# Good examples of "strong women" in fiction.



## Slimy Time (Nov 26, 2021)

Genuine question to throw out here. Media now love to try an portray the "strong feminist woman" in fiction, and they always seem to cock it up. 

Are there any examples of well written "strong women" and what makes them successful compared to the trash attempts we see today?

I think in woke media, "strong women" are either Mary Sues, or they are "strong women" at the expense of male characters, thoughts?


----------



## REGENDarySumanai (Nov 26, 2021)

Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley.


----------



## Marissa Moira (Nov 26, 2021)

All strong women are fictional.


----------



## The Empirical Bogey (Nov 26, 2021)

We have a thread about this:





						Well Written Female Characters
					

(i was gonna ask this in the mary sue thread but i think this extends beyond mary sues)  who do you think is a good female character?  what would you like to see in a female character that makes her well written? what should writers avoid when writing female characters?  i ask, because there...




					kiwifarms.is


----------



## Just A Butt (Nov 26, 2021)




----------



## Krokodil Overdose (Nov 26, 2021)

Lady Eboshi, from _Princess Mononoke_. What makes her strong? She's a capable warrior, a fearless leader, and has the ambition to create her own town and the wherewithal to see that vision through. On the other hand, she's not perfect, and her ambitions drive much of the conflict: going to war with the forest spirits and ultimately allying herself with Sano causes Ashitaka's curse, the destruction of her town, and the loss of her arm.

She's strong but well written because she's driven and immensely capable, but that leads her into hubris and conflict that ultimately costs her dearly. It's what distinguishes her from the stronk whamman of today: their old enemy, the consequences of their own actions.


----------



## BlueArmedDevil (Nov 26, 2021)

The whole Honorverse series even though it's just a gender bent Nelson/Hornblower.


----------



## Salubrious (Nov 26, 2021)

I feel like Officer Louis doesn't get enough credit.  Imagine being Robocop's partner and you're 100% human.


----------



## Zero Day Defense (Nov 26, 2021)

> Media now love to try an portray the "strong feminist woman" in fiction, and they always seem to cock it up.



They cock it up because they're not trying to write compelling characters or good fiction-- they're writing "strong women" for the sake of bucking some trend, and accordingly warp the rest of the narrative (as well as other characters) in order to accommodate and accentuate their "strongness".

Also because feminism does not, and never has, promoted strength of character. It has always been the reliance on men to get things without having to be held accountable for their use.


----------



## Just Another Apocalypse (Nov 26, 2021)

Xena. Wonder Woman for the 3 stooges fans.


----------



## Poppavalyim Andropoff (Nov 26, 2021)

Danny Sofer from The Shield


----------



## Rei is shit (Nov 26, 2021)

Emmanuelle ;^)


----------



## Ted_Breakfast (Nov 26, 2021)

The Queen of Hearts was a great 90's Batman villainess who didn't rely on sex appeal at all. So of course modern Woke DC pretends she doesn't exist, but if they do bring her back, she'll join the League of Situationally Heroic Female Bisexuals that dominate Batman books. And because she's a redhead, she'll be black.


----------



## Dyn (Nov 26, 2021)

Poppavalyim Andropoff said:


> Danny Sofer from The Shield


Wyms and Rawling too, and that Armenian mafia bitch was ruthless as hell.


----------



## Open Window Maniac (Nov 26, 2021)

Dors Venabili from the_ Foundation_ series by Isaac Asimov was pretty cool.


----------



## DumbDude42 (Nov 26, 2021)




----------



## Marissa Moira (Nov 26, 2021)

Alice from Super Jail


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Nov 26, 2021)




----------



## Fentanyl Floyd (Nov 26, 2021)

Rosechu


----------



## WebLurker (Nov 26, 2021)

Terry Pratchett always wrote women as actual people: sometimes weak, sometimes strong, human even when they weren't. I always appreciated his works. But I'm kinda glad he's not around now to see how the BBC have tried to ruin the world he created.

Babylon 5 has some amazing female characters. Susan Ivanova being my favourite.




​


----------



## Slimy Time (Nov 26, 2021)

Genuine question to throw out here. Media now love to try an portray the "strong feminist woman" in fiction, and they always seem to cock it up. 

Are there any examples of well written "strong women" and what makes them successful compared to the trash attempts we see today?

I think in woke media, "strong women" are either Mary Sues, or they are "strong women" at the expense of male characters, thoughts?


----------



## Lunete (Nov 26, 2021)

There's Frøya from Norsemen. She was pretty great.


----------



## Zero Day Defense (Nov 26, 2021)

Lunete said:


> There's Frøya from Norsemen. She was pretty great.


Can't be that great if she has an empty set in her name.


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Nov 27, 2021)

Just A Butt said:


>


They should have given her a strong yet tasteful Hillary Clinton pantsuit.


----------



## Billy Beer (Nov 27, 2021)

Lara croft?


----------



## murdered meat bag (Nov 27, 2021)

anne frank. she only failed because someone sold her out.


----------



## Herr Flick (Nov 27, 2021)

Britomart the knight from _The Faerie Queene_ by Edmund Spenser.


----------



## okwhyamidoingthis (Nov 27, 2021)

It depends on what you mean by strenght: there is this liberal feminism view of strenght, which is completely artificial and self-righteous, and there is the...'older' version of female strenght in ficction, mostly literature, deeply influenced by many different sacred texts, from Vedas to the Bible. I belive only this last one is worth mentioning. In this view, male heroism is usually motivated by _getting something they need in a hostile world_. That's why physical strenght and achievement - action - is so important (either for ficction but mostly in moral religious tales of manhood). Whereas female heroism is linked to _*preserving something worth from a hostile world. *_

In most classic fiction, the female hero is moral, gentle, self-sacrifices for children or for anyone weaker than her, is mocked by her environment, taken for granted, her hopes are consistently mocked or disencouraged and she still does her daily duties, even for the vilain's benefit. Her journey is more about _preserving her heart against mundanism, not conceding to bitterness, being proven right against  all the ones who tried to make fun of her goodness. _

Cinderella keeps cleaning her house and taking care of animals and everything after her stepmother and her stepsisters not only steal her inheritence, but make a slave of her. She still dreams of her future and is mocked, not only for dreaming, but for being dutyful and decent. T_he more Cinderella is good for her stepmother and sisters, the more they hate her. The more they envy a girl they claim to be beneath them. The more they take her decency, sacrifice, goodness as weakness. _

Good female heroes are about _goodness being taken for weakness and then proven to be strenght at the end. _
That's why fairy tales protagonists are, in fact, heroes: they do their duty, keep faithful and truthful (Belle, from Beauty and the Beast, is said to confront the Beast's unkindess, lazyness and bitterness against life and other people and employess in many versions of the story), endure loneliness, violence, mockery and are rewarded for the courage to be outcast and loving in the end. The powerful ones who misdeeded them are displaced against all rational odds, because evilness can be a short term resource, but it falls by itself at some point. Fairy tales teach girls _endurance and decency_, teach them that there are no shortcuts in life and that any shortcut will bring its own demise, no matter how pragmatic, utilitarist, secret or justified it seemed to be at the time it was taken. 
So, just as an exercise, imagine a world where girls are growing up without listening to classical fairy tales or listening to the corrupted versions for the sake of 'freedom', but actually gloryfiing gross materialism and worldly victory - how would them turn out like?

Fairy tale protagonists are always said to be incredibly beautiful because - there are evolutive reasons, but to keep it short - our consciousness associates beauty to being good. If the character of a person could be seen concretely, materially, it would show in his/her body. That's why YES girls wait to be called beautiful, and telling them other things won't have any effect: this association is in our genetic and epigenetic imprint. That's why men are so drawn (dangerously) to female beauty (a material proxy - which can be faked - for a transcendental urge), and that's why they don't really love what they don't find beautiful. That's why prince charming is also said to be handsome, and that's why non-Western cultures also have myths about sweet and beautiful female protagonists, as in yoruba mythology, for example.

In this sense, you can look at Bible stories such as Ruth - who stood by the side of her mother-in-law after she became alone, and kept working under the sun everyday among her society's despicable ones, until she was found by a rich and decent man called Boaz - of even Parvati/Kali - who turns from Shiva's loving housewife to the negative feminine's most clear archetype, Kali, as she battles demons while he meditates. When he finds her, she is unable to stop killing demons and drinking their blood. She turned into literally another person after battle. So he lays on her foot and she is suddenly aware of how much she _hardened, armoured.

Parvati was being helpful, dutyful, she didn't want to disturb his medidation (didn't want him to suffer) so she went to battle - but she is a woman, and a woman can NEVER EVER LOSE HER HEART. _As Shiva lays on her feet, she is reminded of a husband's love and presence, of how she doesn't need to be the one engaging in violence _no matter how good she is on it _ (and boy, the story says the same people who asked for her help went running to Shiva to stop her, such a warrior she became from a sweet housewife), and that no worldly achievent is worth losing herself. Her husband, part of Hinduism's trinity (that means: not a regular guy, but big and powerful authority) lays at her feet. Nothing he says can be listened due to her pain controlling her, so he shows he is willing to give up his power for her to be herself again, to disarmour, to smile and laugh. To show her s_he can, but she doesn't need to go to battle. _Love makes us all submit, wheather by respect for the loved one's decisions (religious traditions prescribe women to love this way) or by prioritizing our loved ones' comfort (religious traditions men to love this way). When Parvati remembered her husband prioritizes her above any battle, although he is happy and thankful for her strenght, she felt free to _disarm_ and be herself again. In doing it, she felt free - because bitterness and hardness are a woman's worst self-imprisionment. If you need, go to battle, but never ever get bitter.

To end this post, I would check for slavic ficction. They view womanhood, is seems, as just another way of being human: women face the same if not more shit than men, and the way out for both is always the same - love, self-sacrifice, acceptance of life's pain, humour. Female and male heroes are incredibly similar: look at Tarkovsky's Stalker, and how careful, kind, sweet and decent he is in contrast with the other (mundane, vulgar) characters, and how feminine he seems in contrast to the male western heroes (themselves a parody of manhood I would not allow my son to abide in).

In literature, the one that first comes to mind is Sonya Semyonova Marmeladov, from Crime and Punishment: Dostoievski makes her fall and fall and fall in the world's eyes just to use her as THE moral example of the story, the only TRUE hero (as Raskolnikov is pretty dazzled and silly - and it seems Dosto hates all the characters but Sonya, and who could blame him). He uses Sonya to reminds us that e_verybody has a fucking choice, no matter what happened to you (among other purposes, obviously). _

Mosfilm movies depict many female characters that are amazing.  In 'The Cranes are Flying', we see a female version of 'hero is such a pain in the ass at the beggining, thinks he is so smart, loses miserably and finally becomes adult'. This is the overcoming of childhood arch so common in many mythologies.

Scarlett O'Hara never quits being such a pain in the ass, never grows and therefore is always suffering (rightfully so, in the movie and in the book - she was the first of a lineage of american female characters that was morally ambiguous. Bad, bad societal sign, because 'maybe being bad is not so bad after all'). Suzanna, Elizabeth Taylor's character in 'The Tree of Life' is the Scarlett who finally becomes adult after being proven wrong and losing a lot, a much better example and character.

Veronika is another example of overcoming the puella archetype, the female infancy, after hardship. The last scene KILLS ME everytime: it's the moment she must decide - Will she be bitter forever? Will she become a widow of her failed dreams? Or will she let them go, forgive herself and others, and just like the cranes are flying back after the end of the war, she will come back to real life with an open heart? Will she define her life for her past? Or will she really open up to what the future holds with no grudge or resentment, with a smile on her face?

It's funny that, the more hostile a land is to its people, the more it's association to a good mother remains. You can see this in the Great Motherland, in Russia, or in Pachamama, in the Andes mountains. No matter their current religions, these peoples developed a kind of respect for femalenessness - a realism in dealing with its flaws and dangers, and a smiling gratitude to its uniqueness and care - and I belive it shows in their imaginative universe.

The 'goodbye-puella: from spoiled to unresentful adult' journey for women is better described in Erich Neumann's 'Amor and Psyche', if you want more info.

Here is 'The Cranes are Flying', subtitled in English and Spanish.





edit: spelling errors.


----------



## SandyCat (Nov 27, 2021)

I liked Ahsoka Tano from the animated Star Wars Clone Wars series.

Whereas Rey is a massive mary sue in the films who was instantly good at everything and had everything handed to her on a silver platter and the personality of a plank of wood, we got to see Ahsoka go from a inexperienced character making mistakes (as would be expected for a padiwan in starwars) to a competent jedi that can hold her own against the likes of Darth Vader and Maul

The reason why this clip got almost 8 million views is because people actually give a fuck about the character and her writing unlike mary sue Rey:


----------



## StyrofoamFridge (Nov 27, 2021)

Hot Cup of Joe said:


> Lara croft?


If we're talking about Lara Croft before 2013. She was powerful, educated, iconic, independent, and sexy then. Square Enix turned her into a dull, whiny bitch who ruins everything. The destruction of Lara's character had the opposite effect of "enpowerment", as it was done to appease the vocal minority of femcels. They don't care that Lara is an ugly crybaby, as long as it makes men unhappy they are satisfied.

Honorable mentions:
Jodie from Beyond: Two Souls is another character I like. She's very enduring even without the spirit connected to her, and the angst she displays through her adolescence is realistic.

Kendl Johnson from GTA: San Andreas. Clementine, Carol, and Michone from The Walking Dead franchise. Olivia Benson from Law & Order. Sarah Manning, Helena, and their clones from Orphan Black.


----------



## IAmNotAlpharius (Nov 27, 2021)

Ms Trunchbull aka the principal from Matilda.


----------



## Image Reactions (Nov 27, 2021)




----------



## BoobWhiskers (Nov 27, 2021)

There's an absolute shitload of legitimately good female main characters in fiction, and having grown up reading them I'm always mystified when feminists start screeching about this supposed void of woman protagonists.

Some that came to mind off the top of my head:

Pretty much anything Tamora Pierce has ever written. Lots of female knights, mages, spymasters, nobles, commoners; plenty of demonstration that there are different ways to be female and different ways to be strong and any and all of them are just as acceptable as any other.

Anne McCafferey's Pern books had lots of strong women. Lessa is the obvious immediate example but I always liked Menolly the best since (when recently rereading) Lessa was a bit of a brat sometimes. Also fuck yeah fire lizards.

Patricia Wrede wrote a great series called _Dealing With Dragons. _Cimorene is a smart, fun princess who didn't want to get married and decided to solve the problem by going to be a dragon's housekeeper instead (and met a nice man by the end anyways). The aforementioned dragon, Kazul. Morwen, who's a very sensible witch perpetually having to haul everyone's bacon out of the fire.

Naomi Novik has a couple of very good Slavic folklore flavored books in the form of _Uprooted_ and _Spinning_ _Silver_ . Kind of ties into what @WhyAmIdoingThis  said above, folklore from that part of the world tends to have strong, smart women because idk otherwise you get eaten by a bear or something.

Those are just the first that spring to mind but there's absolute fuckloads of good examples out there. Gender doesn't matter, just look for good writers and some of them happen to write good character who happen to be female.


----------



## Resunoit (Jan 21, 2022)

Jill Valentine.


Although I’m not talking about the obnoxious, “strong” feminist version of Jill in RE3 remake. I’m talking about her other appearances. A kind Jill who is also a badass.


----------



## Harbinger of Kali Yuga (Jan 21, 2022)

Circe by Madeline Miller is basically a retelling of the Greek myth of Circe except re-written as strong protagonist while remaining as faithful to the setting and genre as possible.  Definitely worth checking out.


----------



## Just A Fat Round Bird (Jan 21, 2022)

Nothing specific comes to mind but a strong female character is one that doesnt try to be a male character. All those people write is a male character in a female body, not a female character. Its quite tiresome..


----------



## Harbinger of Kali Yuga (Jan 21, 2022)

Just A Fat Round Bird said:


> Nothing specific comes to mind but a strong female character is one that doesnt try to be a male character. All those people write is a male character in a female body, not a female character. Its quite tiresome..


Your avatar is mesmerizing me.

Circe as in my example above is an example of a female character not written like a male character.  I think the author was quite conscious of that while writing.

That's something that always got me with the feminists.  They want women to have an equal place at the table, but then they go on to subtlety adopt the assumptions of what they label "patriarchy" and seem to view actual femininity with contempt as they go on to idealize male body types in women, de-emphasize female secondary sex characteristics, and tend to look down on the most defining feature of being female: being able to give birth.  Now, I'm not someone who wants kids and doesn't like them, but a lot of modern feminists, especially the anti-TERF ones, sure don't seem to like what women actually are and instead want to make them something else.  With all the mentally ill men that want to become women, I guess it's no surprise that this kind of feminism wants to just masculinize women instead of getting people to appreciate and equally prioritize actual femininity in our society.  They spend so much time arguing that men and women's brains are completely the same and some have even seriously suggested that body strength is a result of socialization!


----------



## Shidoen (Jan 21, 2022)

The woman in my dreams.


----------



## Robophobic (Jan 21, 2022)

I really liked Izumi Curtis from Fullmetal Alchemist. She kicks ass but she still keeps her femininity.


----------



## Zero Day Defense (Jan 21, 2022)

Robophobic said:


> I really liked Izumi Curtis from Fullmetal Alchemist. She kicks ass* but she still keeps her femininity. *


N--no, she definitely lost that. 

...along with some other organs.


----------



## La_Diabla (Jan 21, 2022)

Beatrix Kiddo




Varla


----------



## Slimy Time (Nov 26, 2021)

Genuine question to throw out here. Media now love to try an portray the "strong feminist woman" in fiction, and they always seem to cock it up. 

Are there any examples of well written "strong women" and what makes them successful compared to the trash attempts we see today?

I think in woke media, "strong women" are either Mary Sues, or they are "strong women" at the expense of male characters, thoughts?


----------



## SSj_Ness (Jan 22, 2022)

I posted about this before in the other topic, but the kind of answer you're looking for is a character like Maria from House in Fata Morgana. She's a believable enough "strong" woman thanks to a well realized scene in the game. There's this really cool song that accompanies it too, it elevates it and the lyrics are a treat. She looks cool during it.


----------



## Caddchef (Jan 22, 2022)

Noi from Dorohedoro, she's basically the backbone of the En Family.


----------

