# How did you form your moral worldview?



## Lemmingwise (May 31, 2021)

I am curious where people's morality derives from, if you observe any _knowingly_.

I find that nobody is immune from acting as moral agents, even nihilists or hedonists can be observed doing things or holding beliefs that seem to be more for moral reasons than pure selfishness.

Of course, no matter what ideals a person has, nobody is perfect in following it.

So unless you want to write an essay about how your moral framework was formed, let's ask a couple of questions to get things started:

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

And yes, this going into my interpol database.


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## Dark Edea (May 31, 2021)

Most of it is based upon Judeo-Christian values even though I wear a fedora. Something to be said for a few thousand years of lessons learned. Moderation is also important. And the old Russian maxim of "trust but verify."


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## Pruto (May 31, 2021)

It comes from mass media and consumerism obviously. 

At least it doesn't come from a backwards, deformed and shitty middle eastern cult like Judeo-Christianity or Islam tho.


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## The Lawgiver (May 31, 2021)

My moral worldview absolutely had fuckall to do with what media I was fed or religious stuff I was told by people.  I occasionally think about this but despite me being a fucking wild ass sometimes goblinoid of a child I had a fucking clear understanding of good and evil as well as the ability to talk and play video games competently before actually being able to properly read. It spiraled off into some warped stuff back then but as I got older I could explain shit better and not be held back by weird fucking delusions. When I was a kid I believed all sorts of weird fucking shit. Examples being people with big lower lips being some weird alien conspiracy group, or makeup being some form of NWO brainwashing chemical shit that made people act hyper-sexual. Nowadays I can sum up to reason it was less the physical features or what the person wore rather than the people I ran into with those features just so happenstance being utterly fucking shitty people with no grand conspiracy attached. 

My shitty autismo brain cannot concieve how the fuck people view morality as a thing that does not exist without being told to be so by a higher power. Higher powers usually exist to reinforce morality, rather than create it. When they end up trying to create it you end up with shit like the current year sectoid lizardman ass shit that either completely turns people off from the concept of life itself or indocrinates them into becoming a hateful, bitter person that uses "morality" as a bludgeon to beat down those they deem impure by the ruling class' standards. It's kinda ironic how morality can be used to do immoral things in cases like that.

I just realized I didn't go too deep into HOW I understood good and evil from an early age. It's more or less something that just came to me, possibly before I even had the words to describe it embedded in my brain. Someone wants to harm something or somebody for their own amusement? Disgusting, evil. I was what parents call "a biter" due to me quickly learning the best method of fighting back against the kids beating the shit out of you in preschool is to just bite them. That's mildly power-levelly but I'm pretty sure anyone else in that kinda situation had the same outcome back then. Got in trouble for that shit, punished too The evil little bastards that beat my ass in for no reason though? got off scot free, kept doing the same shit. I'm betting the kinda kids that were like that at a young age mostly grew up to be the worst of current year politics types we see these days, no way someone can outright lie and sensationalize shit without that very specific level of genuine primal evil in them. This evil, is of course not meant to be confused with cartoonish forms of evil like ranting about how you're going to take over the world and become the next overlord or whatever. Evil is a multifaceted thing with very VERY different kinds at play but we only seem to have broad words to describe things viewed as morally irregular or bad.

I could go on for actual AGES rambling about the concepts of Good and evil but I'd rather not make this mound of text any larger lmao


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## Fek (May 31, 2021)

Spoiler: I'll humor you






Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Transcendence. Becoming more than you are in spite of every worldly entity/force working against you every single step of the way.

If you have your priorities in order (your family, your community, your people/nation), then the above will see you and yours prosper.


Lemmingwise said:


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


Degeneracy. To live in a fashion that seeks out worldly pleasure and vapid fleeting personal gratification over all else.


Lemmingwise said:


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


As often as the situation calls for it. I have a strong conscience, so take that as you will.


Lemmingwise said:


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


I think I was innately wired for the morality which was pressed upon me through my youth. It was always present, but was trained and honed via Christianity.


Lemmingwise said:


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


I went through a fedora-tipping phase where I formed my own opinions on morality. This actually lead me to the realization of the previously mentioned.


Lemmingwise said:


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?


Not in all ways, no. We all have blind spots.


Lemmingwise said:


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


Yes, though I only remove people who are beyond saving.


Lemmingwise said:


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


None come to mind.


Lemmingwise said:


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Literally modernity. All things that take focus away from aspiring to become a better person/community/people are, like it or not, on some level immoral. You don't have to be perfect in order to see that..I _am_ posting on KF, for fuck's sake.


Lemmingwise said:


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


In-group preference.


Lemmingwise said:


> And yes, this going into my interpol database.


Glad I could help.





Dark Edea said:


> *Judeo-*Christian


Unless you're a convert, this is a misnomer and you should feel bad for equating these two faiths as though their morals are even in the same fucking ballpark as one another. The former _hates_ the latter, you know.


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## Dark Edea (May 31, 2021)

Fek said:


> Spoiler: I'll humor you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope. The contradiction is the entire point. Any inherent paradox or conflict that leads to a greater truth is a perfect analogue for the human experience.


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## Fek (May 31, 2021)

Dark Edea said:


> Nope. The contradiction is the entire point. Any inherent paradox or conflict that leads to a greater truth is a perfect analogue for the human experience.


I miss my  sticker.


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## Lame Entropy (May 31, 2021)

My morality is determined mostly through self-interest. Do I want something done to me? No? Then I won't do it to other people.  I'm sure you can poke holes in this but on a general level it works for me.
Also, I like Kant's first formulation of the universal law.


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## Cheerlead-in-Chief (May 31, 2021)

I think from my experience, a religious background until seeing obviously people in church acting like hypocrites or acting from their own self-interests due to smoking their own farts that since "grandfather's the pastor therefore the church building is an extension of our homes and we rule and dictate it how we see fit"....I gradually became disillusioned in organized religion, but can't say it out loud for being threatened back into a mental hospital because "THIS IS A CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLD".


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## L50LasPak (May 31, 2021)

I've faced a Centipede's Dilemma on morality for the last half of my life and find that my grip on it is increasingly weak. Infact I'm no longer sure if there really is such a thing as morality or if its just a pretense. At the moment my morality is based entirely on my own personal biases, which I think most people base theirs on whether they know it or not.


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## Lemmingwise (May 31, 2021)

L50LasPak said:


> At the moment my morality is based entirely on my own personal biases, which I think most people base theirs on whether they know it or not


I think this is inevitable to a degree, but since biases we are unaware of are poor subject for talking about, I tried to frame the questions into focusing on what parts we are aware off.

I'll also abbreviate my own:
I saw supreme evil. If supreme evil exists why not supreme good?

This overturned many of my previous moral thoughts and beliefs.

I stopped giving people benefit of the doubt for their lack of knowledge and realised it was tolerance of evil.

*The most virtuous thing is taking responsibility for justice, charity and guidance. The most sinful is to explicitly do and follow that which one knows to harm others or the self.*


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## WeWuzFinns (May 31, 2021)

The highest moral code is to do what you think you can get away with. Dumb people can't think far ahead so they take unnecessary risks. Stupid people rob banks and smart ones run them. Both from my perspective are criminal, but other one is considerably lower risk unfortunately.

Everything else is slave morality. While safe if you can't think far ahead, those who follow slave morality will generally end up with less resources than those who don't.

Morality/social behavior evolved because reproduction would be extremely energy inefficient, if the animal kills all of its offspring. This familial care varies from animals to animal and some animals even take care of those genetically dissimilar to them (e.g. birds who got cucked and humans).


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## L50LasPak (May 31, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I think this is inevitable to a degree, but since biases we are unaware of are poor subject for talking about, I tried to frame the questions into focusing on what parts we are aware off.


I suppose I agree with this as a general point but I do want to make the point that I am aware of many of my biases and deliberately leave a lot of them in place. Partially because some of them are useful (my intense hatred for advertising) and partly because I don't want something worse to take their place. Though I'm aware not everyone thinks this way.


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## Dark Edea (May 31, 2021)

@L50LasPak is a bad source for studying world views because @L50LasPak hates all of the creatures of the sea and is on a crusade to murder each and every one of them in their beds.


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## Pompeii Shitposter (May 31, 2021)

Does it make my peepee hard?
Yes? Then it's good.
No? Then it's bad.


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## Smolrolls (May 31, 2021)

Pompeii Shitposter said:


> Does it make my peepee hard?
> Yes? Then it's good.
> No? Then it's bad.


Does it make it clean?


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## Fek (May 31, 2021)

Spoiler: Off-topic replies






Lemmingwise said:


> I saw supreme evil.





L50LasPak said:


> my intense hatred for advertising


The (former) old lady would get a kick out of the lengths I would go in order to not have my mind poisoned by ads. Fuck the deliberate psy-op that is advertising.





Cheerlead-in-Chief said:


> I think from my experience, a religious background until seeing obviously people in church acting like hypocrites or acting from their own self-interests due to smoking their own farts that since "grandfather's the pastor therefore the church building is an extension of our homes and we rule and dictate it how we see fit"....I gradually became disillusioned in organized religion, but can't say it out loud for being threatened back into a mental hospital because "THIS IS A CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLD".


That's what drove me towards fedora-tipping for a time, personally..that sort of self-righteous crap. In time, I came to realize that in spite of the corrupted members of the congregation's best efforts to drive me away from the faith? All they truly had done was set me on a path to test it on a level I never would have were they not present in my life. Eventually, I came to realize that even though they may have turned me off to the church? Christ still walked alongside me, so to speak. I hadn't shunned Christianity from my life; I had merely rejected the path of sin presented in the church's sycophantic fart-huffers. Without even realizing it, I was walking the path of understanding..of a higher calling, if you will.

I hope that you may find yourself in similar circumstances as you journey through life. I firmly believe that there is always good reason for the paths presented to us.


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## Cheerlead-in-Chief (May 31, 2021)

Fek said:


> Spoiler: Off-topic replies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, that is encouraging. 

It's pretty sad that the pastor, for years kept sermons on abstinence and girls slapping offensive guys "because my pastor told me so" while his granddaughters and a step-granddaughter had babies out of wedlock and he brought the step-granddaughter onto the stage mid-sermon just to squash rumors of her as an instance.

I know fundamentally (most) people are good.


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## Lemmingwise (May 31, 2021)

Cheerlead-in-Chief said:


> Thank you, that is encouraging.
> 
> It's pretty sad that the pastor, for years kept sermons on abstinence and girls slapping offensive guys "because my pastor told me so" while his granddaughters and a step-granddaughter had babies out of wedlock and he brought the step-granddaughter onto the stage mid-sermon just to squash rumors of her as an instance.
> 
> I know fundamentally (most) people are good.


How the fuck did not half the men take their families and walk away at that point?


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## Cheerlead-in-Chief (May 31, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> How the fuck did not half the men take their families and walk away at that point?


I don't know honestly. The pastor's family history is long and messy including a granddaughter with presumed Native American heritage, blended families and divorce and petty drama between baby mommas and drug use.
 The population of the church is a combo of married/widowed elderly, married Boomers, my generation and the kids.
One time a lady that sang in choir was dating one man and dropped another white guy. The dumped guy sits across from her in the pews. I didn't notice it but the men of the church were tensing up in preparation for a fight that never happened lol.


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## TFT-A9 (May 31, 2021)

I haven't spent much time thinking about how I arrived where I did, mostly because it doesn't really matter that much and there's way too much to unravel.

I operate off an assumption that people are, for the most part, lazy, obnoxious fucking assholes.  The good ones are rare.  Positions of power are magnets for the biggest assholes and will consequently be filled by said assholes more often than not.  Good people don't generally seek power over others, at least not for its own sake.  Distrust power, view it with a jaundiced and wary eye.  Distrust anyone who claims to be working in your interest.  Distrust honeyed words and smiles.  View acts of good that take on a performative bent extremely poorly, and do good quietly without expectation of reward or adulation.


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## ArnoldPalmer (Jun 1, 2021)

1. Be useful and helpful to those you care about, even and especially if it isn't advantageous to do so.
2. Greed, narcissism, overt selfishness, or most any type of sociopathic/animalistic behavior that isn't acceptable in civilized society. "Jew behavior", basically.
3. Every single day.
4. I stole a lot from Christianity, the rest is based on life experience.
5. The most defining moment was living in Florida and observing the cesspool of degenerate behavior therein. Everyone treats everyone like shit there, it's like watching monkeys at the zoo fight over a toy. No social cohesion, everyone is out to get you.
6. My dad seems to even fill the gaps in my own personal morality. I definitely don't claim to have it all figured out.
7. Yes, no.
8. Not really.
9. Engaging in modern society at all. I see no good in any of it that isn't tainted by something intrinsic to that thing.
10. Being honest about things. Prejudice. I think it's okay to see the world for what it is, even if that means not being nice.


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## Haim Arlosoroff (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Being kind to those who can do you no good, and who society will mark you down for helping.  From defending Alex Jones in a public debate, to serving a condemned child molester and murderer their request for a last meal.  Staying unbent, when all of society seeks to bend you.  Staying true to your word or your code when it counts rather than when it is fashionable and popular.



Lemmingwise said:


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


I believe the devil never lies, he suggests without lowering himself to outright lie.  Those who are fashionably moral, but inwardly vain.  Those who join journalism for the finest of reasons but fail the test and serve the beast of advertisement and politics.  Those who retract their help when criticized by onlookers, those who bend their morality to a mob's fickle emotions for popularity.



Lemmingwise said:


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


Some morals are customs, you belong because you bear the weight of doing them.  I notice when others don't follow.  I notice when I do.  I have been lucky to witness a form of Moral Beauty or two, a mother crying over the thought of what if what she had done had hurt her child.  A man toiling because he promised to do a thing.  People being shamed into turning on a majority and changing their minds for the sake of their morals.  I recall these moments when I'm faced with doing the right thing or the easy thing.



Lemmingwise said:


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


Psalms as an adult struggling with faith, Aesop's fables which I read as a child, The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius as an angsty atheist teen without a real father figure.  Finding parables in my life, Alex Jones makes for a poor Socrates but I've defended him again and again against closed-minded do-gooders who command me to think a certain way where and when there are unanswered questions.  I will not vote to condemn Socrates to die, it is a moral matter not a logical one.  My morality forms itself from those occasions.

I think I would have a very tough time explaining the emotional tug of moral beauty but when you see something pure it compels you to act.  Its like nothing else, its impossible to describe to someone who wasn't there or who has ever witnessed something like that.



Lemmingwise said:


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


My father was a weak man morally, he couldn't conceive of me or my sister as people separate from what he wanted me to be.  He was a violent man, and a drug user before he abandoned his family.  During one of those times, I remember saying in a very detached way _"This is all that we will ever have, this is who you are"_ and he fled from me.  I was a child and he cried out and ran.  I think about that moment, that was the only time my father taught me anything about morality.



Lemmingwise said:


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?


The dead and the fictional, because their stories are fixed and over.  I don't trust people to be moral without proper leadership and the pope is busy using Social Justice to project an image of himself like every corrupt rapist in Hollywood and international politics.  When Iran says that it can't hit back over Soleimani's killing because America has only fictional heroes like SpongeBob SquarePants, I completely understand what they mean.  Is Ben Shapiro or Sargon of Akkad supposed to help me to morally reason?  Is Rabbi Yaacov Perrin supposed to help me to value human life because of our shared _"Judeo-Christian"_ values?  There is nobody, and the silence is deafening.



Lemmingwise said:


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


I think social customs should mark in-group and out-group because otherwise racial traits do.  However I don't socially exclude those that fall back on using racial traits to form their in-group and out-group but I find their worrying after a white liberal woman hurting herself among migrants itself to be worrying.  White liberals are, beyond any other group culturally, racially, or on matters of faith, my out-group.  I will live among Black Christian-Americans before I live in California or northwards along the coast.  Suffer not the consumer culture's morality of the drug addict and the fashion icon.



Lemmingwise said:


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


All the time, sometimes by my intuition that something is connected to a moral issue or that someone I'm with isn't to be trusted.  Sometimes annoyingly that I'm going to have to do the moral thing alone and leave the crowd I'm with.  I once met a man who I thought believed like me.  Then he tried to get me to buy him a carton of expensive cigarettes, the premium brand, because he had fallen on tough times.  He wouldn't accept a smoke, he wanted his brand.  So I told him no.  He then, very calmly, tried to rob me.  I nearly killed him, over cigarettes.  He didn't listen to a word I ever said, he lied to everyone he ever spoke to.  He was completely simple and evil.  I couldn't believe a man could be an animal so simply.  He wouldn't leave me alone, he couldn't be reasoned with, so we fought and he lost.  Very quickly from a conversation I genuinely was gladly a part of until he suddenly dropped a mask.  If I was a woman, or smaller, who knows what he would have done?  His stupidity saved me far more than my judgement.  A man completely turned into an animal, in an instant, because I wouldn't read the red flags and judge a man.



Lemmingwise said:


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


_"Crushing Puss"_

I'm very happily married, but there was a youtube debater who asked someone_ "whats the difference between a woman and a transwoman?"_ maybe it was Null or maybe Null featured it on Mad at the Internet? Maybe it was the Distributionist? It rattles around in my head when I think about my dating life before the wife and when I ponder why men and women are so broken. There isn't a difference, and so all of sex is just homosexual sodomy unless it led to marriage and family. I don't want to be the guy who promotes missionary-only and only for the purposes of procreation, but I no longer think its binary. There is a middle ground between that and chasing sex relentlessly as if it is a form of masturbation. Its stagnant, thats what I think is wrong about it. Obviously everyone should progress at their own pace, and enjoy life. But at some point, the girl you're with may as well be a dude. More and more, I think of the pervert and the sex pest as a queer form of homosexuality because it is just childish and stagnant.  People wallow in it like its a drug lifestyle or a consoomerist trap.

Or Social Justice, but that is beating a dead horse.  Lenin critiqued _"Ultra-leftism" _which was his term for it in his work '_"Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder'_.  When the communists know better on Guns or Social Justice, just argue using their terms.  It confuses the hell out of Justice Socialists.



Lemmingwise said:


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


**SCREAMING HOARSE GERMAN NOISES**
Political extremisms of a actually wider set then you might imagine, Anti-centrism isn't just a joke for me.  Bismarck's State Socialism created Worker Committees that administered health care through individual 'sickness funds' without nationalizing the health care industry.  Monarchies which organize labor without destroying the free market seem far more moral than what AOC is up to in Congress.  Intervene to organize the little guy into a more competitive form in the market, don't regulate the market into 2/3rds of your taxes while still privatizing profits.  Restructure the demand side of the market, not the supply.  Let that reorganize naturally.


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## Lame Entropy (Jun 1, 2021)

Eh morality based on some religious principles isn't inherently bad on a basic level, what kills it is all of the child molestation and "rules for ye but not for me". 
I prefer learning about pagan religions merely because they acknowledge the human flaw even in Gods instead of painting them as unattainable perfect and pure figures.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 1, 2021)

Haim Arlosoroff said:


> I believe the devil never lies, he suggests without lowering himself to


The presuppositional prince of lies never lies?

Can you expand on this thought process?



Lame Entropy said:


> I prefer learning about pagan religions merely because they acknowledge the human flaw even in Gods instead of painting them as unattainable perfect and pure figures.


Isn't the point of an ideal that it is unattainable and only assympotically approachable?


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## Lame Entropy (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> Isn't the point of an ideal that it is unattainable and only assympotically approachable?


I'd argue that the acknowledgement of an ideal being unattainable necessitates the acknowledgement of basic human flaw and a certain amount of leeway for the sake of fairness but the religious sect I'm familiar with was the fire and brimstone kind so I'm quite biased. It's more or less encompassed with my disagreement over the "eternal punishment for mortal sin" thing. Asides from that, it's the typical atheistic arguments that I won't bore/annoy you guys with since I doubt OP means for this to become a stupid religious debate thread.


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## Haim Arlosoroff (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> The presuppositional prince of lies never lies?
> 
> Can you expand on this thought process?


Imagine I know you completely, and imagine I can place you in the desert and starve you.  I can feed you half the truth, "If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." and if you do not remember the other truth "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." then you are lost to lies, but no lie was spoken.  Journalism does this.  How often we hear of the racisms of the white people, how often are non-whites racist? Never?  Why do they lie then?  They didn't.  But they did too.  They presented a selected set of facts, purposely to get you to do a thing which you would not do if presented with ALL the facts.  They change your mind, to what they want without stating one untrue thing.

This is to become the lie, to embody it, there is no greater form of lying then when I only speak carefully selected truths and let your false intuitions grow and fester from my selective interpretation of the facts which were beyond your control to seek out.  Governments do this, we all know this.  So do Universities today.





I know why this person has their opinions, they were selective cultivated by her professors.  You can cultivate opinions within entire democracies with such lies.  That is the whole point of keeping secrets after all.  When you see the Black man / White Woman image, and you realize it exists to push a truth into being.  Forcing a thing which isn't yet true but you feel you can make it true by editing people's perceptions of reality.  That authority, that authorship, is the devil from my personal point of view.  It is the embodiment of evil because it doesn't ask permission anymore than you would raping or killing a person.  It is done to them, and nobody will know but the perpetrator.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 1, 2021)

Lame Entropy said:


> Asides from that, it's the typical atheistic arguments that I won't bore/annoy you guys with since I doubt OP means for this to become a stupid religious debate thread


I was OP and in any case, I don't own the thread, people should talk about whatever they fancy. I wrote the OP to leave room for both ecclesiastical and personal interpretations.

I just wanted to have a look into other people's minds/experiences in relation to this subject. Since you wondered about OP's intention, my intention wasn't for a debate, but for a sharing of why we think what we think. 

For instance I wonder, what is the value of pagan religions to you if you have an atheistic world view?


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## Lame Entropy (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I was OP and in any case, I don't own the thread, people should talk about whatever they fancy. I wrote the OP to leave room for both ecclesiastical and personal interpretations.
> 
> I just wanted to have a look into other people's minds/experiences in relation to this subject. Since you wondered about OP's intention, my intention wasn't for a debate, but for a sharing of why we think what we think.
> 
> For instance I wonder, what is the value of pagan religions to you if you have an atheistic world view?


Oh it's purely academic/entertainment type media for me, there's just more to study/interpret if human-type messiness is in the mix. Even in regular media, "perfect" characters are hardly interesting.
Anyway, I just mentioned the religious debate thing because it's too easy for these topics to fall into and focus on that.


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## glow (Jun 1, 2021)

Interesting, I was thinking about this topic earlier today, specifically the first culture war I became embroiled in. A great many people in my community were religious and involved in the church or other religion, whereas I am not. I came to learn that the world we was likely formed by incredibly good fortune and many increments and improvements over an unfathomable period of time, and I could not in good consciousness say that I believed in god and so on when I knew this to be untrue.

I am not a militant atheist and I do not wear this on my sleeve, but when asked where I went to church and whether I knew pastor so-and-so I did not lie. As a teenager I was spoken about in hushed terms as if I was some kind of monster. After all, what kind of monster wouldn't believe in god? Some of my friends couldn't invite me round to their place when their parents weren't present. I was excluded from non-religious events and gatherings. IRC and later /r/atheism are today somewhat cringy but for a few years they were my oasis - finally, through the power of the internet I see I am not alone.

This was my first culture war: people wanted me to conform to their idea of morality, and I wanted them to fuck off. In some regards this has not changed today but the subjects are somewhat different.

I don't think I have interesting answers for the others but on the basis of that:


Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


To do what you will - enjoy life in all its fullness and glory whilst remembering that one day it will be over. It is a gift to use or waste as you see fit.


Lemmingwise said:


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


Do not stop someone trying to do just that.


Lemmingwise said:


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


This business of cancelling people, especially for reasons of moral panic. I remember hearing about this emerging trend in Chinese internet about 10-15 years ago - people would try to get people fired if someone did something they didn't like, without any evidence. People would amplify something they didn't understand and people were hounded off the internet, out of work and sometimes into suicide. I thought I was so glad to live in the west where this never happened.


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## The Great Chandler (Jun 1, 2021)

1*. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?*
You know when 9/11 was happening where everyone else was running away from the crashing debris (for a serious good reason), while the firemen were headed into it? That! The willingness to disregard one's own life to save others! It's a simple virtue, but one that I highly commend

*2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?*
This I believe is a subjective manner when motive is put into play, but it would have be manipulating others into ruining their life. To make someone lose their soul in the process; worse if done out of joy

*3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?*
I don't think much on this. Not sure if it's my confidence in knowing from right or wrong, but one thing is for certain: If you fall into a low place, get back up!

*4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?*
You can say I formed them on my own. Though I'm pretty sure we all agree that we must have picked values from whatever place, whether it's Laozi or even Fred McFeely Rogers

*5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?*
I didn't have much money at the time, but it did feel good buying a burger for this one homeless dude

*6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?*
My older brother apparently. He seems more levelheaded than I am most times

*7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?*
Depends depends... I just think people should be compassionate in general, while also question their virtues as well so as to not be too self-righteous. Also, it depends on who, but I know I wouldn't hang out with a hedonistic junkie chode!

*8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?*
Could be that time at work were a customer of mine was suffering serious muscle cramps. I was a cashier at the time, but I couldn't help see him that way, so I ran to the nearest store and bought him an aspirin. I almost got fired for doing that though (the manager was a hard ass), but that's better than leaving an old guy to suffer!

*9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?*
Weirdly enough, social drinking, especially the getting drunk sort. One because it's personally uncomfortable to me, but also because of how dangerous it is. I don't mean to sound like a prude, but a throbbing headache after a hangover isn't worth it! Worse if drugs are involved

*10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?*
Telling someone not to chop their own dick off! I'm perfectly fine with the LGBs, but the T is what I'm concerned about


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## Just Dont (Jun 1, 2021)

I'm bipolar and my morality is ever changing. 

I have my core principles that stems from my parents and childhood experiences, plus what society indoctrinate into me (don't commit crimes, don't hurt others, be responsible, be proactive). Those core principles are the base that construct my entire ethos and inner self. 

I also have "soft morals" which come from adult experiences and my own desires and ambitions. Those "soft morals" are based on my personality and what I believe is right.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 1, 2021)

Lame Entropy said:


> Oh it's purely academic/entertainment type media for me, there's just more to study/interpret if human-type messiness is in the mix. Even in regular media, "perfect" characters are hardly interesting.
> Anyway, I just mentioned the religious debate thing because it's too easy for these topics to fall into and focus on that.


I find the same in studying the lives and writings of christian thinkers like aquinas (as well as non christian thinkers). There is instant human messiness, if that's what you're looking for.

It seems to me that there is more at play for you than just the supposed perfection (even though I'm sure it's a factor). I may be wrong, just an instinct.



glow said:


> To do what you will - enjoy life in all its fullness and glory whilst remembering that one day it will be over. It is a gift to use or waste as you see fit


Interesting post overall. Surprising that you word it almost verbatim as anton lavey did.


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## MAPK phosphatase (Jun 1, 2021)

I just stole most of the morality from Christianity and Stoicism and now pretend it's a conclusion I came to through reason.


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## Just Another Apocalypse (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I am curious where people's morality derives from, if you observe any _knowingly_.
> 
> I find that nobody is immune from acting as moral agents, even nihilists or hedonists can be observed doing things or holding beliefs that seem to be more for moral reasons than pure selfishness.
> 
> ...


1. To save a life. 'To save one life is to save all humanity's
2. Noncing
3. Wha...???
4a No. B. Jesse Duke (no relation to David)
5.
6.a No. b. Trust no one, not even your own guru.
7a No. B No
8. Again: Wha...???
9. Enabling troonery
10. Pointing out troons are mindsick.


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## Madre Muerte (Jun 1, 2021)

Gypsies came and messed up my country


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## glow (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> Interesting post overall. Surprising that you word it almost verbatim as anton lavey did.


I hadn't heard of that guy, but having read about him and his group for the last 30 minutes or so, I realise that use that phrase because someone I knew in passing once used the phrase once and it stuck with me. It wouldn't surprise me if he would have been into this sort of thing or at least curious. It's a shame I never knew him better, I wouldn't know how to get into contact with him.

Thanks for the reference. This is an interesting body of work and I do see a lot of my views reflected back, at least in the lightweight reading I've done so far. I will be sure to read more.

I had just simplistically assumed it was an organisation for edgelords and attention seekers but never actually read about it. There's a lot to read about but this bit on their FAQ blew apart a load of my thoughts on the matter:


> Why do Satanists worship The Devil?​We don’t. Satanists are atheists. We see the universe as being indifferent to us, and so all morals and values are subjective human constructions.
> [...]
> Satan to us is a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism, and it serves as an external metaphorical projection of our highest personal potential. We do not believe in Satan as a being or person.
> Do Satanists perform sacrifices?​No. We are atheists. The only people who perform sacrifices are those who believe in supernatural beings who would consider a sacrifice to be some form of payment for a request or form of worship. Since we do not believe in supernatural beings there is no reason for a Satanist to make a sacrifice of any sort.


(source)

Honestly, I hadn't expected satanists to be so reasonable.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 1, 2021)

glow said:


> Honestly, I hadn't expected satanists to be so reasonable.


Most religions are pretty reasonable in the brochure. It was his diary about how sex magick requires raping children that may make him a little less reasonable.

Feminists say they're about equality, christians say it is all about being saved, scientology says it's about an interesting personality test.... and before you know it you're a member and the requirements present themselves.



Lame Entropy said:


> Oh it's purely academic/entertainment type media for me, there's just more to study/interpret if human-type messiness is in the mix.


One more thing...

I think it's sad how little we really know about pagan practices. Nordic paganism wasn't written about until the active practice was gone for about 200 years.


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## Cheerlead-in-Chief (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> Most religions are pretty reasonable in the brochure. It was his diary about how sex magick requires raping children that may make him a little less reasonable.
> 
> Feminists say they're about equality, christians say it is all about being saved, scientology says it's about an interesting personality test.... and before you know it you're a member and the requirements present themselves.
> 
> ...


So how do I get into Satanism or Wicca?


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## Kermit Jizz (Jun 1, 2021)

I've been noticing that lately, especially in the last year my moral compass is increasingly defined by whatever boomers/Christians from decades ago used to say. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily a good way to form morality, but considering they've been right about just about fucking everything who am I to argue?

This shit with the Blues Clues faggot parade having the pedo flag is another win for the above reasoning. I personally don't have any issues with gays, but fuck it the christ-tards were right about LGBT being a front for pedos. I now am fully in the "fags get the rope" camp.

I think I'm just at the point where I'm going to trust the wisdom of our traditions for my morals from now on. I may (or may not, take your pick) be smarter than most individual christ-tards, but they are speaking the wisdom of countless generations of humans. I just have to accept that despite my personal feelings, there is probably a damn good reason every single distinct culture throughout human history has hated faggotry, race mixing, niggers, general degenracy, female leadership/freedom, and so forth.


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## Lame Entropy (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I think it's sad how little we really know about pagan practices. Nordic paganism wasn't written about until the active practice was gone for about 200 years.


I'm honestly more disappointed over the eddas being rewritten by scholars to fit a Christian model


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## ArnoldPalmer (Jun 1, 2021)

Just Dont said:


> I'm bipolar


God that makes so much fucking sense.


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## Just Dont (Jun 1, 2021)

ArnoldPalmer said:


> God that makes so much fucking sense.


What do you mean?


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## Prophetic Spirit (Jun 1, 2021)

> What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Technically help others, giving more of your time of those rather than you. And not in a religious-based manner.



> What is the opposite, the most sinful?


Obviously any type of harm against a human, but probably the worst is rape. I always said rape is worse than murder because the probably PSTD the victim gonna had is a pseudo-death sentence if not treated well.



> What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


Not often, because I hardly have contact with people in general.



> Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority?


Yes.



> Which authority?


My parents, but mostly my father.



> If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


Well, it's actually mixed with my own life, and the most defining moment was when i was 17 years old.



> Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself?


No.



> Why (not)?


Because right now is my builded moral view. I don't need more knowledge.



> Do you think other people should follow your moral view?


No, because probably they're gonna get sad more than normal.



> Do you remove people from your life that don't?


No, that's stupid. They're always welcome if can be polite.



> Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


Yes, and was good.



> What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Actually, if you're a angry person near everyday, getting drunk.



> What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


Questioning. Oh yes.


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## knobslobbin (Jun 1, 2021)

For the most part I know what's right and wrong from my upbringing, 99% of things are cut and dry. (not that always do the right thing, but I at least know what that is.

The complicated shit that you would cover in an ethics or philosophy class rarely happen in real life.

don't lie cheat and steal, and be kind. Bam bases covers, no need to complicate it.


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## pedoguyguykrai (Jun 1, 2021)

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

Not fuck anyone over. Seriously half the bad shit people do always involve some one trying or fucking someone over. druggies steal, jealous husbands kill their cheating wives, the root of all evil is someone fucking some else over to a point they react violently or have a bad worldview. its human nature yes, but the worst part of it. 

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?
behaving in activities that can fuck people over.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?
Some nights I sit and think, how did I become so jaded, so angry, so nihilistic..then I remember I got fucked over multiple times, and my job is cleaning after fuck ups..
4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?
none, no one was either stable enough, or well enough to be an important facet in my life, if anything they're examples as to why I shouldn't repeat what they did. 
5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?
The moment I had to grow up to early.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?

Everyone I would consider friends, or acquaintances are either too warped in their own view, any family I have left alive are cut off for being grifters, the moment I started living for me. about your average kiwifarm user might have a better world or moral view, than I would, but even that I consider a tad bit flawed. 

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?
Not really, I've cut my sister off for being a grifter when I started making bank, she got pregnant at the same I age I had to get up and work, shes a commie too, and have called and begged for bail money when she runs into a bout of bad decisions. 

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?
I've become suprised at how unfeeling I've become, yes I occasionally mourn what I've lost but I am mostly numb some days.

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?
Virtue signalling

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?
Thinking about profits over people, I never got that when you run a business you want to make money right?


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## Blamo (Jun 1, 2021)

Me talking about morality, that's rich. lol


Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


The acquisition of power/self improvement while helping other find their way and letting them thrive.


Lemmingwise said:


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


2. things
Just giving all your "influence" away for no reason. People's complacency allow tyrants and oppression to arise.
Just abusing others for joy. That's just being slave to your animal nature. 


Lemmingwise said:


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


Not really, I am a nobody. My decisions carry no weight. The more important and powerful someone is, the more important making the right decisions is.


Lemmingwise said:


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


From my past experiences and a combination of my inherent romantic personality combined with my admiration of getting things done.
I looked for past experience, strategy etc. to make sense of the world.


Lemmingwise said:


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


The socialist block's failure, my family's hardships and my personal failures. It is a process.


Lemmingwise said:


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?


Dunno. Moral questions in general are like kryptonite to me. Most of it is just fluff for people to justify living with a boot on their neck.


Lemmingwise said:


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


B) No, of course not. In fact I do like that other people and groups have different views. If not compressed together in universalist nonsense there is a lot of room for improvement, competition and reaching our potential via conflict.
A) I don't think so. I think it is impossible to iron out the two extremes.


Lemmingwise said:


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


I really can't be outraged at my foes or people in general. You do what you do, because I am weak.


Lemmingwise said:


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Just following the rules, giving away your consent without thinking.
I think interpersonal bonds should be important. (kinda contradiction on my part.)


Lemmingwise said:


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


I think conflict in necessary. Homogenization and globalization are pretty much evil for me because it takes away the opportunity for groups to exist, let alone compete. 

Also I think sacrificing everything for convenience is cringe. You give away your ability to affect the world because you are too lazy to do things. All that just flows away to somebody else who you will be beholden to unequally.


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## Solid Snek (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I am curious where people's morality derives from, if you observe any _knowingly_.
> 
> I find that nobody is immune from acting as moral agents, even nihilists or hedonists can be observed doing things or holding beliefs that seem to be more for moral reasons than pure selfishness.



How many hedonists would say they are not moral agents? Hendoism is very much an ethical system, and while some "hedonists" may not be _philosophical_ hedonists, I think even "naive" hedonists tend to be, at least on some level, aware of the virtue of happiness, in favour of happiness as an intrinsic value, and morally committed to the maximization of happiness.

Also, why are you saying "pure selfishness" in this manner, as if pure selfishness is the opposite of / incompatible with, moral reason? Is this to be an Objectivist-free thread?





> Of course, no matter what ideals a person has, nobody is perfect in following it.
> 
> So unless you want to write an essay about how your moral framework was formed, let's ask a couple of questions to get things started:



Ten questions is more than a couple.

More to the point: with these questions, are you asking us to answer from the perspective of _what we hold to be moral_? Or what we hold to be _objectively/ universally moral?_ (if there happen to be any disagreements between these two positions, at any rate)

I'd be happy to answer to the most autistic of my ability, but I'd like to clear this point up first, before I go and muck up your whole questionnaire.


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## Gaming Gamer (Jun 1, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


My own, if you want to get philosophical is anything our own? Since its probably already been thought of by now. I observe before I make judgements. I've done this even as a toddler and a kid. I played in the corner by myself as a kid. I watched others play not out of envy but to learn and observe.



Lemmingwise said:


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


There was no "moment" it always has been this way for me. Once I became self aware once I established consciousness, its been forming ever since.



Lemmingwise said:


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?


Yes, my mother.



Lemmingwise said:


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


A. No I am not the arbiter of morality.
B. No because one has to do a lot for that to happen. As an extreme example be a kid fucker yeah I ain't going to be your friend.


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## Titos (Jun 1, 2021)

Basically the NAP only with obvious attempts to drag society into insanity being counted as aggression. Don't fuck with other people, try to help other people if they want to be helped, and if they don't want to be helped but they're actions are causing society to decay then they should be forcefully helped. How I came to this is just realizing that almost everyone, including myself is a fucking idiot in some way or another and people should just leave shit alone but you can't have someone poisoning the air next to you for too long without you too being poisoned.


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## Fek (Jun 1, 2021)

Damn, getting some pretty fucking good replies.. @Haim Arlosoroff in particular. Top notch, sir.


Titos said:


> Basically the NAP only with obvious attempts to drag society into insanity being counted as aggression. Don't fuck with other people, try to help other people if they want to be helped, and if they don't want to be helped but they're actions are causing society to decay then they should be forcefully helped. How I came to this is just realizing that almost everyone, including myself is a fucking idiot in some way or another and people should just leave shit alone but you can't have someone poisoning the air next to you for too long without you too being poisoned.


My biggest issue with the entire idea of the NAP is that it's reactionary. If modernity has demonstrated anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's that you cannot simply sit back and wait until other people fuck things up before you fix them. Strictly reacting to bad behavior constantly leaves one on the backfoot. Sooner or later, you must take an active stance in how you want your society to be shaped..lest you lose everything you cherish.


Kermit Jizz said:


> I've been noticing that lately, especially in the last year my moral compass is increasingly defined by whatever boomers/Christians from decades ago used to say.


One man on his own cannot possibly hold a candle to the wisdom passed on through tr-


Kermit Jizz said:


> I think I'm just at the point where I'm going to trust the wisdom of our traditions for my morals from now on. I may (or may not, take your pick) be smarter than most individual christ-tards, but they are speaking the wisdom of countless generations of humans. I just have to accept that despite my personal feelings, there is probably a damn good reason every single distinct culture throughout human history has hated faggotry, race mixing, niggers, general degenracy, female leadership/freedom, and so forth.


..Yeah, that. That exactly, in fact.


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## mario if smoke weed (Jun 2, 2021)

My moral worldview shifted after I realized that 1) I needed to stop trying to please liberal faggots and 2) what these liberal faggots were trying to shove down my throat were lies, falsifications, you name it. I once thought that conservatives were lame fuddy-duddies against positive change but lately I'm starting to see that they had some good points about things. I'm not sold on some of their beliefs, but you won't see me looting and murdering over it like the BLMers.

Faggots aside, I try to just do right by the people I give a shit about, stay out of trouble, mind my own business, and not really give a shit about much else. Not much really happens where I live and I'd rather have that over anything else. The way the government and elite are handling things makes me feel like I might not really get to live as long as I might've expected, so why spend whatever time I have left going out of my way to make a fuss? Idunno.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 2, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> More to the point: with these questions, are you asking us to answer from the perspective of _what we hold to be moral_? Or what we hold to be _objectively/ universally moral?_ (if there happen to be any disagreements between these two positions, at any rate)
> 
> I'd be happy to answer to the most autistic of my ability, but I'd like to clear this point up first, before I go and muck up your whole questionnaire.


It's an interesting question. What's the chasm between the two? What do you hold to be moral which is not universal? And what is universally moral, yet not to you?

Don't worry too much about the questionaire; it's just there as a path to talk about these things. It's the conversation that matters, not the specific questions. If you think there is something interesting in dismantling/critizing the questions, for example, have at it!

I find what is universally moral more interesting but I put more focus on personal morality for the questions, because it's a better conversation starter. Everyone likes to talk about their own views and it creates some space where it is hard to criticise when people can say "yeah but that's how I see it" as a trump card.

I hope that works as an answer for you.


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## Solid Snek (Jun 2, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> It's an interesting question. What's the chasm between the two? What do you hold to be moral which is not universal? And what is universally moral, yet not to you?
> 
> Don't worry too much about the questionaire; it's just there as a path to talk about these things. It's the conversation that matters, not the specific questions. If you think there is something interesting in dismantling/critizing the questions, for example, have at it!
> 
> ...


Yeah, that works I think! The reason I bring this up, is because I tend to view ethics, and act as if ethics, are objective and universal. I think they _could_ be, and we have perhaps merely thus far missed the language necessary to prove it - but beyond analyzing specific moral questions according to specific, situational moral rules (e.g. "if we hold tolerance to be the good, is making Pride Month mandatory in accordance with our values?"), I don't think I can say much more with confidence. I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be an ethical nihilist (seems like a self-detonating position; surely, asserting  no moral value is itself an assertion of moral value?) nor even a relativist (is it even POSSIBLE to be truly and consistently relativist?  Consistent relativism would naturally entail recognizing the equal [universal] value of competing ethical systems, possibly pointing towards the need for some kind of higher-order libertarian ethics that might mediate between incompatible ethical systems; yet _everyone_ puts competing ethical systems into hierarchies of value, and in my experience, self-described "relativists" tend to do so more readily and more eagerly than anyone else!), but I can't _prove_ that ethics are universal, and ultimately I may have to defer to better men like Wittgenstein, who if I understand the literature correctly, eventually came to the conclusion that ethical pronouncements are nonsensical (in a logical positivist sense; that isn't to say they are gibberish or anything, but rather, they are something which cannot be properly, logically analyzed).

*tl;dr* I guess maybe I'm an ethical Poppernian...? i.e. I'll follow various universal ethical precepts - the soundness of which I cannot prove deductively - and I will act _as if_ they were true, unless and until they can be shown to be in error.

As for the questions


> What do you hold to be moral which is not universal? And what is universally moral, yet not to you?


I can't be sure what is universal and what is not, so I guess I can't really answer this - if relativism or nihilism were true, for example, then most of the things I hold to be moral would not be universal. Naturally!

And I'm not sure it's _possible_ to have something be "universally moral, yet not to me" - the set of things which are universal would surely include the set of things which are me, right? Although I do know some people who are very (I guess for lack of a better term) _fedora-Nietzschean_, who might assert a Will to Power which raises them above "universal" moral axioms. And, again - I touched on this a bit above, but I think one of the issues with relativism ("relativism") in practice, is that this _universal level_ of ethics which relativism leads to ("ethical systems are relative to the individual/culture; yours is neither more nor less valid than anyone else's") tends to get passed over in practice, as relativists gain social authority and arbitrarily crush out ethical systems that they themselves must concede are no less worthy than their own.

I'll try my hand at answering your OP questions in a little bit. Apologizes ahead of time if it gets autistic or if I make any obvious errors in reasoning (ethics is not really a field I'm well-versed in).


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## Billy Beer (Jun 2, 2021)

My gut feeling, backed up by real world experience and believing in better. Its often hard and isolating to have the morals and world view that I do IRL, luckily one of my beliefs is that 'Anything given for free is worthless, anything earned by hardship is priceless'


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## Gig Bucking Fun (Jun 2, 2021)




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## Solid Snek (Jun 2, 2021)

So, still thinking of answering the questions, but I noticed a few earlier responses and thought I'd butt in to for a minute:



Lame Entropy said:


> I'm honestly more disappointed over the eddas being rewritten by scholars to fit a Christian model


Not to be That Guy, but do you have any citations to back this up?

I myself used to believe in the "Christian retcon" hypothesis - since that's what people told me, and it made sense in my head that Christians would rewrite the Eddas - but I'm actually not sure this is a view that scholars and academics who specialize in Norse literature accept. For example, I know that no less an authority than Jackson Crawford has argued that the Eddas were not rewritten to fit a Christian model, but on the contrary, were likely mostly faithful to the original sources.






Granted, Crawford isn't the only person in the field - he's just the most reliable one I know of who speaks English. And I think the webmaster for... "Norse Mythology for Smart People" (? think that's the site, forget his name) is a Christian retconnivist. However, my understanding is he's kind of fringe; at the very least, he is not as reliable a source on historical and linguistic contexts as Crawford is.



Lemmingwise said:


> It was his diary about how sex magick requires raping children that may make him a little less reasonable.


Did Lavey endorse shmild rape for the purposes of sex magick? I know this is a charge that's been leveled at Crowley, but I've also heard from some Theosophists that this stuff was either a misattribution, a misunderstanding, or even a complete fabrication.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and frankly I'd be shocked if it WASN'T true, but if anyone has a specific source or citation I could check - either Crowley or Lavey or some other weirdo like that - where they endorse loli sex magicking, it'd be interesting to file away.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 2, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> Did Lavey endorse shmild rape for the purposes of sex magick? I know this is a charge that's been leveled at Crowley, but I've also heard from some Theosophists that this stuff was either a misattribution, a misunderstanding, or even a complete fabrication.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong, but if anyone has a specific source or citation I could check - either Crowley or Lavey or some other weirdo like that - where they endorse loli sex magicking, it'd be interesting to file away.


You can't really expect those engaged in the occult and esoteric practices to leave and spread written confessions of their crimes. But by the standard of proof you're requiring, written endorsement....


Let's take LaVey's satanic bible. It gives considerable indication, if read carefully.

First it says to never engage in a sex act with an unwilling person in the sex chapter. Yet later in the chapter on sexual rituals it instructs to do them with a willing person or someone who deserves it.

It speaks about how children are sexual from birth and should never be prevented from sexual activity.

Also despite it's early chapter denying human sacrifice, it has a later chapter on the value of human sacrifice and how it's not blood, but being in the death throes that lends its power.

As you can see, it contradicts itself constantly, which is unsurprising for worshippers of the great deceiver.


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## Solid Snek (Jun 2, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I am curious where people's morality derives from, if you observe any _knowingly_.
> 
> I find that nobody is immune from acting as moral agents, even nihilists or hedonists can be observed doing things or holding beliefs that seem to be more for moral reasons than pure selfishness.
> 
> ...


So, again, I'm just going to try and answer this according to my own system of ethics, which, as per my response above, I cannot prove to be universal.



Spoiler: 1 - 5



1. I think maybe I'm a deontological virtue ethicist. I guess...? Two things:
First, the most virtuous endeavor a person can do is to act in accordance with a categorical imperative - to act according to a necessary, rationally-derived, ethical rule. What exactly _constitutes_ a categorical imperative is, again, not something I can prove deductively. However, I think that we can derive certain imperative rules from first principals (e.g. the importance of defending and maintaining free speech, which as per Hume, Popper, et al., derives from the recognition of our imperfect knowledge), which leads me to

Two, the pursuit of knowledge (or wisdom, or gnosis, or logos, or whatever you want to call it. _Truth_ maybe?) is probably the highest good (beyond even pleasure), and possibly even an intrinsic good. I do like hedonism, and I think hedonism is as good a place as any to depart from when making general inquiries about ethics, but ultimately knowledge is more valuable than happiness (especially if, as the Greeks maintained, "true happiness" is only that which derives from wisdom). At the bare minimum, gnosis would be that which points us towards the imperatives against which we must act; without gnosis, we can have no ethics.

2. Hypocrisy. That is to say, wilfully going against ethical precepts you hold to be true, without either refuting or at least rejecting those precepts (at least, when you hold yourself to be a moral agent). Hypocrisy by way of ignorance is bad, too (e.g. the moral relativst who acts as a moral absolutist, simply because he's nto bright enough to see the contradiction), but deliberate hypocrisy on the part of people who _do_ know better is worse.

I don't know if I'd say that's "sinful", necessarily, since that word carries certain religious connotations I don't adhere to. But I don't know if there's a better word (I've got problems with "problematic" and I think "toxic" is ironically more toxic than "sinful" is) so let's just stick with sinful!

3. Not as much as I should! I'm in the habit of playing Devil's Advocate, so in those cases where I'm called upon to, say, make an argument, or defend a position, I think I_ usually_ tend to examine "my" position, which often involves some sort of ethical dimension. However, as I'm getting older (and thus more confident in my ways), and I'm spending more time isolated in my dingy seaside house (shitposting online), I think the frequency with which I examine the morality of my actions has slipped. Maybe a couple times a week? Possibly more, but probably less.

4. a. and b. God, I don't know. That's a really broad question, don't you think? It's like, HEY, Snek? Why don't you just sum up a lifetime of epistemology in a Kiwifarms thread?

I mean, clearly, it's both, right? I've been influenced by authorities, AND I'd run through my own process of reasoning. Now, that process of reasoning was itself influenced by authorities, who maybe encouraged me to reason on my own - but my decision to read and accept the arguments of these authorities in the first place was done under my own initiative.

I don't know. It's one of these chicken-or-egg, Free Will versus Determinism kind of things, right? This may be vanity, but I'd like to say it was mostly me (or at least, me doing the choosing between all the influences and arguments I've heard), but if it's true that my ethics can be derived from logically-consistent principles, then I guess the ultimate authority here would be "logic", or "reality". "Reason" maybe (although I actually think I prefer empiricism to reason).

As for human authorities? Probably things like my parents, teachers I've had, authors I really liked. Also some negative authorities, too: authorities who rubbed me the wrong way, and got me primed to DISAGREE with them, such as that one teacher who yelled at me in fifth grade for playing soldier at recess, even though she'd just lectured us about the evils of the Second Amendment. ngl, I am not above holding petty grudges, although I'd like to think that it all eventually evens out thanks to sound epistemological methodology (I've had people I LIKE that I nevertheless wind up disagreeing with later, such as Dawkins and, horribly, Stephen Jay Gould)

5. Possibly the moment I realized I was an anarcho-libertarian? I've always really been like that, but being raised in a society like mine, I always just assumed I was progressive by default; realizing I wasn't, and that was OK, was a great weight off my shoulders. Freed me from a lot of second-guessing and fears of social unacceptability - so, while it's kind of a SMALL thing when measured against everything else in my life, it's at least _one of the_ watershed moments that helped me come to terms with my aims and responsibilities as a moral agent.





Spoiler: 6 - 10



6a. and b. Yes, of course! I am only one man, and while I'll concede that I'm pretty clever, I am not the brightest by far, and even less close to being the best-read.

While I wouldn't say I "trust" a person "with better views" _implicitly  _- that is to say, I won't just a valid authority's word for it when they say something is or is not moral - I am certainly willing to stop and examine my beliefs quite carefully when a superior moral agent to me presents an argument that contradicts my own beliefs. For example, I had a professor once who spoke with me after class, having disagreed with me re: the validity of the "social contract" theory. Ultimately, I think she was wrong (and I hope I persuaded her!) - but I stayed up for like three days in an autistic stupor because of it. As the Bible says, "there is nothing new under the sun"; every question I have ever asked has been examined by SOMEONE out there already, and it would be a incredibly stupid and hubristic mistake not to avail ourselves of these better educated sources.

7 a. Yes, with a BUT - as I am mostly concerned about ethical methodology (skepticism, consistency, openness, etc), rather than exact ethical proscriptions, I think someone could follow "my ethics" and arrive at very different conclusions as to what actions are ethical and what are not. Moreover, while I'd certainly like to _persuade_ people to come over to my way of thinking, I can't really force anyone to, and wouldn't want to even if I could.

b. No.

8. Yeah, sometimes. I tend to be pretty pigheaded and outspoken when I feel a cause is just; even to my detriment. For better or worse, my parents were the same way, and while I won't bore you with any anecdotes, it's even got me_ fired_ in the past. The fact that I can lose myself in the moment and just go all-in on a bit of what I consider to be justice or sound ethics isn't really a surprise, but the times it becomes necessary do tend to creep up on me, and leave me wondering what the hell I was thinking afterwards.

9. Cancel culture. Although the degree to which that's "popular" (versus to which that's being magnified by those in positions of power) is, I think, very much up for debate.

There's plenty of other things, too, but that's the first one that comes to mind.

10. Piracy. This was actually one of those things I did a complete 180 on; originally I was an amoral apathetic in regards to digital copyright law (when I was a kid, I thought it was bad, but whaaateeeeever maaaan) although I've since become convinced that contemporary copyright is a philosophically and ethically bankrupt system, with no valid basis whatsoever. You stick me in a room with my 11yo Napster downloading self, and blood will be shed.

Again, plenty of other things, too, but I'm not falling for a glowpost again, so I'll just give you that one for now.






Lemmingwise said:


> You can't really expect those engaged in the occult and esoteric practices to leave and spread written confessions of their crimes. But by the standard of proof you're requiring, written endorsement....
> 
> 
> Let's take LaVey's satanic bible. It gives considerable indication, if read carefully.
> ...


Ah, OK, fair enough. Sounds similar to the Crowley stuff, too, and I think we can be fairly confident, on inductive grounds, that "Levey" was pro-shmild shmolestation, from the red bit if nothing else. (I'm certainly not going to ask you to _prove conclusively_ that he was raping kiddos! Simply establishing that he endorsed it is sufficient.)

-edit- so, just did a quick search through the Satanic Bible for the term "child". Only thing I found of relevance was

_To illustrate the undebatable fact that masturbation is an entirely normal and healthy practice: it is performed by all  members of  the animal  kingdom. Human children will  also follow their instictive masturbatory  desires,  unless  they  have  been  scolded  for  it  by  their  indignant  parents,  who  were undoubtably berated for it by their parents, and so on down the retrocedent line. _​_It is  unfortunate,  but true,  that the  sexual  guilts  of  parents  will  immutably  be  passed  on  to  their children.  In   order  to  save  our  children   from   the  ill-fated   sexual   destiny   of   our   parents, grandparents,  and  possibly  ourselves,  the  perverted  moral  code  of  the  past  must  be  exposed  for what  it  is:  a  pragmatically  organized  set  of  rules  which,  if  rigidly  obeyed,  would  destroy  us! Unless  we  emancipate  ourselves  from  the  ridiculous  sexual  standards  of  our  present  society, including  the  so-called  sexual  revolution,  the  neuroses  caused  by  those  stifling  regulations  will persist. Adherence to the sensible and humanistic new morality of Satanism can - and will - evolve society   in   which   our   children   can   grow   up   healthy   and   without   the   devastating   moral encumbrances of our existing sick society. _(LeVay, 40)​
In fairness to LeVay, that's more about teaching kids to jerk it than it is about using kids in sex magick (in contrast, there's at least two parts where specifically he warns against using kids for sex magick). And it's interesting, too, because hasn't there been a lot of political sperging recently about schools teaching masturbation? Like that Church of Satan FOR KIDS stuff that got popular several years back, then the various kerfluffles about Drag Queen Story Hour, and now these (apparently unaffiliated?) courses in public schools...?

I mean, I grew up in the 90s, and I remember we were all encouraged to view fundies as crazy kooks (even as we were encouraged to explore things like Satanism). But I really don't see how _anyone_ can miss this stuff now, or how mainstream it's become.

Something something, revelation of the method, something something, hiding in plain sight. Not sure if Houdini would be proud, or aghast...


----------



## Stoneheart (Jun 2, 2021)

i took a bunch of drugs in my early 20s, my moral compass is what my mush brain could pieced together from my upbringing...


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 3, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> In fairness to LeVay, that's more about teaching kids to jerk it than it is about using kids in sex magick (in contrast, there's at least two parts where specifically he warns against using kids for sex magick). And it's interesting, too, because hasn't there been a lot of political sperging recently about schools teaching masturbation? Like that Church of Satan FOR KIDS stuff that got popular several years back, then the various kerfluffles about Drag Queen Story Hour, and now these (apparently unaffiliated?) courses in public schools...?
> 
> I mean, I grew up in the 90s, and I remember we were all encouraged to view fundies as crazy kooks (even as we were encouraged to explore things like Satanism). But I really don't see how _anyone_ can miss this stuff now, or how mainstream it's become.
> 
> Something something, revelation of the method, something something, hiding in plain sight. Not sure if Houdini would be proud, or aghast...


Supposedly the sex magick details were in his diary. The diary that Kinsey got after Anton's death. Kinsey that had already published work with measuring how long it takes for children ages 1-10 to achieve orgasm and arguing that even of they were crying they gained from the experience because they had orgasm. Kinsey then went on to inspire Hefner to start playboy, which contained thousands of images of child pornography over the years (as proven in court in the netherlands playboy vs. Reisner).

I really liked your question because I had to reasses my certainty. I still consider it likely due to all the people clustering together and the various things they were involved with, including kenneth anger. But it forces me to concede (to myself) I don't have conclusive evidence.



Solid Snek said:


> Not sure if Houdini would be proud, or aghast...


Why do you say that? Did he have something to do with the phrase "hiding in plain sight"? Or did you see that he was one of the thirty people or so who were acknowledged for the satanic bible?

Ps. There are a couple of your questions that I still want to answer, but I need time to mull them over.


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## mr.moon1488 (Jun 3, 2021)

1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?

Help others do the right thing.

2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?

Corrupt people.

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?

Before and after each action.

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?

Christianity.

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?

Yes and no.  Everyone forms and is ultimately responsible for their own opinions, but those are always shaped by the world around them.  I don't think there was really a singular moment, but rather the slow realization that I was being corrupted by the world around me along with everyone else.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?

No.  I can't even fully trust myself on moral issues, and I'm obviously a known element to myself, so it would be foolish to trust someone else that I can only make assumptions about.

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?

a. Everyone wants this, they just would like for others to follow an idealized version of their moral view.

b. Depends.  If it's someone I can help to come around then I don't want to push them away.  If it's someone I think is just going to bring me down I cut them loose.

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?

Maybe.  I'm surprised at how much more pragmatic I've gotten with age.

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?

Lol, it's 2021.  It would be easier to list off the ones which aren't immoral.

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?

Sexism.  Men and women are different and have their rightful places in society.


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## Lame Entropy (Jun 3, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> Not to be That Guy, but do you have any citations to back this up?
> 
> I myself used to believe in the "Christian retcon" hypothesis - since that's what people told me, and it made sense in my head that Christians would rewrite the Eddas - but I'm actually not sure this is a view that scholars and academics who specialize in Norse literature accept. For example, I know that no less an authority than Jackson Crawford has argued that the Eddas were not rewritten to fit a Christian model, but on the contrary, were likely mostly faithful to the original sources.


I'll have to get back to you after going through my computer to find what I was reading. I definitely could be wrong though!


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 3, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, and frankly I'd be shocked if it WASN'T true, but if anyone has a specific source or citation I could check - either Crowley or Lavey or some other weirdo like that - where they endorse loli sex magicking, it'd be interesting to file away.


Hey going through your old message again, I see you asked for evidence for either Lavey or Crowley. I thought you just asked about Lavey.

In any case, their rituals are connected to the kidwelly sex cult in Wales as well as various groups in US during the so-called "satanic panic". It should really be called "the satanic coverup", if you read into these things such as the finders and the various events. I don't think the official narrative works. I don't think this narrative can survive a careful read of the related events and testimonies.

It's also worth pointing out that it's a matter of public record that Crowley for years practices pederasty with boys in Algeria. I might not be able to have writing of him endorsing child rape, he did engage in it.


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## Solid Snek (Jun 3, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> Supposedly the sex magick details were in his diary. The diary that Kinsey got after Anton's death. Kinsey that had already published work with measuring how long it takes for children ages 1-10 to achieve orgasm and arguing that even of they were crying they gained from the experience because they had orgasm. Kinsey then went on to inspire Hefner to start playboy, which contained thousands of images of child pornography over the years (as proven in court in the netherlands playboy vs. Reisner).
> 
> I really liked your question because I had to reasses my certainty. I still consider it likely due to all the people clustering together and the various things they were involved with, including kenneth anger. But it forces me to concede (to myself) I don't have conclusive evidence.


Yeah, sure, if you find anything let me know! It could very well be true (I'd be surprised if it wasn't), but without a reliable citation it's just hearsay, and it's easy for people to deny.





Lemmingwise said:


> Why do you say that? Did he have something to do with the phrase "hiding in plain sight"? Or did you see that he was one of the thirty people or so who were acknowledged for the satanic bible?
> 
> Ps. There are a couple of your questions that I still want to answer, but I need time to mull them over.


Just as a general commentary on magic and the power of misdirection. Magic isn't really a subject I'm that knowledgeable about, but from what I understand, Houdini was one of the first people to demystify magic; expressly identify magic as a system of boldly bullshitting, in just such a way, that audiences will simply go along in whatever direction you want them to (even if you "show" them precisely how the trick is being performed*). My understanding is also that Houdini was one of the first "skeptics" - i.e. anti-magick magicians, who were rooted in rationalism and opposed to many of the more far-out mystical beliefs of spiritualists and the hardcore occult (at the very least, this is something James Randi has proposed).

I can't _prove_ Houdini would view LeVay as a professional rival, woke malcontent, or maybe even as a lolcow, but my headcanon says he would.

Plus, the idea that Luciferians could exist in a civilization one generation removed from staunch Christianity, _openly_ pushing CoS fap education in public schools, and everyone just kind of shrugs their shoulders about it, is actually kind of amazing.


* One of my favorite examples of this principle in action:




You can see _exactly_ how they're doing it, but they're still directing you at their leisure, and it's still basically impossible to follow what's happening until it's all over.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 3, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> * One of my favorite examples of this principle in action:


Yeah, I'm familiar with it; but it's still nice to hear you describe it with more structure than  I would be able to in regards to magic. Derren Brown has a similar style.



Solid Snek said:


> it's still basically impossible to follow



If you've studied magic more (can I admit anything more shameful?), the first one isn't impossible to follow either. No F U reward for them, they did not fool me.


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## Solid Snek (Jun 3, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> Yeah, I'm familiar with it; but it's still nice to hear you describe it with more structure than  I would be able to in regards to magic. Derren Brown has a similar style.
> 
> 
> 
> If you've studied magic more (can I admit anything more shameful?), the first one isn't impossible to follow either. No F U reward for them, they did not fool me.


Oh, sure sure, if you'e a magician, then I'd fully expect YOU to know how a cup and ball trick works! But for normies - the general audience, the "sleepers" if you will - even with the clear cups it's impossible to follow. Penn's saying all this shit, and you're trying to drink it all in, but you don't know where to look, and stuff just appears, and HOLY CRAP WHY IS THERE A BASEBALL NOW?

To bring this back to your initial question re: moral systems and sources of authority, I'd actually have to say that - while I probably come off as quite critical of LeVay et al., I'd actually consider _myself_ to be a Luciferian, too (in the ethical and philosophical sense, at any rate! I don't worship demons or believe in devil's or anything; I simply mean that I resonate with the Luciferian ideal of the pursuit of knowledge and individual potential, even when proscribed by authorities). I certainly have a lot of Luciferian values, e.g. my belief that knowledge or gnosis is the highest good, to which even happiness is subordinate. And as above, I cannot really say to what degree this was me, and to what degree this was  the social influences of Luciferian media and literature that I consumed over the years (certainly, I think the role of Luciferian attitudes in shaping postmodern culture is wildly underappreciated, and while I don't think I would go so far as to say the Satanic Panic was a coverup, I think that, as with the "Red Scare" and "Witch Hunt" myths, there was more to that period than court histories would want us to believe)

My biggest issue with Luciferianism as practice, is actually less to do with Luciferianism itself, and more with "occult" attitudes in general - specifically, with the idea that "The Light" (knowledge) is an initiatory Mystery that needs to be concealed from the masses and only made accessible, in stages, to those people deemed worthy. All too often, I think, intellectuals who find themselves ethically aligned with "Luciferianism" endorse practices like censorship, lying, and social control. Maybe it would be better to simply call myself a _Promethean_? Since Prometheus did not leave the Fire on Olympus so only the Gods could partake of it, but rather seized the Fire from Olympus and brought it to Man - which is far more laudible than the more common, Christian vision of Lucifer (Satan), who simply embraced the Fire in hopes of becoming himself God.


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## Noir drag freak (Jun 3, 2021)

I want to say that I really don't care for morality in the Abrahamic religious sense. But I am a hypocrite to some degree.



Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?



I think that the most virtuous endeavor is to sacrifice themselves to a high ideal. The second would be to face the whole truth without any bias. To be truthful about one's actions.   Don't do anything that would make you lose respect for yourself or anybody.



> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?



To lie or deny reality. But I think that an inability to act is sinful.  



> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?



About half of the time. 



> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?



I think that most of my opinions on morality were form through books, fiction and non-fiction.  I grow up in a Christian environment so that has some minor influences, but not a major one. 



> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?



I think there been a couple of defining moments.  One was the pastor preaching about abstinence,  but fired a week later for having an affair with a female member of his church.  Second was watching a homosexual man who  let his wife live a lie for 25 years. 



> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?



I don't know. I just tend to test and research. So I tend to learn from anyone and anybody.  I don't have to agree, but I do have to grow in some way.



> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?



NO.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 3, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> , I'd actually consider _myself_ to be a Luciferian, too (in the ethical and philosophical sense, at any rate! I don't worship demons or believe in devil's or anything; I simply mean that I resonate with the Luciferian ideal of the pursuit of knowledge and individual potential, even when proscribed by authorities)


I don't think this really is the case to be honest, in the same way that people that genuinely care about equality make poor feminists. Again, it's what it says in the brochure, not what it _is_.

The comparison to magician and magic tricks is actually very apt. I think maybe cults and the occult and esoteric practices are much clearer to decypher after considerable study/experience with some.

Luciferian's adopted rationalism the way christian rock adopted rock. They may use its language, its memes, its mystique and its glamour but it's only a means to an end; the christian rock version is typically less succesful because they appropriate it less cynically/psychopathically. They want the rock itself to be christian. Conversely satanic cults (and other destructive cults) don't mind lying openly and leaving the appropriated culture intact, because their methods for influence and control come later and they are unhampered by conscience in persuing it. They too "do what they will".



Solid Snek said:


> All too often, I think, intellectuals who find themselves ethically aligned with "Luciferianism" endorse practices like censorship, lying, and social control. Maybe it would be better to simply call myself a _Promethean_? Since Prometheus did not leave the Fire on Olympus so only the Gods could partake of it, but rather seized the Fire from Olympus and brought it to Man - which is far more laudible than the more common, Christian vision of Lucifer (Satan), who simply embraced the Fire in hopes of becoming himself God.


It's an interesting thought to be sure, Promethean. Personally I consider all such denotions vanity titles (not that I never engage in them), as the meaning in such terms is much more about the tent and the people in that tent than any one particular person or his thoughts/beliefs.

Pardon me if I decry such kind of individualism, even if you seem to have made an accurate point.

What continues to resonate between your posts and my thoughts is that sense of valuing knowledge. And I suppose the sharing of it.

It's also interesting that someone earlier in this thread called such behaviour sinful:



BlamoPlasmo said:


> Just giving all your "influence" away for no reason.


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## Carlos Weston Chantor (Jun 3, 2021)

I adhere to the Law of God and spit on all man-made laws



> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


What Jesus did



> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


Despair, thinking you are beyond God's ability to save you, all the worst sins come from that



> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


Couple of times a day



> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


Derived from the authority of God



> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


If I was forming my own moral opinion I would be a pig wallowing in my own filth



> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?


Many people, I am a sinner and a bad person, a lot of people are much better than me



> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


People will do what God wants, I don't remove people who don't do what God wants from my life because we are all sinners, unless they are hostile to me



> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


No



> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Disrespecting your parents



> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


Dueling, killing of witches and other profligates, war (including taking of slaves, mass executions etc.), bride kidnapping, arranged marriages, drunk driving, producing and distributing cocaine, tax evasion, statutory rape etc etc


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 3, 2021)

Noir drag freak said:


> I am a hypocrite to some degree


Aren't we all?

Just curious. In a recent post in another thread you said you hated straigtht men. Do you consider that virtuous? Sinful? A quirk? Just wondering why someone would hate the default on anything. And whether it's more an emotional response or chosen morality.

There's things that I hold in strong contempt for example, but typically this was a choice, due to it being objectively deeply immoral.


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## Fek (Jun 3, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> objectively deeply immoral


Perfect bait for philosophy majors. A+. 10/10.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 3, 2021)

Fek said:


> Perfect bait for philosophy majors. A+. 10/10.


Not fucking bait, it's me iconoclasticly shouting from my soapbox at the ivory towers. I'm fucking right too.


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## A Gay Retard (Jun 3, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Self-sacrifice for an objectively noble purpose.


Lemmingwise said:


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


True, sadistic cruelty.


Lemmingwise said:


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


I don't know if it's something I'm consciously considering at all times.


Lemmingwise said:


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


A little bit of everything. Heavy Protestantism; profound crisis leading to a misinterpretation of Nietzsche; a more accurate interpretation of Schopenhauer; the worldview of people who came to my aid when I needed it.

I also think there's an inborn, gut-feeling moral compass observable across cultures and through millennia. The Noahide Laws and 10 Commandments cover a lot of it.


Lemmingwise said:


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


My prayers going unanswered when I needed help the most. That and almost dying several times.


Lemmingwise said:


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?


I'm sure there are people who are equally correct.


Lemmingwise said:


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view?


Yes.


Lemmingwise said:


> 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


I'm less inclined to want to spend time with them.


Lemmingwise said:


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


For a long time I was fine rationalizing my own awful conduct as necessary or as evening a score that needed correcting. I try to do less of that these days.


Lemmingwise said:


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Hitting children to discipline them. Abortion in general but especially reprehensible after week 10-12.


Lemmingwise said:


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


Certain forms of lying.


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## FEETLOAF (Jun 3, 2021)

> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Thinking. The "likeness" that we share with God is mental, not physical. We are self aware and capable of conscious thought. We are defined by this unique ability, and exist to use it. God is an unconscious uniform monadic being which necessarily precludes perspective or knowledge of self. God created mankind to understand the universe for him, so that he can ultimately know himself.


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


Not thinking.


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


1 Thessalonians 5:17: "Pray without ceasing."
I examine the morality of everything.


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


Scripture, Reason, and Revelation form a triad of informed dogma. No church has everything right, but the church is not without value either.


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


Doing huge amounts of psychoactive drugs.


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?


No. See #1. It is borderline immoral to trust anyone to have a better view of anything than you. You have a duty to think about things yourself.


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


Of course. If I didn't think my moral view was objectively correct it wouldn't be my view. If I think it's objectively correct, why wouldn't I want everyone to follow it?


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


No.


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


The obvious answer is cooming but idol worship is also ubiquitous in modern society.


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


Hate.


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## Noir drag freak (Jun 3, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> Aren't we all?
> 
> Just curious. In a recent post in another thread you said you hated straigtht men. Do you consider that virtuous? Sinful? A quirk? Just wondering why someone would hate the default on anything. And whether it's more an emotional response or chosen morality.
> 
> There's things that I hold in strong contempt for example, but typically this was a choice, due to it being objectively deeply immoral.



First off, I think that morality is an ideal that is aspiration. My comments were more of an emotional response so I wasn't trying to make a moral claim. Hatred is "wrong", but people tend to hate a group of people due to pass experiences.  I don't hate the concept of heterosexuality or the act of heterosexual sex. I hate how straight guys treated me growing up.  I don't hate individual straight guys, because some of my friends are straight. But I like to project all of my negative feelings onto heterosexual men. Sorta of like how racists tend to hate a group as concept, but can love an individual.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 4, 2021)

Noir drag freak said:


> First off, I think that morality is an ideal that is aspiration. My comments were more of an emotional response so I wasn't trying to make a moral claim. Hatred is "wrong", but people tend to hate a group of people due to pass experiences.  I don't hate the concept of heterosexuality or the act of heterosexual sex. I hate how straight guys treated me growing up.  I don't hate individual straight guys, because some of my friends are straight. But I like to project all of my negative feelings onto heterosexual men. Sorta of like how racists tend to hate a group as concept, but can love an individual.


Thanks for explaining.

I think I would fall into the category "racist" for most people, but insofar as I am it is a chosen and even aspirational point of view. If I did find myself projecting, it would be the first thing I would want to curtail in myself.

But then people always tell me I'm hard on myself so maybe I overdo it.


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## Old Sun World (Jun 6, 2021)

> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Follow their heart in all things.


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


Allow the mind to dictate your behavior.


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


Never. I know that my actions are always moral because I wouldn't do anything that's immoral.


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


It was a long journey and I have forgotten most of the people who have helped me come to my current understanding of the world and self, I think there is truth to everything and everyone. 


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


I started to believe in God again after over a decade of atheism once I killed a man in self defense during my time in the military, I did it because that was the right thing to do and it changed the way I perceive the world forever.


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?


No. How can someone be better than anyone else? We are all parts of the same whole.


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


No, each person should follow their own heart and walk the path that forms from their own destinies. And no, I don't remove people from my life for their moral choices because I don't associate with degenerates in the first place. But I would remove them if they magically started being degenerates.


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


When I did what was expected of me I was surprised at the lengths I would go to confirm other's expectations of me. Later I realized that I was being manipulated and so I stopped following the footsteps of others and decided to forge my own way through life.


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Inversion of all things. When all that is good becomes bad and all that is bad becomes good, that's hell.


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


Discrimination. People shouldn't be treated equally.


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## Solid Snek (Jun 6, 2021)

Lemmingwise said:


> I don't think this really is the case to be honest, in the same way that people that genuinely care about equality make poor feminists. Again, it's what it says in the brochure, not what it _is_.   ...  They too "do what they will".



I'd agree with that. That's something I've noticed, too, especially with the "fedora Satanists": they embrace the idea of "Do As Thou Will", but with the caveat that this kind of freedom is really only for them, not for everyone else.






> It's an interesting thought to be sure, Promethean. Personally I consider all such denotions vanity titles (not that I never engage in them), as the meaning in such terms is much more about the tent and the people in that tent than any one particular person or his thoughts/beliefs.
> 
> Pardon me if I decry such kind of individualism, even if you seem to have made an accurate point.


Yeah, I don't really like labels either - not because it's vanity, but because I think labels encourage ad hominem, and make it

first, difficult for outside observers to get a handle on what the labelled individual _actually_ believes, and
second, harder for the individual who internalizes the label, to think and reason independently.
But sometimes labels are useful, I think. For example, it's a lot easier to tell people I'm "a libertarian" than to tell them I'm "an anarcho-voluntarist", and it's a lot easier to tell people that I'm "an anarcho-voluntarist" than it is to spend thirty minutes explaining what the hell anarcho-voluntarism _even means. _The trick is both knowing when and where to use labels, and also training yourself in mindfulness, sound epistemology, and critical thinking, so you can approach "labeled ideas" in a fair, intelligent, and rational way (this is actually a point where I think I'd intersect with PC/SJW types - the utility of "neutral and unbiased language" - although I disagree on their methodology, I think their motives are downright evil, and I'd argue that (as with your feminist/equality and our earlier occultist/Luciferean examples, they don't actually adhere to the idea they espouse)



> What continues to resonate between your posts and my thoughts is that sense of valuing knowledge. And I suppose the sharing of it.
> 
> It's also interesting that someone earlier in this thread called such behaviour sinful:





BlamoPlasmo said:


> Just giving all your "influence" away for no reason.


I'm not sure I understand what BlamoPlasmo means by "influence"...? If "influence" is knowledge (or perhaps more accurately, _the capacity to acquire sound knowledge_) then yeah, perhaps BlamoPlasmo would think my ethics are sinful. He certainly wouldn't be the first! Most people, in most times throughout the recorded history of human civlization, have felt that the pursuit of gnosis is dangerous, deviant, and hubristic (hence why Prometheus and Lucifer were, prior to the late Modern period, viewed as "the bad guys" in cultural stories).

BUT. In my defense, I would argue that giving away the capacity to acquire sound knowledge / gnosis is NOT being done "for no reason". On the contrary, I'd do it

because I feel it is the ethical thing to do.
because I cannot claim to hold truths about the world with absolute certainty, I think the most utilitarian course of action is to free other people, so that they can "check my work" (so to speak). i.e. a society of people with equal access to gnosis, is a society of people who can peer review one another, and (ultimately) correct any mistakes that arise from individual errors in reasoning.


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## Blamo (Jun 7, 2021)

Solid Snek said:


> I'm not sure I understand what BlamoPlasmo means by "influence"...?


Basically the ability to affect the world around you. Everybody and everything have their sphere of influence, if you don't maintain it and use it somebody else will move in to fill the vacuum.


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## DeAtH (Jun 7, 2021)

(This is actually quite a stereotypical view, not really sure but this is how I see most things)
1-2. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?
Someone who will be honest with their dream even if they were to be outcasted for it. Its more about your actions and "how you explain it to others" rather than "doing it in a non truthful way that is formed by hypocrisy and lies." Think about it like this, If I were to act how others think, would that be morally wrong? I would just be doing that so I can gain their approval and gain more power/status but I would rather do things my way and be real with people (That is how more individuals should be, in my eyes)

3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?
To be truly human, I think every human must question themselves everyday even if it gives them pain or sadness. You must always try and think about what you want and what you should think about what others want (If you are the empathetic type)

4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?
The authority that someone has should derive from the person's mind. The authority should come from you and why you think in your own way. You can have your own versions of alluded concepts/power, it really doesn't matter such as various deities/ideologies/viewpoints but they are all connected in one way or another. (So I would choose morality simply because your morality forms your own version of an authority figure)

5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?
This is quite self explanatory, but the biggest factors that play in this are the greatest moment in your life (People who care about you and how they do not judge you) and then, there's the other pinnacle factor that plays a lot in your life such as your worst moment in life such as (Oppression, harassments, and more from other individuals) in your life. This is the basics of it all and for me personally. Of course, I do not relate to my differences (people who think differently) but at the same time, I do. Its a never ending game, and our brains are quite relatable, therefore I do not have a exact answer for this.

6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b. Why (not)?
The only person who truly has a superior moral view, in my opinion, would be someone who is perfected in the art of actually understanding a wide array of human natures such as love, hate, sadness, and more. Those are the only ones who I truly wish to talk with because they understand life for what it is. (They know themselves the most)

7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?
Nope, not always, simply because if they did. Then this information can be used against you.

8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?
Not going to list them (Too many factors) but of course, It makes me want to protect everyone that I truly care for, even if it kills me but this way of thinking can also bring out the most unspeakable of acts if there is too much hate in the extremes. (Your life events play a vital role in this)

9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?
"Gang mentality" is the most immoral thing to do in my viewpoint. Whenever I see such things occurring, it makes me want to help the victim which is weird.

10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?
There is no good or bad, and if there are such concepts controlling this ultimatum. Then they would just be the same thing. That is the irony of it all.


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## Coomer For Hire (Jun 7, 2021)

I formed a good portion my moral framework in my teen years, starting at a position of nihilistic atheism, but realizing that purposelessness is shit (and doesn't actually exist) and I should probably define
a more systematic, yet flexible, set of morals. It's kind of complicated and it's closer to an actual framework to build sets of morals than a set of morals itself.



Spoiler: pseudo intellectual bigpost



I started with the consideration of how moral systems are formed, what is it to be conscious, the difference between what we feel and what we think, and a pseudo-evolutionary psychology approach with a bit of inspiration from Nietzsche.
I started with the idea that the subconscious, inherent purpose of a human being and all living things is to successfully pass on ones genes. Building on that, if I were to make a broader more general abstract purpose of all living things, and thereby the highest moral pursuit, it is the continuation of life in any form. This subconscious moral pursuit is probably felt on some level by all of you* , this is generally encapsulated in the idea that you'd give something to other people or living things. For instance, many of us would likely be willing to risk death or die for a sufficient number of family members (decreasing with relation, either directly familial or surrogate familial). Seeing as (I presume) all living things are tangentially related, you, regardless of whatever  (non-destructive) moral system you subscribe to*, would be willing to sacrifice yourself for a sufficient number of organisms in general, should the choice be made apparent to you (This may be more creatures than actually exist on Earth, but I don't feel like doing the math).

_*baring immoralists and omnicidal psychopaths_

I should distinguish that this is the SUBCONSCIOUS purpose, you as conscious being have the ability to overrule it with sufficient effort. In doing so, you will be fighting yourself and your own feelings, but you can. (It is, almost literally, built into you, but you can adapt around it)
Animals, however, are slaves to this subconscious compulsion, and if they do not follow it can only be described as defective, because they are not conscious.
Consciousness being the ability to manipulate abstractions/associations and thereby the ability to understand the world and recreate it as we see fit.
Given this definition of Consciousness, every person is in effect, a god, who has the power to both morally and physically make the world. (there's the Nietzsche)

Because of this consciousness, people have the ability to choose moral systems and take actions that may be for or against the fundamental morality of life (Continue life).
Understand, that this idea of "every person is a god" isn't meant to be a form of narcissistic self idolatry, what it means is that now the burden of creating a world and a life well lived is now placed firmly and solely on your shoulders with the world you are given. It is you who must decide and take the action necessary towards whatever beliefs you come to. You must take responsibility for what you create.

Each and every person will come to (at least slightly) different perceptions and moral inclinations as to what will best perpetuate life. Seeing as no one strategies is "the best" (such as we see in nature with the vast diversification of life), we each have to pursue our own way of life. Everyone has their own niche. The purpose is develop and create ourselves, our world, and our morals in the hopes of developing the most prosperous and fulfilled life we can live for who we are.

But we sabotage ourselves in many respects in pursuing this. There are many behavioral or emotional traps that we can fall into if you are not conscious of how you think and what you're doing.
For instances, the Hedonic Trap, where you believe that what you pursue and believe is best for you is what feels good at any given moment.
Or the Discomfort Trap, where you take actions that only ease your discomfort and escape your dissatisfaction rather than suffering through what you must to improve your situation (IE, cleaning your wounds)

In general, you will experience suffering in accordance to the depth of how your approach to the world conflicts with the subconscious purpose. If your actions are generally detrimental, you will suffer physically (poverty, harm, etc,). If you are conflicted morally or have a skewed sense of reality, you will suffer mentally.
Understand, that this is suffering, not pain.
To lose money or be attacked is painful. To wallow and dwell upon pain, to stagnate in it, physically and mentally, is suffering. Pain can be prolonged and inflicted by other people for periods of decades, one truly suffers when they continue to needlessly inflict it on themselves.

Thus, you'll know what is best for you by how much suffering it brings you






Lemmingwise said:


> 1. What is the most virtuous endeavor a person can do?


Take responsibility for themselves, everyone around them, and the world at large, and act to betterment of all.



Lemmingwise said:


> 2. What is the opposite, the most sinful?


The opposite, to abandon any responsibility for anything. To act (EDIT: Or simply sit by and drift) towards the destruction and suffering of all.



Lemmingwise said:


> 3. What' the frequency where you examine the morality of your actions?


Very frequently. It's a code I live by, and I try to embody it in my daily life.



Lemmingwise said:


> 4.a Did you form your own opinion on morality or did it derive from an authority? 4.b Which authority?


I formed them on my own.



Lemmingwise said:


> 5. If you did form your own opinion, what was the most defining moment in that development?


It's a generally constant development, so most of it comes from more general observations and learning. I often just sit down and think about it for a while in light of things I've seen.
For some ones that are more memorable than most, going through "The Dictator's Handbook", the Dune series, and many of Nietzches texts for the development to see the importance of individualism.
Psychedelics helped for an intense sense of connection to other people, and the idea that people will move to fit where they feel they belong. Living in harmony and friendly competition with eachother.


Lemmingwise said:


> 6a. Is there anyone you trust to have a better moral view than yourself? 6b.  Why (not)?


Depends on what you mean by better. If you're not gonna read the big essay I wrote, I generally believe people should try to develop their own morality for where they feel they belong.
if that means they choose some defined moral/religious system that already exists, then If that works for them then I see no reason why they shouldn't pursue it, so long as I get to do the same.



Lemmingwise said:


> 7a. Do you think other people should follow your moral view? 7b. Do you remove people from your life that don't?


It'd be nice, I think the world would be more accepting if they agreed with me on what I layed out, but I udnerstand that people aren't.
Generally I find society to be a competition to see what are the best moral systems and which ones best adapt to the time, and generate the least amount of suffering for that time.

As for other people who don't believe or accept my morality, I don't expect people to share mine, and I'd be a little put off if they didn't disagree.



Lemmingwise said:


> 8. Do you have any experience where you were surprised for your own sense of justice or morality?


Not really.



Lemmingwise said:


> 9. What popular activity do you consider immoral?


Social Media. Someone should nuke the fucking servers, economic damages be damned. Ironic saying this on a forum, but I don't tie this shit into my life.
I don't try to find friends or family on Joshes webzone, and I don't use it to sell my soul for woke acceptance, or as a corporate social credit score.

Social Media is a societal tumor that should be heavily changed or expunged



Lemmingwise said:


> 10. What is popularly considered immoral, but you consider moral?


Ambition. Ambition is the will to act, the attempt to order, and the fight against entropy and stagnation.
To hold a vision of the world that does not yet exist and to strive for it.
I see it as the purest expression of humanity.



Lemmingwise said:


> And yes, this going into my interpol database.


NIGGER


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