# Professor WGA and Friends Guide to Science



## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 6, 2017)

I did say I would do this. And I'm Autistic enough to drop this down.

Over the past few weeks, we have seen the Rats double down on trying to shit up the internet by shutting down science. In fact, we know the troons got a major gender research facility shut down in Toronto. This was something people like Katherine Cross and Zinnia Jones had a hand in.

As an academic, no fucking more. It's time the Rat King gets hit with a weapon we have. Our autism and science.

And I'll start with a paper from an enemy of the Rat King, Dr. Kenneth Zucker.



Spoiler: Scientific Shit Here



INTRODUCTION
Children who meet the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria for Gender Dysphoria (or who show
marked gender-variant behavior but are subthreshold for the diagnosis) have been described in the clinical and research literature for over 60 years. In the early years, this literature focused almost entirely on children whose birth-assigned sex was male (e.g., Friend, Schiddel, Klein, & Dunaeff, 1954; Green, 1974; Green & Money, 1960). The more recent literature, however, has afforded more attention to females, which has identified both similarities and differences between girls and boys in diagnostic features and associated characteristics.

1 Girls are referred less frequently than boys for a clinical evaluation (Becker, Gjergji-Lama, Roger, & Möller, 2014; Wood et al., 2013) and, on average, at a later age (Cohen-Kettenis, Owen, Kaijser, Bradley, & Zucker, 2003). In two studies, the percentage of girls vs. boys who met the complete DSM diagnostic criteria for what was formerly termed Gender Identity Disorder (GID) did not differ significantly (e.g., Cohen-Kettenis et al., 2003; Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 200, but in a third study girls were more likely to be threshold for the diagnosis than boys (Steensma, McGuire, Kreukels, Beekman, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2013). On dimensional measures of gender-variant severity, girls, on average, appear to be more extreme than boys (e.g., Johnson et al., 2004; Steensma et al., 2014; Wallien et al., 2009; Zucker, Bradley, & Sanikhani, 1997). Despite
showing more extreme gender-variant behavior on dimensional measures, girls in the GID spectrum are subject to less peer ostracism than boys (e.g., Cohen-Kettenis et al., 2003;
Steensma et al., 2014; Wallien, Veentra, Kreukels, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2010)



Want the full 44 pages?

https://www.researchgate.net/public...th_Gender_Identity_Disorder_A_Follow-up_Study

This thread will be for any scientific studies, publication and research thesis pretaining to GID and other avenues toward it.

Because seriously, fuck the Rat Kings.

Update: here are some top items to put on along with the GID research or the woo research to tear apart.

Narcissistic behavior
Social behavior
Homosexuality
Crossdressing
The "Sissy" Phenomenon
Internet Culture
Call-out Culture
Child maturity, especially relationship in between male and female
Age of consent research
The correlation of autism and Transtrender or Transgender
Those would probably also help, along with the "Verboten Five" scientific studies.


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## unclestryker (Jul 6, 2017)

I would say sticky that shit. I don't want this to be buried.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 6, 2017)

unclestryker said:


> I would say sticky that shit. I don't want this to be buried.



I agree. Maybe one of the mods can do so?

A hat tip to @JSGOTI. 

I forgot about this article by The Atlantic about autism and trooning... And he referenced it in the new PeePee article about another troon that's being unbearable.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...ink-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/


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## Feline Darkmage (Jul 6, 2017)

unclestryker said:


> I would say sticky that shit. I don't want this to be buried.





WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> I agree. Maybe one of the mods can do so?



Sure, why not? I think it's enough within the spirit of the board that my old friend @chimpburgers would have pinned something like this if he were still around.

edit: moved to Deep Thoughts instead


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## Maiden-TieJuan (Jul 6, 2017)

Here was an interesting commentary in the Wall Street Journal.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120


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## Feline Darkmage (Jul 6, 2017)

http://askatruscum.tumblr.com/

The Rat King hates truscum because truscum are trannies that like a more scientific approach. 
So I'll put this blog in this thread as a resource.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 6, 2017)

Feline Darkmage said:


> http://askatruscum.tumblr.com/
> 
> The Rat King hates truscum because truscum are trannies that like a more scientific approach.
> So I'll put this blog in this thread as a resource.



I forgot about that Tumblr. It is a good place to have.

And Kylelyn Garrett claims only five researchers are in the field against troons. Nope.

Here is Dr. Doug Vanderlaan, PhD.



Spoiler: Research on GID among Samoans



Androphilia refers to sexual attraction toward adult males, whereas gynephilia refers to sexual attraction toward adult females. The kin selection hypothesis posits that androphilic males help kin increase their reproductive output via kin-directed altruism, thus offsetting their own lowered reproduction and contributing to the fitness of genes underpinning male androphilia. Support for this hypothesis has been garnered in several Samoan studies showing that feminine androphilic males (known locally as fa'afafine) report elevated willingness to invest in nieces and nephews in adulthood. Also, recalled childhood kin attachment and concern for kin's well-being are elevated among Canadian androphilic males (i.e., gay men) and positively associated with childhood feminine gender expression. This study examined whether these childhood patterns were cross-culturally consistent and associated with adulthood kin-directed altruism in a Samoan sample. Samoan gynephilic men, androphilic women, and fa'afafine (N = 470) completed measures of recalled childhood kin attachment and concern for the well-being of kin, recalled childhood gender expression, and willingness in adulthood to invest in nieces and nephews. Fa'afafine recalled elevated anxiety due to separation from kin relative to men and elevated concern for kin's well-being relative to both men and women. Within groups, these characteristics were most robustly associated with childhood feminine gender expression and willingness in adulthood to invest in nieces and nephews among fa'afafine. These findings are consistent with the kin selection hypothesis and the adaptive feminine phenotype model, which proposes that a disposition toward elevated kin-directed altruism among androphilic males is associated with feminine gender expression.



_Elevated Kin-Directed Altruism Emerges in Childhood and Is Linked to Feminine Gender Expression in Samoan Fa'afafine: A Retrospective Study_. 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311710491_Elevated_Kin-Directed_Altruism_Emerges_in_Childhood_and_Is_Linked_to_Feminine_Gender_Expression_in_Samoan_Fa%27afafine_A_Retrospective_Study 

This is the link to the full research. I'll see if I can get the notes from Doug himself, as he has it request only.


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## Wallace (Jul 7, 2017)

A problem faced with refuting Rat King claims is that a lot of studies take a long time to do, such as long-term follow-ups on the efficacy of gender reassignment surgery. The studies out now are from people who got the surgery in 2007-2009, and not really reflective of the current crop of trenders.

What I can take away from the link in the OP is the high degree of comorbidity of GID with other psychological problems. It gets back to the idea of whether dysphoria is a symptom or a cause of anxiety/depression.



Spoiler: TW: Long Neofreudian speculation



Online social groups are enriched for two traits: geeky interests and poor social skills, including autism. (After all, most normies aren’t spending their social lives online.) This group has a high sensitivity to rejection, since they’ve felt it in their lives before at school, and possibly even from their parents. This makes them vulnerable to emotional blackmail of this nature, specifically shame, due to their low self-esteem. (_q.v._ Geek Social Fallacy #1) This also would explain their knee-jerk reaction to anything the perceive as bullying, since they've been victims of it IRL. Ironically, they become bullies themselves, as the cycle of abuse repeats.

Fandom, trans, and social justice circles are very easy to get access to. All you need to do is speak the right cultural shibboleths, and you’re in. Now you have a group of friends that will bombard you with acceptance and soothe your frayed social phobia. To a geek, this type of attention can be very addictive, and they will do anything to keep it flowing—or prevent themselves from losing their supply, as the case may be. The wounded ego is unable to understand why they are not socially accepted in real life, which gives the id opportunity to seize the driver’s seat. Social standing within the group becomes an all-consuming drive to avoid experiencing the pain of rejection. In sufficiently intense cases, this even becomes a vessel for social competition. The more “woke” you are, the more status you have within the group. And since the members are so hungry for status, the competition becomes very intense indeed. Rational thought is abandoned if favor of securing more status.

Likewise, being trans explains away a good deal of your social problems. If you feel that people are out to get you, and you feel uncomfortable in your own skin or exhibit some gender nonconforming behavior, declaring yourself to be trans makes these problems suddenly make sense. Even better, it relieves you of the burden of responsibility for them. If it's a real condition that real psychiatrists have a name for, and real patients get treated for, then it’s everyone else’s fault that you feel shame. The world is to blame for your unhappiness, you’re a helpless victim. In this manner, the social fears are further allayed.

Troonhood also gives you a nearly unassailable motte, as we’ve seen so many rat king members use it. In order for their fear of rejection to be be soothed, the above conditions must always be true. Any suggestion that they are not trans, or that there is any way to react to people being trans besides immediate submission is met with narcissistic rage. The rat king therefore goes back to their motte, and claims that such ideas are harmful to them. It’s another type of emotional blackmail: “Do as I say, or I’ll be harmed”. Or alternatively, “you’ll be harmed”, since public shaming is the weapon of choice for the rat king. For the reasons outlined above, they consider this the most painful thing imaginable to inflict on someone.

We should also not overlook the vicarious virtue that comes with identifying yourself as a victim, or victim-by-proxy. In a community where identity is based on sentimental solidarity of remembered victimhood, people are increasingly desirous to wear the scars of others, almost as a badge of honor. This is especially true when society rewards victims with sympathy or money; this creates incentives to declare oneself as a victim, even in the absence of any personal experience of suffering or oppression. The average Rat King member firmly believes that roving gangs of Neo-Nazis could murder them at any moment in broad daylight, and no one would say a thing, due to their identity. They _want_ to believe this is true. They _need_ to believe this is true, because they benefit from this belief.

Troonhood further offers an outlet to cope with certain uncomfortable feelings. Adolescents struggling with sexual identity or repressed homosexual urges may manifest such feelings as self-loathing by drawing attention to their deviant sexuality. In the context of a group, this becomes not only a social signifier, but also the accepted way for people to process these feelings. Phil, for example, relies on presenting himself as being militarily trans to cope with the perceived rejection from his father. People with autism mimic this behavior, since they have learned that this is the way to express these feelings.

In summary, the rat king benefits the socially awkward and anxious in the following ways:

It gives them an easily obtainable sense of belonging.
It absolves them of responsibility for their actions.
It gives them social capital to strike back against outsiders.
It offers relief from anxiety about themselves by outsourcing it to a group identity.
It allows them to express repressed feelings of sexuality.

I have called this type of behavior cult-like in the past, and I maintain that this is the case. The rat king creates a state of emotional dependence on its members to protect their self-esteem. Going against them means that you value your own needs rather than the cause, and as we have seen so many times before, they love nothing more than shaming one of their own for wrongthink. This creates an atmosphere of fear. Similarly, the rat king emphasizes that the outside world is inherently harmful, because after all, the world hates you for being trans, and that they are only island of safety—despite the fact this escape route still has its own fear, as detailed above. The group further asserts control by encouraging its members to break off any relationships with people deemed transphobic for the most trivial of reasons, even close friends and family members. All of these are methods of cult control.

The bad news is that this means rat king members are not going to find appeals to reason or facts persuasive. Indeed, we've seen them react by accusing science of being transphobic or a tool of the patriarchy. They are too emotionally invested in the group to go against it, and will act irrationally to stay where they are. Regrettably, you cannot save people from themselves. The best we can do is offer an alternative that keeps people from diving in too deeply.

Further reading:
http://www.sba.oakland.edu/faculty/schwartz/pcrp.pdf
http://www.annelawrence.com/shame_&_narcissistic_rage.pdf
https://medium.com/@danmehdi/in-rea...s-and-prisoners-at-the-same-time-88ecac0fa3e6
https://medium.com/@danmehdi/why-do...e-we-need-robust-internal-debate-10e5b587e1de
https://aeon.co/essays/how-cult-leaders-brainwash-followers-for-total-control
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...istic-aloneness-when-coping-mechanisms-go-bad


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## Lorento (Jul 7, 2017)

Another big question is how many trenders actually go and see the doctor/therapist for their 'Dysphoria' and how many grow out their hair and don't bother shaving to claim that they are true and honest women. I'd be interested to see how many of the Rat King have actually seen specialists.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 7, 2017)

Lorento said:


> Another big question is how many trenders actually go and see the doctor/therapist for their 'Dysphoria' and how many grow out their hair and don't bother shaving to claim that they are true and honest women. I'd be interested to see how many of the Rat King have actually seen specialists.



Due to HIPAA in the USA and similar laws in the British Commonwealth System NHS, we won't know because of the laws. Basically the same basic privacy we enjoy with our doctor, they do as well. And unless it's related to census studies where doctors have to give general information, we may never truly know.


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## Lorento (Jul 7, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> Due to HIPAA in the USA and similar laws in the British Commonwealth System NHS, we won't know because of the laws. Basically the same basic privacy we enjoy with our doctor, they do as well. And unless it's related to census studies where doctors have to give general information, we may never truly know.



Oh I absolutely know and respect that fact, but it would still be most enlightening.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 7, 2017)

Lorento said:


> Oh I absolutely know and respect that fact, but it would still be most enlightening.



Agreed there. I would love to know the numbers. I also know these rats would gladly lie under oath to serve their cause, too.


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## Wallace (Jul 7, 2017)

Lorento said:


> Another big question is how many trenders actually go and see the doctor/therapist for their 'Dysphoria' and how many grow out their hair and don't bother shaving to claim that they are true and honest women. I'd be interested to see how many of the Rat King have actually seen specialists.



My guess is probably a low number. Most therapists are smart enough to recognize when people are faking it, and they don't give into emotional blackmail easily. Though that may no longer be completely true... 

Remember, these people _do not want to get better._ They want relief from their unhappiness, which won't happen until the underlying cause is treated. Their suffering is real, but they are coping with it in a very poor way.


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## Despairagus (Jul 7, 2017)

I don't remember where I read this, but I could swear I saw something that proved some sort of link between autism and transgenderism. Which does make sense, seeing as they're both conditions that affect how the brain functions and processes things.

I'd do some snooping around tumblr for info on troons with legit diagnoses, but that side of the site enrages me, so all I can really say is that from what I know of tumblr troons, the ones who post selfies rarely ever make any attempt to pass, and oftentimes are admittedly self-diagnosed (if they claim to have dysphoria at all). I think I've seen one transguy who got called out on "looking like a girl" (which imo he didn't, given what he had to work with) who had proof of having seen a therapist.


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## Wallace (Jul 7, 2017)

Despairagus said:


> I don't remember where I read this, but I could swear I saw something that proved some sort of link between autism and transgenderism. Which does make sense, seeing as they're both conditions that affect how the brain functions and processes things.



Here it is.


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## Elwood P. Dowd (Jul 7, 2017)

That didn't take long. 



Spoiler: large



Live Twitter thread, for anyone who cares.

Note who did the re-tweet in the first post.


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## cuddle striker (Jul 7, 2017)

fantastic thread. thank you for all this info.


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## Elwood P. Dowd (Jul 7, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> I
> 
> This thread will be for any scientific studies, publication and research thesis pretaining to GID and other avenues toward it.
> 
> Because seriously, fuck the Rat Kings.



Is there any correlation observed with testosterone levels and GID? Just curious given Baron-Cohen's study/repeated claims of high testosterone and ASD.

This study, excerpted below:



> This is the first study to test directly the prediction that fetal steroidogenic activity is elevated in autism. We find that amniotic fluid steroid hormones are elevated in those who later received diagnoses on the autism spectrum. Rather than the abnormality being restricted to a specific steroid hormone, a latent steroidogenic factor is elevated, which includes all hormones in the Δ4 pathway, as well as cortisol. This observation suggests dysregulation of pathways mediated by cytochrome _P_450-containing enzymes that catalyze the conversion of hormones along the Δ4 and glucocorticoid pathways. Prior evidence pointing toward the importance of such enzymes was previously found via genetic associations between autism and single-nucleotide polymorphisms in _CYP17A1_, _CYP19A1_ and _CYP11B1_genes.13



Critical article on the Baron-Cohen study, but it is the New Republic. Meaning it probably isn't worth a click.


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## Wallace (Jul 7, 2017)

Elwood P. Dowd said:


> That didn't take long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey, what do you know? I was right.

Hi Zack! Have you considered talking to a therapist? They really are quite helpful.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 7, 2017)

Elwood P. Dowd said:


> Is there any correlation observed with testosterone levels and GID? Just curious given Baron-Cohen's study/repeated claims of high testosterone and ASD.
> 
> This study, excerpted below:
> 
> ...



I'll have to look at papers more, but that is a good question.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 7, 2017)

Also, hi Zachary. We're not off to a bad start. You're already triggered. Get used to it, because I'm far from done.


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## Wallace (Jul 8, 2017)

Here's another one for you.

The Online Disinhibition Effect

"What causes this online disinhibition? What is it about cyberspace that loosens the psychological barriers that block the release of these inner feelings and needs? Several factors are at play. For some people, one or two of them produces the lion's share of the disinhibition effect. In most cases, though, these factors interact with each other, supplement each other, resulting in a more complex, amplified effect."


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## Jaimas (Jul 8, 2017)

I've brought this up in previous threads, but in preparation for this article on Lolcow Wiki when the site first launched, I had to do a great deal of research. I knew from experience that medically-defined transpeople are absolutely a thing, and in 99.9% of cases are content to transition and then be left the fuck alone. This new wave of allegedly-transgendered people who shriek about "transmedicalists" and "truscum" and never shut the fuck up about their trans status, as a result, immediately set off warning bells for me. This is the exact behavior medically-diagnosed transpeople I had interviewed actively tried to avoid.

So I decided to look into it, and give them the benefit of the doubt. I thought to myself: "Surely, all these claims of being genderspecials is not the result of them all playing pretend, otherwise we are looking at the mass delusion of thousands of idiots and a movement that is genuinely destroying the ability to advocate for transpeople. There must be more to it." So I did the logical thing and for months (off and on when not working on said article) wound up repeatedly staring at allegedly peer-reviewed "studies" that allegedy proved the whole 57 genders thing, as well as the ones that claimed you didn't need to be dysphoric to be trans.
_
Every single one_ was fundamentally flawed on some basic level: Either having no control groups, the studies being backed by people who had a stake in the results showing that this gender insanity was normal, coming from a paper mill (read: publication that will claim _anything_ is peer reviewed if you throw money at them), having improper sample sizes (One sample group consisted of _11 people_), having peers review that were openly biased, improper citations, sources that didn't prove what they were claiming (and often the opposite), and in at least one case, the person behind the study _self-peer reviewing_.

Almost all of these reports were (and are) locked behind paywalls as well, requiring you to have a school's backing or pay about $10-50 per study (depending on the source), a common practice with studies done when those doing them have zero faith in their own statistics (Anita Sarkeesian's own cited studies, for example, are _similarly _paywalled and loaded with absolute nonsense).

I've periodically checked other studies that come down the pipe trying to establish the whole 57 genders thing and likewise the "you don't need dysphoric to be trans" angle. Not one has thus far passed muster and I am now entirely sure that both are entirely a load of bunk. If anyone else on the Farms wants to take a crack at these fucking things, feel free.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 8, 2017)

@Jaimas, I agree on the paywall stuff. It's why I use the resources I have via ResearchGate and other academic portals.

The paywall stuff is bunk, at best. And at worst, psuedoscience. I think we grab what we can overall, dissect it, and see what the hell is actually feasible.

And honestly, what does it for me, overall, is the fact that the Rat King dismisses everything without using the fine tooth comb that you do. And you also bring up a point...

A lot of the research does seem to be "control for brief period and release" and repeat. Which does seem like sloppy work. So is what the Rat Kingers are doing, as well. Spreading feels as actual facts and science.

So, where do we all find middle ground?


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## multiverse (Jul 8, 2017)

@WeaponsGradeAutism did you get a chance to archive the Dr. Kenneth Zucker stuff, and trans activists leaning on his clinic until he was fired and it was closed?

Here's a bit more on that fiasco. Emboldended by their ability to get a long standing and respected child gender dysphoria researcher fired and his work disgraced, the troon crew next set its sights on a upcoming conference of academics. Dr. Zucker was due to speak there, but the troons shrieked until he was disinvited, then decided to speak over every academic at the conference because c_is people just need to sit down and listen_. The doctors who help them, and have studied gender dysphoria for decades, they don't know shit according to the troons. Any doctor who fails to meet the troon crew's demands is ostricized and their research denigrated.

Here is the very well researched NY Magazine article on the downfall of Dr. Zucker's extremely well respected child gender clinic. His crime? Observing over 20 years of research that if you're just chill around kids who express gender nonconformity and don't immediately box them into one gender stereotype or another, 80-90% of them end up comfortable in their birth gender. For this research, troons accused him of running a "gay conversion therapy" or " trans deprogramming" outfit, the likes of those found in Jesus Camps, rather than an actual doctor doing research - not interfering, research - for decades.

There's apparently a BBC documentary about the troons' need to destroy all science behind gender dysphoria to have a field of "science" that's nothing but their views. Here's an article about the documentary.

If anyone can find a copy of the BBC documentary "Transgender Kids: Who knows Best?" I would be deeply grateful.


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## multiverse (Jul 8, 2017)

I can't add this as a quote to the above, but I'm sure a moderator can merge them. This is from a post I made earlier, in continuation of the issues with Dr. Zucker's clinical "wait and see" model:

Troons refuse to believe in the "wait and see" model of child gender issues, and instead insist on the "listen and act" or "gender affirmative" model... despite there being no clinical support that "gender affirmative" is the clinically correct one. Troons like to continuously scream that if you don't listen to them and just affirm a child's gender in the moment and allow them to transition asap, you're killing trans children via the terrible suicide rate. Except wait, a long term study of trans suicide rates post transition surgery shows that the suicide rate goes_ UP_:






So the only clinic that was still doing actual research into child dysphoria was closed down by a baying pack of troons hell bent on transitioning any and all kids with gender dysphoria despite that being dangerous and hasty according to experts, who protested the closing of this research and treatment facility but couldn't stand up to the tide of angry troons.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 8, 2017)

Another thing to add. Any of the 32 gender flavor papers seem to come from diploma mill or liberalized places of academic learning. And I don't mean politics. I mean actual "accredited" places that give a pass to students for a quota diploma.

Something to keep in mind when you research those papers, folks. Blanchard and Zucker have degrees and continuing education from the US and Canada.

And @multiverse, Dr. Zucker's stuff is safe at ResearchGate. And Zachary and his troon (Transtrender Loon, Zachary. That's a freebie. It'll be a dollar per word next time.) cant do shit about it staying around. ResearchGate is a peer review for academics, doctors and legit reporters.

And last I checked... Zachary is NONE of those.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Jul 8, 2017)

We really need to get together with a real therapist or psychotherapist to develop techniques that will help to counter the malignant, male narcissism that is so pervasive among these disgusting men.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 8, 2017)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> We really need to get together with a real therapist or psychotherapist to develop techniques that will help to counter the malignant, male narcissism that is so pervasive among these disgusting men.



Agreed. I'm putting feelers out to any of the folks in the community to do so. Maybe the others who frequent here could do the same.


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## Wallace (Jul 8, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> Agreed. I'm putting feelers out to any of the folks in the community to do so. Maybe the others who frequent here could do the same.



Could you elaborate on what you mean by "counter"? If your intent is to use data against them, I don't think it's going to work. Reason don't work well against feelings.


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## Mariposa Electrique (Jul 8, 2017)

Wallace said:


> Could you elaborate on what you mean by "counter"? If your intent is to use data against them, I don't think it's going to work. Reason don't work well against feelings.


I would say, to find one of their weak spots and exploit it through psychology.


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## Despairagus (Jul 9, 2017)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> I would say, to find one of their weak spots and exploit it through psychology.



Good luck with that. I truly mean it. Troony folk don't tend to change their minds on anything unless it's convenient for the current sjw mindset.


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## cuddle striker (Jul 9, 2017)

The weak spot of any narcissist is going to be either SHAME, or LACK OF ATTENTION.

Narcissists cannot manage feelings of shame. An insult to them that strikes home causes overwhelming feelings of shame and self-hate, causing them to lash out. This is the one time they can't control their behavior for "the audience", and will show their true colors. You can find plenty of research into narcissistic rage/shame response in the literature. The problem is that this trigger will vary, it'll be unique to each person.

Lack of attention or response is also a trigger but it's impossible to do with the ones that have amassed a following of people who don't know them well, since they are adept at dropping old friends and grabbing new ones. Narcissists are very facile and superficially charming, and for a little while they can convince almost anyone to give a little attention and build up their ego.


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## multiverse (Jul 9, 2017)

resonancer said:


> Lack of attention or response is also a trigger but it's impossible to do with the ones that have amassed a following of people who don't know them well,


It's also how the troons got a foothold in feminist and academic circles. Out of confused politeness, when those groups were confronted about troons not leading abortion marches or research groups, they were told, "well of course your voice matters and we will be supportive, but [insert "you are not a doctor" | "this march isn't about trans rights today" | whatever]..." and that single attention foothold is what dismantled female spaces and academia on gender dysphoria.

The only way to NOT give them that attention is to tell them no, in this case, your voice doesn't matter and isn't welcome. And then ignore the resulting, noisy, strop. But when they have big social media followings, then they sicc them on you for being The Worst Person Of All Time™ (or branded a TERF, which they've made into a powerful social weapon) and will do everything in their power to ruin you personally and professionally. THAT is the problem to get around, taking that particular power to ruin lives away. Without that they'd just be crazies on the street corner begging for change.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 9, 2017)

If any other brain can grab some notes about the following.


Narcissistic behavior
Social behavior
Homosexuality
Crossdressing
The "Sissy" Phenomenon
Internet Culture
Call-out Culture
Child maturity, especially relationship in between male and female
Age of consent research
The correlation of autism and Transtrender or Transgender
Those would probably also help, along with the "Verboten Five" scientific studies.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 9, 2017)

And to start with number 8.

http://www.apa.org/education/k12/brain-function.aspx



Spoiler: What do we know about brain maturation?



Children learn in different ways. And although the maturity of the brain is an important factor when it comes to learning differences, the real story is more complicated than that. The way children learn depends on age, level of development and brain maturity. Learning differences are also related to genetics, temperament and environment, but in this module we will focus on how and when the brain matures.



Why is brain maturation important? Because no reasonable scientific study is going to say a 5 year old boy knows he wants to be a girl. Hence why Zucker and Blanchard used "wait and see."


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## Feline Darkmage (Jul 9, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> Because no reasonable scientific study is going to say a 5 year old boy knows he wants to be a girl. Hence why Zucker and Blanchard used "wait and see."



Yeah, at 5 I would never have been sure about myself. I was never sure about needing to transition until puberty started. That's just a personal anecdote, though it definitely works in the "wait and see" framework.


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## Despairagus (Jul 9, 2017)

Feline Darkmage said:


> Yeah, at 5 I would never have been sure about myself. I was never sure about needing to transition until puberty started. That's just a personal anecdote, though it definitely works in the "wait and see" framework.





Spoiler



I have to agree with this 100%. Most people I know didn't experience severe dysphoria until after secondary sex characteristics (breasts, facial hair, and the like) started developing. In many cases it seems you can look back and say "oh well now these weird things from my childhood make sense" but until you live as an adult (or post puberty at least) as your birth sex you really have no chance to know whether or not it's right.

S' just what I think, though. Sorry for the rant.


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Jul 9, 2017)

For everyone who claims that "trans the gay away" is not a thing and that the increasing of child gender clinics is a pure coincidence.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ntation_A_Longitudinal_Population-Based_Study

a study of nearly 5000 adolescents in _Developmental Psychology, _on the topic of gender nonconforming behavior in childhood and its correlation with adolescent homosexuality

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/34926/1/Singh_Devita_201211_PhD_Thesis.pdf

A Follow-Up study of 139 Boys With Gender Identity Disorder


More studies/research here (not right wing/christian sites):

https://www.transgendertrend.com/
https://4thwavenow.com/
https://youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org/

These are people who criticize the increasing transing of children and the use of dangerous drugs like gnrh agonists to prevent puberty.


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## Wallace (Jul 9, 2017)

There's a couple of accounts in the above links that describe the current explosion of transtrenders as a reaction to hypersexualized teenage culture, and I think this may be the case for many people.

Here's another paper for the library: Moral outrage alleviates guilt and buffers threats to one’s moral identity, and here's a summary of the major points in plain English.


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## multiverse (Jul 9, 2017)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> https://youthtranscriticalprofessionals.org/


The latest blog post on this page is fascinating; the account of a mother whose daughter is a bit of a "seeker", who seems to mindmeld with whatever diagnosis she's currently after. Friend had an eating disorder? She developed bulimia. Still felt out of place? BPD diagnosis. She didn't like the BPD diagnosis, so convinced herself she had gender dysphoria and was "non-binary". Still didn't like the bpd diagnosis, she was autistic, complete with new stimming behaviors at 16. Godbear bless the autist doctors, who were the only professionals in this whole story that said "yeah, you're not autistic, you're just kind of needy."

Then she finally got her act together around age 18, enrolled in University, is a weird and bookish but otherwise normal young woman. This is what happens to the majority of youths seeking help, if the medical teams don't let them drive. And she was given almost every diagnosis she craved, except for autism. When that was withheld, and she got into a structured college prep course, she got better.

Here's an article intended to be a resource after the closure of the CAMH Gender Identity Clinic. Its a collection of the child gender study results by Dr. James Cantor. The studies took place between 1972 and 2013, and the results are telling: the vast majority of the children are either regular gay males or lesbian females, or straight and confirmed in their birth gender. This has been proven over 3 decades of research; the thing that changed by 2008 was that trans activists were narcissistically injured by these results and demanded they be scrapped for a system more pleasing to their anxiety.



 



The Wallien, M. S. C., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (200 study and the Steensma, T. D., McGuire, J. K., Kreukels, B. P. C., Beekman, A. J., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2013) study are quite different from all previous results; can anyone pull them so we can check them out?

Lastly, something Dr. Zucker did at CAMH was to encourage the parents not to push their own agendas and assumptions on to their child. When a child says "I hate my penis", you have to ask them questions about what it is they hate about penises and their penis, not immediately assume they're trans and need treatment for that. Does their penis hurt? Are their clothes too tight? Has someone touched their penis? Do they feel sexual urges and they don't like it? Do they associate penises with some kind of male action that upsets them (anger, poor emotional behavior, etc)?

Can we grab this article? "Ethical Concerns About Emerging Treatment Paradigms for Gender Dysphoria."

Another doctor whose work may be worth looking into: Dr. Eric Vilain (that last name is gonna trigger the troons like whoa). He's the guy who actually checks down to the genetic level and has seen there are not 57 genders.


 

Quote from Dr. Vilain:


----------



## Elwood P. Dowd (Jul 9, 2017)

*I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.*

Honking long article, so link only.


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## multiverse (Jul 9, 2017)

Here's a study within the article, on transgender being innately biological verses a psychological condition.


 

This is one of the weird things about academic studies - 70% or more of the subjects demonstrate that transgenderism is social and not biological? Better conclude the opposite, because at most 30% of subjects did indicate a biological root.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 9, 2017)

multiverse said:


> Here's a study within the article, on transgender being innately biological verses a psychological condition.
> View attachment 245257
> 
> This is one of the weird things about academic studies - 70% or more of the subjects demonstrate that transgenderism is social and not biological? Better conclude the opposite, because at most 30% of subjects did indicate a biological root.
> View attachment 245258



This is one of the reports that @Jaimas was talking about where the results may be skewed to a social bent. YMMV on these. But it's good to have it to look at and dissect with honesty.


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## Wallace (Jul 9, 2017)

Elwood P. Dowd said:


> *I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.*
> 
> Honking long article, so link only.



The doctor's original article should be linked too.

Gender Dysphoria in Children and Suppression of Debate



> Gender dysphoria (GD) of childhood describes a psychological condition in which a child experiences marked incongruence between his experienced gender and the gender associated with his biological sex. When this occurs in the prepubertal child, GD resolves in the vast majority of patients by late adolescence. Currently there is a vigorous albeit suppressed debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD in children. Modeled after a paradigm developed in the Netherlands, it involves pubertal suppression with gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists followed by the use of cross-sex hormones—a combination that will result in the sterility of minors. *A review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is rooted in an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long- standing ethical principle of “First do no harm.”*


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## Jaimas (Jul 9, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> This is one of the reports that @Jaimas was talking about where the results may be skewed to a social bent. YMMV on these. But it's good to have it to look at and dissect with honesty.



A good example of this in action was really, _really_ apparent during GG's heyday. It's kind of long, but for the purposes of discussing how these studies get misused by ideologues, it might be a good thing to check out:



Spoiler: Words



During GG, every one of the "Gamers are Dead" articles linked to a Tumblr article by one Dan Golding, basically using it as the central citation in their "Gamers are Over" horse-shit. Dan Golding, it turns out, works for a think-tank known as DIGRA, which originally started as a group that studied video games and electronic trends from a clinical perspective and was actually quite well-renown, before it was captured by third-wave feminist ideologues around 2008.

One of the studies used by DIGRA to push the need for representation in video games was one that wound up proving, ironically, the exact opposite. In this particular case, the study flat-out disproved the need for gender representation in video gaming. This wasn't the answer that they wanted, so the creator of the study wound up basically doing it again, citing the previous study despite the fact that it flat-out disproved their original talking points and claiming it did anyway. This was done to begin a push towards forcing Game Devs to get on board the diversity bandwagon.



In this example, we can see a pretty cut-and-dry case of a group with an ideological agenda deciding, apropos of nothing, that facts do not apply. By basically altering the wording, they essentially used data that _openly disproved their talking point_ to state that their point was proven. You can see this shit _all the fucking time_ in Social Justice-based studies, alongside citations that have _absolutely nothing to do with what they're claiming they do_.

Take this behavior to its logical extreme, and you get shit like the infamous UN CVAWG Report.


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## Wallace (Jul 10, 2017)

Anecdotal, but still:






On leaving the trans cult



> The fact that some “trans women” are violent, misogynist men who make no attempt to try to blend in with other women really destroys the “brain sex” theory and the “born in the wrong body” theory. These men are clearly not women. It doesn’t make any sense that such men try to convince everyone that they’re women. The only explanation possible for violent, misogynist men claiming to be women is so they can get into women’s spaces to prey on us and so they can get cookies and attention. It’s obvious their real goal is to infiltrate when you look at their activism. They make no attempt to create spaces for trans women or to advocate for shelters, employment and housing for trans women. All they do is try to get into women-only spaces. And they are indeed getting lots of attention from the media, the medical profession, and from gender activists.



Transgender Reality



> In these groups, teenagers who feel uncomfortable with their bodies and adults with depression and anxiety are coached–yes, coached–into thinking the source of their discomfort is a lifelong dysphoria that can only be corrected via sterilizing cross-sex hormones and, often, disfiguring surgeries.
> 
> You may not believe that this coaching or recruitment happens, or maybe you’ve already had experience with it.  Either way, this blog aims to show evidence that transgender groups online are actively recruiting children, pressuring children and young adults to make irreversible bodily changes as young as possible, and turning them away from any family members or friends who do not support every aspect of transgender ideology.
> 
> ...


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 11, 2017)

Updated OP with the list. Also, excellent work, you autists.


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## KerryDixon9 (Jul 11, 2017)

multiverse said:


> If anyone can find a copy of the BBC documentary "Transgender Kids: Who knows Best?" I would be deeply grateful.



https://sanet.cd/blogs/myhdstore/bb..._knows_best_p_hdtv_x_aac_mvgroup.2179062.html

The Nitroflare links have been deleted but the Rapidshare links are good.


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## Chemical snorfare (Jul 11, 2017)

multiverse said:


> Here's a study within the article, on transgender being innately biological verses a psychological condition.
> View attachment 245257
> 
> This is one of the weird things about academic studies - 70% or more of the subjects demonstrate that transgenderism is social and not biological? Better conclude the opposite, because at most 30% of subjects did indicate a biological root.



Its even worse than that.

Assuming this wasn't a separated twins study, it shows that 70%+ showed no biological influence, while 30% could just have easily been social, as correlation is not causation.

The twins who were both trans were brought up by the same family I presume?

I checked the link and as they were self selecting and knew they were "trans twins" its pretty obvious they were raised in the same environment.

So this study shows that in 30% of families you can influence all your children into becoming trans, while in 70% of families your only batting a 1 in 2 average.


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Jul 11, 2017)

A conversation where an *actual scientist* debunks troon pseudo-biology,  their "but intersex people!1!" and troons have opposite sex brains argument:

https://trannosphere.tumblr.com/post/162694774586/debunking-trans-ideological-pseudo-biology-links
Large pictures and lots of science :


Spoiler



troon ally spews troon pseudo science:





The intersex argument and using animals (!) to explain that human biology:





Shitlord Scientist explains how the real world works:








Dicks dicks dicks





More troon "arguments" and Scientist is having none of it:


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Jul 11, 2017)

Also for every troon  who claims an inverted penis is the same as an actual vagina:
https://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2180-9-102
microflora of the penile skin-lined neovagina in male-to-female transsexuals

They found lots of poop bacteria, mold (!) and other stuff actual women get infections from.

*Also THIS: *_Although this was not a study criterion and therefore not scored, *a foul smell of the vagina was observed in most patients. *_
Dickholes smell gross. No wonder if you look at the bacteria they found:

*Quotes:*

_Based on Gram stain the majority of smears revealed a mixed microflora that had some similarity with bacterial vaginosis (BV) microflora and that contained various amounts of cocci, polymorphous Gram-negative and Gram-positive rods, often with fusiform and comma-shaped rods, and sometimes even with spirochetes. _

_On average 8.6 species were cultured per woman. The species most often found were: Staphylococcus epidermidis, Streptococcus anginosus group spp., *Enterococcus faecalis*, Corynebacterium sp., Mobiluncus curtisii_ and _Bacteroides ureolyticus_. Lactobacilli were found in only one of 30 women.

_There was however a highly significant correlation between the presence of E. faecalis on the one hand and sexual orientation and coitus on the other (p = 0.003 and p = 0.027 respectively)._
(that means gay troons had more poop inside their dickholes_)_
_
There was however a highly significant correlation between the presence of E. faecalis and sexual orientation: in heterosexual transsexual women (having a male partner) E. faecalis was present in *78.6%* while it was only present in *14.2% *of homosexual transsexual women and in *12.5%* of bisexual transsexual women (p = 0.003). Equally there was a significant correlation between E. faecalis and the occurrence of regular coitus with a male partner: in those having regular coitus E. faecalis was present in 75% while in only 25% of those not having coitus (p = 0.027).
_
*Conclusion:*
_Our study is the first to describe the microflora of the penile skin-lined neovagina of transsexual women. It reveals a mixed microflora of aerobe and anaerobe species usually found either on the skin, in the intestinal microflora or in a BV microflora

the environment of this penile skin-lined neovagina, does not support the growth of lactobacilli _(stuff actual vaginas have)_. This might be due to the absence of glycogen rich epithelial cells and to the absence of lactobacillus epithelial binding sites that are upregulated by oestrogen in the normal vaginal mucosa.

No proper advice can be given at present with regard to optimal vaginal hygiene in transsexual women._
So these guys are stuck with stinky inverted dicks.

Also here a dickhole picture:


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## talk talk talk (Jul 11, 2017)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> There was however a highly significant correlation between the presence of _E. faecalis_ and sexual orientation: in heterosexual transsexual women (having a male partner) _E. faecalis_ was present in *78.6%* while it was only present in *14.2% *of homosexual transsexual women and in *12.5%* of bisexual transsexual women (p = 0.003). Equally there was a significant correlation between _E. faecalis_ and the occurrence of regular coitus with a male partner: in those having regular coitus _E. faecalis_ was present in 75% while in only 25% of those not having coitus (p = 0.027).



Hypothesis: MTF troons are 5.5 times more likely to take it up the butt, thus spreading E. faecalis from the rectum to the neovagina.

#analrips indeed


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## multiverse (Jul 11, 2017)

Chemical snorfare said:


> Assuming this wasn't a separated twins study, it shows that 70%+ showed no biological influence, while 30% could just have easily been social, as correlation is not causation.


Yeah, I'd really like to get into the data; it's obvious that the conclusion doesn't match the data due to bias and forcing the data to match the hypothesis (and doing a laughably terrible job since even laypeople without data access can see the issues with the conclusion.)

Do these troon apologists have to hand in the data set along with the paper? If so we might be able to take a closer look.

edit:


Sinners Sandwich said:


> troon ally spews troon pseudo science:



Tatiana needs to get in this thread immediately.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 11, 2017)

A paper produced in the 1980s in Denmark. The writer is Thorkin Søensen.

This covers narcissism in the transvestite and transsexual mindsets.



Spoiler: Transsexualism as a nosological unity in men and women



The importance of a careful phenomenologic elucidation of the condition is emphasized as a necessary precondition of the diagnostic demarcation, of creating the necessary contact with the transsexual, and necessary as a starting point for a therapeutic effort. The phenomenologic difference between the two transsexual sexes is emphasized by comparison with two narcissistic character types, both described by _Wilhelm Reich_– the passive feminine character and the phallic narcissistic character. Both the transsexual male and female are characterized by an insecure gender identity. The transsexual male reacts to this insecurity and anxiety by withdrawing to conceptions of living in a submissive over-aesthetical femininity. Aggressive and libidinal powers are pushed away from the consciousness, resulting in the often observed pseudo-femininity in transsexual males. The transsexual female, on the other hand, seeks to subdue a similar insecure gender identity by obtaining ego-satisfaction in adoption of strong outer attitudes and actions. She takes on a caricatured masculine attitude. It is shown how these phenomena are reflected in the sexual area. The transsexual man does not find the sexual genital satisfaction important, while the transsexual woman, on the contrary, is genitally fixated and preoccupied with sexual display.



Wew lads and laddies. Read that whole spoiler. It seems Søensen predicted modern day issues.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0447.1980.tb00573.x/full


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 11, 2017)

Hi, first time here,

Unless you have ethical issue using it, sci-hub will get through almost any paywall to access peer reviewed research papers. You have access to much more content than researchgate.

After reading the thread, I cant remember seeing any papers by Paul McHugh. He is one of the most renown psychiatrist of the 20th century. He is probably the most important expert in the field.  The Tranz tried to marginalize his message but so far they were not able to shut him up. He worked at the John Hopkins sex reassignment surgery for years. From one of his opinion piece: ``At Johns Hopkins, after pioneering sex-change surgery, we demonstrated that the practice brought no important benefits. As a result, we stopped offering that form of treatment in the 1970s. Our efforts, though, had little influence on the emergence of this new idea about sex, or upon the expansion of the number of “transgendered” among young and old. `` from http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/ .

Him and Lawrence Mayer (Mayer is a very accomplished biostatisticien) published together a literature review on the subjet. There is an executive summary that is quite handy is one does not want to go through the whole article. One thing that I find very sad and actually dont remember seeing in any scientific publication prior is this :

``In the course of writing this report, I consulted a number of individuals who asked that I not thank them by name. Some feared an angry response from the more militant elements of the LGBT community; others feared an angry response from the more strident elements of religiously conservative communities. Most bothersome, however, is that some feared reprisals from their own universities for engaging such controversial topics, regardless of the report’s content — a sad statement about academic freedom.``http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/executive-summary-sexuality-and-gender

Another few people who really were pummeled by the trans are Micheal Bailey who wrote the Man who would be Queen. He is a journalist that made more available the research of Ray Blanchard on autogynophilia (fetichist men turn on by wearing women clothes). The scholar Alice Dreger who wrote a defense of Bailey got also caught in the rampage. She resigned her position after being censored. You can find her story here:  http://alicedreger.com/in_fear .

I am sorry I did not have the time to read all the material posted and analyse it in details but I thought you might find these few additions useful.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 11, 2017)

To pursue on the idea of narcissic rage brought before by another poster, I think the paper by Anne Lawrence is pretty juicy.
Lawrence, Anne A. "Gender assignment dysphoria in the DSM-5." _Archives of sexual behavior_ 43.7 (2014): 1263-1266.
``Here is what I hypothesize: Some persons with GD— especially a vocal group of late-transitioning MtF transsexual activists—do not like being reminded that they have chosen to live in a gender role that is inconsistent with their biologic sex. They appear to experience such reminders as inflicting narcissistic injury (Kohut, 1972; see also Lawrence, 200. They seemingly would prefer to believe that their biologic sex is indeterminate, arbitrary, or unimportant, that they suffer from some subtle, undiagnosed neurologic intersex condition, or both. These activists would predictably applaud the implication—inherent in the wording of the new diagnostic criteria for GD—that by undergoing sex reassignment, they have merely cast off their original inappropriately assigned gender and taken on a new appropriately assigned gender that is congruent with their gender identity. This gender-focused reframing of their condition facilitates their denial of the unpleasant reality of their biologic sex.`` 

Also from am earlier paper by Anne Lawrence 
Lawrence, Anne A. "Shame and narcissistic rage in autogynephilic transsexualism." _Archives of Sexual Behavior_ 37.3 (200: 457-461.

``In this essay, I argue that much of the MtF transsexual campaign against Bailey can be understood as a manifestation of narcissistic rage. It is no coincidence, I believe, that most of Bailey’s principal opponents fit the demographic pattern associated with nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism (see Lawrence, 2007). I propose that nonhomosexual (i.e., presumably autogynephilic) MtF transsexuals are probably at increased risk for the development of narcissistic disorders—significant disorders in the sense of self—as a consequence of the inevitable difficulties they face in having their cross-gender feelings and identities affirmed by others, both before and after gender transition. As a result, many autogynephilic transsexuals are likely to be particularly vulnerable to feelings of shame and may be predisposed to exhibit narcissistic rage in response to perceived insult or injury. ``

Now Anne Lawrence is a psychologist, sexologist and anesthesiologist who is also a transsexual. She wrote extensively on the subjet.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 11, 2017)

@Slippery Bogle, don't forget the links on the reports. Otherwise, welcome aboard this mad project.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 11, 2017)

@WeaponsGradeAutism
The papers of Anne Lawrence are behind a paywall.  Once I figure how the whole platform work I can upload the whole pdf but I was not sure of your policy and did not want to get this site in troubles with copyright infringement. Thanks for the welcome  : ) Hopefully I can be helpful.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 11, 2017)

@multiverse 

Can we grab this article? "Ethical Concerns About Emerging Treatment Paradigms for Gender Dysphoria."

yes, I hope you can see the pdf attachment. sorry...newbie...sight


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## multiverse (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> @multiverse
> 
> Can we grab this article? "Ethical Concerns About Emerging Treatment Paradigms for Gender Dysphoria."
> 
> yes, I hope you can see the pdf attachment. sorry...newbie...sight


You! I like you! Thanks!


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## Casta Spersions (Jul 12, 2017)

Hello kiwis! Extensive lurker here, VERY interested and well read on the topic at hand which inspired me to sign up and offer my two cents.

Firstly, you should be able to find the BBC documentary on archive.org.

Secondly, I believe the kryptonite for this movement will be the early transition and pre-pubertal suppression of gender dysphoric children.  There is one aspect of those treatment which I have seen virtually no discussion on and it is a very significant side effect.

We could talk about the bone damaging effects of lupron (a cancer drug) on pre pubescent children, but I've certainly seen it discussed by gender critical folks and concerned parents.  We could talk about the ethical ramifications of sterilizing children, or the dangers of long term artificial hormone use but again, we wouldn't be the first.

I'd like to address the fact that these children who take blockers and then cross sex hormones, will remain sexually immature for life.  They won't develop a libido, and though their bodies will grow and they will develop secondary sex characteristics, they will never experience orgasm and I doubt they will know sexual pleasure, even.  It gets a bit squicky talking about children in this context but understand that these are life long side effects; when these children become adults, their reproductive systems will remain stunted.  Estrogen will not mature a pre pubescent penis and neither will surgery.  People like Zinnia and many other adult troons who were allowed to experience their sexuality (and indeed, make it known how important it is to them) advocate for children becoming permanently sexually stunted without a second thought for their well being.  I mean, in a sense, these children won't know what they are missing, but this hardly seems ethical.  You'd have a very hard time convincing me that a child understands the ramifications of being an adult without functioning genitalia of either sex, or a poor approximation of.  A child simply cannot understand or consent to that, nor should they!

If anyone is watching I am Jazz this season you can see exactly how this medical therapy plays out.  In consultations with SRS doctors she is asked "Are you orgasmic?" and Jazz makes it clear and even openly states she has no libido.  The sad thing is, everyone is acting like she just hasn't developed that way yet, and it will happen in the future, or perhaps when the surgery is complete.  Yet they've determined Jazz won't be getting any taller, and is likely finished developing for the most part - these discussions are taking place just shy of her 16th birthday.  Jazz does not even seem to know who she is sexually attracted to - I maintain this is because her primary sex characteristics, her reproductive system, was never allowed to mature.

There WILL be lawsuits, we will probably see this in the next five to ten years.  I actually believe this is why drugs like lupron are so astronomically expensive; they have the liability built into the price.  Lawsuits won't undo the damage of being medical guinea pigs on very dangerous drugs.  Troons will argue these drugs have been used "safely" for years; for older teens this may be true, but putting pre pubescent children on lupron and then administering cross sex hormones at 12/13 is in fact, a new practice.  Keep in mind that no long term studies of children who have taken blockers then cross sex hormones exist, to my knowledge.  Children who were given lupron for precocious puberty in the eighties are now adults, many with significant health issues:
https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Women who were prescribed this for endometriosis and IVF share their experience, as well as men who took the drug for prostate cancer:

https://rxisk.org/lupron-a-nightmare-produced-in-abbvie/

There WILL be a backlash, and it can't come soon enough...


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## multiverse (Jul 12, 2017)

Part of the Lupron issue - out of so many issues - is that because precocious puberty is so rare in general, AND because mostly female children are affected by it, there's almost no data on what it does to male children 10-15 years after treatment. And what it's done to female patients by the time they're in their 20s is horrifying:





It's much more common for male children to present gender dysphoria - but who knows what Lupron is doing to their bodies.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 12, 2017)

For all old and new researcher autists, Sci-Hub is NOT verboten. A lot of woo science is hidden behind unnecessary pay walls. So, my stance.

Woo Science that needs a thrashing is fair game.
A lot of paywall science may actually not be paywall, check before using Sci-Hub.
Go through ResearchGate and it's ilk first.
Use Sci-Hub as a last resort for legitimate research.
If it's something you think @multiverse, @Jaimas and I can get through request, then let us know.
Do not use Sci-Hub's address in here. Miss Elbakyan has a hard time keeping an address because of the paywall bastards.
These guidelines will be added to the OP after a while. And if there is any nagging questions, don't hesitate. We may be grumpy autists around here, but we're a helpful bunch after the same cause.

Just be sure to keep everything neat so @Feline Darkmage doesn't have to fall on her sword for us. We like our kitten overseer. Let's make sure we keep her happy.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 12, 2017)

1982 paper by Søensen as a follow-up for his 1980 paper. He is joined by Herben Pretoft in this study.



Spoiler



Since the first sex-reassignment operation in Denmark at the Rigshospitalet in 1951, a total of 37 patients, 29 males and 8 females, have had sexmodifying surgery and a change in legal status. In our experience a basic insecure gender identity is a predominant trait in transsexuals, dating back to earliest childhood. This insecurity and a concomitant anxiety are overcome differently by the two transsexual sexes. In male transsexualism, the most outstanding characteristic is a narcissistic withdrawal to a condition marked by submission and pseudofemininity.



https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01541980?LI=true

PDF is attached and acquired legally for all to dissect and discuss.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 12, 2017)

What seems lacking is a sociological study on the impacts of a very small minority on the hijacking of the public discourse and resulting censorship even of respected professionals. There are some case studies like the article of Alice Dreger on Michael Bailey and many anecdotal reports but no systematic study of the phenomenon.  It really is a form of McCarthyism but from the left. It seems the narcissistic rage of the few manage to terrorize a whole section of the population into silence and widely spread opinions are suddenly marginalized. And maybe that is true of others issues, but it seems much more systematic with this one.  It seems that traditionally, both the left and right ends of the political spectrum at least shared one common value, freedom of speech. Anyhow, if anyone can point to one such sociological study that would be very useful methink. Not that there is not sometimes very legitimate reasons to censor some form of speech when clearly it does harm, for example child porn. But in this case, censorship comes more from the terror campaigns lead by a minority of mentally ill men than any legitimate reasons. Unless you buy into that saying a man is a biological adult male and a woman is a biological adult female kills troons. Which is nonsense because its a neutral, objective statement of facts. Imagine an African American going bonkers because a Caucasian remarks his skin is paler...You look at Greek or Roman sculptures, or even much older art depicting men and women and there is a reason they did not feel the need to put a label saying this is a man, this is a woman. Are we going to destroy the meaning of every words we use to refer to obvious material realities, apple, dog, cat...?

Anyhoo, the transgender activist Andrea James who went after Dreger and Bailey : _'' Ms. James was one of many transgender women who were deeply offended by Michael Bailey’s 2003 book, The Man Who Would Be Queen. But Ms. James was notable for the way she decided to go after Bailey’s children to extract revenge. She posted on the internet photographs of Bailey’s daughter and labeled her a “cock-starved exhibitionist.” James also claimed in her online publications that there “are two types of children in the Bailey household,” namely “those who have been sodomized by their father [and] those who have not.”_ http://alicedreger.com/in_fear
created a huge headache at wikipedia for promoting pedophilia and generally stalky behaviors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchiveHebephilia :

``_Jokestress/Andrea James has repeatedly acted inappropriately at the talk page of the Hebephilia article. Often, she's either attacking User:James Cantor/James Cantor or making demands. James Cantor is someone that she should generally have no contact with while on Wikipedia, by the way. Check their user pages, Wikipedia biography articles, and the Hebephilia talk page for why that is. In this section, not only did she demand that editors start doing what she wants done with the article, but also suggested that we are doing a disservice to Wikipedia by not revealing our true (real life) identities while editing this topic. When editors understandably did not take kindly to her comments, naming some offenses she has committed off Wikipedia, she decided to respond with more venom and tamper with others' talk page comments. _``

How a person with such an unethical background is invited as a public speaker and not in jail?  And what are Andrea qualifications for being such a expert? From her own webpage:

_''After graduating with a Master’s Degree in English from University of Chicago, I wrote ads for ten years at top Chicago agencies. My ads for blue-chip clients premiered on the Super Bowl and other major television events, where they were frequently among audience favorites.''_


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## Wallace (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> What seems lacking is a sociological study on the impacts of a very small minority on the hijacking of the public discourse and resulting censorship even of respected professionals. There are some case studies like the article of Alice Dreger on Michael Bailey and many anecdotal reports but no systematic study of the phenomenon.  It really is a form of McCarthyism but from the left. It seems the narcissistic rage of the few manage to terrorize a whole section of the population into silence and widely spread opinions are suddenly marginalized. And maybe that is true of others issues, but it seems much more systematic with this one.  It seems that traditionally, both the left and right ends of the political spectrum at least shared one common value, freedom of speech. Anyhow, if anyone can point to one such sociological study that would be very useful methink. Not that there is not sometimes very legitimate reasons to censor some form of speech when clearly it does harm, for example child porn. But in this case, censorship comes more from the terror campaigns lead by a minority of mentally ill men than any legitimate reasons. Unless you buy into that saying a man is a biological adult male and a woman is a biological adult female kills troons. Which is nonsense because its a neutral, objective statement of facts. Imagine an African American going bonkers because a Caucasian remarks his skin is paler...You look at Greek or Roman sculptures, or even much older art depicting men and women and there is a reason they did not feel the need to put a label saying this is a man, this is a woman. Are we going to destroy the meaning of every words we use to refer to obvious material realities, apple, dog, cat...?
> 
> Anyhoo, the transgender activist Andrea James who went after Dreger and Bailey : _'' Ms. James was one of many transgender women who were deeply offended by Michael Bailey’s 2003 book, The Man Who Would Be Queen. But Ms. James was notable for the way she decided to go after Bailey’s children to extract revenge. She posted on the internet photographs of Bailey’s daughter and labeled her a “cock-starved exhibitionist.” James also claimed in her online publications that there “are two types of children in the Bailey household,” namely “those who have been sodomized by their father [and] those who have not.”_ http://alicedreger.com/in_fear
> created a huge headache at wikipedia for promoting pedophilia and generally stalky behaviors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchiveHebephilia :
> ...



My guess is that this would be another case of narcissistic rage. Anything that threatens the source of narcissistic supply--in this case, being recognized as special and deserving of special dispensation due to being trans--must be destroyed by whatever means necessary. Liberal politics are once again used as a fig leaf that excuses these attacks or masks the emotional extortion that the rat king regularly employs.

Narcissism has increased noticeably in the last several years, particularly among college-age students. My current theory is that this is linked to the rise in people of this age group claiming to be transgender, starting from previous studies that show high degrees of comorbidity between GID and other personality disorders:

Personality Disorders in Persons with Gender Identity Disorder

The frequency of personality disorders in patients with gender identity disorder

How Our Culture of Narcissism Creates Trans Obsessions



> Trans movements and arguments of orientation remove responsibility for our actions from our own shoulders. Every person is simply who they are. And it is no longer our job to fit into society for the betterment of others, it is society’s job to fit us in and make us happy. The appeal of this narcissist culture is obvious. Our errors and transgressions are no longer our fault, but merely manifestations of a repressive social model. Everything we are or do is right, has to be right, because it is a true expression of ourselves.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 12, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> 1982 paper by Søensen as a follow-up for his 1980 paper. He is joined by Herben Pretoft in this study.
> 
> 
> PDF is attached and acquired legally for all to dissect and discuss.



From what I got, the male transexuals had a fairly good control of their behaviors at the time the study was made: _``Of the male transsexuals, 55 % show strong or extremely strong ability to control impulses and drives (again, 100% in the core group, which is not surprising since they were characterized by good ego strength and lack of genital sexual satisfaction). As a rule, there is a parallel moderation of aggressive and libidinal drives, yet s*ome of the males had more difficulty controlling aggressive than libidinal impulses.*`` _
One of the thing to ponder about is that the 80s were quite a different time. I would say these guys had to control their behaviors to fit in and be accepted. And they had no social medias platform to act out. There were a lot more environmental pressure to behave. The conditions of this social experiment have changed markedly.

Here is the article by Lawrence (200 publicly available. Again its a case study based on the  Bailey affair but she argues rather convincingly that it was fuelled by narcisstic rage.  But there are no solid study, like some sort of epidemiological study, or even a group study, documenting it:

_What conclusions can be drawn from the foregoing analysis? First, I propose that there are good theoretical and clinical reasons for believing that narcissistic disorders are prevalent among nonhomosexual MtF transsexuals. At present, however, there is little solid empirical evidence to support this belief. I suggest that this would be a promising area for additional research, especially because the results could have important clinical implications. Meanwhile, clinicians and scholars should perhaps be more aware that angry reactions they elicit from nonhomosexual MtF transsexuals might represent narcissistic rage, rather than mature, instrumental anger. This awareness might aid in interpretation and also facilitate empathy.
_
So basically, it seems the public is the experiment in which we allow the troons to act out their undiagnosed rage. Maybe people should know it too, not just clinicians and scholars.


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## GS 281 (Jul 12, 2017)

I have been lurking this thread and it certainly is unique. One thing I think is important is that we don't let hyperbole or a misunderstanding of research methods intrude on efforts to understand what we are trying to understand. Also, I am seeing a lot of literature here where we are accepting conclusions that seem to conform to what seems to be what the general consensus on KF regarding trannies is, but without the same level of scrutiny placed on the research methods of scholars that are disagreed with. Also, there is a lot of anecdotal discussion in this thread related to research that does not conform. I grabbed this post as an example.



Jaimas said:


> So I decided to look into it, and give them the benefit of the doubt. I thought to myself: "Surely, all these claims of being genderspecials is not the result of them all playing pretend, otherwise we are looking at the mass delusion of thousands of idiots and a movement that is genuinely destroying the ability to advocate for transpeople. There must be more to it." So I did the logical thing and for months (off and on when not working on said article) wound up repeatedly staring at allegedly peer-reviewed "studies" that allegedy proved the whole 57 genders thing, as well as the ones that claimed you didn't need to be dysphoric to be trans.



This is a rather significant accusation to make, and without being involved in a journal or conference, it would be quite difficult to call into question whether or not published research was peer-reviewed or not. Generally, the standard is double-blind peer-reviewed. All this "allegedly" stuff suggests that @Jaimas has discovered something that would be rather difficult for him to discover.

_


Jaimas said:



			Every single one
		
Click to expand...

_


Jaimas said:


> was fundamentally flawed on some basic level: Either having no control groups, the studies being backed by people who had a stake in the results showing that this gender insanity was normal, coming from a paper mill (read: publication that will claim _anything_ is peer reviewed if you throw money at them), having improper sample sizes (One sample group consisted of _11 people_), having peers review that were openly biased, improper citations, sources that didn't prove what they were claiming (and often the opposite), and in at least one case, the person behind the study _self-peer reviewing_.



First, coming back to this whole thing about peer-review, how did you find out that the study was "self-peer reviewed"?

If you have a list of these studies I would love to go through them with you, @Jaimas, because a lot of these things you deem as fundamental flaws sound like they could probably not be problems at all. For example, this thing about not having control groups. Most research won't. You only need control groups in experimental research. If you're doing some sort of correlation research or qualitative research, then there wouldn't be a need for control groups. Control variables will be used in like modeling, but thats entirely different. Having a sample of 11 people is generally accepted in experimental and qualitative research. You aren't going to go out and interview 100 people for a qualitative study, that would be dumb. The standard for doing t-tests in experimental research is small group sizes. You can have groups of 4-6 people no problem. You're just testing the significance of the difference in mean scores. 



Jaimas said:


> Almost all of these reports were (and are) locked behind paywalls as well, requiring you to have a school's backing or pay about $10-50 per study (depending on the source), a common practice with studies done when those doing them have zero faith in their own statistics (Anita Sarkeesian's own cited studies, for example, are _similarly _paywalled and loaded with absolute nonsense).



This is is a strong mischaracterization of why it is that the "paywalls" exist. These institutes that run these journals, especially the prestigious and well-respected journals need money. They need it so they can edit, publish, maintain some administration, subsidize the cost of yearly conferences, support current research through grants, etc. This all costs money. On the flip side, the predators will charge researchers to publish and run their shit open access. So the question sorta becomes, do you trust an academic source more because they're open access? You really shouldn't because they're trying to cash in, not advance a field of study. This is more a conspiracy theory with no basis in reality.



Jaimas said:


> I've periodically checked other studies that come down the pipe trying to establish the whole 57 genders thing and likewise the "you don't need dysphoric to be trans" angle. Not one has thus far passed muster and I am now entirely sure that both are entirely a load of bunk. If anyone else on the Farms wants to take a crack at these fucking things, feel free.



I would argue that exploring gender theory where gender is beyond the scope of our biology and more social and psychological phenomenon is valid, and that I have seen studies expressing the idea of gender as a measurable trait of an individual which would pass muster.

I'm not trying to attack anyone or this thread. Just wanted to express how we could probably be more convincing, accurate and precise.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 12, 2017)

yawning sneasel said:


> I have seen studies expressing the idea of gender as a measurable trait of an individual which would pass muster.
> 
> I'm not trying to attack anyone or this thread. Just wanted to express how we could probably be more convincing, accurate and precise.





I would like some references to support your point. Which study would pass muster? Which gender attributes are measurable and observable which cannot be attributed to a social construct?  It seems the same critic you have can be said of your post. I think it would be very interesting and enlightening to look at the methodology of the studies you refer to and we could all look at them critically.

If @Jaimas could provide the references to some the studies he mentioned, that would be great. They may be there but I did not see them. 

To know if a journal is peer-reviewed, easy, check the journal policy. No need to be in the in crowd. Typically, proceedings from conferences are not peer-reviewed though the findings may be reviewed in-house (aka Bob-Next -Door, can you check if I got this right before I make an idiot of myself).

The characterization as to why many journals are being paywall is pretty accurate: make money.  Which is why so many researchers switch to open access. I invite you to read this paper in Nature . Elaborating on this seems to go beyond the scope of the thread. But here is an excerpt:

_''Commercial publishers are widely acknowledged to make larger profits than organizations run by academic institutions. A 2008 study by London-based Cambridge Economic Policy Associates estimated margins at 20% for society publishers, 25% for university publishers and 35% for commercial publishers3 . This is an irritant for many researchers, says Deborah Shorley, scholarly communications adviser at Imperial College London — not so much because commercial profits are larger, but because the money goes to shareholders rather than being ploughed back into science or education.`` _


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## GS 281 (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> Which study would pass muster?


To "pass muster" the purpose of a study would need to be related to a current body of research and respond to a question where new knowledge would need to emerge from the analysis of data. The data analyzed would need to come from research procedure that are generally accepted for the research method and design selected, and the design of the research should be such that it would support response to the research question.



Slippery Bogle said:


> Which gender attributes are measurable and observable which cannot be attributed to a social construct?


You snipped out the part of my sentence where i say _I would argue that exploring gender theory where gender is beyond the scope of our biology and more social and psychological phenomenon is valid, _which would make it clear that I accept it as social construction. That doesn't make gender study and theory based on gender and gender attributes any less valid.  So I don't understand why you are asking for what you are asking here.



Slippery Bogle said:


> To know if a journal is peer-reviewed, easy, check the journal policy. No need to be in the in crowd. Typically, proceedings from conferences are not peer-reviewed though the findings may be reviewed in-house (aka Bob-Next -Door, can you check if I got this right before I make an idiot of myself).


I would contest this. It is important to have people skilled in research methods and knowledgeable in a body of research performing peer review. Poor journals aren't going to have leaders in a field performing peer review. Often, they will have people from countries with lower academic standards than they have in the West. You're typically going to see better and more relevant research in Academy of Management than the Journal of Knowledge Management, Economics and Information Technology.



Slippery Bogle said:


> The characterization as to why many journals are being paywall is pretty accurate: make money. Which is why so many researchers switch to open access


With many open access journals, the researcher themselves is paying to get published. There is a thread on this idiot named Ashu who is involved in something like this. I also suggest looking up the Clute Institute. There are a lot of good open access journals and its a model we should be moving towards, but by and large, when you look at predatory journal listings, most are open access. On the flip side, most that are behind the so-called "paywall" are research institutes that are associated with Universities or research institutes. 

I would argue that there is much, much greater fuckery going on with the open access ones than the "paywall" ones, and it isn't because they are open access, but because they are looking to cash in on people who need to publish and cannot get published in "paywall" journals. Look at this list.

http://beallslist.weebly.com/

If you want to see an example of one of these predators, look at the JKMEIT.
http://www.scientificpapers.org/what-you-need-to-know-about-submitting-scientific-papers/
Search here for more https://doaj.org/. These journals by and large are pretty low quality. Open access would be nice but there are other concerns and frankly if you want to get a hold of an article, just email a researcher and he will likely slide it to you. Also, people are putting stuff up on researchgate and academia.edu and personal college pages.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 12, 2017)

Both of you have good points all around, @yawning sneasel and @Slippery Bogle.

Sneasel is right in that we err on the side of caution with reports. Honestly, we should make sure we comb through every report we get. Even the 32 flavor gender ones need to be evaluated for posterity.

And again, use ResearchGate, Academia, and the college open pages. Then, paywalls like Taylor or Springer have some reliable reports all around.

And from what I've seen, yes, woo science hides behind a pay wall. Legitimate reports do too, but it's mainly a lot of older reports that do. And even then, money is used for the archive upkeep.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 12, 2017)

yawning sneasel said:


> To "pass muster" the purpose of a study would need to be related to a current body of research and respond to a question where new knowledge would need to emerge from the analysis of data. The data analyzed would need to come from research procedure that are generally accepted for the research method and design selected, and the design of the research should be such that it would support response to the research question.



I said ``*I would like some references to support your point. *Which study would pass muster? Which gender attributes are measurable and observable which cannot be attributed to a social construct? ....I think it would be very interesting and enlightening to look at the methodology of the studies you refer to and we could all look at them critically.``  It seems my question was ambiguous. I will rephrase it: What studies were you specifically referring to that pass your idea of muster?

It seems that one of the points we are trying to clarify here is what is man and what is a woman. It is certainly one of the main political agenda of the transgender lobby to change the definition of what people have understood for as long as we have an historical record. Is there any valid reasons for changing definitions on which the vast majority of the population are agreeing upon? In the absence of valid reasons, is not not some sort of collective gaslighting from the translobby? Is the narcissistic rage directed at people not willing to comply for example to the pronouns police justified?


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## AnOminous (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> Also from am earlier paper by Anne Lawrence
> Lawrence, Anne A. "Shame and narcissistic rage in autogynephilic transsexualism." _Archives of Sexual Behavior_ 37.3 (200: 457-461.



"Narcissistic rage" is a pretty perfect summation of the mentality of the raging troon cows we feature here, especially Greta.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 12, 2017)

AnOminous said:


> "Narcissistic rage" is a pretty perfect summation of the mentality of the raging troon cows we feature here, especially Greta.



It really is, friend. And Greta has gone to lengths for his rages, including visiting Null.


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## GS 281 (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> `*I would like some references to support your point. *


Not to be a dick, but what point do you mean? The point of the quoted paragraph in question was that it is valid to investigate gender as a social and psychological phenomenon. I am not trying to sound like a prick in asking this, but why do you want me to post references to articles where gender "cannot be attributed to a social construct" when I believe that it is in part a social phenomenon?


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 12, 2017)

yawning sneasel said:


> Not to be a dick, but what point do you mean? The point of the quoted paragraph in question was that it is valid to investigate gender as a social and psychological phenomenon. I am not trying to sound like a prick in asking this, but why do you want me to post references to articles where gender "cannot be attributed to a social construct" when I believe that it is in part a social phenomenon?



That is actually a good point. If a social phenomenon, which avenues should we look in, in your opinion?

Also, @Slippery Bogle, if you two want to hash something out, talk in conversation. This thread isn't the place. Infighting is the enemy of true information.


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## Jaimas (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> I would like some references to support your point. Which study would pass muster? Which gender attributes are measurable and observable which cannot be attributed to a social construct?  It seems the same critic you have can be said of your post. I think it would be very interesting and enlightening to look at the methodology of the studies you refer to and we could all look at them critically.
> 
> If @Jaimas could provide the references to some the studies he mentioned, that would be great. They may be there but I did not see them.
> 
> ...



It was like back in 2014, man. I haven't gone down that rabbit-hole since.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 12, 2017)

Jaimas said:


> It was like back in 2014, man. I haven't gone down that rabbit-hole since.


A rabbit hole sounds like a nice venue by comparison. Controversial topics are rarely fun fields to dwell in. Thanks for your reply and hopefully the references will come back to memories.


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## Jaimas (Jul 12, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> A rabbit hole sounds like a nice venue by comparison. Controversial topics are rarely fun fields to dwell in. Thanks for your reply and hopefully the references will come back to memories.



I tend to be anal-retentive with data collection. I'll see if I have any of the PDFs on one of the backup drives.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 12, 2017)

Inspired by Buffalo Bill and his cringe humor, why don't we go ahead and bring in some Maslow?




 

https://m.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html



			
				Excerpt from Abraham Maslow said:
			
		

> Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a motivational theory in psychology comprising a five tier model of human needs, often depicted as hierarchical levels within a pyramid.
> 
> Maslow (1943, 1954) stated that people are motivated to achieve certain needs and that some needs take precedence over others. Our most basic need is for physical survival, and this will be the first thing that motivates our behaviour. Once that level is fulfilled the next level up is what motivates us, and so on.
> 
> This five stage model can be divided into deficiency needs and growth needs. The first four levels are often refered to as deficiency needs, and the top level is known as growth or being needs.


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## AnOminous (Jul 12, 2017)

Lolcows are notable for having their Maslow's hierarchy completely ass backwards, where asspats are more important than food and shelter.  See, e.g., Potato Phil.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 13, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> Inspired by Buffalo Bill and his cringe humor, why don't we go ahead and bring in some Maslow?
> 
> View attachment 246771
> 
> https://m.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html



Well, my thoughts on this are not very charitable. I think most of the autogynophilic toons who seems to be the ones to act out have a truncated Maslow pyramid. They just have the two first layers in mind. Its pretty weak in the belongingness and intimacy because I dont think they relate to others as people, only as providers of things they need or want. Which would fit as well with being narcissists. I think that's why they don't get at all the idea of boundaries. Most normal folks understand that heteros are repulsed by the idea of intercourse with the same sex and its the opposite for gays. That's is pretty much a non-negotiable for most people and everybody gets along if nobody try to groom, shame or manipulate you into something that disgusts you. Its pretty much a universal human understanding among decent people of pretty much any religions or political views. But what the toons internet brigades do? Respect people? Of course not. Lesbians tell them no, we dont want your dicks. What toons do? Massive lesbians shaming campaigns.

 There was a time where pervs of all shapes and colors understood that their special tastes were things that repulse most others people and you had to be at least private and polite about it and not plaster them everywhere on the net to convince others to like it. You kept the sex and pervy books in the special cabinet as to not be found by your visiting 12 years old nephews and nieces. Because that is what decent people do when they have considerations for others. Now every self-absorbed, self-promoting snowflakes think he is so edgy by grossing out the populace and try to have you validate the flavor of the month perversion. Oldschool gays and lesbians fought for the right to a private life, not to shovel down your throat their lifestyle. And critically, you did not target kids and teens at the time they figure on their own their sexuality. Sex education was about risks prevention for STDs and pregnancy not on how to dilate your anus, because anal sex is one of the most risky thing you can do in term of disease transmission. That's a pretty long rant just to say the vocal toons are mostly a sick bunch of narcissists who give no shit to what not morally impaired folks believe which is DO NO HARM.

Mayo clinic definition of narcissistic disorder: _``Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for admiration and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of ultraconfidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.``_


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## AnOminous (Jul 13, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> Most normal folks understand that heteros are repulsed by the idea of intercourse with the same sex and its the opposite for gays. That's is pretty much a non-negotiable for most people and everybody gets along if nobody try to groom, shame or manipulate you into something that disgusts you. Its pretty much a universal human understanding among decent people of pretty much any religions or political views. But what the toons internet brigades do? Respect people? Of course not. Lesbians tell them no, we dont want your dicks. What toons do? Massive lesbians shaming campaigns.



I haven't seen it again, but I read in some pop sci magazine fairly recently that sexual attraction actually partly disables the region of the brain that ordinarily causes disgust.  Disgust at things like contacting the bodily fluids or blood or waste or potentially infectious organic material of any kind is a natural self-protection mechanism.  However, sex involves contact with all this kind of stuff, so there has to be a mechanism to turn off disgust to make it palatable.

So people are generally disgusted by sex, but not when it's something they're actually attracted to, like their own preferred gender or fetishes or whatever.

At some point in human growth, people's sexual preferences become more or less fixed, so yelling at them for having them is stupid, which is why stupid people like troons are the kind of people who constantly shame people for being normal, while at the same time flaunting the most disgusting, creepy practices imaginable.


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## Jan_Hus (Jul 13, 2017)

Maslows is why we have things like free breakfast for all students and free/reduced lunch for those who need it. It's literally impossible to do anything without basic needs being fulfilled.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 13, 2017)

Jan_Hus said:


> Maslows is why we have things like free breakfast for all students and free/reduced lunch for those who need it. It's literally impossible to do anything without basic needs being fulfilled.



It's basically a Human Need Hierarchy. No food, no energy. No energy, no production. Inability to work/produce, inability to socialize/procreate normally.

Somewhere in this chain, the Rat King Squad is neglecting the basic steps. For example, Spud can't even feed himself properly, but HAS to get a poorly done tattoo. The question is now... What makes a Rat King member different than a transgender person who does succeed in life.

Sometimes, it could be as simple as someone needing to reconnect their needs.


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## Slippery Bogle (Jul 13, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> The question is now... What makes a Rat King member different than a transgender person who does succeed in life.
> 
> Sometimes, it could be as simple as someone needing to reconnect their needs.



To see a pattern, comparison groups are needed. First I think autogynophiles and homosexual transgenders have to be treated separately because they really are different (anyway if we assume Blanchard typology works). By the way, Michael Bailey books The Man Who Would Be Queen is available for free in pdf. Then high profile trans like say the Wachowski, Julia Serano, Lynn Conway, Anne Lawrence, Bruce Jenner can be compared to Rat Kings. My first guess would be that the saving grace of some of these guys are work ethics and highly marketable skills (lots of trans in IT). Even if you are not the nicest person on the planet, if you got good impulse control and can afford a comfortable life, you have lot more opportunity to retain a partner which will bring a stabilizing influence in your life. If you got no talent and no work discipline, you are out of luck.


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## Scratch This Nut (Jul 13, 2017)

I don't know as much about this as I really should but this is a very good thread.  Thing is that some ot the people cited here fall into the camp of treating the crazies like Phil and Stefonknee as normal examples of trans people and treating them all as invalid.   Calling those people out and questioning if they're legitimate or not doesn't make you a bigot.  I said it before, but I feel really bad for actual transgender people because nobody seems to know what that means anymore.


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## Wallace (Jul 14, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> To see a pattern, comparison groups are needed. First I think autogynophiles and homosexual transgenders have to be treated separately because they really are different (anyway if we assume Blanchard typology works). By the way, Michael Bailey books The Man Who Would Be Queen is available for free in pdf. Then high profile trans like say the Wachowski, Julia Serano, Lynn Conway, Anne Lawrence, Bruce Jenner can be compared to Rat Kings. My first guess would be that the saving grace of some of these guys are work ethics and highly marketable skills (lots of trans in IT). Even if you are not the nicest person on the planet, if you got good impulse control and can afford a comfortable life, you have lot more opportunity to retain a partner which will bring a stabilizing influence in your life. If you got no talent and no work discipline, you are out of luck.



Narcissism and impulse control are not things you see together often, especially when you add estrogen to the mix. Comparing a Rat King member to a normal transgender person, the former has a lot of other personality problems acting against them, along with an environment that exacerbates them. Any dysphoia is far more likely a symptom rather than a cause.


----------



## Slippery Bogle (Jul 14, 2017)

I am not sure if it was said earlier, Lynn Conway had the most hands in getting Kenneth Zucker sacked . From her page:

_``[*Note: Zucker's carefully-built facade as a 'scientific authority' was deconstructed in 2011-12 by the Ph.D. research of Y. Gavriel ('Gavi') Ansara and his faculty advisor Peter Hegarty in their quantitative empirical study "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008", published in the journal Psychology & Sexuality.  Ansara and Hegarty's investigation documented that authors from mental health professions were significantly more trans-pathologising than authors from other professions, and identified Zucker as the leader of an 'invisible college' of group-think researchers who collectively-exploited such pathologising language to impose their discriminatory gender ideology on scientific thought about children's genders. In 2012, Ansara won the American Psychological Association's Transgender Research Award for this research.]`` _

That sounds pretty bad, right?

The Ansara and Hegarty's paper is not behind a paywall and can be find here.  It would be really nice if somebody else than me would have a crack at it. The abstract:



Spoiler: abstract











So they did a literature review,  put the papers in some sort  of ``words blender`` and came to the conclusion that Zucker and authors with similar views were using  more clinical vocabulary (which they would because they are practicing clinical psychologists) than others people.  They call the clinical vocabulary ``pathologising``.  All the evidences they had against Zucker is that he used words to write about his patients that the trannies don't like.  There were no clinical studies, absolutely no hard data to prove Dr. Zucker treatments were harmful or that he is a bad person. The allegations against Zucker have been proven false.


For people so concerned about the prejudice of  words, they used the expression ''invisible college'', almost like some sort of ''Mwahahahah'' evil cabal.  This is disingenuous. There is no big secret, nothing nefarious. In very specialized fields, there are always networks of specialists more or less connected who collaborate and exchange a lot.  That's how it works. And just by the number of published papers and years of experience, Zucker and associates would weight a lot.

Contrarily to Zucker, who was known to spent 6 days a week at the gender clinic, Ansara is not a practicing clinical psychologist. From his bio, he sounds like an activist with a Ph.D.  His adviser Peter Hegarty,  does not appear either to be a clinical psychologist but is more or less strictly an academic ``social psychologist``.  I may be wrong...but these dudes have never spent one minute in a mental health clinic dealing with suffering people and trying to help them. That`s the big scientific guns who were behind the ``exposure`` of Ken Zucker.


----------



## Wallace (Jul 14, 2017)

That paper consists of doing a literature search of references to transgender, dysphoria, etc. and seeing how often non-cisgender is presented as "pathology", i.e. a sickness or deviant. Since this happened so often in the ten year span before the American Psychiatric Association issued its statement on discrimination in transpeople by psychologists, the last ten years of research are hereby deemed problematic and invalid.

TL;DR: _Waaaaaaahh!!_

To claim that this is PhD level research is laughable, I could write a much better paper in a week. Just search PubMed for dysphoria or transgender, pull a hundred or so papers, then search for whatever is offense this week.


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## AnOminous (Jul 15, 2017)

Slippery Bogle said:


> I may be wrong...but these dudes have never spent one minute in a mental health clinic dealing with suffering people and trying to help them. That`s the big scientific guns who were behind the ``exposure`` of Ken Zucker.



So pretty much two complete nobodies REEEEEEEing at it.


----------



## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 15, 2017)

AnOminous said:


> So pretty much two complete nobodies REEEEEEEing at it.



REEEEEEE with a PhD slapped on the end. And you wonder why I rebel, lol.


----------



## multiverse (Jul 16, 2017)

"reflects or contrasts with the zeitgeist of American Psychological Association’s recent non-discrimination statement on ‘transgender’ and ‘gender variant’ individuals" 

-> do the clinical words used by doctors violate the GHOST OF FEELINGS? This is what this PhD paper is on.

"Articles by members of an ‘invisible college'"

-> deep state did tranny 9/11

The paper starts off by cherry picking from the APA's resolution on Transgender issues and extrapolating from them, but here's the whole resolution so we can see what we're working with.

I picked out the ones most likely to be used by troons in future (and perhaps they'll get to them later in the paper, I'm live-blogging my read thru)



 

 

 

"Appropriately identified" means adult patients have been observed to suffer from persistent gender dysphoria and nothing short of surgical intervention will assuage their anxiety. And personally I'm o the fence that this particular delusion should be catered to. We don't approve amputations for  apotemnophiliacs. In fact, out of the list of paraphilia, there's only 2 which now have medical backing: Autoandrophilia and Autogynephilia.

Back to the paper:

"Parlee [1996] found that psychologists failed to identify participants’ genders on participants’ own terms, remaining limited to theories and terms that view external classifications as more authoritative than self-designations"​
Parlee found that patients weren't allowed to drive the treatment process, and that psychologists trusted their training rather than taking their patients' words as gospel. The DSM wasn't instantly re-written by transwomen. Clutch your pearls, y'all.

"More recently, other authors have addressed erasure (Namaste, 2000), maligning language (Winters, 200 and pathologising (Namaste, 2000; Serano, 2007; Winters, 200 of participants’ genders. Namaste’s (2000) social critique was informed by qualitative interviews she conducted for community outreach projects; her text provides detailed narratives that were absent from official agency reports. Serano (2007) also critiqued cissexism, traditionalsexism, oppositionalsexism, effemimania and ungendering in psychomedical literature on ‘trans and gender variant’ individuals. Both authors echoed Parlee’s (1996) view that psychological literature omits people’s experiences ‘as they are lived and socially organised’ (Namaste, 2000, p. 65)"​
There are a lot of studies on how therapists' notes hurt trans feelings. They feel medical notes don't tell the "lived trans experience" - but they're medical notes, not a biography. This is like saying that the medical literature on the high rate of heart disease and diabetes among African Americans is racist because it doesn't allow for the "lived black experience" of trans fat filled cooking.

"Some authors have critiqued psychological research for similar problems, including the failure to respect children’s own gender designations(e.g., Winters, 200. The recognition of children’s own genders is essential both to APA’s desired leadership role in ending discrimination (APA, 200 and to APA’s stated goal of ‘objectivity in scientific reporting’ 1 through ‘reducing bias in language’ (APA, n.d.)"​
Unless children are allowed to completely drive their psychological treatment paradigm, the APA violates their goal of "reducing bias via language". Removing biased language is very different than demanding a diagnosis you want, and calling someone a bigot if the diagnosis you desire isn't granted.

"Between 1980 and the present, various psychological approaches have been proposed to ‘treat’ children classified as having a ‘GIDC’ (Bryant, 2006). Currently, Zucker and Bradley’s (1995) version of this model is the most widely used approach to these children in psychology. This approach involves behavioural modification techniques and aversive conditioning to ‘fix’ genders that do not match children and adolescents’ external gender assignments (Spiegel, 2008; Zucker & Bradley, 1995)..."​

 

A bunch of lines are cut out to make the therapy appear to be about punishing and torturing a small child. And these excerpts are NOT Zucker's - they're quoting a different paper from 2008, which describes Zucker's work brutally. It took me a couple read-throughs to figure out these weren't from the 1996 paper at all. They're doing their utmost to position Zucker's work as "reparative therapy", and have changed all the pronouns. They do not say whether the child desisted in their gender identity as female, nor do they describe other issue the child may have had. Autism and OCD are often co-morbid with gender identity issues; when your kid gets into obsessive patterns, it IS best to force them to branch out, lest they set rigid, lifetime rules for themselves as children that they can never break as the get older. You don't let your kid with OCD wash their hands as many times as they want, because they'll hurt themselves. 

- will finish reading later -


----------



## Slippery Bogle (Jul 16, 2017)

multiverse said:


> And personally I'm o the fence that this particular delusion should be catered to. We don't approve amputations for  apotemnophiliacs. ....
> 
> Autism and OCD are often co-morbid with gender identity issues; when your kid gets into obsessive patterns, it IS best to force them to branch out, lest they set rigid, lifetime rules for themselves as children that they can never break as the get older. You don't let your kid with OCD wash their hands as many times as they want, because they'll hurt themselves.



I think this is at the heart of the debate.  It assumes that it is better to feed people delusions rather than confronting them to  reality and helping them coping with it. This will not end well. And this will cut treatment options for parents to help the kid adjust socially. The best this will accomplish is that the 'freaky trans kid' will be politely ostracized instead of receiving negative feedback which would have help him to adjust his behavior and be accepted in the long run. The worst will be huge buyer remorses once the negative effects of hormone treatment and surgery starts kicking in.


----------



## multiverse (Jul 16, 2017)

I found the Spegiel article on the child Bradley's development -  it's not even a published paper, it's a fucking NPR article they quoted in a doctoral "research" paper.

Part of the issue with the kid was that Bradley couldn't picture what masculinity even is; this is the kind of issue Dr. Zucker would try to get at the root of:




Verses a different kid on Oakland, whose therapist instantly told his parents there's not a damn thing wrong:




Well you don't "cure" a kid of being different or gay. Dr. Ehrensaft. But you don't discourage therapy for a 3 year old who obsessively fusses with a t-shirt in secret for months and becomes hysterical over it. That's an unhealthy obsession. That's something that needs to be unwound.




Of course the Oakland doctor convinced the parents to let little "Jona" live fully as a girl. What Dr. Zucker did was break kids out of their obsessive patterns; confirm that there's no such thing as biologically being born in the wrong body; and point out that lifelong hormones treatments and surgeries are serious shit that kids cannot understand the scope of.


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## AnOminous (Jul 16, 2017)

REEEEEEE REEEEEEE don't abuse them by putting them in therapy!  Just chop their cocks off and permanently mutilate them instead!


----------



## Frank_Jaeger (Jul 16, 2017)

Um sorry sweeties but the scientific consensus supports sex being a spectrum and not a rigid binary system and has for decades now. Actual biologist know science is weird and there's more to it than what you learned in 6th grade. You may think you got chromosomes and genitals all figured out but the truth is you know nothing Jon Snow and need to educate yourselves. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science...ature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary


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## Scratch This Nut (Jul 16, 2017)

Frank_Jaeger said:


> Um sorry sweeties but the scientific consensus supports sex being a spectrum and not a rigid binary system and has for decades now. Actual biologist know science is weird and there's more to it than what you learned in 6th grade. You may think you got chromosomes and genitals all figured out but the truth is you know nothing Jon Snow and need to educate yourselves.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/science...ature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary


Okay, lose the attitude and show us some actual scientific papers that have nothing to do with the guardian.



AnOminous said:


> REEEEEEE REEEEEEE don't abuse them by putting them in therapy!  Just chop their cocks off and permanently mutilate them instead!


Pretty sure no doctor worth their salt would suggest that be the first act. It's mostly dumb parents.  Doesn't "transitioning" for a kid just mean a haircut and some new clothes?


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## Frank_Jaeger (Jul 16, 2017)

Scratch This Nut said:


> Okay, lose the attitude and show us some actual scientific papers that have nothing to do with the guardian.
> 
> 
> Pretty sure no doctor with their salt would suggest that be the first act. It's mostly dumb parents.  Doesn't "transitioning" for a kid just mean a haircut and some new clothes?



https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Nature is a highly respected publication, you know, and includes the citations in the article. Have fun!


----------



## talk talk talk (Jul 16, 2017)

Frank_Jaeger said:


> https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
> 
> Nature is a highly respected publication, you know, and includes the citations in the article. Have fun!


Using intersex folks in this way is kind of a shitty thing to do.


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 17, 2017)

Frank_Jaeger said:


> https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
> 
> Nature is a highly respected publication, you know, and includes the citations in the article. Have fun!



And those reports cited have been ripped apart in the scientific realm. Shitpost elsewhere.


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## Frank_Jaeger (Jul 17, 2017)

Frank_Jaeger said:


> https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
> 
> Nature is a highly respected publication, you know, and includes the citations in the article. Have fun!





WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> And those reports cited have been ripped apart in the scientific realm. Shitpost elsewhere.



lol proof? I'd take Nature, a respected science journal over some rando on a milk forum


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 17, 2017)

Frank_Jaeger said:


> lol proof? I'd take Nature, a respected science journal over some rando on a tard cum forum



And now you're just trolling. Good day.


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## Frank_Jaeger (Jul 17, 2017)

WeaponsGradeAutism said:


> And now you're just trolling. Good day.





Spoiler


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## Wallace (Jul 17, 2017)

Frank_Jaeger said:


> https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
> 
> Nature is a highly respected publication, you know, and includes the citations in the article. Have fun!



I will!

Let's see here... This review describes disorders of sex development, prevalent in about 1% of the population. It goes on to describe some of the genes involved in sex determination, followed by post-natal hypospadias. There's also XY mosaicism caused by nondisjunction and chimeraism. It concludes with some of the issues that go into determining what should be used to determine a person's sex; anatomy, hormones, cells or chromosomes.

This seems to support that 99+% of people are well-matched between their physiological sex and their gender. With regards to the topic concerning the Rat King, I see no evidence that links any of these conditions to being transgender, especially not with the rapid onset we see in most trenders. At the risk of triggering you, these conditions are still classified as genetic disorders. For most people with disorders of sex development, the worst the suffer is infertility. 

But hey, if you'd like to get your genome sequenced, by all means do so, so you can prove how special you are.


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## Frank_Jaeger (Jul 17, 2017)

Wallace said:


> I will!
> 
> Let's see here... This review describes disorders of sex development, prevalent in about 1% of the population. It goes on to describe some of the genes involved in sex determination, followed by post-natal hypospadias. There's also XY mosaicism caused by nondisjunction and chimeraism. It concludes with some of the issues that go into determining what should be used to determine a person's sex; anatomy, hormones, cells or chromosomes.
> 
> ...



Why to miss the point that our current definitions of male and male don't work like people think they do from reading their primary school science book, Biological sex is as much a social concept as race.


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## Casta Spersions (Jul 17, 2017)

Uh huh. So where do babies come from then?  Our current definitions of male and male?


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## multiverse (Jul 17, 2017)

Just leave the angry troon alone, kids. They hate their dick and want science not to tell them "yeah you might have mental issues".

Troon: intersex people don't have anything to do with the current trend of gender bending kids. We know when someone is intersex because they have fucked up genetic and medical problems across the board. And they've never been clamoring for a protected social class.


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## Frank_Jaeger (Jul 17, 2017)

Lol if you guys are just gonna use "common sense" to deny scientific consensus then fine but don't pretend your any different from redneck climate change deniers


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## WeaponsGradeAutism (Jul 17, 2017)

multiverse said:


> Just leave the angry troon alone, kids. They hate their dick and want science not to tell them "yeah you might have mental issues".
> 
> Troon: intersex people don't have anything to do with the current trend of gender bending kids. We know when someone is intersex because they have fucked up genetic and medical problems across the board. And they've never been clamoring for a protected social class.



I've put the troon on ignore. Trying to be a second rate Dynastia. And even Dynastia roasts this one high on petrol.

We'll resume programming soon.


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## Terrorist (Jul 19, 2017)

Elwood P. Dowd said:


> *I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.*
> 
> Honking long article, so link only.





multiverse said:


> Here's a study within the article, on transgender being innately biological verses a psychological condition.
> View attachment 245257
> 
> This is one of the weird things about academic studies - 70% or more of the subjects demonstrate that transgenderism is social and not biological? Better conclude the opposite, because at most 30% of subjects did indicate a biological root.
> View attachment 245258



TWIN STUDIES MOTHERFUCKER 

Seriously, they're one of the biggest arguments against a biological basis for transgenderism and given infuriatingly low coverage in anti-troon circles. I'm no scientist, but doesn't it make sense that identical mantwins, were they trans, would have similarly identical girlbrains? And this could not be altered by social conditioning, since it would be biologically innate? Again, so simple a fucking dental student (and trust me, we're dumb as shit) could understand it.

Of course the BEST argument against troons is JUST FUCKING LOOK AT THEM, GOD DAMN but we live in clown world where people refuse to accept the blatantly obvious, so hard science spelling this shit out is much appreciated.


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## Wallace (Jul 20, 2017)

Terrorist said:


> Seriously, they're one of the biggest arguments against a biological basis for transgenderism and given infuriatingly low coverage in anti-troon circles. I'm no scientist, but doesn't it make sense that identical mantwins, were they trans, would have similarly identical girlbrains? And this could not be altered by social conditioning, since it would be biologically innate? Again, so simple a fucking dental student (and trust me, we're dumb as shit) could understand it.



Not really. Neurogenesis is really fucking complex. Our brains may have the same general structures, but there's considerable subtlety that separates one person's brain from another, even among identical twins. Some of these differences may be genetic, others environmental, others still influenced by internal factors that aren't hardcoded onto DNA. There are approximately 100 billion neutrons in the human brain, and 100 trillion synapses.  How these become someone's personality is still very poorly understood. The list of what we don't know about the brain is a very long one, and that includes what drives sexual preferences and what we conceptualize as our gender.

Ironically, if there were some causal physiological feature for being transgender, not only would it would be a simple matter of testing for it, but it would also suggest the best possible method for treatment. This would be a huge win for the trans community, since now they can point at this and say it's not their fault, it's just their physiology.



Terrorist said:


> Of course the BEST argument against troons is JUST FUCKING LOOK AT THEM, GOD DAMN but we live in clown world where people refuse to accept the blatantly obvious, so hard science spelling this shit out is much appreciated.



Perhaps a better question to ask is: why? Why believe something that goes against the physical evidence in the mirror? Is it hormonal? Psychological? There are people out there who are "trans-abled", their dysphoria comes form having function limbs or eyes, and they want to be cured by maiming themselves. Their suffering is real, but where does it come from?


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## Terrorist (Jul 20, 2017)

Wallace said:


> Perhaps a better question to ask is: why? Why believe something that goes against the physical evidence in the mirror? Is it hormonal? Psychological? There are people out there who are "trans-abled", their dysphoria comes form having function limbs or eyes, and they want to be cured by maiming themselves. Their suffering is real, but where does it come from?



What I meant to say was that troons are so obviously damaged that the casual observer shouldn't take them seriously or accept their desires as anything other than delusions. This used to be the case up until 15-20 years ago when the gay movement opened the floodgates to tranny-acceptance with its overall DON'T JUDGE attitude towards alternative lifestyles. The liberal academia/media/entertainment industry of today ate it up and indoctrinated the populace with it, leading to the emperor-has-no-clothes situation we're in today. 

You do make a very good point though. I think the greatest tragedy here is that nobody is really interested in sussing out the cause of trannies, which could lead to actual treatments. Instead, most researchers on the subject focus on normalizing the self-destructive tendencies these people suffer from. We shouldn't enable people who think they're Napoleon, we should treat them, right?


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## Wallace (Jul 20, 2017)

Terrorist said:


> You do make a very good point though. I think the greatest tragedy here is that nobody is really interested in sussing out the cause of trannies, which could lead to actual treatments. Instead, most researchers on the subject focus on normalizing the self-destructive tendencies these people suffer from. We shouldn't enable people who think they're Napoleon, we should treat them, right?



There's also the question of how do we treat them. For whatever reason, their suffering is real. Throwing a bucket of cold water on them and saying, "No, you're _wrong_!" is inhumane. Right now, HRT is the best we've got. Maybe it's because looking at other options is politically unpopular.  This isn't a situation with a good option, only poor ones.

What I _do_ take exception to is the use of identity as a moral bludgeon, wielded by bullies who get their rocks off by shaming people for innocuous slips of the tongue--or keyboard, as the case may be. That needs to be nipped in the bud.


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## Terrorist (Jul 20, 2017)

Wallace said:


> There's also the question of how do we treat them. For whatever reason, their suffering is real. Throwing a bucket of cold water on them and saying, "No, you're _wrong_!" is inhumane. Right now, HRT is the best we've got. Maybe it's because looking at other options is politically unpopular.  This isn't a situation with a good option, only poor ones.
> 
> What I _do_ take exception to is the use of identity as a moral bludgeon, wielded by bullies who get their rocks off by shaming people for innocuous slips of the tongue--or keyboard, as the case may be. That needs to be nipped in the bud.



Where we differ is I think HRT is inhumane as well. It's essentially a prescription for mentally ill people to mutilate themselves, which is pretty barbaric imo, especially given the large portion that regret it. Their suffering is very real but we need to _cure _it, not just acquiesce to what makes them feel good at the time. Lobotomy used to be the best option for violent schizophrenics, but I would prefer to salvage the human being in there rather than destroy it further.


----------



## AnOminous (Jul 20, 2017)

Terrorist said:


> Seriously, they're one of the biggest arguments against a biological basis for transgenderism and given infuriatingly low coverage in anti-troon circles. I'm no scientist, but doesn't it make sense that identical mantwins, were they trans, would have similarly identical girlbrains?



Not necessarily.  The gold standard of twin studies is monozygotic (identical) vs. dizygotic (fraternal), because in both cases, you have fetuses that experienced the same environment in the womb, so to some extent, that controls for only changing the genetics of one while the other is identical.  Even so, identical genes are not always expressed identically, and it's always possible for one twin to suffer trauma not experienced by the other.

What's important is that if the identical twins share a trait significantly more often than fraternal twins, there's almost certainly _some_ genetic component to the trait.



> Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among brothers
> 
> 52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise homosexual
> 22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
> ...



So for instance you have things like this, which show a pretty clear correlation between genetics and homosexuality.

Even the strongest correlation, though, between identical twins, is still only 52%.  That indicates a strong but not necessarily controlling genetic element.


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## Wallace (Jul 20, 2017)

Terrorist said:


> Where we differ is I think HRT is inhumane as well. It's essentially a prescription for mentally ill people to mutilate themselves, which is pretty barbaric imo, especially given the large portion that regret it. Their suffering is very real but we need to _cure _it, not just acquiesce to what makes them feel good at the time. Lobotomy used to be the best option for violent schizophrenics, but I would prefer to salvage the human being in there rather than destroy it further.



Some of it may be the placebo effect, since they feel like taking female hormones makes them more female, as opposed to taking, say, an antidepressant.

Speaking of, can anyone get this out from behind a paywall?

Pharmacological treatment of paraphilias with a focus on antidepressants

This article reviews the advances in pharmacotherapy of paraphilias. Antiandrogen hormones, phenothiazines, and lithium therapy of paraphilias is briefly reviewed. Pharmacotherapy of paraphilias with serotonergic drugs such as fluoxetine, clomipramine, sertraline, and fluvoxamine is reviewed in detail. In addition, the use of buspirone hydrochloride in paraphilias is discussed. The final focus of the article is on the etiologic theories of paraphilias and some practical advice for the pharmacotherapy and management of paraphilias.


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## ccoinhoarder (Jul 20, 2017)

Wallace said:


> Right now, HRT is the best we've got.



But it's still not good. Putting people on a drug that at best causes fertility problems and irreversible changes in someone's body (just look at detransitioners, AKA the ugly secret of the Rat King), and at worst turns you into a goblinoid Danny-Devito looking character with emotional issues out the wazoo is not a very good solution. Psychotherapy should be the first, last, and best solution for this. Of course, HRT is infinitely preferable to people dosing themselves with black-market chinese 'mones that'll really fuck you up, so it's a mixed bag.


----------



## Save Goober (Oct 10, 2017)

I find it really fascinating reading other online communities take on transtrenders, because they independently arrive at the same conclusions we do. Lots of parents out there are saying things like "my daughter was diagnosed with autism, and after a summer spent on tumblr, she suddenly came out as trans". They talk about tumblr and online trans groups like they are a cult, but they don't know the extent of it that we do. 
In one story I just read, a daughter who was transitioning into a man suddenly became afraid to leave her house saying she was afraid for her life and that transphobes would attack her. The mom speculated it was something she was reading online, but didn't really know. I think we all know what kind of communities spread that sort of thing.
On the other hand, we see all the online stuff, but can only speculate if whatever trender cow "always felt like a boy" and what they are like irl. From what I've been reading that's far from the truth and they usually are people with lots of emotional problems, but gender isn't one, at least not until they start spending all their time on tumblr. The evil, transphobic parents tumblrinas always talk about are online themselves, talking about how they supported social transition, but felt medical transition was being rushed, felt that becoming trans was announced suddenly after long periods online, and how their kids have only gotten MORE depressed and fucked up since beginning transition.
Anyway, here are a couple of articles discussing gender identity that you all might like. https://sexandgenderintro.com/trans-issues-and-gender-identity/ 
http://thejungsoul.com/layersofmeaning/


----------



## Jaimas (Oct 10, 2017)

We really need to do a segment on the practice of "hatching" and "eggmodes."

That fucking lunacy is a major reason Troonism is becoming more and more of a thing.


----------



## Sinner's Sandwich (Oct 10, 2017)

melty said:


> I find it really fascinating reading other online communities take on transtrenders, because they independently arrive at the same conclusions we do. Lots of parents out there are saying things like "my daughter was diagnosed with autism, and after a summer spent on tumblr, she suddenly came out as trans". They talk about tumblr and online trans groups like they are a cult, but they don't know the extent of it that we do.
> In one story I just read, a daughter who was transitioning into a man suddenly became afraid to leave her house saying she was afraid for her life and that transphobes would attack her. The mom speculated it was something she was reading online, but didn't really know. I think we all know what kind of communities spread that sort of thing.
> On the other hand, we see all the online stuff, but can only speculate if whatever trender cow "always felt like a boy" and what they are like irl. From what I've been reading that's far from the truth and they usually are people with lots of emotional problems, but gender isn't one, at least not until they start spending all their time on tumblr. The evil, transphobic parents tumblrinas always talk about are online themselves, talking about how they supported social transition, but felt medical transition was being rushed, felt that becoming trans was announced suddenly after long periods online, and how their kids have only gotten MORE depressed and fucked up since beginning transition.
> Anyway, here are a couple of articles discussing gender identity that you all might like. https://sexandgenderintro.com/trans-issues-and-gender-identity/
> http://thejungsoul.com/layersofmeaning/



There is also an article about an 18 year old guy who became more depressed than ever after penis inversion surgery. His parents supported his transition and yet his mental health worsened.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/nyregion/transgender-minors-gender-reassignment-surgery.html


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## Wallace (Oct 10, 2017)

It's almost like they're edgy teenagers trying to get attention while having difficulty coping with the biological changes that come along with puberty.


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Oct 11, 2017)

Wallace said:


> It's almost like they're edgy teenagers trying to get attention while having difficulty coping with the biological changes that come along with puberty.



The goth/emo fad is over. Now it's trendy to take hormones and chop off your genitals.


----------



## Incredible Crisis (Nov 18, 2017)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> The goth/emo fad is over. Now it's trendy to take hormones and chop off your genitals.



I'd much rather have my kid be fleetingly interested in the emo subculture over one that largely supports cult thinking and medical self mutilation to the point of suicide ideation.


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## Doug_Hitzel (Nov 18, 2017)

Incredible Crisis said:


> I'd much rather have my kid be fleetingly interested in the emo subculture over one that largely supports cult thinking and medical self mutilation to the point of suicide ideation.


What’s the difference between suicidal thoughts and suicide ideation?


----------



## Jaimas (Nov 18, 2017)

Doug_Hitzel said:


> What’s the difference between suicidal thoughts and suicide ideation?



A lifetime of medical agony brought about by irrevocably fucking up your biochemistry with hormone cocktails that lack a single solitary scrap of credible evidence behind their use.


----------



## Bum Driller (Nov 21, 2017)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> The goth/emo fad is over. Now it's trendy to take hormones and chop off your genitals.



Kind of funny, that in the eighties William Gibson envisioned a future in 2020 where it was all the rage to get your face transfigured to look like some kind of an animals, just because technology had progressed to the point that it was cheap and easy enough to do so. Perhaps that's the next big thing, and this transtrender stuff is just warm-up to real insanity.


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## Wallace (Dec 13, 2017)

Ray Blanchard has published an extensive overview of the different types of dysphoria. 



> Autogynephilia is probably rare, although it is difficult to know for certain. Among males who seek gender transition, however, it is common. In fact, in Western countries in recent years, including the United States, autogynephilia has accounted for at least 75% of cases of male-to-female transsexualism.





> The typical case of Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD) involves an adolescent or young adult female whose social world outside the family glorifies transgender phenomena and exaggerates their prevalence. Furthermore, it likely includes a heavy dose of internet involvement. The adolescent female acquires the conviction that she is transgender. (Not uncommonly, others in her peer group acquire the same conviction.) These peer groups encouraged each other to believe that all unhappiness, anxiety, and life problems are likely due to their being transgender, and that gender transition is the only solution. Subsequently, there may be a rush towards gender transition, including hormones. Parental opposition to gender transition often leads to family discord, even estrangement. Suicidal threats are common.
> 
> We believe that ROGD is a socially contagious phenomenon in which a young person–typically a natal female–comes to believe that she has a condition that she does not have. ROGD is not about discovering gender dysphoria that was there all along; rather, it is about falsely coming to believe that one’s problems have been due to gender dysphoria previously hidden (from the self and others). Let us be clear: People with ROGD do have a kind of gender dysphoria, but it is gender dysphoria due to persuasion of those especially vulnerable to a false idea. It is not gender dysphoria due to anything like having the mind/brain of one sex trapped in the body of the other. Those with ROGD do, of course, wish to gender transition, and they often obsess over this prospect.
> 
> The subculture that fosters ROGD appears to share aspects with cults. These aspects include expectation of absolute ideological agreement, use of very specific jargon, thinking of the world as “us” versus “them” (even more than typical adolescents do), and encouragement to cut off ties with family and friends who are not “with the program.” It also has uncanny similarities to a very harmful epidemic that occurred a generation ago: the epidemic of false “recovered memories” of childhood sexual abuse and the associated epidemic of multiple personality disorder.





> –Persons with ROGD have high rates of certain psychiatric problems, especially aspects related to borderline personality disorder (e.g., non-suicidal self-harm) and mild forms of autism (that used to be called “Asperger Syndrome).
> 
> –In general, the mental health and social relationships of children with ROGD get much worse once they adopt transgender identities.
> 
> –Parents resisting their children’s ROGD are not “transphobic” or socially intolerant. These are parents who, for example, usually approve of gay marriage and equal rights for transgender persons.





> Here are the main similarities between ROGD and RM/MPD:
> 
> Cases consistent with RM/MPD were very rare prior to the 1980s but became an epidemic. The same appears to be happening with ROGD.
> Both have primarily affected young females, although RM/MPD began substantially later (on average, age 32) than ROGD (typically during adolescence). (Another destructive epidemic of social contagion–witch accusations in colonial Salem–primarily involved adolescent girls.)
> ...


----------



## Positron (Dec 15, 2017)

Doug_Hitzel said:


> What’s the difference between suicidal thoughts and suicide ideation?


There is no formal difference.  But "ideation" is preferred in medical texts to refer to thoughts that the patient identity with, instead of anger outbursts like "if you don't come with me to see _The Last Jedi_ I'll kill myself!"


----------



## Wallace (Dec 17, 2017)

Another topic for our virtual library: similarities between SocJus/troonhood and cults?


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Dec 18, 2017)

Wallace said:


> Another topic for our virtual library: similarities between SocJus/troonhood and cults?



If you look up the signs for a cult you will notice how similar they are.

Love bombing, guilt tripping, us vs. them mentality, no disagreement allowed, more and more rules etc.

https://carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult

https://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html


----------



## Jaimas (Dec 18, 2017)

As was said a long time ago: Cults of personality are, at the end of the day, still cults.


----------



## Jaimas (Jan 1, 2018)

OK, I need to share this. It's only _tangentially_ related, but you fucking _need_ to see this, because it's like a personification of every terrible fucking study I looked at during the Vade debacle and now you too can share in my brain cancer:



Spoiler: Abandon All Hope




















































I bet you didn't know you could contract Autism from a study before.


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## Chemical snorfare (Jan 1, 2018)

Jaimas said:


> OK, I need to share this. It's only _tangentially_ related, but you fucking _need_ to see this, because it's like a personification of every terrible fucking study I looked at during the Vade debacle and now you too can share in my brain cancer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is sokal tier no? Please god tell me this is Sokal.


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## Jaimas (Jan 1, 2018)

Chemical snorfare said:


> This is sokal tier no? Please god tell me this is Sokal.



Would you believe that this is a diversity-hire engineering prof?


----------



## Chemical snorfare (Jan 1, 2018)

Jaimas said:


> Would you believe that this is a diversity-hire engineering prof?



I'm off to mine bit coins or whatever you do, just for the true and honest status, just so I can rate this post "horrifying".


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## Wallace (Jan 1, 2018)

Jaimas said:


> Would you believe that this is a diversity-hire engineering prof?



Could be. Smith is full of lesbians--or at least political lesbians.

But yeah, that's some impressive academic/postmodern word salad right there.

I'd like to read this article, but it's behind a paywall. Anyone in academia that has access to this journal?

Self-enhancement, righteous anger, and moral grandiosity

Do people self-enhance by dwelling in righteous anger in an effort to preserve their self-views as pillars of morality? We addressed this question in two experiments. Participants read a story about an injustice (experiencing righteous anger) or grocery shopping (experiencing neutral emotion), indicated their interest in reading injustice-relevant or happiness-relevant newspaper articles, and rated themselves on moral and agentic traits. Participants who experienced righteous anger (vs. neutral emotion) maintained their anger (i.e., exhibited stronger interest in reading injustice- than happiness-relevant articles) and rated themselves more positively on moral, but not on agentic, traits. Furthermore, anger maintenance mediated the effect of righteous anger on moral grandiosity. The findings illustrate tactical self-enhancement: the instrumental use of one’s negative emotions for self-enhancement purposes.


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## Meowthkip (Jan 4, 2018)

I gotta say, this thread has been a fascinating and also very worrying read. I worry about my transgender friends, particularly those that are more sensitive and emotionally vulnerable, and it'd kill me to see anything terrible become of them. Even they acknowledge, however, that being transgender is a disorder and children should not transition. I've worked with children and I've come across kids as old as nine or ten who think what makes a man or a woman relies on hair length. How anyone can reasonably expect a three year-old to know the differences between the genders beyond the most basic stereotypes is beyond me.

The twin studies are especially fascinating because one of my transgender friends is a twin, though his twin is fraternal and the two were separated at birth. His twin is cis.


----------



## Sinner's Sandwich (Jan 4, 2018)

Meowthkip said:


> I gotta say, this thread has been a fascinating and also very worrying read. I worry about my transgender friends, particularly those that are more sensitive and emotionally vulnerable, and it'd kill me to see anything terrible become of them. Even they acknowledge, however, that being transgender is a disorder and children should not transition. I've worked with children and I've come across kids as old as nine or ten who think what makes a man or a woman relies on hair length. How anyone can reasonably expect a three year-old to know the differences between the genders beyond the most basic stereotypes is beyond me.
> 
> The twin studies are especially fascinating because one of my transgender friends is a twin, though his twin is fraternal and the two were separated at birth. His twin is cis.



Larry "Laverne" Cox is a twin too. His brother is straight. It's not that one twin was born a troon. It's that 1 twin is gay and the other straight.

Gays/ lesbians/bisexuals are more gender nonconforming than straights especially in childhood and therefore more likely to transition.

If the troon twin thinks they are  a *lesbian* or *gay man* it can be autogynephilia/autoandrophilia, transtrending etc.

I'm not saying that lgb people can't be transtrenders but the reasons to transition are often different.


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## Wallace (Jan 26, 2018)

The “Facebook-self”: characteristics and psychological predictors of false self-presentation on Facebook

This is a subject that I'm very interested in: the idea that the way one presents themselves on social media can be considered a "false self", as originally coined by Winnicott, and is especially common in people with low self-esteem or social anxiety. In such people, the online false self bleeds into real-life interactions and seeks to override the true self, and when exposed, causes a reaction comparable to narcissistic rage.


----------



## Jaimas (Feb 18, 2018)

This one I've had in the works a while. But it needs your help.

I did a Wiki article on Egg Moding.

Do your part and contribute to the ongoing list of cows which either were hatched or who have advocated hatching others.


----------



## Sinner's Sandwich (Feb 18, 2018)

Jaimas said:


> This one I've had in the works a while. But it needs your help.
> 
> I did a Wiki article on Egg Moding.
> 
> Do your part and contribute to the ongoing list of cows which either were hatched or who have advocated hatching others.



Gender identity watch isn't run by troons and has nothing to do with trans recruitment.


----------



## Jaimas (Feb 18, 2018)

Sinners Sandwich said:


> Gender identity watch isn't run by troons and has nothing to do with trans recruitment.



Good to know. Editing accordingly.

Shit still creeps me the fuck out.


----------



## Wallace (Mar 8, 2018)

Competition over collective victimhood recognition: When perceived lack of recognition for past victimization is associated with negative attitudes towards another victimized group

“Groups that perceive themselves as victims can engage in “competitive victimhood.” We propose that, in some societal circumstances, this competition bears on the recognition of past sufferings—rather than on their relative severity—fostering negative intergroup attitudes. Three studies are presented. Study 1, a survey among Sub-Saharan African immigrants in Belgium (N = 127), showed that a sense of collective victimhood was associated with more secondary anti-Semitism. This effect was mediated by a sense of lack of victimhood recognition, then by the belief that this lack of recognition was due to that of Jews' victimhood, but not by competition over the severity of the sufferings. Study 2 replicated this mediation model among Muslim immigrants (N = 125). Study 3 experimentally demonstrated the negative effect of the unequal recognition of groups' victimhood on intergroup attitudes in a fictional situation involving psychology students (N = 183). Overall, these studies provide evidence that struggle for victimhood recognition can foster intergroup conflict.”

“The victim status is highly coveted because it tends to empower victimized groups, which are perceived as morally superior, entitled to sympathy, consideration, and protection against criticism.”

“Conversely, the lack of victimhood status poses a problem to minorities, since it reduces their ability to garner attention, protection, and even financial rewards (reparations, for example). This explains why the denial of victimhood status can be so troubling: denial of victimhood recognition can lend credence to a denial of help and assistance.”

“For one study, they surveyed 133 Belgian Muslims on their sense of victimhood and their levels of anti-Semitism. The sense of victimhood among Muslims was gauged by how much respondents agreed with statements such as “Muslims have a huge past of sufferings” and “The suffering Muslims have been through was undeserved and unfair.”

Then, the Muslims were asked questions designed to gauge if they held anti-Semitic viewpoints, such as “Jews should stop constantly complaining about what happened to them in Nazi Germany” and “The Jews exploit the remembrance of the Holocaust for their own benefit.”

In line with the professors’ predictions, the survey found that feelings of anti-Semitism were strongly correlated with feelings of victimhood among Belgian Muslims. Further, the study also found that anti-Semitism was especially strong towards Israelis in particular, who were viewed with significantly more hostility than Belgian Jews.”


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## Wallace (May 28, 2018)

An interesting commentary from a trans desistor. link

"Teen girls are taught to hate everything about themselves. None of us can win. Even the thinnest, most clear-skinned, prettiest of girls find an enemy in the mirror. Imagine my horror to look at my reflection and see a fat, short-haired, lesbian staring back. In a world where my style, my interests, and my attractions weren’t fit for a girl, transgenderism offered the perfect solution: Be a boy.

It wouldn’t work, of course. How could it, when all of my problems had nothing to do with how I identified and everything to do with what I was: female. Of course, as a 14-year-old, this wasn’t quick to occur to me. My transition to ‘boy’ was my ticket out of Self-hatred-Ville, and you’d better believe I was going to take it. 

In order for me to become instantly ‘valid,’ all I had to do was be a man. How could I do that? By feeling like one. What did that feel like? Don’t know, but since I didn’t feel like a woman (which I know realize is because I can’t; woman isn’t a feeling), the leap was easy for me to make: I must be a man.

It at the time all seemed very progressive– by ignoring history and biology, we could rewrite reality, and anyone could be anything they wanted (might I remind you of this list once more). What was really going on though was the complete opposite. First of all, words didn’t have meaning anymore. According to new gender logic, even male and female were fluid. A trans woman was now female by virtue of identifying as ‘woman’, all attempts at any kind of discussion about gender and sex are rendered impossible, because 1. Any disagreement labeled you a transphobe and a TERF, and you were quite literally ostracized, and 2. gender didn’t mean anything anymore (save some mysterious, cryptic feeling that refuses to be defined, apparently).

One of the biggest problems I think with being transgender is it comes out of an unhappiness, and that the impossibility of the accepted solution amplifies the unhappiness. Having short hair doesn’t give you an adam’s apple, testosterone injections won’t change your bone structure, a phalloplasty won’t let you produce sperm. The closer you get to the real thing, the further the gap between you and being a real male grows. Freeing yourself from the task of climbing a mountain whose peak can never be summited is your only chance of ever actually being happy."


----------



## Scratch This Nut (May 28, 2018)

Wallace said:


> An interesting commentary from a trans desistor. link
> 
> "Teen girls are taught to hate everything about themselves. None of us can win. Even the thinnest, most clear-skinned, prettiest of girls find an enemy in the mirror. Imagine my horror to look at my reflection and see a fat, short-haired, lesbian staring back. In a world where my style, my interests, and my attractions weren’t fit for a girl, transgenderism offered the perfect solution: Be a boy.
> 
> ...


I feel bad for that kid.   But she's traded in one brand of crazy for another, radical man hating feminist.  Can't anyone be at the middle ground anymore?


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## AnOminous (May 28, 2018)

Scratch This Nut said:


> I feel bad for that kid.   But she's traded in one brand of crazy for another, radical man hating feminist.  Can't anyone be at the middle ground anymore?



I don't see anything hating men in the excerpt or the full article.  Is she crazy somewhere else?


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## Scratch This Nut (May 29, 2018)

AnOminous said:


> I don't see anything hating men in the excerpt or the full article.  Is she crazy somewhere else?


She calls herself one in her about section.


----------



## AnOminous (May 29, 2018)

Scratch This Nut said:


> She calls herself one in her about section.



She says "kill all men" or "I hate men" there?  I didn't see that.


----------



## Wallace (May 29, 2018)

AnOminous said:


> She says "kill all men" or "I hate men" there?  I didn't see that.


 
Maybe this? Which is more TERFy than man-hater.


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## Wallace (Jun 28, 2018)

Alright, this is my attempt to put together a theory of how rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) develops among young, impressionable teens. In a broader embodiment, it could be seen as a general path for how people adopt any gender non-conforming identity online, or just get involved in Twitter social justice. I must stress this is all theory, and I hope that I will be proved wrong or offered counterarguments.

First, we must look at what traits are enriched in ROGD/social justice circles. All appear to be heavy internet users. Most share at least one geeky interest. Autism and poor socialization are also very common, as is queer/GNC behaviors, even prior to trooning. These kids all are drawn from the same social stock: they’re geeks.

Most of you will know that school is not a particularly kind place for weird, geeky kids. Anyone who doesn’t believe in Social Darwinism should visit a high school cafeteria during lunch sometime. It’s a place where geeky kids are subject to some pretty hefty shame, often times for reasons that aren’t apparent. Likewise on social media, there’s lots of pressures on kids to look and act a certain way, and it you don’t, you’re _bad_.

It’s no secret that geeks and low self-esteem go hand in hand. Over time, this type of thinking becomes habitual in the name of self-preservation. You begin to see the potential for social harm everywhere. Every interaction with those outside of the geek clique carries that taint for humiliation. This is often subtle, but it is still pervasive. It’s a chronic low stress environment (though it certainly be a high-stress one too), and over times, the effects add up.

When faced with a cruel and unjust outside world, it makes sense to try to reject it. A false facade arises to protect the damaged self that they think is unlovable and irreparably broken. This is where ROGD shines. When being a girl is too stressful, the solution is simple: be a boy, or vice versa. (Many desistors have explained this line of belief.) To be clear, any dysphoria felt is due to self-loathing; the transgender self is a rejection of one's own perception of their gender.

Suddenly, the teen is love bombed by a new group of friends. They offer unconditional acceptance, a strong group identity, and a common enemy. (The Geek Social Fallacies have infested gay rights groups, in this regard.) ROGD offers many things to get the teen hooked:

It allays their fears: No, you’re not broken or defective, you’re just trans.

It confirm their suspicions: Yes, people really do want to hurt you because you’re trans. It’s not your fault, it’s their fault because they are evil.

It justifies their failures: The world is actively out to get you because of your trans identity, that’s why you lose at life. It’s the patriarchy’s fault.

It encourage their dreams: With this secret knowledge, you can hatch into a more true version of yourself, and become who you always were.

It helps them throw rocks at their enemies; in the form of crybullying and suicide threats. Anything less than complete, unconditional affirmation is an act of violence that will cause the ROGD teen to kill themselves, and the victimizer will be morally culpable.

With all those factors, it’s very easy for a teen looking for solace to dive in deep. The online hugbox reinforces the delusion, and they get stuck in this pattern of thinking: the world hates you because you’re trans, period. Such people are vulnerable to this kind of emotional reasoning; I _feel like_ I am being harmed/may be harmed, therefore I _am_ harmed. It compliments the victim mentality of the online ROGD movement perfectly.

Like any good cult, they encourage their members to cut out everyone else, further building emotional dependence on the group. Trying to escape or even question the dogma means turning your back on all of the friends you have and having to face your long-buried traumas. So they double down. They compete to be the most "woke". They go from questioning, to queer, to full-blown troon.

It is this schoolyard line of thinking that keeps them emotionally arrested in adolescence, forever immersed in the things that made them feel good. They are also very eager to continue to consume more material that further confirms this world view, which sites like Gawker are happy to supply in abundance. After all, in the attention economy, who has more wealth than someone who spends every waking moment online obsessively? It’s a good deal for the media too, since anything that provokes a reaction of anger tends to be high-engagement and is more likely to go viral. Grifters and con artists as well are happy to join in, since the abundance of Geek Social Fallacies means there’s no way to expel them.

ROGD stems from a need to cope with a damaged sense of self-esteem and blame someone else for your misery. This is why troons don’t want their problems solved. They need the scapegoat. They cannot let their true self ever see the light of day. Which is kind of ironic, given how much troons claim that their transgender self is the true one.


----------



## spiritofamermaid (Jun 29, 2018)

Wallace said:


> Alright, this is my attempt to put together a theory of how rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) develops among young, impressionable teens. In a broader embodiment, it could be seen as a general path for how people adopt any gender non-conforming identity online, or just get involved in Twitter social justice. I must stress this is all theory, and I hope that I will be proved wrong or offered counterarguments.
> 
> First, we must look at what traits are enriched in ROGD/social justice circles. All appear to be heavy internet users. Most share at least one geeky interest. Autism and poor socialization are also very common, as is queer/GNC behaviors, even prior to trooning. These kids all are drawn from the same social stock: they’re geeks.
> 
> ...


It would be nice if we were able to see if this correlates with the physical appearances of the people going through it (specifically talking about FTM, since that seems to be the demographic that is more likely to have ROGD, since iirc there was a chart showing the original genders of those who transitioned and recently the numbers for FTM shot way up). 

To follow your guess, I would wonder what the age/school year of the people who had ROGD is. Following your theory, it would be most likely middle school, since that is the greatest turbulent time period for many people. Women have either gone through puberty already and are dealing with men going through their own and the reactions or are going through it for the first time as well.

I can't really talk about whether your theory is valid for both sides of the binary, but it does seem very valid for the female side. I have intimate experience with how even though you are told you are beautiful by many people, when you don't fit in with the popular crowd's definition of beautiful you reject it. And with the fact of everything being online and being shown everyone's _best _side, you see that your life isn't as perfect as them (not realizing that they're only telling you the best parts), causing you to become unsatisfied with your own. 

What I'm curious about is that really, ROGD seems to be more of a symptom of the result of social media distorting how people view their lives. They start to feel empty, but for some reason or another aren't willing do find something to do. And in middle school that tends to be what is close to your identity, and so while you're looking for it you find out that maybe you're trans. Personally, I view this very similar to the emo/goth/scene phase that everyone has, but instead of dark colors and long bangs, perhaps it's the LGBT movement as a whole? It's also maybe about being contrarian, since at that age you're starting to want to become independent but you also know how powerless you are (which I know happens in high school but in my family it happened in middle school so idk). But seeing how powerfully the LGBT affected society, they hop to that sphere to be "different" a la every girl's Myspace page saying that she is bi but because the movement has become so toxic and cultish due to tribalism so severe even Africans would be astounded they're unable to get out and move on, as what happens to most kids in the goth/scene/emo phase.

Admittedly, it's not nearly as harmless as dyeing your hair and listening to edgy rock, since you're messing with biological functions in the case of puberty blockers, surgery, and hormone pills. But it seems very purposefully contrarian in a sense, which makes it harder to put an end to it and its dangerous practices because they feel even more justified in their fight when people try to put a stop to it (for instance, linking gay conversion therapy with detransition therapy/gatekeeping practices.

It's also imo very entangled as a concept to unpack, as it is directly influenced by the SJW and "woke" culture as a whole, and that in itself is already very complex.


----------



## Wallace (Jun 29, 2018)

spiritofamermaid said:


> It would be nice if we were able to see if this correlates with the physical appearances of the people going through it (specifically talking about FTM, since that seems to be the demographic that is more likely to have ROGD, since iirc there was a chart showing the original genders of those who transitioned and recently the numbers for FTM shot way up).



My guess would be that there is a correlation, though I couldn't say how strong it is.

There’s also a self-loathing factor as well. At some level, they want people to look at them as freaks to confirm that suspicion. 



> To follow your guess, I would wonder what the age/school year of the people who had ROGD is. Following your theory, it would be most likely middle school, since that is the greatest turbulent time period for many people. Women have either gone through puberty already and are dealing with men going through their own and the reactions or are going through it for the first time as well.
> 
> I can't really talk about whether your theory is valid for both sides of the binary, but it does seem very valid for the female side. I have intimate experience with how even though you are told you are beautiful by many people, when you don't fit in with the popular crowd's definition of beautiful you reject it. And with the fact of everything being online and being shown everyone's _best _side, you see that your life isn't as perfect as them (not realizing that they're only telling you the best parts), causing you to become unsatisfied with your own.



I'd wager that incels go down a similar pathway too. They just need to work a little harder to invent their oppressor.



> What I'm curious about is that really, ROGD seems to be more of a symptom of the result of social media distorting how people view their lives. They start to feel empty, but for some reason or another aren't willing do find something to do. And in middle school that tends to be what is close to your identity, and so while you're looking for it you find out that maybe you're trans. Personally, I view this very similar to the emo/goth/scene phase that everyone has, but instead of dark colors and long bangs, perhaps it's the LGBT movement as a whole? It's also maybe about being contrarian, since at that age you're starting to want to become independent but you also know how powerless you are (which I know happens in high school but in my family it happened in middle school so idk). But seeing how powerfully the LGBT affected society, they hop to that sphere to be "different" a la every girl's Myspace page saying that she is bi but because the movement has become so toxic and cultish due to tribalism so severe even Africans would be astounded they're unable to get out and move on, as what happens to most kids in the goth/scene/emo phase.



People underestimate how powerful social media can be in coloring their perceptions. Text and pictures also don't give the same psychological stimulation that a real-life conversation has, which is why also those tearful e-hugs are palliative at best.

It's even scarier when you realize that Silicon Valley leans so strongly to the left, and they pretty much control what we see on the internet. That can do an awful lot come election time.



> Admittedly, it's not nearly as harmless as dyeing your hair and listening to edgy rock, since you're messing with biological functions in the case of puberty blockers, surgery, and hormone pills. But it seems very purposefully contrarian in a sense, which makes it harder to put an end to it and its dangerous practices because they feel even more justified in their fight when people try to put a stop to it (for instance, linking gay conversion therapy with detransition therapy/gatekeeping practices.
> 
> It's also imo very entangled as a concept to unpack, as it is directly influenced by the SJW and "woke" culture as a whole, and that in itself is already very complex.



The advantage that SocJus has is the veneer of legitimacy social acceptability in the eyes of their liberal suburban parents. But said parents mourn the loss of their children when they troon out.


----------



## Meowthkip (Jun 29, 2018)

spiritofamermaid said:


> What I'm curious about is that really, ROGD seems to be more of a symptom of the result of social media distorting how people view their lives. They start to feel empty, but for some reason or another aren't willing do find something to do. And in middle school that tends to be what is close to your identity, and so while you're looking for it you find out that maybe you're trans. Personally, I view this very similar to the emo/goth/scene phase that everyone has, but instead of dark colors and long bangs, perhaps it's the LGBT movement as a whole? It's also maybe about being contrarian, since at that age you're starting to want to become independent but you also know how powerless you are (which I know happens in high school but in my family it happened in middle school so idk). But seeing how powerfully the LGBT affected society, they hop to that sphere to be "different" a la every girl's Myspace page saying that she is bi but because the movement has become so toxic and cultish due to tribalism so severe even Africans would be astounded they're unable to get out and move on, as what happens to most kids in the goth/scene/emo phase.
> 
> Admittedly, it's not nearly as harmless as dyeing your hair and listening to edgy rock, since you're messing with biological functions in the case of puberty blockers, surgery, and hormone pills. But it seems very purposefully contrarian in a sense, which makes it harder to put an end to it and its dangerous practices because they feel even more justified in their fight when people try to put a stop to it (for instance, linking gay conversion therapy with detransition therapy/gatekeeping practices.



I personally blame a lack of any somewhat mainstream music subculture that shocks and offends parents that isn't rap music. Hipster banjo shit is pretty toothless in that respect, and dubstep has since lost the relevancy it had in the first half of this decade.

If you're a white kid living in the suburbs and you either don't like rap music or you buy into the idea that liking it would be cultural appropriation, you don't have any genre of music that isn't at least a decade and a half old to latch onto. And since genres like goth, emo and punk were into subverting and toying with gender norms, and you don't have that music, then subverting gender norms BECOMES the subculture.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jul 13, 2018)

Thread about countering nonsense with science.

Thread contains people just making up nonsense.

I know I got the words right, but this looks off. Am I supposed to do that stupid 4chan < thing here? Or do I need to color it green. How to be hip, fellow kids?


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## Scratch This Nut (Jul 13, 2018)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> Thread about countering nonsense with science.
> 
> Thread contains people just making up nonsense.
> 
> I know I got the words right, but this looks off. Am I supposed to do that stupid 4chan < thing here? Or do I need to color it green. How to be hip, fellow kids?


Don't be passive aggressive. Nobody likes that.


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## Meowthkip (Jul 14, 2018)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> Thread about countering nonsense with science.
> 
> Thread contains people just making up nonsense.
> 
> I know I got the words right, but this looks off. Am I supposed to do that stupid 4chan < thing here? Or do I need to color it green. How to be hip, fellow kids?



If you have scientific articles to prove any assertions in the thread wrong, please present them.

I don't see why we can't have a reasonable debate.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Jul 17, 2018)

Eh, whatever. Have whatever debate you like, just didn't seem like the thread content matched the title anymore.  I know you're just jealous of my sick burn using the latest in hip internet lingo.

I'll try to dial back the passive aggressiveness.


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## spiritofamermaid (Jul 17, 2018)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> Eh, whatever. Have whatever debate you like, just didn't seem like the thread content matched the title anymore.  I know you're just jealous of my sick burn using the latest in hip internet lingo.
> 
> I'll try to dial back the passive aggressiveness.


You do make a good point in that the thread somewhat devolved into theorizing what causes things like ROGD, instead of actually discussing biological differences between men, women, and those who are trans which was what the OP intended. Perhaps the posts that discussed things that were theories and off-topic should perhaps be moved to a new thread?


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## Wallace (Aug 12, 2018)

Fair enough. Here's a rather long piece discussing the junk science of the transgender movement, along with where the money is coming from. Spoiler alert: it's the pharma companies who make money off of kids transitioning.



> The modern transgender movement is an astroturf tiger. It is not grassroots, it is not organic, and it serves the purposes of no one beyond homophobes and pharmaceutical companies. It is a menace, it has hollowed out the LGBT community, it threatens women’s legal gains for the past hundred years, and it is going to destroy people’s lives. An entire generation of gender non-conforming children that may have otherwise grown up gay are going to grow up to be brain damaged, weakened eunuchs with a medical malpractice lawyer on retainer. This ‘movement’ needs to end before that happens. The LGBT community needs to wake up and start talking back to the fox in the hen house.


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## Save Goober (Aug 14, 2018)

Wallace said:


> Fair enough. Here's a rather long piece discussing the junk science of the transgender movement, along with where the money is coming from. Spoiler alert: it's the pharma companies who make money off of kids transitioning.


Wow. This is long, but well worth the read, and possibly one of the best articles I've ever read. Not just for it's extensive summary of everything discussed here and the much-needed addition of where the heck all the funding for this movement came from, but it's one of the rare pieces of journalism that gives a peek at how the world may work.


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## Wallace (Aug 17, 2018)

Just putting this link here so I don't lose it later.

Rapid-onset gender dysphoria in adolescents and young adults: A study of parental reports

Purpose
In on-line forums, parents have been reporting that their children are experiencing what is described here as “rapid-onset gender dysphoria,” appearing for the first time during puberty or even after its completion. The onset of gender dysphoria seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe. Parents also report that their children exhibited an increase in social media/internet use prior to disclosure of a transgender identity. The purpose of this study was to document and explore these observations and describe the resulting presentation of gender dysphoria, which is inconsistent with existing research literature.

Methods
Recruitment information with a link to a 90-question survey, consisting of multiple-choice, Likert-type and open-ended questions, was placed on three websites where parents had reported rapid onsets of gender dysphoria. Website moderators and potential participants were encouraged to share the recruitment information and link to the survey with any individuals or communities that they thought might include eligible participants to expand the reach of the project through snowball sampling techniques. Data were collected anonymously via SurveyMonkey. Quantitative findings are presented as frequencies, percentages, ranges, means and/or medians. Open-ended responses from two questions were targeted for qualitative analysis of themes.

Results
There were 256 parent-completed surveys that met study criteria. The adolescent and young adult (AYA) children described were predominantly female sex at birth (82.8%) with a mean age of 16.4 years. Forty-one percent of the AYAs had expressed a non-heterosexual sexual orientation before identifying as transgender. Many (62.5%) of the AYAs had been diagnosed with at least one mental health disorder or neurodevelopmental disability prior to the onset of their gender dysphoria (range of the number of pre-existing diagnoses 0–7). In 36.8% of the friendship groups described, the majority of the members became transgender-identified. The most likely outcomes were that AYA mental well-being and parent-child relationships became worse since AYAs “came out”. AYAs expressed a range of behaviors that included: expressing distrust of non-transgender people (22.7%); stopping spending time with non-transgender friends (25.0%); trying to isolate themselves from their families (49.4%), and only trusting information about gender dysphoria from transgender sources (46.6%).

Conclusion
Rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) describes a phenomenon where the development of gender dysphoria is observed to begin suddenly during or after puberty in an adolescent or young adult who would not have met criteria for gender dysphoria in childhood. ROGD appears to represent an entity that is distinct from the gender dysphoria observed in individuals who have previously been described as transgender. The worsening of mental well-being and parent-child relationships and behaviors that isolate AYAs from their parents, families, non-transgender friends and mainstream sources of information are particularly concerning. More research is needed to better understand this phenomenon, its implications and scope.


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## wylfım (Oct 23, 2018)

Only very tangentially related to points brought up before, but interesting nonetheless. Attached is a (very long) study on sexual behaviors and conditioning. I haven't read through it yet, but I want to note that it shows that sexual preferences can be conditioned (in mice at least) to go against innate biological instincts (in this case the smell of cadaverine, rotting corpses). Essentially, letting people troon out can produce positive feedback loops that reinforce their conviction that they truly are a troon. Apply this principle beyond transsexuals and you get into more controversial waters, but I'll let you make those conclusions yourself...


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## Wallace (Nov 2, 2018)

Putting this one here too.

Gender Dysphoria in Children

American College of Pediatricians – November 2018

ABSTRACT: Gender dysphoria (GD) of childhood describes a psychological condition in which children experience a marked incongruence between their experienced gender and the gender associated with their biological sex. When this occurs in the pre-pubertal child, GD resolves in the vast majority of patients by late adolescence. Currently there is a vigorous, albeit suppressed, debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD in children. This new paradigm is rooted in the assumption that GD is innate, and involves pubertal suppression with gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists followed by the use of cross-sex hormones—a combination that results in the sterility of minors. A review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is founded upon an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long-standing ethical principle of “First do no harm.”

This is a lot more than just an opinion piece, it's a position statement. The target audience is policy-makers, people who decide how to act when they get cases like this.


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## Wallace (Feb 16, 2019)

The Brain Will Go to Amazing, Sometimes Scary Lengths to Preserve Its Self-Constructed Narrative



> The fact that you feel in control of your life—at, really, any given moment—is, according to Will Storr writing in Aeon, an illusion painted by a brilliant brain struggling to make sense of the world. According to psychologists, it's your emotions that are always—or almost always, at any rate—in charge.
> 
> Storr writes:
> 
> ...



Here's a direct link to Storr's article, if you don't want to give the Guardian a click.

Also: anecdotal but relevant:


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## Positron (Feb 28, 2019)

*Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents*
25 Feb 2019
by *Carl Heneghan, *Editor in Chief BMJ EBM, Professor of EBM, University of Oxford 
and *Tom Jefferson, *Senior Associate Tutor University of Oxford, Visiting Professor Institute of Health & Society, Faculty of Medicine, Newcastle University

Key points: (whole text under spoiler at the end of this post)

Evidence suggests that children will change their minds as they age: approximately ¾ of pre-pubescent children attending gender identity clinics will not want to change their gender once puberty starts
Most studies involving children given GnRH anatgonists and / or cross-sex hormones suffer from lack of control groups and blinding.
Stopping LH and FSH and testosterone secretion (with GnRH anatgonists) suspends maturation of fetal and neonatal germ cells leading to a loss of fertility.
Three additional concerns have been raised that GnRH antagoists (paywalled article)
Young people are left in a state of ‘developmental limbo’ without secondary sexual characteristics that might consolidate gender identity;
Use is likely to threaten the maturation of the adolescent mind
Puberty blockers are being used in the context of profound scientific ignorance.

Spine bone mineral density scores fell during puberty suppression with GnRH antagonist for transgender adolescent "females" and did not increase following estrogen treatment.
There are concerns that estrogen worsens the triglyceride profiles of boys (while increasing HDL, which is good), and that testosterone increases both the systolic and the diastolic blood pressure among girls.



Spoiler: Full Text



*Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents*
Posted on 25th February 2019

*How big a problem is gender dysphoria?*
Prevalence estimates suggest male-to-female cases outnumber female-to-male cases, with 1 per 10,000 males and 1 per 27,000 females affected by gender dysphoria. These rates qualify for orphan designation status (defined by the European Union as one that affects less than 5 in 10,000 of the general population).

We know higher rates are observed in Western Europe and America, but the exact prevalence is difficult to estimate because the number of children and adolescents referred to services is still rising. As an example, UK referrals to the national Gender Identity Development Service (GIDs) has risen exponentially since 2011.




_Reference: Referrals to UK GID services:  Assessment and support of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria. Arch Dis Child 2018;103:631–6. doi:10.1136/archdischild-2018-314992_

*Treatments options for Gender Dysphoria*
The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Guidelines, on the clinical care of transgender adolescent, set out three stages of gender-affirming interventions with progressive levels of irreversibility:


*Stage 1, *puberty suppression
*Stage 2,* gender-affirming hormones
*Stage 3,* gender-affirming surgery
Guidelines require puberty to have begun (Tanner stage 2, when pubic hair and breast buds appear) before any intervention is agreed. This is because gender dysphoria may resolve once puberty begins. In 2008 the Endocrine Society approved puberty blockers for transgender adolescents as young as 12 years old.

To find the evidence for treatment options we first searched for systematic reviews. We used PubMed Clinical Queries to search for the reviews (see here).  We found two up to date reviews with overlapping trial results:


Hormonal Treatment in Young People With Gender Dysphoria: A Systematic Review.
Gender-affirming hormones and surgery in transgender children and adolescents.
There are other reviews you might want to take a look at, such as The effect of cross-sex hormonal treatment on gender dysphoria individuals’ mental health: a systematic review, and aSystematic Review of the Effects of Hormone Therapy on Psychological Functioning and Quality of Life in Transgender Individuals. We focused on the latest reviews in children and adolescents that reported a range of clinical outcome to inform decision making.

The first review Hormonal Treatment in Young People With Gender Dysphoria, searched Medline, Embase, and PubMed to June 10, 2017, and assessed risk of bias using a modified version of the Quality in Prognosis Studies, and published a protocol registered at PROSPERO (identifier CRD42017056670). The second, Hormonal Treatment in Young People With Gender Dysphoria, searched  MedLine and Embase, included studies when the mean or median age of the sample was below 18 years, reported information on the limitations of each study and set out research recommendations.

Together these reviews included 16 studies with 1,132 participants (transgender males n=615 (54%); transgender females 419 (37%) and 86 (7.6%) control subjects reported in two studies Burke (2016) and Staphorsius (2015). Controls were not matched for important confounders, which means caution should be applied to any conclusions. We found no randomized controlled trials or controlled trials.  See our evidence sheet for a summary of the 16 trials:

*Stage 1, Puberty suppression treatments*

Gonadotrophin-releasing hormone agonists (GnRHa) acts on GnRH receptors to suppress gonadotropin release. It can lower sex hormone levels by 95% in both sexes. In females GnRHa reduces the secretion of LH and FSH; in males, it shuts down gonadal testosterone production. For this reason, they are often referred to as puberty blockers. Stopping LH and FSH and testosterone secretion suspends maturation of fetal and neonatal germ cells leading to a loss of fertility. Little is known about its safety profile in the context of gender dysphoria: use is based largely on effects of treatment of central precocious puberty.

*The clinically used GnRH agonists are available in the following formulations:*


Short-acting injection: buserelin, histrelin, leuprorelin, triptorelin
A long-acting depot injection or injected pellet: leuprorelin, triptorelin
Injected implant: buserelin, goserelin, leuprorelin
Surgically implanted pellet: histrelin, leuprorelin
Nasal spray: buserelin, nafarelin
Evidence suggests that children will change their minds as they age: approximately ¾ of pre-pubescent children attending gender identity clinics will not want to change their gender once puberty starts. A prospective study of 77 gender dysphoric children (59 boys, 18 girls; mean age 8.4 years, range 5–12 years) referred to one clinic found that after 3.4 years of follow-up  27% (12 boys and nine girls) remained gender dysphoric.

We found ten studies that analysed the effects of puberty blockers: the median age of starting in transgender males in these trials was 15.0 years (median range 13.5 to 15.8 years), and in females, the median age was 15.1 years (range 13.6 to 16.5 years). *See evidence sheet:*

Vlot 2017reported the lowest median age in boys of 13.5 years; Schagen 2016, funded by an unrestricted grant from Ferring the makers of the study drug triptorelin, reported a median age of 13.6 years in transgender females for starting treatment. Six studies were funded by industry: 4 received funding from Ferring (Delemarre-van de Waal, Staphorsius (2015), Schagen 2016 and Hannema 2017).

The denominators in all of these ten studies are tiny and mostly from retrospective case reports or small case series. Many are done in single clinics and lack long term longitudinal outcomes on the effects (both benefits and harms) of puberty blockers. It also hard to disentangle effects from the use of gender affirming hormones. We found four studies reporting on the use of GnHRa alone: Schagen 2016 (n=128 ); Staphorsius (2015) (n=85); Costa 2015 (n=201) and Delemarre-van de Waal 2006 (n= 21).

Schagen 2016 studied the effects of Triptorelin in gender dysphoric adolescents and reported treatment did require adjusting because of insufficient suppression. They concluded further studies should evaluate whether the effects on height and body composition can be reversed during subsequent GAH treatment. Costa 2015reported that global functioning after psychological support and puberty suppression was improved.  Delemarre-van de Waal reported GnRHa treatment appeared to be important for the management of gender identity in transsexual adolescents. Finally, Staphorsius (2015), determined whether the performance on the Tower of London task cognitive task was altered with GnRHa and found no significant effects on task scores.

Problems within these studies, however, make it difficult to assess whether early pubertal changes regress under GnRHa treatment and whether prolonged puberty suppression is safe. For example, there is a lack of controls, and in one study that included controls, these were inadequate as relatives and friends of the participants were asked to participate, serving as age-matched controls. A  lack of blinding was also problematic One study (Costa 2015) that focused on a measure of psychosocial well-being highlighted that getting older has previously been positively associated with maturity and well-being (see Getting older, getting better? Personal strivings and psychological maturity across the life span.)

An Archive of Diseases in Childhood letter referred to GnRHa treatment as a  momentous step in the dark. And set out three main concerns: 1) young people are left in a state of ‘developmental limbo’ without secondary sexual characteristics that might consolidate gender identity; 2) use is likely to threaten the maturation of the adolescent mind, and 3) puberty blockers are being used in the context of profound scientific ignorance.

*Stage 2, Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone hormones (CSHs)*

Oestrogens and testosterone induce masculine or feminine physical characteristics, and SHOULD ONLY BE taken in the context of medical supervision to monitor risks (e.g., polycythaemia in transgender males, venous thromboembolism in transgender females).

For transgender females, oestrogen therapy alone is often insufficient to produce the desired feminising effects. Other treatments are therefore used in an off label manner.  For example spironolactone, an aldosterone antagonist with weak oestrogenic properties is commonly used to support oestrogen therapy – off label. Cyproterone acetate has progestational and antiandrogenic properties, but it can lead to hepatic toxicity including jaundice, hepatitis. Hepatic failure has also been reported (fatalities reported, usually after several months, at dosages of 100 mg and above).

*Specific effects of gender affirming hormones

Psychological effects*

Young transgender people may have mental health problems, including anxiety, and suicidal ideation. De Vries 2014 (n =55 transgender adolescents*) *assessed gender dysphoria, body satisfaction, at baseline, puberty suppression, and in adulthood. De Vries 2011 reported on the original cohort (n=70) that showed that emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased, while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression. High levels of bias with study participation mean the results should be treated with caution. The study found a decrease in gender dysphoria after surgery. However, it was not possible to disentangle the psychological benefits of hormone treatments from surgical interventions.

*Cognitive and brain-related effects*

Neuroimaging studies suggest CSHs affect brain structure and circuitries, ventricular volume and thickness, hypothalamic neuroplasticity, and functional connectivity. One study,  Burke (2016) (n=62) investigated GAHs and brain function in adolescents, reported that testosterone therapy in transgender males (n=21 mean age 16.1) was associated with altered cognitive processes, as assessed by the mental rotation task (MRT), a measure of visuospatial working memory that elicits cognitive sex differences. The study concluded that transgender males have atypical sexual differentiation of brain areas involved in visuospatial cognitive functioning.

*Bone development*

Klink 2015 found that lumbar spine bone mineral density scores fell during puberty suppression with GnRHa for transgender adolescent females but did not increase following oestrogen treatment.  Endocrine Society Guidelines state monitoring BMD parameters in transgender adolescents is recommended both prior to and during gender-affirming hormonal treatment.

*Haematological variables*

Testosterone therapies stimulate erythropoiesis. Increases in haemoglobin and haematocrit are an anticipated physiological response. Jarin 2017 (n =116) reported that testosterone therapy in transgender males (n=72) was associated with significant elevations in mean haemoglobin and haematocrit. Tack 2016 reported haemoglobin and haematocrit concentration variables increased but stabilised at six months. In transgender adolescent females estradiol. Olson-Kennedy 2018 report a significant decline in Hb concentrations after a 2-year course of estradiol.

*Cardiovascular Health*

Tack 2016; Jarin 2017 report no changes in LDL or triglycerides in the short term for transgender adolescent males. Olson-Kennedy 2018 report significant increases in triglyceride concentrations and  HDL after two years of oestrogen treatment. None of the studies showed significant changes in mean total cholesterol concentrations.  Olson-Kennedy 2018 report elevations in systolic and diastolic blood pressure with testosterone treatment after two years. Jarin 2017 reports no change in BP at six months. Jarin 2017, Olson-Kennedy 2018 and Tack 2016 report no changes in HbA, glucose, or insulin.

*Conclusions*

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent.  Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice.

---
*Carl Heneghan*
Editor in Chief BMJ EBM, Professor of EBM, University of Oxford

*Tom Jefferson*
Senior Associate Tutor University of Oxford
Visiting Professor Institute of Health & Society, Faculty of Medicine, Newcastle University

*Competing interests*

This evidence review was performed as part of a BBC Panorama documentary: Trans Kids: Why Medicine Matters, release date: 27 February 2019.

Carl has received expenses and fees for his media work including from BBC Inside Health. He holds grant funding from the NIHR, the NIHR School of Primary Care Research, The NIHR Oxford BRC  and the WHO. He has also received income from the publication of a series of toolkit books. CEBM jointly runs the EvidenceLiveConference with the BMJ and the Overdiagnosis Conference with some international partners which are based on a  non-profit model. Full disclosure here.  Tom received a fee for this work. Tom’s other disclosure is here


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Feb 28, 2019)

Positron said:


> Stopping LH and FSH and testosterone secretion suspends maturation of fetal and neonatal germ cells leading to a loss of fertility.



Interesting that they didn't mention the prevention of sexual maturity in males (stunted sex organs, no development of libido) and all the problems testosterone overdose/gnrh agonist cause for female bodies . It seems sexual health isn't a concern and/or this topic isn't trans friendly enough.


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## Wallace (Jul 5, 2020)

Signaling virtuous victimhood as indicators of Dark Triad personalities.

We investigate the consequences and predictors of emitting signals of victimhood and virtue. In our first three studies, we show that the virtuous victim signal can facilitate nonreciprocal resource transfer from others to the signaler. Next, we develop and validate a victim signaling scale that we combine with an established measure of virtue signaling to operationalize the virtuous victim construct. *We show that individuals with Dark Triad traits—Machiavellianism, Narcissism, Psychopathy—more frequently signal virtuous victimhood*, controlling for demographic and socioeconomic variables that are commonly associated with victimization in Western societies. In Study 5, we show that a specific dimension of Machiavellianism—amoral manipulation—and a form of narcissism that reflects a person’s belief in their superior prosociality predict more frequent virtuous victim signaling. Studies 3, 4, and 6 test our hypothesis that* the frequency of emitting virtuous victim signal predicts a person’s willingness to engage in and endorse ethically questionable behaviors*, such as lying to earn a bonus, intention to purchase counterfeit products and moral judgments of counterfeiters, and making exaggerated claims about being harmed in an organizational context. 

Behind a paywall, but it's nice to get some confirmation of what we already suspected.


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