# Restorative Justice



## Save Goober (Mar 1, 2021)

Restorative Justice is the latest SJW-ism to come along in the context of reforming the justice system, abolishing the police, eliminating prisons, etc. What is Restorative Justice?



> Restorative justice is an approach to justice in which one of the responses to a crime is to organize a meeting between the victim and the offender, sometimes with representatives of the wider community. The goal is for them to share their experience of what happened, to discuss who was harmed by the crime and how, and to create a consensus for what the offender can do to repair the harm from the offense. This may include a payment of money given from the offender to the victim, apologies and other amends, and other actions to compensate those affected and to prevent the offender from causing future harm.



I've tried to find more nuance to it, but that's pretty much it. Instead of going to police, if somebody steals from you or whatever, you sit down and talk to them about how hurt your feelings are. Now you might think that this sounds like some feel good bullshit that doesn't actually work. And you're probably right. But it's becoming increasingly popular among SJWs. Here's Vox on it:


			https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/10/10/17953016/what-is-restorative-justice-definition-questions-circle
		

https://archive.md/Kp53C


Spoiler: Long






> “When I was crying, that was no,” Sofia yelled. “When I pushed your hands away, that was no! And when I said, ‘I’m not that kind of girl,’ that was NO! I want to know what you were thinking. What were you thinking?”
> I was sitting with Sofia, 15 years old, as she directly addressed Michael, her 18-year-old schoolmate who had sexually assaulted her. This face-to-face dialogue was the conclusion of a month-long process during which I’d been helping these young people practice restorative justice.
> Michael’s eyes darted between mine and Sofia’s. “I don’t want to say anything that makes it your fault,” he said. “I don’t want to say what I was thinking ’cause it was stupid.”
> He looked at me again. I nodded to encourage him to share what he’d shared with me earlier. He took a deep breath, pulled out the sheet of paper he’d written his notes on, and began.
> ...






It's apparently becoming a thing in schools. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't work very well.








						Restorative justice isn't working, but that's not what the media is reporting
					

Last week, the first randomized control trial study of “restorative justice” in a major urban district, Pittsburgh Public Schools, was published by the RAND Corporation.




					fordhaminstitute.org
				





> Last week, the first randomized control trial study of “restorative justice” in a major urban district, Pittsburgh Public Schools, was published by the RAND Corporation.
> 
> The results were curiously mixed. Suspensions went down in elementary but not middle schools. Teachers reported improved school safety, professional environment, and classroom management ability. But students disagreed. They thought their teachers’ classroom management deteriorated, and that students in class were less respectful and supportive of each other; at a lower confidence interval, they reported bullying and more instructional time lost to disruption. And although restorative justice is billed as a way to fight the “school-to-prison pipeline,” it had no impact on student arrests.
> 
> ...



Now what's interesting is when I first started hearing about this, it sounded really familiar - fundie churches are notorious for this exact thing. There are a ton of stories of underaged women being assaulted or raped by men in their church, and instead of going to the police, everyone goes through the church, and the man, woman, their families, and the church leaders all sit around and talk about it and pray about it. Women who have experienced this and left the church have as many fond things to say about this extrajudicial process as you may imagine, which is none.

And it turns out I was totally right, this is exactly the same shit from churches. From http://restorativejustice.org/ About Us:



> As a program of Prison Fellowship International, the Centre helps PFI's 125 national affiliates advance timeless principles of justice and reconciliation in their criminal justice systems.
> 
> Mission
> Convinced that restorative justice is an important contemporary expression of those principles, the Centre has adopted the following mission: To develop and promote restorative justice in criminal justice systems around the world.
> ...



Prison Fellowship International is an NGO that promotes Restorative Justice and offers prison ministries and various other religious activities in prisons:


			https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Fellowship_International
		


I think it's pretty creepy that not only did they steal this from churches, they're trying to push it in the same sorts of cases - sexual assault - that religious women have long complained about. 

Has anyone come into contact with this Restorative Justice shit? Thoughts?


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## Beautiful Border (Mar 1, 2021)

Restorative justice relies on the premise that the offender feels guilt and remorse for their actions. The problem is that the kind of person who would feel guilty for committing a crime generally isn't the kind of person who commits crimes in the first place (something which should be obvious, but apparently not). It's a concept that's so stupid and naive that only a sheltered white upper-middle class academic could think it's a good idea.


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## Chilson (Mar 1, 2021)

Humans are not wired to give a shit if someone is in the way of something we need. Maslow's hierarchy of needs puts home, safety and food at the bottom because they are the most necessary. 

People who steal, deal drugs, run in gangs or whatever the fuck do so out of innate need to do so because it helps them to secure one of these needs. I am not saying that it is a good way to get those needs, but to them its the only way the know. People are also inherently egotistical, we are self centered and create whatever mental fantasies and justifications we need to justify our actions as correct, even when they are clearly not. Gangs, where most serious crimes are committed, also reinforce and praise these behaviors giving further justification and belonging to those who commit crimes.

Mix all this together and you get people who don't give a fuck how someone "feels" about what crime they committed. The only way to prevent it is to put barriers in the way. These barriers are most obviously prison, though with the way high and even some medium security prisons are run on the inside if the person was not a member of a gang before they went in they are almost assuredly part of one going out. Not to mention how prison overcrowding leads to many inmates being released way before their full sentence, but that is a whole other can of beans.

However, I have always supported prison job programs to get people degrees or trade licenses on the inside so they could find another way to secure home, safety and food. There are many other such ideas that have far more impact and actually help prevent crimes than Restorative justice, which is yet more nonsense for SJW's to preach about because of how difficult it is to accept that 13% of the population commits over half the crimes.


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## DeadFish (Mar 1, 2021)

Gengas Khan was upfront. I steal from you cause I want to. Any other moral imperative is self rationalization for the same impulse


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## Save the Loli (Mar 1, 2021)

A lot of the restorative justice BS will emphasize how "it worked for Native Americans and Africans for thousands of years" which reeks of the usual noble savage shit the SJW types love. Now, they aren't wrong, those societies were very functional and many of them did practice restorative justice. But I think we all agree there's a difference between doing that sort of shit in a village or tribal group of maybe 100 people where everyone is vaguely related and today's communities which have many thousands of people. There's another key problem too in that misunderstands how exactly they did restorative justice in those societies. Yes, they sat down and talked it out, but the victim was the one who had the say over the punishment and restitution the offender owed them.

And it could be anything, like the offender might be banished into the wild where they'd eventually die of starvation or something, the offender might be forced to be a temporary slave to the victim (and yes, some were sold to the white man as slaves for life), the offender might have to pay a fuckton of money. It's "restorative" in that it restored the relationship between the victim and offender which kept society functioning.


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## Lone MacReady (Mar 1, 2021)

Good luck having a faggy, elementary school-tier feels pow- between a Murderer/Rapist and his victim's family. Holy fuck do we live in a evermore irradiated open-air adult daycare center.


Chilson said:


> Humans are not wired to give a shit if someone is in the way of something we need. Maslow's hierarchy of needs puts home, safety and food at the bottom because they are the most necessary.
> 
> People who steal, deal drugs, run in gangs or whatever the fuck do so out of innate need to do so because it helps them to secure one of these needs. I am not saying that it is a good way to get those needs, but to them its the only way the know. People are also inherently egotistical, we are self centered and create whatever mental fantasies and justifications we need to justify our actions as correct, even when they are clearly not. Gangs, where most serious crimes are committed, also reinforce and praise these behaviors giving further justification and belonging to those who commit crimes.
> 
> ...


5%, you have to account for that gender/age demo split. Shaniqwa may be insufferable, but she isn't commiting disproportionate murder quite like young Omar is.


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## Ita Mori (Mar 1, 2021)

> The most troubling thing: There were significant and substantial negative effects on math achievement for middle school students, black students, and students in schools that are predominantly black.


Ah yes, the worst thing in all of this is how it affects small niggas. Of course.
Ngl, EsJays have worked very hard to ensure every other race resents their pet nigs, who admittedly aren't even at fault for it.
One must remember to have enough buckshot for both the jogger and the soy.



> perhaps restorative justice is uniquely bad for black students


Or maybe, just maybe, kids of any race can see through how deceptive this whole sham is, and realize they can be as unruly as they want so long as they pretend to feel bad about it in front of the dangerhair who has a fetish for them.
The only kids who suffer are those who want to study and get ahead while the future burger flippers and amazon employees get to act out on them with near impunity.




melty said:


> Has anyone come into contact with this Restorative Justice shit?


I have no plans to.
Assuming I ever had the ill fate of being in a rape scenario, the only justice I find suitable is like they said in Casino;_ there's a lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes._


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## Kosher Dill (Mar 1, 2021)

Save the Loli said:


> There's another key problem too in that misunderstands how exactly they did restorative justice in those societies. Yes, they sat down and talked it out, but the victim was the one who had the say over the punishment and restitution the offender owed them.


I'm interested in reading more about this, do you have any recommendations?


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## Save the Loli (Mar 1, 2021)

Kosher Dill said:


> I'm interested in reading more about this, do you have any recommendations?


Can't think of any off the top of my head, it's mostly a bunch of anthropology/ethnographic stuff (some for college, some because why not do something interesting like study other cultures) about Africans and Native Americans I've read when it describes how some of them solved internal disputes (which often was people doing criminal shit to each other). This is what the chief, village headman, etc. was involved in.

If you look at which societies were practicing restorative justice, it's mostly the small-scale societies. Although I guess shit like Germanic weregild ("kill a person, you owe him X amount of money") is similar and bigger societies like Anglo-Saxon England had that in their justice system (although Germanic society let a murder victim's family kill the murderer which isn't very restorative). But anyway, considering that a lot of small hunter gatherer peoples (and ones maybe one step above it like the African tribes who farm on really bad land so still hunt a lot of their food) all over the world practiced this sort of justice it's an interesting look into how human society evolved. Ultimately though, I think you'd really have to tweak a restorative justice system to make it work in modern society. There's probably a reason most societies moved onto shit like "steal something, get your hand cut off" and public lashings.


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## Mnutu (Mar 2, 2021)

Restorative and rehabilitative justice is shit. If you did something to land you into the big boy house, your ass should be on death row. If you’re in the play pen, pay up or lay up. Punitive is the only effective method, because it doesn’t need the guilty party to feel remorse or want something better. It cares about upholding the law. Frankly, a remorseful criminal would accept the punishment.


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## Drain Todger (Mar 2, 2021)

I have a much better idea. Public caning. Not with a rattan cane, but with a stiff and wrinkly bull penis cane wielded by a man in a dapper tailcoat, top hat and monocle, just for that extra dose of old-timey chauvinism.




No more wasteful and expensive prisons. No more executions. None of this silly, pansy restorative justice business. If someone does something wrong, just beat that fucker's ass raw with a dehydrated bull cock in full view of everyone. That'll learn 'em.



melty said:


> Now what's interesting is when I first started hearing about this, it sounded really familiar - fundie churches are notorious for this exact thing. There are a ton of stories of underaged women being assaulted or raped by men in their church, and instead of going to the police, everyone goes through the church, and the man, woman, their families, and the church leaders all sit around and talk about it and pray about it. Women who have experienced this and left the church have as many fond things to say about this extrajudicial process as you may imagine, which is none.
> 
> And it turns out I was totally right, this is exactly the same shit from churches. From http://restorativejustice.org/ About Us:
> 
> ...


Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Mar 2, 2021)

Mnutu said:


> Restorative and rehabilitative justice is shit. If you did something to land you into the big boy house, your ass should be on death row. If you’re in the play pen, pay up or lay up. Punitive is the only effective method, because it doesn’t need the guilty party to feel remorse or want something better. It cares about upholding the law. Frankly, a remorseful criminal would accept the punishment.


That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world. The United States, meanwhile, has a justice system which emphasizes punishment, yet has some of the highest rates of recidivism in the world, coupled with a violent crime rate which far exceeds what you would expect for a country of it's relative wealth.


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## DeadFish (Mar 2, 2021)

Drain Todger said:


> I have a much better idea. Public caning. Not with a rattan cane, but with a stiff and wrinkly bull penis cane wielded by a man in a dapper tailcoat, top hat and monocle, just for that extra dose of old-timey chauvinism.
> 
> View attachment 1962772
> 
> ...


How many are funded by the ccp?


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## Mnutu (Mar 2, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world. The United States, meanwhile, has a justice system which emphasizes punishment, yet has some of the highest rates of recidivism in the world, coupled with a violent crime rate which far exceeds what you would expect for a country of it's relative wealth.


Compare Sweden to Norway in demographics and recidivism and you’ll have the real reason why. America has been rehabilitative for decades (admittedly, it’s not particularly good or well implemented). You can’t rehabilitate the unwilling.

If it’s specifically the American system, we need to re-evaluate infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies. Felonies ought to be reserved for crimes worthy of execution, and misdemeanors for crimes worthy of no more than a year in jail. It’s worse to imprison someone for years than it is to execute them.


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## Whatsup bud? (Mar 2, 2021)

As long as one of the resolutions can be public hangings, bring it on


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## Save Goober (Mar 2, 2021)

Drain Todger said:


> Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.


Yep, the woman who wrote the Vox article recieved a Soros Justice Fellowship for her "work", so there you go.
She also recieved a MacArthur Genius Grant.


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Mar 2, 2021)

Mnutu said:


> Compare Sweden to Norway in demographics and recidivism and you’ll have the real reason why. America has been rehabilitative for decades (admittedly, it’s not particularly good or well implemented). You can’t rehabilitate the unwilling.
> 
> If it’s specifically the American system, we need to re-evaluate infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies. Felonies ought to be reserved for crimes worthy of execution, and misdemeanors for crimes worthy of no more than a year in jail. It’s worse to imprison someone for years than it is to execute them.


Sweden still has far lower levels of crime than the United States, and even when accounting for the uptake in immigration, the crime rate has only moderately gone up since the 90s. The Swedish approach to crime is demonstrably more successful than the US approach, and if you really think about it you'll understand why. Emphasizing punishment as a means to combat crime doesn't work for the simple reason that people don't commit crimes thinking they're going to get caught; by that point, the system has already failed.

I'm also at a loss as to how executing people is preferable to imprisonment; especially in the very real circumstances where people can be wrongfully convicted. How are you supposed to undo the injustice of a wrongful execution? How, for that matter, does executing people undo any of the harm the perpetrator may have caused? In what way is granting the state the authority to destroy lives a good idea? This isn't the way that a civilized society responds to crime; it's primitive retribution.


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## Mnutu (Mar 2, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> Sweden still has far lower levels of crime than the United States, and even when accounting for the uptake in immigration, the crime rate has only moderately gone up since the 90s. The Swedish approach to crime is demonstrably more successful than the US approach, and if you really think about it you'll understand why. Emphasizing punishment as a means to combat crime doesn't work for the simple reason that people don't commit crimes thinking they're going to get caught; by that point, the system has already failed.
> 
> I'm also at a loss as to how executing people is preferable to imprisonment; especially in the very real circumstances where people can be wrongfully convicted. How are you supposed to undo the injustice of a wrongful execution? How, for that matter, does executing people undo any of the harm the perpetrator may have caused? In what way is granting the state the authority to destroy lives a good idea? This isn't the way that a civilized society responds to crime; it's primitive retribution.


Re-read that again; compare Sweden to Norway. Sweden’s crime has increased because of increased immigration. Sweden has a relatively low crime rate, but it’s blown out of the water by Norway. You are comparing apples to oranges anytime you compare America to Scandinavia. Completely different cultures. But you can notice that any time a country has a larger minority, there is an increase in crime.

Civilization has always relied on killing and execution. Stop pretending like it hasn’t. Name one society anywhere in the world that hasn’t required state executions at any point in its history. The idea is to re-evaluate the severity of crimes. Most crimes should fall into either infractions or misdemeanors. Meaning the worst you get is a year or two of jail time. Miscarriage of justice is a problem even for lifers, you can’t just pretend that because you let him out you haven’t taken 20 years of his life away.


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Mar 2, 2021)

Mnutu said:


> Civilization has always relied on killing and execution. Stop pretending like it hasn’t. Name one society anywhere in the world that hasn’t required state executions at any point in its history. The idea is to re-evaluate the severity of crimes. Most crimes should fall into either infractions or misdemeanors. Meaning the worst you get is a year or two of jail time. Miscarriage of justice is a problem even for lifers, you can’t just pretend that because you let him out you haven’t taken 20 years of his life away.


The definition of civilization is a state of political and cultural development which is considered most advanced. There was a time when most societies considered civilized practiced execution, but nowadays that is no longer the case. Most civilized countries have now abolished the death penalty, and doing so hasn't coincided with an increase in violent crime; quite the opposite in fact.

The point about miscarriage of justice is related to a broader point about rehabilitation here. A person who has been wrongfully imprisoned can be heavily compensated, and while that doesn't undo the injustice they've faced, it's clearly morally preferable to them being dead. By the same token, someone being rehabilitated and hopefully finding contrition for their wrongdoing in the process is clearly better than just killing them. Death is final, and if human life is so cheap in the eyes of the law that it would rather dispose of people than invest in their betterment, then I'd say the law is not very civilized.


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## DeadFish (Mar 2, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> The definition of civilization is a state of political and cultural development which is considered most advanced. There was a time when most societies considered civilized practiced execution, but nowadays that is no longer the case. Most civilized countries have now abolished the death penalty, and doing so hasn't coincided with an increase in violent crime; quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> The point about miscarriage of justice is related to a broader point about rehabilitation here. A person who has been wrongfully imprisoned can be heavily compensated, and while that doesn't undo the injustice they've faced, it's clearly morally preferable to them being dead. By the same token, someone being rehabilitated and hopefully finding contrition for their wrongdoing in the process is clearly better than just killing them. Death is final, and if human life is so cheap in the eyes of the law that it would rather dispose of people than invest in their betterment, then I'd say the law is not very civilized.


If a person is innocent but gets snapped for a crime they didn't commit then it's better they die. Such an unlucky person is a detriment to society as a whole.


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## Kosher Dill (Mar 2, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world.


Rehabilitation works fine when you're bringing someone _back_ into regular law-abiding society. When you have a cohesive society with a high degree of equality this is perfectly sensible, but I think it's less clear when you have a permanent underclass or a population of newcomers who never had any intention of integrating into society.

Not that I'm entirely thrilled with the idea that "Our country failed to integrate you, _therefore_ we must institute harsh punishment for you."


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## Drag-on Knight 91873 (Mar 2, 2021)

Lone MacReady said:


> Good luck having a faggy, elementary school-tier feels pow- between a Murderer/Rapist and his victim's family. Holy fuck do we live in a evermore irradiated open-air adult daycare center.


Even when I was in elementary school, I knew restorative Justice was retarded beyond belief.


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## Xerxes IX (Mar 2, 2021)

melty said:


> I think it's pretty creepy that not only did they steal this from churches, they're trying to push it in the same sorts of cases - sexual assault - that religious women have long complained about.


I'm shocked they'd go there at ALL when the idea of men are rapist scum who deserve nothing is so prevalent in these circles. Now it's ok and justice has been achieved because the sexual assaulter said he's really sorry?

There have literally been articles about this stuff saying cartoons like fucking Steven Universe prove restorative justice will work. Like that didn't get a lot of criticism from the left for saying the genocidal, fascist dictators (who are also stand-ins for abusive family members) can be redeemed by the same stuff that's being pushed as restorative justice.


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## Wallace (Mar 2, 2021)

The problem with restorative justice is that it requires the offender to admit that they did something wrong and have the desire to make amends. I can say from experience that this is not the case for many felons. I couldn't say how many feel this way, but I would say at least half, probably more. Teaching empathy to adults who lack it is an uphill battle. The fact that a lot of felons have severe untreated mental illnesses doesn't help either.

The current climate of SocJus doesn't do this mindset any favors either, since it emphasizes that the oppressed do not have agency, and whatever they do to their oppressors does not count as harm. Restorative justice won't work unless the offender admits their fault. Like all SJW talking points, it's more about making people feel good about themselves rather than actually fixing the problems.


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## Zero Day Defense (Mar 3, 2021)

Lone MacReady said:


> 5%, you have to account for that gender/age demo split. Shaniqwa may be insufferable, but she isn't commiting disproportionate murder quite like young Omar is.


You also have to account for the geographical distribution of those crimes.


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## CallMeKiwi (Mar 17, 2021)

Someone needs to ask prison abolitionists "what about Derek Chauvin?" right to their face, and record what happens.


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## Father Brown (Mar 17, 2021)

Criminals commit crimes because they think it's a good idea at the time. They think it's a good idea at the time, because factoring in time discounting, they prospect it to be one.

Now, Jamal has a very high time discount rate and he's not so good at prospecting. These two things are highly correlated and the latter is probably not very changeable in

The problem most forms of restorative justice run into is that they never consider that Jamal was acting in his perceived self-interest, which is something like the most obvious thing ever. But, it still gets missed and instead criminal actions are understood as some always curable pathology; a kind of extricable cancer of the mind that can be removed by hugs, positive feelings and a minimum wage job.

Sometimes this kind of stuff can work, maybe you can stop Jamal from hosing down a block party on south side through a court ordered mentorship program. But, more likely this kind of stuff will fail, especially when the crimes are less retarded -- think any crime where the pay off is more than just cathartic.

Worse still, most programs are going to lack intelligent incentive structures; it doesn't matter if my youth outreach/reintegration program is totally useless, because no one will pay that close attention and outcome monitoring is guaranteed to be dog shit. Also, there's never going to be anything to replace it with except another dog shit, also totally ineffective scheme. If you're lucky, you'll rediscover the wheel after ten years and go back to sending everyone to the slammer for 9 trillion years. There might exist a program that would kind of work. However, you probably won't find it and the incentives at play aren't to reduce crime, but to get paid and any program is going to be highly dependent on the quality of the implementation.

In the end the cold hard truth of the matter is that sending people to prison reduces crime and sending them to prison for longer reduces crime even more. There's a strong argument for not sending people to prison for things that aren't really significant crimes, or that don't betoken a general proclivity towards criminality. But even then the solution is not "restorative justice," but just other kinds of sanctions that don't disrupt their lives as much or put them into contact with worse offenders. Honestly, punishment for minor drug possession offences should just be caning, no prison, just a dozen strokes of the cane.

There is also no fact of the matter on whether this or that is "just"; justice is just a question of (usually self-serving) expectations. Confront the problem of crime on the basis of what minimizes crime, not whether this or that is "just" or whatever. Justice is basically just a matter of consistency.


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## mindlessobserver (Mar 22, 2021)

I have to ask...what are the rare pepes going for?


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## mr.moon1488 (Mar 22, 2021)

The original concept of restorative justice wasn't bad at all and worked pretty well for juvenile offenders who'd committed petty crimes.  The problem is since it's a system that works by an offender developing empathy for their victims, it's not going to work on any serious offenders.  Studies have shown that most serious offenders in prison score high on the PCL-R.  I wonder why a system that relies on the development of empathy might not work too well.  

 



Spoiler


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Mar 22, 2021)

Restorative justice works for purse-snatchers, ticket-scalpers, and pickpockets, not for murderers, muggers, rapists, or burglars.


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## Return of the Freaker (Mar 22, 2021)

Get the Juice to give back my foreskin now that's restorative justice lmao


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## Cool Dog (Mar 26, 2021)

Once again SJWs do the horseshoe and end up right next to fundies

I been telling a few euphoric fedoras that you dont need religion to be a fucking fundie lunatic, the soviets and commie chinese already showed you can be an atheist nation and yet have a bunch of dogmatic fanatical fucks running around killing people over wrongthink. The spanish inquisition was a joke compared to the red terror or the cultural revolution.


Hellbound Hellhound said:


> That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world. The United States, meanwhile, has a justice system which emphasizes punishment, yet has some of the highest rates of recidivism in the world, coupled with a violent crime rate which far exceeds what you would expect for a country of it's relative wealth.


People who say this forget sweden had an eugenics program up until the 70s where they sterilized violent criminals and psychopaths, then they are surprised that sweden now lacks those characters and have such low crimes rates

Consider how simply making abortion legal in burgerland did more to lower their crime rate than anything else they done, what does that tell you? simple: violent thuggish psychos shouldnt reproduce.


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## jje100010001 (Mar 26, 2021)

Honestly it might work if it actually engages the perpetrators and makes them reconcile with the community, for others who don't think that they're doing anything wrong, it's just another useless mandatory class that they sit through while their brains are turned off.

In short, it might work if society was strongly moral-bound, with a strong culture of guilt and stoicism (i.e. Japan). In places like America where blame is the game, and where entire demographics are literally excused for their actions, I don't see it ever working.

Also like what others are saying, this doesn't work for sociopathic or psychopathic criminals, since they literally cannot develop any sort of empathy for the victim. Walls and jails exist for a reason, after all.


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## Alexander Thaut (Mar 27, 2021)

restorative justice will work without the internet or msm.

aka never.


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## DiscoRodeo (Mar 27, 2021)

It's just an old christian adage of "forgive thine enemy" translated into modernity. 

The thing with the old christian adage though is, some sins are so serious that only god will forgive you and on this earth, they do need to be punished.

For the majority of crimes, I'm fine with something along the lines of restorative justice after or during the punishment for the crime. For some more serious crimes, I think there are things that no matter how much you may pity the person, they have a black mark that they can't return from. There may be redemption for a person, but that redemption probably leads well out of the society they forfeited their right to.

The fact that so many people take restorative justice to mean "mercy please, your honor" when the person committing the crime themselves was anything but merciful and is only sorry that they got caught, just perverts the concept and makes it so that we'd be largely better off without it in the first place if its going to get misused 90% of the time.


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Mar 27, 2021)

Cool Dog said:


> People who say this forget sweden had an eugenics program up until the 70s where they sterilized violent criminals and psychopaths, then they are surprised that sweden now lacks those characters and have such low crimes rates


This consideration totally neglects the fact that crime in Sweden hasn't increased since the 70s to a degree which would suggest that "eugenics" is the real reason crime is so low there. You're also neglecting my central argument about why crime is so low in Europe: specifically with regard to how criminal motivation and deterrence works.

There are plenty of countries around the world which implement harsh punishments for offenders (invariably, less civilized ones), and they don't have lower crime as a result. Read the literature of any serious criminologist and you'll understand why; even works as early as _On Crimes and Punishments_ by Cesare Beccaria reject the retributive approach entirely.


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## Cool Dog (Mar 27, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> This consideration totally neglects the fact that crime in Sweden hasn't increased since the 70s


Native population or immigrants? and within immigrants which groups?


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Mar 28, 2021)

Cool Dog said:


> Native population or immigrants? and within immigrants which groups?


I'm assuming you're wanting me to address the immigrant groups who recently arrived from the Middle East, in which case my argument holds up very well. Just about every Middle Eastern country has a more punitive justice system than Sweden. look at the outcomes of each culture, and tell me which one is working better.


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## Cool Dog (Mar 28, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> I'm assuming you're wanting me to address the immigrant groups who recently arrived from the Middle East, in which case my argument holds up very well. Just about every Middle Eastern country has a more punitive justice system than Sweden. look at the outcomes of each culture, and tell me which one is working better.


Dont beat around the bush, you know I mean data from sweden divided by demographic groups, and since the 70s since you say crime is going down


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## TitusOvid (Mar 28, 2021)

Crime being high in the Middle East is because Islam isn't conducive to peaceful society not because they don't practice restorative justice. The Middle East actually has restorative justice as an option for even murder where you can pay the victims family and be pardoned. 



> Those who are entitled to qisas have the option of receiving monetary compensation (diyya) or granting pardon to the perpetrator instead.











						Qisas - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




Also Sweden's low level of crime can be more attributed to its homogeneity but with their increased diversity that's now changing. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/most-read-2020-sweden-s-new-epidemic-clan-based-crime


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## Hellbound Hellhound (Mar 28, 2021)

Cool Dog said:


> Dont beat around the bush, you know I mean data from sweden divided by demographic groups, and since the 70s since you say crime is going down


I didn't say that crime in Sweden has gone down since the 70s; I actually pointed out earlier in the thread that it has moderately increased since the 90s. If you wish to attribute this rise to recent immigration, fine, but this still fails to address why Sweden's crime rate was so low to begin with; especially with regard to the kind of justice system it has.

I'm not the one who is beating around the bush here. The central argument in this thread is one concerning what kind of justice system is optimal for society, and I have made my argument in that regard. If you have a better idea, please present it.


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## Cool Dog (Mar 28, 2021)

Hellbound Hellhound said:


> I didn't say that crime in Sweden has gone down since the 70s; I actually pointed out earlier in the thread that it has moderately increased since the 90s. If you wish to attribute this rise to recent immigration, fine, but this still fails to address why Sweden's crime rate was so low to begin with; especially with regard to the kind of justice system it has.
> 
> I'm not the one who is beating around the bush here. The central argument in this thread is one concerning what kind of justice system is optimal for society, and I have made my argument in that regard. If you have a better idea, please present it.


Just give me the crime data divided by demo group already, I cant read swede


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## Pentex (Mar 29, 2021)

melty said:


> I've tried to find more nuance to it, but that's pretty much it. Instead of going to police, if somebody steals from you or whatever, you sit down and talk to them about how hurt your feelings are.


I would rather cut off his hand(s).


melty said:


> There are a ton of stories of underaged women being assaulted or raped by men in their church, and instead of going to the police, everyone goes through the church, and the man, woman, their families, and the church leaders all sit around and talk about it and pray about it. Women who have experienced this and left the church have as many fond things to say about this extrajudicial process as you may imagine, which is none.


I doubt the existence of 'tons' of cases just as a doubt the feminist shibboleth that every woman has been raped two dozen times in her life (I exaggerate only slightly and only for emphasis). This is typically the set up for some charge of hypocrisy, but the thing of it is, if everyone else being a tribalist, and siding with outsiders against the tribe is bad, why is it wrong for the Xtians to do the same?

The Jews help their rapists flee to the promised land and the Muslims regard raping kaffir as no big deal.

Also, 'restorative justice' was the brainchild of Albert Eglash, a prison psychologist, as a compliment to restitution. His initial paper didn't argue that criminals should be set loose with a slap-on-the-wrist or after the 'victim' forgave them ('victims' are not drivers of criminal jurisprudence, they are pieces of evidence; crimes are offenses committed against the state, which is why the state is the plaintiff). He stated explicitly that the 'restorative' aspect was the restoration of the offender's empathy and personal responsibility.


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## Haim Arlosoroff (Mar 30, 2021)

melty said:


> Restorative Justice is the latest SJW-ism to come along in the context of reforming the justice system, abolishing the police, eliminating prisons, etc. What is Restorative Justice?


Without coming into any details which would dox me, I've had an offer to undergo this process in regards to a customer of my employer and I's interaction during company time.  Obviously, I refused on the grounds that it wasn't at all part of my job to do this and wasn't going to happen during regular office hours or a location where I've normally worked.  I was pressured to, mostly by HR, in a tone that this was serious and mandatory but I wanted them to punish me for it since this was a clear case of a customer getting arrested for attacking my car which wasn't a company car & was sitting in the parking lot where I work.  The reason for the mediation and the restorative justice was because the head boss knew the guy's parents and didn't want this to go to any court.  In the end, because I refused it I ironically got to undergo it with my bosses' bosses' boss covering for some young adult idiot lest I press charges on what already involved an arrest and was photographed by multiple people.  I got a nice lump sum bonus on my pay and got the boss to mistakenly sign a sheet of paper explaining what it was for in case anything else came of it.

Never let a judge or a boss push this crap onto you, they're the offending party if they're taking responsibility for preventing an alternative coming true, the criminal offender going to jail or whatever.



Drain Todger said:


> Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.


Its always one hand washing the other.  The snake oil salesman, the female voter, the NGOs and think tanks, and the media.  The NGOs and think tanks convince the media of an abstract utopian moral injustice (Equity in prison populations) who in turn manufacture the consent of the female voter to fixing the social problem somehow with tax money being spent on pure snake oil by the local snake oil salesman (Diversity and Inclusion Officer) who just showed up with the right accreditation.  Only the media & the NGOs are the universal actors operating on a national level, the other two are just local actors.

Its tough to pick who is destroying society alone as the media are just ignorant drug pushers, the NGOs are a secular priesthood who believe their dowsing rod bullshit, the snake oil salesmen are each just trying to pay off their bills and often are fired without even breaking even with the cost of the accreditation process, and the female voter is per usual just doing the best she can.  The best the poor dear can.

I would probably cane the media, jail the snake oil salesmen, fine the female voter for making a public nuisance, and publicly torture and execute the NGOs.


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## Shroom King (May 28, 2021)

Eric Clanton, the Bike-Lock Bandit, taught a class on Restorative Justice at his college. That should give you an indication on how bullshit it is.


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## Johan Schmidt (May 28, 2021)

Restorative justice would only work in a very high trust, high in group preference and small population society. Also known as a cult. 

In any reasonably sized society criminality isn't the result of 'muh feelings' or 'muh oppression'. It's because criminals are socially incompetent tossers with no regard for anyone but themselves that reject authority and enjoy exercising petty power over others. Criminals are not victims, they are victimisers.


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## DiscoRodeo (May 28, 2021)

Johan Schmidt said:


> Restorative justice would only work in a very high trust, high in group preference and small population society. Also known as a cult.
> 
> In any reasonably sized society criminality isn't the result of 'muh feelings' or 'muh oppression'. It's because criminals are socially incompetent tossers with no regard for anyone but themselves that reject authority and enjoy exercising petty power over others. Criminals are not victims, they are victimisers.


I think it could work outside of a cult, all misuse besides.

The way restorative justice should work is similar to something like King of the Hill or some old ideal sitcom (as unrealistic as the allegory is). 

You smash up your neighbors fence, your father catches you, whips your ass, then makes you restore that fence and more by volunteering every weekend for several weeks. Thats the basic concept, though when you get to things like violent crimes, drug offenses, or sexual crimes- the question really becomes how can you restore things to the way they were before, or can you even do that?

In a lot of cases, you simply can't. 

What should happen is that people still try, though in the US, what that usually equates to is a long jail sentence where people are going to probably join a gang and fuck around, maybe some community service, and multiple holes in society. 

I'm for restorative justice when it comes to small things. I'm for restorative justice for non-violent and non-sexual crimes. When it comes to violent crimes, if there is a way to restore society to what it was before that can be fair too. 

The issue with restorative justice is it becomes conflated with rehabilitation of criminals into society, but completely throwing the victim under the bus. I think rehabilitating criminals is an important enough step, but not at the point that the victim of crimes is simply forgotten about. You wreck my fence? Build it again, and then some. You kill my daughter in a car crash? I don't know if that can ever be restored, but I know that when this happens to people, and they get off light with community service or a shallow sentence because "but theyre a victim too", it makes the situation much worse for the victim. 

If there are ways to restore or at least better where people wind up, I'm all down for that; but its probably going to be a case by case issue, and most times, the best thing people can often do is grit their teeth, and bear their full sentence.


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## Adolphin (Jun 1, 2021)

Criminal traits can have a genetic predisposition, or because of some hardwired psychopathic tendency (for example, because of a very nasty childhood). It is pointless to try to reform them. Ideally, most violent murderers are executed.


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## Save Goober (Jun 1, 2021)

DiscoRodeo said:


> I don't know if that can ever be restored, but I know that when this happens to people, and they get off light with community service or a shallow sentence because "but theyre a victim too", it makes the situation much worse for the victim.


Personally, I think for violent crime,  Hammurabi was right and the conspiracy theorist in me thinks all the "an eye for the eye makes the whole world blind!" uwu is spread around by the sociopaths who control society so that they can never truly be held accountable. 
For smaller crimes, I like the idea of restoring society to the way it was before.


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## Bonesjones (Jun 3, 2021)

melty said:


> Personally, I think for violent crime,  Hammurabi was right and the conspiracy theorist in me thinks all the "an eye for the eye makes the whole world blind!" uwu is spread around by the sociopaths who control society so that they can never truly be held accountable.
> For smaller crimes, I like the idea of restoring society to the way it was before.


The old Conan the Barbarian movie had it right, the power of people is stronger than that of steel. When people abuse it, the only choice is to chop off their heads. Notice Thulsa Doom didn't usurp King Osrick by attacking him, he just brainwashed his daughter. It's about the most important movie besides They Live.


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