# The Paranormal



## Tinfoil (May 28, 2022)

I was wondering if anyone else had an interest in the Paranormal.  I watch many videos that are based on the subject.  Large amounts can be discounted as hoaxes.  But occasionally, you come across videos you can't simply explain away as video editing, strings, or extras.  The interesting thing is, that plausible videos often exhibit similar paranormal characteristics, despite the paranormal tropes differing between cultures.

I usually check Nukes Top 5 as he usually collates the most interesting videos, (though sometimes clearly hoaxes)


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## Testacles Maximus (May 28, 2022)

I saw a ghost.


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## Joe Swanson (May 28, 2022)

1 Samuel 28: 7-19


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## Lone MacReady (May 28, 2022)

I played Fatal Frame once, really scary shit.


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## Lord of the Large Pants (May 28, 2022)

Never seen anything personally, but I think it's pretty likely that there are things out there that defy physicalist categories, even if it's not exactly clear what that would be like. I rather like ghost stories and things like that.


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## Underperforming (May 28, 2022)

Ghosts aren’t real


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## Russian Bot (May 28, 2022)

I've seen some shit, but




and honestly the amount of sperging (calling me a liar, mentally ill, drug addict, delusional etc) I've seen over the years if I ever try to discuss it makes me not want to bring up anything personal.

There's a lot of fake stuff out there, but some of it is real. I think a lot of the fake stuff is so when something real comes out, it's harder to know if it's real and you dismiss it as just some bullshit.


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## Penis Drager (May 28, 2022)

Humans (and other animals) have an innate tendency to ascribe agency to natural phenomena. It's a holdover from the days when avoiding the bush that seems to be rustling _a bit too much_ for it to be just the wind could be a matter of life or death. This combined with a tendency to latch onto spurious correlations results in superstitious thinking. 
To the latter point: I believe it was a study done on pigeons where they were fed completely randomly. It didn't take long for them to form a set of "superstitious" behaviors where they would engage in increasingly complex rituals when they were hungry. The standard interpretation of these findings is that these pigeons thought these actions would result in them getting fed because they happened to get fed when they were doing them despite it being totally random. 

Anyway: my point is it's all bullshit. Your mind's playing tricks on you. It may seem compelling when you think of the odds of certain weird things all happening together by coincidence but given how many such coincidences _could _happen, it would be odd if none of them _did_.


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## Sailor Kim Jong Moon (May 28, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> Humans (and other animals) have an innate tendency to ascribe agency to natural phenomena. It's a holdover from the days when avoiding the bush that seems to be rustling _a bit too much_ for it to be just the wind could be a matter of life or death. This combined with a tendency to latch onto spurious correlations results in superstitious thinking.
> To the latter point: I believe it was a study done on pigeons where they were fed completely randomly. It didn't take long for them to form a set of "superstitious" behaviors where they would engage in increasingly complex rituals when they were hungry. The standard interpretation of these findings is that these pigeons thought these actions would result in them getting fed because they happened to get fed when they were doing them despite it being totally random.
> 
> Anyway: my point is it's all bullshit. Your mind's playing tricks on you. It may seem compelling when you think of the odds of certain weird things all happening together by coincidence but given how many such coincidences _could _happen, it would be odd if none of them _did_.


Nah. Ive seen straight up demonic shit. Ain’t no pigeon dance here. I appreciate the effort though


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## Penis Drager (May 28, 2022)

Sailor Kim Jong Moon said:


> Nah. Ive seen straight up demonic shit. Ain’t no pigeon dance here. I appreciate the effort though


With or without the meds?


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## BullDogsLipBrandClamjuice (May 28, 2022)

Dig dig old Coast to Coast broadcasts with Art bell. Fuck George Snoory


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## Sailor Kim Jong Moon (May 28, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> With or without the meds?


Lol - yeah, I know, I know. In my defense, there were other people to witness the weirder shit. Otherwise, I would’ve thought it was my brain schizo-ing out. So I get it.


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## Roast Chicken (May 28, 2022)

I don't believe in ghosts, but our loved ones still provide for us after death - because energy cannot be created or destroyed. The food you ate or the lightbulb you sat underneath once flowed through a person. We eat and gain warmth from their dissipated energy.


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## Penis Drager (May 28, 2022)

Roast Chicken said:


> I don't believe in ghosts, but our loved ones still provide for us after death - because energy cannot be created or destroyed. The food you ate or the lightbulb you sat underneath once flowed through a person. We eat and gain warmth from their dissipated energy.


That's retarded. You're retarded.


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## Associate Rick (May 28, 2022)

The second guy in that video looked like he had a ghost jerking off over him while he slept.


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## General Disarray (May 28, 2022)

I enjoy spoopy content just because it's fun. Caspersight is a reaction channel and breaks up the monotony of the videos he watches. Easy on the eyes, nice clean Brit, family man (but can be kinda annoying but not in a grating way to make him unwatchable). Just rambo it, mate!


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## Roast Chicken (May 28, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> That's retarded. You're retarded.


You're just sad because your phone is powered by the energy of criminals.


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## Penis Drager (May 28, 2022)

Roast Chicken said:


> You're just sad because your phone is powered by the energy of criminals.


My phone is powered primarily by natural gas as far as I know. It's the outgassing of dead foliage from buried swamps that existed some 300 million years ago. This was long before man set foot on the Earth.


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## ManInTheBlarms (May 28, 2022)

Your brain has a million ways to lie to you. There has yet to be a single piece of compelling evidence of ghosts or anything of the sort.



Roast Chicken said:


> I don't believe in ghosts, but our loved ones still provide for us after death - because energy cannot be created or destroyed. The food you ate or the lightbulb you sat underneath once flowed through a person. We eat and gain warmth from their dissipated energy.


"We're all made of stardust!!!" We get it faggot, go back to your mid-2000's rom coms.


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## Mothra1988 (May 29, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> With or without the meds?


Do you think real police departments would consult mediums if it was all just one huge LARP?  But twats like yourself don't care about what is true or not, you just care about making yourself seem smarter than everyone who knows better (which probably includes your own family I would bet) after making mid-wit comparisons to studies of the tiny brains of pigeons like any of that data is fucking meaningful (may as well studied flies or protozoa).  Might as well just flip on a TJ Kirk video.  Why would anyone want to relay their personal experiences to someone like you?


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## Penis Drager (May 29, 2022)

Mothra1988 said:


> Do you think real police departments would consult mediums if it was all just one huge LARP?


Why yes. I _do _think government agencies are that incompetent. Thanks for asking.


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## Mothra1988 (May 29, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> Why yes. I _do _think government agencies are that incompetent. Thanks for asking.


Oh yeah, except for the cases where it actually worked.  LOL.



			https://www.rd.com/list/mysteries-solved-by-psychics/


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## Penis Drager (May 29, 2022)

Mothra1988 said:


> Oh yeah, except for the cases where it actually worked.  LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.rd.com/list/mysteries-solved-by-psychics/


Just like you work on deez nutz. LOL.


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## Mothra1988 (May 29, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> Just like you work on deez nutz. LOL.


Thanks for conceding you were proven wrong.  LOL.


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## ToroidalBoat (May 29, 2022)

If I based my spiritual beliefs on my personal paranormal experience alone, I'd have been a "metaphysical naturalism" atheist.

(in other words I've never had any undeniably paranormal experiences that I can recall)


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## El Gato Grande (May 29, 2022)

Never experienced it, and I’m really skeptical of it, but I’m inclined to think at least some of it is real.

A striking detail of claims of paranormal activity is how common they are. I know multiple people through my family and friends who claim to have experienced dead relatives/people appearing to them as unmistakable supernatural events. Ghost hunting groups can find new locations every week. If you speak to a random stranger off the street about it, there’s actually a small but real chance they will claim to have had an experience themselves. Obviously a lot of stories of ghosts are little more than somebody getting scared of the sound of their house (or mind) slowly falling apart or hoaxes, and you have to take them all with a microscopic piece of salt, but if ghosts aren’t real, then that would have to mean a LOT of people are either crazy enough to either hallucinate on a regular basis or are willing to dedicate their lives to trolling and I don’t find that plausible.

I used to be into the whole ghost hunting/paranormal investigation sphere when I was a kid and what always struck me was the consistency a lot of the descriptions of paranormal activity have across numerous “victims” and ghost hunting organizations. Many “ghosts” were reported as exhibiting similar activity, such as manipulating temperature, appearing as shadows, speaking in EVP, etc, often with limited originality besides specific information such as where they were/why they died/etc. Internal consistency points towards something being at least partially real, because while a hoaxer can take inspiration from other accounts, a high degree of variation should be expected if ghosts aren’t real, and therefore every story is the result of human creativity instead of observations of something objective.

If I start hearing voices I’ll get myself checked for schizophrenia, but I’m never touching an Ouija board


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## trailcamwhore (May 29, 2022)

Ghost/UFO/etc. videos are the only popular avant-garde films.

Nuke's Top 5 —> Kenneth Anger pipeline.


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## Beast From 20000 Faggums (May 29, 2022)

I can believe in ghostly/ psychic phenomena (like the Stone Tape theory), but I doubt the retards on the SyFy and Travel channel have ever actually caught evidence of a ghost on all those Ghost Chasers and Haunted Hunting bs shows...


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## PaleTay (May 29, 2022)

I've seen a small child in reflections, and heard others say they've heard a child's voice in my house or other locations. Had my bed rock and it stopped when I told it to fuck off, same with knocking at the window. I have woken up to being scratched pretty badly. I'd prefer it to be a ghost/demon than anything logical.

I've seen animals do weird things in the deep woods, especially on Native land.


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## Mothra1988 (May 29, 2022)

El Gato Grande said:


> Never experienced it, and I’m really skeptical of it, but I’m inclined to think at least some of it is real.
> 
> A striking detail of claims of paranormal activity is how common they are. I know multiple people through my family and friends who claim to have experienced dead relatives/people appearing to them as unmistakable supernatural events. Ghost hunting groups can find new locations every week. If you speak to a random stranger off the street about it, there’s actually a small but real chance they will claim to have had an experience themselves. Obviously a lot of stories of ghosts are little more than somebody getting scared of the sound of their house (or mind) slowly falling apart or hoaxes, and you have to take them all with a microscopic piece of salt, but if ghosts aren’t real, then that would have to mean a LOT of people are either crazy enough to either hallucinate on a regular basis or are willing to dedicate their lives to trolling and I don’t find that plausible.
> 
> ...



Oujia is one of the easiest ways to communicate if you fee like you have an openness at all to the other side.  It's not for everyone though.  I wouldn't suggest it to people who have addictive personalities like smokers, etc., because you need to exhibit a good amount of restraint and not over do it or you could end up in some pretty messed up shit including possession.  Communicating with ghosts is kind of like feeding raccoons.  If you do it too much, you're going end up with always having raccoons at your house until the point it's an extreme nuisance. 

I think most normal people do have an under-lying assumption things like this are real and are just there, there's just no benefit to not go along with the status quo of people pretending it's hogwash because people don't like being scared and don't want to be mocked by smarmy atheist types who get off on the idea they are smarter than normal people.

I think most people that have had experiences have had them with dead relatives and even pets.  I'm reminded of my friend who acts all super skeptical of everything and then I asked her about communicating with dead pets, and she ended up admitting that her dead cat came to her for a while to communicate.  Due to how people are conditioned in our increasingly secular society, a lot of them just tend to take experiences like this and paper over them like an abuse victim can do to past trauma, because it's easier to accept a world where things like that don't happen and everything is like what Bill Nye said on TV when they were 10.  In other cultures, these events are just interpreted at face value without the skepticism because their belief system already accounts for it.


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## Fek (May 29, 2022)

Russian Bot said:


> I've seen some shit, but


Tell us your stories, fren. Some of us would be very highly interested in reading along. It's an anon (if you're doing it right) interweb forum, so let the sperging flow.


Mothra1988 said:


> Oujia is one of the easiest ways to communicate if you fee like you have an openness at all to the other side.


It helps that it primes the person/people involved with the expectations, belief, and intent required to do so, yeah. It's not that the board itself is spooky scary on its own; it's that so many _believe_ it's a receiver for the "beyond," and will go into the experience with the expectation (possibly the intent) that crazy shit is going to happen.

We're told throughout our entire lives that such things are hokum, but that couldn't be further from the truth.


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## Mothra1988 (May 29, 2022)

Fek said:


> It helps that it primes the person/people involved with the expectations, belief, and intent required to do so, yeah. It's not that the board itself is spooky scary on its own; it's that so many _believe_ it's a receiver for the "beyond," and will go into the experience with the expectation (possibly the intent) that crazy shit is going to happen.
> 
> We're told throughout our entire lives that such things are hokum, but that couldn't be further from the truth.



Personally, I think most people have a level of "openness" in regards to communication that exists somewhere on a scale from completely "closed" to psychic medium.  Openness can also fluctuate over people's life times.  For most people, they spike sometime during childhood or adolescence, and then become more closed as adults.  Certain life events can also re-open you later on.

From my experience, how well Ouija works depends on your level of openness.  So if you're in a group of five people, it may not work very well with certain people's fingers on the planchette, but it will work a lot better with others.  Politeness, tone and intent also matter.  It may also depend if there is something there that already wanted to communicate regardless such as a dead relative.  But in most cases, it's like a radio receiver like you said.  It's best to go in with no expectation of who you will talk to, because that's usually waht happens.

The idea that Parker Brothers invented this is ludicrous, these things have existed in some form since ancient times.  You could literally make an Ouija board out of the back of a pizza box and get the same exact results as if you bought one in the store.


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## Retired Junta Member (May 29, 2022)

I believe in ghosts and to reincarnation but I think they have scientific explanations. Ghosts aren’t spirits but the memory of an even that remains in a place, while reincarnation is just someone remembering another person’s memory (quantum physics has an explanation for both phenomenon that makes sense).


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## Deadwaste (May 30, 2022)

if ghosts are real, why cant i see them? and why cant i get them to suck my cock for me? i want some of that ghost pussy


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## Sailor Kim Jong Moon (May 30, 2022)

Deadwaste said:


> if ghosts are real, why cant i see them? and why cant i get them to suck my cock for me? i want some of that ghost pussy


Didn’t some celebrity get fucked by a ghost? Maybe go talk to her


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## Tinfoil (May 30, 2022)

Mothra1988 said:


> Oujia is one of the easiest ways to communicate if you fee like you have an openness at all to the other side. It's not for everyone though. I wouldn't suggest it to people who have addictive personalities like smokers, etc., because you need to exhibit a good amount of restraint and not over do it or you could end up in some pretty messed up shit including possession. Communicating with ghosts is kind of like feeding raccoons. If you do it too much, you're going end up with always having raccoons at your house until the point it's an extreme nuisance.







Retired Junta Member said:


> I believe in ghosts and to reincarnation but I think they have scientific explanations. Ghosts aren’t spirits but the memory of an even that remains in a place, while reincarnation is just someone remembering another person’s memory (quantum physics has an explanation for both phenomenon that makes sense).



I wonder if any government agency got involved in Paranormal phenomena.  Since if they are willing to admit they track UFO's, and were involved in "remote viewing" experiments, then what evidence would they have collected in regards to the paranormal?  What are the laws?  Are we talking alternate dimensions?


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## Wormy (May 30, 2022)

Oh yes, I do believe in the paranormal. 

But in what I've experience it's way more in common with Lovecraft than it is Patrick Swayze...


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## Dom Cruise (May 30, 2022)

There's definitely something to do it, I had an aunt, uncle and cousins that lived in a close to 200 year old farmhouse when I was a kid and they all had experiences, including my mom, that can't really be explained.

I don't feel like power leveling into specific stories, but they were things that are all pretty close to impossible to just handwave away, last time I spoke to my cousin about it I was actually surprised at his reaction when I brought it up, he just said "oh yeah, it was totally haunted" and shared a story I had never heard before about two heavy steel doors just slamming shut on their own, hard enough to shake the entire house even though no one was near them, how does stuff like that just happen?

I've never had a firsthand experience, but I've always been very open minded about this stuff because of all that, I feel like there's definitely a weird side to the world we live in that traditional science has yet to delve into.


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## Penis Drager (May 30, 2022)

Man, If I were a ghost, I would appear in front of a medium and fuck with them by feeding them false information about their clients.


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## Russian Bot (May 30, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> Man, If I were a ghost, I would appear in front of a medium and fuck with them by feeding them false information about their clients.


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## Penis Drager (May 30, 2022)

Russian Bot said:


>


Yeah, now imagine if there was a real ghost telling him a bunch of bullshit.


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## Russian Bot (May 30, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> Yeah, now imagine if there was a real ghost telling him a bunch of bullshit.


That was the point.


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## UtadaWasabi2 (May 30, 2022)

I just want to see hot female ghost.


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## Tinfoil (May 30, 2022)




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## Begemot (May 31, 2022)

Penis Drager said:


> Just like you work on deez nutz. LOL.


Hell, yeah! Make dat whiteboi submit!

*Also, adding some more greentexts to my paranormal thread.... https://kiwifarms.net/threads/general-paranormal-thread.57128/


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## Hallucinogenic Penguin (May 31, 2022)

PaleTay said:


> I've seen a small child in reflections, and heard others say they've heard a child's voice in my house or other locations. Had my bed rock and it stopped when I told it to fuck off, same with knocking at the window. I have woken up to being scratched pretty badly. I'd prefer it to be a ghost/demon than anything logical.
> 
> I've seen animals do weird things in the deep woods, especially on Native land.


Interested in hearing the animal stories.


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## PaleTay (May 31, 2022)

Hallucinogenic Penguin said:


> Interested in hearing the animal stories.


Most of them aren't really long enough to be stories and I was younger, just deer being aggressive or seeing giant insect mounds which weren't supposed to be anywhere nearby and to this day I have no idea what made them. There was a group of large predatory animals which seemed to get along for whatever reason but would watch people, like cougars, wolves, and sometimes bears sitting together in a clearing. We always stayed inside at night or left beforehand, and I was told that the reason was that the land itself was bad.


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## Mothra1988 (Jun 1, 2022)

PaleTay said:


> Most of them aren't really long enough to be stories and I was younger, just deer being aggressive or seeing giant insect mounds which weren't supposed to be anywhere nearby and to this day I have no idea what made them. There was a group of large predatory animals which seemed to get along for whatever reason but would watch people, like cougars, wolves, and sometimes bears sitting together in a clearing. We always stayed inside at night or left beforehand, and I was told that the reason was that the land itself was bad.


Weird animal behavior on plots of land is usually related to Indian curses.  Sometimes, these curses can stay in effect for hundreds of years especially if the tribe has moved on from that place (or was forced to leave) and there is no shaman there to lift it.


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## TheFinalCountdown (Jun 1, 2022)

I have seen threads on 4chan pop up with it's OP being something that I have been thinking about, it's like I predicted the future or something.

I think about something, and then a few moments later, a thread, or a reply to a thread shows up. The threads always are on point of what i'm thinking about, but replies often have some sort of reaction image that's related to it, or it's just me getting lucky.


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## veeeeeeeee (Jun 1, 2022)

UtadaWasabi2 said:


> I just want to see hot female ghost.


tfw no thick ectoplasm-y ghost wife. why even live bros?


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## Tacitus Kilgore (Jun 3, 2022)

I have seen people call UFOs paranormal. I believe they are real and not from this planet. I don't believe in ghosts though or demonic possession. I even saw a UFO once. Though in that case it was a unidentified flying object because I couldn't identify it exactly. It didn't fly but kind of floated slowly across the sky. This was back before drones were a popular toy for people. 

That's about all the paranormal I get into.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 4, 2022)

I have a theory on the paranormal. There is this assumption, a dogma, that because nobody has provided really good proof of things like ghosts or God or whatever other paranormal entity/phenomena, that means it doesn't exist. That kind of assumes that paranormal subjects follow the same materialistic rules as everything else, though, like being repeatable or detectable through experimentation. I don't know hardly anything about quantum physics, so forgive me if I get this completely wrong, but doesn't quantum entanglement have a thing going on where just "observing" a particle, in a literal sense, causes it to resolve into a state? There's an implication there that the act of perception, separate from material causes, can change the material world.

I think paranormal phenomena, if it exists (and consider me sort of optimistically agnostic on it), is by its very nature something that attempting to recreate it will cause it to disappear.

Specific forms of paranormal activity I am interested in include psychic connections between individuals, coincidences, and demons. Psychically, there are tons of stories where somebody will die and then their loved one will die on the same day without ever hearing the news. That cannot possibly be caused by shock or giving up if they didn't even know, and it seems to be more common than random chance would allow. On a less flashy scale, I often find that I will, again, separately from them (not living even in the same state), tend to feel sick, moods, or other such around the same time as my parents, particularly my Pa. I think that the soul/consciousness of some entities can be connected to others, certainly from birth but possibly also a sort of entangling from frequent interaction.

Coincidences, to me, are not really coincidences; that is, I believe they are built into the structure of the universe. There are tons of instances of mathematical beauty and symmetry and such in nature, and I think that coincidences are a sort of poetry built into the universe. Things (specific phrases, concepts, etc.) have a way of suddenly coming up in spates, and you can argue it's just noticing it but I don't buy that, too many times I've seen a word or phrase for the first time, suddenly encounter it several more times during a day, and then it goes away. Now, like I said, I don't consider these as having any significance in a schizo way, but I think they exist in a sense like nature rhymes with itself?

Lastly, I do believe demons exist. It's worth explaining, I think you can have non-material phenomena that interacts with the world through material means - I think it's the only real way you can explain the Hard Problem of Consciousness - and so, just because you can explain a certain phenomena as the action of certain parts of the brain or certain hormones, that doesn't mean that you can't also ascribe phenomena to spirits too. Night hags are a good example of that, you can 100% explain night hags through science, but to me that doesn't mean the night hag doesn't actually exist. Other sorts of demons would be whatever things spread evil thoughts in people, like the self-harming impulse, the other-harming impulse, evil ideologies. I also think, based on the example of superorganisms, that consciousness can exist at lower and higher levels of organization than we think of. A colony of ants are all individual creatures, clearly, following their own internal programming, yet they cooperate to act as a single units. So do the cells of a human body. Why should it not be that there could be some level of consciousness for the individual cells of the body, and similarly consciousness emerging at group levels like nations? (If you prefer, you can think of that as being like a China brain, but I think my idea's a bit different.) So I think there are potentially lots of conscious entities that are not animals as we think of them, which you can call paranormal if you want.

Don't really have any personal paranormal stories. My Pa had a ghost visitation from his best friend who died in Vietnam, but he also says he was drinking at the time and so he doesn't have a strong opinion on if the visitation was his imagination or real. He also had a relative who, in an episode of sleep paralysis, saw the night hag loom over his roommate, and the roommate died the next day, like a reaper.


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## Dom Cruise (Jun 4, 2022)

PaleTay said:


> Most of them aren't really long enough to be stories and I was younger, just deer being aggressive or seeing giant insect mounds which weren't supposed to be anywhere nearby and to this day I have no idea what made them. There was a group of large predatory animals which seemed to get along for whatever reason but would watch people, like cougars, wolves, and sometimes bears sitting together in a clearing. We always stayed inside at night or left beforehand, and I was told that the reason was that the land itself was bad.


That's creepy as fuck lmao.


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## Certified_Autist (Jun 5, 2022)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> I don't know hardly anything about quantum physics, so forgive me if I get this completely wrong, but doesn't quantum entanglement have a thing going on where just "observing" a particle, in a literal sense, causes it to resolve into a state? There's an implication there that the act of perception, separate from material causes, can change the material world.


Yes, the concept you are referring to is a real thing and was proven in the "double slit experiment" where particle behavior was dramatically altered simply by whether it was being observed. Its a very well known experiment in the physics field because it has been replicated many times over by many different scientists, with the same results every time.

Conventional physics is mostly stumped by it, and many consider it a random oddity. But I see it as possibly indirect evidence of a Creator, and as definite proof that humans are the center of the universe. If we really are just an "accident of evolution", then why does the Universe only function when we observe it?

It also raises interesting questions regarding the world being mind-over-matter but that's a whole other discussion.


Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> I think paranormal phenomena, if it exists (and consider me sort of optimistically agnostic on it), is by its very nature something that attempting to recreate it will cause it to disappear.
> 
> Specific forms of paranormal activity I am interested in include psychic connections between individuals, coincidences, and demons. Psychically, there are tons of stories where somebody will die and then their loved one will die on the same day without ever hearing the news. That cannot possibly be caused by shock or giving up if they didn't even know, and it seems to be more common than random chance would allow. On a less flashy scale, I often find that I will, again, separately from them (not living even in the same state), tend to feel sick, moods, or other such around the same time as my parents, particularly my Pa. I think that the soul/consciousness of some entities can be connected to others, certainly from birth but possibly also a sort of entangling from frequent interaction.


Building off your points on psychic "connections" between individuals, what is your view on reincarnation? I am inclined to think it is a thing because there are documented cases of people having memories of living earlier lives as totally different people, to the point of detail that would be difficult to explain rationally. But is that proof of actually having lived that earlier life, or simply proof of some kind of psychic connection with the earlier person?


Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> Coincidences, to me, are not really coincidences; that is, I believe they are built into the structure of the universe. There are tons of instances of mathematical beauty and symmetry and such in nature, and I think that coincidences are a sort of poetry built into the universe. Things (specific phrases, concepts, etc.) have a way of suddenly coming up in spates, and you can argue it's just noticing it but I don't buy that, too many times I've seen a word or phrase for the first time, suddenly encounter it several more times during a day, and then it goes away. Now, like I said, I don't consider these as having any significance in a schizo way, but I think they exist in a sense like nature rhymes with itself?
> 
> Lastly, I do believe demons exist. It's worth explaining, I think you can have non-material phenomena that interacts with the world through material means - I think it's the only real way you can explain the Hard Problem of Consciousness - and so, just because you can explain a certain phenomena as the action of certain parts of the brain or certain hormones, that doesn't mean that you can't also ascribe phenomena to spirits too. Night hags are a good example of that, you can 100% explain night hags through science, but to me that doesn't mean the night hag doesn't actually exist. Other sorts of demons would be whatever things spread evil thoughts in people, like the self-harming impulse, the other-harming impulse, evil ideologies. I also think, based on the example of superorganisms, that consciousness can exist at lower and higher levels of organization than we think of. A colony of ants are all individual creatures, clearly, following their own internal programming, yet they cooperate to act as a single units. So do the cells of a human body. Why should it not be that there could be some level of consciousness for the individual cells of the body, and similarly consciousness emerging at group levels like nations? (If you prefer, you can think of that as being like a China brain, but I think my idea's a bit different.) So I think there are potentially lots of conscious entities that are not animals as we think of them, which you can call paranormal if you want.


Not much to add here but all these points make sense to me and raise interesting further arguments.



Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> Don't really have any personal paranormal stories. My Pa had a ghost visitation from his best friend who died in Vietnam, but he also says he was drinking at the time and so he doesn't have a strong opinion on if the visitation was his imagination or real. He also had a relative who, in an episode of sleep paralysis, saw the night hag loom over his roommate, and the roommate died the next day, like a reaper.



If you don't mind me powerleveling and schizoposting for a second- I find your points about sleep paralysis and your earlier points about "demons" very compelling, as I have experienced sleep paralysis twice, both times in my late teens.  and both times the entity radiated energy that absolutely felt evil and "demonic" for lack of a better word. Appearance wise they were unremarkable, one was a totally average woman dressed in normal clothes that would have fit in anywhere, and the other was a shadow figure with elongated limbs. The aura of both was absolutely evil though, it was immediately obvious in a way I cannot explain or put into words logically.

If we're swapping stories now, one reason I have an interest in the paranormal is that my grandparent's old house had a ghost in it that they and their children saw for years, until the ghost suddenly stopped appearing. Always the same man dressed in a brown suit with a hat. It was to the point that nobody wanted to go to the bathroom alone at night, as the ghost would always appear in the room across from the bathroom, sitting in the same chair. It's one of those weird things in my family that everyone agrees happened, but is simultaneously rarely mentioned because no one can explain or prove it. My mother was rather vague on this last point, but she said that wasn't the only ghost and that when she was young there were "scary" ghosts, but she thought the suit ghost kept those away later on. She was very vague on this part and didn't want to elaborate so I didn't ask further.

I know it sounds weird and obviously I can't prove it but that story what first got me interested in the paranormal,

Not sure if this is "paranormal" per se, but on the opposite side of the family when my Dad's grandmother passed, several of her children had identical dreams of her on the same night, a few days after she died. Not sure if that was an actual "visit" or simply an example of what you described earlier about mental connections between close individuals.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 5, 2022)

@Certified_Autist

Sometimes glitches won't let me reply directly, so going piecewise:



Spoiler: Basic worldview, to set basics



So this is my shitty philosophy (I've never studied former philosophy/epistemology/metaphysics/etc.):

To me "qualia," consciousness, and the soul are all equivalent things, I could not care less about any concept of consciousness or soul outside of subjective experience and see no real difference. I think that the Hard Problem of Consciousness is actually a hard problem - there is no way to create a materialist explanation for subjective experience, in my opinion - so I believe that based on that my own soul has to exist as an entity in itself. Since other people exist who are not substantially different from me, by extension it seems most reasonable to assume other people have souls too (lol) and then since life is a continuum of things very similar to humans down to things very different, I think it's reasonable to assume all other life has souls (experiences qualia) on some level. It doesn't have to be that qualia emerges from reproduction, but I think that's the most reasonable assumption, since life comes from reproduction and each living entity presumably has its own qualia. This would imply that there had to be an original qualia-experiencing entity, which can then be conceived of as equivalent to God (both the sum of all subjective experience and the source of it).

As I understand, this is loosely like Hegel's absolute idealism.





> Yes, the concept you are referring to is a real thing and was proven in the "double slit experiment" where particle behavior was dramatically altered simply by whether it was being observed. Its a very well known experiment in the physics field because it has been replicated many times over by many different scientists, with the same results every time.
> 
> Conventional physics is mostly stumped by it, and many consider it a random oddity. But I see it as possibly indirect evidence of a Creator, and as definite proof that humans are the center of the universe. If we really are just an "accident of evolution", then why does the Universe only function when we observe it?
> 
> It also raises interesting questions regarding the world being mind-over-matter but that's a whole other discussion.


Has anybody ever been able to do this experiment with animals, to see if non-human observation can trigger particle behavior?Building off your points on psychic "connections" between individuals, what is your view on reincarnation? I am inclined to think it is a thing because there are documented cases of people having memories of living earlier lives as totally different people, to the point of detail that would be difficult to explain rationally. But is that proof of actually having lived that earlier life, or simply proof of some kind of psychic connection with the earlier person?


> Building off your points on psychic "connections" between individuals, what is your view on reincarnation? I am inclined to think it is a thing because there are documented cases of people having memories of living earlier lives as totally different people, to the point of detail that would be difficult to explain rationally. But is that proof of actually having lived that earlier life, or simply proof of some kind of psychic connection with the earlier person?


I hope it doesn't exist. I think the idea of reincarnation is horrifying, because if we reincarnate that means we lose our memories too, which makes on some level the cycle of life meaningless (can't take it with you) and the individual life meaningless. (I'd rather have a life which while completely average has a significant internal narrative than have a shot at having been Genghis Khan a thousand years ago.) I don't see any basis for assuming it does happen or does not. I'd question why it would exist, since the population expands; clearly even if reincarnation occurs, there is not some fixed quantity of souls. But I can't disprove it and I'm not familiar with the subject matter.

As an alternative, perhaps some of those memories, if we do go into psychic phenomena, are just like somebody "tapping into" someone else's memories without it necessarily being their own memories?



> If you don't mind me powerleveling and schizoposting for a second- I find your points about sleep paralysis and your earlier points about "demons" very compelling, as I have experienced sleep paralysis twice, both times in my late teens. and both times the entity radiated energy that absolutely felt evil and "demonic" for lack of a better word. Appearance wise they were unremarkable, one was a totally average woman dressed in normal clothes that would have fit in anywhere, and the other was a shadow figure with elongated limbs. The aura of both was absolutely evil though, it was immediately obvious in a way I cannot explain or put into words logically.
> 
> If we're swapping stories now, one reason I have an interest in the paranormal is that my grandparent's old house had a ghost in it that they and their children saw for years, until the ghost suddenly stopped appearing. Always the same man dressed in a brown suit with a hat. It was to the point that nobody wanted to go to the bathroom alone at night, as the ghost would always appear in the room across from the bathroom, sitting in the same chair. It's one of those weird things in my family that everyone agrees happened, but is simultaneously rarely mentioned because no one can explain or prove it. My mother was rather vague on this last point, but she said that wasn't the only ghost and that when she was young there were "scary" ghosts, but she thought the suit ghost kept those away later on. She was very vague on this part and didn't want to elaborate so I didn't ask further.
> 
> ...


Do you have any thoughts on why ghosts are scary, or what they are?

It seems odd that they should be inherently scary, aside from stories people have of benevolent ghosts (usually messengers) that even then tend to be creepy. I know Orientals tended to view ghosts as scary because the existence of the dead in the land of the living is the world being out of order. I feel like if ghosts are real, they're not the actual souls of the dead but are instead some sort of degraded creature created out of their death.

Your story of identical dreams could, in my thinking, be a visitation or an entangling of the minds. Either is a sensible explanation.

The only thing close to a ghost or demon I ever saw was the glowing figure of a man in a red shirt and blue jeans passing through the woods next to a cemetery that bordered my yard. It was very vague of a figure and very fuzzy, and I think it could have been motorcycle lights or just my imagination, it didn't seem frightening and I never saw it again.


I'm going to start calling any theoretical qualia-experiencing entity that lacks a physical body a "spirit," just to be clear.


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## Fek (Jun 5, 2022)

Certified_Autist said:


> Conventional physics is mostly stumped by it, and many consider it a random oddity. But I see it as possibly indirect evidence of a Creator, and as definite proof that humans are the center of the universe. If we really are just an "accident of evolution", then why does the Universe only function when we observe it?





Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> doesn't quantum entanglement have a thing going on where just "observing" a particle, in a literal sense, causes it to resolve into a state? There's an implication there that the act of perception, separate from material causes, can change the material world.


Quantum physics is the closest we're getting towards looping right back around into the territory of the spiritual. I personally find it hilarious to see these experiments take place, get repeated and verified ad infinitum, and watch your typical SCIENCE!™ followers try to square that circle with their semi/totally-atheistic world view. Very popcorn worthy.


Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> Specific forms of paranormal activity I am interested in include psychic connections between individuals, coincidences, and demons.


Sounds like you two are good candidates for reading through or listening to The Seth Books**, imo. I cannot possibly recommend them enough if you're of the sorts of minds you're both exhibiting here. It might need to be taken a bit on faith at first given the..how to put it.."level" of the material? You'd ultimately be _very_ hard-pressed to explain away the content via things like hallucination or schizophrenia.

Frankly, this is probably the single best thread to link that book series.

**They're in the order they should be read/listened to.


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## Begemot (Jun 5, 2022)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> I have a theory on the paranormal. There is this assumption, a dogma, that because nobody has provided really good proof of things like ghosts or God or whatever other paranormal entity/phenomena, that means it doesn't exist. That kind of assumes that paranormal subjects follow the same materialistic rules as everything else, though, like being repeatable or detectable through experimentation. I don't know hardly anything about quantum physics, so forgive me if I get this completely wrong, but doesn't quantum entanglement have a thing going on where just "observing" a particle, in a literal sense, causes it to resolve into a state? There's an implication there that the act of perception, separate from material causes, can change the material world.
> 
> I think paranormal phenomena, if it exists (and consider me sort of optimistically agnostic on it), is by its very nature something that attempting to recreate it will cause it to disappear.
> 
> ...


I think you'd find some of John Keel's work like the eighth tower a similar kind of worldview in this regard.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 5, 2022)

By the way, since I was getting into the soul:

I don't think it makes much sense to imagine nonexistence, it's something I've grappled with and I feel like I experienced the equivalent of death under general anesthesia, but even then the absence of time (it felt like an instantaneous skip in time, in contrast to sleep which does feel like time elapsed) still made sense only in the comparison of moving from one state to another. So it felt like nonexistence wasn't frightening, but I don't know that the absence of something can exist separately from it existing, right?

So my thinking is that souls must have some sort of continuity across all time, can be created from something in the sense of cleft from it, but cannot be created ex nihilio or destroyed, though I don't see as they couldn't merge (which is a scary thought). So in that sense, I think that before you were conceived "you" were your parents and that goes on back to the original soul. In some sense that's like reincarnation @Certified_Autist asked about, but it doesn't involve the death of the parents; it's more like cutting earthworms in half and each earthworm being a new creature.


I suppose that the idea of coincidences, if nature "rhymes" with itself, would have some similarity to this and could also be thought of as some basis for a theory of prophecy.





Somebody posted a Terry Davis thing the other day where he had a string of random output like "Putin China election virus," but also mixed with absolute worthless babble about Star Wars. Voice of God? lolno But maybe nature, on occasion, will put a string of random thought into a person's head as a long-term rhyme with real events happening. Thus, a prophet/psychic.

This guy is also who I got the idea of feeling someone's gaze as a form of psychic phenomena from now. The materialist explanation is that you're subconsciously picking up movements behind you.


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## Fek (Jun 5, 2022)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> So my thinking is that souls must have some sort of continuity across all time


Very much this, yes. You're here to learn and love. To develop within and without. "Death" of the physical is just moving onto another incarnation whether here or otherwise.


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## PittyKitty (Jun 6, 2022)

Fek said:


> Very much this, yes. You're here to learn and love. To develop within and without. "Death" of the physical is just moving onto another incarnation whether here or otherwise.


Do you think its possible for a soul to decay in a way of following the law of atrophy? 

Like with the theory of limited souls (more and more people being born) ? Would the soul be fractured (atrophied) to be spread out evenly across everyone, so everyone just got a small fracture of a whole, or would some just be born literally soulless, either as proper madmen or NPCs? 

Not sure if this fits here or conspiracy theory thread. 

_This is much more fun than working on a Monday morning_.


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## Dom Cruise (Jun 7, 2022)

@Certified_Autist 


> If we're swapping stories now, one reason I have an interest in the paranormal is that my grandparent's old house had a ghost in it that they and their children saw for years, until the ghost suddenly stopped appearing. Always the same man dressed in a brown suit with a hat. It was to the point that nobody wanted to go to the bathroom alone at night, as the ghost would always appear in the room across from the bathroom, sitting in the same chair.


See, if I encountered paranormal phenomena that replicable I'd find that cool, I'd try to communicate with him, say "hey, buddy, what's up? What's your deal?" 





Fek said:


> Quantum physics is the closest we're getting towards looping right back around into the territory of the spiritual. I personally find it hilarious to see these experiments take place, get repeated and verified ad infinitum, and watch your typical SCIENCE!™ followers try to square that circle with their semi/totally-atheistic world view. Very popcorn worthy.


I think that's already proof that the paranormal/spiritual is real, it doesn't make sense to say otherwise when we can already observe phenomena that doesn't follow typical Newtonian physics.

The fact that science and people in general are still just kind of dismissive says it all.


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## PaleTay (Jun 12, 2022)

I've also worked overnight in healthcare settings, some like care homes have a lot of death, most of my co-workers at multiple locations have called haunted. There was this one detached essentially activity center which just seemed wrong, not all the time but sometimes I would get an overwhelming feeling that I shouldn't be in there. I've had the cleaning staff come get me because they were supposed to be in there alone and heard crashing or a toilet flushing and we could never find anything. The building was armed so no one should have been able to get in or out without a key card.

Another time I was in a recently deceased resident's room getting some of their stuff, there was this strong pelting of cold air and knocking which seemed to permeate the room coming from the hallway and blew my papers off the counter. No real logical explanation for it.

I've had elderly residents say they see dead people somewhat often.

I have ridiculous peripheral vision, sometimes I see movement out of the corner of my eyes but nothing is there which is unusual for me. There's a few I can rationalize by saying someone might have briefly shone their headlights at the right angle from outside for me to notice something but mostly no logical explanation.


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## Foghorns at a Funeral (Jun 13, 2022)

I mostly see it as entertainment. Ghosts as we know them are based on story's. I have never seen one and most videos are potato cam so much that it is more likely to be a video glitch and some part of that mental effect where we see faces as long as there is 3 points of reference, that and some obvious hoax's. I enjoy the concept of ghost story's.  A place unknowable to us such as after death is quite a subject to think about. But the reality comes crashing in to ruin it. If we were to accept that ghost exist, where are they all? There are country's that had people on it since the Celts. If the requirement to become a ghost is unfinished business, and tragic deaths. There should be millions of ghosts walking around the UK for instance. All the battles, all the death the land has seen. The UK of course is not alone. Half of the north of France should be ghosts reenacting WW1 or 2. Considering the amount of unwilling death those wars caused. Most of the folklore behind ghosts is tragic story's of betrayal, murder and grief. Nothing more tragic than mass death in war.
But i am not the sort of person to go reddit fedora on people about it, the world is great when people have different things to believe in.  I am also a sucker for a good ghost story.
What i want to ask is why ghosts, especially of the Victorian era. Seem to spend their days, standing in the corners of the room shaking their heads back and forth rapidly as seen on ghost shows.


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## Osmosis Jones (Jun 16, 2022)

I've never been sure about ghosts or spirits. I do believe in the "echo of a memory" theory, and that spirits aren't necessarily cognitive beings with their own free will like the living, but projections of something that once was and nothing more. I haven't personally experienced ghosts or spirits, only heard a few credible stories from people I knew. 

I think precognition is a real phenomenon. I've also experienced a lost time event. I like to think that there are other dimensions layered on top of ours and that we get a glimpse of that sometimes and part of that is the projection of spirits and "glitches in the matrix".


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## Dysnomia (Jun 16, 2022)

How come no one ever asks ghosts the hard questions? It's always something boring. Give me some secrets of the universe.


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## Osmosis Jones (Jun 16, 2022)

Dysnomia said:


> How come no one ever asks ghosts the hard questions? It's always something boring. Give me some secrets of the universe.


Oh man, you'd love this. I'll edit this post when I get home if someone doesn't post it first but some of the very first ever EVP recordings were full blown conversations with spirits; conversing, interviewing, and even joking with spirits of the dead in situ, instead of modern EVP where you have to speak and listen back later on.

Eta:
I'm on the right track but I cannot for the life of me find what I'm talking about. It was a tangential point in a podcast that has over 150 episodes and they inserted part of the recording. Now I can't find fuck all about it. I believe the experiment I'm referring to is that of Friedrich Jurgenson, who used traditional record-playback style EVP until a spirit told him to use the radio. Apparently 1485KHz is the best frequency to communicate with the dead.

Here's a rare recording from an incredibly difficult to obtain record on his work:


Spoiler: EXTREME EAR RAPE WARNING






Spoiler: FOR REAL. TURN YOUR VOLUME TO 1.













Enjoy that for now, I'll keep looking for the specific
 clip.

Reference material
Having real trouble finding it. The issue with these people is they made thousands upon thousands of recordings and very few have been sporadically archived for the purpose of discussion. Most of the time these names are brought up to try and disprove EVP instead of discussing their work. Thomas Edison, Konstantin Raudive, and Friedrich Jurgenson are the big names in the development and furthering of EVP recording and communication with the deceased. Notably, Edison believed life was like energy in that it cannot be created or destroyed. 



> Edison believed that life was indestructible, and that the “quantity could never be increased or decreased.” He theorized that like our bodies, our personalities have a physical form, made of tiny “entities” similar to our current view of atoms. He thought these entities might exist after humans passed away—a personality-based residue of loose memories and thoughts, containing part of who a person was during life.


Source


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## SCSI (Jun 17, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> Edison believed that life was indestructible, and that the “quantity could never be increased or decreased.” He theorized that like our bodies, our personalities have a physical form, made of tiny “entities” similar to our current view of atoms. He thought these entities might exist after humans passed away—a personality-based residue of loose memories and thoughts, containing part of who a person was during life.



Sounds reminiscent of the Buddhist concept of the alaya-vijnana.



> The store-house consciousness receives impressions from all functions of the other consciousnesses, and retains them as potential energy, _bīja_ or "seeds", for their further manifestations and activities. Since it serves as the container for all experiential impressions it is also called the "seed consciousness" (種子識) or *container consciousness*.


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## Quiet Guy (Jun 18, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I've also experienced a lost time event. I like to think that there are other dimensions layered on top of ours and that we get a glimpse of that sometimes and part of that is the projection of spirits and "glitches in the matrix".


Would you be willing to share your experience? I am interested in the possibility of travel between universes, and I have some scientific theories regarding "spiritual things."


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## Osmosis Jones (Jun 18, 2022)

Quiet Guy said:


> Would you be willing to share your experience? I am interested in the possibility of travel between universes, and I have some scientific theories regarding "spiritual things."


Sure, it's not really a powerlevel so I don't see the harm. 

At about 8:05PM on a summer night, I was driving with a girl I liked. We used to go for drives every weekend, and nothing ever happened other than finding creepy streets before this event. We were travelling Eastbound on a road on the south side of an industrial complex that I'm familiar with. The complex is about 1KM x 1KM in perimeter. After you pass the industrial complex, it's a quiet barely lit 4 lane road.  While driving, we were shooting the shit and singing songs, and I noticed that we didn't seem to be heading where we were before. I glance at the clock on the dashboard and it says 8:39PM. _Funny, we're having such a good time I didn't notice the time._ But then I thought about how I just checked the time and it didn't feel anything like 30 minutes had passed.

I slowed my driving a bit and tried to get my bearings. I could see the glow of commercial lights up ahead and as we pass them, I realise it's the same industrial complex we had just passed around 8:05PM. I was now on the north side of the park travelling westbound. I hadn't turned, didn't fall asleep, approximately 35 minutes had passed, and we were 1KM north of where we just were and facing the opposite direction. My friend corroborated my confusion. We mostly laughed it off, half-jokingly checking for weird scars or marks (there were none). 

To this day, I have no rational explanation for it. It's relatively tame given what others experience with days of lost time and ET being involved, but I know it happened and I can't figure out why. Maybe a tear in reality, maybe a glitch in the system, maybe my memory had intentionally been meddled with, maybe my brain made the whole thing up for me.


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## The Repeated Meme (Jun 18, 2022)

BOO I'M A GHOST

No. Interesting in theory I guess but it's all a bunch of nonsense in the real world.


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## Flan Handler (Jun 19, 2022)

I haven’t had anything paranormal happen to me, but I will share my dad’s story. He’s only told it to me one time.

It happened when he was in his mid twenties, married with 3 kids. Very ordinary for the time, just working and raising his family.

He had my little brother (age 2 or 3) and they were just doing errands like going to the dump and hardware store. We lived an hour outside of the city so when the radio played we just ignored traffic updates since they were never relevant. 

On this day, the radio station had a traffic update about an accident on a main bridge that was stopping traffic. Very ordinary. Except his brain started focusing on it, and it started kind of echoing in his mind, even after the announcer moved on to other things. Dad explained it as he could hear the message kind of repeating itself louder and louder in his mind. This meant nothing to him so he just tried to shake it off and drove home.

At the house he was feeling off, so he just sat on the couch with my brother when his best friend suddenly appeared in front of him. Dad says his friend Jim just blinked into view, and he could hear that traffic report in his head again. 

Unbeknownst to my dad, Jim had had a heart attack while driving in the city and had caused the accident in the traffic update, and had died. 

My dad just looked at him and said “Was that you?”. Jim said to him, “I don’t have much time. I need you to go be with Dee (his wife) and the kids right now. She can’t be alone when she hears about this.”

Dad asked him “What is this all about?” Referring to the meaning of life. Jim gave him an answer, thanked my dad, and disappeared.

Dad was feeling dazed but he got in his truck and drove the 5 miles to Dee’s house with my brother. Dee opened the door and just looked at my dad. She invited him in for coffee, and started toward the kitchen, but she must have sensed something was off. She turned and stared into his eyes for 10 seconds but didn’t say anything. My brother ran to play with Jim and Dee’s kids. 

Dad and Dee sat at the kitchen table silently, staring at one another and not drinking their coffee. The doorbell rang. Dee just said, “Flan Sr, what is happening?” But my dad didn’t know what to say so he gestured to the door.

Two police officers were at the door to tell her her husband had died. Dee spun around and looked at my dad and hissed “Did you know about this?!”. Dad nodded. She broke down and ran to her bedroom.

The two cops had seen this. An old cop and a young cop. The young cop obviously had questions about how Dad could know, since there were no cell phones at that time and Jim’s name had not been on the news. 

He started asking cop questions and being suspicious but the old cop stopped him and just asked Dad to explain. Dad was very confused but told them what happened. The young cop was kind of a dick but the old cop said he had seen stuff like this happen over the years. 

This had a profound effect on my dad and he was not the same after. I have no idea what it means but he doesn’t have any other stories like this and he’s normally a very grounded person.


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## b0o0pinsn0o0tz (Jun 19, 2022)

Russian Bot said:


> I've seen some shit, but
> 
> View attachment 3329777
> 
> ...


I'm right there with you. An incident happened with some friends a little after high school that I still can't logically explain but people will think I'm crazy or something if I go into it.. There are fuck ton of hoaxes that understandably make it impossible for a lot of people to take this stuff seriously.

Edit - A second reason I don't want to get into it is because it involves a regional area infamous for people stumbling into the supernatural and that would be over sharing.


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## Fek (Jun 19, 2022)

Flan Handler said:


> Dad asked him “What is this all about?” Referring to the meaning of life. Jim gave him an answer, thanked my dad, and disappeared.


Did your dad tell you his answer? Inquiring minds wish to know.


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## Flan Handler (Jun 20, 2022)

Fek said:


> Did your dad tell you his answer? Inquiring minds wish to know.


He did tell me. I don’t know what to think about it so I will tell you a bit about Jim to put it in context.

Jim was a career military man. He and my dad met by accident and became very good friends, dad could never figure out why but they just got along great. We lived in their house for a couple of years while Jim was posted overseas, and my siblings and I played with their kids all the time.

He was a real hardass, not a particularly spiritual person, and it turns out he wasn’t very good to his family, but we didn’t know that at the time. No one really understood how he and my dad (a 20-something farm boy with an ordinary family) had anything in common, but they really liked and understood each other. I loved his kids but was a bit scared of him.

Dad says that when he appeared he was illuminated from inside somehow, and got brighter as the encounter went on.  In life he was very serious, but at that moment he was so happy, almost jovial.

Jim basically said: I just didn’t know. This life is all about love. It was supposed to be like this, I can’t see the whole plan, but we are all here to learn. Flan Sr, you are going to be okay. 

Dads not sure how much of this was verbal, and he says there was more communicated that he doesn’t know how to put into words. It sounds like a positive experience but it actually unmoored him a bit, and changed him as a person. Do we make any meaningful choices? Whose plan is it? Why him, and not Jim’s wife directly? 

Finding out later that Jim was probably not a good person made it even more ambiguous. 

If dad had a history of this kind of thing I might not put much weight in it, but happened one time, was validated by Dee and the cops, and really didn’t lead to some further insights. Just a weird thing.


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## Mothra1988 (Jun 20, 2022)

Flan Handler said:


> I haven’t had anything paranormal happen to me, but I will share my dad’s story. He’s only told it to me one time.
> 
> It happened when he was in his mid twenties, married with 3 kids. Very ordinary for the time, just working and raising his family.
> 
> ...


This is a normal interaction between spirit and loved one.  However, in most cases, it will happen in your sleep after the death.  It's much easier to communicate that way.  It takes a lot more energy to do it during waking hours, which was probably done because his concern about his family was imminent.


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## FatalTater (Jun 20, 2022)

Flan Handler said:


> Finding out later that Jim was probably not a good person made it even more ambiguous.


Not good to his family, but he wanted his buddy to be there for the wife and kids when the news of his death was given.

Maybe he did learn something after all.


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## Fek (Jun 20, 2022)

First of all: thank you very, very much for sharing. This further confirms what I have researched at great lengths elsewhere.

Secondly, I'm going to breeze over some very esoteric-yet-true-as-far-as-I've-been-able-to-surmise material in spots. If you have questions after the fact, I'll try to answer them as best I can.


Flan Handler said:


> He and my dad met by accident and became very good friends, dad could never figure out why but they just got along great.


More than likely, the answer is that they simply knew each other in another life. I know how that sounds. Probably not the place to go on a rant about it, though.


Flan Handler said:


> Jim basically said: I just didn’t know. This life is all about love. It was supposed to be like this, I can’t see the whole plan, but we are all here to learn. Flan Sr, you are going to be okay.


Yes, this is effectively what anyone who is beyond our existence will say. It is all about love. It's about loving and learning. We're in a playpen of sorts figuring out who we really are so we can be trusted to move beyond this point. Gives life a whole new meaning, if you think about it.


Flan Handler said:


> Dads not sure how much of this was verbal, and he says there was more communicated that he doesn’t know how to put into words. It sounds like a positive experience but it actually unmoored him a bit, and changed him as a person. Do we make any meaningful choices?


Probably psychic/telepathic communication.

And we do make meaningful choices, yes. The short, short version: we all have free will within the ruleset of this existence (you can't go jump off a building and fly just because you think you're one with the universe, for example).


Flan Handler said:


> Whose plan is it? Why him, and not Jim’s wife directly?


Plan for..what? Your own life? It's yours, and you planned out the major highlights in between lives, so to speak. Did you have a defining moment in your life that you'll never forget? You probably planned it out "ahead of time", believe it or not. A great deal of our lives ride on probability, but there are always some major moments that we chose to experience for the sake of personal growth. 

As far as why he came to your father instead of his wife? To help explain the concept quickly, let's try this: Imagine for a moment that your soul is, in fact, eternal. Imagine that you live multiple lives. If you had a friend who you knew throughout two of those lives (now into your third), yet only met your wife in your current life..which person would probably hold more meaning to you? Might sound kind of fucked up, but it's actually a thing according to what I've researched.

Perhaps this won't be _quite _so hard to humor for those of you who have had a brush with the paranormal.


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## Flan Handler (Jun 20, 2022)

Fek said:


> More than likely, the answer is that they simply knew each other in another life. I know how that sounds. Probably not the place to go on a rant about it, though.



The idea that Dad and Jim knew each other from somewhere else is a reasonable explanation for why they were immediately best friends. Their meeting seems like a weird synchronicity, they had a twenty year age gap, and complete lack of common experience. And yet they understood each other completely.

Thanks for listening, it’s not really something I talk about usually.


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## TinCan Wizard (Jun 20, 2022)

Flan Handler said:


> Dad says that when he appeared he was illuminated from inside somehow, and got brighter as the encounter went on.  In life he was very serious, but at that moment he was so happy, almost jovial.


I won't get into details but this happened with me too. It happened in my sleep but it felt very real, unlike any dream I had including sleep paralysis. And so many others experience it. idk what to believe but that shook my worldview to say the least.


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## Fek (Jun 21, 2022)

TinCan Wizard said:


> I won't get into details but this happened with me too. It happened in my sleep but it felt very real, unlike any dream I had including sleep paralysis. And so many others experience it. idk what to believe but that shook my worldview to say the least.


How "real" would you say it felt? Like a waking experience? Perhaps "more real than real," even?

Edit: _If_ that's not considered "getting into details," I suppose. Don't mind my eagerness completely ignoring your first statement.


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## BiggerChungus (Jun 21, 2022)

Theist here, I believe the spiritual and demonic exist, and these things physically manifest in the world, or within peoples' minds. 99% of "ghost" stories/videos are most likely fake though.


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## Mothra1988 (Jun 21, 2022)

TinCan Wizard said:


> I won't get into details but this happened with me too. It happened in my sleep but it felt very real, unlike any dream I had including sleep paralysis. And so many others experience it. idk what to believe but that shook my worldview to say the least.





Fek said:


> How "real" would you say it felt? Like a waking experience? Perhaps "more real than real," even?



Usually when I have a communication dream, I immediately wake up staring at a spot in my room almost like I was awake the whole time.  When you have one, you'll know it for sure.  The stark difference makes it extremely obvious.  Human souls can use this method and even pets.  Like let's say your dead dog comes to you in this kind of dream.  You end up petting it and then you wake up staring at the spot you were petting it on the side of your bed with your dog now gone due to you being fully awake now.  That's how a normal communication dream usually operates.

Negative spirits also sometimes use the space between awake and sleep to harass you, usually doing something to scare you so you jolt out of sleep such as making loud sounds in your room or touching you.  I think it may have something to do with how the human brain operates in different levels of sleep.  It's working at faster speeds and this speed makes you more "open" to communication, something that usually only mediums have complete access to during waking hours.  Changes in the brain can also change your level of openness which is why children seem more psychic but it dissipates into adulthood.  I've also known one person who tapped into some psychic ability after having a head injury.  So yeah, the brain definitely plays a role here.


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## Fek (Jun 24, 2022)

Alright, I found a Ouija Board straight out of the..70s-ish?

Edit: This style.



What should I ask it, dudes?


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## Archeops (Jun 24, 2022)

I don’t really have a lot of experience with the paranormal outside of occasionally having precognitive dreams and a few stories I may post later, but here are my general thoughts…


Spoiler: The Paranormal



I believe that there is a part of our universe that we can’t really explain with our current understanding of it. As far as ghosts are concerned there‘s definitely a part of us that lingers after we die but it varies from individual due to their own spiritual beliefs, their experiences during life, how their spirit is balanced, and how they died. I do believe that there are non-human entities (angels, demons, elementals, aliens, cryptids, etc.) in our universe and that they can occupy one or more of the “realms” that make up our universe/dimension and others that may be connected to it but I’m not sure if using these terms is correct or not.





Spoiler: Paranormal Programming/Shows



I believe that a _lot _of these shows are simply done for entertainment purposes. There are some that try to explain some the events shown in ‘em and get some sort of proof (_Ghost Adventures_ being a prime example of this) but they often do so via provocation, something that you should _never _do if you want to experience the spiritual world unless you’re prepared to deal with the consequences of provoking the wrong entities.

The one program I’ve seen that _doesn’t _do this and actually tries to help people affected by the paranormal is _The Dead Files_, that one only has a psychic medium do simple spirit walk around the affected property and having sketches done of what they believe to be affecting the property and individuals the most and what is the most dangerous spiritual entities there, a retired detective interviewing the affected individuals and doing some digging on the affected property and the history of it and the surrounding area, and caps out the episode with both sides sharing their findings and suggestions on what to do to alleviate said issues.





Fek said:


> Alright, I found a Ouija Board straight out of the..70s-ish?
> 
> Edit: This style.
> View attachment 3423836
> ...


Ask it about the Zozo demon. Protip: Do NOT ask it about the Zozo demon.


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## LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV] (Jun 25, 2022)

I don't like materialism, our idea of reality is bullshit  and i know, without a doubt,  there's way more  we can't ever measure or comprehend, the scientific method is very useful but is not the be all end all.

Actual experiences are very difficult to convey to anyone , i wouldn't even be bothering, you'll always come across as dumb or crazy. I think popular culture and hollywood have spoiled  the broth too so to say, is like with the mafia, a lot of people see mobsters as cartoon characters and movie villains because thats their exposure, even though the mafia is as a matter of fact very real theres a distance people have were its difficult to fully internalize it as anything other than what they know, as fiction, a meme, with the paranormal is even more nebulous, even thouth it has accompany us for all our existence modern people are more likely to see it all with that same distance.  Not sure i get my point across

 i don't think none of us can ever comprehend something thats so beyond us and translate it in such simplistic terms like religious people do, we probably have no bussiness anyway, whatever reality truly is beyond matter avoids all kinds of dogma.  most we can do is keep a balance between open mind and skepticism. 

I also like the theory that aliens and elves are the same thing. I love passport to magonia and daemonic reality, i like a lot of Jung's weird ideas too,  my line of thinking tends to go in that direction.


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## skykiii (Jun 25, 2022)

I've had weird events but most of them are of the "saw something out of the corner of my eye" type, that could've been anything.

I definitely think there's weird stuff out there.  But I hate how the media tries to simplify it all into baby-language cartoonishness.  Like for example I've always hated any UFO show that says the government is scheming with aliens--at that point the aliens are just an evil supervillain group, but clearly they're much more than that (if you believe they exist).  Also why would they make deals with us anyway?

I also find a lot of paranormal "debunks" don't really work as they tend to rely on equally childish comic book logic.  (I'm speaking in general terms here... debunking a SPECIFIC video or event usually works out).

Also, I hate how the skeptic side worships James Randi, even though the man is proven to lie for his own purposes and a lot of the arguments he uses would not be accepted if they came from a believer.


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## Xanen (Jun 25, 2022)

Mother's side leans more into spiritual shit. Mom's had a few seemingly prophetic dreams, we've both seen freaky shit. I think the worst experience I had was the second house I lived in after moving to the U.S, lots of feeling grabbed or touched when nobody was there, and I vividly remember the image of a scowling, flayed man hovering over me one night whilst I tried to sleep. Granted this was prior to me starting my meds, chances are it was anxiety/paranoia fueling hallucinations.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jul 10, 2022)

Some of you were mentioning people getting along with each other real conveniently, I've thought at times people might have a pull on each other. A pastor of a church I went to described a thing he called "deep calling out to deep," basically a notion that people will tend to be attracted towards people who are similar to them, but not in the sense that they get along well but in the sense that they will be attracted to the person before they could possibly know anything about them TO attract them. Could also say that it's just social skills - if you're not a sperg you'll find commonalities with the people you meet.

I can't say if this is a real thing, because I haven't seen that many cases of it, but I feel like it might be. The soul feels out the souls nearby, decides it likes something and then steers the body/conscious mind towards them.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Aug 8, 2022)

Fek said:


> Quantum physics is the closest we're getting towards looping right back around into the territory of the spiritual. I personally find it hilarious to see these experiments take place, get repeated and verified ad infinitum, and watch your typical SCIENCE!™ followers try to square that circle with their semi/totally-atheistic world view. Very popcorn worthy.
> 
> Sounds like you two are good candidates for reading through or listening to The Seth Books**, imo. I cannot possibly recommend them enough if you're of the sorts of minds you're both exhibiting here. It might need to be taken a bit on faith at first given the..how to put it.."level" of the material? You'd ultimately be _very_ hard-pressed to explain away the content via things like hallucination or schizophrenia.
> 
> ...


I did get around to reading Seth Speaks on your recommendation, and was sitting on reviewing it in part to not want to slag it off. There are parts of the book that are interesting and parts that are fun just as an exercise in creativity. Bits of it that speak to me. On the whole I would say that while my worldview is open to the possibility of the supernatural, even supposes it, I don't believe in any particular real world example of it. I don't put truck in people like psychics, basically. The author ultimately feels like an L. Ron Hubbard to me, in the obvious comparison of sci-fi writer playing with religious concepts. Much of the book focuses on the idea (what feels like wishful thinking) that, if we exist in an absolute idealist world, then the world can be constructed in any way you want, which I think is true in some sense but I'd not actually stake anything on trying that. Then there's the outlandish ancient history stuff in there, and some thoughts on the afterlife and what not that I don't agree with but found enjoyable to read. I didn't really see much in it that I saw as being other than a con. I appreciate you taking the time to recommend it, though, it is nice when a stranger takes time to do that.



There was a Brain Dump episode where Max G talked about some pseudoscience theory that if you hold a belief strongly, the universe will change to make it true because it cannot abide contradictions in perception and reality.

I'm not real into Mandela Effect, but maybe in an idealist world some incidences of unjustified mass delusion like that could be something where as a misperception becomes more common it starts to emerge autonomously in more people as the delusion tries to establish itself?


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## FoolhardStar (Aug 17, 2022)

My mom, who's not really the type to believe in paranormal-presented stuff at face value, swears up and down that my great-grandpa visited her the day after his death.
She was in her mid-20s or just hitting 30, mulling about the house while trying to process the grief. And then she felt him, right there in the room with her. She described it as "feeling like you're being watched, but in a less freaky way."
The feeling of him being there was gone a few minutes later, like he just rolled up to check on her. She's believed that ghosts and the afterlife exist in some form ever since, and is also a firm believer in reincarnation. Again, she's not really gullible or a hippy-dippy type of person, so I feel like the experience served as proof to her.

As for personal experience, I can't really attest to seeing a ghost right in front of me while awake. Shit made to sell off clickbait and get cash from gullible retards like Ghost Adventures soured me on the idea of ghosts or being visited like that, until something happened fairly recently:



Spoiler: Personal experience



Usually, my dreams are weird and surreal. They're more like TV show pilots than anything predicting or mirroring reality, I can recall a few of them that were animated. Even my more realistic ones don't take straight from people I know as reference, it's features of the people I've seen before all mixed together, strangers and people I grew up with alike.

My grandpa (dad's side) passed away just over three years ago. It started with cancer caused entirely by his smoking habit that was healthier (he claimed) due to rolling his cigarettes, but a broken heart from my grandma's fairly preventable death was the thing that did him in. He was unbelievable with a guitar, pretty charismatic and a good artist. He wasn't the greatest at times, but the good mostly outweighed the bad with him.
Earlier this year (around the time he died, actually), I wasn't thinking about the guy at all. I didn't have much of a reaction to his death due to other, more powerlevel-y circumstances, so I wasn't really thinking about the fact that he was gone much.
When I went to bed that night, I saw my grandpa. Like, it was clearly him, down to the specifics of his face and the sound of his voice.

It started with the usual surreal weirdness I get when I dream sometimes (talking to a young-looking kid about Lilo and Stitch, a giant CGI baby running around in third person with trippy music, normal dream things), and then I plopped into a colorful landscape that had a stormy-looking skyline. Some feet away was a rustic-looking house with a porch, and my grandpa was hanging out on it. He was just looking up at the sky, and even from a good distance away I immediately recognized him and went to sit next to him.
Thanks to immediately writing down shit I remembered hearing when I woke up, I can 100% confirm this exchange happened:
"I thought you were dead?"
"Well, I'm not sure where you got that idea."

And we talked for a while, just staring at the sky and the weird things going on some distance away.
I woke up dazed (I think I woke up before I was supposed to) and feeling like it wasn't just a trippy dream. Like my grandpa actually *did *just show up to talk to me.


I fully believe that ghosts exist and paranormal events happen, but a lot of scam artists spoil the broth and validate the idea that all of this is fake TV stuff.


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## whogoesthere (Aug 17, 2022)

ManInTheBlarms said:


> Your brain has a million ways to lie to you. There has yet to be a single piece of compelling evidence of ghosts or anything of the sort.
> 
> 
> "We're all made of stardust!!!" We get it faggot, go back to your mid-2000's rom coms.


You mean like how radiation didn't exist for billions of years because no compelling scientific evidence for its existed? Or that gravity didn't happen until Issac invented it? because up until a bloke was able to actually measure and identity it, it must not exist, as no faggot in a lab coat was able to write about it for a pithy article?

The very concept of something existing only once someone is able to convince people he found it in a lab is daft. I guess none of us are sentient, aware creatures because ScienceTM hasn't figured out why yet, so I guess because we have no proof for a Netflix television show to sing a song about, it must not exist.

Ghosts are real, and every night you go to sleep, they rape you. Spiritual Sodomy is your future.


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## Snack Cracker (Aug 17, 2022)

I’d like ghosts and things to be real but I’ve never experienced or seen anything personally that validates their existence much to my dismay. 

Love the paranormal but I’m still a skeptic for now.


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## Rumpled Foreskin (Aug 17, 2022)

Fek said:


> Alright, I found a Ouija Board straight out of the..70s-ish?
> 
> Edit: This style.
> View attachment 3423836
> ...


Way late, and you’re probably kidding, but don’t use one of those things. Ever.


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## Hallucinogenic Penguin (Aug 17, 2022)

Rumpled Foreskin said:


> Way late, and you’re probably kidding, but don’t use one of those things. Ever.


I agree. Might be opening up a door he can’t close, and the guests might not be the most savory to say the least.


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## Rumpled Foreskin (Aug 17, 2022)

Hallucinogenic Penguin said:


> I agree. Might be opening up a door he can’t close, and the guests might not be the most savory to say the least.


Gonna’ open your butthole door, I tell ya’ wut.


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## LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV] (Aug 17, 2022)

Hallucinogenic Penguin said:


> I agree. Might be opening up a door he can’t close, and the guests might not be the most savory to say the least.


What gives the Ouija an extra spooky vibe is that is not just the fundies but even the edgy wizards and occultists get all clenched butthole about it and warn of demons/astral parasites/elementals, etc  who'll lie and pretend to be the spirit of a death person just to fuck with your head. The latter part is a very freaky scenario. 

I personally feel there's a psicological aspect to it and even if its all subconscious you could probably mess with your own head.


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## Tacitus Kilgore (Aug 17, 2022)

I found a channel with some pretty good UFO stuff on YouTube. 



			https://www.youtube.com/c/EyesOnCinema/featured
		


They have some interviews with people that were done in the 80's and 90's. Some older stuff as well. I think there are few accounts from farmers on there as well.


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## Space_Dandy (Aug 17, 2022)

There's been a lot of personal stories shared, thanks to everyone for what they've shared. I've enjoyed reading this entire thread. Here's my contribution.

My mom told me about an experience that really shook me and changed my world view. She's not into magical thinking and doesn't go around saying things like this. Also some of this is corroborated by my dad, who is long long since divorced from my mom and has had very little communication with her for most of my life. My dad also seems to be suffering from some kind of early onset alzheimers and seems to forget a lot about his life... but he remembered this quite clearly and described it to me, it just was unforgettable.

An apartment my parents lived in before I was born just felt wrong to my mom. My dad didn't feel it, but she did. However, one day they came home and a roll of paper towels just unraveled itself onto the floor like something pulled it down. There were apparently other unsettling events like this, such as sounds in the other room that didn't make sense when nobody else was home.

My mom insisted they move, and they started looking to move. Ultimately they moved to another apartment nearby, similar price and area, they just wanted out of that specific one. But before they did, my mom was awakened in the middle of the night. A shadowy figure was standing before her, choking her, lifting her up with one arm. She could see another figure in the back of the room observing. She struggled and pushed free, and screamed. My dad bolted up and turned the light on, and nothing was there. However, there were bruises and scratches around my mom's neck. 

It is that physical sign that dispelled any doubt about that being some sort of sleep paralysis or nightmare, she is absolutely convinced she was visited by an incubus. 

In my dad's words, 'That place was just fucked up. I'll never forget the way your mom screamed that night, I've never heard anyone scream like that.' 

I don't really know what to think of all of this to be honest. I am a Christian and do believe in the existence of demons, but I do try to not dwell on this story because doing so makes it really hard to sleep. Especially if I feel I am faltering in my faith and am defenseless.


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## Archeops (Aug 18, 2022)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> There was a Brain Dump episode where Max G talked about some pseudoscience theory that if you hold a belief strongly, the universe will change to make it true because it cannot abide contradictions in perception and reality.
> 
> I'm not real into Mandela Effect, but maybe in an idealist world some incidences of unjustified mass delusion like that could be something where as a misperception becomes more common it starts to emerge autonomously in more people as the delusion tries to establish itself?


This is _technically_ true to some extent in the paranormal scene with the only differences being that the belief needs to be shared by other people in addition to it being felt strongly and it being more of a psychic force than it being a universal change, it's how some religious miracles are explained.


Space_Dandy said:


> There's been a lot of personal stories shared, thanks to everyone for what they've shared. I've enjoyed reading this entire thread. Here's my contribution.
> 
> My mom told me about an experience that really shook me and changed my world view. She's not into magical thinking and doesn't go around saying things like this. Also some of this is corroborated by my dad, who is long long since divorced from my mom and has had very little communication with her for most of my life. My dad also seems to be suffering from some kind of early onset alzheimers and seems to forget a lot about his life... but he remembered this quite clearly and described it to me, it just was unforgettable.
> 
> ...


It's difficult to say without having more information to go on but I'd definitely say that your parents were dealing with some form of negative spirit/entity, the bad feeling your mom had when they moved into this apartment and the physical signs your mom had after she was attacked are very clear signs of that being the case.

As far as said entity being demonic in nature I wouldn't rule that out (especially if any of the strange things happening involved smelling terrible scents like those associated with sulfur or rotting flesh and the loss/destruction of religious items) but unless your parents left out some key details I think the chance of this entity being an incubus are really low, it's worth noting that incubi are the male equivalent of succubi and everyone and their grandpappy should know about that equivalent for various reasons.

If you ask me I think your mother had an encounter with shadow people, supernatural beings whose alignments vary from benign to straight-up malicious and whose origins range from being born from negative emotions to hailing from a completely different dimension entirely.

And what should you think of all this? Unless you want to dig into into specifics I'd say be happy that your parents got out of that environment before things got worse and that the entities didn't follow 'em to their new apartment.


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## Fek (Sep 5, 2022)

Rumpled Foreskin said:


> Way late, and you’re probably kidding, but don’t use one of those things. Ever.


Oh I was dead serious, lmao.

I know, I know..but I got one anyway. And you know what? I actually felt kinda funny when I pulled it out of its box to make sure it wasn't a hunk of junk. It was sort of like having something brushing across you only nothing's physically there. Now, I don't get spooked by this sort of thing or scared at all of "occult" stuff. Also (and despite what some may think after reading my opinions in the tinfoil thread), I'm quite a sane fellow. So! for what it's worth: It wasn't some moment of paranoia or freaking out. It was kinda neat, really. The thing is definitely a flippin' relic at this point.

At any rate, I haven't had a proper night time sit down with it yet. I'll report back once I find the time to do so.

Edit: Oh holy shit, I missed this:


Space_Dandy said:


> before I was born





Space_Dandy said:


> she is absolutely convinced she was visited by an incubus.


Uh...yeah, so about that. Just how much later were you born, exactly?

Why am I asking? Oh, no reason..


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