# Is the Roman Catholic Church a product of Babylonian mystery religion?



## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 9, 2018)

Upon researching Abrahamic religion, I was led to a certain book, called The Two Babylons, written by one Alexander Hislop. This book was very influential in several Protestant and Anti-Catholic circles, for basically "proving" that the the Roman Catholic Church is the reinvention of a mystery religion founded in Babylon (in the Tower of Babel) by the biblical character Nimrod and his (legendary) Lydian-Babylonian wife Semiramis, with addition of their son, Tammuz, in a Father-Mother-Son Trinity of deified rulers.

From the hyperdiffusion of this Babylonian Mystery Religion comes every pagan mythology, religion (especially mystery religion), and cult of the ancient world. From ancient Mesopotamian religion, to ancient Greek religion, to ancient Egyptian religion, to ancient Roman religion, to Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and every other belief system in the world, you can trace their foundational basis back to the original Babylonian Mystery Religion. Judaism and Protestant Christianity, of course, are (more or less) exempt from this all-pervasive Babylonian influence; _they *aren't*_ pagan in nature.

All of the gods of those religions are fundamentally based on their prototypes: the figures of Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz. Satan and his demons had a hand in this too, by the way.

Alexander Hislop then argues that the overwhelming majority, if not _every single one_ of the rites, symbols, and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church can be traced directly back to the original Babylonian Mystery Religion. From Lent, to Easter, to Christmas, to even the symbol of the Cross, they are _all_ Babylonian in nature.

TL;DR Catholicism is a conspiracy created by two bumblefuck rulers and their son in a random city to control people that somehow worked too well and became a world religion. This conspiracy was so good it basically created every other non-Judeo-Protestant Christian religion as well.

So I ask, is there anything true about _The Two Babylons_?

I especially ask because one Ralph Woodrow became this hypothesis's greatest proponent, writing a book, named _Babylon Mystery Religion_ based on it. _Babylon Mystery Religion_ became even more popular than _The Two Babylons_ itself, but was taken out of circulation by Woodrow himself when he reread _The Two Babylons _and considered the text to be bullshit. He wrote a new book, titled _The Babylon Connection?_, just to refute _The Two Babylons_.

And now...


Spoiler: Resources



The webpages where you can read and/or download _The Two Babylons_ (in its various editions):

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/
http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/00index.htm
http://www.giveshare.org/babylon/








						The two Babylons; or, The papal worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife : Hislop, Alexander : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

The metadata below describe the original scanning. Follow the All Files: HTTP link in the View the book box to the left to find XML files that contain more...



					archive.org
				











						The two Babylons; or, The papal worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife: Or the ... : Alexander Hislop : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

Book digitized by Google from the library of Oxford University and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.



					archive.org
				











						The two Babylons, or, The papal worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife : with sixty-one woodcut illustrations from Nineveh, Babylon, Egypt, Pompeii, &c : Hislop, Alexander : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					





					archive.org
				



https://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/
http://www.johnrothacker.org/Article.html
https://hotk.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/babylon-mystery-religion.pdf
http://www.ldolphin.org/PDFs/The_Two_Babylons-Alexander_Hislop.pdf
http://www.freepdf.info/index.php?post/2012/07/30/Hislop-Alexander-The-two-Babylons
http://www.biblerays.com/uploads/8/0/4/2/8042023/thetwobabylonsor00hisluoft.pdf
https://www.scribd.com/doc/31691928...der-Hislop-lonsThe-Full-Hislop-2012-04-14-pdf
https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-two-babylons-e22635529.html
http://cbcg.org/franklin/The-Two-Babylons.pdf
https://archive.org/details/theTwoBabylons/page/n0
https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_GooEAAAAQAAJ
http://www.seedofabraham.net/The Full Hislop-2012-04-14.pdf
http://www.centrowhite.org.br/files/ebooks/antigos/The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship - Alexander Hislop.pdf
https://archive.org/details/twobabylonsorpa00hislgoog
https://www.onthecheese.com/seekerworld/two-babylons/the-two-babylons-alexander-hislop-1916.pdf
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/THE_TWO_BABYLONS.pdf
https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-two-babylons-1853-alexander-hislop-e11751548.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/23-the-two-babylonsthe-full-hislop-e32036831.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/alexander-hislops-the-two-babylons-ultimate-bible-reference-e15044287.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-two-babylons-e33038530.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/two-babylons-e57848486.html
http://www.cuttingedge.org/TheTwoBabylons.pdf
http://sheldonemrylibrary.com/ReferenceReadingRoom/The_Two_Babylons.pdf
https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/2babindx.htm
https://reluctant-messenger.com/2-babylons.htm


			Contents
		



			https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_two_babylons.pdf
		


The webpages where you can read and/or download _Babylon Mystery Religion_ (in its various editions):

http://www.biblicallifestyleseminars.org/uploads/CI00046_Babylon_Mystery_Religion_R_Woodrow_1970.pdf
https://archive.org/details/Babylon-Mystery-Religion-Ralph-Woodrow








						Babylon Mystery Religion By Ralph Woodrow : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
					

Babylon Mystery Religion by ralph woodrow



					archive.org
				



https://www.pdfdrive.com/babylon-mystery-religion-e19788032.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/babylon-mystery-religion-e19073107.html
https://www.scribd.com/document/335479238/Babylon-Mystery-Religion-Ralph-Woodrow-pdf
https://www.scribd.com/document/55407263/Babylon-Mystery-Religion-Ralph-Woodrow-1966
https://www.ubm1.org/babylon-woodrow.pdf
https://kupdf.net/download/babylon-...woodrow-1966-pdf_58cc4362dc0d60ba13c346a3_pdf
https://kupdf.net/download/babylon-mystery-religion-ralph-woodrow-1966_5a6338a9e2b6f52b2884aea3_pdf
https://the-eye.eu/public/concen.org/01052018_updates/Ralph Woodrow - Babylon Mystery Religion - Ancient and Modern (1981) pdf.pdf
https://www.pdfdrive.com/mystery-babylon-book-e20395722.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/babylon-mystery-religion-e19788032.html
https://www.pdfdrive.com/babylon-mystery-religion-e19073107.html


			http://www.johnrothacker.org/downloads/Babylon%20Mystery%20Religion%20(ralph%20woodrow,%201966)%20web%20copy.pdf
		



Books whose information or arguments are based (at least in part) on _The Two Babylons_ (in online and/or PDF form):

http://come-out-of-her-my-people.com/


			Yada Yahweh - Genesis - Bare'syth - Beginning
		

http://www.johnrothacker.org/downloads/Babylon Mystery Religion Summary.pdf


			https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/8d6be3a7/files/uploaded/MBG_Vol_1_Text_A5_8SwCs3y1R3SMeZ9aBE5t.pdf
		


Webpages whose information or arguments are based (at least in part) on _The Two Babylons_:

http://ldolphin.org/semir.html
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf.../RTD/cgg/ID/13148/Nimrod-Semiramis-Tammuz.htm
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/origin_of_babylon_sun_worship.html
https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com...ed/MBG_Vol_1_Text_A5_8SwCs3y1R3SMeZ9aBE5t.pdf
http://mystery-babylon.org/index.html
https://www.onthecheese.com/seekerworld/two-babylons/index.html

Webpages and books defending _The Two Babylons_:

http://www.british-israel.ca/two babylons.htm
http://seedofabraham.net/Avrams-Critique-of-Woodrow.pdf

Webpages and books critical of _The Two Babylons_:

https://sites.google.com/site/christadelphianinfo/articles/apologetics/dbhislop
http://btdf.joomla.redd.com.au/forums/topic/1006-the-two-babylons/
https://web.archive.org/web/20051126213913/http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911chap.asp
http://www.ukapologetics.net/1hislopbaby.html
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ct_babylon.html
https://www.godfire.net/Elwin/two_babylons.htm
https://www.onthecheese.com/seekerworld/two-babylons/two-babylons-debunked.html
https://www.onthecheese.com/seekerworld/two-babylons/book-review.html
http://musicians4freedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/The-Mystery-Babylon-Debate-Handbook.pdf
http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/alexander-hislop’s-“-two-babylons”-babylon-mystery-religion
http://web.archive.org/web/20160314...hwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html
http://usminc.org/babbleon.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20110912012740/http://www.catholic.com:80/thisrock/1999/9911chap.asp
http://en.believethesign.com/index.php/The_Two_Babylons_by_Alexander_Hislop
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/arti...wo-babylons-by-the-rev-alexander-hislop-edinb

Arguments critical of The Two Babylons are summarized here:

https://www.conservapedia.com/''The_Two_Babylons''
https://www.deeperwatersapologetics.com/?p=9502
http://xhwa.blogspot.com/2008/12/babylon-connection.html
https://fundamentalbaptistchristian.blogspot.com/2015/01/alexander-hislops-two-babylons-is-not.html


Will update the spoiler as time goes on.


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## REGENDarySumanai (Oct 9, 2018)

Christianity is very closely modeled off of Zoroastrianism. Angra Mainyu is Satan, while Ahura Mazda is God.


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## cypocraphy (Oct 9, 2018)

Christianity was mixed with Paganism before the schism anyway.


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## ES 148 (Oct 9, 2018)

has jack chick been speaking to you from beyond the grave again


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## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 9, 2018)

Vrakks said:


> has jack chick been speaking to you from beyond the grave again


No, but Joseph Smith has.


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## Cthulu (Oct 9, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> And now...
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Resources
> ...


No audiobooks? You actually expect me to read this shit? Smfh


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## Y2K Baby (Oct 9, 2018)

Cthulhu said:


> No audiobooks? You actually expect me to read this shit? Smfh


Audio books are low T.


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## Tranhuviya (Oct 9, 2018)

All religions prefigure Christ in some way, so it's only to be expected.


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## Cthulu (Oct 9, 2018)

Y2K Baby said:


> Audio books are low T.


You're low T you fucking faggot


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## Red Hood (Oct 9, 2018)

I am...skeptical.


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## Save the Loli (Oct 9, 2018)

No, it's actually just the old Roman Empire's bureaucracy detached from the dead Roman state (by the barbarians who conquered Rome and didn't need the rest of the Empire) and given a Christian flavor. That's why the Pope is the Pontifex Maximus (a title of the Roman Emperor), who is the head of the curia (just like the curia in Ancient Rome), and rules from a basilica (just like where the Roman Emperor spoke to the people). They also use a ton of other Roman terminology like "diocese", "vicar", "legate", etc.


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## ThePurpleProse (Oct 9, 2018)

Tranhuviya said:


> All religions prefigure Christ in some way, so it's only to be expected.


There's still no evidence that Jesus even existed as a physical human, but since Catholicism oppose muslims, Deus Vult all the way disregarding the real origins.


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## Y2K Baby (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> There's still no evidence that Jesus even existed as a physical human,


It is a funny post because you are wrong.


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## Tranhuviya (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> There's still no evidence that Jesus even existed as a physical human


Josephus wrote about both him and John the Baptist. He is also one of the most reliable contemporary sources on the region at the time. Try not being a .


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## ThePurpleProse (Oct 9, 2018)

Tranhuviya said:


> Josephus wrote about both him and John the Baptist. He is also one of the most reliable contemporary sources on the region at the time. Try not being a .


Sorry nigger, but I can write an essay about you, if I don't even preserve a single cell from your body you may as well be an invention, someone so important as Jesus was on his time don't you think anyone out there would have snatched at least a finger?

Also could be that Jesus was some sort of a screen, I mean if you shitposted on that time and decide with your friends to fuck up with the Roman Empire forum, you would create a fake burner account with fake name and all that shit, would be very understandable to do so.


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## Cthulu (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> Sorry nigger, but I can write an essay about you, if I don't even preserve a single cell from your body you may as well be an invention, someone so important as Jesus was on his time don't you think anyone out there would have snatched at least a finger?
> 
> Also could be that Jesus was some sort of a screen, I mean if you shitposted on that time and decide with your friends to fuck up with the Roman Empire forum, you would create a fake burner account with fake name and all that shit, would be very understandable to do so.


Go home Randy you're drunk


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## Y2K Baby (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> Sorry nigger, but I can write an essay about you, if I don't even preserve a single cell from your body you may as well be an invention, someone so important as Jesus was on his time don't you think anyone out there would have snatched at least a finger?
> 
> Also could be that Jesus was some sort of a screen, I mean if you shitposted on that time and decide with your friends to fuck up with the Roman Empire forum, you would create a fake burner account with fake name and all that shit, would be very understandable to do so.


https://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html
Read a book, nigga. Read a book.

Have you seriously not heard of the Shroud of Turin?


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## Tranhuviya (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> Sorry nigger, but I can write an essay about you, if I don't even preserve a single cell from your body you may as well be an invention, someone so important as Jesus was on his time don't you think anyone out there would have snatched at least a finger?


What the fuck? Do you genuinely believe that bone, not to mention flesh and all the other tissues, would survive that long? The relics of saints have only survived for so long because they were so meticulously cared for. And if you buy into the story, there is a very good reason that there is no body.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 9, 2018)

You're a Catholic @Cosmos, so get in here.



Cthulhu said:


> No audiobooks? You actually expect me to read this shit? Smfh


You think conspiracy theories are popular enough to have audiobooks?

No, you have to _work_ to absorb and comprehend this shit.


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## Cosmos (Oct 9, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> You're a Catholic @Cosmos, so get in here.



I've been working all day, I'm not in the mood for a theological debate


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## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> Sorry nigger, but I can write an essay about you, if I don't even preserve a single cell from your body you may as well be an invention, someone so important as Jesus was on his time don't you think anyone out there would have snatched at least a finger?
> 
> Also could be that Jesus was some sort of a screen, I mean if you shitposted on that time and decide with your friends to fuck up with the Roman Empire forum, you would create a fake burner account with fake name and all that shit, would be very understandable to do so.


We don't have the preserved body of Julius Caesar, but nobody is denying that _he _exists.


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## nanny911 (Oct 9, 2018)

Calling the Roman Catholic church a pagan cult is where fundamentalist Protestants and euphoric atheists meet in the middle.


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## 1864897514651 (Oct 9, 2018)

This is so underwhelmingly stupid. People have gone to greater lengths to break the Ten Commandments than write a moronic book that nobody of any importance will read. See the protestant schismatic sect, for example. Martin Luther wanted to break the Sixth Commandment with his concubine, Katharina von Bora, and so to do so, he schismed with the True Church and dragged hundreds of millions of human souls into Hell with him because of his professed heresies.

Who are these silly men, Alexander Hislop and Ralph Woodrow? I must say they are rather unimportant, and I do not care for their excuses to break the Law of God and remain outside of the Church.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 9, 2018)

1864897514651 said:


> This is so underwhelmingly stupid. People have gone to greater lengths to break the Ten Commandments than write a moronic book that nobody of any importance will read. See the protestant schismatic sect, for example. Martin Luther wanted to break the Sixth Commandment with his concubine, Katharina von Bora, and so to do so, he schismed with the True Church and dragged hundreds of millions of human souls into Hell with him because of his professed heresies.
> 
> Who are these silly men, Alexander Hislop and Ralph Woodrow? I must say they are rather unimportant, and I do not care for their excuses to break the Law of God and remain outside of the Church.


This pro-Catholic propaganda sounds very autistic.


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## OhGoy (Oct 9, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> This pro-Catholic propaganda sounds very autistic.


nobody talks shit on number man and gets away with it 

real talk tho: christianity is just a means for the jews to brainwash the gentiles


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## Zaragoza (Oct 9, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> There's still no evidence that Jesus even existed as a physical human, but since Catholicism oppose muslims, Deus Vult all the way disregarding the real origins.


You can still be a fedora tipping faggot and still agree that Jesus historically existed.


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## ThePurpleProse (Oct 10, 2018)

Zaragoza said:


> You can still be a fedora tipping faggot and still agree that Jesus historically existed.


There's not enough proof, went stfu mode because the thread is not about this, do the same faggot instead of bitching because muh geezus.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 10, 2018)

Zaragoza said:


> You can still be a fedora tipping faggot and still agree that Jesus historically existed.


So what do you think about _The Two Babylons_?


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## Y2K Baby (Oct 10, 2018)

ThePurpleProse said:


> There's not enough proof, went stfu mode because the thread is not about this, do the same faggot instead of bitching because muh geezus.


There is enough proof. What? Do you need a fucking picture of someone who basically lived in prehistorical times? Stop being a mongoloid.


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## nanny911 (Oct 10, 2018)

I can foresee this thread being locked


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## AnOminous (Oct 10, 2018)

Quit shitposting you idiots, this is supposed to be DEEP thoughts!


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## Iwasamwillbe (Oct 10, 2018)

AnOminous said:


> Quit shitposting you idiots, this is supposed to be DEEP thoughts!


So what do you think about _The Two Babylons_?


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## AnOminous (Oct 10, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> So what do you think about _The Two Babylons_?



I don't.


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## millais (Oct 10, 2018)

Did the Papist clergy inherit their kid-diddling proclivities from the Babylonians, too? Or did they come up with that all by themselves?


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## PS1gamenwatch (Oct 10, 2018)

Don’t most faiths take from other faiths? I mean doesn’t Judaism have elements from Egyptian mythology, Roman from Greek faiths and Islam absorbed a lot from Christianity and Near Eastern faiths?


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## Save the Loli (Oct 10, 2018)

nanny911 said:


> Calling the Roman Catholic church a pagan cult is where fundamentalist Protestants and euphoric atheists meet in the middle.



It's Christian-flavored paganism. Not very Biblical. Pope = Emperor, God = Jupiter (or Zeus or Odin etc).



millais said:


> Did the Papist clergy inherit their kid-diddling proclivities from the Babylonians, too? Or did they come up with that all by themselves?


Dunno about Babylon but the Romans liked fucking little boys almost as much as the Greeks did. Makes sense the Roman Catholic Church might take after that too.


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## Gym Leader Elesa (Oct 10, 2018)

Daily reminder that Catholicism has always been right about everything and has never been disproven about anything once. People who aren't Catholic ate just looking for excuses to rape and murder. 

Also Protestants are pagan heathens who don't bathe.


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## AnOminous (Oct 10, 2018)

Gym Leader Elesa said:


> Daily reminder that Catholicism has always been right about everything and has never been disproven about anything once. People who aren't Catholic ate just looking for excuses to rape and murder.
> 
> Also Protestants are pagan heathens who don't bathe.



Also, enjoy having no apostolic succession, heretic bitches.


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## HG 400 (Oct 10, 2018)

Jews and Protestants go to hell.


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## FI 665 (Oct 10, 2018)

Fagnasty said:


> Jews and Protestants go to hell.


So do fags and beta male feminists.


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## HG 400 (Oct 10, 2018)

pyrrhic said:


> So do fags and beta male feminists.



So do qt demonesses.


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## Slowboat to China (Oct 10, 2018)

If Catholics are shitty Babylonians, doesn't that just make Protestants even shittier Babylonians? They're Babylonians who couldn't hack it and decided to water it down. Now these lads are obviously bitter that they don't get the fun of fancy robes, incense and neat rituals, so they're trying to go "YEAH WELL YOUR MOM'S PAGAN."

In all seriousness, though, this is an old argument. The Catholic church is heavily Roman-influenced, thanks in part to Rome being the dominant world power at the time, and cribbed a lot of Rome's terminology and structure. There's a reason the predominant language of the church was Latin right up to modern times. While pagan influences certainly did creep in (when festivals ended up being celebrated, what they were called, reinvention of local pagan gods into saints to make the idea palatable to the woad-wearing populace), to argue that Catholicism has more in common with Greek, Egyptian or Babylonian religion while Protestantism has somehow reinvented itself into a pure, non-pagan form is just silly. That would make Protestantism the fruit of the poisonous tree.

Anyone remember that thing about the pope's hat being a symbol of Dagon?


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## Regu (Oct 10, 2018)

I swear everybody forgets that Orthodox is a thing and instead screams about either being a fedora tipper, a Protestant or a Catholic.


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## Save the Loli (Oct 11, 2018)

Pretty sure Protestantism is 100% based on the Bible, that's why it doesn't have bullshit like ritual cannibalism, worshipping Jesus' mom, or believing a virgin in a funny hat who claims to be the head of the church (and uses a title of the Roman Emperor for his position) had the ultimate and final say on interpretating the Bible.

Catlickers need them some John Calvin bad.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Dec 23, 2018)

So I have finished reading the Two Babylons: The Full Hislop, a revised edition (and by that I mean showing the full notes, along with some new ones) of The Two Babylons by Hislop cheerleader Avram Yehoshua, and it is some of the most insane shit of all time. I am legitimately surprised anyone took Hislop seriously to begin with.

First, Hislop will, as one put it, "make anything of anything". Even the most tenuous similarities in the rites and rituals of two cultures is taken as absolute proof of a deep connection between the two. This is tacked on with the most tortured abuses of etymology imaginable, where even a vague similarity in the words and terms of two languages is displayed as proof of their sameness, irrespective of their own independent linguistic histories.

Secondly, Hislop's understand of pagan mythologies and religious is grossly inadequate to the point of being laughable. To take Hislop's word on it, Osiris is a solar deity, Janus and Chaos are one and the same, and Bacchus is the Pagan Messiah.

And I've almost lost track of how many mythological figures were considered the Father of the Gods. I have seen Janus, Saturn, Jupiter, Bacchus, and even Vulcan all be given this title.

Thirdly, Hislop's statements concerning the relationship between Nimrod, Semiramis, and other entities are severely in conflict with each other. Nimrod is apparently both his own father and son, while Semiramis is Nimrod's, wife, mother, sister, mother _and_ wife, or all of the previous.

Noah has apparently been deified into being Vishnu (nonsense etymology comes again), Shem becomes Set (the Egyptian god of violence) and Python, Cush becomes Hermes, Mercury, Belus, Bel, Janus, Chaos, Horus, Hephaestus, Vulcan, Marduk, etc.

On the etymology itself, almost every term and name is made to mean something completely different than what it actually is. For example, a lot of deity's names apparently mean "the hidden one", such as Saturn, and Osiris's name apparently means "the husband of his mother".

Fun fact: Saturn is also an aspect of Adam, while Astarte an aspect of Eve.

Read this shit for yourself. See if I'm lying.


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## Tranhuviya (Dec 23, 2018)

"Babylonian mystery religion" seems like a bit of misnomer in general. As far I know, _the_ mysteries were a wholly Hellenic thing. If you like, you could draw comparisons between Christ and Sol Invictus. But that is neither here nor there. In fact, it seems that the *idea* of such a Babylonian mystery religion comes from a relatively modern source.

That is 1966's Babylon Mystery Religion. This is an anti-Catholic tract that makes reference to the aforementioned Hislop.


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## Darndirty (Dec 23, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> We don't have the preserved body of Julius Caesar, but nobody is denying that _he _exists.



That's disingenuous though. There are hundreds of contemperory sources about Caesar, what he looked like, what his character was like, actions he took, written by allies and enemies , he even wrote a book the Gallic wars that has survived. There isn't near the same as Jesus ( I'm not denying a religious leader named Jesus in the time period existed, I would debate his divine nature but that's a whole different thing)


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## Iwasamwillbe (Dec 23, 2018)

Darndirty said:


> That's disingenuous though. There are hundreds of contemperory sources about Caesar, what he looked like, what his character was like, actions he took, written by allies and enemies , he even wrote a book the Gallic wars that has survived. There isn't near the same as Jesus ( I'm not denying a religious leader named Jesus in the time period existed, I would debate his divine nature but that's a whole different thing)


It's not though. The poster I was responding to said Jesus didn't exist because we didn't know where his preserved body was.

We also have much contemporary sourcing on the existence of a Yeshua ben Yosef who called himself the Messiah and the Son of Yahweh.


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## Darndirty (Dec 23, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> It's not though. The poster I was responding to said Jesus didn't exist because we didn't know where his preserved body was.
> 
> We also have much contemporary sourcing on the existence of a Yeshua ben Yosef who called himself the Messiah and the Son of Yahweh.



It is though.  Here's the problem regarding Jesus, Joseph , yeshua, or one of the main problems. There was a TON of Yeshuas living in Galilee at the time and a whole bunch were the sons of a Joseph both were extremely common names. There was only one ceasar. Which makes finding info on him significantly easier than Jesus.  I'm not saying a Jesus (or the jesus) didn't exist but tracking him is infinitely harder than a man as famous in the known world as a ceaser.


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## Emperor Julian (Dec 26, 2018)

No it's a hybridisation of Greek philosophy, Gnosticism, the intellectual shift towards monotheism in late antiquety, messiac movements and Judaic mythology stapled together by the iron fist of Roman imperial rule which then slowly evolved over 1700 years while fragmenting into a multiple sects due to continued cultural, political and social developments.....just like the Protestants, Orthodox's and those freaks who live out in the woods because they think the TV is how satan watches the planet.
 Anyone who tries to compare one Christian sect as more pagan than others knows so little of their faith that they can be ignored. Alexander Hislop was a fuckwitted crank whose sections on Semiramis was pulled straight from his ass. She was never portrayed as Nimrods consort nor as the mother of harlots. This attempt to wedge them both as some sort of universal paganism/catholic is stillborn.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Dec 26, 2018)

Emperor Julian said:


> She was never portrayed as Nimrods consort nor as the mother of harlots.


The Hislopian argument against this was that Nimrod is Ninus, a purported ancient king of Nineveh, who Nimrod in the Bible was said to have founded too. Ninus was the husband of Semiramis in certain accounts.


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## Emperor Julian (Dec 27, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> The Hislopian argument against this was that Nimrod is Ninus, a purported ancient king of Nineveh, who Nimrod in the Bible was said to have founded too. Ninus was the husband of Semiramis in certain accounts.



Those accounts come from the Greeks 400 hundred years after he'd have been alive, their are no primary accounts which confirm his existence . He appears to be stapled together from at least 2 kings and an ancient war god whose worship proceeds his supposed rule by at least a 1000 years.

Pulling the thread further Semiramis herself appears to a bastardized version of Shammaramat so arguing her as the whore of babylon who founded paganism/the catholic church is the equivalent of  using King Arthurs stories in relation to Romano british warlords resistance to the Saxon invasions. Specifically the ones with magic and 12th century knights.

So what you have is a misinterpretation of Old testament mythology (nimrod has no consort in the account) which was possibly bastardized from Greek records which where in turn incorrect.
 This whole theory is stillborn. I'm not even trying very hard and it isnt my area of expertise.  Someone with a genuine passion for Assyrian/pagan history would have this idea over the table.


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## eternal dog mongler (Dec 27, 2018)

Emperor Julian said:


> No it's a hybridisation of Greek philosophy, Gnosticism, the intellectual shift towards monotheism in late antiquety, messiac movements and Judaic mythology stapled together by the iron fist of Roman imperial rule which then slowly evolved over 1700 years while fragmenting into a multiple sects due to continued cultural, political and social developments.....just like the Protestants, Orthodox's and those freaks who live out in the woods because they think the TV is how satan watches the planet..



Not really Gnosticism, per se. Christianity and the Gnostic sects (and also Manicheanism) all had roots in a sort of Platonic spirit/body dualism connected to Judaism via Philo of Alexandria. Paul and the author of John both seem to be acquainted with Philo. Marcion and the Gnostics took that idea, furthered it to the point where all fleshly life was wrong and painful...and then became weird classical mall goths moping around about the Demiurge.


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## Emperor Julian (Dec 27, 2018)

eternal dog mongler said:


> Not really Gnosticism, per se. Christianity and the Gnostic sects (and also Manicheanism) all had roots in a sort of Platonic spirit/body dualism connected to Judaism via Philo of Alexandria. Paul and the author of John both seem to be acquainted with Philo. Marcion and the Gnostics took that idea, furthered it to the point where all fleshly life was wrong and painful...and then became weird classical mall goths moping around about the Demiurge.



Yeah i kept it pretty vague because it's actually quite hard to nail down pre-constantine Christianity, for every jewish mystic or roman philosopher looking for answers their's a eschatological loon or dumb peasent who jumble it all together.  Their is a endemic desire to escape the world to some sort of higher one which saturates the ancient world. Nobody seems to really want to accept reality as it is, which is forgivable considering how brutal the period was.  I'd argue that Gnosticism shapes Christianity since the religion is heavily influenced by the idea's of two spiritiual powers locked in combat for reality. It just tries to integrate Monotheism into the idea.

When you think on it Christianity Satan is a nerfed version of the Demiurge because the idea of another God doesnt mesh well with Judaic mythology.

Personally It should be noted I loathe the idea of reality as a prison and loathe anything which encourages this idea so this might bias me.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Dec 28, 2018)

Actually, many different Pagan faiths (Greek, Roman, Celtic, Nordic etc.) and in parts, Hinduism, come from the religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Dec 28, 2018)

Webby's Boyfriend said:


> Actually, many different Pagan faiths (Greek, Roman, Celtic, Nordic etc.) and in parts, Hinduism, come from the religion of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.


Yeah, in the same way all religions come from Grug saying "Not me fault me drop club on foot, Sky Grug make Grug do it!"


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## Iwasamwillbe (Dec 29, 2018)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> Yeah, in the same way all religions come from Grug saying "Not me fault me drop club on foot, Sky Grug make Grug do it!"




Also there are indigenous religions in the Americas that developed and evolved completely independently of the Dyeus Phater (literally "Sky Father") cult.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Dec 29, 2018)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> Also there are indigenous religions in the Americas that developed and evolved completely independently of the Dyeus Phater (literally "Sky Father") cult.


All religions ultimately trace back to primitive hunter-gatherers in Africa trying to understand the world around them from a historical/anthropological perspective.  Calm down.


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## Iwasamwillbe (Dec 29, 2018)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> All religions ultimately trace back to primitive hunter-gatherers in Africa trying to understand the world around them from a historical/anthropological perspective.  Calm down.


I am calm.


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## wylfım (Dec 29, 2018)

How is this thread still alive. Interesting to watch, but I'm shocked.
Anyways, to paraphrase a friend, all these attempts at grouping religions comes from an innate human desire to classify. There is no way to classify this shit. It's a bottomless hole that just keeps getting wider and wider.
Relevant XKCD.


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## 1864897514651 (Jan 6, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> [redacted]



I knew your rhetoric sounded familiar. Can I just say: I told you so.


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