# Is gender identity real?



## Mars Attacks! (Oct 20, 2016)

I'm going to powerlevel slightly in this thread, but it's relevant to the topic and my own experience has led me to believe that gender identity doesn't actually exist.  Let's look at the popular definitions of gender identity, first:

1. Gender roles ("I'm a girl because I like pink." "I'm genderfluid because I like dresses some days and suits other days.")
This one is obviously bullshit.  Gender norms aren't innately part of being male or female.  They vary between cultures and time, a girl doesn't stop being a girl because she decided not to wear makeup that day, drag queens dress like women but they aren't female or trans women.  It's so weird to me that a lot of trans people denounce gender roles, while at the same time upholding them to the point of believing that someone who doesn't completely conform to male or female stereotypes is a third gender.

2. The presence of gender dysphoria ("I have a male brain in a female body." "I'm trans because having a penis feels wrong.")
Here's where things get a little more complicated.  There have been studies done on brain sex in trans people that have found that their brains have more in common with the sex they identify as.  However, other neurological research shows that brains have plasticity, meaning their shape is not innate and changes depending on other physical or environmental factors.  I've been on hormones and can anecdotally tell you that the way I think and feel changed a lot.  Even if a person isn't on hormones, if they are persistently living their life as if they were the opposite sex, their brain could potentially change shape and function to reflect that.
Dysphoria is the feeling that your body or parts of it are "wrong," which in trans people can manifest as discomfort with or hatred of sexed traits such as broad shoulders or an hourglass shape.  But how do you differentiate between a trans man who wants his breasts reduced/removed and a cis woman who wants the same thing?  How about a man who wants plastic surgery to make his face look more feminine versus a trans woman who wants the same thing?  What about someone who has dysphoria but chooses to find ways other than transition to cope with it?  The only difference between these people, and the only definition of gender identity left, is whether or not they "identify" as trans.

3. Identity ("This is just the way I feel, man.")
The problem with this definition is that it's circular.  "I am X because I identify as X, which I identify as because I am X."  It's essentially a faith-based definition.  It can't be proven or disproven because it's a feeling that you just "know."  Similar to how a religious person can just "know" that God is looking out for them despite having no evidence.

Sex is a different matter because it actually exists; trans activists love to use intersex people as a token to prove that it doesn't, but they are a tiny minority.  Saying sex isn't real because of intersex people is like saying that because some people are born blind, it's wrong to say that humans can see.  I consider myself gender critical/gender abolitionist, and I feel like the thoughts I have are not that far off from popular gender theory.  I agree that the binary system of assigning behaviors to sexes isn't a good thing.  The difference lies in believing that the intangible concept of gender exists, and that every gender needs a label.  I don't think creating more "gender boxes" solves anything, society should just drop the expectation of things being "for men" or "for women" except when it's actually relevant based on their biology.

Thoughts?


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## Bassomatic (Oct 20, 2016)

Boy 
Girl
Mentally ill
Other than that you are just trying to cover up you fall under option 3.


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## lurk_moar (Oct 21, 2016)

Sex and gender aren't even the same thing. Sex is between your legs, and gender is between your ears.

I've always been a tomboy. I would say that I'm more gender fluid switching between femme, demigirl, and androgynous. I am certainly not a cis female. I will stay the sex that I am even though I sometimes suffer from  dysphoria especial the concerning the breasts and penis envy.


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## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 21, 2016)

Bassomatic said:


> Boy
> Girl
> Mentally ill
> Other than that you are just trying to cover up you fall under option 3.


Sometimes I think we spend so much time here looking at the extreme cases of insanity that are our lolcows, it can be easy to lose perspective of the fact that not everyone in the world must be either "normal" or batshit.


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## Henry Bemis (Oct 21, 2016)

The world has concocted stranger things than a physiological/biochemical mix-up.


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## Intelligent Calcium (Oct 21, 2016)

Gender isn't real so far as it only exists in people's minds. There can't be an objective truth to it, because we can't observe it. But it's still "real" to us and the influence it has on people is what can be observed. 
Like art, the meaning of gender can change a lot depending on what society you live in and when the society changes, so can the meaning of art or gender. However, both aren't completely disconnected from reality. Art is linked to the natural sense of aesthetics human beings possess and gender is linked to biological sex. Just like art as a concept is flexible enough to encompass many different styles and tastes, gender can come in many different varieties. You can be a feminine man or a masculine woman and that should have no impact on your value as a human being. I don't know enough about intersex people to comment on them.

I'm on board with people transitioning if presenting as the gender linked to their biological sex prevents them from finding happiness in life, as long as they do it under the supervision of trained medical experts. I think as long as the experts gave their okay and the person is well-adjusted mentally, it is only polite to go along, since for them it's either this or a life of unhappiness at this point. 
I'm absolutely not on board with people "changing" their gender on a whim to keep up with current trends and to have an excuse to yell at people for misgendering them.

These days, it seems a lot of people who have completely unrelated mental health issues self-diagnose and then brute force their way towards cheap hormones and a chob job, only to find out that this wasn't the magical band-aid they have been looking for. I think these people should be protected from themselves, but the current political climate is very quick to label this type of concern as transphobia, when those people where never trans to begin with. 5 years or so ago they would have self-diagnosed as autistic instead, which is a lot easier to come back from.

And this is just a personal observation, but on average FtMs seem way better adjusted than MtFs.


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## Ntwadumela (Oct 21, 2016)

Honestly? There's only male and female. Any more than that and you're an attention whore/special snowflake.

Roles are given to gender largely because of biological differences: For example, most men tend to be stronger than most women, so many are encouraged to engage in sports that help their strength. There are exceptions to either sex, but they are not the norm and very few in comparison.

As a human "cis" male I'm pretty confident and proud of myself and I support traditional male roles for myself and others. If you're different though I keep an open mind.


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## aerostar88 (Oct 21, 2016)

lurk_moar said:


> Sex and gender aren't even the same thing. Sex is between your legs, and gender is between your ears.
> 
> I've always been a tomboy. I would say that I'm more gender fluid switching between femme, demigirl, and androgynous. I am certainly not a cis female. I will stay the sex that I am even though I sometimes suffer from  dysphoria especial the concerning the breasts and penis envy.


I relate with this a lot. I mean as a gay woman, my androgynous nature can just look like a typical dyke, and I'm relatively fine with that. I don't feel very much like a woman but it isn't a thing that bothers me much anymore.


Spoiler: meh kinda powerlevel



I also have an unrelated condition that makes me more appear more masculine in a few ways, so that definitely doesn't help my femininity. I entertained the idea of myself being trans, so I spoke to a sexologist for a few sessions. It cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had and I ultimately decided against it. I'm just me. No labels, no bullshit, no bawwing for persecution points. Just me being me.


Sometimes I wonder if the idea of being perceived as a "special snowflake" has anything to do with my hesitation about anything trans-related. Regardless, I respect anyone's decision to transition if it positively impacts their mental state. My decision was entirely that, it didn't feel right for my situation. 

And lastly, as most on here have probably said, the troons we see here are in no way indicative of your average person with dysphoria.


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## Megapiss (Oct 21, 2016)

The concept of gender dysphoria doesn't really make sense to me. Trans people seem to believe that everyone has a powerful innate sense of gender, and that having a body that doesn't match  is a fundamentally disturbing experience. But this doesn't seem to be the case for anyone besides trannies. Normal people don't wake up every day and think "I am a man, look at my dick and my hairy chest, time to exemplify my masculinity by drinking beer and watching sports". Internally, people view themselves as _people_ first, not men or women.

If I woke up with different genitals, it would be really inconvenient, but it wouldn't cause an existential crisis and I definitely wouldn't try to replace my normal, functioning genitals with a disturbing facsimile of something else. Likewise, there are many cis people whose body doesn't really match their gender. Women with manfaces and flat chests, and shrimpy babyfaced twinks. This causes them some distress because people find them unattractive, but they don't have the astronomical suicide rates of trannies, and they don't demand taxpayer funded boob jobs or steroids.

I don't buy trans people's claims of having 'a woman's brain in a man's body' (or vice versa) any more than I would believe an anorexic saying they have 'a skeleton's brain in a human's body'. It just seems like a sort of obsessive neurosis.


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## Kled (Oct 21, 2016)

aerostar88 said:


> I relate with this a lot. I mean as a gay woman, my androgynous nature can just look like a typical dyke, and I'm relatively fine with that. I don't feel very much like a woman but it isn't a thing that bothers me much anymore.



This is me as well (minus the gay).  I've always been a tomboy so when I continued seeing tomboy as either being a dyke or trans then it rubbed me the wrong way.  I've been feeling crappy for years about myself because my voice is rather husky and has been since I was a kid.  I used to get teased for it a lot and up until recently I've just accepted that I'm probably some fucking weirdo.

With gender, it's all a societal deal.  It's just that most societies have the same exact definition of what a man and a woman is and should be/do.  Really thinking about it, it's not a bad thing if it's not rigidly enforced.  A man can be a caregiver and not be a breadwinner and a woman can be a breadwinner and a caregiver as well.  Things change over time and yes, rigid gender roles should be broken but nothing overly shattered.  I don't want kids, its a personal preference and I don't want to be married.  Personal preferences should be considered over some rigid system that's considered outdated.  Maybe it's just me, I don't like a lot of change.  I think as long as there's a choice in the matter, then everything's fine.

The whole 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. gender thing is an entirely new can of worms.  That's just people trying to be special and stick it to everyone who "conforms".  It's best to ignore said people.


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## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 21, 2016)

Megapiss said:


> The concept of gender dysphoria doesn't really make sense to me. Trans people seem to believe that everyone has a powerful innate sense of gender, and that having a body that doesn't match  is a fundamentally disturbing experience. But this doesn't seem to be the case for anyone besides trannies. Normal people don't wake up every day and think "I am a man, look at my dick and my hairy chest, time to exemplify my masculinity by drinking beer and watching sports". Internally, people view themselves as _people_ first, not men or women.
> 
> If I woke up with different genitals, it would be really inconvenient, but it wouldn't cause an existential crisis and I definitely wouldn't try to replace my normal, functioning genitals with a disturbing facsimile of something else. Likewise, there are many cis people whose body doesn't really match their gender. Women with manfaces and flat chests, and shrimpy babyfaced twinks. This causes them some distress because people find them unattractive, but they don't have the astronomical suicide rates of trannies, and they don't demand taxpayer funded boob jobs or steroids.
> 
> I don't buy trans people's claims of having 'a woman's brain in a man's body' (or vice versa) any more than I would believe an anorexic saying they have 'a skeleton's brain in a human's body'. It just seems like a sort of obsessive neurosis.


I disagree with this. I think you experience about ten thousand little feelings in the back of your mind on a daily basis. Those feelings get reaffirmed by what you see in the mirror and how other people interact with you, so you never give it any thought beyond that.

Think of it like sexual attraction - I'll let myself get distracted every time I see a good looking lady. It doesn't override whatever else I'm thinking about and I still go about my day like normal. But your brain isn't an IBM. It's thinking about a ton of shit all the time even when you're not deliberately choosing to. My being heterosexual doesn't mean "okay my homework is done, now I will choose to go think about women".

I mean, christ, people who devote years of their lives (all of which includes extensive therapy) and pursue complex surgery aren't all making it up out of nowhere. I don't buy this bullshit some of you push about sexual identity issues all being mental illness,  they said the same shit about homosexuality less than half a century ago. We see a lot of cows on this forum who are crazy enough to ruin their lives in the pursuit of attention and ego, but if you think our cow pen is a representative sample of the population at large you need to take a break from the forum for a day and go have a drink at a bar or something.


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## DangerousGas (Oct 21, 2016)

Male/Female and the _extremely_ rare 'indeterminate'. As in, one in several million at most.


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## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 21, 2016)

DangerousGas said:


> Male/Female and the _extremely_ rare 'indeterminate'. As in, one in several million at most.


You got a stats on that figure?


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## Mars Attacks! (Oct 21, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> I mean, christ, people who devote years of their lives (all of which includes extensive therapy) and pursue complex surgery aren't all making it up out of nowhere. I don't buy this bullshit some of you push about sexual identity issues all being mental illness,  they said the same shit about homosexuality less than half a century ago. We see a lot of cows on this forum who are crazy enough to ruin their lives in the pursuit of attention and ego, but if you think our cow pen is a representative sample of the population at large you need to take a break from the forum for a day and go have a drink at a bar or something.


I don't think people are making it up.  They genuinely believe what they're saying, whether they stick with transition or not.  There's a growing number of people detransitioning though and they get pushed out of their communities because it hurts the narrative.  Sometimes people do transition to avoid other mental issues.


Spoiler: more powerlevel



I've identified as FTM since I was a teenager.  I had the typical "trans childhood;" didn't fit in with the girls, wanted to be a boy as long as I can remember, dysphoria, the whole shebang.  It's been the greater part of a decade since I transitioned and the whole time, I believed I was doing the right thing and self-actualizing the person I was meant to be.  But over the past few months I've started to realize that even though I have a weird mental condition that makes me feel like my body is wrong, it doesn't really follow that I'm actually supposed to be the opposite sex.  I can't "identify as a man" because honestly, I'm not a man, never have been, never will be.  If I were to describe my gender identity now I think "agender" would be the closest thing, but I don't want to use that either because that's still working within the framework of gender.  I'm learning to accept that I'm a female (albeit a very butchy one) but I don't "identify as a woman" either because as I've said, identifying as a gender doesn't make sense.  I can only "identify" as myself, who happens to be female.  That doesn't say anything about my personality or what I like, it's simply something that is.  I wouldn't say I regret what I've done, but I know I'm not being authentic by continuing to live this way.


There aren't a lot of safeguards to prevent people who will decide transition wasn't right for them from accessing it.  I don't know how there could be either, since there's practically no difference in attitude between someone who will be happy with transition and someone who won't.  No therapist I've seen or gender group I've been to encourages any form of questioning; if someone says they're trans, they automatically are, and if you encourage them to explore that feeling instead of just accepting it at face value that makes you a transphobe.


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## DangerousGas (Oct 21, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> You got a stats on that figure?


Nope. Pure conjecture on my part - I just think that gender weirdness at the moment is spectacularly exaggerated by snowflakes.


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## Sperglord Dante (Oct 21, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> You got a stats on that figure?



Depending on your criteria for what's sufficiently away from man or woman they're as comon as 0.1%.

Many of those don't identify as intersex though. They go through with their lives with their 'assigned' sex just fine and only realize they're odd when they can't have children or unrelated medical tests point it out.

People who have some really, really weird shit going on between their legs who challenge the man/woman paradigm are extremely uncommon.


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## Zoobles (Oct 21, 2016)

I believe gender dysphoria exists, but not on the scale it is being practiced in liberal arts colleges. I'm absolutely certain that more than 95% of the time they're a combination of mentally ill, special snowflakes, or self-hating whites trying to shed whatever privilege they may have so that they can join the minorities in declaring war on "cis white scum"

The 5% that are actually legit is likely due a disorder of, or an imbalance of hormones within the endocrine system.


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## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 21, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> No therapist I've seen or gender group I've been to encourages any form of questioning; if someone says they're trans, they automatically are, and if you encourage them to explore that feeling instead of just accepting it at face value that makes you a transphobe.


That's a good counterpoint. The crusade to protect everyone's "right to be right" means it's potentially political/career suicide to ask questions that don't fit with the skeleton narrative.


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## Picklepower (Oct 21, 2016)

How come there seem to be a million more trannies now than in the past? it sounds like a trend in a lot of cases.


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## shibbolethal (Oct 21, 2016)

Picklepower said:


> How come there seem to be a million more trannies now than in the past? it sounds like a trend in a lot of cases.



there were always trannies. it's just that nowadays it's somewhat more socially acceptable, and there are more resources. it's just like how in the 1800s you never hear about any gay people. they were around, but a ton of them were in the closet back then, or didn't even realize that they were gay. now that there's more awareness, people start to understand their own condition! gender dysphoria is a medical condition that can be treated in the same way that any other medical condition can be treated.

granted, there are "special snowflakes", but it's also a matter of the way society is changing. being trans isn't actually fun or cool, and transtrenders give real trans people (who are actually going through hrt and spending thousands of dollars on surgeries to improve their quality of life) a bad name.


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## ShavedSheep (Oct 21, 2016)

no lol


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## Joan Nyan (Oct 21, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> I don't buy this bullshit some of you push about sexual identity issues all being mental illness, they said the same shit about homosexuality less than half a century ago.


Arguing whether or not transexuality (or homosexuality) are mental illnesses is about as productive as arguing whether a tomato is a fruit or vegetable. The definition of mental illness is arbitrary anyway, which is why the DSM changes it every edition.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Oct 21, 2016)

shibbolethal said:


> there were always trannies. it's just that nowadays it's somewhat more socially acceptable, and there are more resources. it's just like how in the 1800s you never hear about any gay people. they were around, but a ton of them were in the closet back then, or didn't even realize that they were gay. now that there's more awareness, people start to understand their own condition! gender dysphoria is a medical condition that can be treated in the same way that any other medical condition can be treated.


Take away the internet and there would be fewer trannies, and that reason is because a lot of trenders would have no real internal concept of transgenerism or dysphoria unless they were made aware of it through pop-culture.
To me, being a woman (my sex, I don't believe in gender) is a mixture of internal components and external stimuli, like living in a female body; people treat me in a certain way, sometimes good sometimes bad, but I doubt it really varies that much from person to person. Everyone's sense of sex is as unique as the person in question. I will never understand how some delusional half-wits can believe that being a woman is about hair flips, the color pink, and ugly child-like dresses;these people obviously live their lives on the surface, so they should not be given any credence in any shape or form.


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## Lachlan Hunter McIntyre (Oct 21, 2016)

I personally think (in my vast ignorance of biology) that gender is to do with levels of oestrogen as compared to testosterone. Someone with more T levels as compared to O will feel more masculine. Usually, males are testosterone-dominant. And when a girl has higher than normal, she tends to exhibit more traditionally masculine interests and leanings. Things like competitiveness, more risky behaviours, more dominant personality traits, etc etc.
meanwhile, boys with higher oestrogen levels than normal tend to have more biologically feminine leanings. Things like more interest in caring for and rearing children, calmness, kindness.

Obviously, boys don't only have testosterone and girls don't only have oestrogen, you need a balance of both to be hormonally balanced. And my observation is that people with gender issues have say close to feminine levels of oestrogen for males and close to masculine levels of testosterone for females.

The problem that seems to be arising is that (particularly younger) people are seeing masculinity and femininity as concrete black and white concepts. So if you aren't completely masculine or feminine, then you have to have dysphoria. And since you obviously won't feel either completely one or the other, they think they're halfway between genders. Which is why they keep coming up with these 'sometimes I'm a boy sometimes I'm a girl' nonsensical genders. Because they don't realise it's completely normal to have some girly or some manly interests. And that it doesn't make you dysphoric or trans to have them.

(Also: tomboys are love, tomboys are life)


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## Aquinas (Oct 21, 2016)

You're all batshit, along with 'gender identity' imo


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## AlanRickmanIsDead (Oct 21, 2016)

Aquinas said:


> You're all batshit, along with 'gender identity' imo


I don't care, I just love fucking shemale bitches.


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## Aquinas (Oct 21, 2016)

AlanRickmanIsDead said:


> I don't care, I just love fucking shemale bitches.


Theres nothing wrong with that


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## cypocraphy (Oct 21, 2016)

The great thing about these trans people is that they rarely bring up the fact that they're trans.


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## ERROR_ENTRY (Oct 22, 2016)

I don't recall ever hearing about 'gender identity' anywhere as little as 5 years ago. Now, more and more people are claiming they are bi-gender, gender-fluid etc. and that's down to it suddenly thriving in popularity. I've heard the term 'transtrenders' being thrown out more often and that sums the whole thing up. Its just a bandwagon for lazy teens and young adults to jump on to make themselves feel more special and persecuted.


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## BurningPewter (Oct 22, 2016)

I personally think that there are innate tastes common to gender and that, for example it's more likely boys to be drawn to GI Joe and girls drawn to sentimental things like Care Bears.  Just personal thought tho.


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## Mimic (Oct 22, 2016)

Considering things I've heard from acquaintances of mine who are diagnosed with dysphoria, fluidity seems like it might have some legitimacy, but that might also just be the dysphoria being weaker or stronger due to hormone changes or something.  I'm not a doctor I don't fucking know, but if that is the case there might be more to it.  Other than that it's male or female.  Gender isn't a fucking Baskin Robbins where there are like 31 and you can try before you buy.

Seriously, if you're a guy who likes girly stuff, congrats you're a girly guy.  If you're a chick that likes dude stuff, congrats you are a tomboy.  You can like different things and not be fucking trans, or whatever fake gender you wanna give yourself.


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## Ariel (Oct 22, 2016)

Trannies are the human form of Manbearpig.


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## Marvin (Oct 22, 2016)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> I don't believe in gender


Well that's just silly. The concept is certainly real.

Like, claiming gender doesn't exist is essentially saying that when people encounter someone who appears to be a man (regardless of genitalia), they have zero preconceived notions about what to expect from that person. It's saying that there are no overarching trends. And that's clearly not the case.


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## Electric Eye (Oct 22, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> 2. The presence of gender dysphoria ("I have a male brain in a female body." "I'm trans because having a penis feels wrong.")
> Here's where things get a little more complicated.  There have been studies done on brain sex in trans people that have found that their brains have more in common with the sex they identify as.  However, other neurological research shows that brains have plasticity, meaning their shape is not innate and changes depending on other physical or environmental factors.  I've been on hormones and can anecdotally tell you that the way I think and feel changed a lot.  Even if a person isn't on hormones, if they are persistently living their life as if they were the opposite sex, their brain could potentially change shape and function to reflect that.
> Dysphoria is the feeling that your body or parts of it are "wrong," which in trans people can manifest as discomfort with or hatred of sexed traits such as broad shoulders or an hourglass shape.  But how do you differentiate between a trans man who wants his breasts reduced/removed and a cis woman who wants the same thing?  How about a man who wants plastic surgery to make his face look more feminine versus a trans woman who wants the same thing?  What about someone who has dysphoria but chooses to find ways other than transition to cope with it?  The only difference between these people, and the only definition of gender identity left, is whether or not they "identify" as trans.



Explain a bit more here, OP. The other two definitions are easy, obvious garbage to counter but this right here is the kicker to the "no gender identity argument."

If there have been scientific studies that show trans people have more in common with the sex they identify as, and even taking into account brain plasticity, why would that mean a gender identity wouldn't exist? And isn't body dysphoria in people (especially with regards to a sexual body part or characteristic) who don't go full-on trans just proving the people who say gender identity is a spectrum right?

Defend your thesis a bit more, OP. Curious about your thoughts.


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## OwO What's This? (Oct 22, 2016)

How Can Gender Identity Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real


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## Mariposa Electrique (Oct 22, 2016)

Marvin said:


> Well that's just silly. The concept is certainly real.
> 
> Like, claiming gender doesn't exist is essentially saying that when people encounter someone who appears to be a man (regardless of genitalia), they have zero preconceived notions about what to expect from that person. It's saying that there are no overarching trends. And that's clearly not the case.


I agree,  but you can put a very beautiful girl in a tuxedo and conceal her hair with a nice hat and people would still think, "that's either a really young looking dude, or a lesbian. I am going to be respectful, but this person is making uncomfortably attracted to them."

People may want to project as other genders, but if you don't at least look the part ( at least 60-80 percent), people will either think you're crazy (CWC) or they'll think you're a young boy or lesbian. 
I respect everyone's right to express whatever they want or however they want, but no one can police the world and ask them to believe something that visible reality denies.


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## The Giver (Oct 22, 2016)

As posed in the title of the thread, the answer is trivially "Yes, gender identity exists".

As in, I'm a man, which is importantly different from what I have between my legs. When I say "I'm a man" or "I'm a boy" I'm not just saying that I have a dick, I'm talking about a lot of social and cultural facts about who I am and how I exist in society. The same goes for females. Now, we might think that having or not having a dick is important to determining one's gender identity (since what gender role you assume is governed by a social norm about your biology), but it seems clear that there is more to it than that (chiefly social/cultural stuff). 

This includes things like what I've been brought up to enjoy, what role I play in society, what clothes it is socially acceptable for me to wear, etc. This sort of thing is worth teasing apart from simple biology, since it clearly plays an important role in people's lives and isn't reducible to any biological fact (i.e. there is no biological reason for it to be unacceptable for men to wear skirts, it is just a social fact about American society).

Whether or not it is possible to have a biologically female brain and a male body, on the other hand, is a totally different question. Actually, I know some professors who don't like to cast trans shit in biological terms, though if you go that route I worry you're admitting it is just a choice you are making, which seems wrong. Because of this, I think talking about trans as an issue of gender identity is actually unhelpful, since gender seems to refer to non-biological social facts about a society rather than what a person physically is. And, if I understand correctly, being trans is emphatically not supposed to be a social phenomenon, but rather a physical fact about a person that they cannot chose. A trans person doesn't choose to want to adhere to female gender roles, they encounter themselves as a woman mentally despite having a man's body such that there is a conflict between who they are on the inside and outside (hence dysphoria). 

Now, they will want to adhere to their preferred sex's associated gender roles, but this is a social fact about wanting to fit into our cultural framework (i.e. to be recognized as a woman since you mentally are one by conforming to societal norms that dictate biological women adopt a certain gender role) and not directly a function of the physical facts of trans-ness.


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## Load Bearing Drywall (Oct 22, 2016)

Electric Eye said:


> If there have been scientific studies that show trans people have more in common with the sex they identify as, and even taking into account brain plasticity, why would that mean a gender identity wouldn't exist?



Here's a pretty good response to the linked article by Dr. James Cantor on why the differences in that article just show that they're similar to cis gays and lesbians.


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## QI 541 (Oct 22, 2016)

Yes, it's real, and the next time Chris pepper sprays someone or runs them over he should be sentenced to women's prison.


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## POWER IN MISERY (Oct 22, 2016)

no


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## Aquinas (Oct 22, 2016)

raymond said:


> Yes, it's real, and the next time Chris pepper sprays someone or runs them over he should be sentenced to women's prison.


He would like this, A-log.

If i idenfified as mayogendered, would a tumblrite be forced to put my mayo on their sammich at risk of offending me?


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## Picklepower (Oct 22, 2016)

I don't buy into gender being a "construct" this sounds like modern bullshit, I think trans people have the right to do what they want, but they can never completely be the opposite gender.


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## WOKE_AF 95 (Oct 22, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> I'm going to powerlevel slightly in this thread, but it's relevant to the topic and my own experience has led me to believe that gender identity doesn't actually exist.  Let's look at the popular definitions of gender identity, first:
> 
> 1. Gender roles ("I'm a girl because I like pink." "I'm genderfluid because I like dresses some days and suits other days.")
> This one is obviously bullshit.  Gender norms aren't innately part of being male or female.  They vary between cultures and time, a girl doesn't stop being a girl because she decided not to wear makeup that day, drag queens dress like women but they aren't female or trans women.  It's so weird to me that a lot of trans people denounce gender roles, while at the same time upholding them to the point of believing that someone who doesn't completely conform to male or female stereotypes is a third gender.
> ...



I agree 100% and I have never seen someome so articulately and accuratley explain exactly how I feel about this topic. Bravo sir


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## WOKE_AF 95 (Oct 22, 2016)

Picklepower said:


> sounds like modern bullshit,


Sounds more like post modern bullshit to me


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## Mariposa Electrique (Oct 22, 2016)

The Giver said:


> This includes things like what I've been brought up to enjoy, what role I play in society, what clothes it is socially acceptable for me to wear, etc. This sort of thing is worth teasing apart from simple biology, since it clearly plays an important role in people's lives and isn't reducible to any biological fact (i.e. there is no biological reason for it to be unacceptable for men to wear skirts, it is just a social fact about American society).


Yeah, but you're describing "conditioning", what people don't realize is that once parents, siblings or other family see the slightest effeminate trait in a boy child, they unconsciously try to beat it out of them, driving it deeper into their psyche. Both the East and the West have done this to their male children. I am not saying I don't believe in a real biological cause for transgenderism, but what I don't believe in is that we are inherently born with just a masculine and feminine soul. We both have masculine and feminine traits that we don't even realize as such, such as pushing yourself to get out of bed in the morning or being assertive, these are masculine traits that are essential to our psycho-social and psycho-sexual.  development.
We both (as men and women) also have feminine traits, like the need to fall in love and bond on a deep level with anyone regardless of gender, or like being a nurturing parent. 
I think, that if we acknowledge that gender is not that important and allow men that are hypermasculine or fruity to express their feelings (without judgement), we will stop seeing a lot of trenders, and transgenderism will go back to being the statistic it was before middle aged white men decided to unload their metaphorical baggage onto the LGBT.


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## ICametoLurk (Oct 22, 2016)

How can it be real if we aren't even real?


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## Electric Eye (Oct 23, 2016)

Load Bearing Drywall said:


> Here's a pretty good response to the linked article by Dr. James Cantor on why the differences in that article just show that they're similar to cis gays and lesbians.


All right, they reflect sexual orientation. A fair point that I can't really disagree with.

But then what? It's clear their brains start reflecting that of a woman's brain or some parts according to the studies linked in the OP and if we are our brains, at what point are we supposed to scream "bullshit!" on someone claiming to be a woman?

It is true, gender is a human-made concept and not something like sex which is entirely biological. It is also true that different species have different power dynamics between the sexes.

Does that mean gender doesn't exist because it is an artifical concept? Well yeah, in the same sense that a number system doesn't exist beyond an abstract concept that exists in our heads.

Now does that mean some men identifying as women are appropriating women spaces? Some possibly are, yeah, and I think that should be the real question here.

tl;dr: gender identity is a human-made tool to identify group characteristics. Asking if it exists isn't useful. The real question should be "is identifying as a woman despite being a penis-haver unethical because vagina-havers have been discriminated in society for being vagina-havers?"


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## idosometimes (Oct 23, 2016)

Few identities are real.  Gender is definitely one of the fake ones.  Gender cannot be validated.  You can't get a gender test.  It is all bunkum.  Any person can be any gender at any time.  It is a self-identified quality.  A pretty meaningless one too.  We don't really care much about gender.  It doesn't determine how we make friends.  It doesn't determine how we have sex.  No one reads through craigslist and decides not to book the qt hooker with nice tits and an 8" cock because it identifies as "they" or "genderfluid."  No one decides not to pound some boipucci because the twink identifies as two spirit.

Chris recently reminded us that there are officially 58 genders.  58 different identities.  How do we come to that number?  Have we reached the maximum number of discrete steps on range of gender variation?  do we need more?  Fewer?  Look at Chris' identity.  How many words does he need to describe it?  And what happens when people don't' agree with that identity?  Stupid Kim told him he wasn't a lipstick lesbian.  She doesn't determine his identity.  Only he can.


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## Mars Attacks! (Oct 23, 2016)

Electric Eye said:


> Explain a bit more here, OP. The other two definitions are easy, obvious garbage to counter but this right here is the kicker to the "no gender identity argument."
> 
> If there have been scientific studies that show trans people have more in common with the sex they identify as, and even taking into account brain plasticity, why would that mean a gender identity wouldn't exist? And isn't body dysphoria in people (especially with regards to a sexual body part or characteristic) who don't go full-on trans just proving the people who say gender identity is a spectrum right?
> 
> Defend your thesis a bit more, OP. Curious about your thoughts.


I'm skeptical of brain sex because every study I've seen on it has very small sample sizes and like the quoted article below says, seems to deliberately misinterpret data.


Load Bearing Drywall said:


> Here's a pretty good response to the linked article by Dr. James Cantor on why the differences in that article just show that they're similar to cis gays and lesbians.


Maybe brain sex is real, but the way the data is presented makes it seem like people are trying to find evidence to support what they already believe, rather than using the evidence to form their beliefs.



> Now does that mean some men identifying as women are appropriating women spaces? Some possibly are, yeah, and I think that should be the real question here.
> 
> tl;dr: gender identity is a human-made tool to identify group characteristics. Asking if it exists isn't useful. The real question should be "is identifying as a woman despite being a penis-haver unethical because vagina-havers have been discriminated in society for being vagina-havers?"


This is something I'm concerned about TBH.  The thing is that passing trans people are already permitted in opposite sex bathrooms, changing rooms, etc.  Nobody questions them being there because they look like the opposite sex.  But when you allow anyone into a space based on identity, suddenly a man with a full beard can claim he has a female soul and be allowed in the women's room.  Plenty of women are understandably uncomfortable with this, but they aren't allowed to speak up without being called transphobic.  There are sexual predators using this to their advantage.  You know, the thing trans activists said would never happen.

Trans people are entitled to their own safe spaces IMO, but they don't need to take away female safe spaces to do that.


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## Marvin (Oct 23, 2016)

idosometimes said:


> Few identities are real.  Gender is definitely one of the fake ones.  Gender cannot be validated.  You can't get a gender test.  It is all bunkum.  Any person can be any gender at any time.  It is a self-identified quality.


Few identities? Nonono, let's be logically consistent here. You're saying that, without some objective measure, a particular identity cannot be real. But all socially defined identities share that same property. Basically, by that standard, no identities are real.

Hipsters aren't real. The word "hipster" is entirely meaningless and any sort of linguistic understanding you might perceive behind the word is imagined. Same thing with "Jew". Jews aren't real. Muslims aren't real. No human-conceived social striations ever have been real.

Ultimately, I want to emphasize that words have meaning, even if you can quibble about the specifics. That doesn't mean that the concept doesn't exist. It doesn't mean it doesn't have useful applications in the world.

Muslims quibble over who's a "real" muslim. Does that mean that the word is meaningless though? Hell no. I have no problem talking about Muslims, and I know you guys will know what I mean when I use the word.

Heh, y'know, SJW/butthurt Canadians sometimes get cranky when you use the word "American" to exclusively refer to US citizens. If you ever see a lolcow Canadian talking about USians, that's where it's coming from; Anti-Americanism + an attempt to make a political point with goofy language constructs.

The SJW approach to gender, that you're required to recognize the validity of their genders without questioning anything, is obviously stupid. But what you're saying is the logical inverse, and in the same way, is just as stupid.

Gender's an established concept. The word wasn't just invented in the last 10 years, y'know.


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## Mars Attacks! (Oct 23, 2016)

Side note and relevant to the topic: Someone on Tumblr did a survey of detransitioned people.  It's interesting that a lot of the people surveyed used to identify as transmedicalist/truscum (TRUE and HONEST transsexuals who believe you need dysphoria and a diagnosis to be trans) and later realized they were actually running from something else about themselves.  I know it's Tumblr so take it with several grains of salt, but this is the first survey of its kind and really demonstrates how flimsy gender identity is.


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## Marvin (Oct 23, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> Side note and relevant to the topic: Someone on Tumblr did a survey of detransitioned people.  It's interesting that a lot of the people surveyed used to identify as transmedicalist/truscum (TRUE and HONEST transsexuals who believe you need dysphoria and a diagnosis to be trans) and later realized they were actually running from something else about themselves.  I know it's Tumblr so take it with several grains of salt, but this is the first survey of its kind and really demonstrates how flimsy gender identity is.


Well, this would be specifically for people who detransitioned. You'd need to talk to people who transitioned and stayed in their new identity to get an full understanding of the situation.

The reasons for detransitioning are interesting though. Shifting political/ideological beliefs at 63%, and discovering alternative coping mechanisms at 59%. (You can check multiple items.)

Seems to me that these women came to peace with the idea of being merely a butch woman, instead of a full "man".


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## idosometimes (Oct 23, 2016)

Marvin said:


> [stuff]


Identity has no meaning when the only requirement is saying you are a member of the group.  Vonnegut called these "granfalloons" in "Cat's Cradle."  Anyone can identify as a Muslim.  Homos say they are Muslims or Mormons.  The rules say no dick sucking.  Whose identity do we accept?  What about excommunicated Mormans?   The club says they are out.  Can they still call themselves Mormons?

You can contrast that to group memberships that require some type of accomplishment or fee.  You aren't a whatever you do because you say you are.  You are because you got degrees and certifications and licenses.  You are a lawyer or scuba whatever or .  Most social identities are made up.  You say it so you are it.  Chris gets to use a women's restroom and shower with women at the health club because he says he's a woman.  Muslims who work as rent boys consider themselves Muslims (and some even do the ritual after sex washing voodoo).


> Gender's an established concept. The word wasn't just invented in the last 10 years, y'know.


Being invented 50 years ago doesn't make it any better.  It was borrowed from linguistics.  It wasn't used at all for humans prior to the 1950s and didn't become an accepted concept until the 1970s.


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## Marvin (Oct 23, 2016)

idosometimes said:


> Identity has no meaning when the only requirement is saying you are a member of the group. Vonnegut called these "granfalloons" in "Cat's Cradle." Anyone can identify as a Muslim. Homos say they are Muslims or Mormons. The rules say no dick sucking. Whose identity do we accept? What about excommunicated Mormans? The club says they are out. Can they still call themselves Mormons?
> 
> You can contrast that to group memberships that require some type of accomplishment or fee. You aren't a whatever you do because you say you are. You are because you got degrees and certifications and licenses. You are a lawyer or scuba whatever or . Most social identities are made up. You say it so you are it. Chris gets to use a women's restroom and shower with women at the health club because he says he's a woman. Muslims who work as rent boys consider themselves Muslims (and some even do the ritual after sex washing voodoo).


I'm not sure what you're saying here.

My point was that the lack of an objective standard does not mean the word does not have meaning. For example, you're referring to Muslims in your post. Ignore the gay stuff. Just consider the fact that various Muslim groups disagree about who qualifies as Muslim. Does that mean that Muslims aren't real?


idosometimes said:


> Being invented 50 years ago doesn't make it any better. It was borrowed from linguistics. It wasn't used at all for humans prior to the 1950s and didn't become an accepted concept until the 1970s.


My focus was more on the "concept" part of that, not so much the "word". But even the original linguistic word itself was intertwined with what we'd now refer to as gender.


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## AnOminous (Oct 23, 2016)

I have as many testicles as there are real genders.


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## Rip_In_Pepperino (Oct 23, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> There are sexual predators using this to their advantage.  You know, the thing trans activists said would never happen.


The linked article is about the case of Christopher Hambrook, which is at best an outlier.



idosometimes said:


> Chris recently reminded us that there are officially 58 genders.  58 different identities.  How do we come to that number?  Have we reached the maximum number of discrete steps on range of gender variation?  do we need more?  Fewer?  Look at Chris' identity.  How many words does he need to describe it?  And what happens when people don't' agree with that identity?  Stupid Kim told him he wasn't a lipstick lesbian.  She doesn't determine his identity.  Only he can.


I explained this meme here: https://kiwifarms.net/threads/fb-9-17-chris-on-fb-genders.24327/page-8#post-1756001

It was derived more than two and a half years ago from a non-exhaustive search by ABC (the US TV network) for terms for gender identity and expression that Facebook would accept in user profiles, and the terms fell into seven clusters, without showing much gradation (the most gradation has three steps: "female-intermediate-male").


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## Male Idiot (Oct 24, 2016)

Ntwadumela said:


> Honestly? There's only male and female. Any more than that and you're an attention whore/special snowflake.
> 
> Roles are given to gender largely because of biological differences: For example, most men tend to be stronger than most women, so many are encouraged to engage in sports that help their strength. There are exceptions to either sex, but they are not the norm and very few in comparison.
> 
> As a human "cis" male I'm pretty confident and proud of myself and I support traditional male roles for myself and others. If you're different though I keep an open mind.



I have to agree with the additional that that gender is just a synonime for sex, and I would add "slow in the mind" to the whore/special snowflake duo.


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## Johnny Bravo (Oct 27, 2016)

BurningPewter said:


> I personally think that there are innate tastes common to gender and that, for example it's more likely boys to be drawn to GI Joe and girls drawn to sentimental things like Care Bears.  Just personal thought tho.



Marketing is also a factor. It's hard to say if anything is definitively masculine or feminine because so much of our development is influenced by our environment - our parents and culture. By the time an infant is old enough to display an interest in a certain type of toy they've already been molded to be biased one way or the other. That makes it impossible to perform a controlled experiment.

I don't think mental gender exists because it's inconsistent. Compare being mentally male or female to being an introvert or extrovert. Even though I self identify as female I must admit that I often act in stereotypical masculine ways, preferring stoicism and logic over emotions (although emotions do have merit in certain contexts). However, I also identify as an introvert and cannot say I've ever felt like or behaved like an extrovert. Extrovert and introvert have clear definitions in psychology, male and female do not.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Oct 27, 2016)

Until I started becoming aware of Tumblr and the rest of the shit that is out there, I never once even had a thought as to what 'gender' I was.

Really IMHO it's entirely subjective and pretty fucking meaningless.

What always fascinates me is how trans people come to realize they are trans. What does it even mean to be "a female who feels she is male". What does it mean to feel like a male?


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## Diana Moon Glampers (Oct 27, 2016)

You can identify as whatever you like, but it doesn't change reality and you can't control how others see you.  You can modify your appearance to try to change how people see you, but you can't have the final say -- only they get that.

The transgender phenomenon is the same kind of culture-bound syndrome as the glass delusion.  Today, if people had the glass delusion, there'd be a community of internet people insisting that some study from China on 12 people with glass identities showed that their levels of silica were very very slightly higher than the control group, indicating a biological truth to their identity as a being made partially or entirely of glass.

People should be able to wear what they want, have their hair how they want, do the jobs they're qualified for without regard to whether they're a dude who wears dresses or a woman with a buzzcut.  This idea that their feelings are SO special that they're just entirely out of the realm of experience of their sex is hilarious and contradicted by the fact that there are, well, so many of them.  Being a transwoman is just being a different kind of man.  Being a transman is just beeing a different kind of woman.  You can split hairs about female/woman and male/man all you want, but if the last 4 years of the internet has taught us anything, it's that if you give gender delusions an inch (a trans woman is a woman, just a male woman), they'll try to take a light-year (biological sex is an illusion/a spectrum).


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## Jaimas (Oct 27, 2016)

Gender dysphoria is a legitimate medical condition. You don't get something like that through the medical establishment without hard science, and there is a tiny shard of the human population that legitimately has it. One reason that facts are so hard to come by outside of the medical field is because legitimate cases of it are rare; your average human can and will go through life without ever meeting a legitimate tranny because you have about one for every 10,000 or so people out there. I know legitimate dysphoric people who went through all the legal and procedural hurdles in order to transition, and, by and large, are now living happy, fulfilling lives. They're treating what's for them is a very real medical issue, and the medical establishment agrees with this.

*This said.*

Gender identity as Tumblr and Friends define it is _*100% bullshit*_. It does not have a single, solitary scrap of actual science behind it. No studies of worth, not a single legitimate peer-reviewed study (I.E. one reviewed by _credible _people, and not like that one study a friend showed me where the author _of_ the study peer-reviewed it herself), proving _any_ of the genderspecial movement's claims.

I've stated this repeatedly since writing the original article on Vade back in 2014, but there is no studies proving the more modern genderspecial movement's claims on _fucking anything_. Hard science and genderspecials are like oil and water, and do not properly mix, and ergo many of them are vehemently anti-science (Vade's own Aura, for example). Because of this, it's perfectly fine to insult it openly. Scientific fact is cold, logical, and beautiful in its ability to not give a fuck about feelings, and more people should embrace it because it represents a bulwark that morons online can never truly circumvent (though they're trying their damnedest to do so). They don't care if their claiming this shit makes legit trannies out to be fucking lunatics, and they don't care if their claims wind up hurting people close to them, just so long as they can milk asspats and Social Media cred.

When one mentions gender identity and questions if it's real, you thusly have to clarify:

If you mean the medical definition of it, then yes, it's a thing.

If you mean the modern, social media nonsense where everyone claims to be trans without any legitimate reason for doing so, then no.


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## goldthreadz (Oct 27, 2016)

The human body and brain is one hell of a strange machine. one microscopic change of alignment of a gear can change the entire way it functions.
idk about you guys but i feel that its safe to say yeah. much stranger stuff has happened.


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## Rio (Oct 27, 2016)

Varg Did Nothing Wrong said:


> What always fascinates me is how trans people come to realize they are trans. What does it even mean to be "a female who feels she is male". What does it mean to feel like a male?



Believe me, gender dysphoria makes itself known fairly obviously. When you have it the question isn't so much if you suffer from it as what you want to do about it.

I think gender identity is as real as any other identity. The word 'identity' is hard to define in a scientific way, but like Marvin pointed out if this one isn't real then there's no basis to consider any other identity real either. You'd be hard pressed to find a credited psychologist who denies that gender dysphoria (and by default that generally also means gender identity) is real.

Asking if the concept of a certain identity is real is in and of itself a rather vague question to pose, since you're asking for physical and concrete evidence of something that isn't really necessarily a physical or concrete concept. I assume you meant 'is transsexuality a real thing/is gender dysphoria a real thing,' to which the only answer is yes. It definitely is. Gender identity disorder/gender dysphoria is a real medical condition, and gender identity is as real a concept as the concept of any other identity.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Oct 27, 2016)

Rio said:


> Believe me, gender dysphoria makes itself known fairly obviously. When you have it the question isn't so much if you suffer from it as what you want to do about it.
> 
> I think gender identity is as real as any other identity. The word 'identity' is hard to define in a scientific way, but like Marvin pointed out if this one isn't real then there's no basis to consider any other identity real either. You'd be hard pressed to find a credited psychologist who denies that gender dysphoria (and by default that generally also means gender identity) is real.



The real question I guess I'm getting at is what does it feel like to have gender dysphoria. Why do people go through years of hormone therapy and surgery? What does it mean to be a "man" as opposed to a "woman". Do people with dysphoria feel like they're missing genitals when they look in their pants?


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## shibbolethal (Oct 27, 2016)

Varg Did Nothing Wrong said:


> The real question I guess I'm getting at is what does it feel like to have gender dysphoria. Why do people go through years of hormone therapy and surgery? What does it mean to be a "man" as opposed to a "woman". Do people with dysphoria feel like they're missing genitals when they look in their pants?



it's a whole bunch of different things, and it varies slightly from person to person. i couldn't explain it to you, but here's a link that i glanced over that has a bunch of different accounts from older trans people, most of whom have been living as their preferred gender for a long time. i don't think that a person who isn't trans could really understand it any more than a person who doesn't have autism could understand what it feels like to be autistic.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Oct 27, 2016)

shibbolethal said:


> i don't think that a person who isn't trans could really understand it any more than a person who doesn't have autism could understand what it feels like to be autistic.



I think you're probably right, which makes it harder to understand what the point of all this hype or talk about transgenders even is nowadays.

Sexual preference is easy enough to understand, you can empathize with homosexuals and such because you think "hey, they're like me, except the things I feel for gender X, they feel for Y" or whatever, but when you get into this identity stuff, you really get bogged down in just what all of it means.

I wish there was a way a simple "country boy" like myself could understand it with real-world examples.


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## shibbolethal (Oct 27, 2016)

Varg Did Nothing Wrong said:


> I think you're probably right, which makes it harder to understand what the point of all this hype or talk about transgenders even is nowadays.



i think that when it comes down to it, it's not a matter of understanding if you really can't understand. it's a matter of acceptance. i don't understand all the intricacies and brain chemistry involving why some people are, say, schizophrenic, but i accept that they are schizophrenic and i don't let that define them as long as they don't let it define themselves either, if that makes sense. or even if you can't accept it, just tolerating it like you'd tolerate anything else is good enough!

if you really want to understand it, or if you have questions, maybe you could google it or try talking with a transgender person? :powerlevel: i know i'm open to questions ect.


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## Male Idiot (Oct 27, 2016)

If it is an illness, why is it not treated and why is it encouraged? Seems like a fuckup.

Either its an illness that needs treating, or it is... what is it? A mutation? Its not a choice for sure.


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## shibbolethal (Oct 27, 2016)

Male Idiot said:


> If it is an illness, why is it not treated and why is it encouraged? Seems like a fuckup.
> 
> Either its an illness that needs treating, or it is... what is it? A mutation? Its not a choice for sure.



it sure is an illness! it's treated by hormone therapy. unless you're referring to getting treatment for gender dysphoria as being 'encouraged.' that's kind of like saying that giving a person with depression some medicine is somehow encouraging their illness.

 it's about as much of a choice as being gay is. it's plausible that it's a mutation, just like it's plausible that being gay is caused by an excess of androgens or estrogen in the womb, but there's no hard science to back it up, aside from some brain studies.


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## Techpriest (Oct 27, 2016)

Considering there's plenty of societies that historically have 'genders' that aren't linked to sex, no, gender identity is real. Gender is very much a cultural construct.


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## Aquinas (Oct 27, 2016)

Someone told me that on reddit, im not sure if thats the same guy who also turned out to constantly moderate a porn sub for that one pokemon autists love


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## ChuckSlaughter (Oct 27, 2016)

lurk_moar said:


> Sex and gender aren't even the same thing. Sex is between your legs, and gender is between your ears.


They most certainly are the same thing though there is a campaign to make them different.  The word gender predates any western notion of trans people or gender roles or anything like that.  
The correct thing would have been to make a new word to describe this distinction but the academic trans community does whatever the fuck it wants.

As it is I suppose the campaign is successful I tend to know what people mean and I now use the word gender as such myself.... but no these people are deliberately changing words.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Oct 27, 2016)

Varg Did Nothing Wrong said:


> The real question I guess I'm getting at is what does it feel like to have gender dysphoria.


I don't know what it's like, but being born a woman or even human you can just guess; imagine going to sleep as a woman or a man one night, and then waking up with as a different sex,  but with the same genes and desires in your brain still the same. This is why I don't buy into the male lesbian with no real signs of dysphoria; the reality that you're very much attracted to female bodies indicates that their brains still went through the process of virlization in utero. I don't believe that sex and gender are not intertwined like tumblr would like for you to believe, which means most of it is BS.


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## KiwisAreCute (Oct 27, 2016)

I never understood certain people's need to say they're trans post-transition. Unless someone is going to have sex with you, nobody cares what's in your pants.
Also, genderfluidity sounds like bullshit to me. Nobody feels completely masculine or completely feminine all the time.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Oct 27, 2016)

KiwisAreCute said:


> Also, genderfluidity sounds like bullshit to me. Nobody feels completely masculine or completely feminine all the time.


I don't think there is much to feeling masculine and feminine anyway, meaning, it does not feel like anything except for maybe that we are overly emotional sometimes and men are horny all the time until their 60s.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Oct 27, 2016)

How is it not a mental illness?

I mean regardless of whether they truthfully feel that way, certainly nobody would argue it's a healthy thing to be.


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## Male Idiot (Oct 27, 2016)

shibbolethal said:


> it sure is an illness! it's treated by hormone therapy. unless you're referring to getting treatment for gender dysphoria as being 'encouraged.' that's kind of like saying that giving a person with depression some medicine is somehow encouraging their illness.
> 
> it's about as much of a choice as being gay is. it's plausible that it's a mutation, just like it's plausible that being gay is caused by an excess of androgens or estrogen in the womb, but there's no hard science to back it up, aside from some brain studies.



Your analogy is flawed. 

A depressed person is given medicine to be no longer  depressed.
A dysphoric one is not given medicine to make him or her comforable as they are, but rather altered so that the body matches the state of the mind.
That's the same logic as giving a person with split personality two ID cards for both his or her personalities. That's not treatment.


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## shibbolethal (Oct 27, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> How is it not a mental illness?
> 
> I mean regardless of whether they truthfully feel that way, certainly nobody would argue it's a healthy thing to be.



it was removed from the DSM, so it's not officially a mental disorder. body dysphoria is a mental illness though. i'm not a psychologist, but most of the time professional psychiatric care for trans people revolves around helping them deal with depression and anxiety involving the way society perceives them. it's sort of like a mental illness, but i think it can be entirely "cured" by surgery and hormone therapy, whereas stuff like schizophrenia is incurable and can only be managed by heavy medication and constant therapy.



Male Idiot said:


> Your analogy is flawed.
> 
> A depressed person is given medicine to be no longer  depressed.
> A dysphoric one is not given medicine to make him or her comforable as they are, but rather altered so that the body matches the state of the mind.
> That's the same logic as giving a person with split personality two ID cards for both his or her personalities. That's not treatment.



hey, man. i'm not a doctor. all i know is how professionals currently treat trans people, and that's by therapy and hormones. there's no medicine to make somebody cis, as far as i know, just like there's no medicine to make somebody straight. you could argue that gay camps or whatever could "cure" or "treat" them, but more often than not it results in suicide. ineffective.


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## KiwisAreCute (Oct 27, 2016)

Male Idiot said:


> Your analogy is flawed.
> 
> A depressed person is given medicine to be no longer  depressed.
> A dysphoric one is not given medicine to make him or her comforable as they are, but rather altered so that the body matches the state of the mind.
> That's the same logic as giving a person with split personality two ID cards for both his or her personalities. That's not treatment.


While it's not normal to want to mutilate your body since you're unhappy with it, I don't see any other way you can treat it. Even if given drugs for depression, you have to put effort into learning coping mechanisms and other things to manage with depression. Drugs don't give you a magic cure to a problem.
I see no way to stop someone from becoming what they want. Gay people tried to stop "being gay", since it's not normal technically, and people tried to treat homosexuality. They would learn mechanisms to help them stop having homosexual urges, and would follow instructions from the bible. That didn't stop them, and didn't stop homosexuality. I don't see trans being a very different story. I don't think we can treat it through "curing them of being trans".


----------



## Mars Attacks! (Oct 27, 2016)

Techpriest said:


> Considering there's plenty of societies that historically have 'genders' that aren't linked to sex, no, gender identity is real. Gender is very much a cultural construct.


Most third genders rely on sex stereotypes and come from societies with very strict gender roles.  I completely agree with you that it's a cultural construct, but that means there's nothing inherently female or "other" about a man who performs stereotypical female behaviors instead of male ones or vice versa.


----------



## Puppet Pal Clem (Oct 27, 2016)

KiwisAreCute said:


> I see no way to stop someone from becoming what they want.



How about reality?

A gay person can get as many dicks as they want shoved up their butt, but you cannot change your biological sex.


----------



## shibbolethal (Oct 27, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> How about reality?
> 
> A gay person can get as many dicks as they want shoved up their butt, but you cannot change your biological sex.



legally, you can. or at least, get as close as possible to it, which is enough for trans people.


----------



## ICametoLurk (Oct 27, 2016)

Mars Attacks! said:


> Most third genders rely on sex stereotypes and come from societies with very strict gender roles.


One non-western society where transsexualism was deemed normal was this Injun tribe in South America that would make one of their sons a girl if they had like 5 sons and no girls to marry off before the Spanish came.


----------



## Puppet Pal Clem (Oct 27, 2016)

shibbolethal said:


> which is enough for trans people



yeah them suicide rates aren't necessarily suggesting this


----------



## Mars Attacks! (Oct 27, 2016)

Ultimately if someone wants to transition, that's none of my business.  It's their body and their life.  :powerlevel: As a dysphoric person who chooses to deal with it in other ways though, I think giving out permanent alterations that may or may not help should be done with a bit more caution.  Generally to get hormones and surgery a person has to be in therapy for at least a year, but plenty of gender therapists are happy to let them do the minimum number of sessions (one a month or less) and just assume that they know what they want, without encouraging them to question WHY they want it or if it's really going to solve their problem.


Puppet Pal Clem said:


> yeah them suicide rates aren't necessarily suggesting this


This is part of why I'm critical of transition.  Dysphoria isn't always solved by treatment.  You "fix" one thing, then you start fixating on something else.  Eventually you're left with things that can't be changed and that's too much for some people.  I'm not advocating "pray away the gay" but sometimes the best way to be happy is to make peace with the hand you were dealt in life.


----------



## Male Idiot (Oct 27, 2016)

Oh those "pray the gay away" camps do nothing. I was thinking about a chemical solution, a drug that fixes the error in the brain. Of course it may not be possible, but it would be worth investigating I think, if nothing else than to allow for an alternative choice.


----------



## KiwisAreCute (Oct 27, 2016)

It's true, if there was a way to stop dysphoria with drug treatment and coping mechanisms, i'd be for it, because feeling like there's something wrong your body isn't pleasant. There's no way (at least not in the near future) to fully turn a man into a woman biologically, so transitioning doesn't help a ton.
I'm a little hesitant to say publicly that I think being trans should be cured, in fear of being seen as a horrible person who hates trannies or something like that.


----------



## shibbolethal (Oct 28, 2016)

KiwisAreCute said:


> I'm a little hesitant to say publicly that I think being trans should be cured, in fear of being seen as a horrible person who hates trannies or something like that.



well, that depends on how you word it. if you're saying "i think that trans people should have the _option_ to undergo treatment in order to make them more comfortable as their biological sex _if they want to_", then yeah, that's fine and i don't think any rational person could get mad at you for it. but if you're either coming from it at an angle like "this makes me personally uncomfortable and i don't want people like this to exist" or "the only treatment available for trans people should be to make them not be trans" then that's.. more than a little questionable.



Spoiler: powerlevel



:powerlevel: i have a hormone imbalance and i could never picture myself as comfortable in my body before i was put on testosterone (i'm a man but i had very feminine features/went through a puberty more similar to a biological womans puberty than a mans) and i don't think any amount of medication that didn't fix my feminine sexual characteristics would help the way i was feeling. i'd much rather be how i am today than drugged up so much that i didn't care.


----------



## Rio (Oct 28, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> How about reality?
> 
> A gay person can get as many dicks as they want shoved up their butt, but you cannot change your biological sex.


This thread is kinda veering off topic a bit, so I won't really go too deep into this but I don't think anyone is suggesting that transitioning 'changes someone's biological make-up.' That's what people who are against the idea of transitioning say that it is to make their platform seem like the only reasonable side of the debate.

The purpose of transitioning is to alleviate gender dysphoria, which it undeniably does and tons of research on this has provided evidence that in most cases yes, it does help a lot. Nobody is saying that their biological make-up post-transition is identical to that of a woman who was biologically born a woman. It's more about being able to look in the mirror and seeing a woman, and trying to have the world perceive them as a woman in order to combat their dysphoria. Depression rates are remarkably higher amongst those who do not pass or believe that they do not pass.



Puppet Pal Clem said:


> yeah them suicide rates aren't necessarily suggesting this


That's because treatment of transgendered people, while better than a few years ago, still has a road to go.
For starters the suicide rates of transgendered people take along anyone who's been treated in any way shape or form for gender identity disorders. That includes many people who did not transition, and you'll find that most of those that commit suicide ARE in fact those who either did not transition or whose transition did not help in their passability. A lot of the stunningly high depression and suicide rates also tends to come from them experiencing discrimination, treatment refusal, assault, and other nasty things.

Transition is for many the fix that they need. It's just not the right end-goal for anyone suffering from gender identity disorders. It's something that should definitely be treated on a case by case basis, but pretending that it never helps and that it shouldn't be allowed seems more like a personal objection to it than anything to do with your concern for others. If you said 'transition shouldn't be the first any only thing we grab for when it comes to treating gender identity disorders' I'd agree wholeheartedly. (though it bears mentioning that in most places, it's not as easy to achieve a medically assisted transition as people make it out to be. Many places require you to live as a your preferred gender for a few years before you're allowed to be put on hormone treatment), but I definitely don't agree that medical transition is something we shouldn't be making use of, when there's good medical evidence that suggests that it in many cases helps a lot.


----------



## KiwisAreCute (Oct 28, 2016)

shibbolethal said:


> well, that depends on how you word it. if you're saying "i think that trans people should have the _option_ to undergo treatment in order to make them more comfortable as their biological sex _if they want to_", then yeah, that's fine and i don't think any rational person could get mad at you for it. but if you're either coming from it at an angle like "this makes me personally uncomfortable and i don't want people like this to exist" or "the only treatment available for trans people should be to make them not be trans" then that's.. more than a little questionable.


Oh no, people should be able to do what they think is best. I've never felt uncomfortable with trans people,and I think people should be able to decide what kind of treatment they want. I just know some trans people can't even get a surgery for some medical reason or another, and that's horrible. It makes me want there to be some sort of alternative for people who _can't_ transition. People who think transitioning is the best choice for them should be able to decide for themselves; it's really none of my business.
[Edit] Also, some people just can't afford, or are scared to have a surgery. Surgery for some people has led to people feeling very happy with themselves, but I feel there should be something for the people who can't have that.


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 28, 2016)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> male lesbian


Can someone please explain this particular craziness to me?


----------



## OtterParty (Oct 28, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> Can someone please explain this particular craziness to me?


into women and claiming to be mtf. level of interest in transitioning may vary


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 28, 2016)

OtterParty said:


> into women and claiming to be mtf. level of interest in transitioning may vary


It's just hilarious to me on a personal level because when I was in high school, sometimes my guy friends and I would joke that we were lesbians, because we were men who were attracted to women.


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Oct 28, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> It's just hilarious to me on a personal level because when I was in high school, sometimes my guy friends and I would joke that we were lesbians, because we were men who were attracted to women.


Well, since "male lesbians" tend to have some form of developmental or emotional delay, this seems to be taking the joke too literally, and a world that is stupid enough to humor them.


----------



## ICametoLurk (Oct 28, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> It's just hilarious to me on a personal level because when I was in high school, sometimes my guy friends and I would joke that we were lesbians, because we were men who were attracted to women.


What used to be jokes is now reality.


----------



## Intelligent Calcium (Oct 28, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> Can someone please explain this particular craziness to me?


----------



## Jaimas (Oct 28, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> Can someone please explain this particular craziness to me?



I remember years ago, my mom had someone in one of her art groups who was pretty obviously trans - but interestingly, like Brianna Wu was, an Autogynephiliac. TL;DR (s)he's now one of the "Cotton Ceiling" crowd who claim that lesbians who don't want to fuck MTF trannies are inherently transphobic.

I bring this up because thanks to the Tumblrifcation of gender identity by Social Justice Warriors (I.E. your gender is what you say it is), this is the sort of thing considered a woman now:







....I can't imagine why any enterprising Lesbian_ wouldn't_ want a chunk of that action, can you Kiwis?

I'd probably find this less eminently mockable if this shit didn't read like a retarded version of Dr. Pyg's Dollotrons from the Batman series.


----------



## Pikimon (Oct 28, 2016)

Male Idiot said:


> Oh those "pray the gay away" camps do nothing. I was thinking about a chemical solution, a drug that fixes the error in the brain. Of course it may not be possible, but it would be worth investigating I think, if nothing else than to allow for an alternative choice.



That's not really how the brain works though.


----------



## neverendingmidi (Oct 28, 2016)

There is a simple test, are you turned on by dicks, vags, or both? All else is dressing.

Honestly I figure within the next 25-50 years sex-change surgery will be viewed like lobotomys are now. Unnecessary surgeries to deal with psychological/brain chemistry issuses that some chemical will fix eventually. The question is how many people will have their reputations/lives destroyed as they figure out the correct medication for the issue.


----------



## Male Idiot (Oct 29, 2016)

neverendingmidi said:


> There is a simple test, are you turned on by dicks, vags, or both? All else is dressing.
> 
> Honestly I figure within the next 25-50 years sex-change surgery will be viewed like lobotomys are now. Unnecessary surgeries to deal with psychological/brain chemistry issuses that some chemical will fix eventually. The question is how many people will have their reputations/lives destroyed as they figure out the correct medication for the issue.



I think the sex change will still have a big place, but simply as a fetish for those who just want to do it because it makes them horny. Jimmy will like to be whipped, Timmy likes to dress up as Pikachu to get off, and Tommy will want to be a chick with a dick.

Those that are actually feeling bad would benefit greatly from a chemical solution. The brain is basically an electric and chemical machine. Yes, it is depressing when you think about it. Nothing magical there.


----------



## Jaimas (Oct 29, 2016)

neverendingmidi said:


> There is a simple test, are you turned on by dicks, vags, or both? All else is dressing.
> 
> Honestly I figure within the next 25-50 years sex-change surgery will be viewed like lobotomys are now. Unnecessary surgeries to deal with psychological/brain chemistry issuses that some chemical will fix eventually. The question is how many people will have their reputations/lives destroyed as they figure out the correct medication for the issue.



I disagree, but only insofar as the fact remains that it is an actual condition. But, as I said, it's rare. 0.03% of the human population by most metrics. I use the 0.05% metric, slightly more generous and allowing of errors and unreporteds, but it still gives the same results; legit transpeople account for an infintessimally small amount of the human population, the equivalent of a grain of sand in a swimming pool. Your average person can and will go their entire lives without meeting an actual transperson.

You can tell the difference between a legitimate transperson and a Tumblrite fucking immediately. A legitimate tranny will never even discuss their gender beyond how they choose to identify. An MTF claims to be female and has transitioned and that's the end of it. An FTM claims to be male and has transitioned and that's the end of it. They want to move on with their lives, viewing their condition as the medical issue that it is, and there's nothing wrong with that. Real trannies look at it as a condition to be healed, not an identity.






To compare, someone from the Tumblr genderspecial brigade will _never shut the fuck up_ about how they're a demigendered special snowflake. Recognize this for what it is, Kiwis: An attempt to gain power over you by claiming to be an oppressed minority. Legitimate transpeople are not the ones pushing preferred pronoun legislation and arguing that you're abusive if you refuse to use made-up words and terms without a scrap of scientific evidence about it. This new wave of insane trannies is the result of years of Social Justice activism resulting in them realizing that claiming to be a transgendered person is an easy way to gather oppression points.


----------



## kidsquid (Oct 29, 2016)

Tumblr's definition of gender is garbage. 99% of non binary genders are total, utter bullshit. Male, female, trans or not trans. Tumblr makes up genders so they're not cis kids, therefore they can be more oppressed and rack in those sweet oppression points. Real trans people who have dysphoria are thrown under the bus by transtrenders for "gatekeeping" (aka telling cis kids they're actually cis) ever since it became hip and trendy to be transgender/not cis.



Spoiler: powerlevel maybe



I'm a girl. I have a vagina. I'm happy as a girl, but I'm not exactly fond of stereo-typically feminine things (dresses, make up, other girl shit idk). I'm not special because of it - I prefer male cuts for shirts (have you seen the current womens fashion? Tiny sleeves are the worst, and see through crap? No pockets?? No thanks), and dress in a more masculine manner. I'm still a girl, though. I don't think "Oooh I'm a demigirl because I don't like girly things uwuwuwuwu" or "I'm a trans boy because I wear boy clothes and like video games uwuwuwuwu". I'm a girl, and I always will be.

Edit: Oh, and short hair is just so much easier to take care of. Long hair is the worst.


----------



## KiwisAreCute (Oct 29, 2016)

Male Idiot said:


> I think the sex change will still have a big place, but simply as a fetish for those who just want to do it because it makes them horny. Jimmy will like to be whipped, Timmy likes to dress up as Pikachu to get off, and Tommy will want to be a chick with a dick.
> 
> Those that are actually feeling bad would benefit greatly from a chemical solution. The brain is basically an electric and chemical machine. Yes, it is depressing when you think about it. Nothing magical there.


Okay, I understood you before, but now you're being a bit silly. Many people get the surgery and then feel happy with themselves, and that's all they wanted. I don't know about you, but I doubt someone would ever kill themselves over a fetish.
And no meds give a magical cure. Someone with depression isn't magically cured with meds; they need to learn coping methods too.


----------



## Male Idiot (Oct 29, 2016)

kidsquid said:


> Tumblr's definition of gender is garbage. 99% of non binary genders are total, utter bullshit. Male, female, trans or not trans. Tumblr makes up genders so they're not cis kids, therefore they can be more oppressed and rack in those sweet oppression points. Real trans people who have dysphoria are thrown under the bus by transtrenders for "gatekeeping" (aka telling cis kids they're actually cis) ever since it became hip and trendy to be transgender/not cis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pockets are love, pockets are life.



KiwisAreCute said:


> Okay, I understood you before, but now you're being a bit silly. Many people get the surgery and then feel happy with themselves, and that's all they wanted. I don't know about you, but I doubt someone would ever kill themselves over a fetish.
> And no meds give a magical cure. Someone with depression isn't magically cured with meds; they need to learn coping methods too.









 v

The current thing is rather invasive. Its not like pop a pill in and grow a vagina, no matter what Chris believes. Its a lot of intensive and irreversible surgery that costs a lot of money and it can kill you if you try it at home, aka Unclit 2.0


----------



## The Giver (Oct 29, 2016)

Jaimas said:


> A legitimate tranny will never even discuss their gender beyond how they choose to identify.


I'd actually go a bit farther and say that they don't even discuss that unless they have to. The whole idea is to be recognized as "who you are" by those around you, so calling attention to the fact that people sometimes do not identify you by your preferred gender isn't something the few trans folks I've personally known would ever do.


----------



## Jan_Hus (Oct 29, 2016)

Maybe. Don't care either way as long you aren't an asshole about your identity.


----------



## Mike "Bubbles" Smith (Oct 30, 2016)

The Giver said:


> I'd actually go a bit farther and say that they don't even discuss that unless they have to. The whole idea is to be recognized as "who you are" by those around you, so calling attention to the fact that people sometimes do not identify you by your preferred gender isn't something the few trans folks I've personally known would ever do.


ime most transwomen just want to be women, and that includes being left the fuck alone about their gender, and that includes not bringing it up unless it's necessary

it's the lolcows that turn their gender identity into the one thing that they identify with


----------



## Cheap Sandals (Oct 30, 2016)

I used to be super bullshit liberal about trans stuff like "u can be whatever gender u fell I n ur kokoro uwu" because I suffered dysphoria for most of my life and I wanted to believe you could relieve it. I tried the Tumblr route because it was the only one I knew of to fix it (I was a teen-ager)  but stopped quickly because I realised it was just silly and making a fool of myself. The more you try to perform what you "should" be doing the faster you find out all those "shoulds" are total horse shit. 

Gender is bullshit and the people who feeeeeeeeeel that they're born liking makeup and lacy underpants are delusional.


----------



## r00 (Oct 30, 2016)

Gender identity is definitely real, but there are only two options to choose from.


----------



## Mike "Bubbles" Smith (Oct 30, 2016)

r00 said:


> Gender identity is definitely real, but there are only two options to choose from.


Personally I'm open to the idea of there being more than two genders but 99% of the "nonbinary" genders exist because tumblr/SJ types love to put people in such constricting boxes that when someone inevitably doesn't fit they have to craft a new box. For all their talk about defying labels and not letting other people define you they certainly want to define everything about other people. Are you a woman who's interested in violent video games and cars? No, you're not a woman, you're a "demigirl." Are you a guy who likes fashion? Congrats, you're "bigender!" This also ties into the whole "transtrender" thing where people shove themselves into the trans box because social justice says so, especially when all they want to do is crossdress.


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (Oct 30, 2016)

Male Idiot said:


> I think the sex change will still have a big place, but simply as a fetish for those who just want to do it because it makes them horny. Jimmy will like to be whipped, Timmy likes to dress up as Pikachu to get off, and Tommy will want to be a chick with a dick.


I don't buy the idea that anyone would get the surgery to fulfill some fad or fetish. The level of dedication required makes that insane.


----------



## r00 (Oct 30, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> The level of dedication required makes that insane.



I think that's the argument.


----------



## AnOminous (Oct 31, 2016)

Alec Benson Leary said:


> I don't buy the idea that anyone would get the surgery to fulfill some fad or fetish. The level of dedication required makes that insane.



You ever seen the extreme body mods in bmezine?  People will do amazing shit for fetishes.


----------



## Vapour (Oct 31, 2016)

Honestly, I'm a little torn here. I understand people may not 'identify' as certain things and have a rough time because of it, simulatenously, I understand they may just want a dick and not want anything else associated with being a guy.

However, what I find curious is people who also employ logic about trans people not having to adhere to muscline stereotypes or clothing or even HRT. If it's not about wanting a dick (and ergo getting HRT) and it's not about wanting to do what guys do, then it's just how you feel about things. In which case, it's just an emotion. And someone saying "I don't think you're legitimate cause you do none of these things" isn't so much a hate crime towards a tranny as it is just kind of hurting their feelings. What I find the most objectionable is the being unable to question it, it's supposedly rude, or worse, "hate speech" to delve into or even suggest they may be putting it on or that the combination of logic makes being trans an emotion rather than a definitive thing they are.


----------



## D.Va (Nov 1, 2016)

I ended up with a lot of mutual tranny/nb friends on Twitter somehow and I feel like there's three distinct groups:

People with actual gender dysphoria -- especially XXY males -- who hate their body more than someone using the wrong pronoun
People who just feel they don't fit on the gender binary because they don't go clubbing, drink lager, watch football, etc.
The ones with a privileged upbringing in a first world country, have no dysphoria, but feel it is necessary to refit their identity so they aren't "normal".
The latter -- the transtrenders -- are the worst. It is easy to pick them apart from the other two as they are often incredibly narcissistic and political. They are the ones who use the word 'cis' in every situation, the ones who make the claims that reverse-isms don't exist, the ones who put _it/its,_ _ve/ver_ in their Twitter profile, etc. They are the ironic self-hating troopers who are several times more hostile to those outside their circle than someone with genuine dysphoria because it's the only thing that nets them friends.

Legitimate transpeople are unable to call this shitty behaviour out because this attitude is so contagious (it gives anyone a free pass to be a hypocritical asshole) and they don't want to lose all their friends for being a transphobe. Their reputation is more-or-less fucked by these children and they can't do anything about it.

As for the "non-binary" group, it's why I just don't believe in gender. The modern, mental definition of gender has a direct dependency on gender roles of the past, and without this dependency gender is just the combined sum of a person's hobbies and interests. The idea of cisgenderism only enforces this dependency because it relies on predefined notions of what masculinity and femininity is, and until there is a clear and objection-free way to separate someone who is 'cis' from someone not on the gender binary, this entire thing is lost on me.


----------



## KingGeedorah (Nov 1, 2016)

D.Va said:


> The latter -- the transtrenders -- are the worst. It is easy to pick them apart from the other two as they are often incredibly narcissistic and political. They are the ones who use the word 'cis' in every situation, the ones who make the claims that reverse-isms don't exist, the ones who put _it/its,_ _ve/ver_ in their Twitter profile, etc. They are the ironic self-hating troopers who are several times more hostile to those outside their circle than someone with genuine dysphoria because it's the only thing that nets them friends.


It's like being goth in the 80's-90's but with more angst and ball cutting.


----------



## WW 635 (Nov 1, 2016)

Sometimes I think about how great it would be to have a dick. I could totally pee on everything. However, I would not want to actually be a guy since guys are pretty gross tbh. That and @DNJACK would probably divorce me for growing a dick without caring that I got it so I could pee on stuff more easily.


----------



## DNJACK (Nov 1, 2016)

Id never divorce you <3


----------



## WW 635 (Nov 1, 2016)

DNJACK said:


> Id never divorce you <3


Good to know, especially since I burned dinner again. Also, we need a new shelf so I can buy more bathroom stuff.


----------



## DNJACK (Nov 1, 2016)

No


----------



## GolgoXIII (Nov 1, 2016)

Personally, something that I like to believe is that sexuality doesn't really exist. You can be straight, and still desire to have sex with someone of the same gender.

But gender identity? I'm not sure about that. I think that gender is a physical aspect of a person's identity, but defining it as more than that oversimplifies certain aspects of identity itself and places a much larger emphasis on how a person's physical appearance (more importantly, their genitalia) affects their overall identity than is probably healthy.


----------



## WW 635 (Nov 1, 2016)

DNJACK said:


> No


Babe, you have to understand that girls need bathroom stuff, like lotions and body scrubs. It wouldn't seem like so much to you if we just had another shelf to put my things on.


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (Nov 2, 2016)

D.Va said:


> gender is just the combined sum of a person's hobbies and interests.


This is absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## Positron (Nov 2, 2016)

Gender identity is as real as the mayonnaise I put on my sandwich -- and matters just as much to the rest of the world.


----------



## Zababa (Nov 2, 2016)

Gender identity was just an easy term decades ago to describe sex dysphoria to the general population.  You don't "identify" as a gender any more than you identify as a race or a sexuality.  You just have those traits.


----------



## neverendingmidi (Nov 2, 2016)

Zababa said:


> Gender identity was just an easy term decades ago to describe sex dysphoria to the general population.  You don't "identify" as a gender any more than you identify as a race or a sexuality.  You just have those traits.


Might want to talk to ADF or Rachel Dolezal about that...


----------



## Positron (Nov 2, 2016)

Zababa said:


> Gender identity was just an easy term decades ago to describe sex dysphoria to the general population.  You don't "identify" as a gender any more than you identify as a race or a sexuality.  You just have those traits.



Worse is the term "assigned":  you're not _assigned_ a gender; you're just born with one.

Even the medical establishment is guilty of this misconception:  the notion of "gender reassignment" is ridiculous because you cannot logically "reassign" something that wasn't "assigned" in the first place.


----------



## Zababa (Nov 2, 2016)

Positron said:


> Worse is the term "assigned":  you're not _assigned_ a gender; you're just born with one.


I can see the validity of the term assigned gender for ambiguous intersex babies, particularly in cases where they perform SRS.  Otherwise it's a load of horseshit.  Honestly the trans activist side of the community is so busy trying to keep up with PC language that they don't bother thinking about what's logical or useful to the people they're trying to help.


----------



## Male Idiot (Nov 2, 2016)

Positron said:


> Worse is the term "assigned":  you're not _assigned_ a gender; you're just born with one.
> 
> Even the medical establishment is guilty of this misconception:  the notion of "gender reassignment" is ridiculous because you cannot logically "reassign" something that wasn't "assigned" in the first place.



Even GodJesus can not resist a little trolling once in a while.


----------



## AnOminous (Nov 2, 2016)

Positron said:


> Worse is the term "assigned":  you're not _assigned_ a gender; you're just born with one.
> 
> Even the medical establishment is guilty of this misconception:  the notion of "gender reassignment" is ridiculous because you cannot logically "reassign" something that wasn't "assigned" in the first place.



Terms for troon-related shit have to change constantly because they're constantly changing their minds about what triggers them into spastic fits of retardation.


----------



## Pepsi-Cola (Nov 2, 2016)

It's really no coincidence that a lot of transsexuals were raised without much of a father figure, they never really had any major male role-model to teach them how to be men. With no real father figure to imprint on, they just sort of copy their mothers. This leads them to be effeminate little faggots, and instead of learning how to live with that adversity they transition into fake-women to escape their problems. 

Not to say that all trannies are like this, or that all males with little to no father figure are like this, it's just a trend I've noticed.


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Nov 2, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> Terms for troon-related shit have to change constantly because they're constantly changing their minds about what triggers them into spastic fits of exceptionalism.


That sounds like OCD and neuroticism just viewed through gender-related socialization.


----------



## Argonian Scum (Nov 2, 2016)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> That sounds like OCD and neuroticism just viewed through gender-related socialization.



No, it's all very deliberate. By constantly changing the rules and making things impossible to understand, trannies and rat kings become the sole authority on what is and isn't twansphobic. It's no different than a cult leader passing down interpretations of scripture that only they can read in order to get what they want from the congregation.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Nov 2, 2016)

Argonian Scum said:


> No, it's all very deliberate. By constantly changing the rules and making things impossible to understand, trannies and rat kings become the sole authority on what is and isn't twansphobic. It's no different than a cult leader passing down interpretations of scripture that only they can read in order to get what they want from the congregation.


I totally agree, but I think it's an unintended benefit brought about by mental illness, which has nothing to do with the feeling of being born in the wrong body.


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## Zababa (Nov 2, 2016)

Argonian Scum said:


> No, it's all very deliberate. By constantly changing the rules and making things impossible to understand, trannies and rat kings become the sole authority on what is and isn't twansphobic. It's no different than a cult leader passing down interpretations of scripture that only they can read in order to get what they want from the congregation.


I would say it's deliberate but for a different reason.  Every single word or expression in the trans community that gets targeted seems to be stuff that differentiates them from non-dysphoric people.  It's an active attempt to silence trans people that want to have their own community without getting co-opted by genderqueer trigender demisapiopansexual girls who don't want to transition.
I mean stuff like the term transsexual getting replaced by the "transgender umbrella" where nobody can agree on what it means, deeming the phrase "woman born in a man's body" problematic because "not all trans people feel that way"
Transsexuality is the cool oppressed club right now so SJ types want in and erasing differences between them and actual trannies is how they do it.


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## D.Va (Nov 4, 2016)

Bart_is_d'oh said:


> Personally, something that I like to believe is that sexuality doesn't really exist. You can be straight, and still desire to have sex with someone of the same gender.
> 
> But gender identity? I'm not sure about that. I think that gender is a physical aspect of a person's identity, but defining it as more than that oversimplifies certain aspects of identity itself and places a much larger emphasis on how a person's physical appearance (more importantly, their genitalia) affects their overall identity than is probably healthy.



Sexuality is definitely more fluid than people tend to believe, and in modern times terms like heterosexuality/homosexuality don't carry the weight anymore. Of course now it's resulted in genderspecials declaring themselves to be pan/demisexual/ace, etc, but I don't buy that. I've come to the conclusion that sexuality is really no different to a fetish.

Especially demisexuality which isn't a sexuality by definition. You like to build a relationship with someone before wanting to fuck them. Good for you. Join the club.


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## AnOminous (Nov 4, 2016)

D.Va said:


> Especially demisexuality which isn't a sexuality by definition. You like to build a relationship with someone before wanting to fuck them. Good for you. Join the club.



No shit.  How the fuck is this an orientation?  It's a strategy, a life choice.

I could claim so many imaginary SJW identities it's ridiculous.


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## neverendingmidi (Nov 4, 2016)

AnOminous said:


> No shit.  How the fuck is this an orientation?  It's a strategy, a life choice.
> 
> I could claim so many imaginary SJW identities it's ridiculous.


The only opposite I can think of for demisexuality is PUAsexuality.


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## Mimic (Nov 4, 2016)

Demisexuality is not an orientation.  It just means a person can think with their head instead of their genitals.


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## Male Idiot (Nov 4, 2016)

D.Va said:


> Sexuality is definitely more fluid than people tend to believe, and in modern times terms like heterosexuality/homosexuality don't carry the weight anymore. Of course now it's resulted in genderspecials declaring themselves to be pan/demisexual/ace, etc, but I don't buy that. I've come to the conclusion that sexuality is really no different to a fetish.
> 
> Especially demisexuality which isn't a sexuality by definition. You like to build a relationship with someone before wanting to fuck them. Good for you. Join the club.



I think there is a marked difference. Fetishes usually get stronger the older you are. Sexual preference on the other hand usually gets weaker. I think this explains why a lot of middle aged men had gay adventures when they got bored of their wives. They did their part in reproduction, now they just wanted to get their dicks in anything.


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## Beaniebon (Nov 4, 2016)

Intelligent Calcium said:


> And this is just a personal observation, but on average FtMs seem way better adjusted than MtFs.


Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Do you think it could have something to do with trans men passing pretty much seamlessly white trans women usually are pretty obvious? That might be part of it...


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## Nurse Jackie (Nov 11, 2016)

Most (young, at least) people who claim to be transgender are confused, rebelling, faking or whatever. I can't tell you how many people I know IRL and online that almost ruined their lives by almost transitioning. But I've also met a surprising amount that did transition, are many years into it, and only remain in the 'community' to talk about surgery details. 



Spoiler: powerlevel



When I was 4/5 and first learned that I would grow boobs and the such, it was my first experience with being furious with being born a woman. I pretty much begged and prayed for 'em to come off or never grow. Thus began a weird transition, non-medical of course, with as much ability as a child that young have. I.e. stealing my brothers clothes, chopping up my hair, general child bratty attitude. It was my big dream to have gender reassignment surgery. Didn't even know the word transgender. I only adopted it when I learned it.

So, in my eyes and experience, only people that have desired to present socially and physically from the beginning are legit. I am not accepted in the transgender community due to these views but I don't really give a shit, no one is going to be able to tell what the fuck I am in a few years.



So yeah. While I do believe resources/general acceptance make it so 'real' transgender individuals can transition, the majority of those exploring gender identities just need to accept that they just don't conform to gender roles. Actual gender dysphoria is not even remotely as fluid as sexuality, so the whole concept of only just realizing dysphoria/just acquiring it at an older age smells like bullshit. 

But y'know. That's how I perceive it. I'm open different perceptions, what others believe won't kill me.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Nov 11, 2016)

Beaniebon said:


> Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Do you think it could have something to do with trans men passing pretty much seamlessly white trans women usually are pretty obvious? That might be part of it...


It's a combination of things...
First you have to remember that male effeminate behavior is still openly shunned across the world; women that are more masculine are a lot more accepted than effeminate men. 
The second thing is that the thirst for attention, validation, and penis is very real among women, so among F2Ms it must be explosive.


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## Tragi-Chan (Nov 22, 2016)

Beaniebon said:


> Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. Do you think it could have something to do with trans men passing pretty much seamlessly white trans women usually are pretty obvious? That might be part of it...


 I could be wrong, but it seems to me that when a woman decides she's not special enough, she's more likely to go "gender non-binary" or "agender" or some snowflake crap than claim to be a man, whereas the men seem to favour going full trans. That is to say, the reason the MtFs seem more well-adjusted is because they're more likely to actually be serious about their identity. Whereas while plenty of the people who identify as transwomen are genuine, an awful lot of them, if not the majority, are just fuckups in dresses seeking a cheat code to get out of the mess that is their life.


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## TheImportantFart (Nov 23, 2016)




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## friedshrimp (Nov 23, 2016)

Hmm, I dunno, the concept of gender was coined by this guy who forced a traumatic experiment on a pair of twins that ended with their deaths...


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## D.Va (Nov 24, 2016)

friedshrimp said:


> Hmm, I dunno, the concept of gender was coined by this guy who forced a traumatic experiment on a pair of twins that ended with their deaths...


Damn, I nearly forgot about this. Watched the documentary years ago in school.

Mother fucking John "childhood sexual rehearsal play" Money.


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## TheImportantFart (Nov 24, 2016)

D.Va said:


> Damn, I nearly forgot about this. Watched the documentary years ago in school.
> 
> Mother fucking John "childhood sexual rehearsal play" Money.


@Patrick Buttman told that story in the Social Justice Warriors thread and I honestly thought I was reading the plot of a horror film rather than something which actually happened.


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## Vah (Nov 25, 2016)

Personally, I'm not quite sure. I do think there are lots of sociological aspects that contribute to a certain identity both sexes take on, but they're not entirely detached from biology.

Regardless, I think anyone should be allowed to express themselves how they like, whether it means liking tor participating in actions usually associated with the opposite sex without fear of being treated disrespectfully or as anything less than a person.

any gender other than male or female seem like bullshit though. like, congrats, you don't feel like you fit in with either stereotype of male or female. do you want a fucking medal?


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## Mayor Adam West (Apr 18, 2022)

Don't necro dead threads idiot!


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