worship the Greek or Roman God's?


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## HG 400 (Aug 22, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> And when you think about it, the biggest wars in history (both World Wars, the American Revolutionary and Civil Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, the Hundred Years' War, etc) had nothing to do with religion.



30 years war tho.


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## AnOminous (Aug 22, 2015)

Massif said:


> The claim that there is a god has no evidence supporting it and thus it goes in the bin with all other possible claims that have no evidence supporting them.



Actually, it has a lot of evidence supporting it, depending how you interpret that evidence.  The existence of the universe itself is a form of evidence.  What it doesn't have is the sort of unambiguous evidence that compels a specific conclusion.  That's why out of the subjective realm, any opinion on the existence of a Creator is just that, an opinion.

I find pro-theistic reasoning from the anthropic principle to be quite consistent with the actual evidence, but again, such reasoning requires one to accept the premises that lead to the theistic result.

"There is no God" is also a factual assertion without sufficient evidence to compel viewing it as a proven truth.

My personal opinion is that not only is the existence or nonexistence of God not known, but it is actually unknowable.  I suppose that could be called hard agnosticism, that is, as an epistemological thing.  But that's also just an opinion.  After all, I can't know that, either.

Also, subjectively, there are people whose experiences lead them to be satisfied there is a God who they know in their personal lives, and those experiences are pretty much as valid as mine.  My only disagreement with those people is to the extent they claim objective proof, or that their beliefs override objective reality, science, and other important things in a way that actually causes harm, which they usually don't.


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## Adamska (Aug 22, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> 30 years war tho.



Only initially; then it devolved into yet another dynastic squabble and powergrab between the French and the Hapsburgs.

And I'd like to note that with such a massive change in the timeline with no Christianity, there's a lot of assumption that besides that, the timeline would be similar. Rather doubtful, but understandable. Plus it'd be interesting to see events like the US military hailing Mars, or Mithra, or Odin.


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## GL99 (Aug 23, 2015)

Watcher said:


> Near impossible to predict.
> 
> When judging if something major hadn't happened 2000 years ago any number of things could've occurred.



While I'm not an expert on the history of Christianity generally, I'd tend to agree with this assessment. From what I've read, it's pretty hard to say whether or not that religion was a net positive or negative for Western civilization, which makes it extremely hard to ascertain what things would be like in its absence, especially since so many other things had changed.

On the one hand, even a cursory look at the wars of religion in European history can easily make one sympathize with Dawkins and other fedoratheists. The Bible has many, many passages that can (though not necessarily have to) lead to high degrees of social and political intolerance, whether it's in harsh Levitical laws or bloody campaigns of genocide against the Canaanites or Amalekites (in the Old testament) or the homophobia and sexism present in some of Paul's writing (in the New). Judaism may not have lent itself exceptionally well to coexistence with other faiths (as one might argue when looking at the constant Roman military excursions into Judea), but it (at least for much of its history, excepting the aforementioned messianic cults) had no pretensions to universality. Christ, on the other hand, supposedly asked His apostles to "make disciples of all nations." When you combine a particularly jealous God in Judaism with an obligation to spread that God's worship to all, you have a recipe for trouble. If there's only one Way to heaven, with all others leading to hell, differences in religion become matters of not just opinion but eternal damnation, making it much easier to justify widespread slaughter in the cause of safeguarding (your) True Faith. We thus see the mounds of corpses produced in the suppression of the Cathar heresy, the strife between Catholics and Protestants in Germany, the mix of religious and race-based bigotry in how Spain and Portugal treated Jewish converts, and so on, and so forth...

Yet, as I'm sure other historians here might point out, most of those "religious atrocities" had as much to do with politics and economics as faith. The extermination of the Cathars, for instance, really kicked into high gear when the heresy got involved with rebellion in several French provinces. The various conflicts between Catholics and Protestants in Germany also represented grudges between nobles and regions rather than just theological disputation. And the bigotry experienced by Jewish converts to Catholicism in Iberia also reflected popular jealousy over their comparative economic success, not just suspicion of their faith. And it is in the social and political spheres that the influence of Christianity seems less negative.

The decline and fall of the Roman Empire, for whatever reason (take your pick--plague? political incompetence? lead in the pipes? I've heard all of these) left a significant vacuum of political power within Western Europe, and none of the Germanic tribes settling in the area had even comparably sophisticated systems of government, diplomacy, or political culture. Despite all the troubling sections of the Bible I quoted above, it also has many passages of mercy and charity which would have buttressed any attempt to build a functioning polity and social structure to replace the Roman one. The same Old Testament which makes breaking the Sabbath a capital crime also commands us to care for orphans and the disabled and extend compassion to foreigners. Apostle Paul, who condemned "sexual immorality," also preached love, forgiveness, and charity. These are all concepts which would help build and maintain functional communities and a sense of public virtue, on which Roman society (and most others, really, then and now) depended.

On a macro scale, the Catholic Church took over many of the functions once served by the Roman government, distributing food to the needy, setting up nunneries and monasteries to serve various needs of local communities (ranging from hospital services from nuns to monks preserving Greco-Roman scholarship), and even brokering peace among constantly-quarreling knights and nobles (look up the "Peace and Truce of God," which set limits on medieval warfare). It was a truly international institution during a time when Western Europe, caught up in the incessant conflict among the tribes which would eventually become the English, French, Germans, etc. desperately needed one.

So in the final analysis, it's very hard to say we'd be better or worse off if Christianity hadn't risen to prominence. On the one hand, we might have had a more tolerant, pluralistic culture without the moral repression associated with both Catholicism and various Protestant sects at times. On the other hand, the lack of a semi-competent replacement for Roman government functions might have resulted in a much harsher and protracted period of chaos following the decline of the Empire. In life, you often have to take the good with the bad--and vice versa. I suppose the same applies to the historical effects of Christianity.


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## WallaceandGromit2 (Nov 29, 2019)

The West wouldn't have been propserous without Christ. It would have arisen and fallen like Rome. Only with God is continuous prosperity a thing. 1950s are a example of such. The baby boomer rise is tied in with the promise God made to Abraham.

Edit: bumped the thread since I didn't want to make a another thread resembling like this one since I was chastised for it. Even though it is old, it can be of value. We can still talk here.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Nov 30, 2019)

My predictions in order of what I consider plausible:

1. The West is Buddhist, but given the distance from the Orient, this is a very different, Helleno-Buddhist variant

2. The West goes Zoroastrian

3. The West develops its own religion that is to Hellenism what Buddhism is to Hinduism


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## mr.moon1488 (Nov 30, 2019)

DuskEngine said:


> If Christianity were never a thing (which would mean that Islam was never a thing) then Buddhism would probably be the dominant religion of most Asian countries, considering how syncretized it is with so many local traditions.


(yes I know I'm responding to a now ancient post)

Islam, or something similar to it would have likely still come about.  Islam is basically Judaism with some of the background lore altered to be more convenient, and with the removal of the ethnic requirement for membership.  Even if Christianity had not have existed, someone would have eventually taken notice of the ultra violent religion with an in-group/out-group dichotomous view of morality and thought "gee, if I strip out the ethnic requirements, I can use this to justify conquest and anything else I want.)


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## Lemmingwise (Nov 30, 2019)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> My predictions in order of what I consider plausible:
> 
> 1. The West is Buddhist, but given the distance from the Orient, this is a very different, Helleno-Buddhist variant
> 
> ...



I mean, christianity itself was developed in the west (even if it wasn't conceived there). Any of the religions that would have become the religion of the west, would be westernized.

Strong cultural gravity is hard to escape. Mongols conquered incredible swaths of land, but each mongol ruler was swallowed culturally by the territory they presided over. Uzbeg Khan became muslim, kublai khan ruled as a chinese ruler rather than as a mongolian khan.

It's likely that a western zoroastroism or buddhism would still be westernized and hard to compare to how we know them now.


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## Manwithn0n0men (Nov 30, 2019)

AnOminous said:


> Something equally dumb would be currently taking up the same space, and would probably have done about the same things.











						Mithraism
					

The Mithraic Mysteries, also known as Mithraism, were a mystery cult in the Roman world where followers worshipped the Indo-Iranian deity Mithras (Akkadian for "contract") as the god of friendship...




					www.ancient.eu
				











						Sol Invictus - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## ZeCommissar (Nov 30, 2019)

The problem with asking alternate history questions is that the further back you go the more things have to be changed. Taking out something like Christianity changes so many things for the past 2019 years. I mean shit our current calendar revolves around the birth of Christ (although we would probably have a 365 day calendar anyway)

We are talking nations, figures, institutions, and wars all changing into something entirely different, meaning an entirely different world. Almost every single thing you read in the history books would be significantly altered. 

Whether or not Islam would exist in it's current form without Christianity is debatable, but something very similar to it would have since Judaism still exists in this alternate history. I wonder if Islam would have taken a much stronger root in Europe, or if an alternate religion would have beat them back like in our reality. 

The world would not be a better place, and you could argue that it would perhaps be a worse place. Religion is not the problem people are.


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## Emperor Julian (Nov 30, 2019)

As has been stated it's difficult to speculate on that scale, you may as well have asked "what if there was only three seasons in the year?" the ramifications go so deeply it's impossible to know where to begin. Their's also additional layers of complexity when new religious/idea's/events/great men of history emerge in this alternate timeline who bend the path.

I'd also suggest many of the posters so far have been far to whiggish in their response to history. Just because events played out as they did does not mean they always, whose to say that large monothestic authoritarian mega faiths where the a freak accident and the other continents are the norm of man?

Almost certain ramifications
*No Islam, *unless you believe that Mo did in fact speak with God. Islam is right out. Without the religious and political landscape created in the period means that Muhammid is both unlikely to have been born  even if he had he would not have had the sort of ubringing where he got a 'vision'.

*Roman as a living culture continue to exist *
Catholicism largely obliterated Roman indentity by subsuming and transmuting it into the universal brotherhood of man. Once The Byzantine Empire mutated back into greek, the Romans effectively faded into history. Without Catholicism we may still have had hold out of people's who considered themselves sons of Romulus and remus.

*Larger numbers of jews but more sects*
It's very likely that Christianity acted as  draw for the more radical jews of the 1st-2nd centuries and it cannot be denied that Christanity has been a constant blight on the jewish population and engaged in anti-semetic persecution with deeper intensity than the Heathens managed. More radical sects are likely to emerge potentially becoming new faiths like Islam or Christianity if they do well enough


Likely ramifications
-Pagan faiths are more likely to survive, Not just Greco roman but also Germanic, celt and Tengri.
-Lots of smaller mystery religious like christianity milling around the place
-possible pagan reformations as faith becomes unified and codified. assuming simular status' as Hinduism.
-Western Roman Empire could potentially hold out for longer due to stronger emphasis on martial and civic duty
-Byzantine Empire is far stronger due not losing egypt to the calaphates meaning the Roman Empire could endure in some form to this day
-Persian Sassanid Empire surving for far longer and with it strong Zorostrian world presence.


Interesting possibilities
-The continued presence of Greco academies and place of learning may mean technology advances faster
-Stronger emphasis on virtues such as courage and honor over compassion and love in Western (Germanic/latin) culture
-Better access to classics as not breach in Hellenistic litterature traditions due to Greco Roman academic traditions being maintained
-Better hygeine standards due to early christianities retarded thoughts on bathing not existing....which mean a larger population quicker.
-recent LGBT developements occur quicker due to more relaxed attitudes to homosexuality found in Roman paganism.
-West vs east contrast doesnt exist as neither have enough of a unified culture to justify that narrative more Germans vs Greco-Romans vs persians vs everyone else.


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## Alex Krycek (Nov 30, 2019)

I’m Orthodox. Somewhat religious even. However I think that Manichaeism would have risen either way, probably with more Buddhist influences than Abrahamic ones and potentially merged with Neoplatonism and a sort of Monotheism would have still permeated Western society. 

I agree with @Emperor Julian that there would be no rise of Islam. Mostly because Mohammed’s teachers were mostly Nestorian Christians. That said, it’s not unlikely Zoroastrianism or Karaite Judaism would have firmly grown in the Arabian Peninsula. Arabs were always ingenious traders and Islam is, in my opinion a way to assert Arab cultural dominance after being subjected to the dominance of other cultures for centuries.

The Turks and Mongols likely would have retained Tengriist worship. Very likely adopting Buddhist Elements over time but nowhere near as they had under Chinese and Manchu suzerainty. Northern Europe would have remained Pagan for far longer but would gradually adopt the Manichaean-Neoplatonist faith. 

Zoroastrianism likely replaces Islam as the great adversary of the West. Maybe adopting the more mystical Zurvanism or Mazdakism possibly the two go through a schism similar to the Sunni-Shia one. In fact I could see Mazdakism and it’s emphasis on classlessness really taking root in places where the caste system dominates. However Mazdakism doesn’t create strong economies, and we actually see Marxism hundreds of years earlier in Mazdaki courts. 

China largely remains the same.


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## snailslime (Dec 1, 2019)

more people would probably be pagans (and there would have been less wars)


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## Syaoran Li (Dec 1, 2019)

The Culture Wars and the Left vs. Right paradigm of the 20th and 21st Centuries would most certainly not exist if Christianity never rose to prominence.

I'm not going to judge whether or not the absence of Christianity would be a net positive or negative on Western culture since the advent of Christianity in Europe was one of the biggest game-changers in world history.

But I do know that the idea of "Left vs. Right" wouldn't be a thing in either the economic or social sense. The very idea of the left wing and the right wing directly resulted from the French Revolution and most of the social stances of the Left and Right are informed by Western Christianity (particularly Protestantism) both in what each side typically supports and what they typically oppose.

The French Revolution had a very atheistic streak to it, given the Roman Catholic Church's close ties to the Ancien Regime and especially the then-ruling House of Bourbon. The Russian Revolution of 1917 was even more virulently anti-theistic and not only went after Orthodox Christians, but also religious Jews, Muslims, and the Russian Empire's notable Christian minorities such as Catholics, Armenians, and the Germanic Protestant sects in the Baltics and Volga region. 

Marx was very much a firm believer in an atheist utopia on Earth, in direct opposition to the traditional Christian view of a cursed Earth and eternal paradise in Heaven. 

A more relevant example to this site is the SJW Left and the rise of "woke culture" since the SJW zeitgeist largely began as a backlash against the Bush-era Religious Right.


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## ScamL Likely (Dec 1, 2019)

It's probably impossible to make an accurate prediction.


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## CheezzyMach (Dec 1, 2019)

Meh another religion probably would have replaced it.


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## Pitere pit (Dec 4, 2019)

One good thing is that Islam wouldn't exist, after all, Muhammad was influenced by jewish/christian religion. 
However, it would have changed a lot of our history. In the middle ages, monks copied all the greco roman works into layman words, they build the first colleges, law and philosophy would not be the same too. 
It's impossible to think about a non christian world because of how much they did in the past.


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