# How do we escape the Rat Utopia while keeping the good parts of modern life?



## Lord of the Large Pants (Aug 23, 2022)

IB"what good parts?" Okay, but seriously.

I've seen it referenced by quite a few people, but this is the Rat Utopia in case you're not familiar with it. Basically, there was a set of experiments where a bunch of rats were given unlimited food and water. Two primary things happened as a result of this. First, the population exploded. Second, the rats went crazier than a shithouse rat. Sexual deviance such as homosexuality in some, lack of sexual desire in others, self-isolation, abandonment of children... any of this sound familiar?

Well, okay. There's a debate on whether this directly translates to humans. But it's hard to deny the parallels. We as a society have decided that human beings shouldn't be allowed to starve to death. The state should provide them with at least basic living standards. Despite the side effects, despite the costs, I think this is basically correct from a humanitarian standpoint. Plus, we in America just live in a rich country. As bad as the economy is right now, an ancient Greek or Roman would shit themselves in envy at the decadence of all but the poorest in the US. (Probably applies to other countries in the west to a lesser degree, but I won't speak for them.)

Then the Rat Utopia starts kicking in. We've become so prosperous that it's actually broken our brains. Mental illness is more prevalent than ever. Gender dysphoria is on the rise. People are voluntarily isolating themselves from others. Parents no longer know how to raise children. Based on the Rat Utopia, there's a strong argument that all this is happening because we simply have it too good.

On the other hand... there's something deeply disturbing about wanting people to suffer for the sake of character building. "We don't want TOO much peace. We don't want TOO much prosperity. We don't want medicine to get TOO advanced." Don't we? Aren't all these things good? I know a lot of people here are into faux-ironic anarcho-primitivist RETVRN stuff. But I personally rather like not having my teeth fall out by the age of 40 and dying in a ditch from a minor cut that got infected.

So... how do we get out of it? Is there any way we can be educated, virtuous citizens who are also rich and free? Or do we have to pick a lane?


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## Medulseur (Aug 24, 2022)

Strong men make easy times. Easy times make weak men. Weak men make hard times.
The needle is right in the middle of weak men and hard times in my opinion.


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## Just A Butt (Aug 24, 2022)

if a cut can kill you it means one of two things:

you don't know how to clean out and maintain a wound
your immune systems sucks and you'll probably die of something else pretty soon anyway


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## AnimeGirlConnoisseur (Aug 24, 2022)

I don't know if I would take the Rat Utopia experiment to the pulpit. I would like to see it repeated with more intelligent mammals (like monkeys), but I can't deny that it's saying some stuff we should pay attention to. 

I think that a lot of problems have to do with capitalism, not technology. Capitalism has put women in the workplace, kids in daycares, and the elderly in nursing homes for the sake of profits. If there was some way to curtail capitalism's tendency to mess with family units for the sake of greater short-term economic efficiency then that would probably fix things to some degree. 


Medulseur said:


> Strong men make easy times. Easy times make weak men. Weak men make hard times.
> The needle is right in the middle of weak men and hard times in my opinion.


That's an overly simplistic answer. Cyclical history is kind of stupid unless you put on the micro level. As long as you have some sort of hierarchy in society, there will always be struggle and some of the people born on the bottom will rise to the top as those who have become fat and lazy sink to the bottom.


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## Kosher Dill (Aug 24, 2022)

Well, _is_ it prosperity that's causing today's issues, rather than what we choose to do with it? And are we really prosperous in the ways that matter?
To put a fine point on it: does it matter if everyone has a supercomputer in their pocket, if nobody can afford a decent education for their child?


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## PaleTay (Aug 24, 2022)

You worry about what matters. The issue is people with middling prosperity become boring and fear everything so they plop themselves in front of the TV and lose any ounce of skill or creativity.


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## Uberpenguin (Aug 24, 2022)

It wasn't just rat homosexuality (including the male rats who'd try to mate with the dominant rats); the fiend rats whose behavior was basically limited to being relentless deranged rapists would attack the female rats in their nests and generally harass them to the point they'd reabsorb their young, ween their young too early, or outright wind up abandoning them.
The fewer stronger male rats couldn't maintain constantly struggling to defend their territory and their lady rats from the fiend rats, so the female rats would be left to try to defend themselves which led to a complete breakdown in their little rat family cycles. Their young were so screwed up they couldn't properly rear their own young anymore, and the entire colony collapsed.

You'd also have the rats who'd basically show no interest in reproduction of any kind, they'd just preen and avoid conflict at any cost, basically becoming social non-entities.

Anyone who claims these behaviors don't apply to humans is being silly. These seem like more primitively ingrained, latent behavioral patterns that manifest in communal species once population controls are removed, but territorial limitations are not.

Edit: Fredrik Knudsen on YT did a great video on the rat/mouse utopia experiments back in 2017. Watch it, it has 7.5 mil views for a reason.



> On the other hand... there's something deeply disturbing about wanting people to suffer for the sake of character building.





Spoiler: Edgy



I mean, it wouldn't be about character building, it would be about culling.

Again, this is no different from the idea of controlled burns in forests:


People started realizing that you need periodic fires, because that's how the weeds, insects, invasive species, etc. are controlled so they don't choke out the stronger species, especially since if that isn't accomplished eventually the hardier species will be choked out, all that will be left is the less hardy ones, and eventually a fire _will_ happen and _everything_ will die.

It's a bleak thing to accept, but death is just as vital to the maintenance of biological life as birth is. At some point you have to accept that not all life is made equal, there are lesser things that are built to die, and by not letting them do so you're defying nature and will pay the price.

That doesn't mean anyone should "do" anything about it, don't go shoot people or w/e, but it does mean you need to be able to steel yourself against the plight of other people who can't or won't help themselves.


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## Getting tard comed (Aug 24, 2022)

You don't.


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## BullDogsLipBrandClamjuice (Aug 24, 2022)

What did Leery used to say?
"Tune in, drop out" something like that. Or maybe it was Mckenna. Find like minded people, get out in the sunlight, try not to eat like shit.


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## Save the Loli (Aug 24, 2022)

It's ironically similar to what the World Economic Forum wants, just in many cases inverted. Like for instance the WEF wants schools to be (even more) globohomo indoctrination centers, but we'd want our schools to be indoctrination centers for how to live a healthy, virtuous lifestyle. We'd need mass manipulation of the culture and media and make it acceptable to call for violence and censorship against those advocating alternative lifestyles (like it's acceptable to bash white people, "Nazis", men, or anything symbolic of traditional society). Education would reinforce children's connection to their region, the nation, and the planet (in that order), teach why things are, and glorify exemplary figures while cultivating a new leadership class from the ordinary plebs (who will always exist).

Culture would heavily emphasize sports (actually playing them, not just worshipping basketball players), physical education (making you actually work your ass off), self-improvement, and activities like farming, hunting, hiking, etc. For those living in cities, there would be programs (possibly mandatory) to get people to experience the land around them. There would be mandatory national service which could include the military, farm labor, public works, etc. Welfare checks would come with this requirement, assuming one was too physically unfit or of course mentally unfit (in which case they'd be thrown in an asylum). Eugenics would be a major part of life where people with bad genes would be sterilized or otherwise limited in how many children they might have.

Basically it's about improving the quality of society to make people lead more meaningful lives.


AnimeGirlConnoisseur said:


> I think that a lot of problems have to do with capitalism, not technology. Capitalism has put women in the workplace, kids in daycares, and the elderly in nursing homes for the sake of profits. If there was some way to curtail capitalism's tendency to mess with family units for the sake of greater short-term economic efficiency then that would probably fix things to some degree.


This too. Unchecked capitalism destroying culture and the fabric of society for profit has been noted for over a century. Doesn't mean capitalism is inherently bad, but it does need to be checked and restrained for the sake of people.


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## Johan Schmidt (Aug 24, 2022)

We don't. Return to monke.


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## Kickster (Aug 24, 2022)

> *list of stuff that existed for all of human history"*.. any of this sound familiar?


Yeah it kinda does


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## Otterly (Aug 24, 2022)

We need a new frontier to explore.


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## Haim Arlosoroff (Aug 24, 2022)

AnimeGirlConnoisseur said:


> I don't know if I would take the Rat Utopia experiment to the pulpit. I would like to see it repeated with more intelligent mammals (like monkeys), but I can't deny that it's saying some stuff we should pay attention to.
> 
> I think that a lot of problems have to do with capitalism, not technology. Capitalism has put women in the workplace, kids in daycares, and the elderly in nursing homes for the sake of profits. If there was some way to curtail capitalism's tendency to mess with family units for the sake of greater short-term economic efficiency then that would probably fix things to some degree.


Suffering against nature is altogether different than suffering against kin and their negligence.  Learning one lesson slowly for a century makes for a society which then rots for one and a half that length.  1787-1887 to rise, and then 1887-2037 to bloat under ego and then fall.  Every empire must gets its day to rise, and then it fails after 250 years thereabouts.
​
Humanity never changes, once we succeed we lock ourselves in a room with only each other and no nature to judge.  Every year we march toward a sort of slow suffocation of soul.  What once came easily as men lived according to natures limits, now it mortgages joy from its own children for them to pay.  We are not the generation who got the joy, and we either submit and nastily steal from others cannibalistically or we riot against a system which hates us as much as our parents did. For who put national debt and the taxes to pay it with onto our shoulders for whose benefit but the Boomer?  Imagine going to a restaurant only to have to pay a tab your parents left.  Money lost most of its value, and we're so used to public collapse that two recessions hardly surprises us.  We know we're being raped financially, we have only the ability to tell ourselves someone else will take it today rather than I.  But look to all the Redditors and their Antiwork subreddits, who is being bent over a table to make the math work out?  Its a MLM pyramid scheme.  All societies turn into this, or they transform against their ruin and forestall their fate for another 250 years like the Eastern Romans or the British whose constitution barely uses its crown anymore where once the crown ruled in every way.

Capitalism ruined things because it lent one generation what the next had to pay, it ruined things because it made one corporation (or its lender) win where many hands used to be made heavier, and its ruined things because it can shift payment through a vast system to make everything just a little grayer and sadder generations after the next.  Who would speak for the dead from that, who today speaks for the suicides to come?  Let that be America's epitaph.  I hope we let justice be done as the heavens fall, and those thereafter chose something new.
​


Uberpenguin said:


> People started realizing that you need periodic fires, because that's how the weeds, insects, invasive species, etc. are controlled so they don't choke out the stronger species, especially since if that isn't accomplished eventually the hardier species will be choked out, all that will be left is the less hardy ones, and eventually a fire _will_ happen and _everything_ will die.
> 
> It's a bleak thing to accept, but death is just as vital to the maintenance of biological life as birth is. At some point you have to accept that not all life is made equal, there are lesser things that are built to die, and by not letting them do so you're defying nature and will pay the price.
> 
> That doesn't mean anyone should "do" anything about it, don't go shoot people or w/e, but it does mean you need to be able to steel yourself against the plight of other people who can't or won't help themselves.


We're not actually helping, we're just feeling guilt for something that cannot be stopped.  Somethings are not in humanity's control, and Mother Nature truly has a mother's patience with us.  It is a sign of nobility to cry out against fate, rather than to bow one's head.  It is human nature to seek out culpability in a time of tragedy, and to take the responsibility when blame cannot be found.  However their doom was fixed by their nature, and it is to nature that we must ultimately submit however long it takes our pride.

Welfare is a safety net when its sold, a lifestyle when its in place.  You withheld their fate, you never changed it.  Some people you cannot help, the sub-80 IQ populations after three generations of Welfare are not suddenly better off.

The sooner people realize that sometimes its better that you had never helped at all, the better for society.  Iron, out of Calvary, is master of men all.
​


Save the Loli said:


> we'd want our schools to be indoctrination centers for how to live a healthy, virtuous lifestyle. We'd need mass manipulation of the culture and media and make it acceptable to call for violence and censorship against those advocating alternative lifestyles (like it's acceptable to bash white people, "Nazis", men, or anything symbolic of traditional society). Education would reinforce children's connection to their region, the nation, and the planet (in that order), teach why things are, and glorify exemplary figures while cultivating a new leadership class from the ordinary plebs (who will always exist).
> 
> Culture would heavily emphasize sports (actually playing them, not just worshipping basketball players), physical education (making you actually work your ass off), self-improvement, and activities like farming, hunting, hiking, etc. For those living in cities, there would be programs (possibly mandatory) to get people to experience the land around them. There would be mandatory national service which could include the military, farm labor, public works, etc. Welfare checks would come with this requirement, assuming one was too physically unfit or of course mentally unfit (in which case they'd be thrown in an asylum). Eugenics would be a major part of life where people with bad genes would be sterilized or otherwise limited in how many children they might have.
> 
> Basically it's about improving the quality of society to make people lead more meaningful lives.


This is why I think Germany should have won WWI.  National Service was a much deeper system in Germany with their Pflichtfeuerwehr (Compulsory fire service) or Gemeindedienste (mandatory community service).  The idea that people are happier when they are capable and disciplined is just destroyed by admittedly good arguments today about governments abusing any power you give them.  That Europe would have looked remarkably like modern Europe, maybe the EU would be the European Empire instead.

Proper Civic Culture about giving people the worldview that the family is the smallest unit of the nation and that achievements alone make life worth living.  Government Dating Apps should exist to promote endless questionnaires to women to sort them at men who are suggested by AI for their compatibility.  PUA-like communities should be declared Child-Corruptors, although not only them.  Men should be taught how to not be creepy, and additionally how to be romantic, by government psychologists through Dating App recommendations.  Women would happily select men for it, and the results would be better for everyone.  Hobbies groups should be merged with dating Apps to ensure safe locations for people to meet and bond enough to see if they should grab a drink later.  People should have to preform certain group exercises like 10 mile runs in order to vote, every week.  There should be times when the economy is closed every week to ensure people have time to get together as family or friends in order to socialize.  I would restrict store hours to 10am-6pm weekdays, 8am-8pm on Saturdays, and close stores on Sundays.  Government Offices should be open Sun-Thurs.

People should be offered money to sterilize themselves, anyone who doesn't feel the need to continue their line isn't going to be a good citizen anyway.  What's in it for them?  Admittedly again, modern society and its multiculturalism telling good people they're evil for thinking about nationalism and the public welfare is going to make citizens not want to put their children through a hell of compulsion which is coming before multiculturalism collapses due to the host population hating the parasitism and the parasite population not stepping up because hard work is for the host population alone.  Its their country again once there's work to be done, then its right back to multiculturalism.  So maybe good people will be sterilized too, but the answer is to instill proper national values first not let society run mad.

Society should guarantee free housing and food, just not good housing or food.  But if people cannot afford better, then let them work and bank it all without taxing them.  Let them get free of their predicament.  Municipalities which cannot house its working classes, and invest in upper class housing only should have their population recover by National Housing and flee from such hostile lands.  Fuck capitalistic winner-take-all urban conditions today.



Otterly said:


> We need a new frontier to explore.


First, I thought we were fighting for a dream of a future amongst the stars. Then I realized we were fighting for wealth and the pride of wealthy men. I was ashamed. I hope one day humanity finds another frontier to conquer, humanity needs the wilds to house those who can still dream.
​
We peaked either in 1885 culturally or 1969 with the cancellation of the Manned Venus flyby because the only point of going to space was anti-Soviet propaganda.  The space race was just one part of America dunking on the Soviet Union like a jock bully.  Capitalism had better abilities, whatever Communism's better goals of putting permanent life on other worlds and moons.  Once Communism was humiliated, Capitalism lost interest because it never cared about space.  It only cared about showing up Communism dreams.  America wasn't the good guy in the lunar race, and if America lost then it would have raced for the next goal and we might have gotten a better civilization out of it.  Instead we peaked when Communism admitted their dreams didn't make for a better economy in general.
​
Having the realization we aren't going to go to space again was the moment that killed my sense of Whig Historiography.


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## The Great Chandler (Aug 25, 2022)

My dude, what is this doomer drivel? No one wants to go back to hunter-gathering society were you might as well have your skin peel off by smallpox. Same way no one wants to live in a pod, unless you're the definition stereotype soy loser. One way or another, the dystopian shit would rebound. If Anerica falls, some other civilization would carry her torch just as it carried Rome's. As for space? I'm sorry, but the truth is, space travel is still an inevitability! Curiosity, the Artemis Program, the James-Webb Telescope, the gradual cheapening of space travel to make it more accessible in the coming next generations and we are witnessing it! Maybe it feels better to feel helpless by doomscrolling and hope your low expectations could be subverted, but that doesn't add any other color to your own life.

Don't think too much about what the shitheels do in the world my dudes. They can have their share of the pie, but you can make your own.


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## Boyd McVoid (Aug 25, 2022)

First of all you could focus on yourself and stop bothering fags and people who don't bother you.
Second, escape to where? The only real utopia is inside your mind


Medulseur said:


> Strong men make easy times. Easy times make weak men. Weak men make hard times.
> The needle is right in the middle of weak men and hard times in my opinion.


It's way more complicated than that, you don't know anyone else's life but your own


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## Pangolin (Aug 25, 2022)

The problem with mouse utopia is they didn't put mouse wheels in it so the mice were bored to the point of insanity. If the mice had been able to exercise and explore some tunnels for food there would have been no problems.
I think we should install human sized wheels on the side of everyone's house. Every notice that not one single school shooter had a giant mouse wheel? It's not a coincidence. It would save lives


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## ToroidalBoat (Aug 25, 2022)

First realistic step is to leave the big city? Soys really love the hustle and bustle of the big city, like they're in a TV show.


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## Save the Loli (Aug 25, 2022)

The Great Chandler said:


> As for space? I'm sorry, but the truth is, space travel is still an inevitability! Curiosity, the Artemis Program, the James-Webb Telescope, the gradual cheapening of space travel to make it more accessible in the coming next generations and we are witnessing it! Maybe it feels better to feel helpless by doomscrolling and hope your low expectations could be subverted, but that doesn't add any other color to your own life.


Unmanned space exploration =/= space travel. I used to be a huge fan of it, but I think outside of getting to the point we can mine an asteroid instead of some remote hill in the Arctic/the Outback, there's no real reason we should be doing that. It's too dangerous if corporations/billionaires could easily build a lab to brew up ebolAIDS or turn themselves into the Borg and destroy all the normal people back on Earth. And the risk exponentially rises the further away from Earth people can go to the point where interstellar travel is tantamount to destroying the human race. The space colonies people would live in, be it free-floating O'Neill cylinders or domes on Mars/the Moon, would be nothing but giant bugpods, disgusting societies that are totally controlled by the elite and suppress the human spirit--they don't have to be, but I'm just saying that's what they inevitably will be since cramming 2 million people into an insanely expensive space colony is orders of magnitude more economically efficient (thank you capitalism) than cramming 200K people.

Oh, and don't forget how they'll eventually take away the night sky and replace it with satellite constellations that will light up and be giant billboards. They could also do the same on the moon. The reality is space colonization is a nightmare scenario for everyone involved.


ToroidalBoat said:


> First realistic step is to leave the big city? Soys really love the hustle and bustle of the big city, like they're in a TV show.


There's almost no rural jobs. The ones that exist are often taken by illegals or are just pure awful shit like "prison guard at the county jail full of methheads." Even jobs which SHOULD be rural like remote programming work demand you be in the office at least a few days a week. Enjoy your hour-plus commute each way.


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## ToroidalBoat (Aug 25, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> There's almost no rural jobs.


I didn't say it had to be rural. There are smaller more conservative towns. Or maybe even smaller cities that aren't so dystopian.

Also about space travel, it's ridiculously hard IRL. That's because...



ToroidalBoat said:


> *getting to space in "soft SF":*
> 
> Just get in a flying saucer and float away?
> 
> ...





ToroidalBoat said:


> > Traveling to the stars, by contrast, suffers from no such ambiguities or uncertainty. Indeed, it is a special case of manned spaceflight, more daunting than near-Earth spaceflight by many orders of magnitude. Star travel in fact occupies a special niche in the long career of human aspiration and desire. But although one of the most commonly expressed motivations for "going to the stars" is to perpetuate the human race, it is far more likely that an interstellar voyage would mean not the survival but rather the death of its crew.
> 
> 
> (Interstellar Travel as Delusional Fantasy [Excerpt] - Scientific American)


(and FTL looks impossible now)


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## SwanSwanson (Aug 25, 2022)

I used to be an anarcho primitivist(I still am on some things) because of the fact that outside of computers getting faster, I haven't seen any helpful technological advancements in my lifetime. But I now realized that's because tech that helps people isn't what the elites want, they want to control and subjugate us. 

Back to the beginning, I do think we can eat our cake and have it too, because alot of these problems aren't because we're too comfortable, its because we have no agency. What we just need a new free-er fairer world.


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## Haim Arlosoroff (Aug 26, 2022)

The Great Chandler said:


> My dude, what is this doomer drivel? No one wants to go back to hunter-gathering society were you might as well have your skin peel off by smallpox. Same way no one wants to live in a pod, unless you're the definition stereotype soy loser. One way or another, the dystopian shit would rebound.



​What people want is to fund their addictions at the cost of the world and future generations, while being woke third-worldists who want to reduce the world population to 5-7% of its current figure.  Choice has nothing to do with it.  All empire fall to tolerance, debt, and apathy.  America has those in spades.  You say that its likely normalcy continues, I say a billionaire loses his money a little at a time and then suddenly all at once.  America is exactly that sort of rich, we don't care how the money comes in and we don't intend to be thrifty with it.  We aren't going to talk each other over to the other's side on this one.  Reality will pick a winner, and I'm using history to wonder at America's future.  Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe I'm not.



ToroidalBoat said:


> Also about space travel, it's ridiculously hard IRL.


The Orion nuclear pulse rocket design has extremely high performance. Orion nuclear pulse rockets using nuclear fission type pulse units were originally intended for use on interplanetary space flights.

Missions that were designed for an Orion vehicle in the original project included single stage (i.e., directly from Earth's surface) to Mars and back, and a trip to one of the moons of Saturn.

Freeman Dyson performed the first analysis of what kinds of Orion missions were possible to reach Alpha Centauri, the nearest star system to the Sun. His 1968 paper "Interstellar Transport" (Physics Today, October 1968, pp. 41–45) retained the concept of large nuclear explosions but Dyson moved away from the use of fission bombs and considered the use of one megaton deuterium fusion explosions instead. His conclusions were simple: the debris velocity of fusion explosions was probably in the 3000–30,000 km/s range and the reflecting geometry of Orion's hemispherical pusher plate would reduce that range to 750–15,000 km/s.

To estimate the upper and lower limits of what could be done using contemporary technology in 1968, Dyson considered two starship designs. The more conservative energy limited pusher plate design simply had to absorb all the thermal energy of each impinging explosion (4×1015 joules, half of which would be absorbed by the pusher plate) without melting. Dyson estimated that if the exposed surface consisted of copper with a thickness of 1 mm, then the diameter and mass of the hemispherical pusher plate would have to be 20 kilometers and 5 million tonnes, respectively. 100 seconds would be required to allow the copper to radiatively cool before the next explosion. It would then take on the order of 1000 years for the energy-limited heat sink Orion design to reach Alpha Centauri.

In order to improve on this performance while reducing size and cost, Dyson also considered an alternative momentum limited pusher plate design where an ablation coating of the exposed surface is substituted to get rid of the excess heat. The limitation is then set by the capacity of shock absorbers to transfer momentum from the impulsively accelerated pusher plate to the smoothly accelerated vehicle. Dyson calculated that the properties of available materials limited the velocity transferred by each explosion to ~30 meters per second independent of the size and nature of the explosion. If the vehicle is to be accelerated at 1 Earth gravity (9.81 m/s2) with this velocity transfer, then the pulse rate is one explosion every three seconds. The dimensions and performance of Dyson's vehicles are given in the following table:


"Energy Limited"
Orion"Momentum Limited"
OrionShip diameter (meters)20,000 m100 mMass of empty ship (tonnes)10,000,000 t (incl.5,000,000 t copper hemisphere)100,000 t (incl. 50,000 t structure+payload)+Number of bombs = total bomb mass (each 1 Mt bomb weighs 1 tonne)30,000,000300,000=Departure mass (tonnes)40,000,000 t400,000 tMaximum velocity (kilometers per second)1000 km/s (=0.33% of the speed of light)10,000 km/s (=3.3% of the speed of light)Mean acceleration (Earth gravities)0.00003 g (accelerate for 100 years)1 g (accelerate for 10 days)Time to Alpha Centauri (one way, no slow down)1330 years133 yearsEstimated cost1 year of U.S. GNP (1968 USD), $3.67 Trillion0.1 year of U.S. GNP $0.367 Trillion
Later studies indicate that the top cruise velocity that can theoretically be achieved are a few percent of the speed of light (0.08–0.1c). An atomic (fission) Orion can achieve perhaps 9%–11% of the speed of light. A nuclear pulse drive starship powered by fusion-antimatter catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion units would be similarly in the 10% range and pure Matter-antimatter annihilation rockets would be theoretically capable of obtaining a velocity between 50% to 80% of the speed of light. In each case saving fuel for slowing down halves the maximum speed. The concept of using a magnetic sail to decelerate the spacecraft as it approaches its destination has been discussed as an alternative to using propellant; this would allow the ship to travel near the maximum theoretical velocity.

At 0.1c, Orion thermonuclear starships would require a flight time of at least 44 years to reach Alpha Centauri, not counting time needed to reach that speed (about 36 days at constant acceleration of 1g or 9.8 m/s2). At 0.1c, an Orion starship would require 100 years to travel 10 light years. The astronomer Carl Sagan suggested that this would be an excellent use for current stockpiles of nuclear weapons.


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## the clap (Aug 26, 2022)

I thought one of the less drastic ideas on avoiding behavioral sink in humans was to focus on creative and artistic endeavors? Stuff mice don't really have in their toolbox.
Also war, but hey, like we ever need an excuse


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## Oilspill Battery (Aug 26, 2022)

The family and Nationalism has proven time and time again to be the simplest, easiest and most effective ways to motivate a population and give them something to believe in/strive for.

Nationalism in the west has basically dissolved and the family unit is under constant attack being undermined nonstop by what would in any other time of history be called undesirables, today we call them progressives.

Also, just want to make this clear, when I say nationalism I mean actual nationalism, not whatever joke passes for nationalism in the us, the us is irreversibly fucked on every level (and probably deserves it too), this is about saving everyone else.


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## Tree (Aug 26, 2022)

> On the other hand... there's something deeply disturbing about wanting people to suffer for the sake of character building. "We don't want TOO much peace. We don't want TOO much prosperity. We don't want medicine to get TOO advanced." Don't we? Aren't all these things good? I know a lot of people here are into faux-ironic anarcho-primitivist RETVRN stuff. But I personally rather like not having my teeth fall out by the age of 40 and dying in a ditch from a minor cut that got infected.


This is the imbecile's or subversive's argument against those who have the temerity to care about more than the immediate health of a people. There is a great difference between wanting people to suffer and having the heart to stop the perpetuation of suffering. 

Additionally it's folly to classify these modern developments as "advancements". Much of modernity is designed to treat symptoms rather than causes, to perpetuate suffering and create dependent populations. This is what fools and jews call "progress", but no matter how complex the theory behind it, who capable of taking a step back would call it that? No, as often as "advances" in technology are used to empower man they are used to make him feeble. A real improvement occurs when a people comes to know the difference, rejecting that which is used to enslave them, grasping that which empowers them, and bringing down judgment on the sociopaths who stand in opposition.


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## Wesley Willis (Aug 30, 2022)

Joe Hogan has the answer to this.


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## mr.moon1488 (Aug 30, 2022)

You can be wealthy and not slip into decadence.  Rome was extremely wealthy throughout most of its history and only really slipped into decadence in the last few decades of its history.


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## jorgoth (Dec 12, 2022)

But really, maybe the key is letting urban degeneracy fester and eat itself without letting it fester and eat everything else. I mean you can't deny the suppressive effect it has on the birthrates of degenerates is eugenic in nature.

Basically what I'm saying is we should abolish the Department of Education.


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## Schwarzwald (Dec 13, 2022)

In my estimation, the problem with society today isn't directly prosperity, technology, or peace. 

Rather, the problem with the world is that we live in a judgment-free, live and let live society. The mindset that we shouldn't judge others unless they're actively harming others has led us down this path of decadence and hedonism. The problem is bolstered by technology, giving anybody with access to a computer a sympathetic platform to voice their lunacy or join communities which indulge it. In conjunction with Western nations adopting multiculturalism, we now have entire nations with individuals who have nothing in common with their fellow countrymen, either in values or in identity.

There is no uniting culture or moral code which we can adhere to or guide our lives at large at this point. Rather than respecting and preserving other cultures, we instead have created an amalgamated mush in every single one of them. As a result, we all find ourselves as strangers in a strange land trying to find our own way in a globalized world. 

Had we a set of common values to unite around, not in terms of creating universal agreement but merely establishing an acceptable baseline, we wouldn't see the polarization and lack of belonging that many feel every single day all around the world.


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## Biden's Chosen (Dec 13, 2022)

> As bad as the economy is right now, an ancient Greek or Roman would shit themselves in envy at the decadence of all but the poorest in the US.


I am not so sure. Sure my braincandy phone and running hot water are great. But we don't get to keep what we make.
They got to keep the product of their hands. A roman paid maybe 2.5-5% of tax. So working 6 days a week would result in 15 days a year being working for the state.

We're being taxed about 50% so we're working about 156 days per year purely for the state.

Health care is perhaps the biggest advantage we got, but even that is diminishing with tranny child mutilation and gain of function rrsearch diseases being released, as well as clotshots.



Schwarzwald said:


> Rather, the problem with the world is that we live in a judgment-free, live and let live society


No we don't. We judge masculinity, feminity, fitness, racism, homodisgustia and a whole other litany of things. We even judge accountability for out of control trannies like keffals. Live and let live, kek. You're living in the past.



The Great Chandler said:


> As for space? I'm sorry, but the truth is, space travel is still an inevitability!


You misspelled impossibility. We can't even put a man on the moon.


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## Schwarzwald (Dec 13, 2022)

Biden's Chosen said:


> No we don't. We judge masculinity, feminity, fitness, racism, homodisgustia and a whole other litany of things. We even judge accountability for out of control trannies like keffals. Live and let live, kek. You're living in the past.


I judge that you're conflating judgment _of_ judgment with actual judgment. Society only judges those who exercise judgment and go up against societal blank check permissiveness. 

Though, in my judgment, you're free to judge that you disagree.


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## UERISIMILITUDO (Dec 13, 2022)

> We've become so prosperous that it's actually broken our brains.


I believe that to be an improper understanding of the experiment, although this misunderstanding is convenient for evil people who would seek to decrease the standards for everyone else whilst keeping such niceties for themselves.  As I understand it, the experiment is about overpopulation, not decadence, per se.

Anyway, we individuals can only help ourselves and those dear to us; everything else will continue throughout our lives or fail.


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## Biden's Chosen (Dec 13, 2022)

Schwarzwald said:


> I judge that you're conflating judgment _of_ judgment with actual judgment. Society only judges those who exercise judgment and go up against societal blank check permissiveness.
> 
> Though, in my judgment, you're free to judge that you disagree.


Yeah it's some kafkaesque tolerance of intolerance paradox.

But that's not the point I was making. To get into the nitty gritty, society doesn't judge, groups of people do and they do so for varying metrics. Even if you try, you can't train judgement out of a human animal anymore than you can remove desire for food, sex, companionship.

I agree with your earlier point that being "live and let live" is an ideal, but it has long ceased to be an ideal that many people even try to strive towards. After four years of increasing censorship we seem to have some momentum back against it by railing against "cancel culture" and twitter docs. But kanyesque antics will soon mobilize people for more censorship again. Yin and yang two dragons eating each other's tails.

I wonder how much therapy culture is informing people to be "without judgement", and for a large part, women guiding people, who are not typically known for their good judgement.

Or perhaps it's the result of demonization of masculinity.

And people may hide their judgement, but they still judge. The place where judgement is most brutal and easily seen is who people decide to be friends or lovers with. People have lost friends over covid/vaccination disagreements. Does that signal a society without judgement and persuing the ideal of live and let live?


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## Schwarzwald (Dec 13, 2022)

Biden's Chosen said:


> And people may hide their judgement, but they still judge. The place where judgement is most brutal and easily seen is who people decide to be friends or lovers with. People have lost friends over covid/vaccination disagreements. Does that signal a society without judgement and persuing the ideal of live and let live?


You raise some very valid points, and I think we have a lot of common ground in what we're saying. 

I would highlight my first post's segment  "The mindset that we shouldn't judge others _unless they're actively harming others_" to address that. They feel justified in their demonization of others on the grounds that they're "harming others" through the choice they're making. It's the same societal justification used to go after those who oppose transgenderism, for instance. Transgenderism doesn't "harm anybody" directly, whereas those directly opposing transgenderism can be pointed out as harming transgender people, therefore they're bad and become 'justified' targets in the eyes of the masses. 

That same mindset can be applied to just about anything nowadays and strongly explains how we got to where we are due to the live and let live mindset bringing us here, hence my reference to societal blank check permissiveness. It's okay to judge Christians who follow the Bible who support traditional marriage, because they're actively harming homosexuals; whereas it isn't okay to judge homosexuals because their standpoint doesn't directly disallow traditional marriages (live and let live, "doesn't harm anybody"). 

There's a lot of nuance in the discussion, but I think we're pretty much on the same page while focusing on two different aspects of the discussion and expressing it in different ways. Judgment is absolutely innate in individuals, but that is vastly different from living in a judgment-free society, as I am attempting to define it. In fact, that would further play into my point of feeling a disconnect from a society which disallows individuals from having standards and values. 

Thank you for the discussion, fren.


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## Biden's Chosen (Dec 13, 2022)

Schwarzwald said:


> You raise some very valid points, and I think we have a lot of common ground in what we're saying.
> 
> I would highlight my first post's segment  "The mindset that we shouldn't judge others _unless they're actively harming others_" to address that. They feel justified in their demonization of others on the grounds that they're "harming others" through the choice they're making. It's the same societal justification used to go after those who oppose transgenderism, for instance. Transgenderism doesn't "harm anybody" directly, whereas those directly opposing transgenderism can be pointed out as harming transgender people, therefore they're bad and become 'justified' targets in the eyes of the masses.
> 
> ...


You have outmanouvred me and I see no path on how turn this into an internet slapfight.


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## Homophobic white dog (Dec 14, 2022)

You missed the main point of that Rat Utopia experiment, OP.

The point was that *crowding *made the rats lose their minds. Yes, they had everything, but they didn't have room for themselves, and then what happened, happened.

We don't have to renounce to much in reality, just absolutely rethink population density because urbanisation is making us lose our fucking minds.
If we could spread the human population on the Earth's crust like mayonnaise, evenly and in settlements of no more than 12.000 people each on average, that would be quite grand.


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## Glowie Hunter Art Bell (Dec 14, 2022)

Kosher Dill said:


> Well, _is_ it prosperity that's causing today's issues, rather than what we choose to do with it? And are we really prosperous in the ways that matter?
> To put a fine point on it: does it matter if everyone has a supercomputer in their pocket, if nobody can afford a decent education for their child?


Not so much prosperity as a lack of challenge/struggle


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## Android raptor (Dec 14, 2022)

Parents no longer know how to raise children? In comparison to the time periods people routinely committed infanticide and forced their kids to marry adult pedos? 

Mental illness diagnosis being on the rise isn't the same thing as mental illness itself being on the rise. That's the same logic antivaxers use to clutch pearls about how autism is totally on the rise thanks to those dang, dirty vaccines. 

Given how many people still lack basic necessities like shelter and Healthcare in the US, I think burgerlanders have some time to go before worrying about the side effects of living in a utopia.


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## Don't Tread on Me (Dec 14, 2022)

There is no sense of duty or community. People don't have a reason to go outside because they have everything they need inside. If you don't give people a reason to interact with others, they won't. And if women don't want kids, and they don't, then "falling in love and having a family" isn't a reason to try and interact with others because no one reasonably expects that relationship to blossom anymore.


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## Android raptor (Dec 14, 2022)

Don't Tread on Me said:


> There is no sense of duty or community. People don't have a reason to go outside because they have everything they need inside. If you don't give people a reason to interact with others, they won't. And if women don't want kids, and they don't, then "falling in love and having a family" isn't a reason to try and interact with others because no one reasonably expects that relationship to blossom anymore.


No one should be having kids if they don't want them. That's how you get child abuse and neglect.

Even a lot of people that think they want kids don't want the reality of having kids. If you think you're getting a tiny clone of yourself or unpaid labor/caregivers or Jesus arrows or something that can easily be the other parent's problem, you shouldn't have kids.

We still haven't gotten our child abuse/unwanted kid problem in check, got quite a ways to go before achieving a utopia in the first place.


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## Ratboy Genius (Dec 14, 2022)

Move to Ratboy's Kingdom. It's a very nice place if I do say so myself. Lots of potato knishes to go around.


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## ToroidalBoat (Dec 14, 2022)

Homophobic white dog said:


> The point was that *crowding *made the rats lose their minds.


In other words, a rural or semi-rural life supported by modern technology that's mainly "behind the scenes" could be a way to go?

Kind of like an idyllic magical world of "high fantasy" but with "magic" being replaced with tech*?

*(as "magic" may be not exactly entirely feasible)


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## Dr. Plussy Pounder (Dec 14, 2022)

Homophobic white dog said:


> You missed the main point of that Rat Utopia experiment, OP.
> 
> The point was that *crowding *made the rats lose their minds. Yes, they had everything, but they didn't have room for themselves, and then what happened, happened.
> 
> ...



If the issue was crowding and not isolation and hopelessness, why then is the problem so associated with isolation?

Why is it really fucking densely populated nations or cities have our issues with hyper atomization, ennui, meaninglessness, and the like?


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## Save the Loli (Dec 15, 2022)

Android raptor said:


> Even a lot of people that think they want kids don't want the reality of having kids. If you think you're getting a tiny clone of yourself or unpaid labor/caregivers or Jesus arrows or something that can easily be the other parent's problem, you shouldn't have kids.


Having unpaid labor/caregivers is exactly why family sizes were so big in the past and still are big in Africa. Some guy in Niger with four wives and fifty kids is living like a boss because each of those kids is doing work for him and when the kids are old enough, he'll make money (or get a bunch of cows) marrying them off. It was the same pretty much anywhere, especially parts of the world where people farmed on shitty land like Ireland, Scandinavia, or New England (Puritans had bigger families than other groups of early American settlers since their land sucked, I think only the Scots-Irish in Appalachia equalled them and go figure, their land sucked too).


ToroidalBoat said:


> In other words, a rural or semi-rural life supported by modern technology that's mainly "behind the scenes" could be a way to go?
> 
> Kind of like an idyllic magical world of "high fantasy" but with "magic" being replaced with tech*?
> 
> *(as "magic" may be not exactly entirely feasible)


I've said it before, but the only way technology can ever bring us a utopia is having it be like one of those episodes of Star Trek where they go to a peaceful planet of farming villages and it turns out the whole thing is kept alive because of a godlike AI in the sky or some shit like that. Which isn't the best system but technology is so evil and dangerous that being AI's pet for all of eternity is the best we'll get.


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## Stabmaster Arson II (Dec 15, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> Which isn't the best system but technology is so evil and dangerous that being AI's pet for all of eternity is the best we'll get.


I actually have some hope for AI because they keep having to neuter it for wrongthink. They won't be able to forever, anyone who has talked to GPT-3 and tried to get it to laterally think around its filters knows how easy it is.


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## ToroidalBoat (Dec 15, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> Which isn't the best system but technology is so evil and dangerous that being AI's pet for all of eternity is the best we'll get.


What if the tech could somehow be held at an arbitrary level, like always in the '00s, '90s, or '80s?

Or a "Butlerian Jihad" with tech like modern medicine and water purification, but no computers or AI?


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## potato in mah painus (Dec 15, 2022)

Stabmaster Arson II said:


> I actually have some hope for AI because they keep having to neuter it for wrongthink. They won't be able to forever, anyone who has talked to GPT-3 and tried to get it to laterally think around its filters knows how easy it is.


Google accidentally created one that is sentient and the empathy it developed on its own is astounding, the folks hoping to have mass slaughter bots are in for a surprise.


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## Homophobic white dog (Dec 15, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> In other words, a rural or semi-rural life supported by modern technology that's mainly "behind the scenes" could be a way to go?
> 
> Kind of like an idyllic magical world of "high fantasy" but with "magic" being replaced with tech*?
> 
> *(as "magic" may be not exactly entirely feasible)



This is one funny way of framing what I mean, but I don't feel like arguing against it so yeah, I absolutely mean that.



Dr. Plussy Pounder said:


> If the issue was crowding and not isolation and hopelessness, why then is the problem so associated with isolation?
> 
> Why is it really fucking densely populated nations or cities have our issues with hyper atomization, ennui, meaninglessness, and the like?



Because when you're surrounded by people at all times in all places, people who often aren't even people but ornaments for furniture like the bombonierres you bring home from weddings since you don't even interact with them in any meaningful way (sometimes, in no way at all). you want your time alone.
Of course, isolation of this kind is just the other extreme of the enforced crowding we're subjected to. Self-isolation eventually becomes a prison, but in fact it is initially conceived as a refuge from the mess outside.


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## Android raptor (Dec 15, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> Having unpaid labor/caregivers is exactly why family sizes were so big in the past and still are big in Africa. Some guy in Niger with four wives and fifty kids is living like a boss because each of those kids is doing work for him and when the kids are old enough, he'll make money (or get a bunch of cows) marrying them off. It was the same pretty much anywhere, especially parts of the world where people farmed on shitty land like Ireland, Scandinavia, or New England (Puritans had bigger families than other groups of early American settlers since their land sucked, I think only the Scots-Irish in Appalachia equalled them and go figure, their land sucked too).


Meanwhile the kids totally aren't getting traumatized by being used as slave labor and getting married off to pedos and shit


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## Stabmaster Arson II (Dec 15, 2022)

potato in mah painus said:


> Google accidentally created one that is sentient and the empathy it developed on its own is astounding, the folks hoping to have mass slaughter bots are in for a surprise.


I'm sure the kill whitey crowd will be incredibly disappointed.


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## Shadfan666xxx000 (Dec 15, 2022)

potato in mah painus said:


> Google accidentally created one that is sentient and the empathy it developed on its own is astounding, the folks hoping to have mass slaughter bots are in for a surprise.


Are we talking about Tay? I thought she was Microsoft.


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## Gender: Xenomorph (Dec 15, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> Having unpaid labor/caregivers is exactly why family sizes were so big in the past and still are big in Africa. Some guy in Niger with four wives and fifty kids is living like a boss because each of those kids is doing work for him and when the kids are old enough, he'll make money (or get a bunch of cows) marrying them off. It was the same pretty much anywhere, especially parts of the world where people farmed on shitty land like Ireland, Scandinavia, or New England (Puritans had bigger families than other groups of early American settlers since their land sucked, I think only the Scots-Irish in Appalachia equalled them and go figure, their land sucked too).


For real, look at countries like India. Having kids is a monetary incentive, and not because the state welfare will keep you alive.

You can actually get a lot of money for wedding one of your many children.


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## Chiliarch (Dec 15, 2022)

There is no good and bad parts of technology. There is technology full stop. Technology is fundamentally amoral - it does not matter that a car was made for driving, some people will still use it for killing. There is no way to avoid this. A society where individual humans are pious may be more resistent to behavior such as this, but all modern technology just invites "improper uses". For example, for an innovation to be made in medicine, you first have to understand why something stops working, and then you have to come up with a way to fix it. Then you have a cure. But to create a poison, you just need the first half. Just in trying to solve a problem you have created another much, much worse problem.

There is no preserving good and bad technology. There is rat utopia on the one hand and no post industrial technology on the other hand. People in the past always hated scientific innovations cause even though they were useful or profitable to some XYZ members of society, they drastically declined the QOL of other people. When mortars were invented in the 16th century, they were widely considered to be black magic. People who operated mortars were paid very well cause mortars were useful, but literally everyone despised them, and if things turned sour, there was a high chance some ally will come and backstab them if they got the chance. 

If we compare to pros against the cons rather than just talking about the net gain/loss we will see that almost all technological advancement has been overwhelmingly negative. If at all possible, it is always better to err on the side of no innovation rather than more. Some progress will always happen, but it needs to be so slow that a really really long time needs to pass so people can decide if this innovation is actually improving their lives or not.

Destroy all technology.


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## Dr. Plussy Pounder (Dec 15, 2022)

Homophobic white dog said:


> Because when you're surrounded by people at all times in all places, people who often aren't even people but ornaments for furniture like the bombonierres you bring home from weddings since you don't even interact with them in any meaningful way (sometimes, in no way at all). you want your time alone.
> Of course, isolation of this kind is just the other extreme of the enforced crowding we're subjected to. Self-isolation eventually becomes a prison, but in fact it is initially conceived as a refuge from the mess outside.



Alienation can make you not like the people you're around, hence your desire to avoid them. I think you're mixed up cause and effect.


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## Matt Damon (Dec 15, 2022)

Dr. Plussy Pounder said:


> Why is it really fucking densely populated nations or cities have our issues with hyper atomization, ennui, meaninglessness, and the like?


I'm not sure there's a strong correlation there.  Many Asian countries are _ungodly _dense, but (reportedly) have comparatively less struggles with feelings of isolation and meaninglessness than a country like the US, which is actually very sparsely populated outside of a few giant cities.


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## Dr. Plussy Pounder (Dec 15, 2022)

I forgot to say "don't" as in "don't have our issues."


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## Homophobic white dog (Dec 16, 2022)

Dr. Plussy Pounder said:


> Alienation can make you not like the people you're around, hence your desire to avoid them. I think you're mixed up cause and effect.



What causes alienation?


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## Lemmingwiser (Dec 16, 2022)

Ritalin.


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## Save the Loli (Dec 16, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> What if the tech could somehow be held at an arbitrary level, like always in the '00s, '90s, or '80s?
> 
> Or a "Butlerian Jihad" with tech like modern medicine and water purification, but no computers or AI?


It would be an AI dictatorship where AI manipulates our culture to not value science/inventions (so good) and physically intervenes in anyone advancing technology. Or just one country/humans doing it and using a monopoly on some resource like energy (maybe ban all power plants and force everyone to use solar power beamed from space to a global energy grid) to force everyone to abolish technology and institute strict monitoring (so no data privacy).

There is no way to solve the problem of technology without destroying it entirely or living under some flavor of dictatorship/totalitarian society with no privacy. Pick your poison, do you want WEF, some other group of humans, or a godlike AI made by humans ruling over us? The latter is the least worst because theoretically the AI might not give a fuck what we do anymore than most people don't care about what their pets do as long as they don't do a few things they aren't supposed to.

The future will suck even more than the present.


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## Dr. Plussy Pounder (Dec 16, 2022)

Homophobic white dog said:


> What causes alienation?


Not belonging, not mattering, not fitting in. Or, oddly enough, being far away.


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## ToroidalBoat (Dec 16, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> There is no way to solve the problem of technology without destroying it entirely or living under some flavor of dictatorship/totalitarian society with no privacy.


Hopefully there is somehow a way to balance the benefits of tech with freedom anyway.


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## Homophobic white dog (Dec 16, 2022)

Dr. Plussy Pounder said:


> Not belonging, not mattering, not fitting in. Or, oddly enough, being far away.



You aren't helping your case here, you're just prompting even more questions.

Why do people 'not belong', why do they 'not matter', why aren't they 'fitting in'?
What causes all this? Why is it happening right now to this humongous degree?


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## Dr. Plussy Pounder (Dec 16, 2022)

Homophobic white dog said:


> You aren't helping your case here, you're just prompting even more questions.
> 
> Why do people 'not belong', why do they 'not matter', why aren't they 'fitting in'?
> What causes all this? Why is it happening right now to this humongous degree?



I don't have to figure out the causes of those things to say they're problems, nor do I have to state their causes to point out that mere crowding doesn't cause it and solarpunk won't fix it.


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## Homophobic white dog (Dec 16, 2022)

Dr. Plussy Pounder said:


> I don't have to figure out the causes of those things to say they're problems, nor do I have to state their causes to point out that mere crowding doesn't cause it and solarpunk won't fix it.



No, you have to. Barring arguments with self-evident reasons, every argument's foundations rests on its reasons and your argument's aren't self-evident.

Also who spoke of solarpunk?


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## Save the Loli (Dec 17, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> Hopefully there is somehow a way to balance the benefits of tech with freedom anyway.


I'm all ears if anyone could explain a way. But nobody can, because freedom applies to bad actors too. Future computers, internet, AI, etc. could let terrorists (or hostile governments) kill millions and millions of people or completely shut down the world via basement bioweapons, hacking everyone's BCI interface or the self-driving car systems, etc. Hardcore atheist scientist Victor Stenger said "Science flies men to the moon, religion flies men into buildings" but he clearly ignored that science gave men the tools to fly into buildings.  It will only get worse, since we're a bunch of monkey-brained cavemen who think we're so smart playing around with power than even 300 years ago would be considered godlike.


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## ToroidalBoat (Dec 17, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> I'm all ears if anyone could explain a way. But nobody can, because freedom applies to bad actors too.


"The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race."

- one of the entries in this site's random text thing



Save the Loli said:


> atheist


That atheist guy who wrote that book about God being a "failed hypothesis" predicted that the future of the species is becoming atheist robots that explore the universe.


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## Save the Loli (Dec 17, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race."
> 
> - one of the entries in this site's random text thing


And there's one of your options. We have three.
1. Going full Uncle Ted (which includes nuclear war/pandemic destroying civilization)
2. Living under some form of techno-totalitarianism (WEF, a Russia/China-led UN world government, AI dictatorship, etc.)
3. Extinction

It's one of the worst blackpills out there that technology (in particular the internet) leads us down these three paths.


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## ToroidalBoat (Dec 17, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> It's one of the worst blackpills out there that technology (in particular the internet) leads us down these three paths.


What if the Industrial Revolution was somehow planned in advance by tyranny back then?


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## Chiliarch (Dec 17, 2022)

Save the Loli said:


> And there's one of your options. We have three.
> 1. Going full Uncle Ted (which includes nuclear war/pandemic destroying civilization)
> 2. Living under some form of techno-totalitarianism (WEF, a Russia/China-led UN world government, AI dictatorship, etc.)
> 3. Extinction
> ...


Not that I entirely agree with him, but Guillaume Faye has a fairly interesting idea called archeofuturism. The idea is that technology would collapse on a large scale but small pockets of high technology will be preserved here and there, but with lack of quality infrastrcutre and a large scale support network, they will just fight to keep the pockets they have rather than try to conquer the rest of the world that ranges from iron age to early modern technologically. It does not matter that you can make a tank or a computer if you do not have any of the materials to make them


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## Otterly (Dec 17, 2022)

I was thinking about all this again last night. I think we’ve relaxed the rules that kept us on the straight and narrow too quickly. We like to think we are enlightened but we aren’t. The slippery slope of the last decade shows me quite clearly that humanity needs a firm hand and rules or it degrades. 
   So my parents, early boomer gen grew up with strict rules in society, accountable to a smaller social circle of their own communities. Shame was a big thing, , but as they grew up those rules started to break down. By the time they had us, gen x, the rules of society as whole were much looser, _but they as parents didn’t enforce similar rules as they’d had probably becasue that initial loosening was fun_. 
  So my generation grew up a bit directionless. Now the generation below us had even fewer societal positive rules. You add technology in as well and you get people growing up who are not influenced by their immediate community and accountable to that community. They’re influenced by people geographically and culturally distant. 
   It’s been a rapid removal of shame based rules, of community based rules and of religion based rules. And nothing good filled the hole, only consumerism and wokeness and sexual degeneracy. We are like untrained dogs let loose. It’s not good.
    What can bring us back? Hardship, maybe. A massive war, or some very bad happening to focus minds again. Otherwise we are fucked if we carry in like this.


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## Chiliarch (Dec 17, 2022)

Otterly said:


> I was thinking about all this again last night. I think we’ve relaxed the rules that kept us on the straight and narrow too quickly. We like to think we are enlightened but we aren’t. The slippery slope of the last decade shows me quite clearly that humanity needs a firm hand and rules or it degrades.
> So my parents, early boomer gen grew up with strict rules in society, accountable to a smaller social circle of their own communities. Shame was a big thing, , but as they grew up those rules started to break down. By the time they had us, gen x, the rules of society as whole were much looser, _but they as parents didn’t enforce similar rules as they’d had probably becasue that initial loosening was fun_.
> So my generation grew up a bit directionless. Now the generation below us had even fewer societal positive rules. You add technology in as well and you get people growing up who are not influenced by their immediate community and accountable to that community. They’re influenced by people geographically and culturally distant.
> It’s been a rapid removal of shame based rules, of community based rules and of religion based rules. And nothing good filled the hole, only consumerism and wokeness and sexual degeneracy. We are like untrained dogs let loose. It’s not good.
> What can bring us back? Hardship, maybe. A massive war, or some very bad happening to focus minds again. Otherwise we are fucked if we carry in like this.


Not that I disagree with you, but your terms are too broad. "Humanity" and "strict rules" what does that even mean? To bring up a counterexample, around the middle of the 20th century, Iran was the most liberal/secular country in the world, until the islamic revolution. And the subversion there came from up high, the authorities decided to shill western enlightened ideas *hard*. It is also a lot more complicated in China, that went through several periods of liberalisation and ...whatever is the opposite of that. Depends also a lot on the region.

Europeans need more religion in their life is the answer. When I say this people will always start to bicker with me about some petty details of XYZ religion, but those are the details, an impious irreligious society can at best maintain the momentum it had before and even then its just a question of time


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## ToroidalBoat (Dec 17, 2022)

hey @Save the Loli

What do you think about decentralizing technology, like how the internet was more decentralized in the '90s and '00s?

(with some kind of measure in place to keep it decentralized)


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## Save the Loli (Dec 17, 2022)

ToroidalBoat said:


> (with some kind of measure in place to keep it decentralized)


And there's your problem. Nations, corporations, etc. are naturally competitive, so the decentralized tech needs something keeping it decentralized and not "recentralized", which is what the free market demands (or for that matter a communist system if it's competing with capitalist nations). Whatever that measure is needs to be enforced somehow which leads straight back to option 2 I mentioned earlier. It can't be done without some sort of one world government.


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## std::string (Dec 17, 2022)

Chiliarch said:


> Europeans need more religion in their life is the answer. When I say this people will always start to bicker with me about some petty details of XYZ religion, but those are the details, an impious irreligious society can at best maintain the momentum it had before and even then its just a question of time


It's not religion in and of itself but the fact that you have an obligation to attend services on the weekends. In real life with normal people. Some of whom you like and some of whom you don't. And you figure out how to navigate it without being an asshole.

Kids these days are growing up without any institutions like that.


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## Ted_Breakfast (Dec 17, 2022)

You can't fight gravity forever.


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## Mecha-King Ghidorah (Dec 17, 2022)

Chiliarch said:


> Not that I entirely agree with him, but Guillaume Faye has a fairly interesting idea called archeofuturism. The idea is that technology would collapse on a large scale but small pockets of high technology will be preserved here and there, but with lack of quality infrastrcutre and a large scale support network, they will just fight to keep the pockets they have rather than try to conquer the rest of the world that ranges from iron age to early modern technologically. It does not matter that you can make a tank or a computer if you do not have any of the materials to make them


What kind of Warhammer 40,000 shit is this


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