# Best Middle Eastern Culture



## NeverHappened (Jul 13, 2016)

Here is everything I know about the Middle East.

ISIS - Evil incarnate. Almost as bad as Christian bakers.

Libya - Now part of the chaos that is Africa.

Syria - Oppressive secular state. Might whiplash back into a secular government after dealing with so much ISIS. Syria will be hell regardless of what happens.

Afghanistan - It mostly exists as a geographic obstacle.

Pakistan - Bad government

Saudi Arabia - Just No

Iran -  President Eisenhower was tricked by Britain into wrecking the best hope for the region. Now, the West is stuck with Saudi Arab. There's a small chance of regaining potential and becoming a properly modern Persia.

Israel - High standard of living, but not even Europe wants to learn from them. May not survive the 21st Century, but I don't think it's end will be from ICBMs so much as entropy.

Palestine - not much potential. Other countries only like them as far as they hate Israel.

Qatar - Modern and progressive upper class. Ignore that the majority of the country's population are third-world laborers with no rights.

Bahrain- Slowly becoming better. Runt UK of the Middle East. Expect Bahxit in 500 years.

Kurdistan - Not an actual nation and they have some issues to sort out. Kurds kill ISIS a lot and their culture is not beholden to the ideals preached by extremists. Foreign support is needed.

Turkey - The wife's son of Europe. Won't allow Kurdistan to exist. Looks bad, but could change if Europe gets it's act together.

These are the players in the cultural development of the Middle East as I see it.  Islam is important, but "True Islam" isn't. This is not the place to squabble over Quran verses. Culture and identity are huge factors in the shape of the Middle East.

This is going from memory and experience. I am a dumb and non-liberal American, but I thricely repeat myself.


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## Mapache (Jul 13, 2016)

Lebanon, simply because their food is great and their women great as well


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 13, 2016)

Kuwait.
The government is against ISIS, there's a higher degree of religious freedom even if it's not to the degree of the West, extremism is less prevalent, and it's one of the few nations that have never declared war on another in its entire history.
Kuwait might just be the best country in the Middle East.


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## Joan Nyan (Jul 13, 2016)

Israel, because it's not run by Muslims.


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## NeverHappened (Jul 13, 2016)

Ntwadumela said:


> Kuwait.
> The government is against ISIS, there's a higher degree of religious freedom even if it's not to the degree of the West, extremism is less prevalent, and it's one of the few nations that have never declared war on another in its entire history.
> Kuwait might just be the best country in the Middle East.



It's not very tempting to go to war when surround by giants. Besides, you have to have your butts saved.

Kuwait can only at best have the 4th best women in the region. This is because I claim Kurdish women and Israeli Women for 2nd and 3rd place, respectively.


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 13, 2016)

NeverHappened said:


> It's not very tempting to go to war when surround by giants. Besides, you have to have your butts saved.
> 
> Kuwait can only at best have the 4th best women in the region. This is because I claim Kurdish women and Israeli Women for 2nd and 3rd place, respectively.


That is certainly true. But Kuwait did well in the Kuwait-Najd war and we did put an effort in the beginning of the Gulf War.
Some of the women here put far too much makeup, but I have seen amazing women here. Kurdish and Israeli women are definitely amazing. Lebanese women are some of the hottest in the region honestly.


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## Tranhuviya (Jul 13, 2016)

Outremer.


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 13, 2016)

The only answer is clearly Israel and you're an idiot or a liar if you say otherwise


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## Sgt_maul (Jul 13, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> The only answer is clearly Israel and you're an idiot or a liar if you say otherwise


Fully agreed.


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## NeverHappened (Jul 13, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> The only answer is clearly Israel and you're an idiot or a liar if you say otherwise


Haven't you figured it out? Israel is only pretending to be Middle East.


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## Vitriol (Jul 13, 2016)

Any meaningful discussion of the middle east should include Egypt as well. technically north africa, it casts a long shadow and together with Arabia, Turkey and Persia makes up the historical political core of the region.


But yes Israel is far and away the most developed and small 'l' liberal country in the region whatever ones opinions are of its foreign policy


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 13, 2016)

Sgt_Maul said:


> Fully agreed.



Israel is 1/6th of 1% of the whole Middle-East. 2% of the Middle-Eastern population. In light of that:

- Highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world
- More scientific papers produced than any other nation in the world
- Highest number of scientists and technicians per capita in the world 
- Highest number of PhDs per capita in the world 
- Highest number of engineers per capita in the world 
- Highest number of physicians per capita in the world 
- Highest number of workforce in tech per capita in the world 
- Largest immigrant-absorbing nation per capita in the world 
- More start-up companies per capita in the world 
- Largest wholesale diamond center in the world
- More NASDAQ companies outside of US and Canada
- Second highest concentration of high-tech companies in the world after Silicon Valley
- Most of the shit used in your computers was developed there, same with cellphones
- Most museums per capita in the world 
- Most orchestras per capita in the world 
- Most books published in the world per capita in the world 
- Most books read per capita in the world 
- Most independent free Arabic press in the Middle-east
- Only country in the Middle-East where the Christian population has grown in the last 50 years
- Only country in the Middle-East where people of all religions are free to vote
- Only country in the Middle-East where women have full political rights 



Even the rest of the Middle-East as a whole doesn't compare.


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## AnOminous (Jul 13, 2016)

Israel is part of Western civilization that just happens to be located in the Middle East.


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 13, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Israel is 1/6th of 1% of the whole Middle-East. 2% of the Middle-Eastern population. In light of that:
> 
> - Highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world
> - More scientific papers produced than any other nation in the world
> ...


Shame how most Middle Eastern countries/governments (yes this includes the Kuwaiti government as much as I dislike that fact) condemn Israel and praise Palestine honestly.


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## ERROR_ENTRY (Jul 13, 2016)

I've been to Israel (a good 10 years ago). Lovely country, people were very friendly. A lot of shit started (protests, bombings etc.) the day after I arrived home so lady luck was on my side.

One of my mates is from Iran. The thing about Iran is that despite the negativity around it, the people there are the nicest you'll ever meet.


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 13, 2016)

Ntwadumela said:


> Shame how most Middle Eastern countries/governments (yes this includes the Kuwaiti government as much as I dislike that fact) condemn Israel and praise Palestine honestly.



Couldn't agree more. Look at this guy






Only spoke the truth, got sent to prison for it.


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 13, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Couldn't agree more. Look at this guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brave guy he is.
I have absolutely no idea why Kuwait would support Palestine even though they supported Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party during the Gulf War other than the fact that they're fellow Arabs. I always found it completely fucking stupid growing up and seeing maps in the textbooks cover Israel's name with Whiteout and replaced it with Palestine. I personally view the situation with realism and form my opinions based on what I see from multiple news outlets to negate bias.
Have I also mentioned that most Palestinians I've met were douchebags?


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## NeverHappened (Jul 13, 2016)

I think Israel is in the wrong place. Great people, but bad taste in real estate. Any place in the western hemisphere would have been better.


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 13, 2016)

NeverHappened said:


> I think Israel is in the wrong place. Great people, but bad taste in real estate. Any place in the western hemisphere would have been better.


The entire conflict between Israel and Palestine is fucking stupid IMO. It's like a Middle School drama between fellow students.


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## WW 635 (Jul 13, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Israel is 1/6th of 1% of the whole Middle-East. 2% of the Middle-Eastern population. In light of that:
> 
> - Highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world
> - More scientific papers produced than any other nation in the world
> ...


Guilt-laying Jewish-mother fueled progression


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## autisticdragonkin (Jul 13, 2016)

Israel because it has one of the highest fertility rates (israelis are more fertile than immigrants) and it also has high human development and a highly developed information economy showing what the west could be if they cared about the future


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## Joan Nyan (Jul 13, 2016)

Israel in the Middle East is a mensch among schmucks.


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## CWCchange (Jul 13, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> - Only country in the Middle-East where the Christian population has grown in the last 50 years


Yet, so few people in the West address the fact they're treated as second class citizens by both Israel and Palestine. If you talk about the former, you're a Nazi. If you talk about the latter, you're a Islamophobic Zionist. Christianity at its purest is the superior Middle Eastern culture in Bethlehem.



AnOminous said:


> Israel is part of Western civilization that just happens to be located in the Middle East.


It's Eastern civilization in soul, with Western aspects introduced by Turkic Khazar Ashkenazi immigrants from Europe since the Russian pogroms, and up to the founding of the state. I give it the benefit of the doubt over Arab countries, especially with a diverse economy not reliant on oil or tourism, but Israel is still no Singapore.


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## Trilby (Jul 14, 2016)

Ntwadumela said:


> Shame how most Middle Eastern countries/governments (yes this includes the Kuwaiti government as much as I dislike that fact) condemn Israel and praise Palestine honestly.


Yes, they could learn a lot from what Israel did in those fields that shouldn't be ignored.  I'm sure Israel is meant to be a template for how the Middle East should've pushed forward from the start.



Ntwadumela said:


> Brave guy he is.
> I have absolutely no idea why Kuwait would support Palestine even though they supported Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party during the Gulf War other than the fact that they're fellow Arabs. I always found it completely fucking stupid growing up and seeing maps in the textbooks cover Israel's name with Whiteout and replaced it with Palestine.


Sad to see that sort of censorship happen. Did they also rename cities like Tel Aviv?


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## CWCchange (Jul 14, 2016)

^Well Tel Aviv's original name was "Jaffa." Zionist pioneers adopted a Western-style "garden city" plan for what is presently considered the "White City" of Tel Aviv, an UNESCO World Heritage Site of "Bauhaus" architecture which blossomed in the 1920s Wiemar Republic.

Nobody uses the "Jaffa" name anymore unless it's for historical purposes, or refers to a type of orange and confectionery.


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## millais (Jul 14, 2016)

I heard Bedouins are supposed to be a pretty hospitable people and they seem to be pretty good about minding their own business and not fucking with their neighbors. I know historically they were sometimes bandits and desert raiders, but they mellowed out. ISIS apparently dislikes them because they won't be tied down to by the caliphate's borders. And at least the Bedouins in Israel are supportive of the Jewish state; they are the only Arab Israeli group subject to conscription and they serve in an elite IDF recon unit that makes the most of their desert survival skills.


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 14, 2016)

Tel Aviv is not Jaffa you idiot Jaffa is its own separate city that exists to this day

Here's where Tel Aviv was built on at first a hundred and ten years ago:






So from built on sand dunes in the middle of nothing to this today






Ps the khazar theory is absolute bullshit all historians laugh at


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## Jace E. Denton (Jul 14, 2016)

UAE


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## CWCchange (Jul 14, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Tel Aviv is not Jaffa you idiot Jaffa is its own separate city that exists to this day[/QU
> 
> Ps the khazar theory is absolute bullshit all historians laugh at


I wasn't implying Tel Aviv was built over Jaffa, but it wouldn't have existed as it does today if Jaffa didn't. The same could be said for a city like Ankara. Yes, I'm comparing Israel to Turkey. Both have said major cities which completely deny their heritage and take pleasure at taking advantage of the Western culture they wish to emulate.

P.S. It has never been disproved, and plenty of respectable Jewish scholars perceive it feasible today. Please explain to me how Ashkenazi Jews came to be from Semitic Jews wondering in the desert miles away. Also, speaking of Turkey and denial, is it coincidental that Israel denies the Armenian Genocide, considering many Young Turks were "dönmeh" near what was "Khazaria?" Why do Jews consider present Armenians as Amalekites?


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## AnOminous (Jul 14, 2016)

CWCchange said:


> Ps It has never been disproved, and plenty of respectable Jewish scholars perceive it feasible today. Please explain to me how Jews came to be from the Hebrews wondering in an African desert. Also, speaking of denial, why does Israel deny the Armenian Genocide, considering many of TYT were "dönmeh" from the very region called "Khazaria?" Why has this region known by modern terms as "Crimea" been a recent issue?



No genetic studies have provided any support whatsoever for this fringe bullshit and whatever life it still has is from the likes of David Duke.  It has as much merit as the racial nonsense from the Book of Mormon, similarly disproven by genetics.


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 14, 2016)

CWCchange said:


> I never said Tel Aviv was built over Jaffa, but it wouldn't have existed as it does today if Yaffa didn't exist. The same can be said for a city like Ankara. Yes, I'm comparing Israel to Turkey. Both are primal cities of nations who completely deny their heritage and take pleasure at taking advantage of the western culture they wish to emulate.



Yaffa is a completely different city. You said no one uses the name today, which is also false 

You have no idea what you are talking about and embarrassing yourself. To wit:



> Ps It has never been disproved, and plenty of respectable Jewish scholars perceive it feasible today. Please explain to me how Jews came to be from the Hebrews wondering in an African desert. Also, speaking of denial, why does Israel deny the Armenian Genocide, considering many of TYT were "dönmeh" from the very region called "Khazaria?" Why has this region known by modern terms as "Crimea" been a recent issue?



There are no "respectable" Jewish scholars who "perceive it feasible" and the Armenian genocide had nothing to do with your two retarded points.

It's clear you hate Jews based on the propaganda and conspiracies you are shitting this thread up with but you could at least put some thought into it


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## Abethedemon (Jul 14, 2016)

If we're talking about historically, then Ancient Egypt or Caanan.
If we're talking nowadays, Morocco is pretty cool, and Israel has a good amount of religious diversity. Bahrain is cool as well, great metal scene there, and not very radical.


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## CWCchange (Jul 14, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> No genetic studies have provided any support whatsoever for this fringe bullshit and whatever life it still has is from the likes of David Duke.  It has as much merit as the racial nonsense from the Book of Mormon, similarly disproven by genetics.


I was under the impression the David Dukes of the world thought Jews were black because some Ethiopians are, and the only reason they don't look black is because they're parasites who hijack the gene pool where they live. Such is indeed bullshit. We call the Khazar theory a "theory" because that's what it is. Countless others exist concerning Judaism outside the Middle East.



Internet War Criminal said:


> Yaffa is a completely different city. You said no one uses the name today, which is also false


Jaffa is considered Tel Aviv by Israeli governance, but I suppose you don't understand because it's different from the usual Western style government for municipalities. My point was  Tel Aviv exists today because Jaffa existed, and the difference in the old and modern city exemplifies Western influences over an Eastern culture.



> There are no "respectable" Jewish scholars who "perceive it feasible" and the Armenian genocide had nothing to do with your two retarded points.


Arthur Koestler, for one and many.



> It's clear you hate Jews based on the propaganda and conspiracies you are shitting this thread up with but you could at least put some thought into it


Alas, my shitposting here has become comparable to the time I said Chris should be blown up by ISIS for talking shit about Donald Trump. That was hilarious, and so are you. But I digress. I was under the impression that my first post ITT saying Christianity is the best thing which came from the Middle East, and how they're constantly persecuted today shows my contempt for both Judaism and Islam anyway. I could go with comparisons from condoning male genital mutilation, which warrants this thread's assured further derailment and lock-worthiness.


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## Internet War Criminal (Jul 14, 2016)

CWCchange said:


> I was under the impression the David Dukes of the world thought Jews were black because some Ethiopians are, and the only reason they don't look black is because they're parasites who absorb the gene pool of where they live. Such is indeed bullshit. We call the Khazar theory a "theory" because that's what it is. Countless others exist concerning Judaism outside the Middle East.



Right, as if you didn't know that the Khazar theory is extremely popular on WN websites where you read it from



CWCchange said:


> Yaffa is considered Tel Aviv by Israeli governance, but I suppose you don't understand because it's different from the usual WESTERN style government for municipalities. My point was modern Tel Aviv exists today because Yaffa, and difference in the old Hebrew and modern Jewish city exemplifies western influence over an oriental culture.



Yaffa is its own separate city to this day, it's just part of the same municipality administration as Tel Aviv since 1949 because of the Jewish neighborhood of Jaffa wanted to be part of neighborhing Tel Aviv and they decided to include the whole city after the war instead of just the Jewish quarter since they were neighboring and all. That's why all the signs say 'Tel Aviv-Yafo" not just Tel Aviv. 



CWCchange said:


> Arthur Koestler



He's a minority opinion and his book was _savaged_ by everyone when it came out and no one thinks he's credible at all on the subject. I'd wager $1,000 you never opened that book either and just googled that shit



CWCchange said:


> Regardless, I was under the impression that my first post ITT saying Christianity the the best thing which came from the Middle East, and how they're persecuted today shows my contempt for both Judaism and Islam anyway.



Israelis are not persecuting Christians, they are the only country where they are safe. You're not even /pol/-tier ignorant.


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## AnOminous (Jul 14, 2016)

CWCchange said:


> Arthur Koestler, for one and many.



Arthur Koestler died in fucking 1983.  Literally decades before any actual genetic research was done on this hypothesis.  And it's at best a hypothesis, not a theory.  A theory is supported by objective evidence.  What it really is now is discredited nonsense contradicted by hard science.


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## Keter (Jul 14, 2016)

Israel.  mostly because their culture values education and human rights.


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## CWCchange (Jul 15, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Yaffa is its own separate city to this day, it's just part of the same municipality administration as Tel Aviv since 1949 because of the Jewish neighborhood of Jaffa wanted to be part of neighborhing Tel Aviv and they decided to include the whole city after the war instead of just the Jewish quarter since they were neighboring and all. That's why all the signs say 'Tel Aviv-Yafo" not just Tel Aviv.


The earliest settlements, while built from scratch outside the historic boundaries, were part of Jaffa in earnest because Tel Aviv didn't exist until 1909. Even between 1910 and 1949 as separate city, a lot of cross-governmental policy from Jaffa was necessary. So, from a historical and present-day perspective, it's all the same fucking city. From a tourism prospective, some old city areas might be called Jaffa, but most of is classified by neighborhood. Funny, I would have thought this was your mindset to discredit the gentile aspects of it.



> He's a minority opinion and his book was _savaged_ by everyone when it came out and no one thinks he's credible at all on the subject. I'd wager $1,000 you never opened that book either and just googled that shit


I likely did originally, but I forget and don't care.



> Israelis are not persecuting Christians, they are the only country where they are safe. You're not even /pol/-tier ignorant.


While they're not being blown up, the moral high ground argument doesn't change the fact they're considered second class citizens or not even citizens at all. If I'm not /pol/-tier ignorant, what does that make me, EDF2-tier? You're a cuck and a shill for a country that doesn't even give a shit about you.



AnOminous said:


> Arthur Koestler died in fucking 1983.  Literally decades before any actual genetic research was done on this hypothesis.  And it's at best a hypothesis, not a theory.  A theory is supported by objective evidence.  What it really is now is discredited nonsense contradicted by hard science.


Ostrer, who is the lead geneticist claiming all Jews are principally of Semitic origin, refuses to share the research data. Not very scientific, huh? He's a pathologist by trade, and also claims Ashkenazis are related to Italians. Please...


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## ObongoTheCongoleseBongo (Jul 16, 2016)

Jon-Kacho said:


> Israel, because it's not run by Muslims.


Spotted the Jew-loving numale cuckold bitch.


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## Joan Nyan (Jul 16, 2016)

ObongoTheCongoleseBongo said:


> Spotted the Jew-loving numale cuckold bitch.


So?


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## fcgh vgcf (Jul 16, 2016)

kurds because they're christian


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## RP 520 (Jul 16, 2016)

Israel: because they're not constantly trying to kill each other all the time, are westernized, and know a threat when they see one.
Kurds: same as above, yet everyone ignores them and Turkey shits on them all the time.  They really need to just take over Northern Iraq and declare it Kurdistan already since they've done a much better job at fighting for something than the Iraqi army ever did.

Runner ups:


Jordanians: They've come a long way since the 1960's and are generally chill and accepting towards the world, they managed to survive the arab spring pretty unscathed. Their queen does a lot of charity work and raises awareness on many issues, plus she's super model tier to boot:






Notice the lack of a burqa, that's usually how you can tell a Middle Eastern country is sane.


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## Abethedemon (Jul 16, 2016)

I'd say the Druze or the Samaritans, possibly.


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## CWCchange (Jul 16, 2016)

fcgh vgcf said:


> kurds because they're christian


Hmm, no. Albeit pre-Mohammedan Yazdânism is still relevant in part of their culture, which they deserve credit for.


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 17, 2016)

Abethedemon said:


> I'd say the Druze or the Samaritans, possibly.


I have some good Lebanese friends who happen to be Druze.
Shame they're considered heretics in most parts of the Middle East.


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## Long Sun (Jul 17, 2016)

CWCchange said:


> Hmm, no. Albeit pre-Mohammedan Yazdânism is still relevant in part of their culture, which they deserve credit for.


religion is less important to most Kurds then the cause of the Kurdish Nation as one line of Ey Reqib ("O Enemy!" the Kurdish National Anthem) "Kurdistan is our religion, our credo." Kurds are really the only group that don't put religion first and formost


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## John Titor (Jul 17, 2016)

Abethedemon said:


> If we're talking about historically, then Ancient Egypt or Caanan.
> If we're talking nowadays, Morocco is pretty cool, and Israel has a good amount of religious diversity. Bahrain is cool as well, great metal scene there, and not very radical.


Morocco tries. Although technically they are considered North African.


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## Abethedemon (Jul 17, 2016)

John Titor said:


> Morocco tries. Although technically they are considered North African.


Yeah. I feel like North Africa is quite similar to the Middle East, although it is fairly different. I visited Morocco back in 2013 actually, very beautiful country, not just deserts.


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## Cosmos (Jul 21, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Israel is 1/6th of 1% of the whole Middle-East. 2% of the Middle-Eastern population. In light of that:
> 
> - Highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world
> - More scientific papers produced than any other nation in the world
> ...



I literally cannot comprehend why so many diehard liberals support Palestine unconditionally and act like Israel is the Third Reich reborn. Israel is a *massive *success story; they managed to achieve all of this _while_ surrounded by enemies on literally all sides. Can you even imagine how much better Israel would be if they were able to focus/spend money on on non-military matters instead?

Honestly, I feel like what holds most Middle Eastern countries back (aside from religious fundamentalism, sectarianism, and overall corruption ) is the gigantic victim complex they insist on holding onto. Everything is the West's fault. Everything is Israel's fault. Nothing is _ever_ their fault and they refuse to help themselves, instead contenting themselves by blaming everyone else. It's undeniable that Western (not just American, Europeans have their hands dirty, too) intervention has played a role in the current state of the Middle East, but I just hate how people (both the aforementioned diehard liberals as well as many Middle Easterners) act like the ME was a peaceful, stable place before Western powers fucked everything up. 

A big part of the victim-complex is Islam, or rather how many of its adherents interpret in. The self-victimization results from the fact that a lot of Muslim people think that Islam is _perfect_ - the perfect religion, derived from the perfect god, delivered through the perfect man, and written down in the Quran, which is perfect in its every syllable. Because the religion is perfect, it follows that nothing that is wrong in Muslim societies is the fault of those societies. All problems are externally caused. So many people start believing that "Islam is the solution" and increase religious fundamentalism while decreasing secularism. They refuse to look inwards and consider that maybe, just _maybe_, they should tone down the Islamism just little bit and put more effort into non-religious education and efforts. Instead they just keep getting more and more fundamentalist and intolerant, which means many Middle Eastern countries are getting worse instead of better.


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## Takayuki Yagami (Jul 21, 2016)

fcgh vgcf said:


> kurds because they're christian


I thought that most of them were comparatively irreverent Sunnis.


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## Enjoy your spaghetti (Jul 21, 2016)

UAE was cool, based on my very brief time in Abu Dhabi. I had a day and a half layover there and had a good time. Plus Etihad Airways coach is at least as good as any other business class. 

I got to spend a month bouncing back and forth between Alexandria and Cairo in the summer of 2010. It was kind of interesting to be in Egypt around that pre-Arab Spring time because although there were still portraits of Hosni Mubarak everywhere, the air felt like something was about to go off soon.


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 22, 2016)

Cosmos said:


> I literally cannot comprehend why so many diehard liberals support Palestine unconditionally and act like Israel is the Third Reich reborn. Israel is a *massive *success story; they managed to achieve all of this _while_ surrounded by enemies on literally all sides. Can you even imagine how much better Israel would be if they were able to focus/spend money on on non-military matters instead?
> 
> Honestly, I feel like what holds most Middle Eastern countries back (aside from religious fundamentalism, sectarianism, and overall corruption ) is the gigantic victim complex they insist on holding onto. Everything is the West's fault. Everything is Israel's fault. Nothing is _ever_ their fault and they refuse to help themselves, instead contenting themselves by blaming everyone else. It's undeniable that Western (not just American, Europeans have their hands dirty, too) intervention has played a role in the current state of the Middle East, but I just hate how people (both the aforementioned diehard liberals as well as many Middle Easterners) act like the ME was a peaceful, stable place before Western powers fucked everything up.
> 
> A big part of the victim-complex is Islam, or rather how many of its adherents interpret in. The self-victimization results from the fact that a lot of Muslim people think that Islam is _perfect_ - the perfect religion, derived from the perfect god, delivered through the perfect man, and written down in the Quran, which is perfect in its every syllable. Because the religion is perfect, it follows that nothing that is wrong in Muslim societies is the fault of those societies. All problems are externally caused. So many people start believing that "Islam is the solution" and increase religious fundamentalism while decreasing secularism. They refuse to look inwards and consider that maybe, just _maybe_, they should tone down the Islamism just little bit and put more effort into non-religious education and efforts. Instead they just keep getting more and more fundamentalist and intolerant, which means many Middle Eastern countries are getting worse instead of better.


This, and the fact that certain people will believe whatever shit the mutawas will make up even if it has no basis in Islam or logic, just because they're in a position to make Islamic Laws, and they often bend them to their own selfish interests as well.
Remember, the Saudi Arabian Grand Mufti has banned _Pokemon_.


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## autisticdragonkin (Jul 22, 2016)

Ntwadumela said:


> Remember, the Saudi Arabian Grand Mufti has banned _Pokemon_.


How is that to anyone's selfish interests (unless there is a conspiracy by the producers of digimon)


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## Ntwadumela (Jul 22, 2016)

autisticdragonkin said:


> How is that to anyone's selfish interests (unless there is a conspiracy by the producers of digimon)


That's just one reason they issue certain fatwas. The other is that they have hilarious and absurd justifications to issue certain fatwas to modern things that have NOTHING to do with Islam. They also claim because it was made by Non-Muslims it's automatically Anti-Islamic and therefore they want such things to not take hold in their country.
The Grand Mufti has accused the Pokemon games and cards of promoting Zionism and gambling.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/20/saudi-arabia-pokemon-go-ban

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/20/saudi-arabia-renews-fatwa-for-pokmon-go/


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## Abethedemon (Jul 22, 2016)

If we're talking about ancient cultures, I would also nominate ancient Persia.
They were quite progressive for their time, women had a lot of status and they allowed their subjects to practice their own religions.


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## Save Goober (Jul 22, 2016)

Internet War Criminal said:


> Israel is 1/6th of 1% of the whole Middle-East. 2% of the Middle-Eastern population. In light of that:
> 
> - Highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world
> - More scientific papers produced than any other nation in the world
> ...



Yeah, it's pretty telling that Israel as a country has only existed for a brief moment compared to the rest of the middle east yet fucking owns them in every meaningful way.


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## AnOminous (Jul 22, 2016)

melty said:


> Yeah, it's pretty telling that Israel as a country has only existed for a brief moment compared to the rest of the middle east yet fucking owns them in every meaningful way.



To be fair they had a lot of foreign assistance mostly from the United States, but that really doesn't account for it.

You could pour that much money into nearly any other Middle Eastern country and still have a complete shithole and all your money gone.  E.g. Iraq.


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## Terrorist (Jul 24, 2016)

Gotta say pre-Ayatollah Iranians (who were the most modern in the region, produced a wealth of scientific, cultural and artistic advances the Arab cultures copied, and even now possess the scientific acumen to build nuclear weapons independent of the west), and the Turks (badass empire-builders and the only middle-eastern people to make secularism/religious pluralism work). I would include Israel (only ME state I would want to live in, and leagues ahead of everyone else), but they've only been there for 68 years and their culture is more transplanted European-Jewish than middle eastern Jewish. Kinda like comparing the USA with native american cultures imho, same geography but different roots.


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## TheRedRanger (Jul 25, 2016)

If we go by culture, that is to say everyday shit, I might say Iran. Seriously.
OK, the government is fucked, no argument from me, but how much of a shit do most Iranians give about Islamism? Not much.
OK, they aren't allowed to drink, but in the middle east, people don't really consider that much of a deal. They just get on with their business and just politely humour the Ayatollah for the most part.

Remember, Iran produced The Perfumed Garden, one of the most famous erotic novels in the world. And they have a saying; There are two books in every household, and only one ever gets read.


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## AnOminous (Jul 25, 2016)

TheRedRanger said:


> OK, they aren't allowed to drink, but in the middle east, people don't really consider that much of a deal.



Also they drink anyway if they feel like it.


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## TheRedRanger (Jul 25, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Also they drink anyway if they feel like it.


Oh yeah, I worked with an Iranian guy once, and I was amazed that he was the first one to suggest going out to get shitfaced.


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## Van Darkholme (Jul 25, 2016)

Terrorist said:


> (badass empire-builders and the only middle-eastern people *to make secularism/religious pluralism work*).



That should change soon enough with Erdogan in charge.


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## komugi (Aug 11, 2016)

Pakistan is not in the Middle East. My dad's from there lol


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## theblazecode (Aug 25, 2016)

Israel, hands down. With Turkey in a distant second place.


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## Shokew (Aug 25, 2016)

theblazecode said:


> Israel, hands down. With Turkey in a distant second place.



I'm sorry, but Turkey is a shithole right now. The only sane Middle Eastern nation (that isn't somewhere in Northern Africa that's considered sane, but otherwise flawed like the rest.) is Israel.


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## The Kebab and Calculator (Aug 25, 2016)

Oman. Amazing place and one of my favourite places on earth.


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## Thespy (Sep 19, 2016)

Jon-Kacho said:


> Israel, because it's not run by Muslims.









The correct answer was Lebanon because it's probably the most secular middle eastern nation.

The only thing that keeps Lebanon's Sunni, Shia, and Chirstchen subjects united is their hatred for Israel and Jews in general. Truly a glorious moment for Middle Eastern history.


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