# Is the STEM push resulting in more failsons?



## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 5, 2020)

So I’ve been reading recently about ‘failure to launch’ programs, which are designed to get basement dwellers out of the basement. A lot of them struggled in college and may not have finished their degree.

Then I started thinking about how we’ve been telling kids STEM, STEM, STEM, ignoring that 1) American math education is across the board quite bad, and 2) hard science, engineering, and computer science are difficult subjects.

I met people at my university who switched from a science major that required a lot of math to one that didn’t, I’ve heard about computer related majors (like IT) being what people switch to when CS is too hard, and everyone knows about the slew of pre-meds not being able to hack organic chemistry.

So I’m wondering...is telling kids to major in STEM when they aren’t smart enough or don’t have a good enough math foundation to do so ultimately bad? Software developers make a lot of money _if they’re good at their job. _

Adding to this, there’s definitely an assumption that a young man who does nothing but game is going to go into CS (or worse, video game development).

If you disagree, what else do you think accounts for the rise of the ‘failure to launch’ young person? There’s clearly a lot of factors but I don’t think ‘bad economy’ is the only one.


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## Salubrious (Jul 5, 2020)

I've been thinking about this with the BLM movement.

One of the big arguments is that black men don't have enough opportunities to go to college.

While that CAN be true and is to an extent, that doesn't solve the biggest problem.  I can tell you from personal experience that I was constantly bullied by black men, mostly being called a sellout or one of dem smart niggas (Carlton was my personal favorite).

Creating opportunities for black men to go to college doesn't matter if you don't solve the key underlying issue that black men don't WANT to go to college; that being booksmart to large sections of the black community is a giant negative.

Same with STEM.  The big push is "we need more women in STEM; companies need more women workers, et cetera".  Do women even WANT to be in STEM?  It seems like they are trying to shove a bunch of people that don't want to be there into it and are shocked when they fail.

TL;DR - People are confusing cause and effect like usual in the name of woke points.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 5, 2020)

Salubrious said:


> I've been thinking about this with the BLM movement.
> 
> One of the big arguments is that black men don't have enough opportunities to go to college.
> 
> ...


What we need is more good jobs for people without degrees. The ‘go to college for a good job’ thing is playing musical chairs. It only works if there’s a sufficient number of people who don’t have degrees.

My issue with ‘women in STEM’ is not that women don’t want to be in STEM, they do (it’s why Smith has an engineering program despite being a liberal arts college), but that it only serves to help middle class white and Asian women, who don’t need more help. If you wanted to improve the lot of women you’d be agitating for heavily subsidized childcare, not giving Silicon Valley even more workers they can make work 70 hours a week.


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## Sperghetti (Jul 5, 2020)

I would add that it seems like we never got past the whole "you _have_ to go to college if you want a good job" mentality. 

When I was in high school at the turn of the millenium, it was just kind of an unspoken thing that if you got semi-decent grades, anything less than a 4-year college degree was beneath you. I graduated from college straight into the Great Recession, seeing constant articles about college grads only being able to find minimum-wage service jobs, how Gen Y Millenials would be the first generation to do economically worse than their parents, how we'd never pay off student loan debt... and yet, over a decade later, that "go to college" mentality hasn't actually changed. They just upgraded it to "Oh you need to get a STEM degree."

It's like nobody stopped to think they we might be pressuring _too many_ people into pursuing college degrees, when they'd probably be better off pursuing careers that involve shorter programs or trade school. Hell, those kind of jobs _need_ some smart, reliable people instead of just getting the bottom of the barrel that couldn't even really hack high school.

So I think you have a good point, it's no wonder we have so many young adults who can't get started in life when they've been pressured into thinking that their only option for being successful is to specifically get a STEM degree. I'd actually be really interested to see what the economic demographics of the families are in most of these cases.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 5, 2020)

Sperghetti said:


> I would add that it seems like we never got past the whole "you _have_ to go to college if you want a good job" mentality.
> 
> When I was in high school at the turn of the millenium, it was just kind of an unspoken thing that if you got semi-decent grades, anything less than a 4-year college degree was beneath you. I graduated from college straight into the Great Recession, seeing constant articles about college grads only being able to find minimum-wage service jobs, how Gen Y Millenials would be the first generation to do economically worse than their parents, how we'd never pay off student loan debt... and yet, over a decade later, that "go to college" mentality hasn't actually changed. They just upgraded it to "Oh you need to get a STEM degree."
> 
> ...


I want to know where they got their degree from and how long it took them to get it.

A bachelor’s degree that took you four years to get from an in state institution, leaving you with say 35k in student loans, is a good investment. A bachelor’s degree that took you four years to get from a top private school that you got good financial aid for is a great investment. A degree that takes you six or seven years...or from an expensive private or out of state college...or a for profit school? No. 

The four year graduation rate is way lower than you might think. https://www.npr.org/2019/03/13/6816...re-up-but-the-numbers-will-still-surprise-you


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## Red Hood (Jul 5, 2020)

It's bad enough that we pushed "college for everyone" on the Millenial generation (insane student debt, filling the coffers of colleges that keep jacking up their costs to take advantage of student debt, and poorly prepared people attempting to enter the workforce with garbage degrees...). A friend of mine that majored in mechanical engineering noted that there's a surplus of qualified degree holders in many STEM fields at this point. And not everyone is the best and brightest- you don't have to be just to finish your degree. They'll have an even harder time using their degree than the top of their class.

My oldest sibling is pushing their kids to go to college and I'm thinking- it's not my problem and it's not my job to help parent but PLEASE let them know there are other perfectly valid options.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 5, 2020)

you're mixing two different situations here: failing stem students, and socially alienated nerds. there is some overlap between these phenomena, but they are not the same, and they have different causes.

about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.

about the socially alienated friendless basement dwellers: this is a huge and complex topic. some of it comes down to (lack of) parenting too, similar to the other situation, but there is more at play here. these dudes tend to be very introverted and shy, very self-conscious, and come off as clunky and awkward as a result. these types obviously do not mesh well at all with modern day pop culture / youth culture which is hyper-focussed on non-stop socialisation, extremely sexualized, and 100% geared towards extroverted people. being shy/awkward/introverted in this environment makes these guys outcasts and targets for bullying almost by default, and in the age of ubiquitous social media there is literally no way to avoid or escape this once it has started, so for many the only option is to basically retreat from society entirely, resulting in hardcore alienation, with all the problems that entails.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> you're mixing two different situations here: failing stem students, and socially alienated nerds. there is some overlap between these phenomena, but they are not the same, and they have different causes.
> 
> about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
> imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.
> ...


How do you think that can be fixed? Or how can parents prevent it from happening?

I see your first scenario talked about a lot on r/college. I went to a difficult high school so it’s hard for me to grasp, but it does seem like there’s people who don’t even do the absolute bare minimum (go to class, do the homework). Professors rankle at mandatory attendance, but at the same time it seems like some people can’t handle not being explicitly told to go to class.


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## Otterly (Jul 6, 2020)

A number of factors.
 Housing is expensive and young people dont want to have a starter home, they want a ready made dream h
  Schooling isn’t educating people. Very few need pure academic paths. Most need academic/technical like medicine, engineering and technical/vocational like plumbing /hvac etc. So you end up with people getting useless degrees and no practical skill or obvious career path and no one can find a decent plumber
 There are no healthy rites Of passage any more. No national service, which would be a good thing. Not even military, just don’t something that benefits the community for a year’ but military would be good. Now all the traditional manly rites of passage are gone and masculinity is demonised. Women have kids later, so they also do t have the grounding event of a family.
People are adrift. They need purpose and direction and there aren’t the healthy outlets for it there used to be.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 6, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> How do you think that can be fixed? Or how can parents prevent it from happening?


be strict and harsh with your children and force them to develop discipline from a young age, that's the only way really.


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## In Memoriam (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> be strict and harsh with your children and force them to develop discipline from a young age, that's the only way really.


This is true but also hard. It’s human nature to protect and nurture your children and it goes against everything a parent has to make their life tough even though that is indisputably the best way to make them successful. Mandatory military service would probably help. Look at Israel - you don’t become Dear Leader’s favorite country without doing something right!


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## William Tell Underpass (Jul 6, 2020)

There's also an interesting question about the value of promoting more stem as computers become more sophisticated. Basically the 'why learn math when we have calculators' argument on steroids.









						The 10 skills you need to thrive in the Fourth Industrial Revolution
					

These are the top 10 skills you will need in the workplace in 2020.




					www.weforum.org
				






> Creativity will become one of the top three skills workers will need. With the avalanche of new products, new technologies and new ways of working, workers are going to have to become more creative in order to benefit from these changes.
> Robots may help us get to where we want to be faster, but they can’t be as creative as humans (yet).


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 6, 2020)

William Tell Underpass said:


> There's also an interesting question about the value of promoting more stem as computers become more sophisticated. Basically the 'why learn math when we have calculators' argument on steroids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


frankly, these sorts of articles are bogus and nonsense imo
the more things computers do, the more you need people developing, programming, administrating, controlling, operating those computers. 
the more jobs machines take over, the more you need engineers to design, develop, control and operate those machines.



In Memoriam said:


> This is true but also hard. It’s human nature to protect and nurture your children and it goes against everything a parent has to make their life tough even though that is indisputably the best way to make them successful. Mandatory military service would probably help. Look at Israel - you don’t become Dear Leader’s favorite country without doing something right!


military service is good, but kicks in way too late. you can't coddle a kid into growing up as a lazy shitbag and then expect the army to take over at age 18 and magically turn him into a well disciplined hard worker over the course of a year (or two)
no, this effort needs to start a good 10 years earlier than that. discipline is a habit, one that needs to be built from a very young age to properly become ingrained in a persons character.


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## Fanatical Pragmatist (Jul 6, 2020)

Salubrious said:


> The big push is "we need more women in STEM; companies need more women workers, et cetera".  Do women even WANT to be in STEM?


Depends on the "STEM". 
I've worked marine bio jobs where I've been 1 of 3 dudes in a cohort of 27 techs/workers/researchers. Whats more ironic is most of the 24 women in that group photograph will look at you and dead-face tell you that we need more wamyn in STEM.
By contrast my brother has told me engineering is a total sausage fest, but girls basically get easy pickings for internships.

The other issue, with my side of the (S) is that people think STEM = big money, so therefore we can get 65k into debt and pay it off counting sea turtle nests.


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## eternal dog mongler (Jul 6, 2020)

Sperghetti said:


> It's like nobody stopped to think they we might be pressuring _too many_ people into pursuing college degrees, when they'd probably be better off pursuing careers that involve shorter programs or trade school. Hell, those kind of jobs _need_ some smart, reliable people instead of just getting the bottom of the barrel that couldn't even really hack high school.



It honestly makes financial sense anyway.

Get your ADN, move to San Fran, make as much as I do toiling away in FL.


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## Red Hood (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> you're mixing two different situations here: failing stem students, and socially alienated nerds. there is some overlap between these phenomena, but they are not the same, and they have different causes.
> 
> about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
> imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.
> ...


I would argue the education system has something to do with it, though. I took College Prep and Advanced Placement courses in High School and didn't find them particularly challenging, but the similar level courses I took once I got to college (which were supposed to be analogous) were far more rigorous. I was able to adapt, though not without some speed bumps. I think that some of this comes from the whole "No Child Left Behind" mentality and curriculum getting dumbed down so schools can pass more students which, if I'm not mistaken is usually necessary for schools to get as much funding as possible. 

Schools would usually rather pass bad students than retain them or lose them to dropout.


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## Johan Schmidt (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> frankly, these sorts of articles are bogus and nonsense imo
> the more things computers do, the more you need people developing, programming, administrating, controlling, operating those computers.
> the more jobs machines take over, the more you need engineers to design, develop, control and operate those machines.


As an undergad starting my second year of genetics I can confirm that machines are doing loads of the grunt work. The issue is that what they are doing is producing more data than we as people can actually do anything with. I have to learn Linux, R, Python and Java to work the machines, get the data, and do anything with it. Interdisciplinary seems to be the buzzword for science as far as my course goes. I have to be a biochemist, a geneticist, a programmer and a lab tech all in one to get a job (according to my lecturers). If they cannot instill all these things into STEM students then the market for science graduates will probably explode into niche training rather than general degrees.


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## Get_your_kicks_with_30-06 (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
> imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.



This is a very big problem in college right now. High school is pretty easy and very drawn out. College semesters can be easy (unless you are in STEM where there is a wide variety of difficulty), but are very quick. This creates a problem where smart high schoolers have no concept of time management/prioritization and have a serious procrastination problem. So when they come to college where you need to learn usually more information in less than half the time you have in High school these kind of people get very overwhelmed.  



DumbDude42 said:


> about the socially alienated friendless basement dwellers: this is a huge and complex topic. some of it comes down to (lack of) parenting too, similar to the other situation, but there is more at play here. these dudes tend to be very introverted and shy, very self-conscious, and come off as clunky and awkward as a result. these types obviously do not mesh well at all with modern day pop culture / youth culture which is hyper-focussed on non-stop socialisation, extremely sexualized, and 100% geared towards extroverted people. being shy/awkward/introverted in this environment makes these guys outcasts and targets for bullying almost by default, and in the age of ubiquitous social media there is literally no way to avoid or escape this once it has started, so for many the only option is to basically retreat from society entirely, resulting in hardcore alienation, with all the problems that entails.



People like this should avoid college at all costs (at least early on). These kind of people should find a trade that interests them and become heavily invested and educated in it. Not only will they have a job, but they will still have a good foundation of education to possibly pursue higher careers in the future. More importantly it will also give these people a community to be apart of and will give them personal and professional friendships. 

The almost fetish that is getting your kids to go to college as soon as possible is very damaging in my opinion. There are a lot of things that are more important than getting an education. Getting any degree, even a STEM one, does not mean you will automatically be financially self sustaining and emotionally prepared to be in a place to take control of your life.


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## Dante Alighieri (Jul 6, 2020)

Sperghetti said:


> I would add that it seems like we never got past the whole "you _have_ to go to college if you want a good job" mentality.


Part of that is the reduction in shop classes and blue collar skills stuff that feature in many 80s-90s movies. There's a fuckton of money in welding, electrician, plumbing, but those don't generate a ton of money for academia in the form of endless student debt.

Trades will _always _be needed but it's never discussed as a possibility for people.


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## Johan Schmidt (Jul 6, 2020)

DanteAlighieri said:


> Part of that is the reduction in shop classes and blue collar skills stuff that feature in many 80s-90s movies. There's a fuckton of money in welding, electrician, plumbing, but those don't generate a ton of money for academia in the form of endless student debt.
> 
> Trades will _always _be needed but it's never discussed as a possibility for people.


Hell, carpetlaying is a massive money making; it fucks your knees up worse than being a soldier though. I feel that probably doesn't help; the physical aspects of those jobs. A lot of people associate non office/lab work as being 'dumb' or low paying because they have little experience with it beyond giving money to the plumber. It's also probably just snobbery. Personally I'd love to be able to build a house from scratch, welding, electrical work, plumbing and all. 

A plurality of skills is a great thing to have for day to day life as well. Education isn't focused on making a well rounded person with useful skills; it's focused on churning out people than can pass exams and do the barebones mathematics and english needed for office/store/ grunt work.


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## Beard_Chan (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> you're mixing two different situations here: failing stem students, and socially alienated nerds. there is some overlap between these phenomena, but they are not the same, and they have different causes.
> 
> about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
> imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.
> ...



Completely agree here. Public school is auto-pilot almost, you don't have to put any effort in to get through. Good study habits aren't formed unless you are guided by good parents. You can learn it yourself too but that usually comes after you make mistakes. You are so naive I'd say under 22 in this world. People need better guidance on what to do with themselves after High School. College is not the only option, especially now with the movement to remove college degree from resume applications. 

When you get into the workforce and a career, you realize titles don't mean shit. There are shit doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. I know many who got out of all their schooling and forgot most of it in a few years, or directly said they were on cruise control with gov contracts until they retire (science field). It does not take intelligence to get through most degrees in college, just raw memorization and basic problem solving. 

I've known many amazing engineers who are self-taught, mainly in the computer science field. Leaders in the company who are leaps and bounds ahead of anyone with a 4 year or more degree. I'm not saying that is the case with everyone, just saying it matters more what you can do and your experience in the industry vs what college you went to. 

I completely get that there are fields where you must have college (doctor, nurse, scientist, etc), but there are tons of other careers out there where you have everything you need online to learn what is needed to get in, then go from there and continue learning and doing in the industry.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 6, 2020)

Beard_Chan said:


> I completely get that there are fields where you must have college (doctor, nurse, scientist, etc), but there are tons of other careers out there where you have everything you need online to learn what is needed to get in, then go from there and continue learning and doing in the industry.


problem with that approach is that tons of companies literally won't even consider a candidate unless he has a degree. without a degree it is literally impossible to even get your foot in the door, your personal abilities or skills don't even matter in this case.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 6, 2020)

There are absolutely great software engineers who are self taught. Won’t deny that. But saying that over and over tells kids hey, all you need is a ‘learn to code’ book, you don’t need a formal education to be making 100k, and for most people that is not true. (I am including trade school and apprenticeships here in my definition of formal education). Really smart people will always be successful. If those self taught engineers were born in 1200 they would be brilliant theologians instead. The average 100 IQ person? No. Like sure they can get a code monkey or IT helpdesk job, but not the big bucks they’re imagining. Now, if the person is from a world where most people have a low paying retail job then IT helpdesk is a step up, but if they’re from a middle class or higher world then it isn’t. 

Personally I found college easier than high school, and part of that is that I wasn’t overwhelmed. In high school I had to wake up really early and I had six classes every day with homework every day. In college you have more room to breathe. 

Another issue is absolutely terrible writing and communication skills. Being a native English speaker is a huge advantage, yet I have met many native speakers who attended ostensibly good high schools who could not write well. It’s because of standardized testing, where short answer and timed essays are all you write. There needs to be way more writing in high schools, and not solely about books.


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## Otterly (Jul 6, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> be strict and harsh with your children and force them to develop discipline from a young age, that's the only way really.



I do t think you need to be harsh, at least not often. I think you have to be firm and fair and consistent and if a harsh lesson arises as a natural consequence then so be it. If I’ve told you not to climb that thing fifty times and you climb that thing and fall off, I’m going to tell you off as we go get that broken arm fixed. There’s no need for deliberately harsh stuff in the sense of sadism. 



Johan Schmidt said:


> I have to be a biochemist, a geneticist, a programmer and a lab tech all in one to get a job (according to my lecturers).


   Your lecturers are correct. If you’ll take a tip from someone in the field? Get as much into the stats/software/programming as you can. Even at the expense of the wet work  side of it if you have to (get the basics still...) 
    There is a massive glut of bioscience students but very few who can do the mathematical/statistical/programming side as well as having the knowledge around it. Try and network a bit with industry as well if you can.


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## Johan Schmidt (Jul 6, 2020)

Otterly said:


> Your lecturers are correct. If you’ll take a tip from someone in the field? Get as much into the stats/software/programming as you can. Even at the expense of the wet work  side of it if you have to (get the basics still...)
> There is a massive glut of bioscience students but very few who can do the mathematical/statistical/programming side as well as having the knowledge around it. Try and network a bit with industry as well if you can.


Grim, I fucking hate R. Oh well, needs must I suppose.


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## Otterly (Jul 6, 2020)

Johan Schmidt said:


> Grim, I fucking hate R. Oh well, needs must I suppose.


   Yup. A lot of clinical trial stuff uses SAS, and I think that’s in C, so don’t hang everything on one language. Bioscience alone is a competitive field. If you’ve got the programming and numeracy you’ll do just fine. Good luck


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## Secret Asshole (Jul 7, 2020)

I'm in STEM. I'll give you an over view on the 'S' part that everyone loves, Science.

1) A bachelor's in a non-professional science (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) is functionally useless and good for basically being a lab bitch for 30k a year. And when I say lab bitch, I mean just cleaning, ordering managerial shit or really long grunt work no one wants to do.

2) A Masters in a non-professional science is less useless. You might be lucky enough to be an underling and make a decent wage. But its a lot harder to find a job than you'd think.

3) Academia is a massive shit show of politics, begging for money and trying to manipulate one project into five papers for publish or perish. Just don't. Complete the bare minimum and leave. Though you do get the benefit of literally not giving a shit once you get tenure.

4) The PhD level is the most anxiety inducing higher education you can possibly take up. Suicide rates and drop out rates sometimes exceed 50% in STEM. No one in your family, unless PhDs themselves, will be able to understand anything you do. You will be completely and utterly alone unless you work in a close knit lab working on the same thing, which is rare. Don't expect to find a lot of friends, as all PhD students are specializing and will have no idea what the hell you are doing. They will only know your pain. You have to be functionally retarded, brain damaged or insane to do it. However, it IS the most rewarding from STEM since a PhD is basically freedom to do whatever anywhere in STEM and beyond. Also foreign countries, especially the third world, will line up to suck the dick of an American PhD. You might have to live in a third world shithole, but you'll be paid so well you'll literally live like a king and the government will, no fucking joke, send armed people to protect you just to protect their investment and not cause an international incident.

5) Its not all science. Be prepared for bureaucracy from hell. Universities are structured like they were written from a Kafka story. Be prepared to deal with shit you never expected to deal with. I am in a lab by myself, so I do inventory, run maintenance, call for cleaning, do ordering, do stock, clean the lab, etc. Basically I am a fully qualified lab manager even though it has nothing to do with what I'm supposed to do.

6) It is not for everyone. You should NEVER EVER do a Science career unless you're aiming for at least a high Masters. And socially awkward will NOT cut it. You will get berated, shit on, ripped apart. Everyone has break downs and most people I know have ran as fast as I could once they leave university and never look back.

7) On the plus side, drop out rates are low once you hit like three years in. Unless you blow your brains out.


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## Save Goober (Jul 7, 2020)

I'm a STEM failure and I felt guilty about it for a long time. At the time, the women in STEM thing was just getting pushed and I felt obligated to go into, because I'm smart and got good grades. I also believed it was the best thing any smart person could do and any non-STEM career was less important.
I didn't really like it. I'm lazy, and it's hard. Was I not smart enough? Maybe, but I've seen dumber people do fine by working really hard.
In the end, I ended up in business, which is what I wanted to do before getting suckered into STEM. And that's fine. It's what I'm good at. If I want to "help humanity" or whatever I can just as easily donate money.

STEM is way overglorified IMO. I had this idea that STEM advances humanity, which silicon valley seems to unironically believe, but most of them are just making garbage apps and products people don't really need so they can bring home a paycheck. Research and academia is a mess. I realized they're all mostly doing the same things I am: trying to sell stuff to people. Whether that's a product, an idea, or their own reputation. There are some that work on worthwhile things that actually help people, but most don't. There's no inherent nobility to being in STEM.

With how hyped up STEM is by everyone I can easily see young men feeling like failures if they can't hack it in STEM. That leads to failure to launch as you've wasted a lot of money, have no idea what to do, and are questioning your intelligence and if you're really able to have a worthwhile career at all. Much easier to shut off and play vidya.

I also suspect some of the push and glorification of STEM is to make those hires cheaper in the future.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 7, 2020)

melty said:


> With how hyped up STEM is by everyone I can easily see young men feeling like failures if they can't hack it in STEM. That leads to failure to launch as you've wasted a lot of money, have no idea what to do, and are questioning your intelligence and if you're really able to have a worthwhile career at all. Much easier to shut off and play vidya.


the sad reality is that once you've failed out of college, any hope for an actual career is basically gone for good - and the economy increasingly looks like you either get into a top earning career and end up making six figures a year, or you'll be stuck slaving away at min wage positions for the rest of your life, with not much opportunity in between.

and well, in a job market where employers treat applicants without degrees like they're ex-cons on parole, your only future prospects will be stuff like mopping the floor at mcdonalds for $6 an hour for the rest of your life. compared to that, a life of vidya addiction and pornsickness doesn't look all that bad. cause let's be real, you're not gonna be finding a wife and starting a family on a fast food janitor salary either, so might as well go full shut-in NEET lol


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## King Ghidorah (Jul 8, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> be strict and harsh with your children and force them to develop discipline from a young age, that's the only way really.


It's a great ideal to have your kids gain discipline the thing is that often kids in disciplinarian households tend to just end up developing authority issues and resentment later on I know it's the common idea that they'll learn to appreciate it later on but that just isn't what always happens


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## Shadfan666xxx000 (Jul 8, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> the sad reality is that once you've failed out of college, any hope for an actual career is basically gone for good - and the economy increasingly looks like you either get into a top earning career and end up making six figures a year, or you'll be stuck slaving away at min wage positions for the rest of your life, with not much opportunity in between.
> 
> and well, in a job market where employers treat applicants without degrees like they're ex-cons on parole, your only future prospects will be stuff like mopping the floor at mcdonalds for $6 an hour for the rest of your life. compared to that, a life of vidya addiction and pornsickness doesn't look all that bad. cause let's be real, you're not gonna be finding a wife and starting a family on a fast food janitor salary either, so might as well go full shut-in NEET lol


Dude, we still have military and trades. Just think outside the corporate structure.


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## Saint Alphonsus (Jul 8, 2020)

Secret Asshole said:


> I'm in STEM. I'll give you an over view on the 'S' part that everyone loves, Science.
> 
> 1) A bachelor's in a non-professional science (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) is functionally useless and good for basically being a lab bitch for 30k a year. And when I say lab bitch, I mean just cleaning, ordering managerial shit or really long grunt work no one wants to do.
> 
> ...


This entire tirade is why I said "fuck getting a Ph.D."

The Ph.D. system is completely and utterly broken. If you churn out more Ph.D's than there are tenure track positions to hire them, congratulations--you've created an asset bubble. Medics used to preen and say that their field is impervious to these stresses, but guess what--there's now a rising population of MD's who can't get internships, let alone residencies. Have fun explaining why you've never done any practical work with your six-figure piece of paper.

There's a good reason why so many grad students are Indians and Chinese. The former because they are largely docile, spineless cucks who see the poverty stipend as still greater than what they can earn in their homeland and the latter because they're spies for the CCP. 

I stupidly, stupidly enrolled in an online Master's program simply because I wanted my parents to shut up about me getting an advanced degree, but what I really should have done is grown some balls and found a non-wetlab job much sooner than I did. Not that I have any desire to participate in the corporate world any longer; now that the entire world has lost it's mind over a fucking coof with a 99% survival rate and needlessly commit seppuku over dindu rage, I'd much rather go out to the desert and live like the ascetic monks of old.


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## millais (Jul 8, 2020)

Otterly said:


> There is a massive glut of bioscience students but very few who can do the mathematical/statistical/programming side as well as having the knowledge around it. Try and network a bit with industry as well if you can.


As time goes by, there are going to be far fewer openings for researchers and techs who are solely qualified in wetlab work. Everything is all about bioinformatics now, and people are saying that very soon wetlab work will just be an afterthought used to confirm or refute whatever novel findings the computer simulations spit out. Way cheaper and more labor efficient to run a lab that way. Except for pharmaceutical/medical-related clinical trials, which for government regulatory reasons cannot be bypassed, it sounds like the days of the big wetlabs are numbered.

So there's not much future for anyone in biological sciences without getting some serious CS under one's belt.


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## Secret Asshole (Jul 8, 2020)

millais said:


> As time goes by, there are going to be far fewer openings for researchers and techs who are solely qualified in wetlab work. Everything is all about bioinformatics now, and people are saying that very soon wetlab work will just be an afterthought used to confirm or refute whatever novel findings the computer simulations spit out. Way cheaper and more labor efficient to run a lab that way. Except for pharmaceutical/medical-related clinical trials, which for government regulatory reasons cannot be bypassed, it sounds like the days of the big wetlabs are numbered.
> 
> So there's not much future for anyone in biological sciences without getting some serious CS under one's belt.



This is like 5-15 years off though and its been what a lot of people have been saying. I'm down in the trenches and even I'm drifting away from wetlab. What IS going to happen faster is animal work is going to start to disappear as we're finding major faults with animal models and animals are extremely expensive. What's going to happen before this is 'organs on a chip'. 

I expect programs will start integrating CS into them. Its really not possible for CS to go to biology as that's a lot of knowledge and theory to consume, its a lot easier for biology to go to CS as a supplemental.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 8, 2020)

Saint Alphonsus said:


> The Ph.D. system is completely and utterly broken. If you churn out more Ph.D's than there are tenure track positions to hire them, congratulations--you've created an asset bubble.


to be fair, a phd isn't only good for becoming a professor later on. having a phd can also (depending on field and specialisation of course) make you very attractive for positions in r+d departments in the private sector

its not like if you have a phd and dont get a tenure track position then your life is ruined. you're still a highly qualified expert in your field, so if that field is a big and profitable one you will have no problems finding gainful employment.


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## Saint Alphonsus (Jul 8, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> to be fair, a phd isn't only good for becoming a professor later on. having a phd can also (depending on field and specialisation of course) make you very attractive for positions in r+d departments in the private sector
> 
> its not like if you have a phd and dont get a tenure track position then your life is ruined. you're still a highly qualified expert in your field, so if that field is a big and profitable one you will have no problems finding gainful employment.


This is a cope I've been hearing for over a decade. As I said in the previous post, we're entering an era where also M.D. grads are finding themselves locked out of the practice of medicine. If you have a degree that is traditionally geared towards a certain profession and you have to fight hundreds of your peers to get into that profession: surprise, you're in an asset bubble.

Coping isn't bad, but at the same time, you can't deny that the bill of goods you were sold was a counterfeit.

 As a bit of an aside, The rise in "pH.D. only" positions in Big Pharma and Big Tech is largely because the gatekeepers are exploiting the credential glut.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 8, 2020)

Saint Alphonsus said:


> This is a cope I've been hearing for over a decade. As I said in the previous post, we're entering an era where also M.D. grads are finding themselves locked out of the practice of medicine. If you have a degree that is traditionally geared towards a certain profession and you have to fight hundreds of your peers to get into that profession: surprise, you're in an asset bubble.
> 
> Coping isn't bad, but at the same time, you can't deny that the bill of goods you were sold was a counterfeit.
> 
> As a bit of an aside, The rise in "pH.D. only" positions in Big Pharma and Big Tech is largely because the gatekeepers are exploiting the credential glut.


maybe it is indeed different in the medical field, i don't know. i'm in tech, and while i don't have a phd myself, i have close friends who do, and i also work with people who do. i can't say for sure whether the time spent on that phd is more or less well invested than it would be in getting job experience after the masters, but i can say for certain that none of the phd guys i know have serious problems finding appropriate and lucrative employment.

but again, it might be very different in other science fields. in tech there is a gigantic private sector full of insanely wealthy companies, the same probably does not exist for more pure science fields like biology or physics, so the employment situation is probably different there.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 8, 2020)

I had high school teachers with PhDs. One of them taught math and computer science and also taught at the local state university at nights. He made more teaching high school. Now I will acknowledge I come from a city with highly compensated teachers, but I’m also tired of adjuncts endlessly complaining about how poorly they’re paid when they could go do something else.

Also, pharmacy schools and law schools have a massive oversupply problem.


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## Saint Alphonsus (Jul 8, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> Now I will acknowledge I come from a city with highly compensated teachers, but I’m also tired of adjuncts endlessly complaining about how poorly they’re paid when they could go do something else.


Their egos have been shredded with a riding mower. I like it to the prodigal son going his own way and realizing the horror of eating pig slop when his father's servants have a better standard of living.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 8, 2020)

Saint Alphonsus said:


> Their egos have been shredded with a riding mower. I like it to the prodigal son going his own way and realizing the horror of eating pig slop when his father's servants have a better standard of living.


I have a friend who recently got a classics degree from an Ivy League institution, and will be starting a masters of teaching in classics program in the fall. I bet she could’ve gotten into a classics PhD program. But then you’re playing tenure track/adjunct roulette, as opposed to a much more certain union paycheck, and, she’ll also have a much much higher likelihood of being able to stay near our hometown as opposed to having to take any tenure track position anywhere. (I live somewhere with a lot of high schools offering Latin so this isn’t a dumb career path). 

A lot of adjuncts are people who’ve been told they’re special their whole life and won’t accept they’re not.


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## Terrorist (Jul 9, 2020)

What we need to realize is not every kid is born with the native capacity to do STEM or pursue post-secondary education...and that's OK. Society can't all be geniuses.


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## emo goff (Jul 9, 2020)

i went for stem because i watched too much Dave ramsey and thought being an IT/coding fag was the ticket to being successful. Well i graduated and did well and all that but guess what, i cant get hired because the decent internships are all in coast cities and i cant move there. And the normal jobs want you to have sixty years of experience and be a specialist in every programming and software known to man, thanks to pajeet hiring practices. and im fucking female so they should apparently be showering me with offers. not really. at least im not in debt because i was a studyhard autist in HS and got funding.

it really sucks to bust your ass for 4 years doing everything "right" and then become a failson anyway


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## Chad Nasty (Jul 9, 2020)

My problem was that I just wasn't interested in school. I generally not interested in the work. I didn't like college either. I am a super unconventional learner. I either have to pursue it out of interest or know the endgame. School doesn't really cater to any of that. So I decided I just don't want to do it anymore

I started my own project to get me to a place I would like to be.
I have learned way more with this kind of approach than having 5 classes where 3 of the teachers are there as a meal ticket. No thx jeff.

I would have liked to see an emphasis on project orientated work instead of the classical approach for my own purposes. I would also like to see more emphasis placed on personal or passion projects with HR than anything else. For some reason HR thinks that the years I did at huge companies are more valuable. This is pretty far from the truth, at least in my experience. It is dull, boring copypaste work in general. In my professional work, the best job was being a consultant. Yea, you can get some shit projects. But, if you get something cool you will always carry that with you.

I think there should be a much bigger push for project based curriculum. Giving a vague outline on what the project needs to do really kicks the critical thinking and creativity of the students and it also requires them to understand the concepts in the arena  of practical use. But that is what would have been the best approach for people like me.

Past that, I don't fully believe the concept that people just can't learn learn something. My software instructor was hands down the best teacher I have ever had. He was able to teach me complex subjects extremely well. From that experience I really took on the mentality that I can learn, I need the right explanation. Its discouraging to people to have one bad experience then assume they are bad at something because they didn't fit in the edu system .




emo goff said:


> i went for stem because i watched too much Dave ramsey and thought being an IT/coding fag was the ticket to being successful. Well i graduated and did well and all that but guess what, i cant get hired because the decent internships are all in coast cities and i cant move there. And the normal jobs want you to have sixty years of experience and be a specialist in every programming and software known to man, thanks to pajeet hiring practices. and im fucking female so they should apparently be showering me with offers. not really. at least im not in debt because i was a studyhard autist in HS and got funding.
> 
> it really sucks to bust your ass for 4 years doing everything "right" and then become a failson anyway


Dude, I know your pain. Its such a fucking time sink. I literally told this one company that I can spent 27 hours in three days to study topics people build 20 careers on to then have my aptitude be based on a 30 minute test is ridiculous and I have no motivation to do it. I just can't do the bombastic interview processes some company's have. I don't need two interviews prior to an 8 hour interview with a 1 hour lunch where I constantly was being assessed.  What really gets me pissy is when I have to explain this to someone who is oblivious to the process. Don't have an opinion of technical interviews unless you have actual experience with them.


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## Aqua Panda (Jul 9, 2020)

I can sympathize. I went full IT and because my university wasn't on the coast and I couldn't afford to take an internship (I crunched the numbers and I needed to take more classes to make sure I got scholarship money to feed myself), I ended up with a 6 year gap in my resume where I jumped from retail job to retail job earning minimum after graduation.

Let me tell you, feeling like you pissed away 4 years of your life and having it seem like you're unemployable is a good way to experience massive near suicidal depression. Year 5 and 6 were especially brutal as my siblings graduated, got work, and my parents started thinking of me as the failure son. I eventually met someone who took me on as an assistant and had tons of amazing connections. This opened doors for me and I've been able to springboard to where I should generally be at this point in my career. However, I know I got lucky as fuck. I still could easily be washing dishes or serving coffee right now.

Trades are absolutely a viable option that we as a society need to push more. Especially since academia demands higher end mathematics for most sciences. (And beyond basic Algerba, I've never needed the bloated higher requirements my university demanded. But they gotta tack in as much extra courses as possible to get more guaranteed student loan money from the government.) The harsh truth is that a lot of people won't be able to handle it and effectively condemning people to menial retail work is completely ass backwards and will end up wasting a generation of viable middle class workers.

The sad shit is that we are already seeing this with the middle class on a scary downward trend and worker visa abuse bringing in foreign workers when the job really should go to a domestic citizen.


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## emo goff (Jul 9, 2020)

Aqua Panda said:


> I can sympathize. I went full IT and because my university wasn't on the coast and I couldn't afford to take an internship (I crunched the numbers and I needed to take more classes to make sure I got scholarship money to feed myself), I ended up with a 6 year gap in my resume where I jumped from retail job to retail job earning minimum after graduation.
> 
> Let me tell you, feeling like you pissed away 4 years of your life and having it seem like your unemployable is a good way to experience massive near suicidal depression. Year 5 and 6 were especially brutal as my siblings graduated, got work, and my parents started thinking of me as the failure son. I eventually met someone who took me on as an assistant and had tons of amazing connections. This opened doors for me and I've been able to springboard to where I should generally be at this point in my career. However, I know I got lucky as fuck. I still could easily be washing dishes or serving coffee right now.
> 
> ...


I agree the whole internship bullshit needs to end. companies should suck it up and employ new people and give them a training period or something because not all of us can get the time, transportation or nepotism to drive up to the shiny city buildings every day  for free labor (ahem, ~experience~) while doing 18 credit hour semesters.

it was real fun hearing my classmates talk about "just network dude, just get your resume out there dude" while they intern at their daddy's friend's company and have a new car and paid-for apartment. but i guess i'm just bitter lol


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## Unassuming Local Guy (Jul 9, 2020)

STEM glut is just like any other glut.  It makes it harder for the weak to survive and easier for the strong.  The worse the glut, the bigger the skill divide.

Let's say the entire electrical engineer workforce has 1000 people.  If we arrange them from 0 to 100, where 100 is the most competent, you'll see that, just like almost any metric for a given population, the vast majority are going to fall between, say, 20 and 80.  Almost all of them, in fact.

The fact that the entire workforce has only 1000 people means there's a job slot for all of them.  Even the 0s are getting jobs, because most if not all companies think that anything is better than nothing.  They are wrong.

Now let's say the size of the workforce is 1,000,000,000.  There are way more EEs than jobs out there for them.  What happens?  Companies start picking engineers off the right side of the bell curve and slowly work their way down, stopping once the slots are all filled.  Given that we have a billion engineers looking for employment, this is probably going to happen once they get to the low 80s of competence.  Nobody anywhere near the bottom will ever get work, while the people near the top are in such high demand they can set their own prices.

The only time this _doesn't_ hold true is when companies don't give half a fuck about the result and just want to save money.  That's where H1B workers come in.  I don't think anyone, no matter how woke, would argue that the average H1B worker is even remotely as skilled as a domestic worker, and that's not even taking into account the language barrier, cultural barriers, and the mess of red tape that is international hiring.  

Thing is, you don't want to work for these companies.  They don't want you unless you're willing to work for minimum or near minimum wage.  If every H1B suddenly died tonight, they still wouldn't be knocking on your door because you want a living wage, and they're not going to pay it.  They'd sooner have their entire company run by 19 year old interns, because at least they don't have to pay them.

Bottom line is, unless you're exceedingly good, don't even bother.  Find another job.  You can get back into the field 5-10 years down the line when all the blue haired transgender trend followers have moved onto whatever career Vice promises them is the one that will definitely take all the bad thoughts away this time.

It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college.  Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level.  There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 9, 2020)

Unassuming Local Guy said:


> It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college. Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level. There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.


working for small business aka doing janitor or cleaning work isnt what you get a fucking tech degree for, and career wise it's a worthless dead-end too
working for small business in any actual tech related position? maybe if you live in LA, otherwise good fucking luck finding anything lol
freelancing? without a double digit year count of relevant job experience? might as well try making a living from playing the lottery
and dont even get me started on contracting gigs, that shit is the same situation as freelancing except ten times rarer and harder to get


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## Syaoran Li (Jul 10, 2020)

King Ghidorah said:


> It's a great ideal to have your kids gain discipline the thing is that often kids in disciplinarian households tend to just end up developing authority issues and resentment later on I know it's the common idea that they'll learn to appreciate it later on but that just isn't what always happens



This is very true, and is one of the reasons why I think advocating for a return to "traditionalism" is the worst thing that you can do if you want to counter Woke Leftism, no matter how many times pseudo-intellectual (((traditionalist))) faggots like Nick Fuentes and The Distributist go "hurr durr what are we conserving?" or rant about "muh degeneracy" like an autistic Cotton Mather

A lot of the most batshit insane SJW's I've met usually came from disciplinarian households, usually of a traditionalist bent since the ones I know all grew up in Bible Belt redneck Appalachia.

The "Mom and Dad were strict but I learned to appreciate it later on" is a lot more rare than most people think, and it's mostly a phenomenon that I've mostly seen happen with Boomer and Generation X types who grew up in liberal blue states or the more secular-leaning purple states.

Millennials and Early Zoomers who grew up in strict households are almost always the living embodiment of the "Fuck You Dad" SJW wokester meme, especially if they grew up in the Bible Belt. 

Those fedora-tipping atheist douchebags happened for a reason, they didn't just materialize out of nowhere. Same goes for the SJW hateboner for anything remotely Christian in nature.

Really, I think there's a multitude of factors that piled up over time and led to the failed generation we have today.


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## Chad Nasty (Jul 10, 2020)

Unassuming Local Guy said:


> Bottom line is, unless you're exceedingly good, don't even bother.  Find another job.  You can get back into the field 5-10 years down the line when all the blue haired transgender trend followers have moved onto whatever career Vice promises them is the one that will definitely take all the bad thoughts away this time.


I don't recommend this. The multi year gaps of the technical employment will negatively affect you. The SJW's aren't going anywhere anyways, their just infiltrating and shitting up AI now instead of doing more to the massive fag pit of JS.



Unassuming Local Guy said:


> It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college.  Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level.  There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.


I've never encountered that kind of mentality.
My experience is that big companies (fortune 500) are boring pigeon holes unless you do crazy concept design, you're generally copy pasting existing code that needs to be repurposed/refactored while dealing with turbo-sped DBA's and product teams. Slow and steady, but if you get comfortable you get pigeon holed and might see your relevancy go poof when some new datascience kids come around looking to make a name for themselves. I didn't find it challenging or fulfilling

The contract jobs generally are indian boiler rooms. Being a contractor can fucking blow too with the fact that the company could be implementing real retarded stuff and you have no say other than "got it". Building a solid technical resume with contracts can be hard. I don't include some because it wasn't pertinent to anything and I was basically the scape goat of any bad implementation. And if project wraps up early or shit, they'll give you a wave while you pack your shit. I didn't like the tech interview time sink before and I don't like it now. having to do it multiple times a year would be a terrible inevitability.

Small businesses that do software generally have a start-up atmosphere. I love that shit and the camaraderie, but you get burned the fuck out as scope creep and technical debt ravage your angus. I never saw it as beneath me as I saw it as a white knuckle ride going full speed on fat lines of coke.

Medium sized companies (consulting firms) is kind of a sweet spot. You aren't always doing pigeon hole work, and sometimes it can kids ass. It doesn't have the full throttle of a small company and you don't have to constantly be dealt with since the hiring managers can usually place you on another project.

In all honesty, people are better off now to build their own passion project. This shows so much more ability of an individual. I wouldn't do contracts unless its necessary or you're doing those HUGE $120/hour contracts. I just plain don't like the environment of contracting.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 10, 2020)

Aqua Panda said:


> I can sympathize. I went full IT and because my university wasn't on the coast and I couldn't afford to take an internship (I crunched the numbers and I needed to take more classes to make sure I got scholarship money to feed myself), I ended up with a 6 year gap in my resume where I jumped from retail job to retail job earning minimum after graduation.
> 
> Let me tell you, feeling like you pissed away 4 years of your life and having it seem like your unemployable is a good way to experience massive near suicidal depression. Year 5 and 6 were especially brutal as my siblings graduated, got work, and my parents started thinking of me as the failure son. I eventually met someone who took me on as an assistant and had tons of amazing connections. This opened doors for me and I've been able to springboard to where I should generally be at this point in my career. However, I know I got lucky as fuck. I still could easily be washing dishes or serving coffee right now.
> 
> ...


I don’t know how to feel about the ‘join a trade’ advice. Someone who drops out of college because their grades are bad from doing nothing but smoking weed and playing vidya isn’t going to become a great carpenter, because they don’t have a work ethic. I’m from somewhere with strong labor unions, so the pay is good, but that also means they aren’t going to let just anybody into apprenticeships. 

There are middle class jobs that don’t require being good at math, but they do require being good at talking to people, writing, or both.


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## The Last Stand (Jul 10, 2020)

I learned the hard way that pursuing a CS or IT degree isn't as easy or as fun as they say it is. 

Programming isn't for everybody. I thought IT would just be knowing how to use programs and troubleshooting. It IS hard, particularly the Math and coding classes. 

Just because you THINK have an interest in computers, that doesn't always translate well in the CS field. Your "interest" may be elementary at best.


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## AnimeGirlConnoisseur (Jul 12, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> you're mixing two different situations here: failing stem students, and socially alienated nerds. there is some overlap between these phenomena, but they are not the same, and they have different causes.
> 
> about the college dropout types: from my experience, in more than 90% of cases, it's not an issue of them lacking brain power or smarts, but an issue of them lacking discipline and work ethic. these are often smart boys, who cruised through high school with zero effort on pure brain power alone. then, when that is no longer enough because college classes are actually challenging, they suddenly fail miserably. because throughout their entire life they never had to actually put effort into anything to succeed, and nobody taught them the importance of discipline and work ethic, it was always just "look at how much of a genius our boy is" and "work smart, not hard"
> imo it's not so much a failure of the education system, more a failure of parenting.


I agree with you, but I think one thing you're forgetting here is that highschool and undergraduate life is completely different. Highschool students are always put under scrutiny and their life is basically micromanaged in many ways (especially if they are involved extra-curricular activities). Undergraduate life is completely different. When you go from highschool to college you are basically going from an environment where you have ask permission and fill out paperwork to take a piss to an environment where you can just skip class and nobody can do a thing about it. I think that whole process trips some people up. 


Salubrious said:


> I've been thinking about this with the BLM movement.
> 
> One of the big arguments is that black men don't have enough opportunities to go to college.
> 
> ...


Do you think you can elaborate on this? I've heard this from time to time, but I simply can't understand it. I was raised by and around people with the exact opposite mindset so, me trying to understand it is like a guy who wants to lose weight trying to understand someone with an eating disorder.  Why do some Black people think like this?


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 12, 2020)

AnimeGirlConnoisseur said:


> Why do some Black people think like this?


it's the 'crabs in a bucket' phenomenon combined with resentment fueled by envy and jealousy, and a big ego. and it's not just blacks, you see the same mindset in underclass populations of all races, they just use other words than "acting white" for it.

if i had to name it, i'd call it antisocial culture or criminal culture. it's the same mindset that creates attitudes like 'snitches get stitches'. 
if you want to see that culture in action, look how prison populations or street gangs behave. and i don't mean "look at the crimes they commit" but look at how they socialize, what values they uphold, what rules they follow and enforce.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 12, 2020)

AnimeGirlConnoisseur said:


> I agree with you, but I think one thing you're forgetting here is that highschool and undergraduate life is completely different. Highschool students are always put under scrutiny and their life is basically micromanaged in many ways (especially if they are involved extra-curricular activities). Undergraduate life is completely different. When you go from highschool to college you are basically going from an environment where you have ask permission and fill out paperwork to take a piss to an environment where you can just skip class and nobody can do a thing about it. I think that whole process trips some people up.
> 
> Do you think you can elaborate on this? I've heard this from time to time, but I simply can't understand it. I was raised by and around people with the exact opposite mindset so, me trying to understand it is like a guy who wants to lose weight trying to understand someone with an eating disorder.  Why do some Black people think like this?


There’s a lot of people who aren’t prepared for independence, and that you should go to class even if there will be no immediate consequences for not doing so. It’s a lack of self control.


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## Salubrious (Jul 12, 2020)

AnimeGirlConnoisseur said:


> Do you think you can elaborate on this? I've heard this from time to time, but I simply can't understand it. I was raised by and around people with the exact opposite mindset so, me trying to understand it is like a guy who wants to lose weight trying to understand someone with an eating disorder.  Why do some Black people think like this?



As @DumbDude42 said, a lot of it is people being upset because "you think they're better than them."  Crabs in a bucket.  Somehow, flashing around wads of cash is different; probably because they think they can take some off of you.  I can't give out IQ points to people.



SickNastyBastard said:


> The contract jobs generally are indian boiler rooms. Being a contractor can fucking blow too with the fact that the company could be implementing real retarded stuff and you have no say other than "got it". Building a solid technical resume with contracts can be hard. I don't include some because it wasn't pertinent to anything and I was basically the scape goat of any bad implementation. And if project wraps up early or shit, they'll give you a wave while you pack your shit. I didn't like the tech interview time sink before and I don't like it now. having to do it multiple times a year would be a terrible inevitability.
> 
> ...
> 
> In all honesty, people are better off now to build their own passion project. This shows so much more ability of an individual. I wouldn't do contracts unless its necessary or you're doing those HUGE $120/hour contracts. I just plain don't like the environment of contracting.



I had a woman contact me about a contracting job and was absolutely shocked that I wanted to be paid weekly/biweekly.

Another thing you have to worry about contract jobs is them not paying you "until it's done" and then the job is never done due to feature creep, them just not making up their minds, or them just not wanting to pay you so they put it in limbo.


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## Real Fakeman (Jul 12, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> working for small business aka doing janitor or cleaning work isnt what you get a fucking tech degree for, and career wise it's a worthless dead-end too
> working for small business in any actual tech related position? maybe if you live in LA, otherwise good fucking luck finding anything lol



I don't have a degree from university, but I went to IT trade school. After finishing as an apprentice in August I couldn't get a job in my area because there was really too much competition, and it's really tough to even get an interview when you don't have a lot of work experience on your resume, and I had to take a job as a taxi driver which I really fucking hated, and that really motivated me to look elsewhere. Well, in January I got a job, 2000 kilometers away, in the middle of nowhere. I bought a used van, packed as many of my things as I could fit in it, and drove off.

I often hear people complain that there are no jobs in their area, even with a fancy education. Well, move! Opportunity isn't always next door. 100+ years ago people moved from Europe to America in droves so they could till the dirt! But now, many people seem to be unwilling to move to "flyover country". Maybe because they need to be within a 5 minute walking distance from the weed shop and comic book store.


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## jje100010001 (Jul 12, 2020)

I would argue that critical theory/social sciences spillover is actively more harmful than merely pushing more people into STEM. Pushing more people into STEM will simply produce a larger, more variable crop of graduates, but intersectional metastasis will eat out STEM from inside.








https://twitter.com/cicelybelle_xo/status/1282377043913535490 (Archive)


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## Massa's Little Buckie (Jul 12, 2020)

Real Fakeman said:


> I don't have a degree from university, but I went to IT trade school. After finishing as an apprentice in August I couldn't get a job in my area because there was really too much competition, and it's really tough to even get an interview when you don't have a lot of work experience on your resume, and I had to take a job as a taxi driver which I really fucking hated, and that really motivated me to look elsewhere. Well, in January I got a job, 2000 kilometers away, in the middle of nowhere. I bought a used van, packed as many of my things as I could fit in it, and drove off.
> 
> I often hear people complain that there are no jobs in their area, even with a fancy education. Well, move! Opportunity isn't always next door. 100+ years ago people moved from Europe to America in droves so they could till the dirt! But now, many people seem to be unwilling to move to "flyover country". Maybe because they need to be within a 5 minute walking distance from the weed shop and comic book store.


Not everyone can just pack up and go.


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## abacussedout (Jul 13, 2020)

Not everyone can just pack up and go without giving something up in return. Barring paraplegia or another outlier pretty much everyone is capable at any given time of moving elsewhere, but it often goes untried because it's unpleasant, moreso if you have to drag others (spouse, kids, etc.) with you.

Where I'm from everyone expects to have to move to find their first job and most do, and it's sad saying goodbye and it's awkward and uncomfortable and a little frighting at first, but then years later when you're more experienced you can leverage that and return and compete if you really want to, and have some diversified life experience as a bonus. And the people that don't move for whatever reason, lack of discipline/courage most often, usually end up quite poor and miserable and opine that they should have left back in the day, but now they're stuck in a pattern just continue until they die poorly. Which is sadder than anything that comes from moving to find a job.


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## Harvey Danger (Jul 13, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> it's the 'crabs in a bucket' phenomenon combined with resentment fueled by envy and jealousy, and a big ego. and it's not just blacks, you see the same mindset in underclass populations of all races, they just use other words than "acting white" for it.
> 
> if i had to name it, i'd call it antisocial culture or criminal culture. it's the same mindset that creates attitudes like 'snitches get stitches'.
> if you want to see that culture in action, look how prison populations or street gangs behave. and i don't mean "look at the crimes they commit" but look at how they socialize, what values they uphold, what rules they follow and enforce.



Bring up "acting white" in front of the wrong people, and prepare to get an earful about white supremacist myths.  Even though it's not a myth, it's a well-documented cultural attitude that sprang up around the time of busing and integration in the 1960s.



Real Fakeman said:


> I don't have a degree from university, but I went to IT trade school. After finishing as an apprentice in August I couldn't get a job in my area because there was really too much competition, and it's really tough to even get an interview when you don't have a lot of work experience on your resume, and I had to take a job as a taxi driver which I really fucking hated, and that really motivated me to look elsewhere. Well, in January I got a job, 2000 kilometers away, in the middle of nowhere. I bought a used van, packed as many of my things as I could fit in it, and drove off.



The dirty little secret of IT is that we've had a glut of workers since 2001.  You absolutely _can not_ plan on getting an entry level job any more.

If anyone reading this is currently in college, whether CS or IT or IS or "business computing" or whatever they call it now:  my big advice is code multiple projects on your own.  You _can not_ go into a job interview with just a degree; you need a degree, a CV, and a portfolio.  (Class projects aren't enough, unless you went and enhanced them on your own after the class was done.)

Even if your entire "work experience" is a handful of web sites or Babby's First App, as long as it's in GitHub and you can send recruiters a link, you're in way better shape than someone with perfect grades and no projects.



jje100010001 said:


> I would argue that critical theory/social sciences spillover is actively more harmful than merely pushing more people into STEM. Pushing more people into STEM will simply produce a larger, more variable crop of graduates, but intersectional metastasis will eat out STEM from inside.



There's too much knowledge rot right now to blame SocJus crap for it.  We have useless software, Moore's Law dying 4 years ago, new drugs that aren't really effective or just fewer attempts to cure some diseases, etc.  The pace of innovation was stalling out shortly _before_ the SJW takeover. Arguably it might be the first victim of the decades-long takeover in academia, but considering the innovation boom of the 90s that can't be the only factor.

A pedantic argument about timing and source doesn't matter, only pointing out that _the harm is already here._  Any further critical theory/social sciences infestation from this point on simply exacerbates the situation.  Blaming it on leftist freaks and rooting them out doesn't solve whatever the underlying problem is.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 13, 2020)

abacussedout said:


> Not everyone can just pack up and go without giving something up in return. Barring paraplegia or another outlier pretty much everyone is capable at any given time of moving elsewhere, but it often goes untried because it's unpleasant, moreso if you have to drag others (spouse, kids, etc.) with you.
> 
> Where I'm from everyone expects to have to move to find their first job and most do, and it's sad saying goodbye and it's awkward and uncomfortable and a little frighting at first, but then years later when you're more experienced you can leverage that and return and compete if you really want to, and have some diversified life experience as a bonus. And the people that don't move for whatever reason, lack of discipline/courage most often, usually end up quite poor and miserable and opine that they should have left back in the day, but now they're stuck in a pattern just continue until they die poorly. Which is sadder than anything that comes from moving to find a job.


throwing away your entire life for the sake of work is not a reasonable expectation
it may seem acceptable to rootless cosmopolitans (and also basement dwellers who have no social ties anyway) but the wider social consequences of shit like this are disastrously bad


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 13, 2020)

‘Just move’ is bad advice. You already have a network in your hometown! People who went to the same high school as you, people who went to the same university as you, your parents’ friends, your friends’ parents, other adults around town you happen to know, etc. You know where the cheap but not dangerous neighborhood is and it’ll be easier for you to find a roommate you know isn’t crazy.  

On the other hand, if your career interests are something that only exists in a certain place, you either need to move or pick a different career. Don’t get an animation degree and then complain that all the jobs are in LA. Where did you think they would be?


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## Real Fakeman (Jul 13, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> ‘Just move’ is bad advice. You already have a network in your hometown! People who went to the same high school as you, people who went to the same university as you, your parents’ friends, your friends’ parents, other adults around town you happen to know, etc. You know where the cheap but not dangerous neighborhood is and it’ll be easier for you to find a roommate you know isn’t crazy.
> 
> On the other hand, if your career interests are something that only exists in a certain place, you either need to move or pick a different career. Don’t get an animation degree and then complain that all the jobs are in LA. Where did you think they would be?


Well, I probably am colored by my own experience. But I think a lot of people could be more adventurous, especially if they are young and don't have kids. It's not like you can't ever come back.


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## CWCissey (Jul 13, 2020)

Not everyone is academic, that should be realised.

These kids should be encouraged to learn a trade.


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## дядя Боря (Jul 13, 2020)

emo goff said:


> and im fucking female so they should apparently be showering me with offers. not really.





emo goff said:


> I agree the whole internship bullshit needs to end. companies should suck it up and employ new people and give them a training period or something because not all of us can get the time, transportation or nepotism to drive up to the shiny city buildings every day  for free labor (ahem, ~experience~) while doing 18 credit hour semesters.
> 
> it was real fun hearing my classmates talk about "just network dude, just get your resume out there dude" while they intern at their daddy's friend's company and have a new car and paid-for apartment. but i guess i'm just bitter lol



My dear "fucking female" ... market is shit right now, has been actually since last year. Even last year was kind of shitty, don't fret. 

Yeah, liberal shitholes and coastal cities strive to hire divershitty more. Internships are mainly to get your foot in the door with low pressure on both employer and employee, show your skills, look around and get solid references and track record. Also true for networking. It's all about nepotism and knowing people, especially at a higher level. Every good manager knows good people s/he can bring in a new gig.




Unassuming Local Guy said:


> Bottom line is, unless you're exceedingly good, don't even bother.  Find another job.  You can get back into the field 5-10 years down the line when all the blue haired transgender trend followers have moved onto whatever career Vice promises them is the one that will definitely take all the bad thoughts away this time.



I have known quiet a few close friends who were really good and got out of IT because it's overflown with dumb pajeets (with shady credentials) and even dumber managers who keep getting promoted because they can't do anything else, like copypaste someone else's code. Frankly, I'd rather work somewhere else, but pay is just too high.



Unassuming Local Guy said:


> It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college.  Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level.  There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.



The whole notion that many "engineers" fresh out of school having, i.e. becoming a CEO or CTO ... you guys need to look what a typical career tracks are. Being an engineer and aiming for positions where people comes from Sales and Marketing (mainly) is like that anecdote about sperm looking for egg in asshole.


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## Syaoran Li (Jul 13, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> ‘Just move’ is bad advice. You already have a network in your hometown! People who went to the same high school as you, people who went to the same university as you, your parents’ friends, your friends’ parents, other adults around town you happen to know, etc. You know where the cheap but not dangerous neighborhood is and it’ll be easier for you to find a roommate you know isn’t crazy.
> 
> On the other hand, if your career interests are something that only exists in a certain place, you either need to move or pick a different career. Don’t get an animation degree and then complain that all the jobs are in LA. Where did you think they would be?



As a general rule, yes. 

But there are exceptions to the "don't move" rule where moving out of your hometown is the best thing you can do for your career or future, be it if you live in an overpriced coastal lefty shithole or if you live in some impoverished crime-ridden shithole like inner-city Detroit or the rural coalfields of Appalachia where the economy has been in the shitter for years and there's no real prospects.


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## eternal dog mongler (Jul 14, 2020)

Syaoran Li said:


> As a general rule, yes.
> 
> But there are exceptions to the "don't move" rule where moving out of your hometown is the best thing you can do for your career or future, be it if you live in an overpriced coastal lefty shithole or if you live in some impoverished crime-ridden shithole like inner-city Detroit or the rural coalfields of Appalachia where the economy has been in the shitter for years and there's no real prospects.



If you're in a rural area then moving is generally good advice. "Networking" doesn't matter because it's likely that your contacts are the guy who works at Dollar General and the other guy who works at Pizza Hut.

These are not careers. If you live in an economically-depressed rural area and want to remain there while also making good money then your _only_ choice is healthcare. Otherwise, get out.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 15, 2020)

eternal dog mongler said:


> If you're in a rural area then moving is generally good advice. "Networking" doesn't matter because it's likely that your contacts are the guy who works at Dollar General and the other guy who works at Pizza Hut.
> 
> These are not careers. If you live in an economically-depressed rural area and want to remain there while also making good money then your _only_ choice is healthcare. Otherwise, get out.


You’re right, but the original person who started this subdiscussion said that once you’ve moved away later in your career you can ‘leverage that and return and compete’, which made me assume they were talking about a place that does have jobs other than Pizza Hut. Maybe @abacussedout can explain what they meant. In a competitive environment, surely the person with the hometown advantage has a leg up.


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## abacussedout (Jul 20, 2020)

I guess it depends on what you mean by hometown advantage. I was commenting on STEM and other lines of work that involve higher ed of some sort, be it a degree or a trade certificate. Networking is all well and good, but (nepotism aside) it doesn't change the number of jobs available. It's nice if you have a friend who will give you a referral for an initial interview, but you still have to compete for the position. And there's an unfortunate trend for "entry level" jobs to require a couple years experience. Or for the trades, if you need an apprenticeship etc. it can be pretty competitive just to start. If you want to stay in your hometown and you have a connection that allows you to start (and progress) your career locally then go for it, and congrats.

For the majority of my class in order to even start in our careers we had to move to wherever the job opportunity was, or stay and work retail for a few years while relentlessly applying to limited openings and amassing debt. And similarly to progress in subsequent roles. After a few years of leapfrogging most of us had enough experience to where we could return and be in demand, way ahead of those that stayed. Returning was my preference and I always angled towards that with my career decisions, and since I visited often and kept in close contact I knew where the economy was heading and specialized accordingly, so I guess that might be a hometown advantage. 

There are a lot of variables for each individual but don't hamstring yourself by not moving if that's what you need to do to build a decent life. Also being adventurous is a positive character quality that we have far too little of these days. And getting far enough into your career to provide a nice life for your kids when they come around is a good thing.


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## Bum Driller (Jul 20, 2020)

Salubrious said:


> Same with STEM.  The big push is "we need more women in STEM; companies need more women workers, et cetera".  Do women even WANT to be in STEM?  It seems like they are trying to shove a bunch of people that don't want to be there into it and are shocked when they fail.
> 
> TL;DR - People are confusing cause and effect like usual in the name of woke points.



This. I'm studying in a STEM-department currently, and the ratio of men to women is perhaps 4:1 or 3:1 nowadays. My mother studied the same subject three decades ago, and she has told that back then the ratio was close to 1:1. For some reason, despite the fact that there is much stronger push nowadays to get women in to STEM, their actual numbers have dropped dramatically. Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.


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## ditto (Jul 20, 2020)

Bum Driller said:


> Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.


Probably more guys doing STEM for the money, too.


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## Bum Driller (Jul 20, 2020)

ditto said:


> Probably more guys doing STEM for the money, too.



In my country it's very rare for women to want to stay at home and raise kids. Majority of people, men and women alike, think that it's extremely backwards and stupid for women to stay at home, and the general view is that both parents should equally take care of family income. Thus most of the women seek as profitable careers as they can get, for some reason they just don't seem to seek them in one of the most profitable STEM subjects.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 20, 2020)

Bum Driller said:


> Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.


i've seen this play out IRL in little kids first hand
show them a computer and tell them about some of the stuff it can do: calculate really large numbers really fast, display graphics in real time, connect across the world, play games, control machinery, etc - you will see a bunch of the boys get super impressed and ask how it works, meanwhile the girls all react with various shades of boredom and disinterest
and this is with 7yr olds and 8yr olds already, it probably doesn't get better from there as they grow older


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## Bum Driller (Jul 20, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> i've seen this play out IRL in little kids first hand
> show them a computer and tell them about some of the stuff it can do: calculate really large numbers really fast, display graphics in real time, connect across the world, play games, control machinery, etc - you will see a bunch of the boys get super impressed and ask how it works, meanwhile the girls all react with various shades of boredom and disinterest
> and this is with 7yr olds and 8yr olds already, it probably doesn't get better from there as they grow older



It's honestly retarded to assume that this would be some inborn quality in men or women. More likely it's a result of upbringing or other factors. I've lots of experience with kids of that age, and honestly boys aren't at all more interested in these things if they aren't taught, by rewarding such behaviour, to be interested in them. If they aren't taught that expressing interest in such things is regarded as good they simply react to it each according to their personal tastes(as much as little kids have consistent personal tastes), even if their parents and majority of close relatives would work in STEM fields. One day they may be really interested to hear how computer works, and the next day regard it as the most boring subject ever, preferring rather to hear about ancient Egypt or alligators.


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## Lemmingwise (Jul 20, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> i've seen this play out IRL in little kids first hand
> show them a computer and tell them about some of the stuff it can do: calculate really large numbers really fast, display graphics in real time, connect across the world, play games, control machinery, etc - you will see a bunch of the boys get super impressed and ask how it works, meanwhile the girls all react with various shades of boredom and disinterest
> and this is with 7yr olds and 8yr olds already, it probably doesn't get better from there as they grow older



Show kids how to draw and animate and girls will take more interest than boys. Level design is somewhat of an even split. Programming is mostly a boy interest.

It's especially after 11-12 that girls start to really take a distance from it, as the hormones kick in. That's been my experience teaching various ages of kids.



Bum Driller said:


> It's honestly retarded to assume that this would be some inborn quality in men or women. More likely it's a result of upbringing or other factors. I've lots of experience with kids of that age, and honestly boys aren't at all more interested in these things if they aren't taught, by rewarding such behaviour, to be interested in them. If they aren't taught that expressing interest in such things is regarded as good they simply react to it each according to their personal tastes(as much as little kids have consistent personal tastes), even if their parents and majority of close relatives would work in STEM fields.



People that acknowledge biology are really exceptional, yeah.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 20, 2020)

Bum Driller said:


> It's honestly retarded to assume that this would be some inborn quality in men or women. More likely it's a result of upbringing or other factors. I've lots of experience with kids of that age, and honestly boys aren't at all more interested in these things if they aren't taught, by rewarding such behaviour, to be interested in them. If they aren't taught that expressing interest in such things is regarded as good they simply react to it each according to their personal tastes(as much as little kids have consistent personal tastes), even if their parents and majority of close relatives would work in STEM fields. One day they may be really interested to hear how computer works, and the next day regard it as the most boring subject ever, preferring rather to hear about ancient Egypt or alligators.


nothing to do with rewards or conditioning, it's literally just the very basic spontanous reaction of " this is some cool shit" versus "ugh what's the point of this"

you can observe a similar (but much stronger) divide when you show kids things like weapons. doesn't matter if it's old historical stuff like swords or modern stuff like guns - little boys will love it and be all over that shit, while girls will react with indifference and sometimes even outright revulsion


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## eternal dog mongler (Jul 20, 2020)

Bum Driller said:


> This. I'm studying in a STEM-department currently, and the ratio of men to women is perhaps 4:1 or 3:1 nowadays. My mother studied the same subject three decades ago, and she has told that back then the ratio was close to 1:1. For some reason, despite the fact that there is much stronger push nowadays to get women in to STEM, their actual numbers have dropped dramatically. Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.



I'm just going to be honest. There's an insane amount of misogyny in STEM fields.

Med school was terrible for me, even though I did well. I think women see that shit and just nope out. There's kind of a wall you hit where female students do much better during high school at science courses and then you get to college where most people assume you're just gonna be a nurse.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 20, 2020)

Bum Driller said:


> This. I'm studying in a STEM-department currently, and the ratio of men to women is perhaps 4:1 or 3:1 nowadays. My mother studied the same subject three decades ago, and she has told that back then the ratio was close to 1:1. For some reason, despite the fact that there is much stronger push nowadays to get women in to STEM, their actual numbers have dropped dramatically. Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.


Is this because there’s significantly more men and the same number of women? 
On the other hand, some STEM fields like biology are now much more heavily female than they were 40 years ago. 

I am female, and I took Intro to Java, and I thought it was incredibly dull. I don’t know how people enjoy programming as a hobby. (I majored in economics, so y’all can make fun of me for picking a dumb girl major if you want). 

Men are more likely to take risks, so a man who’s mediocre at math is more likely to say ‘I’ll pick a STEM major and study really hard and it’ll work out!’ And sometimes this turns out well and sometimes this doesn’t.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 20, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> I am female, and I took Intro to Java, and I thought it was incredibly dull. I don’t know how people enjoy programming as a hobby.


same reason why people (almost exclusively men) enjoy hobbies like building model train sets, or certain genres of video games (factorio, space engineers, from the depths, modded minecraft, etc)
there's a ton of these games, the genre could accurately be named "autism simulators", their playerbase is at least 99% male, and their appeal is using some form of logic based building blocks to design and build large scale systems and projects - the more complicated, the better.

the satisfaction of spending dozens of hours dealing with autistically detailed micromanagement of building blocks until finally the whole thing comes together and works as intended, that's why (autistic) men are drawn to this stuff, and apparently women don't share this experience at all


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## Bum Driller (Jul 20, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> same reason why people (almost exclusively men) enjoy hobbies like building model train sets, or certain genres of video games (factorio, space engineers, from the depths, modded minecraft, etc)
> there's a ton of these games, the genre could accurately be named "autism simulators", their playerbase is at least 99% male, and their appeal is using some form of logic based building blocks to design and build large scale systems and projects - the more complicated, the better.
> 
> the satisfaction of spending dozens of hours dealing with autistically detailed micromanagement of building blocks until finally the whole thing comes together and works as intended, that's why (autistic) men are drawn to this stuff, and apparently women don't share this experience at all



Your views are not in agreement with reality. If you would be correct, no woman ever would go to mathematics or CS or engineering, or military, but surprise surprise, some of them do. Not as many as men, but still a significant amount.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 20, 2020)

Bum Driller said:


> Your views are not in agreement with reality. If you would be correct, no woman ever would go to mathematics or CS or engineering, or military, but surprise surprise, some of them do. Not as many as men, but still a significant amount.


exceptions don't disprove a rule


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## Hollywood Hulk Hogan (Jul 20, 2020)

If we had more STEM in elementary, middle and high school, we'd have a lot less idiots who are leading to covid spreading because they don't understand how scientific studies work


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## ditto (Jul 20, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> Men are more likely to take risks, so a man who’s mediocre at math is more likely to say ‘I’ll pick a STEM major and study really hard and it’ll work out!’ And sometimes this turns out well and sometimes this doesn’t.


Also men from Asian and Indian backgrounds being forced into it by their families. But women from those same backgrounds won't be.


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## Virgo (Jul 21, 2020)

I think maths and science are forgotten arts these days, along with encouragement for trades. I'm in IT but no way do I think I'm educated enough to pursue compsci out the gate lmao. At least my country is offering 2 years free study to anyone wanting to enter a trade after COVID.


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## Notgoodwithusernames (Jul 21, 2020)

My deal is this... if a woman or nigger wants to go into stem then they should have just  as much an opportunity to try as anyone else. However don’t go pushing stories about how we need more or less of group x in stem. Hire based on ability above all else. It doesn’t matter if the best person is a cis straight  WASP neurotypical aryan male or a black disabled tranny lesbian with autism as long as they show enough skill.


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## Bum Driller (Jul 21, 2020)

DumbDude42 said:


> exceptions don't disprove a rule



Where I study, 25% of CS students are female, like I said before. I would hardly call that an exception.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 21, 2020)

Women are much less likely to be failchildren than men. They aren’t getting that 120k a year coding job, but they are getting a job and moving out. So women’s behavior isn’t as concerning on a societal level. 

I wonder if this is the same as those IQ charts where men are more likely to be at the high or low end and womens’ IQs are in a narrower band.

I’m also skeptical of the ‘pre-secondary education is feminized!’ thing, because at least in the US, women have been the primary school teachers since the 1800s. It isn’t a new thing that little boys were expected to sit still, and Sister Mary Rita was definitely enforcing that with the ruler in 1950. When school teachers were male education was even more strict and pupils were expected to memorize Latin passages and be able to translate them, not do ‘hands on projects’. It feels like the soft bigotry of low expectations applied to men when I see people saying that boys need graphic novels because they can’t possibly read a book without pictures.


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## Gun Safety (Jul 21, 2020)

STEM is sort of overrated as some people have pointed out. Even if you get a degree in engineering or computer science there is no guarantee you're going to land yourself a job in those fields. A lot of American trained engineers and CS majors end up working in different fields, up to 50% for engineers. Mostly because a lot of the technical work is monkey work that you could get some H1B1 Indian or Chinese to do it for 2/3rd of the price that an American would want. STEM is definitely more valuable from a financial stand point than most non-STEM jobs and I'm sure it teaches you lots of personal skills that will help you later in life, but it's not like you get a STEM and then can expect to work in the field and make a big salary. You have to have motivation and/or people skills, not something that potential failsons have in abundance. That's the bigger issue than just inability.

Trade schools and living at home, on the other hand, are generally good ideas from a financial standpoint. Can make a good living with very little investment and you can generally get a job fairly easily and you don't have to worry about being replaced by automation or foreign labor. But you're not going to get a lot of people who want to go into it because it's essentially just relinquishing yourself to a life of peasantry from a social standpoint. The goal of most people going into college isn't really necessarily to make a big salary but to get a fancy degree and then move to a coastal city and work for like a non-profit or media thing, you know, 'change the world' kind of stuff. Even though they'll be broke as shit and sharing a dump with three other people they get to feel like they're important. Hard to convince a young guy that it's better to be a plumber in Boise even if by all material standards it would be better.


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## Lemmingwise (Jul 21, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> I’m also skeptical of the ‘pre-secondary education is feminized!’ thing, because at least in the US, women have been the primary school teachers since the 1800s. It isn’t a new thing that little boys were expected to sit still, and Sister Mary Rita was definitely enforcing that with the ruler in 1950. When school teachers were male education was even more strict and pupils were expected to memorize Latin passages and be able to translate them, not do ‘hands on projects’. It feels like the soft bigotry of low expectations applied to men when I see people saying that boys need graphic novels because they can’t possibly read a book without pictures


I've thought about this a lot and still give it some credence.

You have to remember there is a shift in how female teachers looked at boys.

Remember that prior to the removal of religion from our lives after the 50s / 60s, women were more right wing than men.

Then remember that they wouldn't be considered defective girls, but that there was the thought of "boys would be boys". There is some bigotry of soft expectations (part of that is coddling, part of that is removal of hierarchy in social relations between students).

But there was also room for competition in the class room, by challenging students who knew the answer and such. That has for a large part been replaced with group assignments. Group assignments allows more socially savvy students to leech off of the less socially savvy ones. Guess which are on average better at that.

Then there is also a focus on more exercises that focuses on language skills even for non-language subjects, like explain this math problem to your niece in a letter, further playing to girls strength and against boys strengths.

Then are the external factors that influence the experience in education. Perhaps most destructively, there is computergames and porn, giving  huge dopamine inflation to boys from early ages and reducing their motivation towards other persuits.

And finally there is unchecked leftwing media from early ages on.

I first encountered the idea that men should be exterminated and only a couple left alive for breeding when I was 10 years old. I was too young to estimate how it influenced me and I didn't think about it a lot, but the fact that it mostly got people to nod and go "yeah that kinda makes sense" stayed with me.

I can only imagine what kids see and hear now, that tranny stuff is filtering through.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 21, 2020)

Lemmingwise said:


> I've thought about this a lot and still give it some credence.
> 
> You have to remember there is a shift in how female teachers looked at boys.
> 
> ...


Group assignments and math word problems are terrible, I agree. Sign your son up for quiz bowl/history bowl/certamen, that’ll get your little nerd feeling adrenaline. 

I wonder if this lack of competition (outside of vidya) leads to young men not caring so much about staying at home indefinitely. No ambition to be better, to get your own place or a girlfriend.


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## Lemmingwise (Jul 21, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> Group assignments and math word problems are terrible, I agree. Sign your son up for quiz bowl/history bowl/certamen, that’ll get your little nerd feeling adrenaline.
> 
> I wonder if this lack of competition (outside of vidya) leads to young men not caring so much about staying at home indefinitely. No ambition to be better, to get your own place or a girlfriend.


It's part of the reason. More expensive housing is part of the reason. Destruction of marriage is part of the reason. The fact that women get men's resources through the state is another reason. The fact that men are failing to teach boys to be men is another reason. There's a lot of influences contributing towards it. Birth control and removal of religion may be the strongest reasons of all. This results in men and women being more materialistic in their choices due to religion. Whereas birth control first put pressure on women to use it and put out more to getting the man they want, while also removing the barriers for the most desirable men to juggle girls, so more of them end up doing that. And then when women do that, it means that more men turn into incels or at the least, don't find a woman that is worth committing too. It comes as no surprise to anyone that more promiscuous women are less desirable to commit to. And with destruction of marriage, commitment is riskier than ever. It all contributes to it.

Why did people move out of the house? To move to a university, to start a family or out of desire of luxury. The last is an effect on women, but not on men, on average. Men have little desire for it and most of attainment of luxury is a ploy to get women. They're human peacock feathers, the nests that male birds build in some species to attract females.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 21, 2020)

Lemmingwise said:


> It's part of the reason. More expensive housing is part of the reason. Destruction of marriage is part of the reason. The fact that women get men's resources through the state is another reason. The fact that men are failing to teach boys to be men is another reason. There's a lot of influences contributing towards it. Birth control and removal of religion may be the strongest reasons of all. This results in men and women being more materialistic in their choices due to religion. Whereas birth control first put pressure on women to use it and put out more to getting the man they want, while also removing the barriers for the most desirable men to juggle girls, so more of them end up doing that. And then when women do that, it means that more men turn into incels or at the least, don't find a woman that is worth committing too. It comes as no surprise to anyone that more promiscuous women are less desirable to commit to. And with destruction of marriage, commitment is riskier than ever. It all contributes to it.
> 
> Why did people move out of the house? To move to a university, to start a family or out of desire of luxury. The last is an effect on women, but not on men, on average. Men have little desire for it and most of attainment of luxury is a ploy to get women. They're human peacock feathers, the nests that male birds build in some species to attract females.


It’s also that parents are tolerating this. A working class family in a cramped house where every dollar counts isn’t going to let a grown child sit around playing vidya all day, if he isn’t bringing in disability checks. Working class families are not paying for ‘failure to launch’ programs.


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## Win98SE (Jul 22, 2020)

To address OP directly, I briefly worked at one of those programs that specifically targeted kids & teens that lived in rural areas where the pre-college STEM classes were dogshit. The course was designed to help them to get a self-start programming so they could build up a portfolio that might potentially help with college admission (fucking   but w/e.)

Parents sat in on the first few hours of the first day of each class. When we'd talk to the parents, most of them would talk at great lengths about how smart their kid was when it came to computers and how they were constantly blown away by all the cool things they were doing with them. I swear to god I heard, "He spends ALL DAY on the computer" dozens of times. At first glance it seemed like these rural areas were cultivating brilliant comp. sci nerds who would blow through the material in a day.

The reality is that 90% of them were total failures that folded 4 hours into the first day's lesson (intro to Javascript, variables, and functions.) By hour 5 they were alt-tabbing between Minecraft and whatever program we had them writing JS in. They just wanted to game, browse Reddit, or watch YouTube. When it came time to show off the work they'd done, most just claimed they accidentally deleted the code/it disappeared/or the computer fucked up in some obscure way. By day 2 we knew which students had zero interest and just let them sit and do whatever - it took too much work to get them caught up.

Of the remaining students, maybe 2 or 3 were outright amazing programmers who either already understood the material, or picked it up extremely fast. 5 to 6 struggled and needed frequent help, but could write basic programs on their own by the course's end. The rest learned "Hello World" and fucked off after that to post shit on Reddit.

When the parents came back on the last day to get their debrief, we'd have to give these awkward talks with the failsons' parents about how their kid failed to complete the lessons, and that they might consider looking into IT or other computer-based work. The fucking look of disbelief - "I'm telling you, he's on the computer all night sometimes. He has all these programs open, and he talks to people, and-" Max levels of cope, basically.

For perspective, the parents of these kids were farmers, worked in factories, or did other manual labor work for a living. They were just easily amazed at their kid's ability to somehow spend all day on a computer because they probably had a very limited idea of what you could do on a computer other than weird math shit. In reality, their failson was downloading nude Skyrim mods and shitposting on Reddit.

There were a lot of these types when I was uni. Many CS majors asked on day 1 why they had to learn all the boring shit if they just wanted to be a game developer. When told that game dev. was one of the more technical and "boring" pursuits in programming, they almost always failed downward into some kind of IT-related field or switched majors entirely. The motivation to do so was just that they sat on the computer all day gaming, so obviously they needed to get a job programming them. Just a total lack of self-awareness or any kind of drive in life.


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## Crunchy Leaf (Jul 22, 2020)

Win98SE said:


> To address OP directly, I briefly worked at one of those programs that specifically targeted kids & teens that lived in rural areas where the pre-college STEM classes were dogshit. The course was designed to help them to get a self-start programming so they could build up a portfolio that might potentially help with college admission (fucking   but w/e.)
> 
> Parents sat in on the first few hours of the first day of each class. When we'd talk to the parents, most of them would talk at great lengths about how smart their kid was when it came to computers and how they were constantly blown away by all the cool things they were doing with them. I swear to god I heard, "He spends ALL DAY on the computer" dozens of times. At first glance it seemed like these rural areas were cultivating brilliant comp. sci nerds who would blow through the material in a day.
> 
> ...


That’s pretty sad. On the other hand, I assume for a kid in that environment, getting a 9-5 air conditioned desk job doing tech support at the county courthouse/town hall/school department/hospital would be considered a pretty decent gig. But like all jobs, that requires effort. 

I roll my eyes when I see psychiatrists talking about ‘gaming addiction’, but yet there are clearly a lot of young men who spend way too much time gaming.


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## Xarpho (Jul 22, 2020)

I think it's more than STEM overpopulation, and it's not just economy or minorities/immigrants/green card holders.

Many boomers (actual baby boomers) and some "boomers" (Gen X) still assume you can can just drift in anywhere with a résumé and nice clothes, and have a reasonable chance of getting a job. It won't work. They'll either hand you an employment form which will end up in the recycling bin within 24 hours, tell you to apply online (also a black hole), or laugh you out of the building.

Trying to write letters and reach out to potential employers has a slightly better reception rate, but it hamstrings you in terms of interviews because they can smell desperation and will use that to their advantage (read: your employment will be fairly short, miserable, and poorly paid). The interviews are also all rigged, you never know what the interview is like, whether the interview is "we just need to confirm you're halfway competent and aren't crazy" or "we need to interview X people to check off a box" or anything in between. You'll fail the interview and wonder if it was something you said or the HR lady just didn't like how you look. (Group interviews WILL fall into either extreme, you're either already hired or you're meant as fodder for the people that are hired...plus it will inevitably involve some group project with a total stranger)

Connections are everything. The best way is to be good friends or have your dad be good friends with someone with influence in a company (or maybe your dad _is_ that person), but most people don't have that luxury. But it's just not connections to get into prestigious industries based in California or NYC, it's literally everything, including most professional sciences (of which I am a bachelor of, but instead I currently deliver pizza in my late 20s and live with my parents). Some of said "professional sciences" do have internships, but they're hard to get into.

Compounding that is job listings with unrealistic expectations, and even if you take the bait to think it's just to ward off plebs, you just get filtered by algorithms because it doesn't "look good". (Listen to any LinkedIn ad, and see how highly antagonistic to job seekers). This means that to get noticed, you basically have to lie ("why yes, I _am_ trilingual and have been working consistent jobs since I was 16") which is not going to look good in any professional sense.

The worst part of all this is that because you didn't find a job soon after college or whatever, boomers and Xers are completely oblivious to the very real challenges and just think you're not trying hard enough.


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## abacussedout (Jul 23, 2020)

There are also opportunities to volunteer in just about every field. Like setting up an online donation platform for a local nonprofit, or collecting sample data and coding some charts for your town's parks foundation, creating a banner ad and initiating an "online marketing" campaign for a school fundraiser, etc. etc. that add lines/time to your resume/Linkedin. Lots of online volunteering and pro bono work in every STEM field is available these days...a lot of it is mundane, but it's experience. Also GitHub portfolios as others have mentioned. Just don't bullshit or exaggerate, folks see through that. You can still be maximizing your time during the pizza delivery years.


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## Stalphos Johnson (Jul 23, 2020)

Saint Alphonsus said:


> This is a cope I've been hearing for over a decade. As I said in the previous post, we're entering an era where also M.D. grads are finding themselves locked out of the practice of medicine. If you have a degree that is traditionally geared towards a certain profession and you have to fight hundreds of your peers to get into that profession: surprise, you're in an asset bubble.
> 
> Coping isn't bad, but at the same time, you can't deny that the bill of goods you were sold was a counterfeit.
> 
> As a bit of an aside, The rise in "pH.D. only" positions in Big Pharma and Big Tech is largely because the gatekeepers are exploiting the credential glut.


While a bit late, I can comment on the M.D. grads. My perspective is from the D.O. side and there are 3 main problems affecting both. I have a family member who runs a residency program for primary care and I've learned a few things as for why these graduates are not being able to practice. 

The first is that there is an insane amount of foreign competitions for residencies. My relative got over 500 applications for a small primary care program and when filtering for only US citizens that passed their boards cut down the applicants down to 50. Typically, this is narrowed down further to about 20 or fewer applicants for interviews.

 Another problem is that there are no longer D.O. and M.D. specific residency programs. Recently the AMA and the AOA opened up the residencies so that anyone with an M.D or D.O. degree can apply to any residency program in the country. In effect, this has increased competition for both M.D. graduates and D.O. graduates as the amount of candidates for every residency program has increased. My relative has selected more M.D.'s than D.O.'s since this program merger while previously only being able to select D.O's. 

The final problem is overspecialization and being unwilling to work outside of specific places. There is a shortage of primary care physicians in the US right now, especially in rural areas. My relative has gotten a lot of unsolicited job offers from health networks in primarily rural states (ND, Montana, Idaho, etc.) offering major pay raises, benefits, and student loan repayments. Despite offers like this from a lot of rural health networks, there is still a shortage of primary care physicians and it is still projected to exist for the foreseeable future. If you think the amount of applications for primary care is big, that is nothing compared to the amount of applications for certain specialties like dermatology. These competitive specialties also exist primarily in suburban or urban areas in the US and tend to have fewer slots open for residents. Many residents who were unable to land a residency spot in one of these specialties would probably have had better luck applying for a rural primary care physician residency, but are unwilling to consider primary care or don't want to give up living in the cities or suburbs. All of these factors have led to increased numbers of M.D. graduates being unable to find work after graduation. This has affected D.O. graduates, but not as much, as D.O. graduates tend to choose primary care residencies more often than M.D. graduates.


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## DumbDude42 (Jul 23, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> I’m also skeptical of the ‘pre-secondary education is feminized!’ thing, because at least in the US, women have been the primary school teachers since the 1800s. It isn’t a new thing that little boys were expected to sit still, and Sister Mary Rita was definitely enforcing that with the ruler in 1950. When school teachers were male education was even more strict and pupils were expected to memorize Latin passages and be able to translate them, not do ‘hands on projects’. It feels like the soft bigotry of low expectations applied to men when I see people saying that boys need graphic novels because they can’t possibly read a book without pictures.


what boys need is to be collectively kept in line by strictly enforced discipline.
if you want them to learn, then you need them to take what the teacher says seriously, and for that you need them to take the teacher himself seriously. and they're not gonna do that if the teacher is a pushover who lets the kids walk all over him and act like monkeys in his classroom.



> Women are much less likely to be failchildren than men. They aren’t getting that 120k a year coding job, but they are getting a job and moving out. So women’s behavior isn’t as concerning on a societal level.


women can go through life on a mediocre or low tier job just fine, or even on no job at all. they'll have no problems finding a man who will gladly take care of her, let her move in with him, etc, so it's all fine with them either way

situation is very different for men. if you're in a mediocre or low tier job, your prospects with women are dogshit. if you don't have a career that gives you good social status or big income then you're gonna be borderline undateable and lonely throughout your entire life. for guys who realize this, it's extremely demoralizing, and probably a huge part of what makes them go "fuck it" and NEET out


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## Lemmingwise (Jul 23, 2020)

Win98SE said:


> To address OP directly, I briefly worked at one of those programs that specifically targeted kids & teens that lived in rural areas where the pre-college STEM classes were dogshit. The course was designed to help them to get a self-start programming so they could build up a portfolio that might potentially help with college admission (fucking   but w/e.)
> 
> Parents sat in on the first few hours of the first day of each class. When we'd talk to the parents, most of them would talk at great lengths about how smart their kid was when it came to computers and how they were constantly blown away by all the cool things they were doing with them. I swear to god I heard, "He spends ALL DAY on the computer" dozens of times. At first glance it seemed like these rural areas were cultivating brilliant comp. sci nerds who would blow through the material in a day.
> 
> ...


This is a story of you failing to match children's aptitudes with learning material that matched. There's plenty of computerwork to be done that isn't all programming.

I started kids off with a finished program to modify. About the same percentage of kids end up building stuff from the ground up, but there is plenty to learn and do that isn't writing code from scratch.


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## Saint Alphonsus (Jul 23, 2020)

Stalphos Johnson said:


> While a bit late, I can comment on the M.D. grads. My perspective is from the D.O. side and there are 3 main problems affecting both. I have a family member who runs a residency program for primary care and I've learned a few things as for why these graduates are not being able to practice.
> 
> The first is that there is an insane amount of foreign competitions for residencies. My relative got over 500 applications for a small primary care program and when filtering for only US citizens that passed their boards cut down the applicants down to 50. Typically, this is narrowed down further to about 20 or fewer applicants for interviews.
> 
> ...


Increasingly I'm convinced that academia and medicine are part of the globalist cabal. The whole thing reeks of a Gnostic mystery cult.


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## Stalphos Johnson (Jul 23, 2020)

Saint Alphonsus said:


> Increasingly I'm convinced that academia and medicine are part of the globalist cabal. The whole thing reeks of a Gnostic mystery cult.


I would certainly agree with academia. A lot of schools are heavily dependent on foreign donations and students. In May, the Department of Education found billions of dollars of unreported donations to US universities from China and other countries (Link). Within medical schools, much of the current rhetoric comes from the PhD's who have spent most of their lives and academia and there is a lot less from the professors who actually practiced medicine.

Medicine is more complex. Parts of medicine like Big Pharma are definitely in bed with globalism, along with doctors and other health professionals that shill for them and/or are part of the government. One of the more prominent examples of this is how pharmaceutical companies test new medications. They test a lot of their newer medications is very poor parts of the world, like Sub-Saharan Africa where they can easily dodge the strict requirements for clinical trials in the US and Europe. Individual health networks are harder to gauge. Most hospital networks in the US are still non-profit and tend to be focused on specific regions and states, and most health care professionals are not globalists. Insurance is a massive mess that I don't really want to touch.

The thing that concerns me the most about the direction of the health care industry is the increasing centralization. It's getting harder and harder to find a doctor who runs their own practice unless they are in a very high paying specialty such as cosmetic surgery. Increased top down regulation such as Obamacare has made it more expensive for a doctor to run their own practice and have forced many to join healthcare networks in order to continue to practice medicine. Examples have been the electronic medical record requirement, which required many practices to pay to convert all the physical records to digital, storage, enterprise level software, equipment, security, and contract with IT staff. They also have to maintain HIPPA compliance which dramatically increases the cost of all of these requirements. Naturally, the AMA and AOA have been worthless in trying to combat this, and have been focused on much of the Current Year agenda, along with the AMA trying to merge M.D.'s and D.O.'s with little resistance from the AOA.

I'm not sure what would be able to stop this centralization. Repealing Obamacare and reducing regulations would slow it down, but not halt it. Centralization will result the US healthcare system becoming an even bigger mess that it already is and you will likely see more and more problems with medicine as this centralization increases.


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## Win98SE (Jul 23, 2020)

Lemmingwise said:


> This is a story of you failing to match children's aptitudes with learning material that matched. There's plenty of computerwork to be done that isn't all programming.



As mentioned in the post, we referred them to other fields in IT/computer-based work as alternatives, all of which were outside the scope of the class (Intro to Programming.) But what we're talking about here is a larger issue of not being able to follow very clearly-stated instructions, something that would probably follow them wherever they'd decide to go in their career. Sure, maybe their focus would be sharper in a field more relevant to them, but I can only use the speed at which they lost interest as an indicator of something else being at play.


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## Beard_Chan (Jul 26, 2020)

Crunchy Leaf said:


> There are absolutely great software engineers who are self taught. Won’t deny that. But saying that over and over tells kids hey, all you need is a ‘learn to code’ book, you don’t need a formal education to be making 100k, and for most people that is not true. (I am including trade school and apprenticeships here in my definition of formal education). Really smart people will always be successful. If those self taught engineers were born in 1200 they would be brilliant theologians instead. The average 100 IQ person? No. Like sure they can get a code monkey or IT helpdesk job, but not the big bucks they’re imagining. Now, if the person is from a world where most people have a low paying retail job then IT helpdesk is a step up, but if they’re from a middle class or higher world then it isn’t.
> 
> Personally I found college easier than high school, and part of that is that I wasn’t overwhelmed. In high school I had to wake up really early and I had six classes every day with homework every day. In college you have more room to breathe.
> 
> Another issue is absolutely terrible writing and communication skills. Being a native English speaker is a huge advantage, yet I have met many native speakers who attended ostensibly good high schools who could not write well. It’s because of standardized testing, where short answer and timed essays are all you write. There needs to be way more writing in high schools, and not solely about books.



That is a good point, there are ceilings with intelligence. I've seen it in my peers, trying to teach them something I consider simple as best as I can yet they just can't pick it up. The thing is though you don't have to be smart to make money. I know plenty of sales reps and marketers who aren't the smartest, but just know their craft and dealing with people really well.


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## Beard_Chan (Jul 26, 2020)

Harvey Danger said:


> Bring up "acting white" in front of the wrong people, and prepare to get an earful about white supremacist myths.  Even though it's not a myth, it's a well-documented cultural attitude that sprang up around the time of busing and integration in the 1960s.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Degree is nice for IT / DevOps / Cloud Engineering but not necessary. The cloud is the future, and if you can get a certification or two learning online, a project you built, and talk about the details of it confidently you can get a good paying job or get your foot in the door and start getting that precious real world experience. IT branches off into so many directions and touches so many things in the software world, just don't let yourself stay in IT. Your goal should be DevOps or Cloud Engineer. 

In this field I can say college alone doesn't prep someone for the industry. All the good people I've hired for these type of positions also did stuff on their own outside of school (cloud certified, personal projects, etc). I can tell after a 5 minute conversation whether someone is competent or not.


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## Liber Pater (Aug 5, 2020)

I really like threads like this that get into discussions about careers, workplace experiences, the job market, etc.
I wish there was a dedicated board for this sort of thing. I see a fair number of threads in this general subject area, but they are scattered across various different boards.


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