# Is being religious better than being non-religious?



## Vocaloid Ruby (Jun 6, 2018)

Can being religion impact you in a positive way? Does it matter? Does it only impact you negatively?

Can religion impact your every facet of life, Emotionally, financially, sexually, etc.

Would some people be better people if they were religious? Does religion actually guide a persons mindset or are they a terrible or kind person, with or without it? Are some religions better than others?

Nobody ever seems to really question these things when they debate religion, but rather society as a whole.

Would you be a better person, if you were religious? Would you be a better person without faith?


----------



## Zack the ripper (Jun 6, 2018)

see heres the thing about religion 
on paper it should have a positive effect you know like treat it like a lolcow youtuber
first you enjoy the content 
but then you find out that not all the people share that enjoyment 
and slowly but surely you grow to hate thos people 
and before you know it you are on kiwifarms defending thos lolcows 
and you know what happen u get lost ! you loose your enjoyment ! your positive things are lost at this point
it becomes just an ego trip 
to me i think beliefs should be in hearts only 
create your own religion bruh 
i grew up in a muslim enviroment and believe me religion will make you do stupid shit niqqa


----------



## ES 148 (Jun 6, 2018)

Without faith my father would probably be a washed-out drunk who never amounted to anything. I'd say it has benefits.


----------



## Some JERK (Jun 6, 2018)

That really depends on the religion. Despite what the 'diversity is the only thing that matters' crowd says, not all religions are created equally.


----------



## Zack the ripper (Jun 6, 2018)

oh and about what religions are better
i 100% vote Christianity they seem chill and have some nice tunes

EDIT :  i think being a good person has to do with the person himself 
with or without a religion


----------



## NOT Sword Fighter Super (Jun 6, 2018)

Some JERK said:


> That really depends on the religion. Despite what the 'diversity is the only thing that matters' crowd says, not all religions are created equally.


And also some necessarily *hate* others.

That's why this bumper sticker always makes me laugh:


Spoiler: Cool story, bro!


----------



## Nobunaga (Jun 6, 2018)

Buddha and jesus are the only religious figures you should follow, the rest are a bunch of assholes


----------



## Lord of the Large Pants (Jun 6, 2018)

I think I'd probably be a worse person without religion, especially because it provides a context to morality. Not in a reward/punishment sense, but as to why we should think any one action is morally better or worse than another action. Religions can create a sense of community, of personal hope, etc. They can have a dark side of course, and it depends which religion you're talking about, but I think overall the good far outweighs the bad.

That said, even if it has apparent benefits, I don't think there's any point in following one if you don't think there's any sort of universal truth in it.


----------



## IV 445 (Jun 6, 2018)

Lord of the Large Pants said:


> That said, even if it has apparent benefits, I don't think there's any point in following one if you don't think there's any sort of universal truth in it.


idk Mormon and Amish girls are pretty kinky


----------



## Draza (Jun 6, 2018)

Yes and no. It's subjective in how you experience being religious or non-religious. For me i'm semi-relgious and still feel pretty good.


----------



## wellthathappened (Jun 6, 2018)

Ratko_Falco said:


> Yes and no. It's subjective in how you experience being religious or non-religious. For me i'm semi-relgious and still feel pretty good.



I was an atheist altar boy, but still felt pretty good. The priests were mostly nice and cool to be around also no weird molestation type stuff. They didn't care about my lack of belief and I didn't care about their belief.

:powerlevel:


----------



## Draza (Jun 6, 2018)

wellthathappened said:


> I was an atheist altar boy, but still felt pretty good. The priests were mostly nice and cool to be around also no weird molestation type stuff. They didn't care about my lack of belief and I didn't care about their belief.
> 
> :powerlevel:


Exactly like that.


----------



## Cheerlead-in-Chief (Jun 6, 2018)

Tell that to the crazy Pentecostal lady; she blames school shootings on the Devil.


----------



## The Fool (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm not quite sure.

My parents are heavily religious. Before, they were mildly religious, they were firm believers, but they still had their own lives, listened to rock music, etc.. Now that they're middle aged, they've reached their mid-live crisis. They became heavily religious, they listen to Christian music channels non-stop and Jesus is just about all they think about.
On the surface, they seem quite happy. I'm glad for them that they have something they can be so passionate about and preoccupied with. But if you keep looking, you can really see their true feelings on their face. They're terribly afraid of death, change, entropy, and the loss of loved ones. Now that they're getting older, they know things are going to inevitably change for the worse, and soon death will come for them, and they still have things they need to take care of. It's painfully obvious they're using religion to run away from that, and it mostly works. But then there's those lapses of their facade where I can see the despair on their faces.
I'm just not sure if they've made the right decision. They're rejecting closure for a security blanket, and it doesn't feel right to me. I'm not religious, I understand and accept oblivion and entropy are coming to wipe out all of existence eventually, and I have solace in not worrying about that nagging voice in the back of my head telling me I'm going to die one day, because I can just say back to it "I know." My parents don't have that luxury. I have dreams, and I'm afraid to die. I hope science can advance enough to extend my life. But if it can't, I don't really mind much, I've already accepted it. Science isn't my religion.
For these reasons, I can't really approve of religion, but that's only my own limited experience with it. I don't dare confront my parents about this, or anyone else who feels the way they do, it'd be too heart breaking for me. Ultimately, I don't even really care to think about all this stuff that much. I don't care about religion one way or the other, I just enjoy living my life. But then I see how religious people cower in fear of the universe, and I can't help but wonder why they continue to hide.


----------



## Cake Farts (Jun 6, 2018)

Zack the ripper said:


> EDIT : i think being a good person has to do with the person himself
> with or without a religion


At the end of the day this is what it all boils down to. You hear people complaining about Christians being assholes or Atheists being stuck up, but I’ve met a fair share of nice and asinine people from both sides.

Theoretically speaking, in the chance that our universe is indeed godless and our lives exist without purpose, what harm is there in letting people believe in the religion they want to believe? It’s something about the more ardent atheists I never understood. If religion makes someone happy or provides them comfort/mental stability, what harm is there in letting people believe what they want to? Whatever happens to our sense of being when we die is completely out of our control anyways.


----------



## Zack the ripper (Jun 6, 2018)

Cake Farts said:


> At the end of the day this is what it all boils down to. You hear people complaining about Christians being assholes or Atheists being stuck up, but I’ve met a fair share of nice and asinine people from both sides.
> 
> Theoretically speaking, in the chance that our universe is indeed godless and our lives exist without purpose, what harm is there in letting people believe in the religion they want to believe? It’s something about the more ardent atheists I never understood. If religion makes someone happy or provides them comfort/mental stability, what harm is there in letting people believe what they want to? Whatever happens to our sense of being when we die is completely out of our control anyways.


yo man you scratched an itch of mine 
like believe me im in a very religious environment and i am very influential in my circle but i would never talk someone outta their faith -believe me im that autistic i can- to me being faithless or godless is a bleak existence 
that's only when i think about shit you know ? but as i always say Love makes life worth living for me at least
we only get on shot at life and we shouldn't waste it is the motto i preach 
as long as the faith doesn't affect others i have no problems with it 
the perfect faith is the one which helps you not the one which uses you yo feel me ? 
i will stay all night reciting hymens to cheer up a homie but i would never pay the fifth


----------



## Kari Kamiya (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm personally religious, so I believe that has affected how I see the world around me because it's a home a loving God created for me--for us--to live on, and so it's beautiful. It's ugly only because mankind has deemed it ugly and too imperfect and therefore why bother taking care of it? Mankind is what's ugly, not the world. But mankind can be beautiful, too, lots of fantastic and great things have happened _due_ to mankind because someone wanted to share their love of life and knowledge with others around them.

Sometimes I wonder if I _would_ be the same person without religion since I've always been a rather cheerful, friendly person. But was that thanks to the influence of religion, or was I just born that way? I don't know, I don't dwell on it too much because I just want to enjoy experiencing this life and try not to let things bother me. I accept that everyone has their own choices to make in their own lives, so as long as they're not hurting anyone, I don't care about someone's religious background if it's not important to the conversation. Likewise, I don't go around talking about my religious beliefs just because, it's something that has to come naturally, and that doesn't happen too often.

So it just depends on the individual. Everyone has their own reasons for why they do or do not believe in a God, who am I to judge?



The Fool said:


> But then I see how religious people cower in fear of the universe, and I can't help but wonder why they continue to hide.



Sounds like they're taking "fear God, not man" too literally. By fearing man, you fear being judged by them, so you strive to be more like them just to feel more accepted at the risk of not being who _you_ want to be. By fearing God, you want to strive to more like him at the risk of persecution from those who hate _who_ you want to be. Least that's how _I've_ interpreted it, I don't know how other religions interpret it.


----------



## RG 448 (Jun 6, 2018)

Yes, being religious is better than being non-religious.


----------



## Johnny Bravo (Jun 7, 2018)

It depends on the religion and the individual being religious.


----------



## ThePurpleProse (Jun 7, 2018)

I have mixed opinions, from 2 different sides of the world.

I've seen first hand what religious people do (muslims and christians) and I don't think religion change them, they were probably shitty humans to start with but muslims... man I have a very dark little corner in my heart for those niggers, turned into a nihilist at the age of 10.

After leaving the wasteland that was my homeland behind went to the most catholic christian place I could think of (because there was no atheist country and I was sick of muslims and orthodox faggots), and there is where I stopped being an asshole to religious people, I saw too many fuckers doing a face heel turn after finding religion (catholicism or evangelism).

One thing I did noticed about people that become religious is that they're less intelligent, but I've never figured out if they were intelligent before turning to religion or they were more "susceptible" to become religious due low intelligence, I do know however that education plays a major role, illiterates go fanatic.

But at the end, this is what I think for the most part:


Kari Kamiya said:


> So it just depends on the individual. Everyone has their own reasons for why they do or do not believe in a God, who am I to judge?


----------



## DumbDosh (Jun 7, 2018)

Being religious as a teenager helps you avoid being an angsty teenage atheist. 

There are some people who lived better lives because of religion and some who definitely had worse ones because of it.

I feel like I may have missed out on christian youth group gatherings and stuff because of the way I was, but I'm okay with that. 

Everyone has their own journey and way of thinking about things, I wear a Saint Christopher medal because even though I don't believe I genuinely love that story and think that's kind of how religion should be, he just wanted to serve the most powerful thing in existence and then when told to pray and fast he refused and instead chose to help people with his strength and ability. He was probably just a complete legend but it doesn't matter because it's still a cool story and it can still be inspiring.


----------



## Daughter of Cernunnos (Jun 7, 2018)

I would say it's an overall bad thing for social progress as most leftist theorists incorporate atheist ideas into their work. ie. Marx, no gods no masters (originally an anarchist slogan) etc. I think religion is an overall good for many people's mental health so they don't obsess and despair over death and let grief destroy them.

Earth based religions like Paganism and indigenous faiths are an overall net gain for the planet since respect for the Earth and Her spirits is such an important part of EBR. If EBR were more popular there would probably be more interest and action on ecological and climate issues. It is easy for Manichaeism influenced religions (this includes all Abrahamic religions) to not care about what happens to the physical world because they see matter itself as inherently "fallen" already.

Most EBR were far ahead of their time; as their animist beliefs taught them that plants, animals and natural entities are people with spirits. Only in the modern era with scientific research have we found that animals do have sentience and can be considered under personhood (insert animal personhood debate here). Research also suggests plants have their own way of feeling feelings even if it's very different from animals. And scientifically speaking, plants and fungi are alive. 

Natural entities like bodies of water are so integrated with the cycles of nature and interconnected with the needs of many living beings that I can see why animists have considered them alive. Life certainly cannot exist without Them.


----------



## The Crow (Jun 7, 2018)

It really depends on the individual. Some people are better off believing as it tends to steer them towards the right direction in life while others take those religious beliefs to extremes and use them to justify doing harm to others.


----------



## Broseph Stalin (Jun 7, 2018)

I spent the better part of my high school and post-high school years being non-religious after falling out with Christianity before Weev piqued my interest in Asatru last year. Since following the faith, I've found myself in a better state of mind and well being than I did during those "nihilist" years. I feel that religion itself is what helps us maintain our humanity, in a way.


----------



## Daughter of Cernunnos (Jun 7, 2018)

Broseph Stalin said:


> I spent the better part of my high school and post-high school years being non-religious after falling out with Christianity before Weev piqued my interest in Asatru last year. Since following the faith, I've found myself in a better state of mind and well being that I did during those "nihilist" years. I feel that religion itself is what helps us maintain our humanity, in a way.


Just call it Germanic polytheism. Asatru, Heathenism and Odinism are all such cringey terms. Just as bad as people call Celtic polytheism Druidry.


----------



## Zaragoza (Jun 7, 2018)

I had a family member who wasn't a religious type of person but still believed in God and the Divinity of Jesus but wasn't the type of person to go to church at all but as life and the amount of stress accumulated, she started attending Church, she became a much more optimistic and less aggressive person because of the NT and the teachings of Jesus.


----------



## Gallian (Jun 7, 2018)

Ight, this will be a wall of text:

Vocaloid Ruby posits the thread as "Is being religious better than being non-religious?" The simplest answer, maybe. However re-framing as "Is being non-religious better than being religious better?" With the same conclusion hence making the question redundant. However there is meat in the subsequent OP. I shall be going out of order as to address what I perceive to be the overall issue. 



Vocaloid Ruby said:


> Nobody ever seems to really question these things when they debate religion, but rather society as a whole.



The issue is that both sides are inherently interested in influencing society as a whole. Using religion (or lack there of) as the tool to affect change. The though being that they are diametrically opposed forces. However my personal belief is that you are hold a piece of paper in your hands, while it has two sides it is still the same piece of paper. We here are trying to do is take the paper and tilt it 45° to be able to see both sides breaking it out of its two-dimensional constraints.



Vocaloid Ruby said:


> Can religion impact your every facet of life, Emotionally, financially, sexually, etc.



This is where I am going to have to start being a bit of an asshole, I do apologize. 

Who is "your"?  English has done itself a disservice in eliminating the second person plural pronoun. If I am speaking for myself personally; no, but I do not find myself as a particularly religious person. I like many other here can say if we use the second person plural; yes, I know several people that have had religion permeate there life and become a core part of who they are.

However the very same can be said for the other factors. Can emotions impact every facet of life? Hell a good chunk of this board is dedicated to persons that have let their emotions, sexuality,  and/or political beliefs take over their personality to an absurd degree. 

This is where I feel particular attention needs to be drawn. There has been roughly a 1% per year increase in irreligion
in the United States between the years of 2007 and 2014. To me this is where the impact is felt the strongest. The sociological aspects of religion are being replaced. 

The varying degrees of irreligion have started to erode the underlying, unofficial rules of order in the U.S. Leaving in it's wake a vacuum that is being filled by grasping onto an ideology du jour, or for my area the opium of the masses is turning into heroin. 

Religion forms a generally standardized society, and ultimately with it's removal there is a space that needs to be filled. My question is not whether religion is good or bad, but can replace religion and maintain order?


----------



## Jewelsmakerguy (Jun 7, 2018)

Zack the ripper said:


> oh and about what religions are better
> i 100% vote Christianity they seem chill and have some nice tunes
> 
> EDIT :  i think being a good person has to do with the person himself
> with or without a religion


Aren't Mormonism and Jehovah both subsets of Christianity and fucking cult-like in their beliefs? I mean I'm Christian (mostly a Deist of sorts) and even I think those groups are fucking insane.

As for the second statement, that's true- Despite what I said above, it shouldn't matter what religion, age, gender (or lack thereof), race, or whatever else, you are. it's the behavior that affects people the most. And yet, that's not how society works even though humanity should have had that hammered into their heads since birth.


----------



## Broseph Stalin (Jun 7, 2018)

Daughter of Pomona said:


> Just call it Germanic polytheism. Asatru, Heathenism and Odinism are all such cringey terms. Just as bad as people call Celtic polytheism Druidry.



Always just said Asatru because it was less of a mouthful, but eh, fuck it lol


----------



## ToroidalBoat (Jun 7, 2018)

No religion: everyone dies, the planet dies, the universe dies, the end.

At least religion can give some kind of hope for the future.


----------



## Eto (Jun 7, 2018)

I think both have a fair share of pros and cons. I'm personally not religious, (atheist, but I'm considering converting back) but it can have a positive effect on a person, like with mental health and coping. The problem arises when you have extremists wanting to push it down everyone's throats, and either wanting to blow up everything or control a facet of a person's life. That's when a religious person becomes dangerous, or flat-out obnoxious.

Then you have the non-religious. Some experience something tragic and simply can't comprehend a deity allowing such injustice to happen, while others come to their own conclusions about life. With the non-religious, you have your typical fedora tipper carrying around that atheists generally have higher IQ's than religious people, and how they're "so smart." If being non-religious is the only thing you can brag about and how religious people are stupid, then I don't care to be around you.

All in all, just don't be an ass about your religious, or non-religious, affiliation.


----------



## Pinup Paracelsus (Jun 10, 2018)

Eh, my life has certainly improved since I dropped religion. Believe God is judging me 24/7 or just be okay with being a grain of sand in the cosmos? Surf those godless space waves, mah alien dudes.


----------



## Dolphin Lundgren (Jun 10, 2018)

I think you can be a happy person with or without religion. It's all about how you handle your beliefs and nonbeliefs. Nobody likes asshole religious people or asshole atheists. And there are ways for people to have positive impacts with their lives with either. 
You can be a good person either way.


----------



## IAmNotAlpharius (Jun 10, 2018)

In my opinion, it really doesn't matter what someone believes so much as what they do. An asshole will just use their beliefs -religious, political, philosophical, etc- to justify their being an asshole. A good example of this are atheist SJWs and hardcore Christian fundamentalists. They both are irritating, authoritarian, and justify their behavior with their beliefs. 

On the opposite end of the spectrum there are the liberal Red Cross volunteers and Christian Missionaries/Priests that dedicate their lives to serving others. Although there are those who leach off charities, these kind of people sacrifice their savings, livelihoods, and time to make the world a better place. They often do it to little fanfare. Whereas the assholes used their beliefs as cover, these people use their beliefs as motivations to do good.


----------



## Jewelsmakerguy (Jun 10, 2018)

IAmNotAlpharius said:


> In my opinion, it really doesn't matter what someone believes so much as what they do. An asshole will just use their beliefs -religious, political, philosophical, etc- to justify their being an asshole. A good example of this are atheist SJWs and hardcore Christian fundamentalists. They both are irritating, authoritarian, and justify their behavior with their beliefs.


Which makes it all the sadder that these are the people heard the most. Especially the evangelists who keep saying things like "This piece of media is a tool of Satan" or "The world coming to an end" because they want attention. I'm amazed that there are people willing to listen to those people and not question whether or not these guys may be just a _little_ bit insane.


----------



## UptownRuckus (Jun 10, 2018)

Hortator said:


> idk Mormon and Amish girls are pretty kinky



Reasons to become Mormon 




Lord of the Large Pants said:


> I think I'd probably be a worse person without religion, especially because it provides a context to morality. Not in a reward/punishment sense, but as to why we should think any one action is morally better or worse than another action. Religions can create a sense of community, of personal hope, etc. They can have a dark side of course, and it depends which religion you're talking about, but I think overall the good far outweighs the bad.
> 
> That said, even if it has apparent benefits, I don't think there's any point in following one if you don't think there's any sort of universal truth in it.



I'd have to agree. Even if at the end of life there is nothing, I will agree that it made me happier, better, and treat others with kindness. So whether or not it is real in the end...it does make one...as they say, more Saintly.


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (Jun 19, 2018)

I think it depends upon the religion, the individual, and how you define "better".

One distinctive feature of religion is the way that it employs soft power (that is, the ability to persuade via social pressure) to discourage people from breaking certain taboos and engaging in certain behaviors. In my view this is both a positive and a negative. It is a positive in that it can reduce the need for hard power (i.e. state intervention in people's lives) to deter objectively destructive behaviors, but it is also a negative in that it can discourage people from thinking as freely.

Social pressure towards a popular belief system does, after all, lead to a more conformist society, and as Nietzsche (I believe accurately and eloquently) pointed out, conformity tends to lead to mediocrity and intellectual stagnation in society.

The other distinctive feature of religion is it's tendency to make bold claims about wholly unknowable and unsubstantiated things (i.e. the supernatural), and this is where I think atheists have the strongest arguments against religion. I do think it is boring to focus the argument around this aspect of religion though. It is easy to make the case that concepts such as a personal god and the afterlife are very likely the product of the human imagination (which let's face it, they probably are), but this in no way diminishes the important social role that religion serves in people's lives across the world, and I lament that I don't hear many prominent atheists really attempt to address this, nor provide a viable alternative to it.

As for where I stand, I would like to see mankind gradually outgrow religion. I don't think it will happen anytime soon, and it's not something that I'm overly emotionally invested in, but I do think that as soon as we reach the point where we are (technologically or otherwise) able to reduce hardship in people's lives to a negligible level, as well as perfect our approach to education and knowledge acquisition, religion will start to decline in prevalence. In the developed world, I would say this is happening already.


----------



## ⋖ cørdion ⋗ (Jun 20, 2018)

Always felt like it's a hobby for the soul. Give an incel a hobby they're passionate about and suddenly they can have a 10-minute talk on the matter if anyone shows interest.

Give an angsty teenager a set of beliefs and values to follow and they'll suddenly have an easier time acting on and justifying them. Do the same in a nutty place like the American south and it 's bound to go wrong, but in a reasonable country I can see how leaning more to religion than atheism could be the foundation for a healthy person, at least til they realize it's literally just some behavioral guidelines and they dismiss them once mature.


----------



## RadicalCentrist (Jun 20, 2018)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> As for where I stand, I would like to see mankind gradually outgrow religion. I don't think it will happen anytime soon, and it's not something that I'm overly emotionally invested in, but I do think that as soon as we reach the point where we are (technologically or otherwise) able to reduce hardship in people's lives to a negligible level, as well as perfect our approach to education and knowledge acquisition, religion will start to decline in prevalence. In the developed world, I would say this is happening already.


Such incredible naivety.  Mankind will never outgrow the need to feel a part of something greater.  The decline in sacral religion in the west has been matched with the rise of ideological religion, equally divorced from the scientific method.  'Reduce hardship in people's lives to a negligible level'  - this has already happened.  Death in childbirth or infancy is nearly wiped out, healthcare is available to all, even school is funded by the taxpayer.  We are living in a time of incredible wealth.  Yet things don't seem to be getting better for the spiritual life of man, are they.  "Perfect our approach to education" - hate to break it to you but civilization isn't a video game.  You don't 'research' better methods that are immediately adopted.  Even if you develop a better educational method, how do you prove it?  How do you convince the entrenched members of society that have much to gain from the status quo to change?


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (Jun 20, 2018)

RadicalCentrist said:


> Such incredible naivety. Mankind will never outgrow the need to feel a part of something greater. The decline in sacral religion in the west has been matched with the rise of ideological religion, equally divorced from the scientific method.



Using words such as "equally" and "matched" implies that you think there is some equivalence between religion and the various secular ideologies which have increasingly replaced it. While I would agree with you that the void left by religion's decline has partly been filled by such ideologies, I don't think you can convincingly make the case that they have an equal influence to religion in most people's lives. Some people, certainly, but in general, they're much more peripheral.

Of course, it is part of man's nature to want to be a part of something bigger, but this goes beyond religion. What about community, family, work, etc? Many people who are irreligious in the West are perfectly content with those things, and don't seem to need religion (just look at the figures on church attendance in most European countries).



RadicalCentrist said:


> 'Reduce hardship in people's lives to a negligible level' - this has already happened. Death in childbirth or infancy is nearly wiped out, healthcare is available to all, even school is funded by the taxpayer. We are living in a time of incredible wealth. Yet things don't seem to be getting better for the spiritual life of man, are they.



I think that you are incredibly naive if you think that hardship in the developed world has become negligible. It is true that we are living in a time of incredible wealth by historical standards, and compared to many parts of the world, we live very well, but at the end of the day, we still have to work to put food on the table, we still get sick, we still grow old and die, and we still have to endure the distress of watching our loved ones do the same.

If you think that what we have now is about as good as things are likely to get, then I think you are extraordinarily short-sighted, especially if you are familiar with the latest developments in computer science, robotics, and medicine, which look set to completely revolutionize our quality of life in the coming decades.



RadicalCentrist said:


> "Perfect our approach to education" - hate to break it to you but civilization isn't a video game. You don't 'research' better methods that are immediately adopted. Even if you develop a better educational method, how do you prove it? How do you convince the entrenched members of society that have much to gain from the status quo to change?



You don't even have a point here. About the firmest thing that you are trying to say is that change and reform are incremental, which I have never denied, nor would deny. Still, that doesn't mean that educational reform can't happen, does it? Unless you're going to suggest that our approach to education was better 100 years ago.


----------



## Vocaloid Ruby (Jun 20, 2018)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> Using words such as "equally" and "matched" implies that you think there is some equivalence between religion and the various secular ideologies which have increasingly replaced it. While I would agree with you that the void left by religion's decline has partly been filled by such ideologies, I don't think you can convincingly make the case that they have an equal influence to religion in most people's lives. Some people, certainly, but in general, they're much more peripheral.
> 
> Of course, it is part of man's nature to want to be a part of something bigger, but this goes beyond religion. What about community, family, work, etc? Many people who are irreligious in the West are perfectly content with those things, and don't seem to need religion (just look at the figures on church attendance in most European countries).
> 
> ...



I didn't think this thread would honeypot anyone, guess I was wrong. Religious belief figures are rising because science can only do so much.

Next time you reply pls post a selfie with your fedora.


----------



## Hellbound Hellhound (Jun 20, 2018)

Vocaloid Ruby said:


> I didn't think this thread would honeypot anyone, guess I was wrong. Religious belief figures are rising because science can only do so much.
> 
> Next time you reply pls post a selfie with your fedora.



Religious belief figures are rising in some parts of Europe due to immigration and disparate fertility rates, not conversion. I also think it's funny that you peg me as a fedora-tier atheist when my posts on this topic have been completely measured, and your reply reeks of the same kind of snooty derision that the fedora crowd famously has an affinity for.


----------



## Vocaloid Ruby (Jun 20, 2018)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> Religious belief figures are rising in some parts of Europe due to immigration and disparate fertility rates, not conversion. I also think it's funny that you peg me as a fedora-tier atheist when my posts on this topic have been completely measured, and your reply reeks of the same kind of snooty derision that the fedora crowd famously has an affinity for.


----------



## AF 802 (Jun 20, 2018)

Yes.

Unless you're Muslim.


----------



## trueandhonestfan (Jun 21, 2018)

No. A religious asshole is still an asshole, and an asshole athiest is just an asshole who happens to be an athiest. Religion has nothing to do with how good of a person someone is.

People aren't better than other people because they believe in some "sacred" texts from a few thousand years ago. Especially if you're one of the religious crazies trying to push your beliefs on other people.


----------



## Antipathy (Jun 21, 2018)

Nah. But either way people will be smug pricks about their faith or lack thereof.

I just wanna lock a fundie and a fedora tipper in a room together and observe.


----------



## trueandhonestfan (Jun 21, 2018)

Dr W said:


> Nah. But either way people will be smug pricks about their faith or lack thereof.
> 
> I just wanna lock a fundie and a fedora tipper in a room together and observe.


The fedora tipper tips his fedora and reveals that he has a tanto (Japanese katana like dagger) under there. The fundie pulls out their sharpened metal rosary and a fight to the death ensues.


----------



## Duke Nukem (Jun 21, 2018)

Religion is nothing but a cope, just like drugs, alcohol, video games, and social media. If it makes you feel better to believe in imaginary sky people then go right ahead.


----------



## Antipathy (Jun 21, 2018)

Duke Nukem said:


> Religion is nothing but a cope, just like drugs, alcohol, video games, and social media. If it makes you feel better to believe in imaginary sky people then go right ahead.


You remind me of me during my fedora tipping days.

Although I never owned a fedora.


----------



## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jun 21, 2018)

I value the truth.  So in my view, as there no evidence of any of the fantastic magical religious stuff, I don't see a lot of value to it.  If you base any of your actions on things that aren't true, I don't think you're going to get the result you want.  I see so many people who get all worked up about how god is testing them, punishing them, wants them to save other people, etc.  I see no good there, that's just giving up your own agency and making yourself feel helpless.  It also allows you to deny your own responsibility, and lets you justify bad things happening to people "because they must have deserved it".

On the other hand, as philosophies I think they can have value.  I am not at all religious, but the philosophy I live my life by shares a good amount with what the Christian bible says about Jesus.  Like... be good to people, don't be an asshole, don't judge people for who they are, things like that.  I am certainly not an ascetic like he was, but it's not like Christians care about that part either.

So... define religious I guess...  If you mean believing in the supernatural stuff I'd say you're better off without.  If you mean having a guiding philosophy based in some sort of benevolence, then I suppose you're better with it.


----------



## Joan Nyan (Jun 21, 2018)

If what you believe is true then it's good to believe it and if it's untrue it's bad to believe.


----------



## Fleeb (Jun 21, 2018)

There's something to say about having the support structure that a religious community can provide.

I've always thought that if I could be religious, it would help me. It'd be great to think that I could live forever and everything is happening for a reason. The whole mortality and chaos gets to me a lot. 

Religion's given us some dope art and architecture.

Like any fandom, the hardcore nerds ruin it for everybody


----------



## Duke Nukem (Jun 21, 2018)

Dr W said:


> You remind me of me during my fedora tipping days.
> 
> Although I never owned a fedora.



Well, if you want to go around being told that everything fun is a sin that will make you go to Hell and suffer and be tortured for all eternity, then go right ahead. My dad was raised that way, and I sure don't ever plan on going back to that.

Look at all those self-righteous, wonderful heavenly creatures, way up above, pointing and laughing at people suffering the worst tortures imaginable in Hell.

Good people my ass.


----------



## Antipathy (Jun 21, 2018)

Duke Nukem said:


> Well, if you want to go around being told that everything fun is a sin that will make you go to Hell and suffer and be tortured for all eternity, then go right ahead.



I'm still an atheist, and I see faith used as a crutch to absolve oneself of responsibility or guilt, and to mock people. But as I got older, I realized that I didn't have the time, energy, or care to hurl myself at everything like that. For every fundie there's just someone who believes because they do. Acting smug because 'oh, _I _don't believe in your savagery' is literally taking the same stance on the opposite side: a sense of entitled superiority because of your belief.

In short, I'm telling you this: take a step back. Breathe. Smile. Remember that any ideology can be twisted for unethical ends, and that any and every stance has been used to excuse atrocities. You and I aren't better for being atheists, and we wouldn't be worse for being Christian.

Unless you're a fundie who sees faith above reality, and the nonbeliever as either inferior or an enemy, in which case, kindly fuck off and die.


----------



## Duke Nukem (Jun 22, 2018)

Don't get me wrong, I don't give a single fuck if you are religious or not, but I can't name any wars started by an atheist. Just saying. On the other hand, atheists also have convictions despite lack of evidence to support it, so they're really no better. I suppose it's comforting to believe that you go to a happy place when you die, though.

Don't get me started on sects, either. It's as if being the wrong denomination can land you in Hell much like being a Satanist. Lol. What's the point really.


----------



## Cheerlead-in-Chief (Jun 23, 2018)

Maybe there is no God. I got threatened to go to a Psychiatric Center for simply stating to my mother I'm Agnostic.


----------



## Gone_Fission (Jun 25, 2018)

Duke Nukem said:


> Don't get me wrong, I don't give a single fuck if you are religious or not, but I can't name any wars started by an atheist. Just saying.



Literally every communist dictator, and arguably many fascist ones as well. You could also argue that outside of Dubya and some of the neocon true believers, the cabal of dead-eyed NatSec ghouls that keep pushing the US into wars are generally secular sociopaths.

As for whether religion is better than non-belief, Bret Weinstein makes an interesting argument about religion being factually false, but metaphorically true; meaning that even if faith is grounded on unprovable superstion, acting is if it were real may confer tangible benefits to the believer and aid in survival, which is why most successful religions have managed to last as long as they have.


----------



## temeluchus (Jun 26, 2018)

I don't think it's better either way per se, I guess it depends on ones personality. 

Have a think about it, draw your own conclusions, don't get angry at people who have come to their own conclusions provided they leave you alone. 

I'm an atheist of the soft variety (i don't think god(s) exist but cant prove anything conclusive) and I don't feel any void in my life that needs to be filled by anything spiritual or religious, but I do understand what roles religion fulfills and that most religious are nice and sincere believers and good people.


----------



## LN 910 (Nov 3, 2018)

I'm just scared of dying.


----------



## ToroidalBoat (Nov 4, 2018)

Pinup Paracelsus said:


> Believe God is judging me 24/7 [...]


Not all religions believe in a judgemental god, or even any god.

Still, it may be better to have no god rather than an angry god who throws people into a lake of fire forever (a Graham's Number of years later and the torment would still have forever to go).

Personally I believe hell is a choice -- a manifestation of one's own evil -- rather than a punishment imposed, and it may not last forever.


----------



## LN 910 (Nov 4, 2018)

In fact, the idea of Heaven and Hell as Cloud City vs. Mephisto's Realm isn't something the Bible brings up. According to the Bible, to simplify it, Heaven is a "new Earth" we go to after we die if we're good and if we're bad we die permanently.  

So the very concept of eternal nothingness comes from The Bible. Isn't that strange?


----------



## ICametoLurk (Nov 6, 2018)

https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publications/2018-voter-survey/religious-trump-voters



> These national surveys find that Donald Trump voters who attend church regularly are more likely than nonreligious Trump voters to have warmer feelings toward racial and religious minorities, be more supportive of immigration and trade, and be more concerned about poverty.





> Religious Trump voters have higher levels of social capital: They are far more likely to volunteer, to be satisfied with their family relationships and neighborhood, and to believe the world is just and that people can be trusted.





> Since 1992, record numbers of Americans are leaving organized religion with the share of nonreligious people quadrupling among all Americans and tripling among conservatives.
> 
> These data demonstrate how private institutions in civil society may have a positive impact on social conflict and reduce polarization.



An actually interesting topic is how atheism was historically connected to strong left-wing ethics in both ML and SocDem countries but in the late 80s and 90s was bastardised to death by Neoliberals while the Left moved to New-Age woo (Budhism, and so on), to what degree internet culture (New Atheism, something awful, 4chan) either deepened or simply expressed that trend with people simply proclaiming "reason, logic and common sense" as the basis of what they believe in. And people who have problems use that to justify what causes people to freak out.

It's funny because "teaching evolution in schools is gonna make people selfish psychopaths" was actually a widely spread stance in the more activist christian groups.

Will people who hated on Evangelicals wish they came back when there's an entire generation of people who use only pure, bare facts as their entire reasoning, have the entire Internet to find anything that justifies them, and are only interested in themselves and people most similar to them?


----------



## LN 910 (Nov 6, 2018)

Basically, Athiest edgelords are assholes? I could've told them that.


----------



## Dial M for Misgender (Nov 6, 2018)

Can you help people only through religion? Might accepting the biggest claim one can think of, without evidence, lead one to accepting other, smaller claims without evidence? We may never know.


----------



## LN 910 (Nov 20, 2018)

It's better to live with the thought of something positive in your mind than wasting away with the negative. Either could be truth or lies, who cares? We're all retards.


----------



## PorcupineTree (Nov 21, 2018)

If you can find a faith that aligns with your mental wiring, it will improve your quality of life. 

(Speaking from a Christian context, because I haven’t experienced other faiths first hand.) I don’t think I’ll ever be able to believe in a literal god, but I do believe that the idea of one can be materialized through collective belief. Even if that god is a projection, it will start to feel real. Humans are built to be receptive to ritual like that. The constant bonding with a congregation is healthy too. 

I have a unitarian church that I go to sometimes. It’s nice.

The question of whether God is real seems trivial to me. The church is real. It feels good to be there. It’s full of things to do and people who genuinely want to be decent. Why not just roll with that feeling?


----------



## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Nov 21, 2018)

A lot of religions sound nice, but become more about serving the religion than the people.

Helping the poor is good whether or not there's an afterlife and whether or not there's a judgemental god.
"Saving the souls of sinners" is only good if there's an afterlife and a judgemental god. Otherwise you're wasting your time, and trying to ruin other people's good time.
Giving money to the catholic church is much less charitable than giving to a real charity, so religion has that negative too. It uses people's desire to help others to help itself. If you give money to a church, are you going to give more than you would to any other charity? Because the church is going to spend some of that money trying to spread itself.

So what does better mean? Happier? More productive? More able to fight the alien menace in the year 3622?  Not burning in eternal hellfire?

To me, a person who values truth and an accurate view of reality, religion is a negative because it gets in the way of that truth.  I value those things because I believe the best way to get what you want is to understand how the things work. If I want to exert influence over the universe, I would be more effective with more accurate knowledge.

I also believe free will is an illusion and we're basically the same as a wildfire or a rock rolling down a hill, so... I understand why some people don't see it the same way I do.


----------



## TheCapybara (Nov 21, 2018)

I'm generally of the opinion that you can believe whatever you want to believe, as long as you don't try to burn people at the stake or decapitate them for whatever you believe in. If you want to think that the world's a big flat disk being held up by four elephants who are, in turn, standing on the back of a colossal turtle that's swimming through space then whatever, more power to you, but if you start persecuting other people for believing in something besides your weird turtle religion or for doing something that goes against your turtle religion's core tenets then we're gonna have a problem. Personally, I don't really care about religion enough to interrupt my day to sacrifice a lamb on a stone altar or whatever, but I don't really have enough evidence disproving the presence of some higher power to go about loudly denouncing the existence of any sort of god, so I suppose I'd be agnostic. Comes down to what sort of person you are as to whether being religious or non-religious would be for the better for you.


----------



## PorcupineTree (Nov 21, 2018)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> A lot of religions sound nice, but become more about serving the religion than the people.
> Helping the poor is good whether or not there's an afterlife and whether or not there's a judgemental god.
> "Saving the souls of sinners" is only good if there's an afterlife and a judgemental god. Otherwise you're wasting your time, and trying to ruin other people's good time.
> Giving money to the catholic church is much less charitable than giving to a real charity, so religion has that negative too. It uses people's desire to help others to help itself. If you give money to a church, are you going to give more than you would to any other charity? Because the church is going to spend some of that money trying to spread itself.
> ...



It depends on what the religious organization is doing and what rules they’re imposing on its followers. I see offerings/tithing as more of a payment for the community building services it’s providing, both for the congregation and for the public. The charity element has more to do with volunteer work. 

I think there are some people who would still be genuinely altruistic without the fear of god, but the church is good at keeping the community as a whole in line. That’s probably a big reason why it’s been around so long. 

I think I’d be more obsessive about the truth if there was a chance that we’d actually find it, but I think it’s beyond our comprehension. It’s easier to humor a nice story.


----------



## Mammal Pod (Nov 22, 2018)

Pascal's Wager states that it's better to live as a religious person as:
A) If God exists, you give up earthly pleasure for eternal salvation (+infinity)
B) If God doesn't exist, you still merely gave up earthly pleasure (-1)
If you are not religious:
A) If God exists, you enjoy earthly pleasure but are sentenced to eternal damnation (-infinity)
B) If God doesn't exist, you got to enjoy earthly pleasure (+1)

The biggest payout and lesser loss both rest in being religious.
This isn't an attempt to convert anyone or start fights, just an interesting concept since everyone else already said what I wanted to say (that religion shouldn't make you a better or worse person, that some choose to believe out of fear of death and that is not necessarily harmful, and that it can also have a negative effect on people such as fundamentalists or used to run away from responsability).


----------



## Overcast (Nov 22, 2018)

Can't really say, but I do feel the existence of divine beings would make things a bit more interesting in some ways.


----------



## DarthBrooks (Nov 24, 2018)

Does op mean in the Pascal's Wager sense of the term? Better to have faith and be correct then to not and burn? I mean you specificate a rather questionable sect of christianity. One that has performed post mortem baptism. (Spoiler alert leave Anne Frank the fuck alone kthanksbye) 
You just have to go with what feels right to you. A previous user stated that religion is just a distraction from death. Well, everything outside of life's necessities to exist are as thus. It is all distraction so we don't obsess on our own demise. 
Are you searching for pure reason? I suggest Kant.
Are you searching for purpose? I suggest Spinoza.
You can read all the great deep thinkers or you can go find out on your own. It all ends the same.


----------



## queerape (Nov 24, 2018)

For some people it is, for some people it isn't. Some people can do without spirituality, for some people it is a need of life. Some people have tried to leave religion, only to find their way back every time. Others have tried to join, each time to no avail. Some are meant to be religious, some atheist, but neither is better than the other inherently. It all matters with what's right for you.


----------



## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Nov 26, 2018)

Mammal Pod said:


> Pascal's Wager states that it's better to live as a religious person as:
> A) If God exists, you give up earthly pleasure for eternal salvation (+infinity)
> B) If God doesn't exist, you still merely gave up earthly pleasure (-1)
> If you are not religious:
> ...



There's a big problem with Pascal's wager in that it can be used for literally anything.  For example, I will make the statement "If you don't give me all your money, you will suffer for eternity".

A. If I was right, and you give me all your money, you give up earthly pleasure for eternal salvation (+infinity)
B. If I was wrong, and you give me all your money, you merely gave up earthly pleasure (-1)
OR
A. If I was right, and you don't give me all your money, you kept earthly pleasure but got eternal suffering (-infinity)
B. If I was wrong, and you didn't give me all your money, you get to enjoy earthly pleasure(+1)

So are you gonna send me all your money?  Only if you're a fucking moron.

Also, pascal's wager can be mathematically disproven if you consider that for any given "good god" who goes by the rules you listed, there's a "bad god" who might want the exact opposite!.  Bad god will punish you eternally if you don't enjoy your earthly existence to its fullest.

See, the problem here is it's arbitrary. Pascal's wager is a great example of how human intelligence can be subverted by invoking infinity, a concept alien and terrifying to us.  I can tell you to do literally anything, if I say you get infinite reward for it, or you get infinite punishment for not doing it, if you believe me.  If I told you to kill yourself in the most horribly painful way possible, you'd do it, because the punishment for not doing it is infinitely worse.

This is one of those areas where I'll say RationalWiki has some decent, logical arguments. Or maybe it's just my bias because they agree with me on this...

The argument that "Well nobody can know there _isn't_ a god so being an atheist is just as crazy as being sure god is real" is deeply flawed, because you can use that argument again for literally anything.

How do you know there isn't a planet exactly 54 light centuries away from the sun filled completely with clones of myself living out a real life version of fortnight every day?  Are you agnostic to that possibility? How could you know that planet doesn't exist?

The more important question is "What evidence do we have that such a planet exists".  The answer being "Absolutely none".  So because there's no reason to believe it's true, we assume it's not.  Otherwise the answer to every question is either "Yes" or "Maybe".

People ask "What evidence do you have for non-existence of god?".  I'd say the same evidence that you have for the non-existence of clone fortnight planet.  Namely, the complete lack of evidence of its existence.  

It gets philosophical from there, basically to have a somewhat representational model of the universe we inhabit, we have to make lots of assumptions.  We don't give the same credibility to any random idea, otherwise we'd spend all our time wondering about some speck of dust in another theoretical universe instead of how we're gonna feed ourselves.  The only reason to give more credence to "God exists" over "Fortnight clone planet exists" is because one idea has been repeated more.  However, that doesn't excuse believing in Judaeo-Christian god over Thor or Vishnu.  I never, ever have heard a person say "How can you say you don't believe in Thor, how can you be so sure?"

To be clear, I don't believe in Thor, Vishnu, Fornight clone planet, or Judaeo-Christian god.  Also this post got way too long and nobody is going to read it...


----------

