# How do we solve the problem of Islam without violence or acceptance of there intolerant views?



## ApatheticViewer (Jun 6, 2019)

I've seriously been *racking my mind with this. 

the SJW Left thinks we should just passively accept Islam which is insane considering just there treatment of women and non believers. Along with constant beheadings and rape gangs 

Meanwhile 8chan alt righters are meming Brenton Tarrant and actively endorsing more Muslim attacks. 

How do we find middle ground here? *


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## MG 620 (Jun 6, 2019)

There is only one solution:

Brianna Wu.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 6, 2019)

Honestly if you just keep the little shits out of your country they'll kill each other keep each other entertained.  The less we do business with them as well, the better - the moment the ME's oil wells run dry they're gonna fucking die horribly at each other's hands.

Oh, we let them in already? Ha, we're fucked.


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## Bunny Tracks (Jun 6, 2019)

Something I think we could do is have them integrate more. This is rather difficult do to how much they isolate themselves. 

What I think could be done is help people who want to integrate, or break free of Islam's more barbaric beliefs, but can't do fear of retaliation from family or community is have a place where they could go where there'll be safe. Sort of like a Wittness Protection program, or a domestic abuse shelter. I have no doubt that there are tons of muslims, mostly women, who have this problem. Those people need someone they can tell, and a place they can go where they won't get hurt. 

If we can get that done, I'm sure we would see at least some cut back on shit like this.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 6, 2019)

Bunny Tracks said:


> Something I think we could do is have them integrate more. This is rather difficult do to how much they isolate themselves.
> 
> What I think could be done is help people who want to integrate, or break free of Islam's more barbaric beliefs, but can't do fear of retaliation from family or community is have a place where they could go where there'll be safe. Sort of like a Wittness Protection program, or a domestic abuse shelter. I have no doubt that there are tons of muslims, mostly women, who have this problem. Those people need someone they can tell, and a place they can go where they won't get hurt.
> 
> If we can get that done, I'm sure we would see at least some cut back on shit like this.



1. You'd be surprised how many Muslim women are pretty fucking okay with the deal.  Something something chickens voting for Colonel Sanders, but actually more like Stockholm Syndrome combined with some other unidentified ingredient.

2. Anyone who runs an Apostate Protection Program instantly becomes an enemy as bad as or worse than the apostate to hostile Muslims.  Now, before you dismiss that as a "duh" point, look at what they do to other _practicing Muslims_ constantly, and ask yourself what gigantic set of brass fucking balls you'd need to stand between that lunacy DIALED UP EVEN HARDER and a group of apostates.  How many DV shelters are rated for explosive blasts, you think?

3. We already got the best shot at unfucking Islam we're ever going to get in the Ahmadiyya.  Guess what Muslims do to Ahmadis.

They don't want to get better.  They're fucking insane death cultists and their greatest reform made them even MORE hardline and insane.  They reformed in RETROGRADE.  At least the damn Catholics have made little steps forward, the Muslims basically screamed ALLAHU AKBAR and ran a football field in the opposite direction.  You want to fix Islam? Turn Saudi Arabia into a great big sheet of glass, for a start.  The Saudis' uncontested deathgrip on Islam and consequent control over Islam's cultural manifestations for the most part has done so much fucking harm to so many people it seriously cannot be overstated.  There are other major centers for Islam in the world but Saudi Arabia is the dysfunctional abusive granddaddy.


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## Damn Near (Jun 6, 2019)

your fallacy is attempting to discount violence in dealing with them


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 6, 2019)

We convert them to Christianity. Failing that, we convert them to ash if they persist in their conquest.


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## Feline Supremacist (Jun 6, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> 1. You'd be surprised how many Muslim women are pretty fucking okay with the deal.  Something something chickens voting for Colonel Sanders, but actually more like Stockholm Syndrome combined with some other unidentified ingredient.
> 
> The Saudis' uncontested deathgrip on Islam and consequent control over Islam's cultural manifestations for the most part has done so much fucking harm to so many people it seriously cannot be overstated.  There are other major centers for Islam in the world but Saudi Arabia is the dysfunctional abusive granddaddy.


The women are worse than the men tbqh-and I just had a conversation about killing off the Sauds, propping up a more reasonable family like the Rashidis and making a bargain with Iran to buy oil in exchange for having them stfu about their Israel jihad. This won't happen though.


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## NOT Sword Fighter Super (Jun 6, 2019)

Triggered Fivehead said:


> There is only one solution:
> 
> Brianna Wu.


He's got my vote.


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## ApatheticViewer (Jun 6, 2019)

Damn Near said:


> your fallacy is attempting to discount violence in dealing with them



Pfft. I'm frustrated with both sides. One side says "fuck it new holocaust on the stupid towelheads"

The other side says "man let's just form a giant hug around the world" 

That being said at least your insane solution is actually a solution. Hopefully not The Final one tho... I just don't want to accept violence as the only way.


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## ProgKing of the North (Jun 6, 2019)

Exigent Circumcisions said:


> We convert them to Christianity. Failing that, we convert them to ash if they persist in their conquest.


Why necessarily Christianity? Are Hinduism or Buddhism or even atheism not sufficient?


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## Tasty Tatty (Jun 6, 2019)

You can't help the people who don't want to be helped. Most Muslims are quite sure that they're right and we're wrong. 

The only solution should have been done long ago and it's accept that they don't want to adapt nor integrate and, instead, they want to destroy what we already had.




Sprig of Parsley said:


> Honestly if you just keep the little shits out of your country they'll kill each other keep each other entertained.  The less we do business with them as well, the better - the moment the ME's oil wells run dry they're gonna fucking die horribly at each other's hands.
> 
> Oh, we let them in already? Ha, we're fucked.



It was pretty much like this before 9/11. Everybody knew the ME was a shithole and that some people there were awful and abusive to women and children, but somehow still treated them with basic respect and accepted those who were more liberal. I remember clearly how my uncle said, when it was confirmed Osama was behind the attack, that he was a cruel bastard (he knew who he was, I didn't). He didn't say "fuck all muslims!" and I'm sure he didn't even think that way. He said the Talibans were bad people. And I remember most people had that clear.

It was after 9/11 that the whole narrative of how EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM IS PACIFIC AND IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE YOURE A BIGOT started and all the problems we know became mainstream because we were practically forced to accept them all and take them in and ignore all problems they brought.




Sprig of Parsley said:


> 1. You'd be surprised how many Muslim women are pretty fucking okay with the deal.  Something something chickens voting for Colonel Sanders, but actually more like Stockholm Syndrome combined with some other unidentified ingredient.


Many muslim women are convinced they are treated like queens because they don't have to drive as their fathers or husbands hire drivers for them. Slaves not only get to love their chains, but they think they're jewelry if you convince them that they are. 

Also, they're still women and they act like women. The myth of the female sorority is just that, a myth. They are treated like shit but it's fine as long as other women are treated like shit as well and they're kept in their place. Look at older women, who are more conservative than younger muslimas: they're the ones chasing them in the streets for being immodest and beating the hell up of those without hijab. Of course they hate the ones with freedom, just like many muslimas see western women like the ones who are wrong while they're privileged for being "protected" by their families.


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## rooblue (Jun 6, 2019)

We could co-exist if we were able to set clear boundaries, much like dealing with an asshole in your day-to-day life. The trouble is, I think, is the shift away from Christian values in western countries means we're not capable of even setting clear boundaries for ourselves. 

"When in Rome.." only seems to apply to when you're visiting their countries.


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 6, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> Why necessarily Christianity? Are Hinduism or Buddhism or even atheism not sufficient?


Hinduism: fucking LOL
Buddhism: I mean sure, I guess they'll be passive before they go to Hell. 
Atheism: better just to ash or glass them.


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## UA 674 (Jun 6, 2019)

We trust in the power of friendship


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## PL 001 (Jun 6, 2019)

Hope a natural disaster wipes them off the face of the Earth?


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## UA 674 (Jun 6, 2019)

No, no. Better yet, we challenge them...to a children's card game!


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## Vorhtbame (Jun 7, 2019)

Kiomei said:


> No, no. Better yet, we challenge them...to a children's card game!



We activated his trap card!

Anyway, what we do is contaminate all food supplies worldwide with bacon.  The true faithful will refuse to eat, fixing that issue, and the rest will discover that all mankind has in common a love for this delicious fried pork and rethink their life choices.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Jun 7, 2019)

Yahweh will personally rebuke every Muslim on Earth.


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## The Manglement (Jun 7, 2019)

Ehh, the world is fucked anyway, and it's going to be really funny seeing SJWs in a post Islamopocalypse.


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 7, 2019)

Okay, shit posting is out of my system now; 

 Conversion is still on the table but I think we can just quarantine them to their homelands and work on peacefully assimilating/converting the more.... medieval ones we have here. 

  We'd have to drop the cultural relativism bullshit and make a concerted effort to do that, though, so I'm not optimistic.


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## Providence (Jun 7, 2019)

Militant segregation, I suppose.  Keep them in their sandy pit. Don't trade with them,  don't "help" them with governance issues,  and eradicate any tendrils that seep out of the contagion zone.   

Atheists and fags should be permitted asylum.


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## エリス (Jun 7, 2019)

1. Stop fighting wars for Israel that foment hatred toward the west and revenge-based jihadism
2. Stop letting them into our fucking countries.
3. Stop giving a shit how radical they are cause it doesnt effect us anymore.
4. If they still try to invade by force (they probably wont tbh) then fuckin kill em.


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 7, 2019)

Sofonda Cox said:


> Atheists and fags should be permitted asylum.



Never forget that this whole immigration adventure is primarily being pushed by atheists in our countries. We don't really need more of that.

Fags are fine though, I guess.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 7, 2019)

エリス said:


> 1. Stop fighting wars for Israel that foment hatred toward the west and revenge-based jihadism



They'd hate us regardless, honestly.  Not that Israel's really helped there, but I see very little real qualitative difference between "They hate us and want to kill us" and "They REALLY hate us and REALLY want to kill us".  The "business model" (if you will) of Islam centers around bloodshed and conquest to begin with.  Might as well hope to make peace with Genghis Khan.


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## エリス (Jun 7, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> They'd hate us regardless, honestly.  Not that Israel's really helped there, but I see very little real qualitative difference between "They hate us and want to kill us" and "They REALLY hate us and REALLY want to kill us".  The "business model" (if you will) of Islam centers around bloodshed and conquest to begin with.  Might as well hope to make peace with Genghis Khan.


Since the middle ages no one gave a fuck about Islam until the second half of the 21st century. There's a reason for that.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 7, 2019)

エリス said:


> Since the middle ages no one gave a fuck about Islam until the second half of the 21st century. There's a reason for that.


Probably has something to do with being hopelessly inept militarily, more due to ethnic/national trappings than Islam itself.  Idiots with guns and bombs are still dangerous, though not as dangerous as the quislings who keep letting them in.


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## Marco Fucko (Jun 7, 2019)

ApatheticViewer said:


> I've seriously been *racking my mind with this.
> 
> the SJW Left thinks we should just passively accept Islam which is insane considering just there treatment of women and non believers. Along with constant beheadings and rape gangs
> 
> ...



Literally leave them to their homelands and don't do anything. All of this shit exists because of ethnic/sect conflict and arbitrary borders through the middle east. Pull out cold and hard and let them sort themselves out. From the ashes of whatever happens, "true" nations will form and be less unstable.

As for the ones already here, just copy the chinks and shove them into camps.


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## I should be working (Jun 7, 2019)

Okay... So I have this 20 year plan, right.
We need to get Sargon of Akkad elected to the UK govenrment.
Then we need to get Donald Trump to tweet about GamerGate.
After that we need to rub our dicks against as many tranny front holes as possible.
Eventually not even the mulsims will want to live in the west.


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## Providence (Jun 7, 2019)

Exigent Circumcisions said:


> Never forget that this whole immigration adventure is primarily being pushed by atheists in our countries. We don't really need more of that.
> 
> Fags are fine though, I guess.


Hmmm, I don't think the average atheist wants more superstition, particularly a superstition that orders atheists killed. Perhaps you're referring to globalists with complex motives and dual citizenship?


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## crocodilian (Jun 7, 2019)

There is no rehabilitating Islam, nor Muslims. At its core, Islam is a human plague that should be eradicated.

The Quran, Muhammad, and Sharia are all very clear on being a warfare doctrine. Anyone who tells you "peaceful Islam" exists is a lunatic, a new-age phony and very likely to take a trip off a nearby rooftop (courtesy of the _actual_ Muslims.) Don't believe me? Read the Quran, it will tell you outright that Islam's one goal is violent conquest; to conquer all others and convert them to Islam. Conversion by caliph order, jihad by brigands, or lone wolf jihad. "Mujahid" for those too lazy to specify which of the three. You don't co-exist with Islam. You follow it, you get killed by it, or you kill it yourself.

And when the enemy is too powerful to jihad? Hijrah, or "migration"; the act of seeking refuge in your enemy's territory, preying on his empathy, and then out-breeding him with your many wives. Muslims only marry (and thus breed with) Muslims; those who disobey are killed by their own. Then when Islam outnumbers the natives, enforce Sharia... violently, of course. For extra effectiveness, have your cronies commit mujahid, then when your enemy retaliates, use it as an excuse for hijrah.

By now you might realize what a fetid, weaselly, pathetic, two-faced, evil belief system Islam actually is, and how much of a worthless fucking cunt Muhammad was. You might also realize Brent didn't do anything wrong, especially when the place he shot up produced two terrorists in the past (good luck finding that information on Google.) tl;dr it should be legal to gun down Muslims.


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## Foxxo (Jun 7, 2019)

crocodilian said:


> There is no rehabilitating Islam, nor Muslims. At its core, Islam is a human plague that should be eradicated.
> 
> And when the enemy is too powerful to jihad? Hijrah, or "migration"; the act of seeking refuge in your enemy's territory, preying on his empathy, and then out-breeding him with your many wives. Muslims only marry (and thus breed with) Muslims; those who disobey are killed by their own. Then when Islam outnumbers the natives, enforce Sharia... violently, of course. For extra effectiveness, have your cronies commit mujahid, then when your enemy retaliates, use it as an excuse for hijrah.
> 
> tl;dr it should be legal to gun down Muslims.



here's what Wikipedia says the Hijrah are. The two incidents which you are referring to are known as Hegira in Wikipedia, which happens to use Deus Vult terminology for this subject matter.

Ironically, the only guys who view Hegira this way are officials in Islamic institutions.


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## JULAY (Jun 7, 2019)

ApatheticViewer said:


> I've seriously been *racking my mind with this.
> 
> the SJW Left thinks we should just passively accept Islam which is insane considering just there treatment of women and non believers. Along with constant beheadings and rape gangs
> 
> ...


Read this:



			The Strength of the Strong:The Unparalleled Invasion
		


Then change "China" to "Muslim Countries", and there's your answer.


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## Niggernerd (Jun 7, 2019)

There's only one way to deal with the Allah question.


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## Damn Near (Jun 7, 2019)

ApatheticViewer said:


> Pfft. I'm frustrated with both sides. One side says "fuck it new holocaust on the stupid towelheads"
> 
> The other side says "man let's just form a giant hug around the world"
> 
> That being said at least your insane solution is actually a solution. Hopefully not The Final one tho... I just don't want to accept violence as the only way.


My man, eventually someone is going to end up wiping them out. Probably the Chinese. My prediction? No one will be too broken up about it when it happens.


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## Recoil (Jun 7, 2019)

Eventually they'll be forced to choose between learning to worship in a reasonable & non-toxic fashion or being annihilated by their host culture.
It's the same choice they always had & the only choice they ever will: Adapt or die.

That's all there is to it. If they can't make that small human concession, nothing will be lost when their annihilation comes due.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 7, 2019)

I should be working said:


> Okay... So I have this 20 year plan, right.
> We need to get Sargon of Akkad elected to the UK govenrment.
> Then we need to get Donald Trump to tweet about GamerGate.
> After that we need to rub our dicks against as many tranny front holes as possible.
> Eventually not even the mulsims will want to live in the west.


The best thing about a 20 year plan is that by the time people want results, you're retired.


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## MarvinTheParanoidAndroid (Jun 7, 2019)

The only possible way you could do that is to make sure they remain a tiny minority in whatever non third world area they're inhabiting and that their populace to the majority populace is always 1:10 at the very least. Even then, that's still extremely optimistic.


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## ZeCommissar (Jun 7, 2019)

Forced assimilation like what was done to the natives in the United States. A problem with this is finding a balance between that and outright religious prosecution (which is illegal under the constitution, and good luck changing that) The forced assimilation also didn't work that well with the natives, though it might work if you try different methods. It's still worth a better shot than hoping they "reform" or assimilate on their own. 

Another problem with this is it would obviously cause violence anyway since some muslims would react violently to such actions. If some more secular states actually get a foothold in the ME and don't fall the fuck apart due to civil war or western meddling then that would help too. Iran used to be a lot more progressive than what it is now....

Though to be honest whatever happens is going to happen. Maybe the world is going to be a dystopia where Islam rules the world and humanity is finally united.....under one caliph.


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## byuu (Jun 7, 2019)

People tend to mix all kinds of different issues and blame it all solely on Islam. I don't think you're gonna solve anything with such an oversimplified view.
There are more problems in the Middle East than the Islam and there's more to culture than religion.
All across the ME (and parts of the Balkan) you have an ass-backwards clan mentality and honour system that all countries used to have but had to grow out of.
A lot of borders were drawn up by the West mixing different people that hate each other, they lack any unifying factor except for Islam and hatred of the West - which is what made groups like ISIS so attractive for them. Constant meddling by outside forces keeps these countries from forming a strong national identity - so they fall back to a religious identity.
Their economies are largely propped up by oil exports and they lack a strong manufacturing sector. Working side by side in a factory is a great equaliser that a lot of these countries are missing. The oil money also allows inefficient, backwards, and corrupt governments to survive.


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## drtoboggan (Jun 7, 2019)

Hunt goats to extinction. Mudsliming isn't as fun without goats to fuck.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 7, 2019)

ApatheticViewer said:


> the SJW Left thinks we should just passively accept Islam which is insane considering just there treatment of women and non believers. Along with constant beheadings and rape gangs
> 
> Meanwhile 8chan alt righters are meming Brenton Tarrant and actively endorsing more Muslim attacks.
> 
> How do we find middle ground here



I think you mean "more attacks on muslims", because there have been plenty muslim attacks and practically no attacks on muslims.

The question is asking water and oil to bond. They don't. Lefties want to get rid of the water and use oil to do it. Righties want to get rid of the oil by seperation so they'd no longer be mixed.

Honestly I don't comprehend how someone can read Putnam or any of the studies on diversity and think there can be a middleground worth fighting for. Which is why none of the middlegrounders are either ennervating a base or energetically approaching things. The only thing keeping them in the middleground is fear of both extremes.

It's not an unreasonable fear. We are all, the left,right and middle, the frog who is being slowly boiled.

Everyone reaches their point where the situation is too painful that it might be as well open war. I think only few people are there now, but the trend is toward more people there. I'm giving it about 10-15 years myself.


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## XE 600 (Jun 7, 2019)

ApatheticViewer said:


> *How do we find middle ground here? *


Send them all to/back to Islamic countries. Their views aren't compatible with western values and never will be.


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## BoingoTango (Jun 7, 2019)

ZeCommissar said:


> Forced assimilation like what was done to the natives in the United States. A problem with this is finding a balance between that and outright religious prosecution (which is illegal under the constitution, and good luck changing that) The forced assimilation also didn't work that well with the natives, though it might work if you try different methods. It's still worth a better shot than hoping they "reform" or assimilate on their own.
> 
> Another problem with this is it would obviously cause violence anyway since some muslims would react violently to such actions. If some more secular states actually get a foothold in the ME and don't fall the fuck apart due to civil war or western meddling then that would help too. Iran used to be a lot more progressive than what it is now....
> 
> Though to be honest whatever happens is going to happen. Maybe the world is going to be a dystopia where Islam rules the world and humanity is finally united.....under one caliph.


I disagree I think forced assimilation worked splendidly with the Natives. I mean. I don't see any Natives causing problems anymore.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jun 7, 2019)

You used the wrong "their" in the title of the thread and thus I didn't read the OP or any posts in the thread and the OP is automatically wrong about everything.

But the answer to your question is "You don't".  How do you make peace with someone who says "I want to kill you"? Either you let them kill you or you don't.  

I would say islam itself isn't really the problem, it's that islam reflects the the violent savagery of the region. If they were christians they'd be some hyper violent sect of christianity.


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## Judge Holden (Jun 7, 2019)

Easy answer

Nukes

Invest heavily into nuclear power throughout the west, and use the resulting windfall of ultra cheap electricity to put the oil industry out of business forever, and with this bargaining chip removed go all out in sanctioning the ever loving shit out of oil theocracies and the fundie shit they sponsor both in the islamic world and in the west. 

From there continue the pattern of ostracising fundie hardliner governments/figures while rewarding modernist and reformer governments/figures, while at the same time enforcing proper de-radicalisation programmes for all prospective immigrants from the middle east to filter out all the obvious islamist psychos and "muh culture"  scumfuckers and then have a zero tolerance "fuck up and you get deported" policy for anyone who tries to start that shit once they have immigrated.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 7, 2019)

BoingoTango said:


> I disagree I think forced assimilation worked splendidly with the Natives. I mean. I don't see any Natives causing problems anymore.


Not sure if sarcasm.

The thing about forcing assimilation with Muslims is they will pretend to go the fuck along with it as they clump up into their own little community right under your nose.  Inside that little community? Fuck your American law, Western devil.


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## BoingoTango (Jun 7, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> Not sure if sarcasm.
> 
> The thing about forcing assimilation with Muslims is they will pretend to go the fuck along with it as they clump up into their own little community right under your nose.  Inside that little community? Fuck your American law, Western devil.


  That's not exactly forcing it then is it?  What you do with the fucking Muslims who won't actually assimilate (all of them) you walk them down the trail of fucking tears, and keep about 5 of them around just so we can say we didn't genocide them.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 7, 2019)

BoingoTango said:


> That's not exactly forcing it then is it?  What you do with the fucking Muslims who won't actually assimilate (all of them) you walk them down the trail of fucking tears, and keep about 5 of them around just so we can say we didn't genocide them.


Well, until someone nuts the fuck up and starts making a habit of treating them like they tend to treat outgroups in their own countries...


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## Jeff Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

I found this guy who is like a muslim Alex Jones https://zaidpub.com/ apparently we don't need to worry about anything because the muslims are going to sort themselves out.


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## BigUglyRetard (Jun 7, 2019)

Islam can't be fixed. It's founded on morals that are outdated by a few thousand years. The best solution is to flatten the Middle East with hellfire and harvest its resources.


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## SilkGnut (Jun 7, 2019)

Solve the problem? 

It looks to me like events are transpiring as was intended. Why would the powers that be change the direction of history at this point?


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## Malagor the dank omen (Jun 8, 2019)

BigUglyRetard said:


> Islam can't be fixed. It's founded on morals that are outdated by a few thousand years. The best solution is to flatten the Middle East with hellfire and harvest its resources.


It's amazing how many people say that violence doesn't solve anything. Violence solves far more things in this world than anything else and only yellow bellies or deluded people can deny it with a straight face. The best we can do it's like the brits did a couple of hundred years ago: A single execution so brutal and offensive to them that they do not dare to even cry when you burn a Quran.



SilkGnut said:


> Solve the problem?
> 
> It looks to me like events are transpiring as was intended. Why would the powers that be change the direction of history at this point?



Awfully true. Unless the chumps at the bottom do something this problem will be left to fester.


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## Drunk and Pour (Jun 8, 2019)

SilkGnut said:


> Solve the problem?
> 
> It looks to me like events are transpiring as was intended. Why would the powers that be change the direction of history at this point?





Malagor the dank omen said:


> Awfully true. Unless the chumps at the bottom do something this problem will be left to fester.


Man, I hate thinking this is true, but what else could it be?  Divide and conquer.  I feel bad for Europe.  Can they ever recover from the massive Muslim migration into their countries?  I really hope Brexit happens as quickly as possible.

America is "lucky" in that regard.  9/11 will always be a sore spot, no matter how much the media wants us to forget.  We can watch, detached from the European content, though still attached culturally, and watch how Islam rots Europe.  And now we have two Muslim congresswomen saying stupid shit all the time on the national stage.  America is too big for Muslims to actually take over.  We have our own problems with Mexican and South Americans immigrants, but at least the best of them still value Christianity.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 9, 2019)

You DON'T, pussy. You exterminate their religion completely and replace it with something better.


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## Slap47 (Jun 9, 2019)

ApatheticViewer said:


> I've seriously been *racking my mind with this.
> 
> the SJW Left thinks we should just passively accept Islam which is insane considering just there treatment of women and non believers. Along with constant beheadings and rape gangs
> 
> ...



The reason that Islam found so much success in SouthEast Asia was because of the Sufis. They preached love, brotherhood and equality.

We simply need to spread this cucked version of Islam.


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## DK 699 (Jun 13, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> Why necessarily Christianity? Are Hinduism or Buddhism or even atheism not sufficient?


Hinduism would probably be worse to be honest. Musilms have the decency to stab you in the front. The same cannot be said about Hindus. Hindus are coming into this country in droves. Look at this: 



			https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2018AnnualReport/FY18AnnualReport%20-%20TableIII.pdf
		


Indians (read: Hindus) are one of the biggest groups of legal immigrants to this country. They also come in large numbers to work in the tech industry through the H1-B visa:



			https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2007-2017-trend-tables.pdf
		


Hindus also are trying to control the US goverment through lobbying. The only group that does a better job than them is the Jews with AIPAC:









						The Indian-American lobby that’s quietly pushing Washington towards New Delhi
					

Modi’s frequent visits have reinvigorated both India-US ties and Indian lobbying.




					qz.com
				




Hindus are masters of manipulation. A long time ago India was a Buddhist country, but the Hindus got rid of them and regained control of the subcontinent. From 1947 to the 1990s they have greatly reduced the territory controlled by as well as the standard of living of the only non-Muslim minority in India that could have resisted them, the Sikhs. Once China collaspes due to their population problems they will rise up as the dominate force in Asia and they're already sending their tentacles out into the west so that when the time comes the west can't stop them.


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## Kamov Ka-52 (Jun 13, 2019)

I'm going to be neg rated, but fuck it, I'm so tired of reading this same thread with the same comments in in every time, so here comes my hot take. 

The problem is not Islam nor is it the people themselves. To massively oversimplify: it is instead the increasing proliferation of extremism an issue which has been exacerbated countries jostling to become the dominant regional power and by an entire generation of Arabs growing up in countries who's institutions and economies have been ravaged by decades of sectarian violence, civil war, and disastrously handled foreign interventions. This by no means excuses terrorism or violence, but it does explain it better than the standard MUSLIM MAN BAD I always see in Deep Thoughts or A&H.


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## Autocrat (Jun 13, 2019)

Islamic extremism is a proxy for one of the world superpowers. It's a non-issue.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 13, 2019)

Apoth42 said:


> The reason that Islam found so much success in SouthEast Asia was because of the Sufis. They preached love, brotherhood and equality.
> 
> We simply need to spread this cucked version of Islam.


People always think that there's one denomination of islam that wouldn't be shit. They're wrong. Even sufism, even ahmadiyya... it may seem like better versions of islam, but it is still worse than every other type of denomination that isn't islam.


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## Slap47 (Jun 13, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> People always think that there's one denomination of islam that wouldn't be shit. They're wrong. Even sufism, even ahmadiyya... it may seem like better versions of islam, but it is still worse than every other type of denomination that isn't islam.



I don't care if they're shit. As long as they aren't violent retards.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 13, 2019)

Apoth42 said:


> I don't care if they're shit. As long as they aren't violent exceptional individuals.


Their most exalted example of morality was a warlord.... so good luck with that.


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## Recoil (Jun 13, 2019)

You don't solve Islam, it's an inherently oppositional ideology.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jun 13, 2019)

Hold them to the same standard as everyone else.  It worked for America.  The problem isn't Islam, it's Islam+a cowardly, spineless police force not interested in actually dealing with crime.


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## Basil II (Jun 13, 2019)

Conversion away from Islam, Islam is a dying horrorcow of a """"religion"""" that vents it's death and frustrations with violence.

All the galaxy brained people saying Islam isn't the problem don't understand Islam. Islam literally says if you try to reform it or change it in any way that you're an apostate who should be murdered to protect the word of Allah (Which they literally see the Quran as, they take it completely literally and changing it to them is altering the literal word of God) How are you supposed to reform it when fucking Salafis and ISIS types are literally scripturally correct? Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a fucking PhD in Islamic Studies and you're gonna tell me you know more about Islam than him?

Look at Turkey, it went through centuries of Ottoman rule, In the Ottoman Empire, Islam didn't rule, the house of Osman did. Turkey was further secularized by Ataturk who's been mythologized in Turkey as a hero, and he was a fucking Atheist. You wanna know what's happening today? Not even a century after Turkey removed Islam and secularized? Erdogan is larping as an Ottoman Sultan and destroying the secularization.

This isn't even the only time this has happened. Throughout the entire Middle East, during the Cold War era most countries were secular Arab Nationalists, that were only successful because they were propped up by the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. and now that the Cold War is over, those nations have fallen apart in revolt and cucked during the Arab spring.
Nasser's dream is dead. We've already tried secularizing and it didn't work. It just lead to the Islamic revolution in Iran and the Arab spring.



ProgKing of the North said:


> Why necessarily Christianity? Are Hinduism or Buddhism or even atheism not sufficient?



>Hinduism
A pagan """"""religion"""""" that is closely linked with the Indian Subcontinent, good luck exporting that, I'm sure Muslims would love being told that they should worship a giant elephant, because Islam makes people so receptive to Paganism and Polytheism. How much good would that really do when you're just replacing Genocidal Jihadis with Street shitters who lick cow shit and practice slavery on the lower castes. Not to mention Hinduism has literally no history of missionaries and spreading the word.
>Buddhism
Has a lot of left over pagan shit from Hinduism that's gonna make it impossible to convert, see above.
>Atheism
Yeah cause we need even more nihilistic edgelords who replace religion with their political ideologies and get triggered whenever someone disagrees with them.

Christianity makes by far the most sense for multiple reasons.

It has an actual history in the region, before the Arab conquests everywhere between Tangiers and Ctesiphon was Christian, with Christianity also cucking Zoroastrianism in Persia. Hinduism has literally nothing to do with the region and Buddhism only existed in Afghanistan which is very far from the Middle East proper.

There's an actual sizable Christian minority that could support it, Egypt has 20 million Christians who have endured 1,300 years of oppression and abuse, and today have to deal with the neglect from their supposed fellow Christians in Europe who couldn't give less of a shit about them. There are multiple nations in the Middle East that are majority Christian like Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia and Lebanon.

Christianity is one of the only other religions that Islam shows a modicum of respect for, considering Islam sees itself as the successor to Christianity. Muslims pretend every Christian before the Council of Nicaea was actually a Muslim, which is the same shit that American Evangelicals say. They're already half way there! Jesus Christ is one of the most venerated Prophets in Islam and Mary is literally seen as the holiest woman who has ever existed.

Most of Islam is ripped off from Christianity as well, it's just Christianity imbued with Muhammad's greed and narcissism which is why it's so similar to Mormonism, In the Medieval Era Islam was seen in Europe as a Christological heresy related to Arianism, Dante's Divine Comedy references Islam and Muhammad calling him a schismatic similar to Arius and Nestorius and their ancient heresies.

Christianity is probably the only religion that's been successful at converting Muslims, see the Reconquista, the Norman conquest of Sicily, The Balkan wars, and Russia's conversion of the Tatars. Islam fucking melts when they're put on an equal playing field with Christianity. Why would you wanna be part of a cult where you get raped and killed for taking a ninja outfit off when you could just convert away with the state protecting you?


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## Iwasamwillbe (Jun 14, 2019)

Basil II said:


> A pagan """"""religion""""""


What do you mean by this? Is Hinduism some sort of false religion by your standards?



Basil II said:


> lick cow shit


Pretty sure Hindus don't do that.


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## Basil II (Jun 14, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> What do you mean by this? Is Hinduism some sort of false religion by your standards?
> 
> Pretty sure Hindus don't do that.


It's a pagan polytheistic religion, according to Islam pagans are absolutely haram and literally the worst thing in the world. It's not really a religion in the same sense that Christianity and Islam are.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Jun 14, 2019)

Basil II said:


> It's a pagan polytheistic religion, according to Islam pagans are absolutely haram and literally the worst thing in the world. It's not really a religion in the same sense that Christianity and Islam are.


Hinduism is more henotheistic or monistic, to be exact, instead of hard polytheistic. To vastly oversimplify it: Hinduism has an ultimate reality (Brahman) that comes in multiple different forms for a variety of belief systems (Trimurti, Tridevi, Maha Ganesha, Krishna, Adi Parashakti, etc.), allowing for much religious pluralism and tolerance to take place.

I'm currently looking at the interaction between Hindus and Muslims in India, to get a better idea of how Muslims and Hindus tolerate each other.


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## MW 002 (Jun 14, 2019)

Just ban Shariah Law in every first world country and most will just fuck off back to their homelands


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## TerribleIdeas™ (Jun 14, 2019)

Damn Near said:


> My man, eventually someone is going to end up wiping them out. Probably the Chinese. My prediction? No one will be too broken up about it when it happens.



Except for all the little commie shits that are trying to complain about the Chinese rounding up Ugyurs, and bitching that the Buddhists that have been preyed on by Muslims finally had enough, and are ready to push the Muslims directly into the sea, sure, no one is broken up over it.



EurocopterTigre said:


> I'm going to be neg rated, but fuck it, I'm so tired of reading this same thread with the same comments in in every time, so here comes my hot take.
> 
> The problem is not Islam nor is it the people themselves. To massively oversimplify: it is instead the increasing proliferation of extremism an issue which has been exacerbated countries jostling to become the dominant regional power and by an entire generation of Arabs growing up in countries who's institutions and economies have been ravaged by decades of sectarian violence, civil war, and disastrously handled foreign interventions. This by no means excuses terrorism or violence, but it does explain it better than the standard MUSLIM MAN BAD I always see in Deep Thoughts or A&H.



Muslims are scripturally commanded to forcibly convert non-believers, and kill any that refuse; that includes members of other sects, because the Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah, as communicated to a paedophile warlord, and cannot be altered. You can look up the Pew Research data on how 2nd-gen Muslims in the UK are more conservative, more supportive of a Caliphate, more supportive or terrorism, and less supportive of personal liberties, and see that the problem is pretty clearly Islam, and not anything else.

Sort of a powerlevel - I've worked with guys that knew Muslims dudes that had daughters married to viciously abusive Muslim men from the same region or nation of origin, and in almost every case, the Muslim father had been at some point asked why he tolerated a dude beating his daughter, often to the point of hospitalization. The answer always had the same underlying message - "I'd rather my daughter die a proper Muslim wife, than be married to kaffir."



Venus said:


> Just ban Shariah Law in every first world country and most will just fuck off back to their homelands



It's banned by law in every country in North America, and the only one they aren't trying to get into is Mexico, which is famously as much of a shithole with zero welfare as their own shitholes. Funny how it's consistently the countries with welfare they seem to be attracted to, and nowhere else.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 14, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> Pretty sure Hindus don't do that.


They're known to use cow urine and feces in various rituals that involve physical contact with and occasionally ingestion of these substances.  IIRC some of them "baptize" kids for good luck by putting their heads in cow pies.

Hindus are kind of nuts.  The cow fetish isn't even the craziest shit they do - that dubious honor would go to the absurd fucking caste system.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Jun 14, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> They're known to use cow urine and feces in various rituals that involve physical contact with and occasionally ingestion of these substances.  IIRC some of them "baptize" kids for good luck by putting their heads in cow pies.
> 
> Hindus are kind of nuts.  The cow fetish isn't even the craziest shit they do - that dubious honor would go to the absurd fucking caste system.


Links please? The closest I could find was the usage of cow urine for medicinal purposes and using cow shit as fuel for sacred fires.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 14, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> Links please?

















Best part. Buying cow urine in a store:


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## Basil II (Jun 17, 2019)

TerribleIdeas™ said:


> It's banned by law in every country in North America, and the only one they aren't trying to get into is Mexico, which is famously as much of a shithole with zero welfare as their own shitholes. Funny how it's consistently the countries with welfare they seem to be attracted to, and nowhere else.


Oh God I would love to see ISIS try to invade Mexico.
>Get to Mexico
>Get mugged for their bombs
>Police Officer rolls up, ISIS gives up their life savings to make him go away
>Defeated and humiliated decide to rape the first person they see
>First person they see is with the Cartel
>Get captured by the Cartel
>Mutilated and beheaded


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## Black Waltz (Jun 17, 2019)

you can't, all you can do is invest in bitcoin and move to siberia


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## maalikthefakemuzzie (Jun 17, 2019)

There is nothing wrong with islam.


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## Smoothie Queen (Jun 17, 2019)

Probably going to get rated down into oblivion but I honestly don't see that much difference between extreme Islam and extreme Christianity or Judaism. They all source from the same place and the same beliefs, they all promote similar attitudes, and they all have blood on their metaphorical hands. Religious extremism needs to be addressed in a way that takes power away from all Abrahamic religions, because they all have way too much power, which only enables and emboldens extremists.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Smoothie Queen said:


> Probably going to get rated down into oblivion but I honestly don't see that much difference between extreme Islam and extreme Christianity or Judaism. They all source from the same place and the same beliefs, they all promote similar attitudes, and they all have blood on their metaphorical hands. Religious extremism needs to be addressed in a way that takes power away from all Abrahamic religions, because they all have way too much power, which only enables and emboldens extremists.


They do stem from more or less the same place, yes.  That being said, their respective "evolutionary paths" are fairly different and they all have different purposes, so to speak.

Christianity (the middle child) is, by and large, the religion most receptive to progressive reform.  This is likely tied to the fact that it's also incredibly fractious, with dozens and dozens of variations and denominations.  Christianity can be tailored into a religion of war, but it is not really designed explicitly for the purpose.  Many people cite the Crusades as evidence the Christians are just as bloodthirsty as anyone else - and they fail to remember that the first Crusade was the Pope at the time getting incredibly upset about Seljuk Turks (I think) sacking caravans headed to the Holy Land and murdering pilgrims, and saying "OK, every God-fearing man pick up your damn sword and go collect some heads until they realize we're not to be fucked with." Other Crusades tend to be less defensible, and the outcome of even the first Crusade wasn't exactly a feather in Christianity's cap, but intent counts for something.

Judaism (the eldest) is interesting because it is not particularly missionary in nature.  Jews don't really actively seek converts.  This is because Judaism is almost as much a tribe (of "God's Chosen") as it is a religion, and honestly they don't always like sharing their cool kids club.  Jewish kings of yore were surprisingly bloodthirsty.  David himself put more people to the sword than you might think (and then he demanded their foreskins be cut off, what the fuck dude).  Judaism's relationship with their God is different as well - one of their most notable figures is actually Jacob, a trickster by nature.  Reforms and denominations of Judaism exist, but for the most part they are way less fractious than Christians.  Jews can and do occupy a superposition of secularity and religiosity depending on who you talk to.  It's strange.  They're kind of strange.

Islam (the baby of the bunch) is most notable because it is the Abrahamic that is codified to facilitate using dogma for straight-up war and conquest of unbelievers.  Christianity, for the most part, wants to pester you into being its friend.  Judaism wants little to do with you.  Islam shouts "CONVERT OR DIE" in your face.  Islam is somewhat fractious, surprisingly, as there are Sunnis and Shia, and then you have Sufi mystics, and numerous other more locally-oriented schools, traditions and customs, and of course the reformed ex-warmongering-villain-who-actually-is-an-OK-guy sect in the Ahmadiyya (who are treated as heretics by everyone else, of course).  Offshoots like Baha'i exist, but not many people know a damn thing about Baha'i anyway.  Islam is the religion that reformed in full reverse - it got angrier and fightier with the advent of Salafism and Wahhabism.


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## maalikthefakemuzzie (Jun 17, 2019)

Islam does not advocates warfare because the other side has opposing viewpoints. Warfare is only allowed if the opponents attack first. This is the first verse that talks about warfare.
"*Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory."
-22:39*


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

maaliktheprisonguard said:


> Islam does not advocates warfare because the other side has opposing viewpoints. Warfare is only allowed if the opponents attack first. This is the first verse that talks about warfare.
> "*Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory."
> -22:39*


Your thought leaders disagree with you.  Brave man, risking a fatwah like that.  Maybe you could be friends with Salman Rushdie?


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## Smoothie Queen (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> They do stem from more or less the same place, yes.  That being said, their respective "evolutionary paths" are fairly different and they all have different purposes, so to speak.
> 
> Christianity (the middle child) is, by and large, the religion most receptive to progressive reform.  This is likely tied to the fact that it's also incredibly fractious, with dozens and dozens of variations and denominations.  Christianity can be tailored into a religion of war, but it is not really designed explicitly for the purpose.  Many people cite the Crusades as evidence the Christians are just as bloodthirsty as anyone else - and they fail to remember that the first Crusade was the Pope at the time getting incredibly upset about Seljuk Turks (I think) sacking caravans headed to the Holy Land and murdering pilgrims, and saying "OK, every God-fearing man pick up your damn sword and go collect some heads until they realize we're not to be fucked with." Other Crusades tend to be less defensible, and the outcome of even the first Crusade wasn't exactly a feather in Christianity's cap, but intent counts for something.
> 
> ...



But Christian religious doctrine was used to excuse and allow things like the colonization of foreign states. The idea that being Christian made westerners more important/right/good than the "heathen savages" they trampled under their feet was significant in the atrocities that Europeans committed in Africa, to the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia, and so on. They slaughtered and starved and raped thousands upon thousands because they felt their god demanded it. They took children from their parents and tortured them into "accepting" Christianity and European/Christian culture and language, often raping and murdering them whenever they felt like it, allowing them to die of preventable diseases, etc. Furthermore, to bring things into the present day, Christian extremists now commit terror attacks on abortion clinics, Jewish temples, mosques, etc. in the name of their god. You can't really claim that Christianity is nonviolent when these things have been happening for centuries and involve far, far more than just the Crusades.

And as to Judaism, look what they do to the Palestinians in the name of _their_ god. They bomb hospitals, murder children, and try to starve out an entire population. Of course this is not reflective of all Jewish people any more than abortion clinic bombings reflect all of Christianity, but the fact remains that these are Jewish people committing atrocities in the name of their god.

Islam is far from the only Abrahamic religion to play the "convert or die" game, or to be violent to those who are not like them. All other Abrahamic religions have a long, long history of doing the exact same thing.

In conclusion, it is with a heavy heart that I must express my disappointment that no one remembers the Spanish Inquisition.


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## maalikthefakemuzzie (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> Your thought leaders disagree with you.  Brave man, risking a fatwah like that.  Maybe you could be friends with Salman Rushdie?


Fucking prove it.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Smoothie Queen said:


> But Christian religious doctrine was used to excuse and allow things like the colonization of foreign states. The idea that being Christian made westerners more important/right/good than the "heathen savages" they trampled under their feet was significant in the atrocities that Europeans committed in Africa, to the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia, and so on. They slaughtered and starved and raped thousands upon thousands because they felt their god demanded it. They took children from their parents and tortured them into "accepting" Christianity and European/Christian culture and language, often raping and murdering them whenever they felt like it, allowing them to die of preventable diseases, etc. Furthermore, to bring things into the present day, Christian extremists now commit terror attacks on abortion clinics, Jewish temples, mosques, etc. in the name of their god. You can't really claim that Christianity is nonviolent when these things have been happening for centuries and involve far, far more than just the Crusades.



This is true.  I would note that there are Bible verses that make those colonizers look like real fucking assholes, but Christianity was weaponized in those instances.  That being said, I can stab someone with a combat knife expressly designed for hurting people, and I can also stab someone with kitchen shears that were produced with no such intent in mind.  Christianity isn't nonviolent - it just isn't really optimized for violence and having moved forward from those days, with things like Vatican II, it's much less inclined to use outright thuggery in order to get its way especially when it can get you to talk to it in exchange for some sort of aid or guidance.  The modern abortion-clinic bomber types are actually ENORMOUSLY aberrant for the religion, as Christians really rather prefer standing around and guilting the hell out of you for getting an abortion.  Christian extremists going after synagogues and mosques with violence is outright freakish to most, especially since evangelical Christians seem to love the hell out of Israel and the Jews.  Christianity, for lack of a better way to phrase it, would rather try and sell you on the deal, even if it can be a bit of a shady dealer at times.



Smoothie Queen said:


> And as to Judaism, look what they do to the Palestinians in the name of _their_ god. They bomb hospitals, murder children, and try to starve out an entire population. Of course this is not reflective of all Jewish people any more than abortion clinic bombings reflect all of Christianity, but the fact remains that these are Jewish people committing atrocities in the name of their god.



I think you misunderstand the root of the conflict there.  It's not about Yahweh, it's about land and a kind of Israeli manifest destiny coupled with abject paranoia.  Jews these days don't particularly prefer to predicate wars on religious grounds - they prefer the angle of "defending the ever-surrounded Jewish people and state".  There are Muslims that live in Israel, and they are somehow not chased out with pitchforks.  The Israelis just have ZERO concept of proportional response doctrine and don't care to learn because they figure someone will just make them look like shit anyway.  Ever the persecuted, really, but they're not entirely wrong on that count - it's more a matter of what lumps they did and did not really earn, and the score may be impossible to call accurately without pissing off a LOT of people.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Islam is far from the only Abrahamic religion to play the "convert or die" game, or to be violent to those who are not like them. All other Abrahamic religions have a long, long history of doing the exact same thing.



In the modern era? Islam is pretty much the only one still advocating that.  No one's totally blameless but Islam got handed a golden opportunity to start looking like pretty nice people in the Ahmadiyya reform sect and right now they do their best to make Ahmadis as miserable as they humanly can.  The Christians kind of awkwardly shuffled their feet and put away their swords for the most part, the Jews cling to theirs out of paranoia and exceptionalism (not word filtered, look it up), and the Muslims really, really love swinging theirs around every chance they think they can get.



Smoothie Queen said:


> In conclusion, it is with a heavy heart that I must express my disappointment that no one remembers the Spanish Inquisition.


No one expects it either.



maaliktheprisonguard said:


> Fucking prove it.


Are you going to tell me that a religion centered around utter submission to the word of God, with religious leaders that are second in authority only to the Prophet and Allah interpreting them with absolute religious authority and commanding submission to those words and their chosen interpretations, that persecutes the everloving shit out of anyone who looks at the Quran crosseyed or suggests new additions... you're telling me this authoritarian nightmare of a creed can't condemn this kind of thing so hard that Muslims would crap their pants with confusion and fear like a Pavlovian response at the thought of raising a sword against an unarmed nonbeliever? This isn't a few lunatics here and there fucking shit up for the rest, because their book and their imam tells them to damn well do it and they're following instructions.  This isn't even getting into historical Islam, and the Moorish invasions and the Seljuks and the Ottomans and the slave trade that is STILL ONGOING and the brutal treatment of apostates, atheists, heretics and women.

They're Muslim-ing wrong, or you're Muslim-ing wrong.  Which is it?


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## Smoothie Queen (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> This is true.  I would note that there are Bible verses that make those colonizers look like real fucking assholes, but Christianity was weaponized in those instances.  That being said, I can stab someone with a combat knife expressly designed for hurting people, and I can also stab someone with kitchen shears that were produced with no such intent in mind.  Christianity isn't nonviolent - it just isn't really optimized for violence and having moved forward from those days, with things like Vatican II, it's much less inclined to use outright thuggery in order to get its way especially when it can get you to talk to it in exchange for some sort of aid or guidance.  The modern abortion-clinic bomber types are actually ENORMOUSLY aberrant for the religion, as Christians really rather prefer standing around and guilting the hell out of you for getting an abortion.  Christian extremists going after synagogues and mosques with violence is outright freakish to most, especially since evangelical Christians seem to love the hell out of Israel and the Jews.  Christianity, for lack of a better way to phrase it, would rather try and sell you on the deal, even if it can be a bit of a shady dealer at times.



The Christian ideology has always been that being Christian makes you holier and better than those who are not Christian, though, so you can't really say it's a pair of kitchen shears when its ideologies make it clear that other people are "lesser" and thus don't matter as much - that kind of rhetoric directly leads to violence.

I really, really dislike the idea that because _some _Christians don't endorse the behaviors of extremist Christian terrorists and their ilk, that means Christianity isn't violent. These people are Christians, and they are doing things that Christianity condones - there are churches that condone and encourage this behavior and this hatred, so you can't say that Christians disapprove of it. There are loads of religious leaders in Christianity who openly encourage the murder of gay and lesbian people, something which the Bible itself condones. The Bible also condones murdering women who cheat on their husbands, and many other people for defying tenets of the religion. The Pope himself has confirmed that hundreds and hundreds of nuns have been sexually abused at the hands of church leaders, and we all know how many thousands of young girls and boys have been sexually abused and had the church cover it up. _If this were not approved of in the church they would condemn it_. Those pastors and those leaders would no longer be part of Christianity, they would be condemned. But they aren't.

(And before you say it, yes, I know that due to Christianity being so fractured and having many different sects, it is more difficult to condemn and denounce those who preach evil, violent things. But it can still be done. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it isn't worth doing, if you want to show the world that Christianity is not violent and does not commit or encourage or preach atrocities.)

The Christian church and Christian religion is constantly used to justify violence, rape, and murder. The fact that there are religious leaders - pastors, preachers, etc - who agree with this and promote this shows that it is a systemic problem of all of Christianity, not an isolated problem among one or two disturbed individuals acting on their own. If Christianity would like to purge itself of these hateful people, and reinterpret their Bible so as not to promote the murders of innocent people, they are free to do so, but until they do I will continue calling them out for their words, beliefs and actions.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> I think you misunderstand the root of the conflict there.  It's not about Yahweh, it's about land and a kind of Israeli manifest destiny coupled with abject paranoia.  Jews these days don't particularly prefer to predicate wars on religious grounds - they prefer the angle of "defending the ever-surrounded Jewish people and state".  There are Muslims that live in Israel, and they are somehow not chased out with pitchforks.  The Israelis just have ZERO concept of proportional response doctrine and don't care to learn because they figure someone will just make them look like shit anyway.  Ever the persecuted, really, but they're not entirely wrong on that count - it's more a matter of what lumps they did and did not really earn, and the score may be impossible to call accurately without pissing off a LOT of people.



But the Jewish people of Israel also believe that their god gave them that land / intended for them to have that land, which is a massive part of why the conflict exists.

And afaik Muslims in Israel are often treated as second-class citizens - as are African Jewish people, for that matter, which does not reflect well on Israel as a state.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> In the modern era? Islam is pretty much the only one still advocating that.  No one's totally blameless but Islam got handed a golden opportunity to start looking like pretty nice people in the Ahmadiyya reform sect and right now they do their best to make Ahmadis as miserable as they humanly can.  The Christians kind of awkwardly shuffled their feet and put away their swords for the most part, the Jews cling to theirs out of paranoia and exceptionalism (not word filtered, look it up), and the Muslims really, really love swinging theirs around every chance they think they can get.
> 
> No one expects it either.



Islam is also a multifaceted religion with more and less peaceful sects, as you specifically mention, just like Christianity and Judaism. There are many Islamic people who are not violent and who do not practice their religion in a violent way or a way that condones or encourages violence. So why don't you make excuses for them the way that you do for Christianity and Judaism? This is where we disagree: I think _all_ of these religions are wrong. I don't cherry-pick and only go after the "foreign" one while making endless excuses for the others and claiming they're somehow better, so long as we ignore all the terrorism and bigoted murders and whatnot.

What you have to keep in mind when considering the way Islam is presented now is that the entire Middle Eastern region has been destabilized for decades now due to the direct actions of the United States government and other (Christian-based, interestingly) governments - _We_ overthrew the tolerant and progressive government in Iran and put into power a religious zealot! We did that! _We _invaded Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses and destroyed their countries and governments! _We opened the door_ to religious extremism through these actions. We persecute Islam in some countries while allowing religious extremism to flourish in countries that we profit off of a relationship with (Saudi Arabia, for example) and protect those countries from organizations like the UN. The US, led by the Christian right, has had a serious and unforgettable impact on the state of the Middle East. And as many scholars will tell you, issues like political unrest, war, poverty, and so on all lead to increases in religious extremism. So there is that.

The other thing to consider is that, as Westerners (I don't know if you're American but this is especially true to Americans), we only see a biased and extremely negative view of Islam. We are taught and told on the news, in classes, etc. that Islam is a violent and terrible religion, that Muslims are all terrorists, etc. You can see a lot of that kind of ignorant, one-sided stereotyping on this post and hell, on this entire forum. The picture we are shown of Islam through our right-wing media and the word-of-mouth of bigots is not the complete picture of Islam. It is a biased picture intended to make us hate Muslim people and fear their religion.

I don't believe it's as simple as "Islam bad, Christianity/Judaism good". All Abrahamic religions endorse violence and do violence onto others. The only reason you all think that Islam is somehow worse, or that Christianity and Judaism are somehow better, is because the latter have better PR and are (primarily) centered in wealthy, Western countries where the conditions for widespread social unrest and religious extremism don't currently exist - though rates of religious extremism in the US and Europe are on the rise.

All Abrahamic religions should be held accountable for their violence, their words, their beliefs and actions. All Abrahamic religions should be stripped of their societal and governmental power. Not just the one that happens to be mostly brown people (and don't think this has nothing to do with it, it has everything to do with why Islam is singled out).


----------



## Montacer (Jun 17, 2019)

Muslims believe in one, unique, incomparable God, Who has no son nor partner, and that none has the right to be worshipped but Him alone.  No one shares His divinity, nor His attributes.

Christians, on the other hand, follow the Nicene Creed and worship 3 persons as one God. To them, Islamic simple view is a big challenge and a problem that's to be solved.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Smoothie Queen said:


> The Christian ideology has always been that being Christian makes you holier and better than those who are not Christian, though, so you can't really say it's a pair of kitchen shears when its ideologies make it clear that other people are "lesser" and thus don't matter as much - that kind of rhetoric directly leads to violence.



The comparison of the knife and the shears was not direct 1:1 with Christianity and any other so much as it was "you can hurt people with lots of different things, the constant is the wielder".  The establishment of "holy, holier, holiest, unholy" is discriminatory on purpose of course but there's a jump between "You're lesser" and "I'm going to kill you".  Most people (Christians included) would say that a dog is lesser than a man and still condemn the hell out of a man kicking a dog without some really good reason.  There's something else that bridges that jump between establishment of "lesserdom" and enactment of violence.



Smoothie Queen said:


> I really, really dislike the idea that because _some _Christians don't endorse the behaviors of extremist Christian terrorists and their ilk, that means Christianity isn't violent. These people are Christians, and they are doing things that Christianity condones - there are churches that condone and encourage this behavior and this hatred, so you can't say that Christians disapprove of it. There are loads of religious leaders in Christianity who openly encourage the murder of gay and lesbian people, something which the Bible itself condones. The Bible also condones murdering women who cheat on their husbands, and many other people for defying tenets of the religion. The Pope himself has confirmed that hundreds and hundreds of nuns have been sexually abused at the hands of church leaders, and we all know how many thousands of young girls and boys have been sexually abused and had the church cover it up. _If this were not approved of in the church they would condemn it_. Those pastors and those leaders would no longer be part of Christianity, they would be condemned. But they aren't.



I didn't say Christianity wasn't violent.  I said it generally does not prefer violence.  This will get brought up in a different context later but a couple crazies can't represent thousands and thousands of people who reject those crazies outright.  I know of no specific church that has called for violence - if I had to guess at which ones WOULD, probably baptists as they're very hellfire-and-brimstone in their sermons.  WBC isn't a church, they're legal trolls.  Catholic pederasty and deviancy is something that has been kicking about for a while and yes, they've been horrifically ineffective at bringing it to heel.  There is a notable schism between the Vatican proper and the American Catholic Church, mind you, so fuck only knows how much they'd listen to a hard-line Pope demanding immediate defrocking and excommunication of offenders.



Smoothie Queen said:


> (And before you say it, yes, I know that due to Christianity being so fractured and having many different sects, it is more difficult to condemn and denounce those who preach evil, violent things. But it can still be done. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it isn't worth doing, if you want to show the world that Christianity is not violent and does not commit or encourage or preach atrocities.)



It's more about the good denouncing does, or rather the LACK of it, in both directions.  It earns surprisingly little good faith from others to denounce, and it does surprisingly little good at correcting the problem that prompted the denouncement.  Catholics might be better equipped for it, as IIRC it might be entirely possible to excommunicate an entire church if the clergy and parishioners were unrepentant assholes, and it would have serious consequences for the legitimacy of that church as a Catholic church.  The other denominations? It'd almost be like herding cats to get "Fuck this church in particular" movements going, I think.



Smoothie Queen said:


> The Christian church and Christian religion is constantly used to justify violence, rape, and murder. The fact that there are religious leaders - pastors, preachers, etc - who agree with this and promote this shows that it is a systemic problem of all of Christianity, not an isolated problem among one or two disturbed individuals acting on their own. If Christianity would like to purge itself of these hateful people, and reinterpret their Bible so as not to promote the murders of innocent people, they are free to do so, but until they do I will continue calling them out for their words, beliefs and actions.


Violence, yes.  Murder as a subset of that, yes, I can imagine someone retarded interpreting verses in a way that appears to justify killing in the name of God or whatever.  Rape makes no sense, though.  I don't remember anything that would, even creatively interpreted, be suitable for justifying rape.  That's a hard sell.  Rapes/molestations that occur are pretty much utterly indefensible with scripture, no matter how you massage it.  As for purges, last time the Christian world had a good purge it resulted in the Spanish Inquisition.  Do you think only non-Christians received the gentle ministrations of Torquemada? Reformations work better, and Christianity actually does do that a fair amount.  Certainly more than the other two.  Pace can be glacial, to be sure.



Smoothie Queen said:


> But the Jewish people of Israel also believe that their god gave them that land / intended for them to have that land, which is a massive part of why the conflict exists.
> 
> And afaik Muslims in Israel are often treated as second-class citizens - as are African Jewish people, for that matter, which does not reflect well on Israel as a state.



Christians too, actually.  Jews are very big on "Israel for Jews".  That being said, some Jews might say God gave them that land but from what I gather that happens to be a great excuse and not too much more.  The Balfour Declaration gave them that land and last I checked the Brits weren't God.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Islam is also a multifaceted religion with more and less peaceful sects, as you specifically mention, just like Christianity and Judaism. There are many Islamic people who are not violent and who do not practice their religion in a violent way or a way that condones or encourages violence. So why don't you make excuses for them the way that you do for Christianity and Judaism? This is where we disagree: I think _all_ of these religions are wrong. I don't cherry-pick and only go after the "foreign" one while making endless excuses for the others and claiming they're somehow better, so long as we ignore all the terrorism and bigoted murders and whatnot.


It's very multifaceted and yet somewhere in the neighborhood of 66 percent of ALL MUSLIMS WORLDWIDE support Sharia Law, aka the law that justifies stoning rape victims to death, throwing homosexuals from buildings and giving atheists 3 days in a jail cell to convert or get their head chopped off for their temerity.  I don't intend to make excuses for any one of them, but credit where credit is due.  To call Islam the "foreign" one is a very strange thing to me.  They're all foreign to the West.  They originated in the Middle East, for the most part, and spread outwards.  If you're an American the only "native" religions would be the various flavors of animism practiced by various indigenous tribes.  As for their wrongness? I don't think any of them are right.  I've been an agnostic-leaning-atheist for decades.  Difference between "wrong" and "harmful", though this isn't to say they're not all some mixture of both... but I'm way more worried about the one that has 2/3 of its followers approve of barbaric honor-culture garbage that would make an LDS fundie blanch.



Smoothie Queen said:


> What you have to keep in mind when considering the way Islam is presented now is that the entire Middle Eastern region has been destabilized for decades now due to the direct actions of the United States government and other (Christian-based, interestingly) governments - _We_ overthrew the tolerant and progressive government in Iran and put into power a religious zealot! We did that! _We _invaded Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses and destroyed their countries and governments! _We opened the door_ to religious extremism through these actions. We persecute Islam in some countries while allowing religious extremism to flourish in countries that we profit off of a relationship with (Saudi Arabia, for example) and protect those countries from organizations like the UN. The US, led by the Christian right, has had a serious and unforgettable impact on the state of the Middle East. And as many scholars will tell you, issues like political unrest, war, poverty, and so on all lead to increases in religious extremism. So there is that.


The Shah of Iran was a bit of a dick, and he was actually our guy.  There's a reason Iran called us the Great Satan after that revolution came to pass and the Ayatollahs sat their fat asses at the top of the heap.  The Iranians made a pretty OK showing of it for a while before the revolution, yes, but we didn't depose the Shah.  We were pissed about that revolution to the point where we refused to so much as sell them parts and stuff like Phoenix missile systems for the F-14 Tomcats we sold the old government.  Yes, Iran has F-14s.  Not many other places got that bird.  As for Christians persecuting Muslims? It happens, I'm sure, but to bemoan that while shuffling awkwardly and #notallmuslims about the reverse situation happening WAY more often is very odd to me.  Ever hear of the Copts?



Smoothie Queen said:


> The other thing to consider is that, as Westerners (I don't know if you're American but this is especially true to Americans), we only see a biased and extremely negative view of Islam. We are taught and told on the news, in classes, etc. that Islam is a violent and terrible religion, that Muslims are all terrorists, etc. You can see a lot of that kind of ignorant, one-sided stereotyping on this post and hell, on this entire forum. The picture we are shown of Islam through our right-wing media and the word-of-mouth of bigots is not the complete picture of Islam. It is a biased picture intended to make us hate Muslim people and fear their religion.


I live around a number of them.  They are _not_ nice people when they've decided they don't like you.  They earn the guff they get a lot of the time.  No Episcopalian or Methodist or Mormon or Orthodox Jew ever tried to hurt me.



Smoothie Queen said:


> I don't believe it's as simple as "Islam bad, Christianity/Judaism good". All Abrahamic religions endorse violence and do violence onto others. The only reason you all think that Islam is somehow worse, or that Christianity and Judaism are somehow better, is because the latter have better PR and are (primarily) centered in wealthy, Western countries where the conditions for widespread social unrest and religious extremism don't currently exist - though rates of religious extremism in the US and Europe are on the rise.


You're right, and that's why I didn't use qualifiers like good or bad.  The reason I think Islam is worse is because they have the track record to prove it and they aren't particularly shy about people knowing that.



Smoothie Queen said:


> All Abrahamic religions should be held accountable for their violence, their words, their beliefs and actions. All Abrahamic religions should be stripped of their societal and governmental power. Not just the one that happens to be mostly brown people (and don't think this has nothing to do with it, it has everything to do with why Islam is singled out).


...Brown people? Oh honey.  If you want to know what one of the scariest things on Earth is, try a white Muslim convert with a chip on his shoulder.  Lots of brown Christians, and if you get into the Jews there's more than the ostensibly-white Ashkenazim.


----------



## Smoothie Queen (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> WBC isn't a church, they're legal trolls.



They are a church as well as being trolls and horrible people. Just because you don't think they're doing things "right" or whatever doesn't make them less affiliated with Christianity. Your posts have an awful lot of "well _this_ Christian group / atrocity / etc doesn't count because Reasons" kind of stuff going on, I hope you notice that. It makes it look like you aren't able to be objective about the issue and have an interest (whether conscious or subconscious) in excusing away Christian wrongdoings and trying to separate Christian wrongdoers from the church so that you can make Christianity look better.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> It's more about the good denouncing does, or rather the LACK of it, in both directions.  It earns surprisingly little good faith from others to denounce, and it does surprisingly little good at correcting the problem that prompted the denouncement.



It shows that the church isn't aligned with bigots and terrorists, isn't that enough?



Sprig of Parsley said:


> Rape makes no sense, though.  I don't remember anything that would, even creatively interpreted, be suitable for justifying rape.



Conversion therapy, for one.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> That being said, some Jews might say God gave them that land but from what I gather that happens to be a great excuse and not too much more.



Once again, you're making excuses - "oh, they don't _really_ believe this is for god!" - to make a religion look better so that you can set up Islam to look worse by comparison. Many of them probably do genuinely believe that their god gave them that land or wanted them to have it.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> It's very multifaceted and yet somewhere in the neighborhood of 66 percent of ALL MUSLIMS WORLDWIDE support Sharia Law



Could I get a source for this, please? I have never seen this number.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> To call Islam the "foreign" one is a very strange thing to me.  They're all foreign to the West.



You know what I'm talking about. It's not really cute to pretend you don't. The majority of people in white, Western countries are either Christian or Jewish. The majority of Muslims are Middle Eastern and South Asian. This has a large impact on how these religions are seen and how their practitioners are perceived.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> The Shah of Iran was a bit of a dick, and he was actually our guy.



I'm actually not going to debate the history with you, because I don't really have the time to look up sources and make sure I have everything in front of me right now, but suffice to say that we do have a long and storied history of sewing dissent in the region.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> I live around a number of them.  They are _not_ nice people when they've decided they don't like you.  They earn the guff they get a lot of the time.



Are people normally nice when they've decided they don't like you? This is just.. racist stereotyping based on personal anecdotes. Not a good look in a debate, man.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> The reason I think Islam is worse is because they have the track record to prove it and they aren't particularly shy about people knowing that.



Christianity has the track record as well, but you make constant excuses for them and #notallchristians constantly to try to excuse them.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> ...Brown people? Oh honey.



If you could please not condescend to me when I'm trying to have a good faith debate, that would be lovely, thanks.


----------



## wellthathappened (Jun 17, 2019)

Oh... Sprig is still doing unfortunate things. 

Political Islam will need to go through some sort of reformation to be compatible with western values in 2019. Perhaps it never will due to cultural differences of where political Islam has power.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Smoothie Queen said:


> They are a church as well as being trolls and horrible people. Just because you don't think they're doing things "right" or whatever doesn't make them less affiliated with Christianity. Your posts have an awful lot of "well _this_ Christian group / atrocity / etc doesn't count because Reasons" kind of stuff going on, I hope you notice that. It makes it look like you aren't able to be objective about the issue and have an interest (whether conscious or subconscious) in excusing away Christian wrongdoings and trying to separate Christian wrongdoers from the church so that you can make Christianity look better.


I don't want to "excuse away" Christian wrongdoings but I won't pretend that they're "just as bad" as Islam.  I didn't say anyone failed to count, I said an exceptional and poorly-regarded minority of practitioners supporting exceptional shit like the WBC and LDS fundies and so on are a VERY bad yardstick for the rest of the bunch.  Christianity never needed my help to look better than Islam, all they had to do was show up to the party and let Islam do another honor killing or suicide bombing or botched conquest-turned-mass-murder in front of everyone.



Smoothie Queen said:


> It shows that the church isn't aligned with bigots and terrorists, isn't that enough?


For you it might be, but most people want things to actually change and the whole point of a church is to basically establish the most foolproof top-down control system ever.  "The biggest, most important person in the entire universe thinks you should fucking knock it off and here's scriptural proof" should mean something to the offenders but it doesn't a lot of the time and it apparently doesn't mean much to onlookers either as a result.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Conversion therapy, for one.


I've heard of it but I cannot FATHOM a scriptural justification for it in any sense.  I read the entire damn KJV out of boredom at least once and unless there's a really fucking weird or super-ambiguous passage in there I'm not remembering that can be interpreted to mean "rape them straight" I don't think anyone could say scripture supports that.  Idiots will do idiotic things.  Muslims prefer tall buildings or forced SRS, which may or may not be worse than rape depending on your personal take.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Once again, you're making excuses - "oh, they don't _really_ believe this is for god!" - to make a religion look better so that you can set up Islam to look worse by comparison. Many of them probably do genuinely believe that their god gave them that land or wanted them to have it.


OK, if you're certain many of them PROBABLY do, then I guess you have a burden of proof here.  Something to keep in mind is that, like I said earlier, Jews are Schrodinger's Seculars at times and being Jewish is about as much a tribe as it is a religious affiliation.  Lots of "Jewish atheists" about, and it isn't always logically inconsistent when they explain it to you.  On the whole, if I had to choose between Islam and Judaism being worse, I'm going to choose Islam because the really backwards Jews like the Hasidic ones that put up signs in NY boroughs commanding women to make way for men and other backwards shit are a definite minority whereas if you pitched the idea of women never having right of way to a lot of Muslims they'd just say "You forgot the part where they need to be escorted by a man and properly covered."



Smoothie Queen said:


> Could I get a source for this, please? I have never seen this number.


This would have likely been the source and someone aggregated it into this



Smoothie Queen said:


> You know what I'm talking about. It's not really cute to pretend you don't. The majority of people in white, Western countries are either Christian or Jewish. The majority of Muslims are Middle Eastern and South Asian. This has a large impact on how these religions are seen and how their practitioners are perceived.


And yet I have no beef with SE Asians of any other given stripe, I have no beef with Semitic peoples in the ME as a race.  Let me blow your mind for a minute.  If I say I think some of the black Southern churches that have pastors that scream constantly about how horrid teh gay is are not nice people, am I racist or is it cool because I'm validating your hateboner for Christianity?



Smoothie Queen said:


> I'm actually not going to debate the history with you, because I don't really have the time to look up sources and make sure I have everything in front of me right now, but suffice to say that we do have a long and storied history of sewing dissent in the region.


I accept your surrender.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Are people normally nice when they've decided they don't like you? This is just.. racist stereotyping based on personal anecdotes. Not a good look in a debate, man.


Islam ain't a race.  I didn't say what race they were.  And I've had Christians unequivocally tell me that they thought I was horrible but you know what? They didn't follow that up with physical assault.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Christianity has the track record as well, but you make constant excuses for them and #notallchristians constantly to try to excuse them.


You gonna plead the fifth here as well in regards to not having history books in front of you?



Smoothie Queen said:


> If you could please not condescend to me when I'm trying to have a good faith debate, that would be lovely, thanks.


Your naivete was breathtaking, your assumptions of racism are insulting as hell and nowhere near in good faith, and I'm honestly being nice about it.


wellthathappened said:


> Oh... Sprig is still doing unfortunate things.
> 
> Political Islam will need to go through some sort of reformation to be compatible with western values in 2019. Perhaps it never will due to cultural differences of where political Islam has power.



I was doing ok until she decided to make it about race when it's nothing of the sort.  And I don't like people impugning my motives with crap like that.


----------



## Smoothie Queen (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> Christianity never needed my help to look better than Islam, all they had to do was show up to the party and let Islam do another honor killing or suicide bombing or botched conquest-turned-mass-murder in front of everyone.



Says the guy making constant excuses for Christianity...



Sprig of Parsley said:


> I've heard of it but I cannot FATHOM a scriptural justification for it in any sense.



Well, (Christian) god said stone the gays to death, so I guess they're probably stemming from that.



Sprig of Parsley said:


> This would have likely been the source and someone aggregated it into this



That study surveyed, in most cases, less than one-thousand men from each area they went to. That's not a very good sample size to say how all Muslims think, especially as, again, it completely eliminates the majority of Muslim women from the survey. It's deeply flawed.

Irregardless, I never argued that Islam was not harmful. I merely argue that _all_ Abrahamic religions are equally harmful.

After all, don't Christians right here in the US argue for religious law? Say.. abortion bans and life sentences for women who don't want to be pregnant, perhaps? The death sentence for women who cause miscarriage because they can't access abortion? You know, the part where the religious Christian right wants the state to murder women for it?



Sprig of Parsley said:


> Your naivete was breathtaking, your assumptions of racism are insulting as hell and nowhere near in good faith, and I'm honestly being nice about it.



You know, you can go on the rest of your screeds without me, I'm sure. You know damn well why I stated that racism is a factor, and your little dance of "I can't be racist because I say I'm not racist" is completely unconvincing. Your condescension and arrogant BSing, along with your repeatedly making excuses for religious extremists of other stripes, is equal parts annoying and stupid. So I'm done for this evening. Have a nice night.


----------



## wellthathappened (Jun 17, 2019)

I'm not sure voting for changes in law is comparable to engaging in Abrahamic  justice. This seems as absurd as saying all Muslims who live in western countries want Sharia Law.


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Smoothie Queen said:


> Says the guy making constant excuses for Christianity...


Says the woman stanning for Islam.  The irony is not lost on me.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Well, (Christian) god said stone the gays to death, so I guess they're probably stemming from that.


Stoning to death = raping straight? Even for religious zealots that would be reaching very, very hard.  If this were a "Scripture supports it" thing you'd expect these nutters to be killing gays for God, not trying to "fix" them in the most ass-backwards way imaginable.



Smoothie Queen said:


> That study surveyed, in most cases, less than one-thousand men from each area they went to. That's not a very good sample size to say how all Muslims think, especially as, again, it completely eliminates the majority of Muslim women from the survey. It's deeply flawed.


I'm gonna ask you a question and you're going to think I'm being sexist or something, but how many Muslim women have you met and talked to personally? And it's a better sample size than anything you've submitted thus far.  Your move.



Smoothie Queen said:


> Irregardless, I never argued that Islam was not harmful. I merely argue that _all_ Abrahamic religions are equally harmful.


Your obsession with making them EEEEQUAL is bizarre and unnecessary.  I can despise dark elements of any given religion in their own right.  It's just that there are LOT MORE DARK ELEMENTS IN ISLAM.



Smoothie Queen said:


> After all, don't Christians right here in the US argue for religious law? Say.. abortion bans and life sentences for women who don't want to be pregnant, perhaps? The death sentence for women who cause miscarriage because they can't access abortion? You know, the part where the religious Christian right wants the state to murder women for it?


You should see how Muslims handle such matters.



Smoothie Queen said:


> You know, you can go on the rest of your screeds without me, I'm sure. You know damn well why I stated that racism is a factor, and your little dance of "I can't be racist because I say I'm not racist" is completely unconvincing. Your condescension and arrogant BSing, along with your repeatedly making excuses for religious extremists of other stripes, is equal parts annoying and stupid. So I'm done for this evening. Have a nice night.


You're assuming bad faith and nothing will ever convince you that I'm not acting in bad faith but capitulation to your particular view.  That's silly.  You're silly.  In any event, I was favoring you with a debate, which is clearly not what you wanted.  You wanted a pat on the head and a cookie.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.


----------



## Basil II (Jun 17, 2019)

Smoothie Queen said:


> But Christian religious doctrine was used to excuse and allow things like the colonization of foreign states. The idea that being Christian made westerners more important/right/good than the "heathen savages" they trampled under their feet was significant in the atrocities that Europeans committed in Africa, to the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia, and so on. They slaughtered and starved and raped thousands upon thousands because they felt their god demanded it. They took children from their parents and tortured them into "accepting" Christianity and European/Christian culture and language, often raping and murdering them whenever they felt like it, allowing them to die of preventable diseases, etc. Furthermore, to bring things into the present day, Christian extremists now commit terror attacks on abortion clinics, Jewish temples, mosques, etc. in the name of their god. You can't really claim that Christianity is nonviolent when these things have been happening for centuries and involve far, far more than just the Crusades.
> 
> And as to Judaism, look what they do to the Palestinians in the name of _their_ god. They bomb hospitals, murder children, and try to starve out an entire population. Of course this is not reflective of all Jewish people any more than abortion clinic bombings reflect all of Christianity, but the fact remains that these are Jewish people committing atrocities in the name of their god.
> 
> ...


Evil people will do evil things and justify it through religion, but that doesn't mean the religion itself supports violence.  Half the time it's the Clerics who are against senseless violence and torture. Look at the 30 Years War, centuries before European colonization of Africa, the excuse to go to war was religion but the actual reason was people saw a pathway to power, Catholic France, Sunni Ottomans, and Orthodox Russia allied with Protestants because they all wanted to fuck the Austro-Spanish Habsburg Empire that was cucking the rest of Europe at the time.

You're falling for the same propaganda the monarchs used to justify their barbarity.
By the time Europeans rolled up to Africa religion was irrelevant to their political goals, the clerics could bitch and moan all they want but Leopold II was gonna cut off those sweet hands.

Christian Terrorist attacks are so fucking uncommon, they only happen like once every 5 years, meanwhile Islamic Terror attacks happen on the daily in the Middle East and every month a European capital gets bombed, which leads to cunts like Sadiq Khan saying dumb shit like his part and parcel drivel, I wonder why Islamic Terrorism is dead in the U.S.? What does Europe have that the U.S. doesn't that would cause Islamic Terror to happen? 

Out of the entire 350 years the Spanish Inquisition was in effect, less than 5,000 people were executed, let me calculate the average execution for each year.
>14 people
Keep, in mind, that's using the HIGHEST estimate of executions, also keep in mind, that the inquisition was in effect throughout their entire empire, Spain, the Netherlands, Naples, Portugal, North Africa, Mexico, the Caribbean, South America, and the Philippines.
5 different continents, 30 million people and less than 14 were executed each year.
I tried to calculate the chance that you would get killed by the inquisition in Spain and it spat out fucking Scientific Notation, that's how low the chance was.

3,000 people died on the September 11 attacks, a single event, compare that to the literal centuries the Spanish Inquisition was in effect.


----------



## AF 802 (Jun 17, 2019)

"Execute all Muslims!" I say wearing a Third Position shirt while masturbating to pictures of Brenton Tarrant.

Even if we were to murder all Muslims like a lot of people have suggested in this thread, do you think murdering a quarter of the world's population would solve anything, essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited? While I do have concerns about Islam myself, I'm nowhere near the 8chan memery that they say about Islam. The thing here is to focus on the ones who grew up here and reform that way instead of autistically blasting Remove Kebab into mosques while you gun down a bunch of brown people. That's no way to go about things.

Rate me dumb all you want, but genociding any group of people doesn't work.


----------



## wellthathappened (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig, despite all his faults and autism didn't advocate genocide....


----------



## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Give Her The D said:


> "Execute all Muslims!" I say wearing a Third Position shirt while masturbating to pictures of Brenton Tarrant.
> 
> Even if we were to murder all Muslims like a lot of people have suggested in this thread, do you think murdering a quarter of the world's population would solve anything, essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited? While I do have concerns about Islam myself, I'm nowhere near the 8chan memery that they say about Islam. The thing here is to focus on the ones who grew up here and reform that way instead of autistically blasting Remove Kebab into mosques while you gun down a bunch of brown people. That's no way to go about things.
> 
> Rate me dumb all you want, but genociding any group of people doesn't work.


I already mentioned it, but if you can destroy Saudi Arabia's clammy grip on it you might be able to get a reform through.  I wouldn't say Muslims are evil by default but there is very little good to be found in the ideology as it exists unless you look to the Ahmadi "heresy".  You don't need to be evil at heart to do horrible things, frankly, especially if you're convinced what you're doing is downright godly.


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## Basil II (Jun 17, 2019)

Give Her The D said:


> "Execute all Muslims!" I say wearing a Third Position shirt while masturbating to pictures of Brenton Tarrant.
> 
> Even if we were to murder all Muslims like a lot of people have suggested in this thread, do you think murdering a quarter of the world's population would solve anything, essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited? While I do have concerns about Islam myself, I'm nowhere near the 8chan memery that they say about Islam. The thing here is to focus on the ones who grew up here and reform that way instead of autistically blasting Remove Kebab into mosques while you gun down a bunch of brown people. That's no way to go about things.
> 
> Rate me dumb all you want, but genociding any group of people doesn't work.


I don't think anyone who's not an actual retard wants to glass the entire Middle East, people just like joking about stuff.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Basil II said:


> I don't think anyone who's not an actual exceptional individual wants to glass the entire Middle East, people just like joking about stuff.


I'd prefer an utterly bloodless series of reforms but there are many people invested in not allowing that to ever come to pass, and they tend to have a lot of guns and sharp objects.


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## Basil II (Jun 17, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> I'd prefer an utterly bloodless series of reforms but there are many people invested in not allowing that to ever come to pass, and they tend to have a lot of guns and sharp objects.


agreed, anyone trying to pass reform in Islam is gonna get assassinated pretty quickly, the only actual lasting solution is conversion away.


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## murgatroid (Jun 17, 2019)

I like to question Muslims about Mahumid being a pedo and other questionable stuff in Islam. His youngest wife Aisha was 9 years old and he consummated the marriage when she was 12 or 13. 

Another ridiculous part of the quran is a passage about politely leaving mahumid's house when you are a guest and not overstaying your welcome and making mahumid uncomfortable.


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## Basil II (Jun 17, 2019)

murgatroid said:


> I like to question Muslims about Mahumid being a pedo and other questionable stuff in Islam. His youngest wife Aisha was 9 years old and he consummated the marriage when she was 12 or 13.
> 
> Another ridiculous part of the quran is a passage about politely leaving mahumid's house when you are a guest and not overstaying your welcome and making mahumid uncomfortable.


She was actually 6 when they married, and was consummated when she was 9. However they enganged in thigh sex before then.
The house thing is one of my favorite passages, it makes Muhammad look like an actual autist lmao.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 17, 2019)

Something that legit bothers me about Islam (in the "that can't be healthy" way) is how INCREDIBLY fatalistic they are.  Everything happens because Allah wills it.  If it didn't happen? Allah didn't will it.  Free will is not there.  They do whatever and it's "inshallah."  They might put a lot of work into it, they might half-ass it, but inshallah.

Most Christians I've talked to pay lipservice to free will, at _least_.  I don't understand how that can be consistent with an omniscient creator but they tend to at least kind of act like free will is a thing.  Some retreat from that into Let Go and Let God a bit quicker than others, but Islam has no use for free will at all.


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## murgatroid (Jun 18, 2019)

Basil II said:


> She was actually 6 when they married, and was consummated when she was 9. However they enganged in thigh sex before then.
> The house thing is one of my favorite passages, it makes Muhammad look like an actual autist lmao.


There are different ages floating around, but regardless they all say she was a child and the marriage was consummated when she was extremely young as well.


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## Sable (Jun 18, 2019)

People are probably going to disagree with me here, but integrating Muslims into local cultures was working pretty fine here right until they decided to import a fuckton of the worst sort, in  numbers where they can easily stick to their own muslim clusters and not assimilate.

The naturalised suffered badly because of this because they were no longer radically muslim enough.

That only really works for small groups of muslims that exist long enough outside the echo chamber. For Islam as a whole? It's not looking good TBH. Maybe if they had a continent spanning 30 year religious war that kills most of them they'd eventually work on some sort of peace, but that's pretty optimistic.


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## Basil II (Jun 18, 2019)

Sable said:


> People are probably going to disagree with me here, but integrating Muslims into local cultures was working pretty fine here right until they decided to import a fuckton of the worst sort, in  numbers where they can easily stick to their own muslim clusters and not assimilate.
> 
> The naturalised suffered badly because of this because they were no longer radically muslim enough.
> 
> That only really works for small groups of muslims that exist long enough outside the echo chamber. For Islam as a whole? It's not looking good TBH. Maybe if they had a continent spanning 30 year religious war that kills most of them they'd eventually work on some sort of peace, but that's pretty optimistic.


eh I think it would work fine even with a large number, look at how cucked Islam became under the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union despite a lot of areas being almost wholly Muslim.


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## Sable (Jun 18, 2019)

Basil II said:


> eh I think it would work fine even with a large number, look at how cucked Islam became under the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union despite a lot of areas being almost wholly Muslim.



That's because the Russian Empire and Soviet Union weren't pussywhipped like the western europe currently accepting them is.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 18, 2019)

The trouble with the dynamic we have going is that for the loonie religious types, both the Social Justice and Alt-Right mentalities are a dream come true. You have the crimes and violence of extremists to point at and tell your followers to panic over, you have the nasty deport/kill/nuke them all Alt-Right attitude to point to and say "See? The infidels despise us!" and you have Social Justice to let you successfully infiltrate society under the guise of solidarity when in reality those pacifists are a bunch of push-overs.

Islamic extremism, like any other religious extremism, is not motivated at all by faith. Its motivated, much like anything else, by a bunch of unhinged power-seeking assholes who are out only for themselves. And they just know what to say to their followers to get them to do what they want. There are several fascinating documentaries on the subject of Muslim suicide bombers, and guess what, most of them are just kids or teenagers. Its actually a pretty simple scheme. You take some kid from a goat-fucking family who has had no real worldly experience except the Koran, and just tell them a bunch of lies or better yet dig up some unflattering news stories of people destroying that one thing in the whole world the kid actually unconditionally loves. Then you feed them some simple lies about the afterlife (for the older ones) or tell them the vests aren't actually lethal (for the younger ones) and, boom, instant Shake-and-Bake Jihadi.

In modernized countries, the dynamic changes. White kids shoot up schools all the time over here just because of the struggle of being an aggressive teenager in modern society. Add in the alienation of being born to an immigrant family to the rage of your typical punk and, once again, you have a Jihadi.

How do we fix this? Fucked if I know. Trying to create an ultra-politically correct movement that is all-inclusive like Social Justice clearly just pulls your teeth and leaves you defenseless against infiltrators. Being an asshole about immigration and presuming that muslims are somehow predisposed to violence more than the average punk also just fuels their perception that the western world is out to get them though. At least in America you can often let nature take its course and corrupt the natrualized generation into douchey, gun-toting, fast food-eating assholes like the rest of us are (I've witnessed this firsthand many times, its definitely not impossible). But with Europe and its legacy of cultural guilt for Colonialism, the idea of Europeanization is pretty much verboten.

Edit: Spelling error that was pissing me off.


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## queerape (Jun 19, 2019)

There's this person I know who's a white convert to Islam, and  he was a friend of mine in college.  He seemed really nice and like any other Muslim when I knew him, but since I graduated a few years ago he has become more conservative and are posting more extreme stuff which I am finding concerning. Today he posted a pic of a woman in a niqab with some Quran quote, and he even covered her eyes with the word Tauba, which in Urdu and Arabic means avert your eyes from something lustful.  I have used it jokingly before in reference to my boyfriend, but he was being totally serious here.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 19, 2019)

queerape said:


> There's this person I know who's a white convert to Islam, and  he was a friend of mine in college.  He seemed really nice and like any other Muslim when I knew him, but since I graduated a few years ago he has become more conservative and are posting more extreme stuff which I am finding concerning. Today he posted a pic of a woman in a niqab with some Quran quote, and he even covered her eyes with the word Tauba, which in Urdu and Arabic means avert your eyes from something lustful.  I have used it jokingly before in reference to my boyfriend, but he was being totally serious here.


What happens a lot of the time with white people who say the Shahadah is that they get a chip on their shoulder and are overeager to prove they're a REAL MUSLIM.  This leads to shit like that Swedish guy who fucking joined ISIS.  The fervor of the newly-converted is a real fucking thing.


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## JektheDumbass (Jun 20, 2019)

We hack Israel's computers and set off a few nukes to Mecca.  We then wait until the dust settles and mop up the rest.


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## Trig.Point (Jun 20, 2019)

I think sometimes a little bit of intolerance is a good thing, and I don't necessarily hold it against Islam for not changing scripture to take account of western societal trends. 

With regards the lefts love for Islam, I think it's largely being promoted by a strand of the left that just hate western society, in a way they're on the same page as so called Islamaphobes. The rest of the left the LGBTQI++ they're just mostly weak individuals so used to having hissy fits at Micro Aggressions they can't recognise a group that would see them all flung off buildings if they could.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 20, 2019)

I propose a new global religion of Syncretic Mormon Buddhist Confucianism.


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## YikNemoShmoall (Jun 20, 2019)

The Muslims I have met (mainly taxi drivers) have always been friendly, warm, funny and polite so have felt that the fear of 'the Islam problem' in my country did have a bit of the phoboism about it. Yes there are bomb-the-world-extremists but there are extremists with other  beliefs ( all aka lookseegloriousme).

Then I spent some time here https://www.ummah.com/forum/ (I see KF has been there too) and was sideswiped by what is accepted in Islamic culture and how different the worldview is. So much is just not compatible and is intolerant (although they do have memes ..kind of. whatever that means..) to 'western' society.

Solution? Maybe ISIS had a good plan? have a crazy caliphate some place where the hardliners can go to live and die by their own rules. 



Give Her The D said:


> essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited?



I get why the genocide thing is bad but why is this?


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Jun 23, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> Most Christians I've talked to pay lipservice to free will, at _least_. I don't understand how that can be consistent with an omniscient creator but they tend to at least kind of act like free will is a thing. Some retreat from that into Let Go and Let God a bit quicker than others, but Islam has no use for free will at all.



One crucial difference between Christianity and Islam is that the former is centered more around the salvation of the individual (hence it's emphasis on faith as a personal relationship to the divine), whereas the latter is centered more around the salvation of society (hence it's emphasis on the collective adherence to divine law). Free will is a concept which is generally understood to apply to individuals, so it would make sense that Islam would make fewer references to it.

This probably also ties into why Christianity generally appears to be much more conducive to civilization than Islam is. While the former lays the groundwork for innovation and progress through it's encouragement of individual betterment (see: protestant work ethic), the latter spurns the very notion of innovation, and thus lays the groundwork for stagnation, subsequent frustration, and eventual violence.


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## AF 802 (Jun 25, 2019)

I've come to accept that it's either conversion or genocide. You're inhuman if you stay Muslim.


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## The Estatist (Jun 25, 2019)

Do what the Han Chinese are doing with Uyghurs if you need Achmeds around.


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