# Transgender Bathrooms



## The Lizard Queen (Apr 16, 2016)

So, there have been a lot of news stories popping up about transgender rights, and most especially, transgender bathroom rights.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-idUSKCN0XA2F2

Things like the South Carolina "bathroom bill" have been all over the news lately, with various politicians and celebrities bashing the law, and companies going so far as to cancel business contracts because they refuse to endorse a state that supports discrimination of any kind.

I don't normally discriminate with stuff like this, but something about the idea of letting anyone into my bathroom creeps me out...






Especially if they look like...


Spoiler: This....













Spoiler: Or this...










Or really, just about any lolcow in these forums.

But what do you think? Should trans people be allowed to go where they please?


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## autisticdragonkin (Apr 16, 2016)

I think that it is a thing that is so minor I don't care one way or another. I think that these laws are just made to antagonize a certain group and governments shouldn't do that but the groups protesting these laws have done their best to try to convince me otherwise. I overall think that government should stop going after people for lifestyle choices that don't adversely affect others regardless of the effects on the individual making the decision as it is only the job of the government to facilitate mutually beneficial interactions between its citizens and no more


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## Mesh Gear Fox (Apr 16, 2016)

The Lizard Queen said:


> But, there's still a part of me that is deeply uncomfortable with the idea of allowing _anyone_ to go into _any _bathroom they want.



I actually agree with you on this one.  I'm openly gay so I should be more tolerant, but it does make me uncomfortable.  I just spent the last week in LA so I experienced it first hand and I did have that visceral reaction that made me want to leave the bathroom asap.  I know it's not nice but it's just the way I felt.  I live in a small mountain town in a very gay-unfriendly state so there's no community here.  I'm sure if I was exposed to it more,  I would gradually be able to get used to it.  

I know it sucks to be transgendered because they face a tremendous amount of discrimination.  I hope that I and everyone else will eventually be more accepting of it.  Hell, when I was in high school I thought that gay marriage would never be legalized in my lifetime, and if it did, I would be an old man.  Fortunately I was wrong and society got used to it and it's not much of an issue anymore (especially because of that Supreme Court decision).  I think the same will happen with transgendered persons, but I think it will take a lot longer than the acceptance of gay marriage.

Okay powerlevel/sperging over :p


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## Marvin (Apr 16, 2016)

The Lizard Queen said:


> Yes, most people would say "who cares? Just let them use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable with..." And that's fine for me up to a point. Most tranny people try to pass in society, and don't draw much attention to themselves... But imagine if it was someone else. Someone more like...
> 
> 
> Spoiler: This....
> ...


Think about a transman. They're 5'10" and built like a linebacker. Would you want them in the women's bathroom?

Chris and ADF are not legal women. There are also plenty of gross people who can legally go into your bathroom as things are.

Furthermore, all the concerns about predators getting into bathrooms are retarded. No one is going to destroy their social relations by pretending to be trans just to watch you poop. That's retarded.

At the end of the day, gender is the worst way to filter out creeps because there are only two of them (despite what some people on tumblr might think). You'd need a fine toothed comb to actually filter out creeps.


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## Jerk Sauce (Apr 16, 2016)

It's a very tough question, I have known a trans person before, and while I don't really understand it they were a pretty good person. On the one hand I don't want creepers able to just walk into and use the women's bathroom, on the other they are at a slight risk using the male bathroom [although probably ok if they keep to themselves]. You could build toilets specifically for them to use but that comes at a greater cost in terms of expense and room, and you can bet those costs will be passed on to the public. Assuming you weren't going to build extra facilities I guess probably the best compromise would be to require them to dress as the sex they are claiming, that at least should dissuade casual creepers from trying it on.


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## SpessCaptain (Apr 16, 2016)

I think we had a thread about this.

I mean, there's the unisex bathroom, you know?


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## AnOminous (Apr 16, 2016)

I think it's likely that far more creeps will use hate-based anti-trans laws as an excuse to harass innocent people than it is that pervs like Phil will use it (successfully) to harass normal people.  There are just a lot more self-appointed morality police with vigilante mentalities than there are trannies, and way, way more of that kind of person than there are fake trannies of the Phil sort.  I don't really want that kind of person lurking outside of bathrooms to demand a look at children's genitals.

I don't fear going to McDonald's because I might encounter a Chris-Chan who then tries to run me over or mace me for no reason, because that's pretty rare compared to encountering some vanilla idiot.  So I don't think policy should be made based on outlying freaks like Phil or Jordman or Ronald McDonald Walsh or even the entirety of every rat king we cover here.

Not that I think erring toward tolerance is going to create a perfect world where creeps like Phil don't exist, but someone like that stands out in a major way, even in the community he's shielding with.  If he acts like enough of a creep he's going to get his ass kicked no matter what the law is.



Valiant said:


> I think we had a thread about this.
> 
> I mean, there's the unisex bathroom, you know?



It's nice when these exist, and in a lot of places, that's the only bathroom there is.

So it's funny this problem is mainly going to affect not the smallest places (that won't have a bathroom at all or will only have one unisex one) nor the richest (trendy places full of hipsters are going to come up with the money to do this shit if they have to remodel to do it), but normal places like fast food restaurants and small schools that are stuck with building choices made decades ago.


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## KatsuKitty (Apr 16, 2016)

There's validity to both sides of this argument as long as you don't say that transwomen are sexually assaulting cis women, because it's just not true. I'm willing to hear either side if you can work forward from that premise.

The real problem is whether or not the laws that allow trans people to use the bathroom are poorly worded enough that a cis man perv would get off the hook in court on a technicality. It's important to remember that the rejection of a specific anti-discrimination measure does not mean you are not in favour of the idea. I'm generally not in favour of regulations on private business for civil rights, but it's been jurisprudence since 1964, and it will be important to word this properly if you _must_ pass it. A clause stating that this law shall not be interpreted to defend the rights of people without an established, medical record of transition would be all you need to counter this argument. This hints at judicious use of probable cause by police when deciding to hear allegations of peeping toms. If they have a record of transition, they're abundantly likely not to be in there to peep.

There is the non-legal aspect of this too, which falls into "At the end of the day...". What do I mean by that? There's just certain things that, _at the end of the day_, people are going to freak the fuck out at you without any other circumstance. It's not about being rational, it's not about thinking it out, _at the end of the day this thing happened. _It's a zero-tolerance thing; you did it, you're fucked. The trans bathroom thing is similar: At the end of the day, you brought a dick into the women's locker room. That's it. Nothing else matters. There's a dick in the women's locker room. That's just not going to go over well with people and they're not going to care about anything else you have to say. The only way you counter _that_ though, is education, not with a big-government sledgehammer. You can't just _force_ most women to be comfortable in that environment particularly when there's an epidemic of rape (by cis men) in this country that we've just given up on. The whole "just redesign bathrooms" thing is dodging the bigger problem, which is the reason _why_ women don't feel safe around male bodies; we've just completely given up on ever solving and punishing sexual assault and simply accept that men "just do it".


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## Joan Nyan (Apr 16, 2016)

If a man wants to go into the women's room to commit rape, he already can most of the time. Most places don't have someone guarding the restroom doors. Just make all restrooms unisex and be done with it.

Also, many of the corporations who won't do business in NC have no trouble doing business in the Middle East where gays are hanged.


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## Hanamura (Apr 19, 2016)

I think the concept of the laws are really dumb and hard to enforce in the first place.

If you're going solely based off of looks, butch women are getting kicked out of bathrooms already due to being mistaken for men

People have brought up "ID checks" but
1. I don't think most places can afford some bathroom guard to personally check everyone's ID
2. If the issue is someone with a dick is gonna enter the girl's bathroom, plenty of pre-bottom surgery trans women can get their ID's changed without bottom surgery.


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## Sheikh_Speare (Apr 19, 2016)

Marvin said:


> Furthermore, all the concerns about predators getting into bathrooms are retarded. No one is going to destroy their social relations by pretending to be tranny just to watch you poop. That's retarded.



I think you underestimate how far people will go to perv out.

Man Dressed as Woman Arrested for Spying Into Mall Bathroom Stall, Police Say

I'm from NC (sorry about the power level). The reason that people opposed the original Charlotte "bathroom inclusiveness" law and why McCrory signed the ordinance that countered it was because it was too loosely worded. It allowed anyone who said they identified as a woman to use women's facilities. The state ordinance still allows transwomen who legally had their birth certificates changed to use the women's room, it just makes it possible to prosecute the sort of "pigs in wigs" who could've abused the wording of the Charlotte law.


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## Philosophy Zombie (Apr 19, 2016)

KatsuKitty said:


> It's a zero-tolerance thing; you did it, you're fucked. The tranny bathroom thing is similar: At the end of the day, you brought a dick into the women's locker room. That's it. Nothing else matters. There's a dick in the women's locker room. That's just not going to go over well with people and they're not going to care about anything else you have to say. The only way you counter _that_ though, is education, not with a big-government sledgehammer. You can't just _force_ most women to be comfortable in that environment particularly when there's an epidemic of rape (by cis men) in this country that we've just given up on. The whole "just redesign bathrooms" thing is dodging the bigger problem, which is the reason _why_ women don't feel safe around male bodies; we've just completely given up on ever solving and punishing sexual assault and simply accept that men "just do it".





Spoiler: nsfw



https://kiwifarms.net/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPJxEfxh.png&hash=18bd48a3f46cb502fc519256c7139355
(thanks @Kusottare lol)


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## Pepsi-Cola (Apr 19, 2016)

I think if they don't have a record of sexual assualt/harassment/rape/whatever and they've undergone transition, I don't see the problem.


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## autisticdragonkin (Apr 19, 2016)

Pepsi said:


> I think if they don't have a record of sexual assualt/harassment/rape/whatever and they've underogone transition, I don't see the problem.


Where would the sex offenders go then. Would there be designated sex offender washrooms? I don't want a sex offender sharing a washroom with a sex offender especially if they target my gender and not the one they are transitioning to


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## Pepsi-Cola (Apr 19, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> Where would the sex offenders go then. Would there be designated sex offender washrooms? I don't want a sex offender sharing a washroom with a sex offender especially if they target my gender and not the one they are transitioning to


Hm, I'm not quite sure tbh. I don't mean to sound sexist or anything like that but imo they're more of a threat to women than to men as far as sexual assault goes, so maybe they should just use the male washroom for the time being, unless there's some kind of neutral bathroom or they can just hold it in.

Mind you, there's literally no way to enforce anything like this, so I don't think the law or regulation if you will would matter in the long run.


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## QI 541 (Apr 19, 2016)

I personally go with "use whatever bathroom you look like".


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## Oglooger (Apr 19, 2016)

There are unisex bathrooms.
no one gives a shit, just do your business and leave, you will not get beaten up.
I'm sure you will find degenerates like you at the Walmart restrooms so you will feel like home there.


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## bradsternum (Apr 21, 2016)

People should stop being so weird about how and where they shit, on both sides of the argument.


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## AnOminous (Apr 21, 2016)

bradsternum said:


> People should stop being so weird about how and where they shit, on both sides of the argument.



India is right, we should just have designated shitting streets and do away with public restrooms, they only cause strife.


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## AlephOne2Many (Apr 21, 2016)

Sometimes it's better if you just hold your shit in long enough so when you do your business, it comes out as a huge, perfectly smooth log that would appear impossible to flush.

It doesn't require a gender-specific bathrooms.


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## Steve Mayers (Apr 21, 2016)

Just use whatever bathroom you feel most comfortable using. The whole men using it to molest young girls argument is nothing more than the latest rehash of the old and untrue gays are pedophiles bullshit.


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## The Knife (Apr 21, 2016)

There's also the matter that the NC law as written is unenforceable. Police have not been given instructions on what to do about this law and several police reps interviewed have said that in most cases, the best they can do is ask people to leave--and they're not even sure they can do that unless they're physically on the scene when the event occurs, since people can pee a lot faster than an officer can be dispatched. They don't have the manpower to assign officers to every bathroom where a violation could potentially take place. They've also not been instructed on how to determine whether or not the law's even been broken--do you check their ID or do a crotch-grab or what? They're not even sure whether or not this means they can physically enter a bathroom. If NC was actually concerned with a crime being committed, you'd think they'd bring their officers up to speed, but they haven't. This is not a law meant to protect anyone or to prevent any crime; it's a law that uses public policy to make a moral statement. 

It's also a backdoor bill: tacked onto the bathroom bill was another bill forbidding city governments from setting their own minimum wages. The Bathroom Bill itself is probably going to get shot down in a higher court, but the minimum wage law will remain. When it happens, the NC elected officials will get exactly what they wanted out of this: the chance to look pious and righteous about protecting women and children from the scary homogays, and a law screwing over minimum wage workers. There is absolutely no loss for them.


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## Save Goober (Apr 21, 2016)

It's kinda SJWish, but someone made the point that the government can barely prevent real men from assaulting women, so going overboard trying to prevent fake men from assaulting them is kind of dumb. 
I don't think it's really an issue. I've been in a few unisex bathrooms and that's not a big deal so I don't see why this is really.


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## Billy_Sama (Apr 21, 2016)

I got a solution, just have no more public bathrooms anymore. The only choice people will has to defecate at is in a bush or the street thus not having the need to have gendered bathrooms.


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## Jacquetta (Apr 21, 2016)

I don't really give a fuck whether the person in the stall next to me is trans or not, to be honest. Pretty sure most trans people just want to take a leak too, not make everyone hold hands and sing kumbayah.


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## *Asterisk* (Apr 21, 2016)

I oppose letting people use restrooms of their opposite gender when they don't bothering trying to pass or when they're doing it for the sexual thrill, but that doesn't mean any government should pass laws which are either unenforceable in a practical way or which would be so horrible if enforced they'd leave us worse off than before their implementation. If someone's already passing, it won't be an issue. If they aren't, how the hell is this supposed to preemptively stop them unless you make enforcement so punitive, reactionary, and Orwellian that you just make things worse? It's like trying to cure a hangnail by amputating your arm at the shoulder.

Not to mention that issues like this can already be dealt with easily enough without having to call the cops by beating up the retarded translatin@ who's been staying in the girls shitter at the local homeless-teen shelter for the past four hours: you beat the dogshit out of the sons of bitches.


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## Mrs Paul (Apr 23, 2016)

I wonder how the people behind this law are going to react when this dude walks into the ladies room.  

Honestly, what do these guys think goes on in a ladies room?  Nobody's getting naked -- unlike men, women do their business inside stalls.  You also notice no one mentions young _boys_ being molested.  As long as you flush and don't make a mess, I honestly do not give a shit.  (No pun intended.)

As far as unisex restrooms -- that might be practical for parents.  That way you don't have t worry about bringing your kid into the opposite sex bathroom.


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## Ponderous Pillock (Apr 25, 2016)

Thing is, Ghost was hilariously right about how stupid the law was. If you pass. Who the fuck is going to challenge or stop you? Someone like Buck isn't going to be yelled at or called out by someone. 

Actual trans people are 9/10 not going to be challenged because... what kind of utter hilarious embarrassment will the establishment suffer by accidentally rounding on some ugly chick or effeminate guy? 

They'd kick off to the tune of a free meal or drinks, if it happens often enough (or the story of it does anyway) then various places will stop trying to enforce it.

The fact is these laws are unenforceable, and the people writing them damn well know it. They're written to allay fears of crazed voting blocks that they want to secure, in this case it's the evangelists who wouldn't piss on a trans person if they were on fire.


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## Trickie (Apr 25, 2016)

Sheikh_Speare said:


> The state ordinance still allows transwomen who legally had their birth certificates changed to use the women's room



There are several states such as Ohio, Kansas, Idaho and Tennessee that do not allow you to change your birth certificate. Even the ones that do often have surgery requirements, so if you're still transitioning and are saving up for your surgeries, you're SOL there.


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## Joan Nyan (Apr 25, 2016)

Trickie said:


> There are several states such as Ohio, Kansas, Idaho and Tennessee that do not allow you to change your birth certificate. Even the ones that do often have surgery requirements, so if you're still transitioning and are saving up for your surgeries, you're SOL there.


The idea of being able to change your birth certificate seems ridiculous to me. It's a record of the circumstances of your birth, you can't just retcon out parts you don't like and pretend you were born differently.


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## autisticdragonkin (Apr 25, 2016)

Jon-Kacho said:


> The idea of being able to change your birth certificate seems ridiculous to me. It's a record of the circumstances of your birth, you can't just retcon out parts you don't like and pretend you were born differently.


I do think that they should be able to change their gender on their driver's licenses but with some indication that they are trans on it in order to help ER doctors


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## Trickie (Apr 25, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> I do think that they should be able to change their gender on their driver's licenses but with some indication that they are tranny on it in order to help ER doctors



Okay, but an ER doctor isn't going to go looking into a patient's wallet unless they know that there's information in there that they need, right? You don't want to suture a patient's wounds unless you know whether to make them into girl stitches or boy stitches, afterall. 

We should have something that can be worn on clothing instead. Like a badge in the shape of a pink triangle or something, just as a random example.


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## Mrs Paul (Apr 25, 2016)

There are a lot of trans people out there who pass pretty well -- I mean, unless they tell you they're trans, you wouldn't even know.  So I'll bet a lot of people have shared bathrooms with trans people already, without even knowing it. 

And anyone who's ever been in a lady's room can tell you, it's not _that_ easy to spy on someone in a stall.  You'd either have to lay on the floor, or if you wanted to peek over the stall, you'd have to stand on top of the toilet.  And even then you'd have to be pretty tall.  It'd be pretty easy to get caught.  Otherwise, all you're gonna see is a bunch of closed stalls and a bunch of women washing up and fixing their hair and make-up.

I'm starting to wonder what kind of bathrooms these people have been visiting.


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## Surtur (Apr 25, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> There are a lot of tranny people out there who pass pretty well -- I mean, unless they tell you they're tranny, you wouldn't even know.  So I'll bet a lot of people have shared bathrooms with tranny people already, without even knowing it.
> 
> And anyone who's ever been in a lady's room can tell you, it's not _that_ easy to spy on someone in a stall.  You'd either have to lay on the floor, or if you wanted to peek over the stall, you'd have to stand on top of the toilet.  And even then you'd have to be pretty tall.  It'd be pretty easy to get caught.  Otherwise, all you're gonna see is a bunch of closed stalls and a bunch of women washing up and fixing their hair and make-up.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder what kind of bathrooms these people have been visiting.



Its about starting a moral panic, great for getting people to vote along certain lines.


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## AnOminous (Apr 25, 2016)

One solution is just take off those male/female things on the doors and just indicate whether the bathroom has urinals or diaper changing stations or other amenities and let people go wherever they want.


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## KingGeedorah (Apr 26, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> One solution is just take off those male/female things on the doors and just indicate whether the bathroom has urinals or diaper changing stations or other amenities and let people go wherever they want.


Seriously. Like hasn't everybody walked in on someone using the toilet by accident once in their life(friend,family,stranger, sexual partner). Most of the time, people will be embarrassed and leave. Obviously I'm talking about smaller bathrooms, but even in larger commercial retailer bathrooms, I feel like taking a piss in public is awkward enough. I'm not going to stare at another person and wonder about their gender while in the act.


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## Hanamura (Apr 26, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> One solution is just take off those male/female things on the doors and just indicate whether the bathroom has urinals or diaper changing stations or other amenities and let people go wherever they want.


This.
I see plenty of guys who have to go into a female restroom just to access the baby changing station because they don't have one in the guy's side.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Apr 26, 2016)

I question how much it is the responsibility of the healthy population to play along with mental illness or delusion.
There is a reasonable argument that, in the absence of some sort of effective therapy or medication, that allowing an individual to "transition" or live their life pretending to be the opposite sex may be healthier for them, but I think allowing anybody to enter any bathroom may set a bad precedent as far as how society deals with mental illness.
It is indeed the socially polite thing, to play along with, or make allowances for individuals with handicaps, but there are of course limits to how much we allow an unhealthy individual to disrupt societal infrastructure before they are removed or punished.

The objective of separate bathrooms here is the sexual privacy and safety of the female population, who have less of a capacity to physically defend themselves from sexual assault.
This doesn't mean a bathroom is a magical shield but it is an instant identifier of a ill-intent if a male intrudes upon that privacy.
I understand that female-to-male transgender person does not intend to do any harm, and may have no sexual capacity to, but there is no easily visible distinction between a transgender person who may be a sexual threat or not.
This identification of an intrusion is voided by presence of a transgender individual.

I would propose that all transgender individuals(ftm and mtf) be asked to use the Men's restroom.
Obviously, it's a fucking bathroom, and it's not like there are policemen patrolling them, so if you're passing you're going to get away with it, but if your presence is enough to make other individuals feel unsafe, that you simply defer to the Men's, and that if you refuse, there be some form of punishment.

I don't think there should be any real intent to normalize transexuality as an identity.
We've already seen tremendous growth in a population that at least identifies as trans over the past 30 years, and I wonder how much of that is fashion or fetishism or the enabling of mental unfitness.
The normalization of transexuality is often compared to the normalization of homosexuality but I see a dramatic distinction between both the satisfaction of their desires and the burden they place upon society.
Where a homosexual individual can satisfy the desire of having sex with a member of the same sex, and transgender individual can never truly be the opposite sex, as simply as the fact that you cannot change a Y chromosome to an X.
Beyond this, where homosexual behavior can be actualized and satisfied on an internal level, transexuality is oriented around the external validation of their sexual identity.
A homosexual man only has to come to terms with himself and act upon this desire, but a transgender individual seeks to be seen by others as their preferred sex.
Where homosexual behavior is localized to the privacy of their bedroom or social circles, transexuality invades upon the sexual privacy and safety of mentally healthy individuals in public.

People of course have the righteous freedom to dress and act as they like within the boundaries of the law, but this doesn't mean they are free from judgement for their behavior, nor that they can deny their own physical biology.

It is not mentally healthy if you cannot emotionally come to terms with the reality you will never be the opposite sex, and it is not necessarily society's responsibility to cater to that delusion.
This is a burden that transgender people should take upon themselves, and simply go in the sexually accurate bathroom.
I have to stress again, if using the bathroom of your biological sex is so intensely traumatic or upsetting, you must understand you are not mentally fit.


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## autisticdragonkin (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> I question how much it is the responsibility of the healthy population to play along with mental illness or delusion.
> There is a reasonable argument that, in the absence of some sort of effective therapy or medication, that allowing an individual to "transition" or live their life pretending to be the opposite sex may be healthier for them, but I think allowing anybody to enter any bathroom may set a bad precedent as far as how society deals with mental illness.
> It is indeed the socially polite thing, to play along with, or make allowances for individuals with handicaps, but there are of course limits to how much we allow an unhealthy individual to disrupt societal infrastructure before they are removed or punished.
> 
> ...


I don't think transsexualism is a legitimate condition but I think this is such a minor issue that nobody should care. Plus there is no way to enforce this bill anyways


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## Mesh Gear Fox (Apr 26, 2016)

Trickie said:


> Okay, but an ER doctor isn't going to go looking into a patient's wallet unless they know that there's information in there that they need, right?



The only time it would be really relevant is if there was some major genital/lower abdominal injury.


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## The Great Chandler (Apr 26, 2016)

This is literally gonna kill Pat McCorey's reelection.


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## KingGeedorah (Apr 27, 2016)

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...e-refuse-to-believe-she-is-woman-female-video

Glad to see the police keeping the homo menace at bay. Policing bathrooms totally doesn't cause more problems then it solves.


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## Ruin (Apr 27, 2016)

KingGeedorah said:


> http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...e-refuse-to-believe-she-is-woman-female-video
> 
> Glad to see the police keeping the homo menace at bay. Policing bathrooms totally doesn't cause more problems then it solves.



I said this in chat the very first day the law passed. It won't be repealed because of trans people protesting but when terfs and butch lesbians start throwing a bitch fit.


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## KatsuKitty (Apr 28, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> It is not mentally healthy if you cannot emotionally come to terms with the reality you will never be the opposite sex, and it is not necessarily society's responsibility to cater to that delusion.



I'm not quite sure you're aware of what a delusion actually is. Dysphoria is not a delusion. Trans people are well-aware they're born the opposite sex.

In radically simplified terms, dysphoria is basically negative signaling to an "opposite-sexed brain". You're missing this, or the presence of that feels alien. I've heard of trans people who tie their genitals to ceiling fans and leap off the bed. Delusional people would outright deny they even had the wrong genitals.

So no, we're not "catering to a delusion", we're acknowledging that these people are what they are. This is a finding arrived at via close evaluation by a professional, it's not just a mere declaration that someone chooses. It's certainly easy to think that with transtrenders, though. They're in for a nasty surprise when they try so hard to be trans but aren't.

Gender dysphoria is the "mental illness", a term people seem to bandy about as an insult more than what it actually means in reference to being trans.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Apr 28, 2016)

KatsuKitty said:


> Dysphoria is not a delusion. tranny people are well-aware they're born the opposite sex.



It probably wouldn't help anything to get too much into semantics, but this is interesting and would be helpful to clarify.

If a transgender people are able to acknowledge they cannot physically be the opposite sex, why then is there any conflict?
This seems like an explicit admission of their own understanding of the issue, and yet they expect people to respond to some assuredly real but unquantifiable discomfort?
That the issue is not their own incapacity to understand, but that it simply makes them feel bad? 
This seems even less justifiable to me, that the whole world should be their "safe space".

The solution is simple. Don't be a whinybaby.
There are things in this world that cause me intense discomfort, so I avoid them, or in the instances where I must face them I simply suck it up and do them.
It doesn't even begin to occur to me that the infrastructure of society should change to suit my whim, that I should have the right to violate the privacy of others, nor that I would be justified in saying so. I am fully aware that this discomfort is irrational, and I fully assume the burden of that because the issue is entirely localized within me.
The world doesn't move for me or my problems, I get out of its way.

I understand this is a larger issue in regards to mental health, in more instances than just gender dysphoria. 
Another example would be depression, which is notably difficult for other unaffected individuals to understand.
And yet, there is still no pretense that society should move for depressed individuals.
We understand that they are afflicted, but not how the affliction feels, and yet at the point where it influences there capacity to function in society, that individual is a burden.

If you can acknowledge it's an illness, a mental illness, but still want to be judged as a functional member of society, the weight of that illness is to be placed on your shoulders.

On the other hand, there are transgender people who truly believe themselves to be the opposite sex.
They say they were "born a woman" or a man. It may not be fair to compare, but Brianna Wu very easily described his childhood self as a little girl.
They respond to the reality of their sex with anger. To be reminded of that reality can create intense anxiety.
This is the basis of delusion, the honest belief that they are the opposite sex despite the physical reality of what they are.
Not simply acting or playing pretend or dressing up as, but believe themselves to be the opposite sex.


----------



## KatsuKitty (Apr 28, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> On the other hand, there are transgender people who truly believe themselves to be the opposite sex.
> They say they were "born a woman" or a man. It may not be fair to compare, but Brianna Wu very easily described his childhood self as a little girl.
> They respond to the reality of their sex with anger. To be reminded of that reality can create intense anxiety.
> This is the basis of delusion, the honest belief that they are the opposite sex despite the physical reality of what they are.
> Not simply acting or playing pretend or dressing up as, but believe themselves to be the opposite sex.



Brianna Wu is a rather terrible example of most trans people. She pretends she's cis because she doesn't want to acknowledge she's trans. _That_ is delusional. I can name so many other things about her that make her a train wreck; she just happens to be a trans train wreck.

The vast majority of us make no bones about it because yeah, we were born the wrong sex and nothing will change that. If you can't face that reality then you need better coping mechanisms. But that doesn't mean we're defined by our bodies, we're defined by our brains, which is who we actually are. And that's why people make reference to _gender identity_ instead of sex; for that concept you want to think "brain sex". For trans people, the two are incongruent; this is the essence of the condition.


----------



## Puppet Pal Clem (Apr 28, 2016)

KatsuKitty said:


> The vast majority of us make no bones about it because yeah, we were born the wrong sex and nothing will change that.



Then why is this an issue?
Just go in the bathroom defined by your biological sex.


----------



## KatsuKitty (Apr 28, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> Then why is this an issue?
> Just go in the bathroom defined by your biological sex.



1) Trans women face the same assaults and grevious bodily harm at the hands of men
2) Trans men shouldn't be using the women's room around little girls for that reason
3) It doesn't have to be as retarded as "letting people choose their bathroom", which is the false narrative that SJWs are pushing and that others are (understandably) pushing back against. Nobody is asking that male-presenting cis men should be allowed to use the women's room because they "choose" it...except perhaps SJWs.

I think Ghost said it best. Nobody's going to bitch if you pass. If someone sees a lumbering CWC or Stefonknee using the restroom, they have a decent case because this person is so obviously not trans. Nobody wants men in the women's restroom. Trans women (who go through the treatment and make the effort) aren't men if you're talking about gender, and they _especially_ are not more of a danger to women than other women.

(That being said, just let private businesses decide how to run their own bathrooms. As usual, we're complicating the matter by begging Big Government to shape our social life.)


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Apr 28, 2016)

KatsuKitty said:


> Nobody's going to bitch if you pass.



This isn't legally definable in any useful way that wouldn't be interpreted as discrimination.
At best it would be subject to how comfortable women feel around other transgenders in the bathroom, defining whether or not a transgender person could use the restroom, which is silly in its own way and gives an individual too much power over another.

Not that it should be some matter of law in the first place, but trans-activists made it an issue, and now its on the national circuit.
So fun times over, pull out your birth certificates, go in the restroom defined by your chromosomes, and "man-up".


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## KatsuKitty (Apr 28, 2016)

It's only an issue because the Civil Rights Act gave people the mistaken impression for 50 years, that government has the right to tell businesses how to run if it involves "discrimination".

The real solution, as always, is leave it up to the people. There will always be an open business that doesn't discrimate against blacks, muslims, gays, or trannies. People will go to the establishments they feel is best for them. I discuss what businesses should do, not what they should forced to do.


----------



## Hanamura (Apr 28, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> Then why is this an issue?
> Just go in the bathroom defined by your biological sex.


It's not that easy for a passing tranny, especially one who doesn't want to blurt out to strangers in the bathroom about their predicament.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Apr 28, 2016)

KatsuKitty said:


> It's only an issue because the Civil Rights Act gave people the mistaken impression for 50 years, that government has the right to tell businesses how to run if it involves "discrimination".
> 
> The real solution, as always, is leave it up to the people. There will always be an open business that doesn't discrimate against blacks, muslims, gays, or trannies. People will go to the establishments they feel is best for them. I discuss what businesses should do, not what they should forced to do.



I feel like we agree, but not in a way that more than 50% of the populace would acknowledge as an acceptable resolution.


----------



## KatsuKitty (Apr 28, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> I feel like we agree, but not in a way that more than 50% of the populace would acknowledge as an acceptable resolution.



Isn't libertarianism great?


----------



## Marvin (Apr 28, 2016)

KatsuKitty said:


> It's only an issue because the Civil Rights Act gave people the mistaken impression for 50 years, that government has the right to tell businesses how to run if it involves "discrimination".
> 
> The real solution, as always, is leave it up to the people. There will always be an open business that doesn't discrimate against blacks, muslims, gays, or trannies. People will go to the establishments they feel is best for them. I discuss what businesses should do, not what they should forced to do.


The government already has the right to tell businesses how to run in many issues. Like sanitation in restaurants, for example. There certainly are businesses that will cater to blacks, but it's a lower quality selection. Black people are kept in poverty because of these sort of things.


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## Trickie (Apr 28, 2016)

Generally speaking, society should change in the light of new evidence. If we've somehow decided that black people are too stupid to vote, and therefore need to take a rigged literacy test in order to prove their competence, then we need to change that. 

Somewhere down the line, for reasons that aren't entirely unreasonable, society had decided that genitals and chromosomes are the end-all-be-all of gender, despite not knowing all too much about how sex chromosomes actually work. That incorrect assumption has finally caught up to us, and things like bathroom bill debacles are now the result. This is what comes from new information. It has very little to do with making the rest of the general public cowtow to the sensitivities of a small group of people.


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## Clown Doll (Apr 30, 2016)

I believe that in the case of privately owned businesses, the decision should be left up for the owners of the establishments so that they can, if they want to, allow transgender people to use whatever they choose, but also they can choose to accommodate people who are concerned about the abuse of these privileges and kick out fetishists like Jordman without having to fear lawsuits ending them and their business.


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## Henry Bemis (Apr 30, 2016)

What's more morally repugnant: Anti-LGBT legislation proposed because its backers believe it to be a mere lifestyle, and an abhorrent one, at that; or anti-LGBT legislation passed because its backers can't govern worth a shit, so they're willing to fuck around with some of their constituents' lives just to keep the pearl-clutchers' jimmies rustled?


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## AnOminous (Apr 30, 2016)

Henry Bemis said:


> What's more morally repugnant: Anti-LGBT legislation proposed because its backers believe it to be a mere lifestyle, and an abhorrent one, at that; or anti-LGBT legislation passed because its backers can't govern worth a shit, so they're willing to fuck around with some of their constituents' lives just to keep the pearl-clutchers' jimmies rustled?



I'd say the latter, because the former are, at least, honest and sincere in their beliefs.

It's sort of like the difference between an honest Klansman and someone who just espouses racism for political advantage.  The former, you can probably trust to keep his word, at least.


----------



## Ponderous Pillock (Apr 30, 2016)

I'd second the latter too. The people who operate on that basis are snakes through and through and would probably sell their grandmothers if it meant extra votes.

The people who think it's "just a phase" might be misguided and, in my opinion wrong, but at least they hold that belief sincerely.


----------



## AnOminous (Apr 30, 2016)

Ponderous Pillock said:


> I'd second the latter too. The people who operate on that basis are snakes through and through and would probably sell their grandmothers if it meant extra votes.
> 
> The people who think it's "just a phase" might be misguided and, in my opinion wrong, but at least they hold that belief sincerely.



Another thing is the sincere racists may eventually realize they're wrong and reform themselves.  The person who was never acting according to moral principles in the first place is not going to start.


----------



## Ponderous Pillock (Apr 30, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Another thing is the sincere racists may eventually realize they're wrong and reform themselves.  The person who was never acting according to moral principles in the first place is not going to start.



I've both met such reformed people and they've been on TV for such things. It's fascinating when people realize that they were wrong with their perceptions and when people on both sides are willing to help out.


----------



## Hanamura (Apr 30, 2016)

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/...es-dallas-woman-using-womens-restroom-8259104

It's okay for a guy to enter the girl's room if he suspects a tranny entering it, apparently.


----------



## Trickie (Apr 30, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> I'd say the latter, because the former are, at least, honest and sincere in their beliefs.
> 
> It's sort of like the difference between an honest Klansman and someone who just espouses racism for political advantage.  The former, you can probably trust to keep his word, at least.



It really really depends on what exactly you're trusting them to do. Sure, the racist-only-for-political-advantage guy is less trustworthy overall, but if you're trusting someone to not be a racist asshole, the Klansman is not your best bet. The racist politician guy might at least avoid doing something racist for fear of backlash.


----------



## on a serious note (Apr 30, 2016)

I am not an expert or anything but I think that these bills are going to backfire very badly


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## Hanamura (May 3, 2016)

http://www.queerty.com/club-ordered...-by-bouncers-for-using-mens-restroom-20160404

Jeez, it's one thing to kick someone out of a bathroom, it's another thing to assault them. First time I heard of trans men being affected by all this bathroom panic bullshit.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 3, 2016)

I keep hearing spooky stories about how men's bathroom are a danger for trans women and how they get beat up and harassed, etc... Are there any numbers or even legit news stories of trans women being assaulted for/while using the men's bathroom?

It's like one of these '1 in 5 trans women get murdered' statistic when it's about 25 a year out of a 700,000 population and its overwhelmingly black/latino trannies who are prostitutes and as a result of the latter than the former, isn't it?


----------



## Trapped_Fairy (May 3, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> I keep hearing stories about how men's bathroom are a danger for tranny women and how they get beat up and harassed, etc... Are there any numbers or even _stories_ of tranny women being assaulted for/while using the men's bathroom?
> 
> It's like one of these '1 in 5 tranny women get murdered' statistic when it's about 25 a year out of a 700,000 population and its overwhelmingly black/latino trannies who are prostitutes and as a result of the latter than the former, isn't it?


Actually, in some areas it's more common then you'd think. The whole 'let's beat the queer out of 'em' attitude still pervades plenty of the rural south. A transwoman back when I was in high school got beaten up in the boys' room and the people who beat her up were openly bragging about it the next day so yes, it most certainly does happen. A major reason you don't see too many stories on it is that trans people weren't too popular in the media until rather recently, so the chances of a news station picking up the story and actually reporting on it were pretty slim.


----------



## Trickie (May 3, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Are there any numbers or even _stories_ of tranny women being assaulted for/while using the men's bathroom?





Internet War Criminal said:


> _*I keep hearing stories*_ about how men's bathroom are a danger for tranny women



???  ???


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## AnOminous (May 3, 2016)

If you just renamed bathrooms "rape rooms" everything that happened in one would be normal.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 3, 2016)

Trickie said:


> ???  ???



The former are _news _stories while the latter are campfire stories about how 20 trannies are brutally murdered every hour when they go take a pee in the men's room


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## Wallace (May 4, 2016)

You can’t make society behave morally by passing laws. Prohibition didn’t make alcohol go away. All of our anti-drug laws haven’t put much of a dent in America’s thirst for drugs.

There’s no law that’s going to stop a creeper from being a creep. Like KatsuKitty said upthread, the question is, are these laws worded in a way that creepers will be able to successfully use them as shields in court?


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## Internet War Criminal (May 4, 2016)

Wallace said:


> You can’t make society behave morally by passing laws. Prohibition didn’t make alcohol go away. All of our anti-drug laws haven’t put much of a dent in America’s thirst for drugs.
> 
> There’s no law that’s going to stop a creeper from being a creep. Like KatsuKitty said upthread, the question is, are these laws worded in a way that creepers will be able to successfully use them as shields in court?



Trannies are maybe 0.1% of the population while transtrenders and nonbinary tumblrites are another 0.1-2%

Why should we change our laws and make it way easier for perverts and creeps (which include a large segment of that .3% as documented here) in order to accommodate a ridiculously tiny segment of the population?


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## Wallace (May 5, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Trannies are maybe 0.1% of the population while transtrenders and nonbinary tumblrites are another 0.1-2%
> 
> Why should we change our laws and make it way easier for perverts and creeps (which include a large segment of that .3% as documented here) in order to accommodate a ridiculously tiny segment of the population?



Creepers are gonna creep, regardless of the law.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 5, 2016)

So why should make it easier for them? Especially when such a large swath of trannies are creep with fucked up fetishes themselves as documented on this board?


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## Surtur (May 5, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> So why should make it easier for them? Especially when such a large swath of trannies are creep with fucked up fetishes themselves as documented on this board?


There is no proof that these laws as passed elsewhere contribute to sexual assualt. Also, lol at thinking cows represent the standard for anything.


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## Cosmos (May 5, 2016)

This entire "debate" is really dumb and makes the US look stupider and more intolerant than it actually is. 

First off, there's no way to actually enforce the bill. To actually enforce it, you'd need to hire people to stand outside of every bathroom and make every person show their ID, which is the biggest waste of time, money, and resources _ever. _

Second, does anyone actually pay attention to other people in the bathroom? I mean, have you ever _really_ studied the people who are in there with you? No, because that would be fucking awkward and weird. If a transwoman was in the bathroom with me, I wouldn't notice because I don't intensely study the women who are peeing with me (Well, I'd probably notice if a transwoman was like Chris or Phil, but that's extremely unlikely).

And finally, if someone is being a creep in the bathroom, there are already laws that deal with creeps in the bathroom. We don't need another, stupider law.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 5, 2016)

Surtur said:


> There is no proof that these laws as passed elsewhere contribute to sexual assualt. Also, lol at thinking cows represent the standard for anything.



Actually there have been plenty of incidents where perverts using those laws to do just that in the last couple of months since they passed


----------



## Surtur (May 5, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Actually there have been plenty of incidents where perverts using those laws to do just that in the last couple of months since they passed


lol, there are laws protecting transgender bathroom rights going back more than a decade. Also, the daily caller, kek. Also "plenty" means only one now.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 5, 2016)

Surtur said:


> lol, there are laws protecting transgender bathroom rights going back more than a decade. Also, the daily caller, kek. Also "plenty" means only one now.



We are talking specifically about those laws that allows anyone to use the bathroom they identify with that day. And there are plenty of stories like that, I listen to talk radio and every day or two they highlight a new story of a pervert caught in toilets or locker rooms who get away with it because 'no officer I identify as a woman I belong here'


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## Marvin (May 5, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> We are talking specifically about those laws that allows anyone to use the bathroom they identify with that day. And there are plenty of stories like that, I listen to talk radio and every day or two they highlight a new story of a pervert caught in toilets or locker rooms who get away with it because 'no officer I identify as a woman I belong here'


Being in the restroom shouldn't be the crime.

Like, unisex bathrooms in the first place should be the norm.


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## KingGeedorah (May 6, 2016)

The obvious answer is to allow the trannies to use whichever bathroom they want.

However, we arm the children and teach them to shoot the fuck out of anyone who talks to them in the bathroom.

Problem solved?


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## Randy Lahey (May 9, 2016)

Trannies should just go live in the woods and shit with bears and the pope


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## AnOminous (May 9, 2016)

Randy Lahey said:


> Trannies should just go live in the woods and shit with bears and the pope



I know I never want to go into the bathroom to take a whiz and run into the Pope riding a bear, both of them completely covered in shit.


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## GS 281 (May 9, 2016)

It seems you are setting up more bad scenarios by sending a M2F transgender person into a men's room when they are dressed in a skirt and blouse than sending them into a women's room.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 9, 2016)

yawning sneasel said:


> It seems you are setting up more bad scenarios by sending a M2F transgender person into a men's room when they are dressed in a skirt and blouse than sending them into a women's room.



and yet all the stories i read of trannies assaulted in bathrooms happened in women's bathroom by some Janes who were not too happy some Dick decided to use their bathroom instead of the ones they should have been


----------



## QI 541 (May 9, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> and yet all the stories i read of trannies assaulted in bathrooms happened in women's bathroom by some Janes who were not too happy some Dick decided to use their bathroom instead of the ones they should have been



This is why I'm of the opinion that you should use whichever bathroom you look like.


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## Internet War Criminal (May 9, 2016)

raymond said:


> This is why I'm of the opinion that you should use whichever bathroom you look like.



... because you want _more_ mtf trannies assaulted by women in bathrooms? I mean there's already clips4sale if that's what you're looking for


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## Mrs Paul (May 24, 2016)

KingGeedorah said:


> The obvious answer is to allow the trannies to use whichever bathroom they want.
> 
> However, we arm the children and teach them to shoot the fuck out of anyone who talks to them in the bathroom.
> 
> Problem solved?



You laugh, but a similiar idea was actually proposed.  (Giving pepper spray to students -- I can't see THAT backfiring!)


----------



## Sweet and Savoury (May 26, 2016)

I don't understand all hub-bub about these trannies issues. 

They compose less then 1% of the U.S. Population. I think it was like 0.2% self identified as trans-sexual but there are pre-Tumblr numbers so who the fuck knows what it would be with all these new trannies. 

If you work the numbers you have a better chance of being hit by lightning then being in a restroom with a tranny. 

Talk about a lot of shit for little reason.


----------



## Shokew (May 27, 2016)

NC and any other states doing this are going to be barren wastelands for driving business, commerce, and jobs away over shit like this (if it gos too far, of course - and some of these states are nice to visit - not live, visit, sometimes, too - or am I just being naive?). 

I've proudly come to realize I could care less about these Tumblrfucks being tumblrfucks (like these people getting angry over this are - if only because this was never a huge issue BEFORE.). What worries me is all the constituents of these shitty state govt's hurting them over shit like this. UGH. And to think, every now and then, I like visiting NC, just for shits and gigs. Not so much if they're ain't much to do, due to lack of things to do there (thanks to likely bankruptive BS like this if it goes on for too long), honestly...


----------



## autisticdragonkin (May 27, 2016)

I think that it is terrible how we have this double standard where not allowing transgender washrooms will cause de facto sanctions on a southern state but killing homosexuals won't cause it if you are a muslim country


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## Lackadaisy (May 27, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> I think that it is terrible how we have this double standard where not allowing transgender washrooms will cause de facto sanctions on a southern state but killing homosexuals won't cause it if you are a muslim country



Muslims have sweet sweet oil though.


----------



## Joan Nyan (May 27, 2016)

Jon-Kacho said:


> Just make all restrooms unisex and be done with it.


I _may _have changed my mind about this. While unisex toilets are okay, I think there are legitimate reasons for also wanting restrooms that are only for one biological sex or the other. Regardless, I don't see how this is an issue that really needs government involvement.


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## Sweet and Savoury (May 27, 2016)

It is now illegal and punishable by a fine upto $15,000 to not refer to a person by thier chosen gender in NYC

Swear to god!  They released a list of 32 "genders" which are now legally protected. 


I wonder if this means every bussiness has to have 32 restrooms so no one is forced to use one that offends their gender?

http://www.mrctv.org/blog/bill-de-blasio-mandates-nyc-businesses-acknowledge-31-gender-pronouns


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## AnOminous (May 28, 2016)

Sweet and Savoury said:


> It is now illegal and punishable by a fine upto $15,000 to not refer to a person by thier chosen gender in NYC
> 
> Swear to god!  They released a list of 32 "genders" which are now legally protected.
> 
> ...



I'm sure this won't result in nearly immediate litigation and be roundly mocked throughout the entire country and end up with DeBlasio being a one-term loser.


----------



## The Great Chandler (May 28, 2016)

Sweet and Savoury said:


> It is now illegal and punishable by a fine upto $15,000 to not refer to a person by thier chosen gender in NYC
> 
> Swear to god!  They released a list of 32 "genders" which are now legally protected.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of going to the Big Apple. But now with that law put into place, I don't know if I should go there.


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## AnOminous (May 28, 2016)

I'm pretty sure this will be thrown out.  It's enforced speech.  It's forcing people to abandon speaking the English language and instead to speak some bizarre alien pidgin.  The English language has only three genders for pronouns, not thirty-fucking-one.

Someone and probably a bunch of someones are going to say fuck this shit and refuse to do it.

Or preemptively sue over it.

Commercial speech of the sort businesses engage in is subject to somewhat lessened free speech protections, but they can't just flat out force you to learn some made up language that they cobbled together in a drug binge.

I think Eugene Volokh best expresses the core legal problem with this regulation and why it is fundamentally abhorrent to free speech.

"So people can basically force us — on pain of massive legal liability — to say what they want us to say, whether or not we want to endorse the political message associated with that term, and whether or not we think it’s a lie."

More legal analysis here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-thats-the-pronoun-they-demand-that-you-use/

A specific example as to why being forced to use a fake made up pronoun is problematic:

"We have to use 'ze,' a made-up word that carries an obvious political connotation (endorsement of the “non-binary” view of gender).

[. . .]

We can’t be required to even display a license plate that says 'Live Free or Die' on our car, if we object to the message; that’s what the court held in _Wooley v. Maynard_ (197. But New York is requiring people to actually say words that convey a message of approval of the view that gender is a matter of self-perception rather than anatomy, and that, as to 'ze,' were deliberately created to convey that message."


----------



## Ntwadumela (May 28, 2016)

Lackadaisy said:


> Muslims have sweet sweet oil though.


Yep, we totes do. We need a backup commodity though in case it runs out.


----------



## Internet War Criminal (May 28, 2016)

I think you're being way too optimistic, @AnOminous. 

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but in today's climate? I think there are more chances that shit like this will spread than it does being reversed. 

After all a tranny teacher just got awarded $60,000 in Portland for being referred to by the wrong pronouns and the emotional damage it did to her. That ftm sure showed she has balls and can take it like the rest of the boys.


----------



## AnOminous (May 28, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> I think you're being way too optimistic, @AnOminous.
> 
> A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but in today's climate? I think there are more chances that shit like this will spread than it does being reversed.



31 genders isn't even something that has a serious chance.  That is laugh it out of court stupid.  It's really a matter of whether someone preemptively sues over its facial unconstitutionality or whether someone waits until this dipshit body actually fines someone over it.  In one case, it goes straight to court, in another, it goes to some administrative body, then to a low level court, then to an appeals court, then to the New York State Court of Appeals.

And that's assuming they don't take it to a federal court over the obvious U.S. Constitution issues.

These aren't people who just got on the bench yesterday.  Courts are inherently conservative and there is just no way this flies.

I'd trust Volokh's take on this.  He knows what the fuck he's talking about.


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## Ntwadumela (May 29, 2016)

If it's MtF and FtM transgender people, than that's fine I guess. But Demigirl/Demiboy/Genderqueer/RandomTumblrBS? That would be fucking stupid


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## Mrs Paul (Jun 1, 2016)

There was never a big issue about it before, but now all of a sudden, you have people freaking out, acting as "Bathroom Police", going after someone if they don't actually look like your idea of a man or a woman, etc.

At this point, I'm about ready to say screw it and peeing in a bucket.   I don't need someone spying on me through the doors to check and make sure I'm really a woman.  (Which has reportedly happened!  Thanks so much, NC!)

I mean, before that, the worst thing I had to deal with was some bitch who didn't bother to flush despite being on the rag.


----------



## ActualKiwi (Jun 1, 2016)

Ntwadumela said:


> If it's MtF and FtM transgender people, than that's fine I guess. But Demigirl/Demiboy/Genderqueer/RandomTumblrBS? That would be fucking stupid


You would end up with bathrooms bigger than most city blocks if you tried to accommodate all the little snowflakes


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 1, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> There was never a big issue about it before, but now all of a sudden, you have people freaking out, acting as "Bathroom Police", going after someone if they don't actually look like your idea of a man or a woman, etc.
> 
> At this point, I'm about ready to say screw it and peeing in a bucket.   I don't need someone spying on me through the doors to check and make sure I'm really a woman.  (Which has reportedly happened!  Thanks so much, NC!)
> 
> I mean, before that, the worst thing I had to deal with was some bitch who didn't bother to flush despite being on the rag.



Considering there are vastly more somewhat masculine looking women than there are trannies, blatant or otherwise, the effects of this law will mainly be felt by cisgender women being harassed by insane assholes.

So now women actually will be harassed in women's rooms thanks to these inbred hicks.


----------



## Shokew (Jun 1, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> There was never a big issue about it before, but now all of a sudden, you have people freaking out, acting as "Bathroom Police", going after someone if they don't actually look like your idea of a man or a woman, etc.
> 
> At this point, I'm about ready to say screw it and peeing in a bucket.   I don't need someone spying on me through the doors to check and make sure I'm really a woman.  (Which has reportedly happened!  Thanks so much, NC!)
> 
> I mean, before that, the worst thing I had to deal with was some bitch who didn't bother to flush despite being on the rag.



It's only a matter of time before innocent women get legit assaulted, OR WORSE, raped because of this 'law'. This wasn't just put in place to discriminate against LGBTQ - fuckers, after all. Hell, from the way I know this is turning out, it's much more sinister - this is just more attempts by people in power to discriminate against women in general for not 'respecting' these clearly theocratic - fascist fucks who think they're doing 'the Lord's will' on us unwilling folk who see how stupid this all is.


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## Male Idiot (Jun 3, 2016)

Give trans people their very own bathrooms, and the normals won't be triggered.


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## Cheeseburger Picnic (Jun 3, 2016)

I managed to get 5 people riled up at me last weekend at a party by suggesting that I don't love the idea of men being able to use women's restrooms. Not trannies, cis men. I didn't even suggest I thought my discomfort should be legislated, just that I'm not thrilled about the idea of increasing the odds of getting cornered alone in an enclosed space by a dude twice my size.

One person asked me if I'm uncomfortable with lesbians using women's restrooms, so I asked her about the statistical likelihood of getting raped by another woman (or a transgender woman for that matter) versus a heterosexual man. Never got an answer.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes.


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## Ruin (Jun 3, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Considering there are vastly more somewhat masculine looking women than there are trannies, blatant or otherwise, the effects of this law will mainly be felt by cisgender women being harassed by insane assholes.
> 
> So now women actually will be harassed in women's rooms thanks to these inbred hicks.



My sister got yelled at for using the women's room, she's cis and 6,2. Ever since the supreme court ruled on gay marriage assholes have been looking for a new moral panic they can incit.


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## Ruin (Jun 3, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> Is your sister tranny or cis?



Your reading comprehension needs work.


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## ActualKiwi (Jun 4, 2016)

Ruin said:


> You're reading comprehension needs work.


It's ADK, expecting reading comprehension or logic is illogical. Also, *your


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## Male Idiot (Jun 16, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> We need everyone to be able to use public washrooms for reasons explained in this video



India theme song.


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## Duck Duck TUUURN (Jun 19, 2016)

Cosmos said:


> Second, does anyone actually pay attention to other people in the bathroom? I mean, have you ever _really_ studied the people who are in there with you? No, because that would be fucking awkward and weird. If a transwoman was in the bathroom with me, I wouldn't notice because I don't intensely study the women who are peeing with me (Well, I'd probably notice if a transwoman was like Chris or Phil, but that's extremely unlikely).


In the midst of all this hullaballoo, this is the point that I rarely see expressed. What the flying fuck are people doing in restrooms besides shitting, washing their hands and getting the fuck out? In my long career in bodily waste excretion, I have never come across a naked person in a public restroom, ever. I have never struck up conversation, swapped business cards, proposed marriage... none of that shit, and I've never seen anyone else doing it either. 

It continues to baffle me how using the restroom is constantly painted as this deeply personal and sacred experience. Consider this scenerio: You're at an outdoor event, let's say the Gathering of the Juggalos or some shit like that where there's a row of portable toilets, each with a que. While you are in the portapotty doing your business, does the gender of the person next in line matter to you? I'd wager that most people would say no to that question because this situation happens every day at air shows and rock festivals, etc. So why is it such a vastly different situation when it comes to a stall in building?


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## Funnybone (Jun 19, 2016)

This is one of those situations where people get waaaay too emotional on an issue and throw all logic and counter-arguments out the window.

Neither side is really right or wrong with their discomfort. We live in an age where we have a fucking whole generation of Transtrenders (I know a lot IRL yuck) who consider their fashion phases a 'gender' and feel like they should proudly piss/shit in any bathroom they desire. A lot of those people are fucking mentally unstable and weird so it makes sense why people are uncomfortable with them. 

On the other hand there are actual trannies who go through dysphoria and are actually transitioning (though they aren't that fuckin common) who just want to feel normal.

I have been in bathrooms with bat shit crazy 'cis' women -- hell, one time a woman was going from stall to stall waving a knife underneath a door. She was actually a very attractive looking lady who you wouldn't suspect to be going to the Women's restrooms and brandishing a fucking bone cutting knife. But. She was. 
Another time I have had a crazy lady screaming that Ford motors was raping society... One who said something about aliens... ect.. I would trade my batshit ladies experience with a poser millennial in a heartbeat. 

Also I've already peed with real trannies. West Hollywood is full of them and they have all been harmless. So far.

It's one of those things that a law isn't fucking going to stop criminals or crazy people regardless. So who gives a shit.


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## AnOminous (Jun 19, 2016)

Duck Duck TUUURN said:


> In the midst of all this hullaballoo, this is the point that I rarely see expressed. What the flying fuck are people doing in restrooms besides shitting, washing their hands and getting the fuck out? In my long career in bodily waste excretion, I have never come across a naked person in a public restroom, ever. I have never struck up conversation, swapped business cards, proposed marriage... none of that shit, and I've never seen anyone else doing it either.



The noisier troons appear to make a huge production of being in there and just hang out until someone complains and then scream persecution.

Specifically this dude.

https://kiwifarms.net/threads/misty-lana-hill-brian-casey-pierce-diracdrynx.21067/


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## Ruin (Jun 20, 2016)

Lets let everyone use the bathroom of their choosing and if people are hanging around being creeps arrest them, just like we do now.

No need to reinvent the wheel here folks.


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## Mrs Paul (Jun 21, 2016)

Duck Duck TUUURN said:


> In the midst of all this hullaballoo, this is the point that I rarely see expressed. What the flying fuck are people doing in restrooms besides shitting, washing their hands and getting the fuck out?



Well, in the ladies room, we pervs check our hair and make-up! *gasp*


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## Duck Duck TUUURN (Jun 21, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> Well, in the ladies room, we pervs check our hair and make-up! *gasp*


Sure, I kinda' rolled that stuff into the "wash your hands" part. After you finish in the stall, you go to the sink and fix your makeup, straighten your toupee, pick your nose, whatever you gotta do... and get the fuck out. None of that stuff requires interacting with anybody else in the common area of the restroom, and by that time if your genitals aren't already covered with clothing then you are seriously fucking up the procedure.


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## Checkered Spotlight (Jun 26, 2016)

You can't really separate pervs based on gender. I've unfortunately known many incredibly pervy women, and I don't think kicking trannies out is going to stop them from watching you shit or molesting you in the locker room. 

If you're a tranny that actually transitioned or is in the process of transitioning and aren't a creep, go to the bathroom of your choice. I honestly don't give shit if you have a dick as long as you let me piss in peace.


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## Steve Mayers (Jul 12, 2016)

This is a rehash of old propaganda and nothing more. There is no "epidemic" of perverted men pretending to be women to rape women and girls. In the 1950's there existed this sort of anti-gay propaganda that the whole transgender bathroom issue largely resembles.


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## The Lizard Queen (Jul 13, 2016)

Transgender woman arrested for voyeurism in Target changing room

http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/13/t...ng-pictures-of-woman-in-target-dressing-room/


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## Without A Gout (Jul 16, 2016)

To be honest, there are FAR bigger problems in the world than which bathroom someone goes in. This is very, very minor in the scheme of things.

This is only really an issue for the transtrender "special snowflakes" that make a huge deal about being the opposite sex and trumpet whenever they use a different restroom.


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## IV 445 (Jul 16, 2016)

You know who are going to be the most common culprits to abuse this law? Amorous couples who want to get in a quickie in public. There are a few comfortable positions couples can make even in the tomb that is the public stall. And even if somebody's breeches get in a bunch over their sex, the two can make a discreet exit. By the time Miss Busybody talks complains to the manager and they come into the restroom, the guy or girl will be standing outside the stall, minding their own business while the other gets cleaned up. Hey it's not a crime to be waiting for your S.O. to poop is it? eff off.


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## ObongoTheCongoleseBongo (Jul 16, 2016)

Being transgender is a mental illness. Not that I hate transgenders or anything (in fact, I've known quite a few, and they all tended to be nice, if a bit too Tumblr-y for my tastes). However the way the (((media))) is promoting it is sickening, to say the least. Trannies shouldn't be ostracized, but neither should they be enabled so callously. Would you give alcohol to an alcoholic?


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## Stardust (Jul 20, 2016)

The horror of unisex bathrooms has been with me for decades, as my home only had one bathroom, and it was shared by men *AND* women!

I totally understand why sharing a bathroom may be a totally foreign concept to these people, except, well, I don't.


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## Duck Duck TUUURN (Jul 20, 2016)

The space between the main restroom door and the door of a stall is incapable of containing males and females at the same time for some reason that has yet to be explained.


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## OJ 473 (Jul 22, 2016)

I'm less concerned about sexual assault happening to me in a bathroom and more concerned about some fat unidentifiable thing spitting on or harassing me for being a 'cissie.'


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## Salzig (Jul 22, 2016)

I think that this issue is an example of bourgeois nationalism meant to divide and distract the American people into infighting ideological tribes.


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## Old Wizard (Dec 26, 2018)

I'm more worried about voyeurism than rape, tbh, and I'm sick of seeing Vox and other liberal media saying that it never happens.  It just makes them sound like they're covering something up as opposed to addressing the issue.


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## HG 400 (Dec 26, 2018)

Hortator said:


> There are a few comfortable positions couples can make even in the tomb that is the public stall.



Use the handicap stall, dummy.


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## PorcupineTree (Dec 26, 2018)

Lol, I had to get special training at work for pronoun usage when we started implementing these. I don't care. Actual trans people just want to mind their own business. 

What I really want are bathroom stalls without that one inch gap nonsense in the door so I don't have to worry about a pervy troon coming in to stare.


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## KiwiKritter (Dec 27, 2018)

Just let people piss where they want,  many countries have family/neutral bathrooms and its fine. If someone makes you uncomfortable go in a stall, if someone harasses you, report it or defend yourself.


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## White bubblegum (Dec 27, 2018)

If a troon wants to assault people in bathrooms, they're going to assault people in bathrooms-and other places- whether its legal or not. I don't see what the problem with trans people in bathrooms is as long as they're not swinging their dicks and tits all over the place. As for the children, I don't know about you guys but seeing public toilets full of shit and flies was way more traumatizing than seeing a chick in tacky clothes would've been.


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