# Are Anti-Fascist and Liberals becoming the Monsters they so despise?



## Vex Overmind (Jun 28, 2016)

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-neo-nazi-stabbed-20160626-snap-htmlstory.html

After reading this article, it perturbs me that a group that espouses rhetoric such as all people are equal, unless if you happen to have views that contradict or is the outright opposite, are somehow inferior to theirs. Seven people were stabbed and beaten to death by a provoked mob of leftist. Sure, I know that there are white supremacist groups who want to become the next Montana Militia or Sam Hyde's, but these Anti-Fascist groups are going to become more of a threat to others that simply just have differing opinions.


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## autisticdragonkin (Jun 28, 2016)

That would imply that they are getting better. They used to have bad ideas with a good methodology whereas the right used to have good ideas with bad methodology, now both have bad methodology but only the right has good ideas


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## Sailor_Jupiter (Jun 28, 2016)

I foresee the division in the country getting worse and worse- possibly until a minor war breaks out.  It's so depressing and exhausting...  I remember when I was growing up all the children from different groups played together and didn't fight each other.  To think, it's become this.  I've realized now that no political group can stop it,  and politics don't really matter anymore.  The country's in a mess.  TBH I'm just hoping to get sick with something fatal and die before it gets much worse.  Watching this happen to my country has almost completely broken me.  I don't even have the energy to get out of bed some days...  I grew up in the Deep South but we never had things like nazi rallies or leftist riots when I was growing up.  And since most of this is racial there's no place left in the world for biracials like my family.  It's just so unnerving.  I wish people could just get along.  It's so awful.  I'm just so tired of all of this. I wish I could just fall asleep for a few decades until it's over.


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## Online Violence (Jun 28, 2016)

The world is, for all the awful shit that still happens, better today by any metric than at any point in the past. This shit and much worse happened when you were young, more often and to a greater degree, you just didn't see it.
The advent of the Information Age has just made the world a much, much smaller place, and it magnifies the dark underbelly of humanity to an extent most people would not have been aware of, and still aren't. You still have to have a sort of sick fascination, or drive for knowledge, or ambition, or some other reason, professional or personal, for "looking into the void", so to speak, to confront the reality of human nature. There's also more pointless distractions and possibilities for escapism than ever before, into more and more isolated containments, further and further removed from a common reality


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## autisticdragonkin (Jun 28, 2016)

Online Violence said:


> The world is, for all the awful shit that still happens, better today by any metric than at any point in the past. This shit and much worse happened when you were young, more often and to a greater degree, you just didn't see it.
> The advent of the Information Age has just made the world a much, much smaller place, and it magnifies the dark underbelly of humanity to an extent most people would not have been aware of, and still aren't. You still have to have a sort of sick fascination, or drive for knowledge, or ambition, or some other reason, professional or personal, for "looking into the void", so to speak, to confront the reality of human nature. There's also more pointless distractions and possibilities for escapism than ever before, into more and more isolated containments, further and further removed from a common reality


I do believe though that since the advent of the new left liberals have been much more dogmatic than they were previously due to back then more just being against monarchy and dictatorship but perfectly OK with other social practices that were not antidemocratic


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## KingGeedorah (Jun 28, 2016)

I can't wait for Brown Shirts to be in again.


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## Online Violence (Jun 28, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> I do believe though that since the advent of the new left liberals have been much more dogmatic than they were previously due to back then more just being against monarchy and dictatorship but perfectly OK with other social practices that were not antidemocratic



That's completely normal, they've been in power for a while. They went from "rebels" to being the establishment. It's just the pendulum swinging. If/When this current wave of disatisfaction reaches a point where it becomes the new status quo, it will be just as entrenched and unwilling to give up power.


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## AnOminous (Jun 28, 2016)

Vex Overmind said:


> http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-neo-nazi-stabbed-20160626-snap-htmlstory.html
> 
> After reading this article, it perturbs me that a group that espouses rhetoric such as all people are equal, unless if you happen to have views that contradict or is the outright opposite, are somehow inferior to theirs. Seven people were stabbed and beaten to death by a provoked mob of leftist. Sure, I know that there are white supremacist groups who want to become the next Montana Militia or Sam Hyde's, but these Anti-Fascist groups are going to become more of a threat to others that simply just have differing opinions.



Fascists and anti-fascist hooligan groups both just like fighting in the streets and politics is the excuse.  This is why these antifa groups follow around Nazis like hippies follow the Dead, if hippies hated the Dead and wanted to beat up Jerry Garcia.


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## The Nothingness (Jun 28, 2016)

Take a look at what happened to Trump supporters in San Jose and the amount of spin that was done to make the Trump supporters the agitators especially the woman who was cornered and had stuff thrown at her including an egg.


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## Wallace (Jun 28, 2016)

Online Violence said:


> That's completely normal, they've been in power for a while. They went from "rebels" to being the establishment. It's just the pendulum swinging. If/When this current wave of disatisfaction reaches a point where it becomes the new status quo, it will be just as entrenched and unwilling to give up power.



Eliminationist rhetoric is also on the rise on the left. The other side opposes you not because they have a different opinion than yours, but because they are _evil_. You cannot negotiate with or compromise with evil, only eliminate it. Ten years ago, Fox News was doing it to liberals, and they made a shit-ton of money by peddling outrage. It's not surprising that other media outlets followed suit.


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## Alberto Balsalm (Jun 29, 2016)

I've heard people justify the incident simply because the victims were Nazis, and Nazis deserve everything coming to them. In truth, it's just idiotic. Trying to suppress their speech with violence only gives them more ammo for their persecution complex. Let them express their views loud and clear, and that will discredit them much faster than anyone on the opposition possibly could.


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## millais (Jun 29, 2016)

Antifas and anarchists are always the first people to start throwing petrol bombs and bricks at demo marches. They were the people leading the anti-austerity riots in Spain, Greece, and the other Southern Eurozone countries when the whole Euro Crisis started a few years ago.


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## AnOminous (Jun 29, 2016)

millais said:


> Antifas and anarchists are always the first people to start throwing petrol bombs and bricks at demo marches. They were the people leading the anti-austerity riots in Spain, Greece, and the other Southern Eurozone countries when the whole Euro Crisis started a few years ago.



Both of them are also just as likely to be sloppy drunks and to drag innocent bystanders into their bullshit. 

Fuck both of them.


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## Begemot (Jun 29, 2016)

I'm biased because I'm right-wing, but yes, there is more black and white polarisation, certainly in America where voting isn't compulsory and the centre is drowned out the extremes both parties have to entice (Though the democrats under Hillary look an awful lot like Rockefeller Republicans with some slivers of identity politics added on.)

http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/political-polarization/

Even if Mencius Moldbug turned out to be a sperg somewhat, the neoreaction concept of a cathedral, an internecine mass of interrelated interests as opposed to a conspiracy still bears some fruit, I feel. Look at the tribalism inherent in Brexit. It's an emotive issue, not a factual discussion.


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## Male Idiot (Jun 29, 2016)

Yes, they are.


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## The 25th Cyberman (Jun 29, 2016)




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## AnOminous (Jun 29, 2016)

chekovia said:


> Even if Mencius Moldbug turned out to be a sperg somewhat, the neoreaction concept of a cathedral, an internecine mass of interrelated interests as opposed to a conspiracy still bears some fruit, I feel.



It's a lot more accurate of a worldview than conspiracy theory, which presupposes absurdly complex and premeditated action by innumerable parties, none of whom ever confess to it.


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## Lensherr (Jul 5, 2016)

One look at MovieBob's Twitter will tell you everything you need to know.


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## AlephOne2Many (Jul 5, 2016)

There's never been an innocent hair on the leftist or rightist (autistic spelling), and it's foolhardy to expect selflessness from either side. The left in particular is increasingly aggressive but I think these just go in cycles, like really bad climate.

If the left wanted to be genuine they'd practice what they'd preach.


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## muina (Jul 5, 2016)

Not really and I think maybe some people have their own agendas to make it seem like that.
anti-fias are usually dumb and dumb understand facism though


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## Tranhuviya (Jul 5, 2016)

Antifa are awfully fond of the colors red and black for people who hate fascists.


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## Pickle Inspector (Jul 6, 2016)

Anti-fascist groups are like the far left version of racist violent skinheads and are often pro "Direct Action" aka smashing stuff up and harassing people who have differing opinions, in the EU that can mean things like anyone against open borders or anyone who wants limits on migrants.

One big problem they currently have is despite the name they're quite anti-Semitic due to the Israel/Palastine conflict and being blindly pro fundamental Islam due to it being the "Lesser evil" compared to islamophobes. (In their opinion)


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 6, 2016)

Anti-fascists was always a stupid moniker as they are really just left-wing fascists.

Non-fascists and anti-fascists don't assault people and commit crimes against others because they exercise their right of free speech.



NumberingYourState said:


> There's never been an innocent hair on the leftist or rightist (autistic spelling), and it's foolhardy to expect selflessness from either side. The left in particular is increasingly aggressive but I think these just go in cycles, like really bad climate.
> 
> If the left wanted to be genuine they'd practice what they'd preach.



The left only seem to look increasingly aggressive for people who are either too young to remember shit like the summer of 68, the weather underground, the eco terrorist attacks of the 80s and 90s, the G8 riots, etc... 

The Left has a _long_ history of using violence to suppress speech they don't like, but since journos overwhelmingly tend to be leftists and sympathize with their cause they don't get vilified anywhere near as much as they should be.


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## Sribgo (Jul 6, 2016)

Seems a bit weird for people to label themselves with anti-[something they're supposedly against]. Like it makes a lot more sense for vegetarians and such, for example, to call themselves "animal rights activists" not "anti-carnivores".


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## FlamingPie (Jul 7, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> ...
> 
> The left only seem to look increasingly aggressive for people who are either too young to remember shit like the summer of 68, the weather underground, the eco terrorist attacks of the 80s and 90s, the G8 riots, etc...
> 
> The Left has a _long_ history of using violence to suppress speech they don't like, but since journos overwhelmingly tend to be leftists and sympathize with their cause they don't get vilified anywhere near as much as they should be.



@Internet War Criminal: On a related note, I saw a TV program many years ago (EDIT: I don't remember what it was) that said Che Guevara, at one point, was trying to convince Fidel Castro to detonate a dirty bomb in New York City, or something along those lines. If the story is true, it would probably explain why speds like Bill Ayers worship the fucker.

EDIT: Yep, it's true.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/truth-about-che-guevara



			
				Che said:
			
		

> “If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City…We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims…We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm.”


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## TowinKarz (Jul 7, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> The left only seem to look increasingly aggressive for people who are either too young to remember shit like the summer of 68, the weather underground,



This.  Everyone needs to chill. There are pictures of city blocks in FLAMES that were taken not that long ago... AMERICAN cities.... and black people being knocked down by fire hoses, and bombs going off in police stations.  The 60's were NOT all love beads and hippies.... The fact those pictures are  black and white makes it easy to forget that you parents or grandparents were ALIVE when it happened... and they don't have wounds or shell shock because of it, because it didn't herald the start of some Civil War (the wet dream of everyone with an unfeasible political belief and a temper)  This country has survived much worse.  Yes, the current temperament is fractured, rude, horrifically uninformed and confrontational, but it is NOT the doom of the nation.  Not even close.  It's worse than it was when I was a kid, but I blame social media for that, allowing people to build info bubbles around themselves where only things that align with their politics get through has led to a nation of people who really can't effectively debate policy, only try and yell down the other side....

Social media just means it's easier for loudmouths to get their message out, and media outlets tend to use alarmist language to sell the spectacle.  Nazism may be "on the rise", but, statistically, that means what really?  A rise in popularity from 1% of the voting public to.... 1.5%?   You could double or even TRIPLE it and it still wouldn't be a force worth paying attention to, except for those on the local level who have to pay for new shop windows every time they come to town.

I'm hoping this upcoming election is going to deliver a septic shock to some of the more diseased sections of our body politic, because both sides are aggressively courting extremists, and the good news is, whoever loses is going to have to cut them loose in the regrouping as they realize that maybe, maybe, the common person who isn't an unemployed nothing-to-lose street thug is who they should've gone after.


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## Sweet and Savoury (Jul 7, 2016)

I feel that the extremes have pretty much taken over both right and left. 

You can see it in the rhetoric both side spew. The opposing view is no longer just wrong but its inherently evil and no comprise can be allowed. Your either all in or your "one of them". 

The ability to compromise has been almost lost as neither side is willing to give an inch. to allow discussion of opposing views is wrong and snyone who doesn't agree with me is pushing hate speech. Both sides love to do whatever it takes to shut down the other, morality doesn't come into play as "they" are just bad people so it's ok to use what ever you have too. 

It's the puritanical mindset returned for another generation


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## IwegalBadnik (Jul 9, 2016)

At the moment I think the Democrats and the left in general are having an identity crisis not unlike what was had in 1968.

The centrists are trying to grab moderate independent and Republican votes, the moderate left which has actually been fairly quiet in my eyes and then you have the people (ostensibly) to the left of them (SJWs and the like)--who seem more like a bunch of deranged (and often bloodthirsty) crypto-fascists. Many of the people in these individual groups dislike or despise those in one of the other groups; unity between these packs is uneasy or nonexistent.

As a historical note, 1968 was a catastrophe for the left which resulted in the failure of the New Deal coalition after the DNC refused to make concessions toward its splintering factions. Many New Dealers were upset by what happened in 1968, and shifted very radically politically (ex. James Cagney). Others bore similar resentments and walked away from the Democrats. 

I think there's a good chance splintering on a fairly decent scale will happen given that the masses aren't likely to budge and while I don't think the election of 2016 itself will mirror 1968, I think the structural aftermath will.


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## TowinKarz (Jul 9, 2016)

Yeah, whoever loses is going to have to come to grips with the fact that they're out of touch.  

Well, I think they've been out of touch for at least a few elections.  What's happening now is those factions they've ignored are finally getting frustrated enough to pick the opposition, either in protest or genuine defection.  Blocks of voters the left assumed would always be there for them are growing tired of being told, essentially "Yeah, you've got it rough, but, your problems don't matter as much as THESE poor oppressed *insert special-SJW interest group here* , have some compassion!"   

A person who can't pay their bills isn't fertile ground for patience


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## IwegalBadnik (Jul 9, 2016)

TowinKarz said:


> Yeah, whoever loses is going to have to come to grips with the fact that they're out of touch.
> 
> Well, I think they've been out of touch for at least a few elections.  What's happening now is those factions they've ignored are finally getting frustrated enough to pick the opposition, either in protest or genuine defection.  Blocks of voters the left assumed would always be there for them are growing tired of being told, essentially "Yeah, you've got it rough, but, your problems don't matter as much as THESE poor oppressed *insert special-SJW interest group here* , have some compassion!"
> 
> A person who can't pay their bills isn't fertile ground for patience



The left is shy a couple key accomplishments to win over much of their number and right now many of the splinters are feeling the pressure.


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## DZ 305 (Jul 11, 2016)

We are reaching maturity in an age where we have become so interconnected. I foresee tensions to continue to escalate until a graver threat than petty politics. A changing globe and declining environment will force man to change. Ideologies are all the same, they rise and fall. Don't be afraid and embrace our differences in viewpoints. Discussions focused around civility, honesty and respect is our best hope for the left and right


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## Caesare (Jul 23, 2016)

There is a non-fiction book called "Into the Devil's Den: How an FBI Informant Got Inside the Aryan Nations and a Special Agent Got Him Out Alive."

Ridiculously long title, I know. Anyway, the book was about an unemployed mechanic/ex-biker who was arrested for a trying to sell several pounds of marijuana to an undercover. He wasn't a drug dealer or anything like that, it was a one time thing to make some quick cash and then be done with it. When he was arrested, it involved the Feds because it crossed state lines, and they gave him a choice, go undercover into the local Neo Nazi chapter in the area and dig up dirt on them. Mind you, this was right after the Oklahoma City bombing and people like Tim McVeigh were still fresh in peoples minds. McVeigh had a copy of "The Turner Diaries" in his truck when he was arrested. If you're curious that's an adventure novel written by William Pierce, founder of the National Alliance, a famous White Nationalist group in the 70s and 80s.

"Turner Diaries" is basically a Neo Nazi power fantasy where America turns into an ultra liberal nightmare where the Jews run everything and they use the blacks as their lackey's. The main character is a member of an underground organization dedicated to bringing down the government. They gain power, kill a lot of people, and the book ends with the main character crashing a nuclear armed airplane into a heavily fortified pentagon which is the last stronghold of the American government.

Ok, enough backstory. In the FBI Informant book, the guy working with the Feds for selling weed infiltrates the group due to his connections to one of the local biker gangs who also have some drug dealing ties with the local Neo Nazi Chapter. He attends their meetings, goes to their rallies, basically completely rearranges his life to make it seem like he is a diehard member of the Neo Nazi group.

But this was just a regular dude, not prejudiced in the least. In fact, he mentions in the book he has several biracial nieces and nephews and he has to take special care to hide that fact from the Neo Nazi group.

There was a line the guy said though, his name was "Dave" (not his real name he was deep undercover) he said that, while he would attend these Neo Nazi gatherings in public places, the most hateful, violent people that showed up weren't the Neo Nazis, it was the people that showed up to protest.

He said they were some of the most violent, vitriolic individuals he ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with. He said before they would even start speaking, he was attacked and had to defend himself from the counter protesters. I mean, the Neo Nazi group had some awful ideas and feelings about people, but they were all talk, the type of people that show up to these protests are violent, unstable people, looking for confrontation and a good fight.

(Sorry about the essay, that kinda got outta hand as I got writing lol)


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## Wallace (Jul 24, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> There was a line the guy said though, his name was "Dave" (not his real name he was deep undercover) he said that, while he would attend these Neo Nazi gatherings in public places, the most hateful, violent people that showed up weren't the Neo Nazis, it was the people that showed up to protest.
> 
> He said they were some of the most violent, vitriolic individuals he ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with. He said before they would even start speaking, he was attacked and had to defend himself from the counter protesters. I mean, the Neo Nazi group had some awful ideas and feelings about people, but they were all talk, the type of people that show up to these protests are violent, unstable people, looking for confrontation and a good fight.



Reminds me of the scene in the Blues Brothers, when the Illinois Nazi Party are having a march that blocks a bridge.


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## TowinKarz (Jul 24, 2016)

I hate Illinois Nazis.....


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## feedtheoctopus (Aug 3, 2016)

I'm never gonna cry for a skinhead. Nor should anybody be interested in coddling their delusions of legitimacy. 

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2014/04/17/splc-report-nearly-100-murdered-stormfront-users

The kind of people we're talking about here are not a bunch of angels.


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## Internet War Criminal (Aug 3, 2016)

Innocent before being proven guilty. You don't get to assault people for having terrible opinions and if you condone violence against them you are even more despicable than they are


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## r00 (Aug 3, 2016)

Pretty much. Progressive liberals are some of the most facist people on the planet. They are by-and-large well off, middle class products of a capitalist society that would gladly impose strict regulations on commerce and industry, which would prevent the kind of upward mobility that would allow the rest of the population to achieve their social position. Also, they aggressively dictate their personal views about race on to the rest of society, and would actively punish people who disagree with them. That's pretty much the definition of facist.

Just look at what happened after brexit.


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## polonium (Aug 4, 2016)

There is no group more authoritarian and restrictive than the modern "liberal"  left-winger


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## Caesare (Aug 5, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Innocent before being proven guilty. You don't get to assault people for having terrible opinions and if you condone violence against them you are even more despicable than they are




It's a special kind of person that frequents websites like Stormfront and the Southern Poverty Law Center site. Both groups represent the extremes of those types of beliefs albeit on opposite ends of the political spectrum, I think both sides represent the fringes of society. I've never visited Stormfront so I can't say for sure, but I've read similar stuff, can't imagine it being anything other than bitching about minorities. I used to read quite a few articles on the SPLC site, and while some comments are civil, it mostly seems like they are just as hateful and antisocial as the so called fascists they claim to despise. And they don't limit their hate to card carrying skinheads, I've read comments purposing violence against the right, Republican's, Independents, Libertarians.... essentially anyone and everyone who isn't a diehard, radical leftist. SPLC commenters and Stormfronters represent the ugly fringes of society that I prefer not to mingle with.


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## piripiri (Aug 5, 2016)

it's amazing and sad to see how easily manipulated all grass roots movements are. In a way, you have to admire how far astroturfing has come. It only seems like yesterday people were protesting globalism but now they are calling anyone against globalism a racist.


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## feedtheoctopus (Aug 6, 2016)

Coleman Francis said:


> It's a special kind of person that frequents websites like Stormfront and the Southern Poverty Law Center site. Both groups represent the extremes of those types of beliefs albeit on opposite ends of the political spectrum, I think both sides represent the fringes of society. I've never visited Stormfront so I can't say for sure, but I've read similar stuff, can't imagine it being anything other than bitching about minorities. I used to read quite a few articles on the SPLC site, and while some comments are civil, it mostly seems like they are just as hateful and antisocial as the so called fascists they claim to despise. And they don't limit their hate to card carrying skinheads, I've read comments purposing violence against the right, Republican's, Independents, Libertarians.... essentially anyone and everyone who isn't a diehard, radical leftist. SPLC commenters and Stormfronters represent the ugly fringes of society that I prefer not to mingle with.



Dude, c'mon. There is absolutely no equivalency whatsoever between an organization that monitors hate groups and a bunch of neo-Nazis. That's just downright retarded thinking



piripiri said:


> it's amazing and sad to see how easily manipulated all grass roots movements are. In a way, you have to admire how far astroturfing has come. It only seems like yesterday people were protesting globalism but now they are calling anyone against globalism a racist.



The people who were rioting in Seattle over the WTO and shit like that were never opposed to a kind of broad internationalism. Complete opposite, they actively encouraged it and protests were often coordinated across borders and involved people from all walks of life and cultures. David Graeber has a great book called _Direct Action: An Ethnography_ where he talks about his experiences with the anti-globalization movement and why and how activists planned all those summit protests. When the radical left refers to globalization they're talking about neoliberalism as an economic system, nationalism doesn't really factor into it. It was more about the dominance of western corporations over developing economies than anything else, which is on top of the fact that shit like NAFTA isn't good for working people in the west either. 

This is in contrast to the alt-right types who's disagreement with globalization is mainly motivated by a kind of dogmatic and unrealistic nativism that is at its core totally divorced from economic and political reality. Isolationism is a good way to end up like Venezuela. "Dey took er jerbs!" isn't a good reason to cut off all economic contact with the rest of the world


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## TowinKarz (Aug 6, 2016)

The case you cite, I remember.  

The "harassment" part was actually said assholes OPENING FIRE on a car containing a woman and her daughter because they thought, without any good justification, that a carload of  nonwhites driving by the entrance to their compound (on a public road) were clearly up to no good.  And the guy who owned the place got in hot water because he HIRED those idiots as security, so it's not like they just happened to be standing on his property when they did it, he paid them to be there and chase off anyone they didn't like getting too close, which they did, to his financial peril.

I really detest civil-law-as-tool-of-social-reform too, because that makes things less "who's right" and more "who's got the most money to burn", but in that case, I can't say SPLC was in the wrong.    If it got to the point where SPLC lawsuits were in the news with the frequency of Fred Phelps' toxic crusaders... then I might agree more.


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## ccoinhoarder (Aug 6, 2016)

Antifa punk groups like SOSF and FSU have made going into hardcore shows a 'pleasant' experience.

Are you a Pop-punk band? Prepare to be extorted, like Mest.
Are you somewhat right-wing? Prepare to be beaten.
Are you not wearing ridiculous amounts of the proper gear? Prepare to be moshed into oblivion.
Are you deciding to stand back and listen to the music, maybe take a break from moshing? Some fat asshole will take the opportunity to crowdkill you, basically moshing in non-moshing audiences.
Are you on an 'opposite' crew, despite the fact that crews like SOSF and FSU have the same technical objective of fighting racist groups? Prepare to be attacked! Or at least, you guys will ineffectually swing at each other and maybe flash machetes until the cops are called, then you flee.


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## AnOminous (Aug 6, 2016)

feedtheoctopus said:


> Dude, c'mon. There is absolutely no equivalency whatsoever between an organization that monitors hate groups and a bunch of neo-Nazis. That's just downright exceptional thinking



Actually the comments section there really is shit a lot of the time.  I think SPLC is sometimes overly eager to paint right wingers as hatemongers for marginally bigoted speech, but generally do a good job on "official" declarations of something being actually a "hate group."

But the comments sections are shit.  As they are most places, really.



TowinKarz said:


> The case you cite, I remember.
> 
> The "harassment" part was actually said assholes OPENING FIRE on a car containing a woman and her daughter because they thought, without any good justification, that a carload of  nonwhites driving by the entrance to their compound (on a public road) were clearly up to no good.  And the guy who owned the place got in hot water because he HIRED those idiots as security, so it's not like they just happened to be standing on his property when they did it, he paid them to be there and chase off anyone they didn't like getting too close, which they did, to his financial peril.
> 
> I really detest civil-law-as-tool-of-social-reform too, because that makes things less "who's right" and more "who's got the most money to burn", but in that case, I can't say SPLC was in the wrong.    If it got to the point where SPLC lawsuits were in the news with the frequency of Fred Phelps' toxic crusaders... then I might agree more.



Pierce was scum and his organization richly deserved being burned to the ground.  Good on SPLC for hammering the stake into its heart.


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## MrCKMongler had cybersex with ADF lol (Aug 6, 2016)

feedtheoctopus said:


> Dude, c'mon. There is absolutely no equivalency whatsoever between an organization that monitors hate groups and a bunch of neo-Nazis. That's just downright exceptional thinking
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Isolationism as you describe it isn't really what anyone in the US is advocating.

The right is currently advocating for limitation on immigration and refugees, and either renegotiation of/backing out of NAFTA.

The big pro-immigration claim made by the left is that immigrants do jobs Americans won't. This is only half true, immigrants do jobs for wages Americans won't is much more correct. Immigrants are to the labor market what Walmart is to the retail market.

NAFTA would be an awesome idea between maybe only the US and Canada, two post industrial countries who can trade on equal footing, but throwing Mexico into the mix really just made it idiotic to have a factory in America, because the tariffs for goods being shipped across the border more or less disappeared.


Contrast this with Venezuela, who have taken to the DPRK school of foreign relations of having a totalitarian leader trying to become some sort of cross between a batman villain and someone trying to play tropico IRL.


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## AnOminous (Aug 6, 2016)

Faggot Tree said:


> Isolationism as you describe it isn't really what anyone in the US is advocating.
> 
> The right is currently advocating for limitation on immigration and refugees, and either renegotiation of/backing out of NAFTA.



Trump has outright hinted at pulling out of fucking NATO which can be described as nothing other than isolationist.


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## MrCKMongler had cybersex with ADF lol (Aug 6, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Trump has outright hinted at pulling out of fucking NATO which can be described as nothing other than isolationist.


Yes, and no.

Trump has said he would like to see the other countries in NATO honor their end of the deal, and actually spend what they are supposed to spend on defense. As of right now, the only countries in NATO that are ready for an all out war are the US, and possibly Turkey. This will put us in a dangerous position if say, Erdogan finally pisses Putin off enough. NATO has devolved from a mutual defense pact to something more akin to the US guaranteeing to keep all the member of NATO safe, which is just dumb. It will end up pulling us into foreign wars for countries who couldn't give a fuck to spend some money on their own defense.


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## feedtheoctopus (Aug 6, 2016)

Faggot Tree said:


> Isolationism as you describe it isn't really what anyone in the US is advocating.
> 
> The right is currently advocating for limitation on immigration and refugees, and either renegotiation of/backing out of NAFTA.
> 
> ...



(I'm going to apologize for the wall of text in advance, but none of this shit is simple enough for me to respond to with brevity)

People scoff when you bring up Noam Chomsky (as they should in a lot of cases). That being said he has a great book called _Profit Over People: Neoliberalism And Global Order_ which is about shit like NAFTA in large part. He makes one good point in it that is often overlooked, which is that NAFTA is actually highly protectionist. A lot of people on the right who are opposed to it seem to be under the assumption that Mexico is exploiting America. It's the complete opposite, we're exploiting Mexico. We do not sign any treaty that harms our domestic industry or businesses. Even if you look at TPP and the other big trade deals being negotiated right now you realize that they were written with our corporations in mind. They're part of American global dominance. This is how we build economic and political leverage in the rest of the world while opening up new markets for our products. They don't exist for anybody else and we actually break rules in those treaties quite often in order to protect our own interests. Never mind the actual text of these treaties, we're powerful enough that we can do what we want. We don't really allow imports that would actually compete with out businesses. 

Fact is capitalism is apathetic at best to the needs of working people on both sides of the border. It is part of the structure of this economy. Even if you believe capitalism is the best system imaginable, there's no denying that its major fault is that it provides no economic incentive whatsoever to care for the needs of regular people and communities. Just ask all those Mexican farmers we put out of business. Frankly, even if you did start taxing imports, those jobs aren't coming back. American workers demand too much. If those factories were to migrate back to the US one of two things would need to happen in order for that to remain economically viable: prices would have to increase massively (most likely) or American workers would have to be willing to sacrifice living wages and benefits. And at that point you might as well be working in the service industry. The world's changed. The 60's are dead. The factories aren't coming back and automation is picking up speed and rendering more of those jobs obsolete anyway. 

As for immigration, that's a non issue compared to all the shit I just mentioned. Whatever problems you can name that go along with immigration have their roots in our economic system and in the way politicians in the US categorically refuse to consider the faults of the free market and have so far gone out of their way to avoid doing things that would lessen the shock of globalization (expanded welfare state, investment in sustainable domestic industries and education, etc etc). Your economic woes aren't the fault of some dude from El Salvador cutting lawns. As far as I can tell the alt-rights opposition to immigration has little to do with actual economic reality and more to do with broad xenophobia and hyper-nationalism that fetishizes borders. Never mind the fact that US immigration policy is actually very restrictive for most people (hence they come illegally). Anyway, our economy needs cheap labor to stay afloat regardless. Businesses will declare bankruptcy before they start paying Americans the wages they desire. Go look up the working conditions at Tyson or something and how much those folks make per hour. There's a reason shit is like that. Namely that it is a labor intensive industry and they remain profitable, naturally, by fucking over labor. If they didn't have the ability to fuck over their workers easily they'd downsize. They aren't in business for the sake of their employees. Nobody runs an industrial chicken farm out of benevolence. 

As for Venezuela, those dumbasses fucked themselves and now they're panicking. Which isn't going to work.


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## MrCKMongler had cybersex with ADF lol (Aug 6, 2016)

feedtheoctopus said:


> (I'm going to apologize for the wall of text in advance, but none of this shit is simple enough for me to respond to with brevity)
> 
> People scoff when you bring up Noam Chomsky (as they should in a lot of cases). That being said he has a great book called _Profit Over People: Neoliberalism And Global Order_ which is about shit like NAFTA in large part. He makes one good point in it that is often overlooked, which is that NAFTA is actually highly protectionist. A lot of people on the right who are opposed to it seem to be under the assumption that Mexico is exploiting America. It's the complete opposite, we're exploiting Mexico. We do not sign any treaty that harms our domestic industry or businesses. Even if you look at TPP and the other big trade deals being negotiated right now you realize that they were written with our corporations in mind. They're part of American global dominance. This is how we build economic and political leverage in the rest of the world while opening up new markets for our products. They don't exist for anybody else and we actually break rules in those treaties quite often in order to protect our own interests. Never mind the actual text of these treaties, we're powerful enough that we can do what we want. We don't really allow imports that would actually compete with out businesses.
> 
> ...



I don't want to derail this thread, because it is a good one, so i'll keep my answers short. Bear in mind, I am pulling the lever for Johnson in November, not Trump as well, so my information his platform may be a little out of date.

1. No, I actually agree with you there. NAFTA exploits Mexico and the US for profit. No one wins in this deal except the lobbyists who pushed for it to begin with.

2. Private charities exist and are far more effective at providing aid where needed. A nanny state puts a DMV like organization in charge of empathy, which is laughable. If you have no marketable skill, well, sucks to be you. We already provide you with an education, figure the rest out.

3. The US is one of only a few countries in the world that practice citizenship by birth, and not blood. This made sense when we were just becoming established, but does not anymore, is what they argue, and I can see their logic, even if I may not 100% agree with it.


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## AnOminous (Aug 7, 2016)

feedtheoctopus said:


> (I'm going to apologize for the wall of text in advance, but none of this shit is simple enough for me to respond to with brevity)
> 
> People scoff when you bring up Noam Chomsky (as they should in a lot of cases). That being said he has a great book called _Profit Over People: Neoliberalism And Global Order_ which is about shit like NAFTA in large part. He makes one good point in it that is often overlooked, which is that NAFTA is actually highly protectionist. A lot of people on the right who are opposed to it seem to be under the assumption that Mexico is exploiting America. It's the complete opposite, we're exploiting Mexico. We do not sign any treaty that harms our domestic industry or businesses. Even if you look at TPP and the other big trade deals being negotiated right now you realize that they were written with our corporations in mind. They're part of American global dominance. This is how we build economic and political leverage in the rest of the world while opening up new markets for our products. They don't exist for anybody else and we actually break rules in those treaties quite often in order to protect our own interests. Never mind the actual text of these treaties, we're powerful enough that we can do what we want. We don't really allow imports that would actually compete with out businesses.
> 
> ...



Nobody reads posts this long here.


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## feedtheoctopus (Aug 7, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Nobody reads posts this long here.


Yeah, but I'm a pretentious toolbag and like typing


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## LulzKiller (Aug 7, 2016)

feedtheoctopus said:


> Yeah, but I'm a pretentious toolbag and like typing


You separated it into paragraphs so it actually was a decent read. Wall of text is when I switch off.


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## Caesare (Aug 8, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> But the comments sections are shit.  As they are most places, really.
> 
> .




Amen.


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## Sanae Kochiya (Aug 17, 2016)

no


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## Picklepower (Aug 19, 2016)

Maybe if Antifa were just a self defense group, they would be a good idea. Like if the left wants respect, they can't be all hugs and kisses, they should get armed like the right wingers are.


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## Samson Pumpkin Jr. (Mar 1, 2021)

Yes, I think this is true. Liberals are the real fascists, and racist too. This is because they expect lower performance from minorities so they prop them up using social programs when in reality if they truly thought they were equal they wouldn't be condescending towards niggers


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## ABE LINN COHN (Mar 2, 2021)

Austrian Conscript 1915 said:


> Yes, I think this is true. Liberals are the real fascists, and racist too. This is because they expect lower performance from minorities so they prop them up using social programs when in reality if they truly thought they were equal they wouldn't be condescending towards niggers


Fitting for a thread from 2016, someone still stuck in 2016


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