# Addiction



## Mrs Paul (Sep 10, 2016)

I've got a long family history of alcoholism.  I lost my godmother to an infection related to alcolism (what really sucks is that she was that she only had started getting sober).  
People want to get high?  I'm all for legalizing pot.  But instead of criminalizing this shit, perhaps we should address it as the disorder that it truely is, rather than just toss people in jail.  

(I don't give a shit if I make a lolcow out of myself.  I'm terrified of becoming what my aunt was.


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## keksz (Sep 11, 2016)

That's rough, OP. As long as you learn from their mistakes and have the conviction not to go down the same path, chances are you'll do much better.

A friend of mine who was pretty hardcore at an young age told me back then: drugs are not the issue, the issue is whatever keeps brining you back into drugs. May sound cheap but it's so true.

Also a lot of illegal drugs out there are infinitely safer than tobacco and alcohol, in the least as far as addiction goes. Mushrooms and ganja, for example.


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## Kartoffel (Sep 11, 2016)

I always knew that if I didn't take an decisive anti-stance to certain substances I'd be in serious danger to become addicted. 
Yes, doing it this way is far easier than trying it with moderation, but when you have a personality that craves for control it is seriously the safer way to go.

Does your family also have a history of stuff like AD(H)D? Many substances can interfere with your brain chemistry and it's not that uncommon that people use these to medicate themselves unknowingly. Then it would be a lot healthier to get a proper diagnosis and take the right meds.


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## HG 400 (Sep 11, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> I've got a long family history of alcoholism.  I lost my godmother to an infection related to alcolism (what really sucks is that she was that she only had started getting sober).
> People want to get high?  I'm all for legalizing pot.  But instead of criminalizing this shit, perhaps we should address it as the disorder that it truely is, rather than just toss people in jail.
> 
> (I don't give a shit if I make a lolcow out of myself.  I'm terrified of becoming what my aunt was.



This is a great place to discuss your personal tragedies, please continue.


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## Pepsi-Cola (Sep 11, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> I lost my godmother to an infection related to alcolism


lol rekt


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## Mrs Paul (Sep 13, 2016)

I think it's more like, the last few times I got drunk, I got stinking, fucking, puking all over myself drunk.  I don't want that to fucking happen.

Seriously though, let's face it:  the way this country deals with drugs and addicts only makes the problem worse.  Some kid getting 20 years for selling cocaine?  There's something not right about that.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Sep 13, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> I've got a long family history of alcoholism.  I lost my godmother to an infection related to alcolism (what really sucks is that she was that she only had started getting sober).
> People want to get high?  I'm all for legalizing pot.  But instead of criminalizing this shit, perhaps we should address it as the disorder that it truely is, rather than just toss people in jail.
> 
> (I don't give a shit if I make a lolcow out of myself.  I'm terrified of becoming what my aunt was.


We need to start looking at why this happens and start looking at ways to prevent it. Catching an addiction before it becomes lethal is a lousy way to treat it.


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## Tragi-Chan (Sep 13, 2016)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> We need to start looking at why this happens and start looking at ways to prevent it. Catching an addiction before it becomes lethal is a lousy way to treat it.


The problem is, and this isn't limited to drugs or the USA, that a lot of governments think the best way to treat a problem is to take the easy road. Their thinking is that it's harder to deal with the social causes that drive people to drugs than it is to just chuck people in prison for possession and hope everyone else is scared straight.

I think proper education on drugs would help. I grew up in the UK, and the drug education I received was like something out of Reefer Madness. Heroin addicts were desperate smackheads, acid users were always jumping off buildings, and every urban legend and horror story was true. I assume it's not too different in the US. It just seems kind of immature to me.


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## AnOminous (Sep 13, 2016)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> We need to start looking at why this happens and start looking at ways to prevent it. Catching an addiction before it becomes lethal is a lousy way to treat it.



Because politicians always need something to distract from their own incompetence and corruption and blaming some group nobody likes anyway never gets you in trouble.


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## Tragi-Chan (Sep 13, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Because politicians always need something to distract from their own incompetence and corruption and blaming some group nobody likes anyway never gets you in trouble.


And of course, it creates an "us" and "them" narrative. "They" are not "us," so why bother helping them?


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## Picklepower (Sep 13, 2016)

Honey you need some Odoul's


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## Chicken Nugget Scoon (Sep 13, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> I've got a long family history of alcoholism.  I lost my godmother to an infection related to alcolism (what really sucks is that she was that she only had started getting sober).
> People want to get high?  I'm all for legalizing pot.  But instead of criminalizing this shit, perhaps we should address it as the disorder that it truely is, rather than just toss people in jail.
> 
> (I don't give a shit if I make a lolcow out of myself.  I'm terrified of becoming what my aunt was.



Maybe if you have a beer or two you'll calm your mind a bit, lad.


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## Picklepower (Sep 14, 2016)

Actually to be real, maybe if you have a craving, try drinking a non alcoholic to substitute? I dunno how well that would work because I'm not much of a drinker though.


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## Innocuous (Sep 14, 2016)

Picklepower said:


> Actually to be real, maybe if you have a craving, try drinking a non alcoholic to substitute?



You'd have better luck just drinking something else entirely than trying to drink non-alcoholic piss water


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Sep 15, 2016)

_Powerlevel alert:_ I recently realized that I'm addicted to sugar. Yes this exists. I became kinda fat I thought it was stress but nope. I stoped eating junk food a few days ago. It sucks but I would always overeat and had bad stomach pain the next day. I just can't eat a piece of cake or pizza like normal people. One bite and I there suddenly is a pressure to eat more and more. So I quit. Don't think I can eat like a normal person ever again. But at least I lose that weight and stay healthy.

That's why I hate HAES, gainers, feedees and so on. These guys don't just "like" food. If you always overat you are addicted. They glorify their fucking addiction.


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## Marvin (Sep 15, 2016)

Mrs Paul said:


> But instead of criminalizing this shit, perhaps we should address it as the disorder that it truely is, rather than just toss people in jail.


(You were talking about marijuana but still...) The disease theory of alcoholism is pretty debatable.

I see it as unnecessarily obscuring the role personal responsibility plays.

Physical addiction certainly does exist. But there's a broad gap between heroin and masturbation.


Sinners Sandwich said:


> That's why I hate HAES, gainers, feedees and so on. These guys don't just "like" food. If you always overat you are addicted. They glorify their fucking addiction.


Perhaps for a very loose definition of "addicted".

Well, and there's also the sexual element.


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## Lachlan Hunter McIntyre (Sep 18, 2016)

At least I know I'll never have an alcohol dependency. I'm a fucking lightweight that gets sick after half a beer. And I think all liquor tastes foul.


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## HG 400 (Sep 19, 2016)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> _Powerlevel alert:_ I recently realized that I'm addicted to sugar. Yes this exists



No it doesn't you're just fat and have no personal willpower or character. Now go attentionwhore somewhere else, the good people here are trying to talk about legitimate addictions to actual drugs, not being worthless fatties who can barely put down the cake long enough to sputter "Hurrr it's basically the same as heroin when you think about it".


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## Thespy (Sep 19, 2016)

Amphetamines caused me to have many psychological chimpouts and REAL chimpouts (on uncommon occasions).

I should probably start smoking that jazz cabbage to calm my ass down; it's pretty much legal here now. I am afraid that all the bong water will get to my head though. I'm waiting until injecting THC becomes viable for recreational consumers.


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## Save Goober (Sep 20, 2016)

I'm an alcoholic, I think everyone here knows that already
Addiction treatment sucks. 12 step programs are actually one of the least effective treatments for alcoholism but everyone seems to think they are the only way. CBT and drugs are a lot more effective.
Look up "The Sinclair Method," it's been used very effectively in other countries.. I will say it did not completely work for me but it did curb my drinking a lot, so I find it's worth doing.


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## Mars Attacks! (Sep 25, 2016)

melty said:


> I'm an alcoholic, I think everyone here knows that already
> Addiction treatment sucks. 12 step programs are actually one of the least effective treatments for alcoholism but everyone seems to think they are the only way. CBT and drugs are a lot more effective.
> Look up "The Sinclair Method," it's been used very effectively in other countries.. I will say it did not completely work for me but it did curb my drinking a lot, so I find it's worth doing.



Came to this thread to say 12 Step programs are bullshit.
It would be one thing if they could just admit that they're a religious approach to addiction.  For some people (very few who enter the program, like 5%?), they work.  But you can't claim it's scientific or even that it's secular when every damn meeting begins and ends with a prayer.  Besides that, the philosophy of 12 step is basically telling people that they're incurably sick and that their only hope is to dedicate their lives to a TOTALLY NOT A CULT organization.  If you've been clean and sober for X years and you still go to meetings multiple times a week, you're just letting your addiction control your life in a different way.  Know what gave me peace with my history of drug use?  Moving the fuck on.
I've never heard of the Sinclair method, gonna go look it up.


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## polonium (Sep 26, 2016)

Can't remember where I read it, but the core concept of AA and other abstinence-based solutions is flawed, it presupposes that you are sick but never allows for you to move on to a "cured" condition.

I'd never heard of the Sinclair method.. sounds interesting.


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## FuckStrickland (Oct 3, 2016)

I fucking love adderall if i could not sleep or eat ever again i'd be fucking satisfied 
I stopped drinking and smoking pot and i dont even care because i'm so fucking jacked all the fucking time


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## ChuckSlaughter (Oct 15, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> Besides that, the philosophy of 12 step is basically telling people that they're incurably sick and that their only hope is to dedicate their lives to a TOTALLY NOT A CULT organization.



I can't tell you how much AA stuff I hear passed around as scientific fact.  I wonder how many people learned they were incurably sick and would struggle their whole lives and then just killed themselves.


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## Save Goober (Oct 27, 2016)

I called a local chemical dependency center because I was having withdrawal symptoms if I didn't drink for several hours. I wanted to see a doctor for tapering advice and to possibly renew my naltrexone prescription because I'm kind of going off the rails for it.
The receptionist I think thought I was trying to get benzos or whatever drug junkies want, even though I said I mostly just needed medical advice and said what medication I had run out of (I can't think of any reason anyone would want naltrexone, it's for addiction and lupus and it's super harmless) she was super snippy and said the program was only for group therapy and I wouldn't see a doctor.
This was a hospital.  Wtf is even the point?  If I wanted to go to group therapy I could go fucking anywhere. I called a fucking hospital because I want to stop shaking and puking. I don't know it just seems like bullshit.
I am seeing a doctor soon though.


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## Piss Clam (Oct 27, 2016)

Does it matter if you die at 80 having played it safe all your life or at 27 in some bathtub in Paris.


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## Save Goober (Oct 27, 2016)

Piss Clam said:


> Does it matter if you die at 80 having played it safe all your life or at 27 in some bathtub in Paris.


I wish I could have died at 27 in a bathtub in Paris. I guess there's still time though lol.


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## Piss Clam (Oct 27, 2016)

melty said:


> I wish I could have died at 27 in a bathtub in Paris. I guess there's still time though lol.



You could get your own personal shrine at Pere Lachaise.


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## Mesh Gear Fox (Oct 29, 2016)

Piss Clam said:


> Does it matter if you die at 80 having played it safe all your life or at 27 in some bathtub in Paris



Totally agree with this.  I would rather have a shorter life of indulgence than a long life of deprivation.


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## Philosophy Zombie (Oct 29, 2016)

Mesh Gear Fox said:


> Totally agree with this.  I would rather have a shorter life of indulgence than a long life of deprivation.


This is annoying because you create a dichotomy where no one exists. Nobody outside a high school DARE course said that you have to be totally abstinent. Just don't be an idiot

The other assumption this mindset makes is that you actually die. You could very well live 50 more years nursing that dope habit which has ceased to give you any pleasure but you have to do lines to feel normal, or as a quadriplegic after a drunk driving accident where bleeding hearts refuse to let you die no matter how much you want to because it's against God's plan.


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## Save Goober (Oct 29, 2016)

I'm sure it seems glamorous but the reality is very different.
it fucks up everything in your life. I have constant health issues. my stomach hurts all the time. I shake when I wake up.  sometimes I puke for no good reason. I used to puke every morning but luckily I don't do that anymore.
I worry constantly about getting fired. I worry about losing friends because i don't remember what i said to them yesterday.  I worry about how much worse my health will be when I turn 30 because I'm probably not going to die in a bathtub, I'll die slowly with a bunch of disgusting and painful health issues.
There are some good things about it but overall it's shit.


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## AnOminous (Oct 29, 2016)

Mesh Gear Fox said:


> Totally agree with this.  I would rather have a shorter life of indulgence than a long life of deprivation.



If you look at the lives of most of those rock stars who died young after a life of indulgence, they were usually pretty miserable, and their music reflects that.


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## ERROR_ENTRY (Oct 29, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> If you look at the lives of most of those rock stars who died young after a life of indulgence, they were usually pretty miserable, and their music reflects that.


I think the worst was Layne Staley. He lived completely isolated in the last years of his life. The only reason people found out he died was that his accountant noticed he hadn't withdrawn any money for 2 weeks.


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## Marvin (Oct 29, 2016)

Mesh Gear Fox said:


> Totally agree with this.  I would rather have a shorter life of indulgence than a long life of deprivation.


Yeah, I get this.

Like, I view it as a tradeoff between mental/spiritual indulgence and physical indulgence. Everything physically enjoyable erodes your physical health. So there's a spectrum between living to 110 as a monk, or living to 30 as a junkie. I get annoyed at people who pick one single spot on the spectrum and praise it as the perfect balance for everyone. There is no universally perfect balance. Everyone's going to have different tastes when it comes to this.

Someone getting smug purely because they exercise a bit more than I do can eat a dick. And in the same way, dogging on someone because they're a teetotaler can also eat a dick. (Although I don't encounter those types of people as often.)


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## AnOminous (Oct 29, 2016)

Marvin said:


> Yeah, I get this.
> 
> Like, I view it as a tradeoff between mental/spiritual indulgence and physical indulgence. Everything physically enjoyable erodes your physical health.



There's fairly good evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol is actually good for you.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if moderate consumption of recreational substances in general is actually good for you physically and mentally.  I'm not necessarily saying avoid all excess, I don't, but there's probably a happy medium somewhere.

There are also some things, like heroin, crack, huffing gasoline, etc. that are just plain bad, but even with those, there are people who have done them without turning into total degenerates for life.


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## Caesare (Oct 29, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> There are also some things, like heroin, crack, huffing gasoline, etc. that are just plain bad, but even with those, there are people who have done them without turning into total degenerates for life.




Lol, maybe a few,  probably a pretty small  number though. idk. Huffing gasoline seems to be a more suicidal venture than a "getting loaded" one. 

AA though, I don't understand why anyone would talk shit about an organization that gets people together to socialize, get's them to do some self-reflection, and condone's sobriety. I don't have any strong feelings for them one way or the other, but calling them a cult is pretty fucking silly. I've been to NA/AA meetings before because they were court ordered.

Nothing about the group is cult-like. As a matter of fact, calling Alcoholics Anonymous a cult is actually pretty insulting to real cults of weak-willed people who are magnetically drawn to a cult of personality who drains their bank accounts and manipulates its member's lives.

AA meekly ask's people to throw change in a basket to buy coffee sometimes.... You people don't see the difference there?

They start and end meetings with prayers because at the end of the day, most people's higher power tends to be.... a higher power, like one of the major deities that people commonly worship in this country. They don't force anyone to join in the prayers, and you can get up and leave anytime you want, and to say those people are shallow, that's crazy, I've met some of the most talkative, introspective people in those groups. They never shut up about their introspections and their reflections. They are friendly and their rhetoric is harmless to anyone trying to try sobriety for a change.

How can hanging out with a bunch of sober people be a bad thing for the addict or the alcoholic? And I've spoken to probably more people who don't buy into the "dry drunk" idea than those who do. I am starting to think that people hate AA/NA just because they have a religious element and most of us are forced to attend the meetings rather than go on our own accord, at a time in our lives when we are likely at a very low point.


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## Male Idiot (Oct 29, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> There's fairly good evidence that moderate consumption of alcohol is actually good for you.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if moderate consumption of recreational substances in general is actually good for you physically and mentally.  I'm not necessarily saying avoid all excess, I don't, but there's probably a happy medium somewhere.
> 
> There are also some things, like heroin, crack, huffing gasoline, etc. that are just plain bad, but even with those, there are people who have done them without turning into total degenerates for life.



I have been drinking and smoking responsibly since I was 13. I get wasted once a year, that's good enough! And even than I am always in control enough to reach the toilet if I need to.


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## Caesare (Oct 29, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> Came to this thread to say 12 Step programs are bullshit.
> If you've been clean and sober for X years and you still go to meetings multiple times a week, you're just letting your addiction control your life in a different way.  Know what gave me peace with my history of drug use?  Moving the fuck on.




It might be bullshit for you but plenty people seemed to have gotten satisfaction from it. Some people attend meetings in order to learn how to "move the fuck on". Lot of them never grew up past the point they started drinking/using and needed to spend time with people who have actual experience dealing with the day to day issues of addiction. Not a doctor, not a family member who means well and will do anything for you but has never lived that life, but an actual person who survived it and can maybe show you a few ways to deal with that part of it and convince you to stay clean another few days, maybe just a day if you're just starting out.




melty said:


> I'm an alcoholic, I think everyone here knows that already
> Addiction treatment sucks. 12 step programs are actually one of the least effective treatments for alcoholism but everyone seems to think they are the only way. CBT and drugs are a lot more effective.




You seem to be implying that drugs that get you over the DT's and some therapy is all that lifestyle is about. You're an alcoholic, you know that there is more to it. What about when you start feeling better? What's to stop you from going to get on that dope again?  Therapy is just fine, its a good step to take. Maybe there will be a real live recovering addict as a counselor who can help you out with your issues, though he will probably just tell you to go get in some AA/NA meetings and get a sponsor before you come back to see him lol.


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## Marvin (Oct 29, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> They start and end meetings with prayers because at the end of the day, most people's higher power tends to be.... a higher power, like one of the major deities that people commonly worship in this country. They don't force anyone to join in the prayers, and you can get up and leave anytime you want, and to say those people are shallow, that's crazy, I've met some of the most talkative, introspective people in those groups. They never shut up about their introspections and their reflections. They are friendly and their rhetoric is harmless to anyone trying to try sobriety for a change.


You're not forced to pray at church either, but at the end of the day, church is still a religious organization. The claim that AA is not religious is false.


Coleman Francis said:


> I am starting to think that people hate AA/NA just because they have a religious element and most of us are forced to attend the meetings rather than go on our own accord, at a time in our lives when we are likely at a very low point.


Its methods are ineffective yet people keep recommending it over much more effective treatments. I say this as an unbiased outsider who's never had to attend AA. I've just looked into the subject online and I've found the clash between what AA proponents say and the reality of the situation shocking.


Coleman Francis said:


> It might be bullshit for you but plenty people seemed to have gotten satisfaction from it. Some people attend meetings in order to learn how to "move the fuck on".


AA has the same problem that all cults have, really, in that most people aren't persuaded by its teachings, but the people who have been persuaded turn into devout recruiters. It gives people an inflated view of AA and its efficacy.


Coleman Francis said:


> Maybe there will be a real live recovering addict as a counselor who can help you out with your issues, though he will probably just tell you to go get in some AA/NA meetings and get a sponsor before you come back to see him lol.


Unfortunately that's all too common.

A small portion of people are actually helped by AA. But most people aren't, and this is specifically because of deficiencies in AA's approach. AA is a lot like abstinence-only sexual education. If anyone is looking for help with their drinking, harm reduction programs like HAMS are much, much more effective.


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## Male Idiot (Oct 29, 2016)

Where I come from, a real man (or cool woman!) can drink without becoming addicted. It is a test of one's character to master the booze without letting it overcome him/herself. This signals that they have a strong constitution that can handle alcohol and a stronger will to not be addicted. 

It does not always work, but saying "I don't drink" is a surefire way to die a virgin.


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## Save Goober (Oct 29, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> It might be bullshit for you but plenty people seemed to have gotten satisfaction from it. Some people attend meetings in order to learn how to "move the fuck on". Lot of them never grew up past the point they started drinking/using and needed to spend time with people who have actual experience dealing with the day to day issues of addiction. Not a doctor, not a family member who means well and will do anything for you but has never lived that life, but an actual person who survived it and can maybe show you a few ways to deal with that part of it and convince you to stay clean another few days, maybe just a day if you're just starting out.
> 
> You seem to be implying that drugs that get you over the DT's and some therapy is all that lifestyle is about. You're an alcoholic, you know that there is more to it. What about when you start feeling better? What's to stop you from going to get on that dope again?  Therapy is just fine, its a good step to take. Maybe there will be a real live recovering addict as a counselor who can help you out with your issues, though he will probably just tell you to go get in some AA/NA meetings and get a sponsor before you come back to see him lol.



http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/
I can't find the study, but AA ranks very, very low in the most effective treatments available. It's a holdover from the 30s when people didn't understand addiction as they do now.
Talking to people is fine. Having a sponsor isn't a bad idea. What's wrong is when it's the first thing people are told to turn to or when you are ordered by a court to go to AA (I have not personally been through this because I don't drive drunk). iirc AA has an efficacy rate of about 12%, while drugs for addiction combined with modern therapy are more like 70% or higher.


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## Mesh Gear Fox (Oct 29, 2016)

Philosophy Nong said:


> You could very well live 50 more years nursing that dope habit which has ceased to give you any pleasure but you have to do lines to feel normal, or as a quadriplegic after a drunk driving accident where bleeding hearts refuse to let you die no matter how much you want to because it's against God's plan.



God damn, calm down.  I never said I was a full blown junkie.  I smoke cigarettes, drink and use drugs probably more than I should, don't really excersice as much as I should, and eat pretty much anything that tastes good.  I am gainfully employed and meet all my obligations.  All I was going for is that I'm against this "you have to be healthy!!" shit that gets shoved down my throat.  Yeah these things definitely not great but I do them anyways.  Geez...


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Oct 29, 2016)

Holy crap. I saw this thread around noon and meant to respond to a few things, but so much more was said after that. 



Mrs Paul said:


> (I don't give a shit if I make a lolcow out of myself. I'm terrified of becoming what my aunt was.



Lolcows typically lack self-awareness and the desire to improve. You seem to have a fair amount of both.



keksz said:


> That's rough, OP. As long as you learn from their mistakes and have the conviction not to go down the same path, chances are you'll do much better.
> 
> A friend of mine who was pretty hardcore at an young age told me back then: drugs are not the issue, the issue is whatever keeps brining you back into drugs. May sound cheap but it's so true.
> 
> Also a lot of illegal drugs out there are infinitely safer than tobacco and alcohol, in the least as far as addiction goes. Mushrooms and ganja, for example.



I just wanted to endorse this one. Excellent comment.



Mars Attacks! said:


> But you can't claim it's scientific or even that it's secular when every damn meeting begins and ends with a prayer.



Depends on the meeting and part of the world it's in. My understanding is the prayers (or at least the one at the end, the Lord's Prayer) don't generally happen outside of America, and it happens less in the more liberal parts of America. In the Southeast they're rather ubiquitous. Some meetings opt not to have that prayer at the end, or at all. There are a few but growing number of so-called "We Agnostics" meetings which are completely secular and prayerless.



melty said:


> I called a local chemical dependency center because I was having withdrawal symptoms if I didn't drink for several hours. I wanted to see a doctor for tapering advice and to possibly renew my naltrexone prescription because I'm kind of going off the rails for it.





melty said:


> I have constant health issues. my stomach hurts all the time. I shake when I wake up. sometimes I puke for no good reason.



I strongly recommend you forget about naltrexone and tapering and check yourself into a psychiatric hospital for detoxification. You obviously are incapable of weening yourself off of it, and if you tried or went cold turkey, you're at risk of delirium tremens. Many people who get that die from seizures or heart attacks. If you're inpatient they'll keep you from alcohol and sedate you at least enough to prevent DTs and seizures. 



melty said:


> I worry constantly about getting fired.



That's a very reasonable fear. I suspect you're close to it already. You better go for recovery full throttle now and salvage what you have before you have no income or insurance to rely on.



Coleman Francis said:


> AA though, I don't understand why anyone would talk shit about an organization that gets people together to socialize, get's them to do some self-reflection, and condone's sobriety. I don't have any strong feelings for them one way or the other, but calling them a cult is pretty fucking silly



What you say is very true. It is a very nurturing and supportive place, and various traits which would take too much space to adequately articulate. The problem is, AA as a whole, doctrinally, is extremely inflexible and arrogant. The literature is very condescending to atheists and non-deists, and professes to be the only realistic path to recovery for the vast majority of people. This causes a great part of its membership to also be anti-atheist and anti-other than 12 Step. They are on the path to obscurity and irrelevance, and that's a damn shame.

Also, I do agree they're not a cult, but they very much come across like one to an untrained observer.



Coleman Francis said:


> Maybe there will be a real live recovering addict as a counselor who can help you out with your issues, though he will probably just tell you to go get in some AA/NA meetings and get a sponsor before you come back to see him lol.



I really hope not. A lot of counselors are useless or worse, but they're not supposed to refuse to see someone who doesn't attend 12 Step meetings for whatever reasons, or act condescendingly to them.


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## Save Goober (Oct 29, 2016)

Like I said, I am getting help soon. I did an inpatient thing before, it was pretty helpful, but I really, really don't have time for it right now :/ if it's essential than idk.
Naltrexone literally cuts my drinking in half. "Half" is still not a healthy amount but it's much, much better, so in that sense I find it extremely valuable.
It seems like what you guys like about AA is the group therapy aspect? If that's the case, I can agree with that; one of the most helpful things I found about inpatient were group sessions. But you can go to non-AA group sessions, you know. 


Field Marshal Crappenberg said:


> It is a very nurturing and supportive place, and various traits which would take too much space to adequately articulate.


is basically my experience with a non-AA group.


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Oct 29, 2016)

melty said:


> Like I said, I am getting help soon. I did an inpatient thing before, it was pretty helpful, but I really, really don't have time for it right now :/



Sounds like you're currently spending a lot of time and stamina drinking, recovering, and trying to find help for it. 



melty said:


> Naltrexone literally cuts my drinking in half.



At the risk of sounding preachy, it needs to be cut to zero. Half is not close to enough, though I'm not advocating you give up on the Sinclair Method. 



melty said:


> It seems like what you guys like about AA is the group therapy aspect? If that's the case, I can agree with that; one of the most helpful things I found about inpatient were group sessions.



I wouldn't equivocate AA meetings with group psychotherapy. There is indeed therapeutic value in being able to voice one's own experiences and beliefs to a group of people, but it's quite different from group psychotherapy in some ways.



melty said:


> But you can go to non-AA group sessions, you know.



Oh, yes, of course. SMART meetings are more similar to actual psychotherapy groups and their doctrine is rooted in a form of CBT. There are a couple of other non-12 step organizations as well, and there are also the secular AA meetings which are being more rapidly proliferated these days. The regular AA meetings are also very varied. People generally have options.


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## Caesare (Oct 30, 2016)

Marvin said:


> You're not forced to pray at church either, but at the end
> 
> Unfortunately that's all too common.
> 
> A small portion of people are actually helped by AA. But most people aren't, and this is specifically because of deficiencies in AA's approach. AA is a lot like abstinence-only sexual education. If anyone is looking for help with their drinking, harm reduction programs like HAMS are much, much more effective.




Only thing I really want to say this morning is that nowhere in any group will they tell you to be abstinent only or say that their method and approach is the only method. You wouldn't know this unless you have experience with the actual organization and its members.

The internet, being what it is, naturally is going to bring out the most antisocial and radical members of the antis and the pros of the AA/NA argument. This is one way to find out what the diehards are saying, but I'd say that what you read online from those people probably accounts for maybe 1% or so of people with addiction experience or AA/NA experience. I don't have any hard numbers, this is just my opinion from experience with most things you read about online as opposed to the reality of the situation. You know how that goes, its just never that serious in real life.



↑
You're not forced to pray at church either, but at the end of the day, church is still a religious organization. The claim that AA is not religious is false.

Its methods are ineffective yet people keep recommending it over much more effective treatments. I say this as an unbiased outsider who's never had to attend AA. I've just looked into the subject online and I've found the clash between what AA proponents say and the reality of the situation shocking.

AA has the same problem that all cults have, really, in that most people aren't persuaded by its teachings, but the people who have been persuaded turn into devout recruiters. It gives people an inflated view of AA and its efficacy.
Click to expand...

The reason that this doesn't fly is due to the fact that AA/NA recruiters aren't doing so for any kind of monetary gain. Having people in their organization does absolutely nothing for them besides possibly give them a good feeling for helping someone else.

Someone said, I think @melty that other programs can "cure" 70% of addictions/alcoholics whereas AA/NA sometimes "cures" 12% To this I say fucking awesome. If any method can "cure" this, and has stats backing it up, I say that this is a good thing. Even if a method only can "cure" 2% of its followers, that's still a good thing. The ones who weren't "cured" might have a better understanding of themselves and their problems even if they are still doing wrong. Maybe down the line they will find the method that works for them.

Any positive numbers are good. Now if you came in here and told me that because of AA/NA, that people were turning to drinking/shooting dope, lol, first I'd probably call you a liar, then I'd have to really think about the situation and my opinion on it because that would be some shit lol.

As long as the numbers are positive, and heck, if AA/NA is responsible for "curing" 10% or more that is fucking incredible. It's doesn't cost a penny. That's why the courts recommend that along with other treatments for alcoholics/addicts because its free to them. They can tell you that you need an impatient treatment and you are going to have to wait for that if you don't have the money/insurance for room to open up. Their sure is a lot of alcoholics/addicts out there that have insurance. If you don't even have a pot to piss in, you aren't going to get preferential treatment because your problem is worse. They're going to accept the paid people first. What we have to say about this doesn't matter because that is going to be the reality of the situation. 

You know how they say "you get what you pay for"? That's going to be the case for most things. A treatment center that costs a lot of money with doctors, nurses, and counselors is probably going to work better. Like I said, I'm not a diehard, I know this much. But when you stop paying them, the treatment stops.

They can put you on a great path and they should, they are being paid well to. Once all is said and done, the choice to remain sober falls into the hands of the individual, not the paid group or the unpaid group.

A lot of people find it easier, cheaper, more accessible, and less restrictive to use what they learned in that expensive treatment center and supplement it with AA/NA meetings. They help people stay on the right track, that is a fact. If you aren't getting what you need out of a meeting than find another meeting. You know that they all aren't going to be the same.

It's just like doctors. If you don't like your doctor you aren't going to keep going to him, you are gonna find a new one. Same principle with this.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Oct 30, 2016)

As a fairly new smoker of tobacco (not cigarettes, pipes and cigars sometimes), I always wonder if I'm smoking because it's a subconscious need, or because I really enjoy the process.

It's a bit of an existential or epistemological quandary, I guess, and it makes you second-guess your own brain. It certainly makes me second-guess myself. Am I actually getting pleasure from smoking or is it just my brain telling me I am getting pleasure because of some chemical reaction bullshit?

I don't feel "cravings" nor do I suffer from not smoking days at a time... but I do like to smoke and if it's not too much hassle, I will do it once or rarely twice a day. However, sometimes I just can't be bothered to. I guess it's not much of an addiction if you can say "man, putting on pants and shoes is too much work, fuck it".


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## Marvin (Oct 30, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> Only thing I really want to say this morning is that nowhere in any group will they tell you to be abstinent only or say that their method and approach is the only method.


AA's methodology says you must be abstinent. Drinking is entirely out of your control, which is why you must seek a higher power, and any drinking will set you right back to being an alcoholic. One drink, one drunk. It's been observed that AA might indirectly cause high rates of binge drinking in its dropouts. "Welp, I had a drink, might as well go whole hog."

When people do fail with AA, they put the blame on the individual for not sticking to the party line closely enough, instead of investigating flaws in AA's methodology.


Coleman Francis said:


> You wouldn't know this unless you have experience with the actual organization and its members.


Pfft, that's nonsense. That's like saying I can't criticize the government unless I work in the government.


Coleman Francis said:


> The internet, being what it is, naturally is going to bring out the most antisocial and radical members of the antis and the pros of the AA/NA argument. This is one way to find out what the diehards are saying, but I'd say that what you read online from those people probably accounts for maybe 1% or so of people with addiction experience or AA/NA experience. I don't have any hard numbers, this is just my opinion from experience with most things you read about online as opposed to the reality of the situation. You know how that goes, its just never that serious in real life.


No, I'm talking about stats, not stories. Experience is a terrible source because it's saturated with bias.


Coleman Francis said:


> The reason that this doesn't fly is due to the fact that AA/NA recruiters aren't doing so for any kind of monetary gain. Having people in their organization does absolutely nothing for them besides possibly give them a good feeling for helping someone else.


Same thing with a cult. Cult members aren't doing it for any sort of monetary bias. Only the higher ups cash out. The lower level recruiters have just drank the koolade.


Coleman Francis said:


> Someone said, I think @melty that other programs can "cure" 70% of addictions/alcoholics whereas AA/NA sometimes "cures" 12% To this I say fucking awesome. If any method can "cure" this, and has stats backing it up, I say that this is a good thing. Even if a method only can "cure" 2% of its followers, that's still a good thing. The ones who weren't "cured" might have a better understanding of themselves and their problems even if they are still doing wrong. Maybe down the line they will find the method that works for them.


The problem is that AA is being recommended in lieu of effective treatments.


Coleman Francis said:


> That's why the courts recommend that along with other treatments for alcoholics/addicts because its free to them. They can tell you that you need an impatient treatment and you are going to have to wait for that if you don't have the money/insurance for room to open up.


But they don't. There actually exist free treatments that work. Like HAMS, like I mentioned above. But frequently AA is the only free option mentioned, and that's terrible.

Like @melty mentioned, AA was developed back when addiction science was woefully underdeveloped. It's essentially superstition applied to a societal problem. Its continued popularity is because of its dedicated adherents, and general ignorance about the subject among people. It's basically a pop culture phenomenon among addicts (and the families of addicts, and the courts/legal system).


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## Caesare (Oct 30, 2016)

Marvin said:


> Pfft, that's nonsense. That's like saying I can't criticize the government unless I work in the government.



When did I say you couldn't criticize? I'm just saying you wouldn't understand the situation unless you've been there. That's just life. You can read about it all you want, study it, quote people. You can be a counselor with a good education and still not understand what motivates people until you start working it.

That's not saying the counselors have to come from a place of having these fuckups, but that is why schools do make nurses and counselors attend AA/NA meetings and investigate the situation, its not all books and stats, they want the students to have actual experience dealing with people and their problems.

I've been saying since the beginning, the ONLY reason why courts recommend AA/NA is because its free. They tell people who suffer from addiction and alcoholism who are currently in the throes of their addiction to get in inpatient rehab. They don't say go sit in some meetings lol.

If you think a cult recruiter isn't getting anything from recruiting that is quite naive. The higher ups are going to toss them a bone if they are getting members and their money. This isn't even existent with anything in AA/NA because there is no money. It's all people trying to help people. They will tell you to read the literature and work the system, it worked for some of them, so they promote it.

If that doesn't work for you, though, none of them are going to be unhappy about it, if they are, you are just around a bad group. Like anything else you will have this. You have to find a good group of people to be around.


And again, we can talk about what is good and what is right all day. It's not going to make it real. We can bitch or we can offer alternatives. I'm saying that AA/NA isn't superstition, its much too basic for that. All it does is get problematic people to try and get out and socialize with their peers. Have some introspection, meet people, make connections. Nothing bad is going to come out of this.

Even if it only works for 1 out of 10 people as a end all means to stop drinking/getting loaded, that's pretty goddamn good.


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## The Janitor (Oct 30, 2016)

I mentioned this in the "Food Allergies" thread, but this is also a decent place to talk about it:

I'm sensitive to Wheat, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Dairy, and Soy.  I won't go over what happens with each one.  I already did in detail over on the other thread.

The reason why I bring these up is because it's lead to a food addiction.  Now, I'm not scary-fat (I'm about 20 lbs over what the charts recommend in regards to BMI), but I'm not the poster-child for the paleo diet either (I legit can't do the paleo diet because of how restrictive it is).  Add on that I have a family history of addiction, and it's turned rather ordinary snacks like donuts, candy, cake, etc. into a literal drug for me.  The worst part? Said drug isn't illegal, and is pushed down our throats as American citizens.


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## Marvin (Oct 30, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> When did I say you couldn't criticize? I'm just saying you wouldn't understand the situation unless you've been there.


That's a distinction without a difference. You're saying that my criticism is invalid unless I've been there. So, OK, I'll be more clear: you're right, it's not that I can't criticize, just that my criticisms allegedly have no validity, immediately out of the gate.


Coleman Francis said:


> I've been saying since the beginning, the ONLY reason why courts recommend AA/NA is because its free.


There are other free programs that are effective.


Coleman Francis said:


> If you think a cult recruiter isn't getting anything from recruiting that is quite naive. The higher ups are going to toss them a bone if they are getting members and their money. This isn't even existent with anything in AA/NA because there is no money.


Ok, then how about the Jehovah's witnesses. Or Mormons. Or any group that proselytizes. I think it's more naive to think that money is the only motivation people have. That when you remove money, you remove bias. That simply isn't true.


Coleman Francis said:


> It's all people trying to help people. They will tell you to read the literature and work the system, it worked for some of them, so they promote it.


Oh, I know it works for some people. But other things work a lot more reliably, for more people. We shouldn't let AA proponents dominate the conversation, when all evidence shows that it's really quite ineffective most of the time.

My whole point is that the bias regarding AA is that individuals get blamed for AA's failure, but the system gets praised for its successes. When it does work for someone, they frequently become ardent promoters. Everyone knows someone whose uncle or cousin was helped by AA, so they spread it. But the failures don't really speak up. You haven't acknowledged this point.

Twelve step programs are treated as _the standard_ by society. That's a serious problem.


Coleman Francis said:


> And again, we can talk about what is good and what is right all day. It's not going to make it real. We can bitch or we can offer alternatives.


Like I said, there are indeed alternatives, like HAMS.


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## Caesare (Oct 30, 2016)

Lol @Marvin, you're not saying anything bad, I can't get mad at ya.

The only reason AA/NA dominate the discussion is because its most likely the first big one. People trust it for those reasons, including the court systems. But regardless of what their online literature says, which I'm sure you've read up on thoroughly, as well as the chatroom discussions with the proponents and enemies of it, which I'm sure you've taken part in: they don't actually follow their own rules very well, if abstinence only is what it says then I'm sure you're correct about that.

Every group I've ever taken part in will recommend something besides AA/NA to someone that is still in the active throes of their addiction. They might even say that AA/NA isn't for you. No cult or evangelical church is ever going to tell a prospect that their alternative lifestyle/church isn't for them. Naturally there are other things besides money in this world, but what motivates the majority of people most of the time? That's right.

All I'm saying is that no one treatment works for everyone. It generally takes multiple at the same time and even doing that isn't foolproof. Most people don't get over their problem, sadly enough.

What I'm saying is that all these programs and more are needed, and they still won't be enough. AA/NA is one option that should be taken with several others and is a most affordable option because it costs nothing but a little bit of time.


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## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 31, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> Naturally there are other things besides money in this world, but what motivates the majority of people most of the time? That's right.


Being right. That motivates people more than money every time.


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## Bethari (Nov 1, 2016)

Marvin said:


> Everything physically enjoyable erodes your physical health.



Not sure if I can agree with you there. There are lots of things that can be good for you that feel good as well, such as talking with friends, exercise, and, if you stick with it long enough, eating healthy. A lot of these, though, take time to become enjoyable. For what it's worth, it can be really hard to do these things while dealing with other stressful parts of life.


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## Male Idiot (Nov 1, 2016)

Bethari said:


> Not sure if I can agree with you there. There are lots of things that can be good for you that feel good as well, such as talking with friends, exercise, and, if you stick with it long enough, eating healthy. A lot of these, though, take time to become enjoyable. For what it's worth, it can be really hard to do these things while dealing with other stressful parts of life.



Exercise and eating healthy feeling good? What type of crack are you smoking man, I want to smoke two kilos of it.


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## Bethari (Nov 1, 2016)

Male Idiot said:


> Exxercise and eating healthy feeling good? What type of crack are you smoking man, I want to smoke two kilos of it.



I know it's not a scientific paper, but here's a few sources that report that exercise can help alleviate depression:
WebMD
How Stuff Works
Scientific American
Anecdotally, (although it's worth absolutely nothing) every psychiatrist I've had has told me that exercise makes you feel better. As for eating healthier, you get used to certain types of foods the more you eat them.
EDIT: Anyway, sorry, didn't mean to fftopic:


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## Male Idiot (Nov 1, 2016)

Hey it could be true, it may take your mind of depression. But since I'm not depressed, medically speaking, it doesn't really help anymore!


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Nov 1, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> I've been saying since the beginning, the ONLY reason why courts recommend AA/NA is because its free.



I suspect the two reasons the courts routinely recommend 12 Step meetings besides the one you listed are:

1.) The American psych profession heavily endorses this as the primary method of aftercare after rehab.
2.) It's very often the only such program available. The number of non-12 Step meetings are miniscule compared to 12 Step, especially AA. To put this in perspective, SMART Recovery might by now have something around 1,100 face-to-face meetings per week *throughout the world* (many of them not open to everyone). AA has approx. 1,100 meetings per week in the *Metro Atlanta area*.



Coleman Francis said:


> And again, we can talk about what is good and what is right all day. It's not going to make it real. We can bitch or we can offer alternatives. I'm saying that AA/NA isn't superstition, its much too basic for that. All it does is get problematic people to try and get out and socialize with their peers. Have some introspection, meet people, make connections. Nothing bad is going to come out of this.



I would postulate that deism in general is superstitious, and that generally is the mode of recovery in 12 Step programs. While people are allowed to be atheists or otherwise non-deistic and to use something besides God as their "Higher Power", in AA especially, there is a great level of disdain for that methodology. It is also true that AA brings people together and facilitates socialization, and this is invaluable for certain people. However, that's counterbalanced when someone who doesn't use God as their HP repeatedly hears from literature and from people in meetings that non-deism is bad, and self-reliance is bad. AA and other 12 Step programs inadvertently does a fair amount of harm to these people despite its many redeeming qualities. There are some We Agnostic meetings now, but probably most of those who are atheists and who have/had drinking problems have already left AA because they were fed up with all of that arrogance.



Marvin said:


> There are other free programs that are effective.



They're very uncommon relative to AA/12 Step, at least in America. There might be a few SMART meetings if one lives in or near a city, maybe one or two LifeRing or SOS meetings. The online equivalents are pretty few in number, too.

What so many people actually don't realize is, some don't need any intervention at all and just on their own elect to stop. They have greater self-awareness and emotional intelligence, and they stop relatively early on. Many more will use some program for support for a while, but either leave entirely or downgrade their involvement and not really need it to stay sober.



Marvin said:


> Oh, I know it works for some people. But other things work a lot more reliably, for more people. We shouldn't let AA proponents dominate the conversation, when all evidence shows that it's really quite ineffective most of the time.





Marvin said:


> My whole point is that the bias regarding AA is that individuals get blamed for AA's failure, but the system gets praised for its successes.



Heh, sounds exactly like traditional Judeo-Christian deism, and the deism often espoused in AA. If someone has hardships, it's the person's fault ultimately. If someone has a success, God is to be thanked for it. Far too many in AA have similar views about alcoholism and 12 Step success rates. If AA doesn't work for someone, they weren't honest enough and didn't try the program fervently enough.



Marvin said:


> Like I said, there are indeed alternatives, like HAMS.



I actually had never heard of this one, and intend to peruse their site when I have some free moments. I will say, for those who are bona fide alcoholics/addicts, anything short of total abstinence is not feasible.



Coleman Francis said:


> They might even say that AA/NA isn't for you. No cult or evangelical church is ever going to tell a prospect that their alternative lifestyle/church isn't for them.



The ones who are more enlightened on the subject will indeed tell someone that. I am not familiar with the core literature of the other 12 Step fellowships, but, the literature and dogma of AA clearly espouses the belief there is no other viable way besides a "spiritual solution" (i.e., 12 Steps and God) for virtually everyone. Those who recover through other methods are virtually non-existent. This is why so many people are fed up with AA. They're like the Catholic Church: they refuse to modernize or adapt to new information.


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## meatslab (Nov 1, 2016)

Bethari said:


> I know it's not a scientific paper, but here's a few sources that report that exercise can help alleviate depression:
> WebMD
> How Stuff Works
> Scientific American
> ...


This is absolutely true. Exercise makes your brain release certain chemicals that make you feel good. The more you exercise the more your brain chemistry changes for the better. Another thing it does is make you have more energy all the time, which fatigue is a big problem for people with depression. Some have it so bad and are so fatigued they don't even get out of bed. Exercise also releases chemicals that keeps you from wanting to eat all the time. So keeping yourself from binge eating your sadness away would be good for anyone.

Eating right makes your cells healthier so your body functions regularly. That and eating and cooking at certain times helps with putting people who's lives are in total chaos establish a better routine and gives them a step towards structure.

This absolutely ties into addiction because addicts often have depression and a chaotic life. They need structure and routine and normality.


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## Marvin (Nov 1, 2016)

Bethari said:


> Not sure if I can agree with you there. There are lots of things that can be good for you that feel good as well, such as talking with friends, exercise, and, if you stick with it long enough, eating healthy. A lot of these, though, take time to become enjoyable. For what it's worth, it can be really hard to do these things while dealing with other stressful parts of life.


Well, I'm talking physical pleasures. Real base ones, like eating, doing drugs, fucking, etc. And with eating, I am emphasizing fat, salt and sugar. Again, really base, addictive pleasures. There's an incentive to consume more and more, hence obesity.

While it's true dopamine gets released when you exercise, it's not a very accessible source of pleasure for most people. Boredom is a big disincentive for exercising. It's probably the primary disincentive keeping most people from exercising regularly.


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## Male Idiot (Nov 2, 2016)

What Marvin said. And joint pain, back pain, muscle pain, heart pain....


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## bacterium (Nov 2, 2016)

melty said:


> Like I said, I am getting help soon. I did an inpatient thing before, it was pretty helpful, but I really, really don't have time for it right now :/ if it's essential than idk.
> Naltrexone literally cuts my drinking in half. "Half" is still not a healthy amount but it's much, much better, so in that sense I find it extremely valuable.
> It seems like what you guys like about AA is the group therapy aspect? If that's the case, I can agree with that; one of the most helpful things I found about inpatient were group sessions. But you can go to non-AA group sessions, you know.
> 
> is basically my experience with a non-AA group.



Naltrexone is shit from what I have heard. It increases tolerance, so people drink more to get drunk and thus there is a better chance of OD'ing.

Look into acamprosate, instead.


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## Save Goober (Nov 2, 2016)

bacterium said:


> Naltrexone is shit from what I have heard. It increases tolerance, so people drink more to get drunk and thus there is a better chance of OD'ing.
> 
> Look into acamprosate, instead.


That doesn't seem right- from what I recall it's supposed to decrease tolerance and that's definitely been my experience. ~3 weeks ago my subscription ran out and my drinking immediately went off the the scale so i'd say that's decent evidence as well.


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## bacterium (Nov 3, 2016)

melty said:


> That doesn't seem right- from what I recall it's supposed to decrease tolerance and that's definitely been my experience. ~3 weeks ago my subscription ran out and my drinking immediately went off the the scale so i'd say that's decent evidence as well.



I've never used naltrexone, so my comments are all third party, but I haven't heard good things about it. Having said that, it must work for some people, or it wouldn't be prescribed. If it does work for you, that's great. 

But I would still recommend looking into acamprosate (camprol I think?). It reduces cravings, and if you do drink, it tends to be much less. 

Best of luck to you. You can do it


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## Caesare (Nov 3, 2016)

Field Marshal Crappenberg said:


> Heh, sounds exactly like traditional Judeo-Christian deism, and the deism often espoused in AA. If someone has hardships, it's the person's fault ultimately. If someone has a success, God is to be thanked for it. Far too many in AA have similar views about alcoholism and 12 Step success rates. If AA doesn't work for someone, they weren't honest enough and didn't try the program fervently enough.




You said a lot here, I'll probably respond in more detail later on but I wanted to say that I think you are confusing the steps for the actual fellowship of the AA/NA meeting. Yes, the very first step is to admit you are powerless to your addiction. The second step is believing that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

So in a way, if you want that "power greater than ourselves" that the 2nd step describes to be God, it certainly will become a religious experience for you. I don't want to get into all that right now, too damn early, but AA/NA isn't telling people that their own hard work and struggles aren't their own, that it's all "God's will".

They actually make a really big deal about people's struggle getting straight. They hand out "tokens" in their meetings for people who have been sober for so long. There are 24 hour tokens, a week, 2 weeks, month, year, multiple years, etc. When people get these tokens, there is applause, pats on the back, encouraging words, etc. They don't stop the person and tell them to get down on one knee and thank God for "allowing" them to stay clean. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Yes, a lot of people do "put it all in God's hands" if they so choose, when trying to deal with hardships in life. This happens in AA/NA as well, but that is such a small part of it for these people. The main thing about it is the connections people make with their peers, the therapeutic element of meditation, prayer, and venting your frustration to a completely open and nonjudgmental group who exist outside of your normal circle. A lot of alcoholics/addicts turn into isolated people, so just getting them to break that habit of being isolated and getting them outside the house is a good thing that I'm sure a lot of them would normally avoid.

Thus far, everything written in this thread have been things that I've heard in AA/NA meetings from the most dedicated participates. These are the people who were forced to attend for a variety of reasons, were miserable in them, made it very known just how miserable they were, and basically talked bad about every aspect of AA/NA no matter how benign.

Eventually, instead of trying to do it on their own terms, something occurred in their lives which made them try it differently and take the advice of the program. These are the ones who've had the most success.

I am not one of these people lol, though I have been around addicts all my life and I know how sick and miserable they are and how sick they make everyone around them. Every comment here (for the most part) has been badmouthing AA/NA or knocking them in favor of some alternative method.

I'll not only stick up for AA/NA, but I'll stick up for and promote any and all methods that give alcoholics and addicts satisfaction because I've seen how bad it gets for them. I don't think having a lot of options for addicts seeking help is a bad thing.


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## Bethari (Nov 3, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> Yes, the very first step is to admit you are powerless to your addiction.


I think that part of AA is off-putting for many people. It's hard to try to change something if you think you have no control over it.


Coleman Francis said:


> I am not one of these people lol, though I have been around addicts all my life and I know how sick and miserable they are and how sick they make everyone around them. I'll not only stick up for AA/NA, but I'll stick up for and promote any and all methods that give alcoholics and addicts satisfaction because I've seen how bad it gets for them. I don't think having a lot of options for addicts seeking help is a bad thing.


I agree with having lots of options. It's just that in America, it seems like it's the _only _option for people who are struggling. And it doesn't work for everybody.


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Nov 5, 2016)

bacterium said:


> Naltrexone is shit from what I have heard. It increases tolerance, so people drink more to get drunk and thus there is a better chance of OD'ing.



I'm not very familiar with the various pharmaceutical remedies for alcoholism, but I've never heard that about naltrexone. Also, it doesn't increase tolerance so much as decrease the brain's response to booze. It is supposed to turn off what causes alcoholics to compulsively drink endlessly once they start again. 



bacterium said:


> But I would still recommend looking into acamprosate (camprol I think?). It reduces cravings, and if you do drink, it tends to be much less.



Actually, his doctor probably could prescribe both. I don't understand that drug enough to comment much, but if it works in the same manner as the first, it might be what is needed to get him off alcohol completely (assuming it'd be safe for him to be on both). Though, that shouldn't be the only method of recovery, because...



melty said:


> ~3 weeks ago my subscription ran out and my drinking immediately went off the the scale so i'd say that's decent evidence as well.



That is one major reason someone should make the necessary internal changes to stay away from alcohol on their own. They might lose access to the medications for one reason or another. I hope you managed to get another prescription since you wrote that.




Coleman Francis said:


> You said a lot here, I'll probably respond in more detail later on but I wanted to say that I think you are confusing the steps for the actual fellowship of the AA/NA meeting.



Well, yes, that's true. Those programs are not merely the literature and doctrine, but also the people and meetings. A meeting doesn't have to mirror the literature and Steps' wording and attitude precisely. However, the literature and Steps do very massively influence the general fellowship. The core literature is extremely deistic and diminishes the power of people, so as a consequence most in AA also have that general philosophy. Of course, everyone except the lunatics in AA understands that they are not automatons, and they have to rely on their own judgement and strength to live their lives to a large degree. They just don't feel they can succeed at sobriety and happiness in general without the awareness and intervention of God, generally. 



Coleman Francis said:


> They don't stop the person and tell them to get down on one knee and thank God for "allowing" them to stay clean. I don't know where you are getting that from.



I'm familiar with the chip ceremony. I never said they ritualized that in that manner, though a fair number of the blue/year chip takers will assert God and their allegiance to God allows them to remain sober. 



Coleman Francis said:


> The main thing about it is the connections people make with their peers, the therapeutic element of meditation, prayer, and venting your frustration to a completely open and nonjudgmental group who exist outside of your normal circle. A lot of alcoholics/addicts turn into isolated people, so just getting them to break that habit of being isolated and getting them outside the house is a good thing that I'm sure a lot of them would normally avoid.



Oh, yes, I'm not arguing with you at all there. Especially for people who have additional mental illness and are highly estranged from humanity, that kind of camaraderie is extremely important. 12 Step programs very much facilitate service and participation. People who might not readily have any other opportunities to be useful to other people, will always have a clubhouse or meeting to utilize in such a manner, which bolsters their social experience as well as happiness. This is something that the secular alternatives just can't offer, especially at their current sizes. 

This human power is very, very powerful. Unfortunately, I think so many in AA don't realize just how strong their fellowship and its various customs are. Such forces are diminished because their own program eschews human strength and will in favor of divine salvation.



Coleman Francis said:


> Every comment here (for the most part) has been badmouthing AA/NA or knocking them in favor of some alternative method.



Oh, I will be the first one to point out their merits and advantages, as well as the first to point out their defects. I think the 12 Step model (disregarding the God versus human debate) is not intrinsically bad, and those organizations have several customs and cultural traits which make them highly meritorious and well-functioning. The problem at least in AA is its literature and dogma. The rejection of the power of people and their capability to improve their own lives, and the rejection of the validity of anything not God-centered, severely limit its range of appeal and effectiveness. Its overarching message and orientation grievously sabotage it, and they are overall extremely unwilling to adapt and modernize. Would you want your psychotherapist to treat you using 1930's medical texts and theories?



Bethari said:


> I think that part of AA is off-putting for many people. It's hard to try to change something if you think you have no control over it.



I'm not actually sure what was intended when Bill W. and his contemporaries created the 1st Step and used the word "powerless". To me, it's not really an assertion that one is totally and utterly incapable of helping themselves, but that there will never be such a thing as successful usage of alcohol or whatever else the addiction is. If an alcoholic drinks, alcohol will win every time, and there is nothing which will change that. That's what it means to me and I would imagine most people in such programs. 

Since there's ambiguity about that and there's pre-existing friction between some people and 12 Step due to the literature, however, that is indeed another reason people dislike going there, whether it's rightful or not.


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## bacterium (Nov 7, 2016)

Okay. I'm gonna power level quite a bit here. But that's kind of what this thread is about, right? 

My addiction is alcohol. Which is why I know about acamprosate and naltrexone (via third party). 
I am going to group 3 times a week, one-to-one counseling once a week and meetings when I can. 

That said, it's still a struggle. People who don't have the disease rarely understand, and that makes it worse. I could ramble on but... 


Tl:dr 
I'm an alcoholic. I hung out with my ex today who is addicted to meth. 

She originally told me she didn't want to get better, but today she was more open to it. She mentioned marriage and family (I honestly don't know if it was directed at me) 

I want her to get better, but I don't want to be forceful. I'm trying to get her to go to meetings with me... 

What do?


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## Caesare (Nov 9, 2016)

bacterium said:


> I want her to get better, but I don't want to be forceful. I'm trying to get her to go to meetings with me...
> 
> What do?



That isn't power leveling at all. Don't listen to that nonsense, people overuse that term here. What you are asking is completely relevant to the discussion going on. You aren't revealing embarrassing personal information on a completely unrelated topic, this whole thread has been about alcoholism, addiction, AA/NA, etcetera.

I don't know you or your girl, but I am always happy to hear that someone who suffers from this is doing something proactive about it, getting the help they need.

Maybe try and talk your girl into going to one meeting with you. Tell her they are only an hour long, she doesn't have to speak or anything. Just see if she will come with you and listen. I think a lot of people get intimidated walking into a room of strangers and talking about such personal issues, but she doesn't have to talk.

Once she hears some of the other people's stories and anecdotes, there is a possibility that she will like what she is hearing. Maybe she will want to attend a few more meetings just to listen. She will start seeing familiar faces at the meetings, the people who attend AA/NA are typically (in my experience) very friendly and outgoing, and especially welcome to newcomers. Once she gets comfortable with the people, maybe she will want to share her story too.

Everybody is different, but we aren't as unique as we sometimes think. Most people experience the same exact things and have the same thoughts from time to time. My experiences have been positive because of the wide variety of people that attend AA/NA. You have people just getting out the penitentiary trying to get their mind right. You have police officers, businessmen and women, wealthy people, middle class and poor people, politicians, college kids, educated people. Addiction and alcoholism surely does not discriminate.

Listening to a variety of people's experience and the wisdom they can share can be very helpful. Just try and talk her into attending one meeting with you to see what its all about. After all, its only one hour of her time and she may actual get something out of it. The worst that can happen is she doesn't dig it and she won't want to return, which is fine. Maybe she isn't ready yet.

When I first attended AA and NA meetings, it was a court ordered and a condition of my probation because of an old drug charge from 10 years ago. I didn't know what to expect in there. I thought it was going to be bums and the dregs of society, but it isn't that at all. I found welcoming people who seemed genuinely interested in helping each other out. I've seen people who were a little more well off loan people money, pay members light bills if they were broke, its crazy the generosity you can see in a good group.

These people become like a second family to one another. I will say though, as soon as I fulfilled my 2 meetings a week during my probation period, I never went back for years and years. One day, I felt the need to go back, Idk why, something in my brain or my soul just pushed me in that direction, and I will say this, its a completely different experience going on your own accord as opposed to being ordered to go by a court or a probation officer.

When I attend meetings now, I get much more out of them than I did when I was forced to go, merely attending and going through the motions robotically because I was forced to. It's not easy to explain, but it feels like I understand it better now that its my choice to go.

Anyway, I wish you and your girl the best with your issues, and I hope your girl gives it some thought and attends a meeting with you. You can get well if you work hard at it and seek help every where you can get it. Don't just try one method, give them all a shot. And for the love of God, try not to burn anymore bridges. That was always my problem. I had good friends trying shake some sense in me when I was a dumb youth but I told them to screw off because of course, I knew better lol.

Addiction is a mfer man, but you can overcome it. Good luck!!!


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Nov 9, 2016)

bacterium said:


> I'm an alcoholic. I hung out with my ex today who is addicted to meth.



It can be very difficult when both partners have addictions and have a tenuous grasp on sobriety. I've also heard from multiple people with experience in this general area that meth is the most difficult addiction to deal with, because the drug is so powerful and the effects from abuse of it are so extensive and persistent. Alcoholism is apparently relatively easy to address in comparison to meth addiction.



bacterium said:


> I want her to get better, but I don't want to be forceful. I'm trying to get her to go to meetings with me...



Even though her DoC is different from yours, it's highly risky for someone early in recovery to have a significant other who is in active addiction. She might inadvertently threaten your sobriety unless she enters recovery as well. I'm not advocating any decision regarding that, but it's a factor you should contemplate, preferably while also seeking the advice of people in recovery alongside you.

On the matter of meetings... I would suggest diplomatically imploring her to attend meetings with you, but only after you ponder heavily the exact wording and such, and after seeking advice from others. Don't be too timid when bringing the matter up, but don't make her feel needlessly defensive or agitated by being too forceful or forthright. Remember that, especially while she's on meth, she's not going to be the most rational and level-headed person. She seems to at least recognize her meth use is problematic, which is a rather critical component in voluntary recovery attempts.

Also, if you two are going to pursue the 12 Step options, remember that each of you can go to the other's primary fellowship generally. If she wants to not drink, she qualifies for membership in AA. If you want to not use alcohol or other drugs, you qualify for CMA membership. You two don't have to attend meetings separately. That said, meetings have varying tolerances of addictions other than their primary focus being mentioned, and are free to discriminate in that regard. I would suggest looking for clubhouses which have a variety of fellowships there. Some meetings/clubhouses are very, very fixated on AA and alcoholism, and will respond badly to a person even mentioning something besides alcohol (it's a terrible attitude, but it does prevail in some corners of AA). Some are fine with all sorts of addicts mixing together and mentioning something besides that meeting's primary DoC.

Also, non-12 Step programs like SMART or LifeRing deal with multiple types of addictions, so both of you could go to those without any fear at all of not "qualifying". If you want 12 Step without God, you might be near a We Agnostics/secular AA meeting or two. 



Coleman Francis said:


> Just try and talk her into attending one meeting with you to see what its all about. After all, its only one hour of her time and she may actual get something out of it. The worst that can happen is she doesn't dig it and she won't want to return, which is fine.



Actually, I suggest several meetings are attended at different times and places. It's very bad if someone bases their attitude and future attendance on one particular meeting due to sheer variances and diversity. A good group/meeting might be mediocre or bad once in a while, or someone might happen to choose a group which is too rigid/liberal for their tastes. Clubhouses and meetings have varying cultures and customs, not just on "primary purpose" issues, but on all sorts of other matters.


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## Caesare (Nov 10, 2016)

Field Marshal Crappenberg said:


> Actually, I suggest several meetings are attended at different times and places. It's very bad if someone bases their attitude and future attendance on one particular meeting due to sheer variances and diversity. A good group/meeting might be mediocre or bad once in a while, or someone might happen to choose a group which is too rigid/liberal for their tastes. Clubhouses and meetings have varying cultures and customs, not just on "primary purpose" issues, but on all sorts of other matters.




That is actually really good advice. I only suggested getting her to go to that first meeting with that gentleman to "get over the hump" and find out about what they really are about. Good call though.


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## aerostar88 (Nov 11, 2016)

Spoiler: degenerate drug using scum



I like drugs, just rarely. They can be a good time and a bad time. If you're able to do them occasionally, they can be a pretty neutral entity in your life. I went to college, I work in my field, and have a great relationship with my family, who are relatively aware of the way I am with drugs, and how I've been in the past. I somehow managed to get into a comfortable spot in life, and smoking pot really does help me not do other things that are more harmful to me.

It's easy to get addicted to any drug when you're unhappy. They were an actual problem for me when I was younger. I seem to be able to manage doing things occasionally now and leaving it at that. NA is helpful temporarily. The whole do 90 meetings in 90 days thing is a decent tactic. That being said, staying there forever will only hold you back and make you afraid to make all sorts of benign choices. Much easier to get treatment for the underlying reason you use the drug habitually. Support groups are great, I love them. But ones without pseudo-religious messages were better for me personally.

Meetings and treatments don't do it for everyone though. I've seen enough of my old friends practically lose their minds doing cocaine constantly. If drug problems were something simple to understand, they'd be simple to fix. When someone's identity is consumed by their addiction, they can be extremely hard to be around. It's an especially painful situation when it's a close friend.

In an unrelated note, some of the biggest lolcows I went to high school with were the ones who called people "druggies" if they smoked cigarettes or drank. That word still cracks me up to this day.


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Nov 12, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> That is actually really good advice. I only suggested getting her to go to that first meeting with that gentleman to "get over the hump" and find out about what they really are about. Good call though.



There have been some meetings I've sat in which caused me to think to myself, "Oh, I really hope no newcomers are here. This would be a horrible first meeting to be in.". And that's happened with many people. They come into a shitshow for their first meeting, and then never come back. That's not reasonable, of course, but people aren't in a good state if they're needing help with drinking/using.



aerostar88 said:


> That being said, staying there forever will only hold you back and make you afraid to make all sorts of benign choices. Much easier to get treatment for the underlying reason you use the drug habitually.



While emotional dysfunction definitely can be the direct cause of someone abusing substances or going back to using them, people with genuine and full addiction/alcoholism cannot moderate even when everything is splendid. Some people just have that disease and the only solution is abstinence. Going back to the first part of your comment, I do think some in recovery are overly self-critical or view any of their excesses as a symptom of their disease.


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## Heimdallr (Nov 14, 2016)

I have experienced addicitions. They exist to compensate for something. They fill a hole we have in our lives.

The best way to combat addictions is to find out what your "hole" is and figure out how to fill it.

The hole will be filled one way or another. I have often experienced loneliness and disatisfaction in my relationships. That is one of the reasons I got facebook in the first place, to spy upon and envy those whose lives I envied.

It turned into an addictiong, and for years I have suffered from envy, and lack of satisfaction in relationships. I realize however that facebook is pure, voyeuristic poison and I have permanently deleted it. It is an odd feeling not having it for the first time in 8 years, but I feel it's time has come.

I have now learned to develop the relationships I have, not those I wish I had ( or believe I should have had.) 

Find your hole. Fill it with good stuff, not junk


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## ICametoLurk (Nov 14, 2016)

Heimdallr said:


> Find your hole. Fill it with good stuff


like cummies.


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## DirkBloodStormKing (Nov 15, 2016)

Isn't it very common for victims of child abuse, especially child sexual abuse and victims of domestic violence and/or rape to have addictions to deal with the emotional pain and even the PTSD they have from the trauma. Of course not all addicts are abuse victims but from what I researched a very large percentage of them have dealt with some kind of traumatic experience as a child or even as an adult. But I do believe most addiction problems can be treated better with more mental health awareness and realizing that child abuse (especially if it is sexual or physical abuse) and other traumatic experiences can be a major factor that can trigger substance abuse and other severe mental health problems.


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## Caesare (Nov 15, 2016)

DirkBloodStormKing said:


> Isn't it very common for victims of child abuse, especially child sexual abuse and victims of domestic violence and/or rape to have addictions to deal with the emotional pain and even the PTSD they have from the trauma. Of course not all addicts are abuse victims but from what I researched a very large percentage of them have dealt with some kind of traumatic experience as a child or even as an adult. But I do believe most addiction problems can be treated better with more mental health awareness and realizing that child abuse (especially if it is sexual or physical abuse) and other traumatic experiences can be a major factor that can trigger substance abuse and other severe mental health problems.




Yes, I believe that to be the case for many people. Not everybody of course, but I believe a large number of them have had those type of problems as youths or even as adults as you said.




Spoiler



My immediate family is great, I have nothing bad to say about them even though my father and I had some issues when I was younger. Nothing creepy like that, you deviants, but he used to work late most nights, drink (rarely to never inside the home though), and go out on the weekends with his friends throughout my whole childhood. That's not to say that he didn't spend time with us, but the dude drank, had a lot of stress from raising four kids, three with my mother (who is a Saint) and my half-sister he had custody of from a prior marriage.

Sometimes, on a Saturday or a Sunday morning, probably having a hellish hangover, he had to deal with four young, loud kids. I was one of the middle kids (and probably the most eager to please my parents, my oldest biological brother was fucking hell-on-wheels lol. He was the one always failing in school, getting notes home from the teachers, getting in fights with the neighborhood kids, sleeping with the neighborhood girls, breaking shit, breaking laws, doing just about everything you could think of to piss off a parent.

My mother punished him, and the rest of us when we got out of line, but I don't remember her ever really hitting us. Maybe a spanking or something when we were kids, but never anything severe.

All-in-all, I had a very happy childhood and I loved my parents dearly, particularly my mother.

One of my earliest bad memories from when I was about ten years old, my oldest biological brother, who was probably very close to 18 at the time, got kicked out of his school, had a neighborhood girl's parents come over and inform my mother and father that he knocked her up (she was only 14) and that if he didn't pay for the abortion that they were going to press charges for statutory rape (even though her stupid hippy pothead parents were perfectly fine with them dating in the first place and KNEW the fucking age differences (My parents didn't, btw, my brother lied and told them she was 16.

Well, lol, all this happened in a period of about 3 days, and needless to say, my father was PISSED!!!! After the girl's parents left, he beat the shit out of my brother, which, let's be perfectly honest, he deserved.

But this is what fucked me up. After he was finished with my brother, I remember him coming into my room and just start berating me for completely unrelated things that I used to do that were SEVERELY minor compared to the things he was just dealing with like, "you don't do the dishes enough" "You don't eat right" "You should do better in school "etc. etc. but never anything even remotely serious.

I made one smart ass comment to him during the verbal berating and he punched me so hard in the face that it knocked me out cold. He used to beat us before, but never like that. It was painful, sure, but the worse thing about it was the confusion and the fear that I felt around him after that for years and years. Even when I got older and bigger and could probably take him in a fight lol, for a long time, whenever he would raise his voice for any reason, I would feel like that little pissy eyed crybaby again lol. It took me a long time to get over that.

I don't think this singular event turned me to drinking or drugs, but it certainly was memorable. I definitely think a young girl getting abused/molested by an uncle but especially a father would have a MUCH MUCH worse mental effect on her and could very possibly turn her to alcohol, drugs, suicide, severe depression, etc. All that and more. Just based on how long I remembered that seemingly insignificant event in the grand scheme of things... I couldn't even imagine being a female who was taken advantage of by a family member who is supposed to protect them, and to love/cherish them.

What makes those horrible situations worse is the fact that when you hear about such cases in the news, oftentimes the mother sides with the father/boyfriend against her own fucking flesh and blood daughter because she is too afraid to lose her meal ticket. Ugh, that is so enraging. I wouldn't know personally, but that had to be ALMOST as bad as the abuse itself, to have your own mother calling you a lair and taking the predator's side. 

That is why I have zero sympathy for sex offenders like that, ESPECIALLY when it's a family member (or anyone for that matter) who abuses a very young girl like that. They deserve all the punishment that the law allows and then some, in my opinion.





TL/DR If you didn't read that incredible embarrassing, incredible long story. I don't know why people turn to drinking/using as adults. My family was pretty solid, we never went hungry, the light bill always got paid, we weren't wealthy but we had all the essentials. But I do truly believe that people don't turn into alcoholics (and I'm not talking about social drinkers. By alcoholics, I mean those people who have to drink every night and often during the day too or they get the shakes) for no reason. I believe something happened in their lives which made them turn into that, whatever that thing is, probably something tragic that they never got over.

 Just like drugs, nobody just starts sticking a needle in their arm just because they want to get loaded, something made them that way, made them turn to those things.

But yeah, I agree wholeheartedly what you said, DirkBloodStormKing. Something made these people that way.


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## keksz (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm not sure that abuse is a direct cause to drug use. There's certainly a relationship but I think is indirect: families and societies who let children get abused, by lack of oversight or simply having no one around that really cares and nurture the child are also probably the types of families and societies who will care even less when that child victim grows to become a broken adult, often unable to function properly in society.

A youngster who grows to become an outcast and later on a dysfunctional adult is orders of magnitude more likely to be exposed to drugs, fringe groups, crime and the like while those that had a happy childhood are more likely to grow up sheltered, with healthier hobbies, activities and mindsets that keep them away from the more extreme facets of society. 

I don't mean to say abused children grow up to be criminals or that healthy children can't grow up to become serial killers or mass murderers. What I'm trying to say is that the same set of circumstances that will lead to a child to being abused is the same set of circumstances that is likely to lead an adult into an alternative and possibly degenerate lifestyle. That makes much more sense to me than saying that child abuse leads (directly) to drug addiction as a means of coping.

Having said that, I do believe that the ones that are able to beat the odds can certainly become very strong and independent people and often achieve much more in life than most people. Conversely, I've known a lot of sheltered people too that I wouldn't be caught dead hanging out with- the sort of egotistical, oblivious or plain just boring people you'll see come out of private schools or who have had their parents money handed over to them on a plate from birth...


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## Save Goober (Nov 17, 2016)

bacterium said:


> Okay. I'm gonna power level quite a bit here. But that's kind of what this thread is about, right?
> 
> My addiction is alcohol. Which is why I know about acamprosate and naltrexone (via third party).
> I am going to group 3 times a week, one-to-one counseling once a week and meetings when I can.
> ...


It's really hard to have a discussion about addiction without powerlevelling. Almost everyone knows or is an addict, and very few people know the science behind it, so without personal stories the entire discussion would just be "I think addiction is bad" or "drugs seem pretty cool" over and over.

Two addicts being together, unless you are really stable that just seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I would try to encourage her when you can, but as I'm sure you know, you can lead a horse to water, etc.



Heimdallr said:


> Find your hole. Fill it with good stuff


Not interested in becoming a sex addict, fam

My biggest issue with being sober atm is just being fucking bored.


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## bacterium (Nov 18, 2016)

melty said:


> It's really hard to have a discussion about addiction without powerlevelling. Almost everyone knows or is an addict, and very few people know the science behind it, so without personal stories the entire discussion would just be "I think addiction is bad" or "drugs seem pretty cool" over and over.
> 
> Two addicts being together, unless you are really stable that just seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I would try to encourage her when you can, but as I'm sure you know, you can lead a horse to water, etc.
> 
> ...



Well, I saw her again tonight. And it was clear there was nothing between us. Would I like there to be? Yes. But my first priority is my and her sobriety.

We are just friends for now.

She did ask me about going to meetings together, so that is some progress I suppose.

And getting her sober is a good reason for me to stay the course


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## Field Marshal Crappenberg (Nov 19, 2016)

Heimdallr said:


> It turned into an addictiong, and for years I have suffered from envy, and lack of satisfaction in relationships. I realize however that facebook is pure, voyeuristic poison and I have permanently deleted it. It is an odd feeling not having it for the first time in 8 years, but I feel it's time has come.



Whether it's a full and diagnosable addiction or a negative tendency, you have to do whatever is necessary to eliminate or weaken it if it's that destructive. If the only remedy is complete avoidance, so be it.

Also, off-topic, but, I mentally read your post in Trump's voice because of your avatar. Is anyone else here influenced in that way by a poster's icon?




ICametoLurk said:


> like cummies.



This comment and your avatar wonderfully compliment each other.




Coleman Francis said:


> Just like drugs, nobody just starts sticking a needle in their arm just because they want to get loaded, something made them that way, made them turn to those things.
> 
> 
> But yeah, I agree wholeheartedly what you said, DirkBloodStormKing. Something made these people that way.



Substance abuse and addiction (the two are actually different) are very complicated subjects and I would rather not write an essay here explaining all of the differences and factors and possibilities. My very succinct response to that is, sometimes people who were otherwise well emotionally really did just start drinking or using drugs because they were curious or wanted to feel better. Something internally was then activated and they were abnormally fixated on it ever since. Of course, some people do turn to substances to medicate trauma such as yours, and I believe with enough abuse someone can become an alcoholic/addict without being born with that predisposition.

Whether someone's a born or made addict/alcoholic is difficult to say and varies from person to person, but certainly those born ones who have trauma or psychological disorders are very likely to try to medicate them, which activates that inborn disease and then reinforces it.




Dynastia said:


> every single one of you is going to stay addicted to whatever you're addicted to
> 
> every single one of you is going to die addicted to whatever you're addicted to
> 
> i don't even know you all and i can say that with absolute certainty because i know you're sad weaklings with no hope for self-improvement



I had believed I was redeemable until you pointed out I was vermin, and thus rated your post Informative. I shall get drunk and high on everything known to man after I send this, in light of your revelation.




melty said:


> It's really hard to have a discussion about addiction without powerlevelling. Almost everyone knows or is an addict, and very few people know the science behind it, so without personal stories the entire discussion would just be "I think addiction is bad" or "drugs seem pretty cool" over and over.



Well, there are multiple reasons someone could have a heightened familiarity with this topic. People in the medical and psychological professions need to attend some AA meetings to better understand AA and addiction. Psych professionals are trained to understand addiction and do a lot of research. Some live with an addict and thus are highly familiarized with the process and disease. I've never actually disclosed whether I'm a recovered alcoholic (though it'd be the most likely reason), only that I know a great deal about this subject.

That being said, the thread is relevant to people discussing their addictions and is in a different sub-forum from the lolcow one, so it's not really powerleveling to disclose one's battles with addiction here if it's done tastefully.




melty said:


> My biggest issue with being sober atm is just being fucking bored.



There are so many things you could do with your time. You just aren't aware of them and have no inspirations to indulge. There must be aspects of your life that are deficient and could be improved with planning, time, and energy. You must have areas of interest you have wanted to better understand. You could write about various subjects. You could even just purchase and play games you haven't been able to if you're too lethargic or anxious to do anything productive. There are so many things you could be doing. I'm always engaged in work on one thing or another and wish I had more time and stamina to do them, and to relax.




Jesus said:


> boring shitfastia shitpost



You do understand that angrily and impulsively responding to trolls just magnifies their desire to troll you right?


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## WW 635 (Nov 20, 2016)

All this infighting while we're ignoring who the real enemy is here: Addiction. The best thing to do to make you feel better is to get it all off of your chest, right here in this thread, and then pm me your contact info so I can be of further assistance. Kiwifarms is here for you, fam.


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## bacterium (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm gonna revive a dead topic here.. 

I am currently doing day treatment. And sometime (early, hopefully) next month, I will be starting inpatient. Funding is a bitch, which is ridiculous. Especially when you live in a state like WI where addiction is rampant, and alcoholism is accepted. 
The 12 steps/AA doesn't exactly gel with me, so I think I am going to look more into SMART Recovery


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## Save Goober (Dec 27, 2016)

I feel really shitty and relapsed. I hope I don't get fired. They would be really screwed if they fired me but if they could they should.
I played it off as holiday stress/miscellaneous autism... shockingly I'm still one of the more competent people, not that other people are incompetent, I'm just good at my job.


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## WW 635 (Dec 27, 2016)

bacterium said:


> I'm gonna revive a dead topic here..
> 
> I am currently doing day treatment. And sometime (early, hopefully) next month, I will be starting inpatient. Funding is a bitch, which is ridiculous. Especially when you live in a state like WI where addiction is rampant, and alcoholism is accepted.
> The 12 steps/AA doesn't exactly gel with me, so I think I am going to look more into SMART Recovery


AA/NA 12 step programs come across as cultish and forces a person to still focus on their addiction, never letting them escape it imo. Never heard of SMART though. Mind elaborating a bit?



melty said:


> I feel really shitty and relapsed. I hope I don't get fired. They would be really screwed if they fired me but if they could they should.
> I played it off as holiday stress/miscellaneous autism... shockingly I'm still one of the more competent people, not that other people are incompetent, I'm just good at my job.


Don't think of it as a relapse but a little slip up and keep moving forward.


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## saraheasy (May 16, 2019)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> _Powerlevel alert:_ I recently realized that I'm addicted to sugar. Yes this exists. I became kinda fat I thought it was stress but nope. I stoped eating junk food a few days ago. It sucks but I would always overeat and had bad stomach pain the next day. I just can't eat a piece of cake or pizza like normal people. One bite and I there suddenly is a pressure to eat more and more. So I quit. Don't think I can eat like a normal person ever again. But at least I lose that weight and stay healthy.
> 
> That's why I hate HAES, gainers, feedees and so on. These guys don't just "like" food. If you always overat you are addicted. They glorify their fucking addiction.




I have the same problem. Once I start eating sugar, I cannot stop. So I quit only two weeks ago when realized that it a real psychological and physiological problem. People say I am crazy cause I don't eat sugar even in small amount, but I know that if I do, I won't be able to control myself. It's a real addiction, can't believe I didn't confess it to myself earlier. Now I have all the symptoms of sugar withdrawal described here https://addictionresource.com/addiction/sugar-addiction/ which proves once again that I am truly addicted. Others just don't realise they are addicts too.


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## eternal dog mongler (May 16, 2019)

bacterium said:


> I'm gonna revive a dead topic here..
> 
> I am currently doing day treatment. And sometime (early, hopefully) next month, I will be starting inpatient. Funding is a bitch, which is ridiculous. Especially when you live in a state like WI where addiction is rampant, and alcoholism is accepted.
> The 12 steps/AA doesn't exactly gel with me, so I think I am going to look more into SMART Recovery



There are (if you live in a major metro area) AA groups for atheists and agnostics. Search around for free thinker groups, that's what they call themselves.


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## Slappy McGherkin (May 24, 2019)

eternal dog mongler said:


> There are (if you live in a major metro area) AA groups for atheists and agnostics. Search around for free thinker groups, that's what they call themselves.



Interesting thread. Not much I can add. Neil Young probably said it best - "I've seen the needle and the damage done. A little part of it in everyone; every junkie's like a setting sun."

I've fought addiction my entire life. You feel good, then you hate yourself. Joining the Navy at 20 years old probably saved my sorry ass from the same fate as my junkie friends in the small town I grew up in. The shit that I've seen...

But the only thing that got me to ripe old age was sheer willpower that being a junkie is NOT who I am. AA? Fuggidaboudit. The times that I backslid, I kicked myself in the ass and pulled myself back out of it. 

Today? I've accepted the fact that I'm an addict. It's simply shifted gears from illegal drugs to a couple of vodkas every night. I don't need a recovery, I don't need an intervention, I accepted who and what I am a long time ago. Comfortably numb.


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## The Pink Panther (Feb 20, 2020)

Ok, I got an actual question here.

A guy came to my uni today to tell his story about drug recovery and shit and I had this on my mind. Who's at fault when using drugs? The drugs or the drug addict? This is a similar argument one can maintain for guns, you know? Is it the gun or the person using the gun? The drugs/guns can be dangerous, but why put restrictions on them when it's the fault of the people for using them without self-control or moderation? Shouldn't the person know their limits or whatnot when using something that they know can be a danger? Why do we place blame on the source instead of the consumer of the source?


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## JULAY (Feb 20, 2020)

The addict is responsible for his or her own behavior, intoxicated or not. However, if drugs were legal writ large, people would be able to support their addictions without having to resort to crime to do so, in most cases anyway. It's your body, who the fuck is some government to say what you can or can't put into it?


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## ScamL Likely (Feb 20, 2020)

Hitler is responsible.


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## Nephi (Feb 20, 2020)

Do Addicts Have The Right Idea But The Wrong Means?


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## soft kitty (Feb 20, 2020)

I'm not unsympathetic to drug addicts but they made their choice, they have to live with the consequences, aint nobody to blame but themselves. There are infinite resources available to people who want to get help with drug addition; but you have to want it, we can't force you.


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## DJ Grelle (Feb 20, 2020)

We should not try to revive drug overdoses.


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## Gravityqueen4life (Feb 20, 2020)

they only Addiction i have is video games.

but drugs are bad hmmmmk.


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## mr.moon1488 (Feb 20, 2020)

People don't like to hear it but a lot of the problem comes from society itself.  Most of the people who turn to drugs are people who just couldn't hack it in normal society.  Like it or not, modern society is actually sociopathic and you'll almost never see anyone doing a basic kindness unless they want you to see them doing that basic kindness.


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## muh_moobs (Feb 20, 2020)

JULAY said:


> The addict is responsible for his or her own behavior, intoxicated or not. However, if drugs were legal writ large, people would be able to support their addictions without having to resort to crime to do so, in most cases anyway. It's your body, who the fuck is some government to say what you can or can't put into it?



Then why do some alcoholics "resort" to crime if the issue is legal availability?

Clearly addicts are responsible. No one forces these people to consume poison, they do so willingly. And this is a day and age where drug abuse education begins in elementary school, so it's not exactly like people are uninformed about the risks any more.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Feb 20, 2020)

"who is responsible, the drug addict with a brain, willpower, and agency, or the drugs, an inanimate pile of chemicals that cannot think or do anything"

Yeah, this is a Deep Thoughts thread all right.


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## A Cardboard Box (Feb 20, 2020)

mr.moon1488 said:


> People don't like to hear it but a lot of the problem comes from society itself.  Most of the people who turn to drugs are people who just couldn't hack it in normal society.  Like it or not, modern society is actually sociopathic and you'll almost never see anyone doing a basic kindness unless they want you to see them doing that basic kindness.


That's wrong and stupid. People do nice things all the time, especially in the US. 

Quit being a shutin edgelord.


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## Lina Colorado (Feb 20, 2020)

Um, the addicts enviorment can be at fault too, sure.. But the addicts is definitly 90 % responsible for using.


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## spurger king (Feb 20, 2020)

> why put restrictions on them when it's the fault of the people for using them without self-control or moderation?


Drugs inherently compromise people's ability to control themselves. I'm a big fan of letting people make decisions for themselves, but selling meth or something is inherently harmful to society and shouldn't be allowed.


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## Pickle Inspector (Feb 20, 2020)

One thing that annoys me is when somebody claims they have an addictive personality as if that is a real thing that stops them from being personally responsible for their actions.


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## Homo Demens (Feb 20, 2020)

It's like blaming food for making Amberlynn fat. The more important question is why and how someone becomes an addict in the first place. Some of that shit is out of desperation (coping with an illness be it mental, etc.) while others do it cause they're fucking stupid.


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## The Pink Panther (Feb 20, 2020)

Varg Did Nothing Wrong said:


> "who is responsible, the drug addict with a brain, willpower, and agency, or the drugs, an inanimate pile of chemicals that cannot think or do anything"
> 
> Yeah, this is a Deep Thoughts thread all right.


It's a matter of perspective....


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## Angel Dust (Feb 21, 2020)

Drinking (working on that)
Food (working on that)
Internet (not working on that)


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## Childe (Feb 22, 2020)

I’ve got a wicked addiction to alcohol. Hopefully I don’t go full Amy Winehouse. I need to learn self-control and stop being a pussy.


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## Stormy Daniel's Lawyer (Feb 22, 2020)

I stopped drinking alcohol 30 years ago after my first son was born. I stopped smoking cigarettes last year though I do vape..I had used various forms of tobacco for over 40 years. The drinking part was much easier than smoking..Vaping has saved my life because I had gotten up to 2 packs a day, and I had been a serial chain smoker for at least the last 5 years. I do smoke some weed on the rare occasion when my body is really hurting.

I have struggled with addictive shit, but I was forced to meet it head on due to some health reasons (nothing major) and I was blessed with my first grandchild. So far I'm winning the war..

For those of you who out there are struggling with whatever..I will keep you all in my thoughts..Stay strong and you will persevere.


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## Catman from cat town (Feb 25, 2020)

Talking about who is responsible, the drug or the addict? I think about what I tell myself when I’ve lapsed on my sobriety. I don’t blame anything or anyone but myself because in the end, I chose to drink.

That being said, I don’t let myself feel ashamed after I blame myself, I take it as a learning experience by looking into what could have influenced me for the bad or for the good. I’ll talk with my therapist and some people close to me to get advice to try to prevent another lapse too.

This is my personal take, however, so I can’t speak for others.


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## Sweetpeaa (Aug 31, 2020)

Homo Demens said:


> It's like blaming food for making Amberlynn fat. The more important question is why and how someone becomes an addict in the first place. Some of that shit is out of desperation (coping with an illness be it mental, etc.) while others do it cause they're fucking stupid.



Let's not compare food addiction to to drugs. It's easy to think it comes from the same type of thing but it doesn't. Obese binge eaters have a compulsive problem. Drug addicts in many cases had exposure to a certain kind of substance in their youths and became immersed in it. Even people who come from good families, have ''this'' and ''that'' going for them can go down the rabbit hole once they make the decision to start using. I used to think drug addicts had emotional or compulsive problems too, but I don't think this as much after coming across many cases where it's apparent that it's actually the other way around.


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## Mrs Paul (Sep 3, 2020)

Food doesn't become a physical addiction like some drugs do, though.  (Well, granted you need food to live, of course, but you don't need crack or booze to live -- quite the opposite)

And when people say "addictive personality", they generally mean that it's more emotional -- people glom onto drugs and shit to help them cope.  A lot of times, it does tend to run in families.


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## Buffy the SJW slayer (Sep 4, 2020)

I definitely think that addiction has a genetic component whether its something chemical or a type of anxiety/depression/OCD/self-destructiveness in someone's temperament or both. I once knew someone from a long line of alcoholics who never touched a drop of alcohol in his life. He didn't want to risk awakening whatever 'demon' or gene he may or may not have received from his family.



Sweetpeaa said:


> Let's not compare food addiction to to drugs. It's easy to think it comes from the same type of thing but it doesn't. Obese binge eaters have a compulsive problem. Drug addicts in many cases had exposure to a certain kind of substance in their youths and became immersed in it. Even people who come from good families, have ''this'' and ''that'' going for them can go down the rabbit hole once they make the decision to start using. I used to think drug addicts had emotional or compulsive problems too, but I don't think this as much after coming across many cases where it's apparent that it's actually the other way around.



I think food addiction can be valid if we are talking about McDonalds, Burger King, KFC and all the other processed foods. They are designed in labs and engineered to be addictive. I think the global obesity crisis (exclusively from fast foods rather than fruits or vegetables for example) attests to this.


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