# Why does everyone hate math instead of English?



## FuckedUp (Jun 13, 2020)

As Greek philosopher TheOdd1sOut once said, "either you're good at math and bad at reading, or you're weird." Well, apparently nearly everyone else is weird.

Like, I learned to read by myself at age 3, but English was always more painful. In math it was always just drilling this one new concept (which I usually figured out before the teacher explained it, until reaching calculus), while in English it was always "read thirty pages of this shitty overdramatic book and analyze the fuck out of it." But whenever the topic of "worst class" is brought up, it's ALWAYS math. Elementary and middle school weren't _complete_ torture and I got mostly B's in middle school (no letter grades in elementary), but high school was AWFUL.

Like around October-November of 10th grade, Chemistry made us do basic addition to figure out compatible ionic bonds, math was just simplifying and expanding polynomials as well as going over the trig already done in 8th and 9th grade, and English made you read like 20-30 pages of Macbeth EVERY NIGHT, write a 2-3 paragraph response regarding some character's motive or the seating arrangement or whatever, then discuss it in a group the next day while you have absolutely no fucking idea what to say because you didn't actually read all that shit and BS'd the response (which you failed), but of course everyone ELSE made sure to thoroughly read it. Then those people who actually had all the time to do that shit complain about how hard it is to do literal kindergarten math to figure out which ions form bonds with each other. I was ALWAYS at the D+/C- cutoff in high school English classes.

Fucking differential equations as a 6-week summer course was WAY easier than 9th grade English. Fuck essays. The hardest proofs I've encountered in upper-level math classes are at MOST as hard as the typical daily high school English reading response.


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## NOT Sword Fighter Super (Jun 13, 2020)

Because math always has a correct answer, but English has a lot more leeway. 

I mean you can't write an essay on how oppressed you are as a trans woman in math.


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## FuckedUp (Jun 13, 2020)

NOT Sword Fighter Super said:


> Because math always has a correct answer, but English has a lot more leeway.


That's one of the biggest reasons WHY English sucks 1000 dicks. You can write what you THINK is correct, only to get a failing grade because you didn't give enough examples or some shit (which happened with at least half of my essays).


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## Celebrate Nite (Jun 13, 2020)

I always hated both in school.  I was more of a Science person,  I Aced biology and got B's and C's in Earth Science (don't ask me what metamorphic, igneous or sedimentary rocks are though, that got deleted from my brain along time ago)

I can't do algebra for shit, and the only time I gave a fuck in English was when we were reading "12 Angry Men" because i like that kind of stuff.


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## The Last Stand (Jun 13, 2020)

Math involves a lot of equations, work and logic. Make one mistake on a complex question, and the whole answer can be wrong.

Rounding plays a role in that.


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## oldTireWater (Jun 13, 2020)

NOT Sword Fighter Super said:


> Because math always has a correct answer, but English has a lot more leeway.


That's why I prefer math. English requires creativity, and judgement. Math is just grinding.


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## WarJams (Jun 13, 2020)

Because when you are bad at math, you know you are bad at math.

When you are bad with english, you can't tell because everyone else is bad too.


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## FuckedUp (Jun 13, 2020)

WarJams said:


> Because when you are bad at math, you know you are bad at math.
> 
> When you are bad with english, you can't tell because everyone else is bad too.


Pretty easy to tell when you ask the kids next to you what they got on the essay you failed and they say they fucked up and only got a B.


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## Slap47 (Jun 13, 2020)

Highschool teachers are usually pretty bad at teaching. English should be easy since it is literally just understanding what the author was saying by learning about people and historical events. Most English majors don't study any history so It's weird how they're even able to understand what they end up teaching. 

Writing something that doesn't read like shit is pretty hard but that's because it's an art.


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## FuckedUp (Jun 13, 2020)

Slap47 said:


> Highschool teachers are usually pretty bad at teaching. English should be easy since it is literally just understanding what the author was saying by learning about people and historical events.


Yeah, that's what everyone says about English class. I think my experience might've had something to do with my high school being competitive as fuck where the average student's target schools are Boston College and Brandeis and the like.


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## Zeke Von Genbu (Jun 13, 2020)

It depends on the type of person you are. It is very common for people who like math to hate english/writing and vice versa. They're on almost two polar opposites in the types of people they typically attract.


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## Massa's Little Buckie (Jun 13, 2020)

I taught myself English, but I couldn't teach myself math


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## Notgoodwithusernames (Jun 13, 2020)

Ive hated math but now that Im no longer being forced to do it Ive developed a bit more appreciation for it


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## Mr. ShadowCreek (Jun 13, 2020)

Math was always my worst in school. I actually had to be taken out of my algebra class in middle school and be put in a lower class. It's a miracle I passed it in college. Though I got a lot of help from my teacher and the internet. History was my far my best. I easily understood it. I could remember dates, people, events. Reading was pretty easy too, just not up there with history. I think I liked those more because they weren't as linear. They could have opinions and could go many different ways. Math there is only one answer, the right answer. You mess up once by writing the wrong number or putting a decimal in the wrong place the whole thing is screwed up. After that you get frustrated and it gets harder to think straight so you're more likely to mess up. This still happens in reading and history though. You might get the date wrong or who was involved but you can still have an opinion on that event that isn't wrong or right. I can get into an actual story. I don't care when Bob and Joe are going to pass each other because Bob is driving at 40 mph and Joe is driving at 20 mph.


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## Mao Hao Hao (Jun 13, 2020)

I am the absolute worst at math, even the most basic life skills kind of math I end up struggling with. English and science were my top subjects (not physics though, that was just math wearing a science coat). It sucks though, as I couldn't go into the profession I wanted to due to maths being a requirement for studying it, despite my high levels in science. I'm not sure why I am so bad, I had good teachers and my parents taught me stuff at a younger age, so I guess something is just broken inside when it comes to working any kind of maths/time/money etc.


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## The best and greatest (Jun 13, 2020)

English is only boring because totalitarian English departments demand you read to kill a mocking bird over and over again.


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## Twinkletard (Jun 13, 2020)

The only thing I liked in school was checking out girl's asses.


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## Queen Elizabeth II (Jun 13, 2020)

Because math is Asian and you're all literally Nazis.


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## Immortal Technique (Jun 13, 2020)

No one really hates math until the alphabet letters start to show up in problems. There are no shortcuts in math unlike in English, where I could just download the Cliff Notes and not actually have to read the whole book.


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## CivilianOfTheFandomWars (Jun 13, 2020)

Because English is typically easier if you know how to bullshit. Most questions that aren’t about rules or mechanics can answer themselves. That, and essays are easy enough to write if you have enough to work with.
Math, it’s no bullshit. You are right or wrong and there’s not a middle ground. On one hand, that’s good for math itself. It’s a fundamental law of our universe and isn’t exactly subjective. But on the other, the US curriculum sucks at teaching it. You do use math all the time, but not in the way you were taught.
PL, but I think it’s a decent example of how math can be fun. Back in Elementary, my school decided to make the kids have a certain number of hours of ‘free math’, where you were supposed to find math to do in the library or Internet or whatever. As long as it was math and your parent said you did it, they didn’t care. So, what my dad did was have us just play Backgammon and Poker with him for a few hours a week and he signed off on the paper saying we were learning ‘arithmetic and odds’.
So, math isn’t taught well and it’s easier to slapdick your way through English if you know what the teacher’s looking for.


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## Tad Loaf (Jun 13, 2020)

At the risk of sounding like a retard, it's because math appears more arbitrary than English. Sure addition/multiplication/ratios/percentages/etc all have their daily life applications and needs but once you get the more "advanced" math that doesn't really have any application to 98% of the population, it starts to come off random and obtuse.


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## The Fifth Waltz (Jun 13, 2020)

You also have to memorize steps to solve a problem in math or else you're just fucked. I'm so bad at math I started my downward spiral when multiplication was introduced. Throughout school I had a math tutor all the way up until we were completely done math at 16. At least I'm good at bullshitting essays and science.


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## Jetpack Himmler (Jun 13, 2020)

Slap47 said:


> Highschool teachers are usually pretty bad at teaching. English should be easy since it is literally just understanding what the author was saying by learning about people and historical events. Most English majors don't study any history so It's weird how they're even able to understand what they end up teaching.


I actually minored in History when working on my Bachelor's in English. Personally, I was pretty lousy at math in High School due to lack of interest and didn't have a great love of English either because wanted to something more creative. My best subject was Social Studies because history was always something that interested me. Studying literature supposedly helps develop critical thinking skills, but I have to wonder if that is really the case as a whole generation of SJWs have thought processes that can be boiled down to buzzwords and stock phrases. Hell, this talk of "decolonizing literature" and cancel culture sounds dangerously close to book burning.

Fuck. The humanities are truly a blight on the human intellect the more I think about it.


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## FuckedUp (Jun 13, 2020)

Mr. ShadowCreek said:


> You might get the date wrong or who was involved but you can still have an opinion on that event that isn't wrong or right. I can get into an actual story. I don't care when Bob and Joe are going to pass each other because Bob is driving at 40 mph and Joe is driving at 20 mph.





CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> Because English is typically easier if you know how to bullshit. Most questions that aren’t about rules or mechanics can answer themselves. That, and essays are easy enough to write if you have enough to work with.


Except when entire paragraphs are crossed out in pen and get 20% deducted because it focused on something only _nearly_ the same as the guidelines, or the examples given don't _perfectly_ fit, or the examples don't have _enough_ explanation, or there aren't _enough_ examples. I still have no idea how the fuck my classmates managed to consistently get higher than F's on English essays, let alone ace them.


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## TFT-A9 (Jun 13, 2020)

I'm not GREAT at math, but up to, say, high-school-senior levels I'm fairly competent at it.  I start slowing down when I encounter college-level math, but can still get through most of it (short of calc, I suppose).

English? I fucking OBLITERATE English classes.  If I don't end up at the top of the class in any given English or tangentially related course, something along the line went REALLY wrong.

Regarding sciences: Most entry-level college chem math is honestly fairly easy, feels like a retread of high school sometimes.  It's when you get into Physics and related math that I start scratching my head.  Some of the other sciences like biology and ecology and so on will have math involved, and it ranges from pretty easy to "I have no idea what I'm doing lol".


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## Kosher Dill (Jun 13, 2020)

What makes math different from English is _abstraction_. Let's take the first thing math students learn to hate: word problems. Why do people hate analyzing a paragraph to solve a math problem, but have no problem analyzing a paragraph to write a response for English class?
To solve that word problem, you need to read the little story about Amy and Bob Aisha and Daquon buying stuff at the store, and transform that into a mathematical structure that captures all the mathematical details and ignores the rest. That's kind of a weird and specialized skill, even though it's probably second nature by now. How do you tell what the "mathematical" parts of a story are? When do you combine parts of the story separated by time into one equation and when do you split them up? And so on.

In English class, you can just say "Hamlet was a dick" if you think he was a dick.


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## FuckedUp (Jun 13, 2020)

Kosher Dill said:


> In English class, you can just say "Hamlet was a dick" if you think he was a dick.


What high schools did you all go to where you could
a. make declarations like that without providing absolutely _perfect, unequivocal_ evidence by providing tons of unambiguous quotes and other citations that cannot be interpreted in *any* other way, and
b. just read the Cliff Notes
and get more than a 0?


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## Kosher Dill (Jun 13, 2020)

FuckedUp said:


> providing absolutely _perfect, unequivocal_ evidence by providing tons of unambiguous quotes and other citations that cannot be interpreted in *any* other way


I never heard of anyone demanding that kind of "proof" in an English class - in fact most teachers would probably deny that such a thing is even possible in any work sophisticated enough to have literary merit. Typically what they'll ask is just that you make some sort of coherent argument supported with quotations and sources and structured in some reasonable way.


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## Elaine Benes (Jun 13, 2020)

I was an A/high B student in all my English and history classes (I ended up majoring in the latter) but I was terrible in math until I realized that taking honors-level classes in that subject wasn't doing me any favors. I eventually starting taking regular-level math and science and I was much more comfortable with the slower pace.


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## Syaoran Li (Jun 13, 2020)

I always loved History and English but hated math

Math was my weakest subject and it was also the most boring to me as a kid.

I think that's why so many kids don't like math is because it's entirely cold logic and everything is objective. With English and History, there's a lot more stuff to appeal to the "creative" mind and a narrative story is naturally appealing to the human brain. While history itself is not a narrative, it does have a lot of cool elements that do overlap with pop culture and culture in general.

Math is just numbers and logic, and it's always objective. 

History has so many different eras and different parts of the world, and English has so many things to read and write about it. 

Even if the stuff they teach in public school is boring to you, you can easily branch off outside the standard curriculum and read up on whatever subject on your spare time and it's a lot more accessible.

Math has different fields but they differ mainly in how complex they are.

So, what makes math appealing to some is the exact same thing that makes it unappealing to others.

Again, this is mostly speaking from the public school point of view.


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## Agent Abe Caprine (Jun 13, 2020)

Always had trouble with it in school despite liking it due to being a hands-on learner. Was doing great in 5th grade when the teacher allowed small blocks to be used as aids. Come next year, my precious blocks are gone.


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## Tour of Italy (Jun 13, 2020)

The middle class is dying because students hate math and they’re cracking jokes about it as they wither.

“Oh my god who would ever need to use algebra or understand word problems”

Anyone who wants even the barest fucking chance of managing their finances and not spending the rest of their lives in debt.

Never mind anything beyond that like helping choose intelligent public policy or understanding a tech based service economy.

Learn math you morons. Even if you hate it.


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## Slimy Time (Jun 13, 2020)

NOT Sword Fighter Super said:


> Because math always has a correct answer, but English has a lot more leeway.
> 
> I mean you can't write an essay on how oppressed you are as a trans woman in math.


Lol remember Common Core mathematics making the news in Obama's reign? You can get two different answers based on the order of operations, and BOTH are correct. They tried to English literature mathematics.

Wasn't very good at it during school, and don't use it enough now to be competent in any manner, but I see its use. At least know a few applied mathematical points if you don't do a job that requires mathematics- arithmetic, percentages, calculating interest etc. Never know when you need it. Without those, expect to get raped on taxes, financial management, loans and interest rates.

In terms of why people hate mathematics in school, I think it's the snowball effect that Maths has combined with poor teaching. If you don't have a good foundation, or lack in certain areas, then you are fucked when you go up another level. Don't understand algebra? Have fun with differentiation when you get up to High School mathematics or something similar and you have to do it. With English, you can bullshit, there is more leeway so even if you don't do well, you won't necessarily bomb the paper. Combine this with shit teaching at a young age, and you end up with kids with weak fundamentals who don't get maths and they are forced to do it, so they end up going "fuck it, I hate it".

Now that I'm older, I see it more as a machine. You have x formula, so long as you can recognise what to look for and how to apply it and do the correct, logical steps, you can always, ALWAYS get the correct answer.


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## Brain.exe (Jun 13, 2020)

For math, you can use rules to eventually find one concrete solution and  it's essentially just playing around with numbers and rules. There's pretty much a set path to find each solution, while in English, things are A LOT more subjective, where you have to analyze some minor part of a boring text and find out how that impacts the whole story or whatever. I think that's the reason why math comes easily to me but English doesn't.


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## BarberFerdinand (Jun 13, 2020)

Because seven eight nine.


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## The best and greatest (Jun 13, 2020)

Tour of Italy said:


> The middle class is dying because students hate math and they’re cracking jokes about it as they wither.
> 
> “Oh my god who would ever need to use algebra or understand word problems”
> 
> ...


I wouldn't think managing personal  finances would take anything more  than an  Algebra level understanding of mathematics. If you know how  to project data on a chart and budget your income you're pretty much  good no?


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## Tour of Italy (Jun 13, 2020)

The best and greatest said:


> I wouldn't think managing personal  finances would take anything more  than an  Algebra level understanding of mathematics. If you know how  to project data on a chart and budget your income you're pretty much  good no?


Statistics help, and the confidence to apply abstract mathematical concepts to real world data, which comes with mastery of the fundamentals.

Hell, even higher math has a lot value in terms of critical thinking and the ability to break complex problems into component parts, valuable life skills that apply to finances as well.

I only bring it up because every time I see complaints about high school math in the wild, I find myself ready to agree partially (not everyone needs to know calculus or until they specifically reference basic shit like algebra and my sympathy dries up.


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## Slap47 (Jun 13, 2020)

Tour of Italy said:


> The middle class is dying because students hate math and they’re cracking jokes about it as they wither.
> 
> “Oh my god who would ever need to use algebra or understand word problems”
> 
> ...



The middle class is dying because people are skipping out on the trades. You do not need a mastery of algebra to be a tradesmen.


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## ShortBusDriver (Jun 13, 2020)

Because you can't fake math

Next time some hotep with a degree is flapping their gums on CNN look them up

Their degree is never in a hard science.


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## not william stenchever (Jun 13, 2020)

I am one of those rare individuals who has always been okay at math (my main problems with it always came from "I know the procedure I can stop practicing now") and above average at writing. I was reading Dune in the 4th grade and would use cliff notes to avoid reading assigned books I knew would be an unenjoyable slog. I decided, in essence, to read a better book.


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## DavieJones714 (Jun 13, 2020)

If you don't understand something or miss math lessons, it can be hard for some to fully catch up and seems to lead to a bad math experience. English is often interpretation and expression so less to miss, besides grammar rules.


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## I Love Beef (Jun 13, 2020)

My problem was that Math was less applied and given more emphasis on "to learn for the sake of being learned".

English? You need to read and be able to understand language because you're going to be using it day in and day out of your waking life. Math? Unless it's arithmetic or related with counting, probability, algebra, and missing scores, I could not for the life of me find any reason to apply math to anything in life other than for basic shit like tallying up money and inventory. Unless I wanted to do something professional that was related with math, like programming and physics formulas, math in reality is a very limited subject to apply on the fly. Mathematics can be fun and rewarding to learn, but it is poorly taught and applied to learning in schools, and unless somehow math is required in everyday person society, not many people are mathminded or are taught to be mathminded. Those shitty questions in your homework will not help or inspire you.

Even then, becoming math mined I've heard is not exactly the sanest thing. I remember from a relative hearing about how a mathematician who was very good at math was a spastic barely contained eccentric who was calculating shit off the top of his head at everything he saw because he did that for the last decades of his life and eventually grew to see the entire world mathematically. The other professional mathematician who is highly regarded in the world at the moment is a speed addict.


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## Shadfan666xxx000 (Jun 14, 2020)

Math as a subject tends to leave people behind because every single concept builds from the previous one while English class just goes to a new story or something else related but not necessarily reliant to the past concept. 
This means while you can just as easily bounce back in English or History class, math class can just plain ditch you if you fall back on a couple of subjects so you have to either work exceptionally hard to win back your place or you will end up having to accept mediocrity in the field.


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## ArnoldPalmer (Jun 14, 2020)

Usually because the people who teach math don't fucking know how to do it, and "teach" it in a way that doesn't make any fucking sense. It's probably worse now with common core. Algebra was a grade 9 study for me and I didn't really understand it until after I graduated. Geometry? No problem. Delta math? No problem. Vector Calculus? No problem. All that shit clicked with me, and when it did, algebra eventually did, too. Unfortunately, my grades do not reflect this.

If I didn't learn to code, I would still hate math, because programming is what forced me to learn delta math, vector calc, and geometry. That is another problem with teaching math in a classroom. You throw numbers and letters and symbols at children all day, and other than handling money, not fucking ONCE do you ever show a real-world example of what's being taught.

My solution? Ditch common core and put at least 50 3D Printers in every geometry classroom, with a toolkit, machinist's protractor, digital calipers, and set squares for each. Have the kids build them from a kit in groups of two or three, over the course of two weeks to a month, and grade them on how mechanically accurate the printer is, and the quality of the resulting prints. The kids get a hands-on example of what math can accomplish, and they get a printed object as a sort of token that they got somewhere with that knowledge. Once the course is over, disassemble the printers and do it for the next group of kids.

This alone teaches you geometry, and inside that, teaches you cartesian/delta kinematic plotting, light mechanics, working in a group, a little bit of data entry, and a lot of basic secondary math.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 14, 2020)

LOL I'm good at math, writing, and music...


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## Pepsi-Cola (Jun 14, 2020)

English lends itself to things that people naturally find fun or interesting. Reading, writing, philosophy, history, etc. 

There are basically no traditional hobbies that involve math. Unless you find writing income statements and recording accounting journals fun I guess.


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## FuckedUp (Jun 14, 2020)

DavieJones714 said:


> If you don't understand something or miss math lessons, it can be hard for some to fully catch up and seems to lead to a bad math experience. English is often interpretation and expression so less to miss, besides grammar rules.





Shadfan666xxx000 said:


> Math as a subject tends to leave people behind because every single concept builds from the previous one while English class just goes to a new story or something else related but not necessarily reliant to the past concept.
> This means while you can just as easily bounce back in English or History class, math class can just plain ditch you if you fall back on a couple of subjects so you have to either work exceptionally hard to win back your place or you will end up having to accept mediocrity in the field.


Yeah, makes sense. Just can't relate because I've always been good enough at math that I just had to read a textbook at most. Never actually paid attention in any math class because I either didn't have to or could learn the entire week or two from the textbook (latter mostly in college).

EDIT: Yes, I've previously bragged about coming up with the Fibonacci sequence by myself as a kid.


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## Tumbo (Jun 14, 2020)

Math was always hard for me and at a certain point pretty much became impossible not to mention each lesson builds off each other so as others have said if you miss one it can be hard to catch up.


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## Unassuming Local Guy (Jun 14, 2020)

English is something I use nearly every moment in every day. Without it, my life couldn't exist. Any math more complex than basic algebra has zero bearing on anything I do save for once a year at most. The same holds true for probably 95% of people in the English speaking world.

It's like asking why people tend to be more invested in the alphabet than hieroglyphics. If it's a thousand times more useful to almost everyone, it tends to get more attention.


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## Ex Cummunicated Sasser HD (Jun 14, 2020)

For me, I couldn’t care less about maths, and never have, just because unless it’s university level maths, I have always been able to calculate large equations in my head quicker than most teachers could with a scientific calculator, and having to prove my working out as well as the correct answer was just a waste of time in my eyes. English, especially lit, you can come to whatever conclusion you want as long as you thoroughly explain why... I was lucky I finished school before the internet though, and everything was a lot more open ended... One example, I was supposed to study Macbeth for my A levels, but had moved schools, and I had studied that book the year before while all the rest of my class had not, so my english teacher said I could pick my own book if it was real literature, so I picked last exit to brooklyn and spent 6 months breaking it down and cross referencing it to traditional english literature...


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## ⋖ cørdion ⋗ (Jun 14, 2020)

NOT Sword Fighter Super said:


> Because math always has a correct answer, but English has a lot more leeway.
> 
> I mean you can't write an essay on how oppressed you are as a trans woman in math.


I had so many classmates sleep through the classes only to score top in anything non-STEM. In one way it's proof of  how you need to be able to formulate yourself and your thoughts, the other it just proves that you're bad at working towards a goal as per math, and hope to coast through life on your genetic, charismatic make-up.


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## haurchefant (Jun 14, 2020)

Math has to build on solid foundations and not only are these foundations not taught well, but teachers are unable to spend more time with students who are struggling which means sooner or later everyone gets left behind when they're outpaced by the material.


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## bothiggedyhog (Jun 15, 2020)

isn't it a left/right brain thing? some people (cough women) are better with writing because it has general rules but is mostly about personal expression, and editing your work is easy with sites that spell/grammar check. you use english everyday, its in your head 24/7 so its easy to grasp for most people.

I've just never had a good hold on numbers, I didn't develop an interest because its a flat subject with very strict rules, and because I never had an initial interest I didn't bother learning much about math past high school required classes (which I cheated on successfully)


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## Merried Senior Comic (Jun 15, 2020)

I hate math because I am a brainlet. I also hate English because, again, I am a brainlet.


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## Elaine Benes (Jun 17, 2020)

Slap47 said:


> The middle class is dying because people are skipping out on the trades. You do not need a mastery of algebra to be a tradesmen.



Eh, I'd say it depends on the trade. My dad is in the tool and die industry and he regularly uses algebra and trig in his work.


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## the fall of man (Jun 18, 2020)

(dud3 1 fuck3n h8 3n8715=


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## Dread First (Jun 19, 2020)

For me specifically, I suck at math because I never bothered putting in more effort than the bare minimum when I was in school. I never had to take more than one state exam in high school for math and I already passed the algebra one in 9th grade. In my senior year of high school, math and science were completely optional so I just skipped precal and physics entirely. That kinda fucked me over when I went to college, but that's a different story.

I also had amazing teachers for history, so I often found myself paying even more attention in Global, US History, Government, and Economics. My English teachers were also really creative with some of their units and so we never really found ourselves digging /that/ deep into state-mandated curriculum outside of what was required for the state exams.


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## betterbullocks (Jun 23, 2020)

oldTireWater said:


> That's why I prefer math. English requires creativity, and judgement. Math is just grinding.


This entirely ceases to be the case past high school math. Sure, you might have to practice proofs, but only in the same way that you practice essay writing. Mechanical math an engineer makes. I've heard it said that the judge of a potential mathematician is how much they like geometry, not the ability to repeatedly and accurately solve a bunch of the same kinds of problems.


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## betterbullocks (Jun 23, 2020)

This might be totally off base, but in my opinion it comes down to two things: how it's taught, and rigor. Rigor is obvious, math as a higher barrier to entry in terms of the correctness and completeness of a response, whereas the rigor required for english kicks in much later on. 

Now for how it's taught. Math comes easily to me, but there are times when I will be genuinely confused and struggle. In 99% of these instances, it's because the math is being taught with a lack of motivation. Teachers and professors who assume you understand "where they're going," and churn out line after line until reaching the end will create hatred for math. The brighter kids will see this motivation without being told, and will come to love math. After a string of shitty professors or teachers, students often lose confidence in their mathematic abilities altogether, and their failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. But I firmly believe that anyone can be proficient with math to the point of not hating it, if a thoughtful tutor guides them through enough of the motivation. Not just motivation between steps of a problem, but motivation behind models. Why DO we use polar coordinates? Why DOES the unit circle have points where it does? Instead of memorizing the pythagorean theorem, learn that it's just a special case of the law of cosines. Instead of memorizing the quadractic equation, derive it. Motivationless memorization is responsible for almost all math hatred.


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## Schinna (Jul 10, 2020)

I could bullshit my way through an English essay without too much trouble after just skimming through the book. This isn't really possible in math class. The English teacher cares more about you getting your essay to X page lengths rather the actual content of your writing. This is not the case with math, where there is an objectively correct answer and an objectively wrong answer. It is much harder to bullshit that.

There is also the problem of everyday usage of math. When I asked my teachers what a particular equation was useful for I never got a straight answer, and often no answer at all. The future use of English class is obvious. Being able to read and write without sounding like a retard is the most basic requirement in today's world. History was also obvious. Knowing about the past can inform you about the future. Most classes are like this. Most people, however, don't need to have much more than basic math memorized for everyday usage unless it is important to their profession. If they do need it but don't have it memorized, you have a computer in your pocket that can do equations without error literally billions of times faster than you can. It becomes insulting to a point, because both my teachers and my peers seemed to realize that this was ultimately useless past being a requirement in the curriculum. During my tutelage I spent thousands of hours in school doing math, and many more out of school. If you cannot provide me with even the most basic answer of what I am going to use something for yet still steal thousands of hours of my childhood to learn it I am going to hate it. It is even more insulting when you realize 95% of people will not use 95% of what they were taught.

Math class was also one of the leading causes of anxiety and feelings of inadequacy I saw. I could forget about English class if I wanted to and then spring right back in whenever I wanted. This is not the case with math. I had a surgery that kept me out of school for over a month at one time, and when I went back to English class I was up to speed on almost everything within a few days. I was totally lost in math class, and that has a snowball effect of lagging behind and being unable to catch up. After a while many people will just give up because they feel that they are stupid or unworthy unless they make special arrangements to catch up.

I personally didn't dislike math class as much as my fellow students, and I certainly don't dislike math itself (I actually find it rather cathartic) but to waste so much time on things most people won't utilize is one of the worst things you could have in an education system.


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## Pissmaster (Jul 10, 2020)

There was a college algebra course I took where the teacher just got visually exasperated and loudly sighed any time someone asked a question.  He also didn't grade on a curve, and something like 80% of the entire class (including me) failed his course. 

Later on, when I retook that same class at a different college, I had a much better teacher and cleared it with an A, because the teacher actually cared, and used practical examples to explain the material.

Just have math taught by people who aren't total fucking autists and we'd be alright.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Jul 10, 2020)

I'm way better at science, writing & grammar. Math is just terrible. It has very few practical applications unless you're an engineer ot accountant.


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## Slimy Time (Jul 10, 2020)

Schinna said:


> Math class was also one of the leading causes of anxiety and feelings of inadequacy I saw. I could forget about English class if I wanted to and then spring right back in whenever I wanted. This is not the case with math. I had a surgery that kept me out of school for over a month at one time, and when I went back to English class I was up to speed on almost everything within a few days. I was totally lost in math class, and that has a snowball effect of lagging behind and being unable to catch up. After a while many people will just give up because they feel that they are stupid or unworthy unless they make special arrangements to catch up.
> 
> I personally didn't dislike math class as much as my fellow students, and I certainly don't dislike math itself (I actually find it rather cathartic) but to waste so much time on things most people won't utilize is one of the worst things you could have in an education system.


This is the reason people hate maths. Maths is like building a pyramid, you have your foundation that needs to be solid, then another layer, then another, and another and so on. Everything builds on the work done in the previous year. Miss school/don't keep up and you are screwed. Combine with weak teaching of the basics, and its no wonder people hate it, especially when they are forced to do it.


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## Antipathy (Jul 10, 2020)

I always hated English more, even though I got equal or better grades in it than math. With math, there was at least a right and wrong answer, and it was, if not easy, at least possible to get the empirically correct choice every single time. Of course, I didn't have amazing teachers most of the time and don't really remember much of anything beyond basic algebra, but it's still doable. I had a shitty time with math in my younger years because I wasn't ever using it for anything at all, but once I took my first chemistry course and started to see math applied, it clicked and I started working harder on it.

With English, it was about bullshitting the teacher correctly to get your A. So I would spend most of my class observing the instructor and trying to determine what they liked and didn't like, then I would tailor my essays and shit to that, unless it was later in my academic career, where I would just get bored and try to make the most unnerving and uncomfortable essays I possibly could while still getting high grades. Once I started doing that, English became fun. 

The point is that both, in my opinion, are taught wrong. English should be about clearly expressing yourself and for inspiring thought in others. Math should be a practical skill applied to the sciences for the purpose of determining something important. Both can be used in some capacity by anyone in any field, but they are taught in such a manner as to make them both feel useless.


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## The best and greatest (Jul 10, 2020)

Dr W said:


> I always hated English more, even though I got equal or better grades in it than math. With math, there was at least a right and wrong answer, and it was, if not easy, at least possible to get the empirically correct choice every single time. Of course, I didn't have amazing teachers most of the time and don't really remember much of anything beyond basic algebra, but it's still doable. I had a shitty time with math in my younger years because I wasn't ever using it for anything at all, but once I took my first chemistry course and started to see math applied, it clicked and I started working harder on it.
> 
> With English, it was about bullshitting the teacher correctly to get your A. So I would spend most of my class observing the instructor and trying to determine what they liked and didn't like, then I would tailor my essays and shit to that, unless it was later in my academic career, where I would just get bored and try to make the most unnerving and uncomfortable essays I possibly could while still getting high grades. Once I started doing that, English became fun.
> 
> The point is that both, in my opinion, are taught wrong. English should be about clearly expressing yourself and for inspiring thought in others. Math should be a practical skill applied to the sciences for the purpose of determining something important. Both can be used in some capacity by anyone in any field, but they are taught in such a manner as to make them both feel useless.


Tbh some of this is good stuff to learn.

Being able to identify  your audience and craft  your work to be best understood/received by them is one of the requirements for being a successful writer of anything.


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## mindlessobserver (Jul 10, 2020)

I think its the way our brains are wired. Most humans are wired for abstract thinking, not the kind of linear thinking that math tends to demand. Its no accident people who are good at math are often very eccentric and socially awkward. The type of mind wired to do complex equations is fundamentally abnormal. Not in a bad way mind you, but in a general "humans as social creatures" sort of way. English is a subject more suited for baseline human cognition. As such its more popular.

of course, the very best Mathematicians are freaks capable of both linear and abstract thinking. They also tend to be very crazy in some or many ways.


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## PsychoNerd054 (Jul 10, 2020)

I’m going with lack of interest and lack of confidence.

I think it’s because there’s this whole idea some people have that you inherently have to be some kind of genius or that you have to have the “right brain” (At birth that is) to understand math. Granted, the very best in the field are freakishly intelligent. But as a skill, absolutely anybody can be adept at it. It just takes lots and lots of practice to do it right.

Even then, there are plenty of websites and resources that can help you build your understanding of various topics in Math.

Some of my favorite would be Wolfram Alpha, Stack Exchange, and Brilliant.


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## Slap47 (Jul 10, 2020)

mindlessobserver said:


> I think its the way our brains are wired. Most humans are wired for abstract thinking, not the kind of linear thinking that math tends to demand. Its no accident people who are good at math are often very eccentric and socially awkward. The type of mind wired to do complex equations is fundamentally abnormal. Not in a bad way mind you, but in a general "humans as social creatures" sort of way. English is a subject more suited for baseline human cognition. As such its more popular.
> 
> of course, the very best Mathematicians are freaks capable of both linear and abstract thinking. They also tend to be very crazy in some or many ways.



It's not a coincidence that most western Jihadis have math/engineering degrees. They're smart but learn the Quran on their own instead of in a traditional moderate mosque that filters everything through culture.


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## Antipathy (Jul 10, 2020)

The best and greatest said:


> Tbh some of this is good stuff to learn.
> 
> Being able to identify  your audience and craft  your work to be best understood/received by them is one of the requirements for being a successful writer of anything.


That was never taught to me directly, it just pissed me off that at random I would at first get good or bad grades, and then, only when I thought about cheating the system in the most absurd way possible, did I learn the valuable life lesson that pleasing authority figures gets you places. I'm sure there are people who never figured that shit out.


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## The best and greatest (Jul 10, 2020)

Dr W said:


> That was never taught to me directly, it just pissed me off that at random I would at first get good or bad grades, and then, only when I thought about cheating the system in the most absurd way possible, did I learn the valuable life lesson that pleasing authority figures gets you places. I'm sure there are people who never figured that shit out.


It's not about  "Pleasing  authority  figures" its  about being able to consider who  you're writing for, in any given situation. If you want your message to  be heard you have to deliver it  in a way where people will A:  want to listen and B: comprehend your meaning.

All writers are whores my friend, whats even the point if people just shrug their shoulders and go "TLR!?"


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## Antipathy (Jul 10, 2020)

The best and greatest said:


> It's not about  "Pleasing  authority  figures" its  about being able to consider who  you're writing for, in any given situation. If you want your message to  be heard you have to deliver it  in a way where people will A:  want to listen and B: comprehend your meaning.
> 
> All writers are whores my friend, whats even the point if people just shrug their shoulders and go "TLR!?"


I suck at reading audiences. Before I would say things that were way too controversial, now I feel like I'm playing it too safe in most places.


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## General Tug Boat (Aug 11, 2020)

Mathematics such a diverse and interesting subject,  I guess why I ended up hating it as a kid was because of the element of having more interest in being a kid opposed to memorizing theorems,  along with not actually having any useful manner in which to apply said theorems.   As an adult I ended up falling in love with it,  mainly because of mathematics application in physics,  but as well in technology.   If the schools I attended had more of an focus towards the technology based applications,  I probably would of ended up generally more interested,  and hence ended up being a better student.   I ended up actually getting my college textbook and I ended up going through the entire book on my own a few years ago while I was in between programs out of high school.    This 900+ page textbook,  I essentially taught myself up to differential equations from the basics.   I just found that most teachers never emphasized enough on the concepts that are the most important and assumed you learned said instruction a previous year.    I actually wanted to enroll in the Mathematics program at my local university,  but because of my general slacker attitude;   Along with,  universities in Canada being generally cringe,  I decided to just stick with the local community college.    

English was always a subject that bothered me,   just because generally the compulsory reading material is just uninteresting.   Along with the fact that I write how I speak,   hence a lot of in-formalities in my type set.     In mathematics there is no such thing as winging it,  you are either right,  or you are wrong,  and also there are actually ways of verifying the information.     Also,  the approach in solving a problem in mathematics is very diverse.   I love seeing the way other people may solve a certain integral,  or how a certain proof is solved,  it just helps put more tools in the box in solving those type of problems.    Another funny thing is how mathematical aptitude is applicable in all forms of life,  opposed to aptitude in literature.    Math literally changes the way your mind solves problems,  because generally it challenges your viewpoint on things.   Opposed to literature,  that generally does not hold the same level of challenge.


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## Sothis (Aug 11, 2020)

I've always hated both, since I don't do maths any more I've come to appreciate it a bit more.

With English, I've always had teachers that are bad at teaching, and a few of them graded me on whether they like me or agree with my viewpoints rather than on the quality of my work which had pretty much put me off English.


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## AnOminous (Aug 11, 2020)

FuckedUp said:


> You can write what you THINK is correct, only to get a failing grade because you didn't give enough examples or some shit (which happened with at least half of my essays).



So just give enough examples.  It doesn't matter if you make them up.


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## FuckedUp (Aug 11, 2020)

AnOminous said:


> So just give enough examples.  It doesn't matter if you make them up.


Make them up? I constantly got points off for not perfectly representing the real examples I gave.


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## AnOminous (Aug 11, 2020)

FuckedUp said:


> Make them up? I constantly got points off for not perfectly representing the real examples I gave.



"Sincerity is the key to success.  Once you can fake that, you've got it made."


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## ⋖ cørdion ⋗ (Aug 11, 2020)

CivilianOfTheFandomWars said:


> Because English is typically easier if you know how to bullshit. Most questions that aren’t about rules or mechanics can answer themselves. That, and essays are easy enough to write if you have enough to work with.


This shit is so obvious during exams. Be straight up wrong, and you'll get a "Hmm, what about-". In math, it'd be "no". I think it's honestly just the nature of humanities and natural sciences. But at the same time, learning how to multiply gives a kid confidence and maybe even propel them into further math stuff. It's pretty much a metaphor for life. Fake, cuddly comfort or ups and downs with meaningful development.


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## The Bovinian Derivative (Aug 11, 2020)

I think it's the way math is taught. There are teachers who force a certain way of solving problems and a lot of the time you have to keep information in your head that would better suited to be in a cheat sheet. We had to memorize all the Integration equivalencies for Numerical Analysis I but were given cheat sheets for II, so we promptly forgot everything and used the cheat sheets instead. 

Also a lot of it, for a student, feels useless at the time so it builds resentment. When you learn English you're learning a language that most of people in the western world can speak, but you will not use combinatorics or differential equations that much. I hated vector math but now I am using it for my homebrew projects, but I never had to touch vector spaces or anything heavier.


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## Atatata (Aug 14, 2020)

English is easier to bullshit, after the basics it doesn't really matter much about how you got anywhere, as long as whatever ends up on the page seems fairly reasonable. Just remember context clues, make sure it adheres to the basic structure of a report and you'll be fine. Honestly, I've written book reports using only the back cover summary. Most teachers don't give a fuck as long as you remember how to spell correctly and your comma usage isn't too obnoxious, many bin the reports without reading them anyway.

Now math, it doesn't matter if you get it right if the method you use is wrong, and every damn teacher has a different method they think is the standard. At the end it just makes it all the more convoluted, especially if you're a student that was barely getting settled in with the previous method. Personally I lost the plot a bit when they had us labeling properties instead of actual math.

Edit: video related


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## DDBCAE CBAADCBE (Aug 14, 2020)

For me English was always easier because I could mostly sleep through class and still generally absorb everything that was said or just use context clues and common sense to fake my way through to the right answers. Meanwhile math on the other hand requires you to actually pay attention. It's a strict and joyless sort of work that demands your focus and will punish you fiercely for even a small slip up.


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## A Rastafarian Skeleton (Aug 14, 2020)

Hated science and math. Loved history and literature.


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## FuckedUp (Aug 16, 2020)

DDBCAE CBAADCBE said:


> For me English was always easier because I could mostly sleep through class and still generally absorb everything that was said or just use context clues and common sense to fake my way through to the right answers. Meanwhile math on the other hand requires you to actually pay attention. It's a strict and joyless sort of work that demands your focus and will punish you fiercely for even a small slip up.


You're the polar opposite of me, lol.


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## ToroidalBoat (Aug 16, 2020)

Math can require excessive memorization, the classes always assign too much homework every class day, and math requires fairly mechanistic thinking biology isn't naturally best at.

Meanwhile, English is closer to how organic beings think.


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## augment (Aug 16, 2020)

Judging by how everyone "writes" on the internet or express themselves, *everyone* hates English.


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## eeeeeeeeeeeee diot (Aug 16, 2020)

I couldn't git gud at Maths. Also classes for Maths and Science were often boring and seemed to focus more on rote memorization and grinding worksheet after worksheet rather than cultivating logical thought until my final year of high school.

I liked English and other adjacent subjects a lot because I overthink. Subtext, inference and contextual clues are practically human's bread and butter, especially in daily life if you don't want to seem like a sperg or a weirdo. Also I liked being creative. Maths in my school didn't really let you be creative because they advocated for one true and honest method.

Weirdly enough, I was the type of person to like English and Science, despite how Science and Math are so closely linked.


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## FuckedUp (Aug 16, 2020)

ToroidalBoat said:


> Math can require excessive memorization, the classes always assign too much homework every class day, and math requires fairly mechanistic thinking biology isn't naturally best at.
> 
> Meanwhile, English is closer to how organic beings think.


Yeah, I've essentially already posted this in this thread 50 times, but for me everything up to and including the majority of algebra ii was just common sense. Calculus was when I really had to start learning formulas and methods.


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## BOONES (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm the odd autist out, i love reading yet hate books (i like to read using electronics due to features allowing my mild dyslexia to not affect me) and i hate math, i loved everything else in school but fuck math.


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## Dolphin Lundgren (Aug 16, 2020)

I've been bad at math my whole life, and have an issue with numbers more than words. I prefer English more because I've always liked reading and figuring out sentences, and maybe me learning how to read at a young age made it easier.


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## DDBCAE CBAADCBE (Aug 16, 2020)

FuckedUp said:


> You're the polar opposite of me, lol.


Yeah, I never found school very stimulating and ended up skipping most of my classes about as soon as I realized that the system had no real intention of teaching us anything new. I still remember my algebra teacher trying to explain an equation and he said something at the beginning like "Okay, for this problem the letter B will equal 6 and we need to solve for Y". I looked at him and I said "Alright, but why does B equal 6 in particular?" He couldn't give me an answer for that and it was at that point that I realized that like everyone else there he had no interest in teaching us to learn but rather teaching us to listen. I quickly said I had to go to the library and then told the librarian I was going back to class. No one suspected that I had just walked home.


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## ImHapp (Aug 16, 2020)

Math is much like learning a whole new language you have to keep practicing to understand it, that's why Math isn't as preferred as opposed to English. To me English is something that most are familiar with and you get to learn intriguing of pieces literature, proper grammar, poetry, biographies, etc. Math is a bit more black and white in comparison. Though I do envy those who'd find abstract math interesting.


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## ToroidalBoat (Aug 16, 2020)

FuckedUp said:


> Calculus was when I really had to start learning formulas and methods.


I always struggled in math. Especially fractions and algebra.

I think I liked the sciences that aren't math heavy better than English or math, although one English teacher managed to make Romeo and Juliet seem interesting - and no essays I can recall.


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## Titos (Aug 16, 2020)

I hated math in school because they never explained *why* something worked the way it did or what it was even used for, just how you did it. That kind of thinking doesn't work for me. Hated english too because all the teachers I had for it were massive cunts except for one. Always enjoyed History, Economics, and Government courses in school much more. Those and PE, so much as to take it for 3 periods in a row one year, and that was with block scheduling so the entire day was PE 2 days out of the week.


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## Aidan (Aug 17, 2020)

Math is concrete for everyone who isn't delving deep into it and it's tedious.
English for most people is skim a book/piece once and then write about it, being able to bullshit a good chunk of it. Especially with the internet nowadays.

People also don't see any utility from math so just don't want to do it, then by the time they do see its utility can't be bothered to play catch up.


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## Jonah Hill poster (Aug 17, 2020)

Math is regarded as the universal language by people who love numbers and equations. English is spoken nearly everywhere since more people from different countries come to U.S. to want to speak it. If anything, I’ve learned more from *READING *math books and analyzing them after graduating from school than actually taking courses in it.

It requires a lot of rational thinking and like most others have said, it’s all about figuring out the right answer to the problem at hand, unlike English where there are different amount of ways to speak and write.


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## totse (Aug 20, 2020)

As reflected in most of the posts in this thread, for years and years (all of compulsory education and well into college), math is mechanical, concrete, linear, arbitrary and without motivation or sometimes even obvious practical application, tedious... I haven't been to this point or anywhere near it, but I have a vague understanding that deep into the study of math lies a trove of fascinating mystery-solving and the use of this arcane and elegant language to understand and express it. It can be a wonderful and enriching thing, so I hope. Not just "how are we going to use this later" but the really good shit, kind of like the reason a person might be deeply motivated to study philosophy or psychology for their own enrichment and elucidation about the world and their existence. The way math is taught is castrated and demotivating. It needs a fundamentally different approach in which people are actually shown why they should give a shit, and again, I don't just mean like "it'll be useful if you want to be an engineer or something".


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## Account (Aug 20, 2020)

Almost all mathematics in school is learning how to be a human computer for tasks that are almost entirely useless outside of schooling (like applying the rational root theorem to a polynomial, which nobody except autistic people like). Most mathematicians, when asked about public mathematics education, will moan about how narrow and shit it is (see A Mathematician's Lament). Topics in mathematics/mathematics adjacent fields like game theory, probability, and statistics would be infinitely more helpful to almost everybody, but sadly we don't teach those things, and perhaps some of the people who dislike the drudgery of "math" could find themselves better at those subjects. When most people say "math" they really mean equation solving, finding-the-zero, and number juggling, which is a pitifully small subset of mathematics.

English education in the U.S. is terrible also, but unlike mathematics there isn't a way to calculate a right or wrong answer to most questions you can pose in English, so people probably enjoyed that flexibility when it doesn't exist in Algebra. English is a lot more flexible, so the only time you have dumb tests like testing you on what happened to so-and-so in Scene such-and-such in this play is when you have a bad teacher, while in mathematics everyone is forced in teaching in the one bad way.


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## Aidan (Aug 20, 2020)

Account said:


> Almost all mathematics in school is learning how to be a human computer for tasks that are almost entirely useless outside of schooling (like applying the rational root theorem to a polynomial, which nobody except autistic people like). Most mathematicians, when asked about public mathematics education, will moan about how narrow and shit it is (see A Mathematician's Lament). Topics in mathematics/mathematics adjacent fields like game theory, probability, and statistics would be infinitely more helpful to almost everybody, but sadly we don't teach those things, and perhaps some of the people who dislike the drudgery of "math" could find themselves better at those subjects. When most people say "math" they really mean equation solving, finding-the-zero, and number juggling, which is a pitifully small subset of mathematics.
> 
> English education in the U.S. is terrible also, but unlike mathematics there isn't a way to calculate a right or wrong answer to most questions you can pose in English, so people probably enjoyed that flexibility when it doesn't exist in Algebra. English is a lot more flexible, so the only time you have dumb tests like testing you on what happened to so-and-so in Scene such-and-such in this play is when you have a bad teacher, while in mathematics everyone is forced in teaching in the one bad way.


I'm no mathematician but the math up through high school and ultimately into college for most is so basic. Most people can barely do that so I don't see how they're going to fare beyond that into the more "fun" math.
I think showing people what you can do with math or what has been done with math before is a good way to build intrigue but you still have to build people up to that level.

Like showing students why calculus is important before they even get to that level by showing how you can pretty accurately measure the distance of a star light years away with basic instruments or something like that would be more fun than saying "hey you can find out how fast a ladder is falling!" which most students won't care about so won't get excited for.
I haven't been in high school for awhile but I remember most people looked at math through a lens of "When will *I* ever use this?" and English was simply an easier course so they didn't worry about it. But to get to the "fun" math you need to be able to solve for X in all sorts of ways.


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## Jewelsmakerguy (Aug 20, 2020)

I won't harp on it any more than what's been already said, but people aren't going to use anything but the most basic of math in their everyday lives. And that's part of the reason I don't like it too, I mean I'm not going to use algebra to know how much my groceries cost.


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## LazarusOwenhart (Aug 20, 2020)

I'm Discalculic. It's like Dyslexia, but for math. My math teachers in high school thought I just couldn't be fucked until suddenly I was presented with algebra and was doing university level equations without breaking a sweat. They treated me like an undiscovered genius for like, a week and then decided that if I could do algebra at levels even they struggled with, I was just SUPER lazy with numbers. I hate math and love English because math teachers are generally bitter, coffee smelling old cunts whilst English teachers are usually nice older ladies who like Shakespeare and Dickens.


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## Aidan (Aug 20, 2020)

Jewelsmakerguy said:


> I won't harp on it any more than what's been already said, but people aren't going to use anything but the most basic of math in their everyday lives. And that's part of the reason I don't like it too, I mean I'm not going to use algebra to know how much my groceries cost.


Algebra is probably the most useful day-to-day math for most people. It's what you do in any spreadsheet. Most of my old friends can't even use spreadsheet software outside of using it as a text file where they manually move data around.


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