# Taiwan loses 3,000 chip engineers to 'Made in China 2025'



## MrTickles (Dec 3, 2019)

TAIPEI -- China is ramping up recruitment of Taiwanese talent in semiconductors, attracting top executives and engineers alike to bolster an industry that the U.S. trade war has shown to be a Chinese Achilles' heel.

The aggressive campaign has sparked concerns about a brain drain within Taiwan's chip industry, which is struggling to compete with generous offers by cash-rich mainland companies.

A man in his 50s left a longtime job at a leading Taiwanese semiconductor maker a year ago for a position on the mainland.


"It's only natural to want to launch a big project and increase my value as an engineer," he told Nikkei during a trip back to Taipei.

The man's salary more than doubled with the move, and his new employer pays for his child's private education. The decision was easy, the man said.

More than 3,000 semiconductor engineers have departed Taiwan for positions at mainland companies, the island's Business Weekly reports. Analysts at the Taiwan Institute of Economic Research say this figure appears to be accurate. That amounts to nearly one-tenth of Taiwan's roughly 40,000 engineers involved in semiconductor research and development.

The trend is not new. Richard Chang moved to the mainland in 2000 after his Taiwanese business was acquired by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., the world's leading contract chipmaker. Chang brought several hundred employees and launched Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp. in Shanghai.

SMIC is now the world's fifth-largest contract chipmaker and has become a key rival for TSMC with backing from Beijing.

TSMC's former chief operating officer, Chiang Shang-yi, and research and development executive, Liang Mong-song, have taken high-ranking roles at state-affiliated players in China. Charles Kao, known as the "godfather" of Taiwan's DRAM industry, also joined Tsinghua Unigroup in 2015. Unigroup competes with Taiwanese players like Nanya Technology in dynamic random access memory.

But such career moves have accelerated under Beijing's "Made in China 2025" plan to foster self-sufficiency in high-tech industries.

Semiconductor manufacturing is both capital- and talent-intensive: Even with the best equipment on the market, a company cannot mass-produce chips without technicians to work on them.

"Chinese players are now trying to overcome the barrier by recruiting not only top executives, but entire production teams on the ground," a Taiwanese industry insider said. "They are paying two to three times as much as Taiwanese companies."

Taiwanese companies are finding themselves outmatched.

"We are improving our compensation, but it is difficult to compete with mainland companies," Nanya Technology President Lee Pei-ing said.

Taiwan updated its trade secrets act in 2013, imposing prison sentences of up to 10 years for leaking corporate secrets outside the island. But this has not deterred career moves to the mainland in the semiconductor industry.

The effect of these transplants is noticeable. China's Changxin Memory Technologies and Yangtze Memory Technologies next year are slated to start mass-producing memory chips, one of Taiwan's strengths.

As a market for semiconductor manufacturing equipment, mainland China is expected to surpass Taiwan as the world's largest next year.

In addition to bolstering the mainland's chip industry, Beijing also may be rolling out the red carpet for Taiwanese engineers as a step toward its longtime goal of reunification. Beijing announced 26 measures in November aimed at treating Taiwanese equally to mainland Chinese, advocating for more Taiwanese to work and study on the mainland.

"The goal is to bring Taiwanese talent to the mainland and hollow out Taiwan," said Meng Chih-cheng, an associate professor at Taiwan's National Cheng Kung University.









						Taiwan loses 3,000 chip engineers to 'Made in China 2025'
					

Beijing rolls out red carpet with triple the pay and benefits




					asia.nikkei.com
				




Money talks. Politics walks.


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## Male Idiot (Dec 3, 2019)

You can't tell me Mong-song is not a name given by the meme gods.


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## Damn Near (Dec 3, 2019)

Chinks are greedy as fuck, I don't think democracy can make a dent in that


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## millais (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm still going to hold onto my shares in Taiwan Semi and my index fund that's invested in Taiwan Semi. Their growth might slow from Chinese competition, but I think they will hold their value well in the long run since they got that well-established supply chain from decades of being in the business.


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## AltisticRight (Dec 3, 2019)

Feeling less empathetic after seeing NABLA types being allowed in their faggot parades and bestiality being taught in books brainwashing kids into accepting sexual deviancy. 

Taiwan's total GDP used to be 75% of mainland China's, let's not forget that. Are their lives too good, they are now considering abolishing the age of consent, or is the plague of progressivism stagnating innovation and local industries, things that actually matter?


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## Iwasamwillbe (Dec 3, 2019)

> China is ramping up recruitment of Taiwanese talent in semiconductors, attracting top executives and engineers alike to bolster an industry *that the U.S. trade war has shown to be a Chinese Achilles' heel*.


At least they can admit this.

As for the rest of the article, I'm sure that 3000 Taiwanese engineers moving to China to work basically because of bribes is worrisome, if not new, as this article admits, but I'm more interested in what thus article is not saying. Things such as:

1. How many Taiwanese engineers are still in Taiwan, and would rather die than step foot in China? Taiwan doesn't exactly have a small population.

2. How does China treat the Taiwanese workers once they're inside China?

3. How many Taiwanese workers want to go back to Taiwan, for some reason or another? Are they even allowed to?

I'm sure @It's HK-47 and @Forever Sunrise have an idea as to what the answer to those two questions might be.


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## millais (Dec 3, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> At least they can admit this.
> 
> As for the rest of the article, I'm sure that 3000 Taiwanese engineers moving to China to work basically because of bribes is worrisome, if not new, as this article admits, but I'm more interested in what thus article is not saying. Things such as:
> 
> ...


I have a social circle that overlaps with the local Taiwanese and Overseas Chinese electrical/computer engineering community in my part of the world, and from what they have told me, it's actually very easy for Chinese companies to poach Taiwanese and Overseas Chinese engineers with generous offers of superior wages, superior fringe benefits, choice of department/position, etc.

Due to the One China Policy, Taiwanese citizens are not required to get any special visa or residency papers in order to live/work in China, and it's fairly easy for them to access Chinese state services once they are settled and registered. They have no trouble at all with remitting their wages back to Taiwan if they don't feel comfortable trusting their money to Chinese banks or investing in Chinese real estate, and in fact, a lot of them just work in China long enough to build up their nest egg and then go back to their family in Taiwan or the West.

However, the Chinese corporate/academic headhunting strategy is most effective at grabbing up second-rate Taiwanese and Overseas Chinese engineers and programmers, who have limited prospects for career advancement in their current position in the West.

Usually the most brilliant and talented Taiwanese and Overseas Chinese engineers would prefer the lower paying American or Taiwanese position over the Chinese offer because it's a better work environment and many of them already have a substantial amount of control in running their academic or corporate department. Unless they are financially strapped or dissatisfied with their current job due to lack of influence or status, they are unlikely to go to China. There's no shame in going to China since in nearly all cases it's a profitable decision, but the unspoken implication is that most people go to China if they couldn't find success or otherwise hack it in Taiwan or the West.


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## MrTickles (Dec 3, 2019)

Huawei for starters operates numerous research centers in the west, employing Germans, brits, americans etc. Multinationals are a way to poach local talent, naturally.

And beyond a certain point this whole scenario is largely redundant long term, since China's local talent pool is increasing rapidly due to the huge population. It will not need to rely on foreign experts in any fields for much longer. There is no shortage of brainpower, money and incentive.


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## Cedric_Eff (Dec 3, 2019)

Bruh Mainland China is full of syphilis and HIV, don’t wanna go to some nasty ass country.


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## Marissa Moira (Dec 3, 2019)

MrTickles said:


> Huawei for starters operates numerous research centers in the west, employing Germans, brits, americans etc. Multinationals are a way to poach local talent, naturally.
> 
> And beyond a certain point this whole scenario is largely redundant long term, since China's local talent pool is increasing rapidly due to the huge population. It will not need to rely on foreign experts in any fields for much longer. There is no shortage of brainpower, money and incentive.


Except you're assuming that Xi won't fuck up.

Historically all of Chinese leadership will fuck up, look at the fucking laundry list of emperors who fucked up and sent the country into multiple civil wars. Xi is not a competent leader to begin with and him being made dictator just accelerates his incompetence. China has zero checks and balances in it's government and when the government heads off the cliff it's going to cause the country to splinter.

Because that's what always happens when a dictatorship falls the next stage is always splinter groups who try and claim control.


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## TaimuRadiu (Dec 3, 2019)

Chinese Taipei cont


Marissa Moira said:


> Except you're assuming that Xi won't fuck up.
> 
> Historically all of Chinese leadership will fuck up, look at the fucking laundry list of emperors who fucked up and sent the country into multiple civil wars. Xi is not a competent leader to begin with and him being made dictator just accelerates his incompetence. China has zero checks and balances in it's government and when the government heads off the cliff it's going to cause the country to splinter.
> 
> Because that's what always happens when a dictatorship falls the next stage is always splinter groups who try and claim control.


If Mao couldn't lose the Mandate of Heaven Paramount Leader Pooh Bear won't either.

Taiwan, PROVINCE OF CHINA, number 2, PRC number one!


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## Marissa Moira (Dec 3, 2019)

TaimuRadiu said:


> Chinese Taipei cont
> 
> If Mao couldn't lose the Mandate of Heaven Paramount Leader Pooh Bear won't either.
> 
> Taiwan, PROVINCE OF CHINA, number 2, PRC number one!


You're gonna get a ton of Mandates of Heaven once the Chinese Stock market collapses like a 2 year old apartment complex.


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## MrTickles (Dec 3, 2019)

Marissa Moira said:


> Except you're assuming that Xi won't fuck up.
> 
> Historically all of Chinese leadership will fuck up, look at the fucking laundry list of emperors who fucked up and sent the country into multiple civil wars. Xi is not a competent leader to begin with and him being made dictator just accelerates his incompetence. China has zero checks and balances in it's government and when the government heads off the cliff it's going to cause the country to splinter.
> 
> Because that's what always happens when a dictatorship falls the next stage is always splinter groups who try and claim control.



You're not exactly working to the strengths of your argument.

Historically for over 2,000 years China as a literal absolute monarchy comprised 40-50% global gdp, embarked on grandiose public works projects that make rome's efforts look like shit, and was the most technologically advanced state until at least the 17th century. They were eating fucking burgers with ketchup and pickles in Xi'an before Europe knew what the fuck sliced bread buns and mixed beef/pork patties were.

So....if precedent is anything to go by.

Just because a mere 1-2 centuries of political instability coincided with chance European industrialization (Romans could have industrialized, due to slavery they didn't, similarly chinese with their massive workforce didn't need automation until automation became very elaborate) doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things. China is going back to its natural place, on top.


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## CWCchange (Dec 4, 2019)

^Arguably they are at the moment, but if precedent is anything to go by, they will soon collapse into shitholdom again.


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## Marissa Moira (Dec 4, 2019)

MrTickles said:


> You're not exactly working to the strengths of your argument.
> 
> Historically for over 2,000 years China as a literal absolute monarchy comprised 40-50% global gdp, embarked on grandiose public works projects that make rome's efforts look like shit, and was the most technologically advanced state until at least the 17th century. They were eating fucking burgers with ketchup and pickles in Xi'an before Europe knew what the fuck sliced bread buns and mixed beef/pork patties were.
> 
> ...


How many more threads do you have to make praising china, until they let you out of The Chair?


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## Fluke (Dec 9, 2019)

For the smart bois in this thread. Why hasnt china rolled up on taiwan? It kind of seems like taiwan could be brute forced by the chinks if they wanted to? so why not?


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## Qi Meng Dealer (Dec 10, 2019)

Fluke said:


> For the smart bois in this thread. Why hasnt china rolled up on taiwan? It kind of seems like taiwan could be brute forced by the chinks if they wanted to? so why not?



I could be wrong about this, but I think the Taiwan Relations Act has legalese in there that says that the US may opt to act in cases where Taiwan is threatened in a non-peaceful manner or something. It’s not a defense guarantee, mind, but the risk is still there if China opts to brute force it.

And I guess it’s not a good look for China internationally if they brute force it, considering they’re trying to negotiate with other countries to buy into their new Silk Road initiative.


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## millais (Dec 10, 2019)

Fluke said:


> For the smart bois in this thread. Why hasnt china rolled up on taiwan? It kind of seems like taiwan could be brute forced by the chinks if they wanted to? so why not?


Firstly the Chinese have to weigh the risk of triggering a war with USA by violating Taiwanese sovereignty. Right now USA guarantees de facto Taiwanese national sovereignty by force of arms, so until the defense treaty is revoked by American Congress, there is the risk of drawing American intervention into any military invasion scenario. And a war over Taiwan may not remain a strictly Sino-American conflict. France and Netherlands still sell weapons and military technology to Taiwan in defiance of Chinese protests to the contrary, and it's quite likely that in the event of a war, China would issue some kind of ultimatum for such countries to cease arms sales or else be sanctioned, which would further isolate China during such a crisis.

Secondly, Taiwan is a very small and crowded island, so any military invasion will absolutely obliterate the local economic infrastructure to the point that post-war reconstruction cost will be more than the economic gain of acquiring the war-damaged Taiwanese GDP. The Chinese plan is to hit all the Taiwanese police stations, strategic fuel reserves, military bases, highways, hospitals, telecoms network, power plants, and government offices in the first round of bombing and airborne assaults, but all these kinds of strategic targets are located in the middle of heavily populated Taiwanese cities, which will basically be leveled in the process. Forty years ago, it might have been worth it to the Chinese since their own national GDP was proportionally minuscule compared to that of Taiwan, but now the Chinese GDP completely dwarfs that of Taiwan.

Thirdly, most of the wealthiest Taiwanese citizens and multinationals have an easy way to rapidly transfer all their money and liquid assets to accounts or subsidiaries in the US, Japan, etc, so in the event of a war scare, much of the Taiwanese GDP will be whisked away to overseas bank accounts in a matter of weeks, never to return. Think like how the rich Hong Kongers crashed the Hong Kong economy by dumping all their real estate and holdings and taking all that money to UK and Canada in the months leading up to the 1997 transfer of HK sovereignty to China. In an invasion of Taiwan, the Chinese would be left holding an empty bag.

Fourthly, it's way easier and cheaper for the Chinese to subvert Taiwan by non-military means. The KMT Nationalist Party (currently in opposition) in Taiwan will basically do China's bidding and it's fairly easy for the Chinese to give them electoral victory by promising to lift sanctions on Taiwanese economy and trade when the KMT gets elected back into power.

Fifthly, it's much better for the Chinese to be able to reserve the Taiwan issue as a conveniently unifying rallying cry for stirring up Chinese nationalism and patriotic sentiment when it is needed. As an authoritarian, one-party state with few outlets for discontent and anger in the event of a major economic downturn or social unrest, the Chinese government sees an independent Taiwan as a useful distraction from domestic trouble and dissent. The Chinese people from different regions and different social classes and different ethnicities might not see eye to eye on many issues, but the one thing they can all get behind is China's inherent right to rule Taiwan. The next time China's economy crashes and the Chinese people are getting ready to turn out in the streets to lynch the politicians and businessmen they think are responsible for the misfortune, the Chinese government will simply be able to declare its intent to retake Taiwan by force in the coming months, and pretty much all the Chinese people will be happy to temporarily set aside their differences to unite behind this one common goal. You must understand that since 1949, each successive generation of Chinese people have been drilled from their formative grade school years to believe that it is their national birthright and their most patriotic duty to seize control of Taiwan from the Western-backed usurpers.


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## Bad Headspace (Dec 10, 2019)

Simply the Mainland is way too strong economically and as a market to ignore. If the Taiwan business elite feels they will have better fortunes by re-integrating Taiwan might just form a kind of psuedo-semi-independent union with China. Of course Chinese handling of Hong Kong is not giving the Elite in Taiwan much proof of their future safety. Currently they would be afraid that they and their assets would be just absorbed into one of those huge Chinese conglomerates which are close to the communist party, thus have way more leverage over the newly joined Taiwanese businesses.  

Basically Taiwan might just run to mama China's skirt if the USA market is unable to give their economical elites enough money.


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## TaterBot (Dec 11, 2019)

Communists can't help themselves, they can't resist resorting to strongarm methods. Then everybody who thought they were going for the fat carrot will get the big stick instead.


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## awoo (Dec 12, 2019)

millais said:


> You must understand that since 1949, each successive generation of Chinese people have been drilled from their formative grade school years to believe that it is their national birthright and their most patriotic duty to seize control of Taiwan from the Western-backed usurpers.



You don't need to exaggerate. From my experience most mainlanders believe that Taiwan is part of China but they're not going to go up in arms all militaristic about it. No one on either side thinks a war is a good idea. Most citizens currently care more about the latest phone, or that new restaurant that just opened, or which talk show hosts are dating, than performing their patriotic duty. The people are very occupied with materialism from the country becoming rapidly developed.



Marissa Moira said:


> You're gonna get a ton of Mandates of Heaven once the Chinese Stock market collapses like a 2 year old apartment complex.



Ok, you can put on your tin-foil hat and go to your government collapse bunker. The PRC has been very deliberate and careful in growing its economy in the past 30 years and ensuring political stability. The Chinese market is massive and there is tons of global investors with vested interest.


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## Reverend (Dec 12, 2019)

Cedric_Eff said:


> Bruh Mainland China is full of syphilis and HIV, don’t wanna go to some nasty ass country.



This is why you import your foreign mistress' from country's that don't have that problem: indonesian, malaysia, vietnam, etc.  Chinese don't give two shits what you are doing on the side as long as it doesn't interfere with business and you keep getting those 8-10% margins year over year.


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## The Demon Pimp of Razgriz (Feb 22, 2020)

millais said:


> Firstly the Chinese have to weigh the risk of triggering a war with USA by violating Taiwanese sovereignty. Right now USA guarantees de facto Taiwanese national sovereignty by force of arms, so until the defense treaty is revoked by American Congress, there is the risk of drawing American intervention into any military invasion scenario. And a war over Taiwan may not remain a strictly Sino-American conflict. France and Netherlands still sell weapons and military technology to Taiwan in defiance of Chinese protests to the contrary, and it's quite likely that in the event of a war, China would issue some kind of ultimatum for such countries to cease arms sales or else be sanctioned, which would further isolate China during such a crisis.
> 
> Secondly, Taiwan is a very small and crowded island, so any military invasion will absolutely obliterate the local economic infrastructure to the point that post-war reconstruction cost will be more than the economic gain of acquiring the war-damaged Taiwanese GDP. The Chinese plan is to hit all the Taiwanese police stations, strategic fuel reserves, military bases, highways, hospitals, telecoms network, power plants, and government offices in the first round of bombing and airborne assaults, but all these kinds of strategic targets are located in the middle of heavily populated Taiwanese cities, which will basically be leveled in the process. Forty years ago, it might have been worth it to the Chinese since their own national GDP was proportionally minuscule compared to that of Taiwan, but now the Chinese GDP completely dwarfs that of Taiwan.
> 
> ...



As an aside to this, the Taiwanese military isn't powerless. They've spent decades preparing for one thing: potential Chinese invasion. They will make any attempted attack on Taiwan as painful as possible, and they've got western technology China doesn't have access to, like Abrams tanks and stingers.


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## Slap47 (Feb 22, 2020)

Damn Near said:


> Chinks are greedy as fuck, I don't think democracy can make a dent in that



Nah, most people would abandon their nation for a payout. Good states tend to incentivize their people to stay. 

Europe: People are connected to a web of public services
America: American opportunities and freedoms keep people happy 

Nobody else has anything to offer so you see massive brain drain. China can afford to bribe people but their country is crippled by brain drain.


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## The best and greatest (Mar 1, 2020)

In a related matter, how many of these engineers do you think got sick with Corona and what impact will that have on these labor shifts? Negative presumably.


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