# Should the African Union Abandon South Africa/Should Afrikaaners move back to Europe



## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (Apr 28, 2020)

Everyone knows that South Africa, while being one of the most developed African nations is also one of the most exceptional nations. A history of Bantus killing and outbreeding Khoisans, Zulus thinking they are kangs, Dutch people making their own safe spaces and then Cape Town. The British buying everyone like Disney, Apartheid, Apartheid dies, and then Race War ensues.
What's even worse was a growing concern for South Africans attacking their own neighbours and as we all know, the farmers (mainly Afrikaaners though blacks are prevelant too).
And if it comes to the African Union, they already have a few developed and large economies without South Africa anyways. Such as

Gabon (surpisngly decent gdp per capita given its region)
Botswana (largely growing economy and relatively stable antion with lots of diamonds)
Mauritius (high developed nation with one of the best gdp per capitas in africa)
Rwanda (Safest country in Africa and excellent for buisness)
Seychelles (very close to very high development, and a decent gdp per capita)
Namibia (stable nation with an ok economy)
Tanzania (one of the larger economies)
Egypt (this country sucks but it has a large economy)
Nigeria (for large economy)
Kenya (one of the alrger economies in africa and is again developing fast)
Ghana (good international relations and you college students know about the ability to go here abroad)
Tunisia (really the only free arab nation and is pretty developed)
Now onto the subject of the Afrikaaners. Since the 1600's, the Dutch have occupied Southern Africa, having developed a language, extremely large port, mixed with Zulus and other groups, heavily influenced politics, and along with Brits, had a big impact on the economy of South Africa.

So with the declining numbers of whites in SA pretty much for decades (approximately 50 years ago was 20% all the way down to 8.8% in modern times), Should south africans stay in neighbouring countries like Botswana and Namibia and probably start new farms there, or go back to "their roots".

(Sorry for this being messy I wanted to make this quick)


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## KingCoelacanth (Apr 28, 2020)

Afrikaaners can't go back to Europe even if they tried, they don't have citizenship for any country and have to go through the immigration process as a complete foreigner.  Since immigration in their "root" country tends to prefer diversity, they have little chance.
Anytime its brought up that Europe or any white country should let any Boers just back up and leave, its normally shot down with the argument that they should be focused on letting in non-whites.
Also many whites born in Africa see it as their home, so they wouldn't want to leave if it was up to them.


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## RichardMongler (Apr 28, 2020)

If Afrikaners wish to survive, then they will need to establish a Volkstaat by any means necessary and defend it by successfully developing nuclear weapons.

Just ask Pakistan and North Korea. The world is much more willing to deal with you if you've got nukes.


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## TFT-A9 (Apr 28, 2020)

The Boers should be fucking scouring the Bantu hellspawn off the face of the goddamn continent.


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## crocodilian (Apr 28, 2020)

The rhodies built every semblance of civilization in South Africa, which all but makes it their rightful inheritance. Implying it's somehow right that they flee and leave it all to floppies is about as ridiculous as allowing Detroit gangbangers to inherit the entire United States of America, and everything in it, because of slavery.

Jan Smutz, a known zionist, began to connect with other zionists (such as Chaim Weizmann), who had considerable issues with what he viewed as "systematic antisemitism" among South Africans. The most prominent was the Aliens Act, which was put in place to prevent Jews from fleeing Nazi Germany to settle in South Africa. This bad blood simmered in silence, as is often the case with Jews, until the nation of Israel grew and obtained the power they needed to get "revenge" on South Africa. Now the country is an infamous shithole and probably the single most realistic example of systemic white genocide in existence, outside of Haiti circa 1804.

What's happening in South Africa is nothing short of criminal, and if there was any justice in the world Israel would be paying white boers monetary reparations until every synagogue on the face of the earth was bankrupt.


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## MrJokerRager (Apr 29, 2020)

crocodilian said:


> The rhodies built every semblance of civilization in South Africa, which all but makes it their rightful inheritance. Implying it's somehow right that they flee and leave it all to floppies is about as ridiculous as allowing Detroit gangbangers to inherit the entire United States of America, and everything in it, because of slavery.
> 
> Jan Smutz, a known zionist, began to connect with other zionists (such as Chaim Weizmann), who had considerable issues with what he viewed as "systematic antisemitism" among South Africans. The most prominent was the Aliens Act, which was put in place to prevent Jews from fleeing Nazi Germany to settle in South Africa. This bad blood simmered in silence, as is often the case with Jews, until the nation of Israel grew and obtained the power they needed to get "revenge" on South Africa. Now the country is an infamous shithole and probably the single most realistic example of systemic white genocide in existence, outside of Haiti circa 1804.
> 
> What's happening in South Africa is nothing short of criminal, and if there was any justice in the world Israel would be paying white boers monetary reparations until every synagogue on the face of the earth was bankrupt.


Wasn't Israel supplying arms to the Apartheid era government and at one point trying to help it develop nukes if I remember right.


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## Cum Guzzler (Apr 29, 2020)

The decline is not in total population of whites in South Africa, which has actually seen growth in the past two years. The decline is in percentage of total population, which is a result of emigration and low fertility rates versus other ethnic populations. Are they supposed to collectively leave their home because it's popular or because they're not having enough children, or is there some other immediate reason?


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## Coleslaw (Apr 29, 2020)

Gabon is a dictatorship that uses oil wealth to inflate its GDP per capita. Same with Equatorial Guinea.


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## Donald Trump's Neck Vag (Apr 29, 2020)

No thanks. Europe already has enough immigrants coming from ultra-conservative regions who have questionable views on race. Don't need more. Couldn't care less about Africans, regardless of whether they're black or white. 

Besides, if all the whites move to Europe and are safe, how will the white identity politics crowd in the West fuel their persecution complex?


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (Apr 29, 2020)

Coleslaw said:


> Gabon is a dictatorship that uses oil wealth to inflate its GDP per capita. Same with Equatorial Guinea.


Oh yeah i forgot to mention that. They are corrupt



KingCoelacanth said:


> Afrikaaners can't go back to Europe even if they tried, they don't have citizenship for any country and have to go through the immigration process as a complete foreigner.  Since immigration in their "root" country tends to prefer diversity, they have little chance.
> Anytime its brought up that Europe or any white country should let any Boers just back up and leave, its normally shot down with the argument that they should be focused on letting in non-whites.
> Also many whites born in Africa see it as their home, so they wouldn't want to leave if it was up to them.


Just to let any of you know, I also think the idea for "the white man" to go back "home" is one of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard in my life. That is like telling Anglo-Whites in America to go back to England because of Lefties.



Homoerotic Cougar-kun said:


> The Boers should be fucking scouring the Bantu hellspawn off the face of the goddamn continent.


Are Khoisans cool in your book?


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## Rafal Gan Ganowicz (Apr 29, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> Are Khoisans cool in your book?


How could they not be? They of all people deserve to live there in peace,being theindigeneous population. It's the fucking Bantu invaders who are theproblem.


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## ConfederateIrishman (Apr 29, 2020)

The whole thing with the idea that Boers are native Africans at this point is the roughly same argument that the Dutch colonialists in Indonesia and the Pied-Noir in Algeria tried to make. In the last two cases that argument has been dead for over 50 years now and is now taboo to bring up.

tl;dr: Boers are fucked long term


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (Apr 29, 2020)

ConfederateIrishman said:


> The whole thing with the idea that Boers are native Africans at this point is the roughly same argument that the Dutch colonialists in Indonesia and the Pied-Noir in Algeria tried to make. In the last two cases that argument has been dead for over 50 years now and is now taboo to bring up.
> 
> tl;dr: Boers are fucked long term


At this point everything in South Africa should just disappear. Not even South Africa likes South Africa.

Also just for anyone to post here it would be nice to talk about the other part of the question, "Should the African Union Abandon South Africa"?


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## Some JERK (Apr 29, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> Also just for anyone to post here it would be nice to talk about the other part of the question, "Should the African Union Abandon South Africa"?


Everyone should abandon South Africa. We should use it to store our junk. Earth needs a basement and Antarctica is too cold and the South Africans can have Antarctica.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (Apr 29, 2020)

Some JERK said:


> Everyone should abandon South Africa. We should use it to store our junk. Earth needs a basement and Antarctica is too cold and the South Africans can have Antarctica.


But what about the Penguins? Also Chile and Argentina are right near to the Antarctic. You think they would want to share that land with South Africa out of all places?


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## Rafal Gan Ganowicz (Apr 29, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> But what about the Penguins? Also Chile and Argentina are right near to the Antarctic. You think they would want to share that land with South Africa out of all places?


If penguins ran the nation of SA, it would fare 10,000x better than being run by Bantus.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (Apr 29, 2020)

Rafal Gan Ganowicz said:


> If penguins ran the nation of SA, it would fare 10,000x better than being run by Bantus.


I mean they do have Jackass Penguins....hmmm


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## Rafal Gan Ganowicz (Apr 29, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> I mean they do have Jackass Penguins....hmmm


Do they have Filthy Animal Rapist Nigra penguins?


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## The best and greatest (Apr 29, 2020)

If things get bad enough forcibly partition the country to prevent genocidal race wars.


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## Return of the Freaker (Apr 29, 2020)

RichardMongler said:


> If Afrikaners wish to survive, then they will need to establish a Volkstaat by any means necessary and defend it by successfully developing nuclear weapons.


The vela incident in 1979 is widely thought to be a joint Israeli/South African test. By the late 80s South Africa had built 6 bombs. They agreed to voluntarily disarm and gave up their nukes in 1990.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (Apr 29, 2020)

Return of the Freaker said:


> The vela incident in 1979 is widely thought to be a joint Israeli/South African test. By the late 80s South Africa had built 6 bombs. They agreed to voluntarily disarm and gave up their nukes in 1990.


Oh yeah i remember that south africa pre 1990 was the only southern hemisphere country with nukes


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## NevskyProspekt (May 1, 2020)

I recall that Portuguese settlers have been returning to neighboring Mozambique in large numbers due to the shitty economic situation in Portugal. Botswana already has taken in plenty of Afrikaners, and whites make up ~4-5% of the population there. Honestly the most practical option would be to split SA either into a looser confederation of states or split it in two. The Cape Party, which consists primarily of Coloureds and Whites supporting the independence of the Northern and Western Cape (and a chuck of the Eastern Cape) already has decent support.

Edit: Doesn't Namibia still have a sizable German population?


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 1, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> I recall that Portuguese settlers have been returning to neighboring Mozambique in large numbers due to the shitty economic situation in Portugal. Botswana already has taken in plenty of Afrikaners, and whites make up ~4-5% of the population there. Honestly the most practical option would be to split SA either into a looser confederation of states or split it in two. The Cape Party, which consists primarily of Coloureds and Whites supporting the independence of the Northern and Western Cape (and a chuck of the Eastern Cape) already has decent support.
> View attachment 1266103


A loose confederation of states could "maintain the peace" of South Africa for awhile. A sort of balkanization of the country with Whites having the West, Xhosa with the South, and Zulu with the East may prevent more race-based attacks against peoples. Though a larger problem will arise with whites having the best region in the country: the western half, and the largest city Johannesburg being all the way east. (And not to mention obvious economic problems these new states will face especially with the Bantu groups)

Also I just realised the Portugal seems to not be very confrontational with their former colonies. Woah.


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## NevskyProspekt (May 1, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> A loose confederation of states could "maintain the peace" of South Africa for awhile. A sort of balkanization of the country with Whites having the West, Xhosa with the South, and Zulu with the East may prevent more race-based attacks against peoples. Though a larger problem will arise with whites having the best region in the country: the western half, and the largest city Johannesburg being all the way east. (And not to mention obvious economic problems these new states will face especially with the Bantu groups)
> 
> Also I just realised the Portugal seems to not be very confrontational with their former colonies. Woah.


Technically the Colourdes would constitute the majority of the West's population. Thankfully, they and the whites appear to be on better terms with each other, and both share a mutual distrust of the Zulus.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 1, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Technically the Colourdes would constitute the majority of the West's population. Thankfully, they and the whites appear to be on better terms with each other, and both share a mutual distrust of the Zulus.


Hey side note but what do you think of the nations bordering South Africa? You think they're much better?


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## Unyielding Stupidity (May 1, 2020)

The odds of Afrikaaners being able to continue living in South Africa for the foreseeable future is grim, to say the least. If the EFF ever gain power (Which is looking more and more likely as the situation worsens in South Africa), they are completely fucked with no remorse. Their best bet would be to hope that some third-party nation offers those with useful skills a fast-track to citizenship - most likely a neighbouring African country that needs skilled labour.

The same goes for pretty much every non-black ethnic group in South Africa - if the EFF ever gain power, they're all similarly fucked.


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## RichardMongler (May 2, 2020)

Return of the Freaker said:


> They agreed to voluntarily disarm and gave up their nukes in 1990.


I speculate South Africa's leaders saw the long-term consequences of pretending to be a democratic nation even under Apartheid. Eventually, a non-white person would have to be elected leader, and let's face it, would Nelson Mandela be a peaceful man if he had access to nuclear weapons? I think not.


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## NevskyProspekt (May 2, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> Hey side note but what do you think of the nations bordering South Africa? You think they're much better?


Botswana is better if we're looking at it from the standpoint of stability. It has been a stable, democratic state since its inception (a rarity in Sub-Saharan Africa) and has quite decent relations with its white minority. It probably helps that the nation's founder, Seretse Khama, had a white wife himself, which caused quite a stir from both the British and the local Tswana peoples, so I think he wanted to make sure race relations are as peaceful as possible from the start. Additionally, he outright rejected communism, instituted anti-corruption measures, maintained a very low income tax to discourage tax evasion, and made efforts to ensure that the newly independent bureaucracy hired on merit, ensuring that Botswana more or less bucked the trend of other newly independent African states. He was quite a remarkable leader.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 2, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Botswana is better if we're looking at it from the standpoint of stability. It has been a stable, democratic state since its inception (a rarity in Sub-Saharan Africa) and has quite decent relations with its white minority. It probably helps that the nation's founder, Seretse Khama, had a white wife himself, which caused quite a stir from both the British and the local Tswana peoples, so I think he wanted to make sure race relations are as peaceful as possible from the start. Additionally, he outright rejected communism, instituted anti-corruption measures, maintained a very low income tax to discourage tax evasion, and made efforts to ensure that the newly independent bureaucracy hired on merit, ensuring that Botswana more or less bucked the trend of other newly independent African states. He was quite a remarkable leader.
> 
> View attachment 1266768


Y'know botswana is less corrupt than even italy?


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## Coleslaw (May 2, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Botswana is better if we're looking at it from the standpoint of stability. It has been a stable, democratic state since its inception (a rarity in Sub-Saharan Africa) and has quite decent relations with its white minority. It probably helps that the nation's founder, Seretse Khama, had a white wife himself, which caused quite a stir from both the British and the local Tswana peoples, so I think he wanted to make sure race relations are as peaceful as possible from the start. Additionally, he outright rejected communism, instituted anti-corruption measures, maintained a very low income tax to discourage tax evasion, and made efforts to ensure that the newly independent bureaucracy hired on merit, ensuring that Botswana more or less bucked the trend of other newly independent African states. He was quite a remarkable leader.
> 
> View attachment 1266768


He is one of the few Africans I admire.


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## jje100010001 (May 2, 2020)

The best and greatest said:


> If things get bad enough forcibly partition the country to prevent genocidal race wars.


Unfortunately probably the case- consolidating the Afrikaner and Coloured populations in the western half of the country is the only way out.

Anything else is death by a thousand cuts, and a slow march towards Julius Malema- an unhappy end for all races involved.


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## Super-Chevy454 (May 2, 2020)

Coleslaw said:


> He is one of the few Africans I admire.



Indeed, too bad Mugabe didn't followed his example.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 2, 2020)

Super-Chevy454 said:


> Indeed, too bad Mugabe didn't followed his example.


More like MuGAYbe


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## Super-Chevy454 (May 2, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> More like MuGAYbe



And this is the kind of games Mugabe played with his buddies.


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (May 3, 2020)

NO

STAND YOUR GROUND

IT IS BETTER TO DIE GLORIOUSLY THAN TO RETREAT LIKE A COWARD

By the way, you know the reason Mauritius has a high GDP per capita? Well, neither do I, but I suspect it has something to do with it not actually being African. The island was discovered by Europeans and settled up with Asian Indian coolies, who now inhabit the island. I've got one (a Mauritian woman) as a professor, who I want to fuck real badly. Just since OP mentioned Mauritius in his post.


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## NevskyProspekt (May 3, 2020)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> NO
> 
> STAND YOUR GROUND
> 
> ...


Pretty certain being prime tourism real estate helps. Similar island states in Africa, such as Cape Verde and Sao Tome & Principe have decently developed economies as well.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 3, 2020)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> NO
> 
> STAND YOUR GROUND
> 
> ...


While I do appreciate your love for Mauritius, using their non Sub-Saharan African DNA as a reason is pretty absurd. Madagascar has people with DNA traced all the way back to Borneo and even Austronesian peoples. Yet they are one of the poorest countries in the world.  Also Ethiopia and Somalia are known to be c caucasoid nations. Yet they too are fucking shit holes.



NevskyProspekt said:


> Pretty certain being prime tourism real estate helps. Similar island states in Africa, such as Cape Verde and Sao Tome & Principe have decently developed economies as well.


Would Tanzania count as well?


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## NevskyProspekt (May 3, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> Would Tanzania count as well?


I do not know enough about Tanzania to say one way or the other.


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## Vajze Shqiptare (May 3, 2020)

Afrikaners should convert to Islam and then attack the European borders en masse and rape women and riot.

All the European countries will let them in because of the beautiful diversity they'll provide


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## NeoGAF Lurker (May 3, 2020)

There was a recent attempt by Australia to offer sanctuary to the Boers and it was stopped by the usual screeching leftists. Russia has extended an offer to give sanctuary to 15,000 white farmers in 2018.

My understanding is most Boers remain because they want to. Not because they think the ANC or EFF are good people but because they believe it is their land. The Afrikaner question will not be dealt with until boomers are mostly dead. To be caught helping the people who Nelson Mandela opposed goes against everything they stood for that one summer in the mid-1980s when they stopped drinking Coca Cola for a few weeks.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 3, 2020)

NeoGAF Lurker said:


> There was a recent attempt by Australia to offer sanctuary to the Boers and it was stopped by the usual screeching leftists. Russia has extended an offer to give sanctuary to 15,000 white farmers in 2018.
> 
> My understanding is most Boers remain because they want to. Not because they think the ANC or MFF are good people but because they believe it is their land. The Afrikaner question will not be dealt with until boomers are mostly dead. To be caught helping the people who Nelson Mandela opposed goes against everything they stood for that one summer in the mid-1980s when they stopped drinking Coca Cola for a few weeks.


Tbf boers compared to brits are very retarded


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## millais (May 3, 2020)

The collapse of the national electric grid within the next few years will force a resolution to that sticky Native Question which has dogged South Africa since its inception as an artificial construct of the British Empire in 1910. South Africa may have dodged the Covid-19 bullet, but Eskom's electrical infrastructure is already past the point of no return, with total failure to be expected by the end of the 2020s at the absolute latest. Load shedding is just a bandage on an already fatal bullet wound, and the construction of new power plants by the Chinese is not going to be finished in time to delay the inevitable catastrophic failure.

At that time, everybody in the country will need to gear up for the Boogaloo, and who knows whether the Boers will survive it. Definitely it will be the greatest existential threat to their continued survival as a volk in their entire history. The loss of 1/6th of their population (30k out of 200k) in the 1899-1902 war will be small potatoes compared to the numbers who will die in the Boogaloo. I think their best bet is to make a stand in the remoter areas of the Western Cape, where the lower population density means they will not be immediately swamped by hordes of starving Bantus when the power goes out for good. Maybe in the Karoo or on the borders of the Kalahari. I think Orania has the right idea in terms of locating itself in lower population density region. Plus the Afrikaans-speaking Cape Coloureds in Western Cape would not take kindly to invading Bantus either.

It's going to be a total bloodbath in the former provinces of the Transvaal and Free State, where the Bantus are everywhere in droves. Same in KZN, where the Zulus and Xhosas will end up fighting it out.

I'm not sure whether Cape Party will be able to make itself into a politically viable separatist movement. I've heard it described as a meme party, though obviously with some real grassroots supports unlike other astroturfed meme parties like ZACP. The time is probably over for a political solution, since the electrical grid will probably fail before the next national elections. Better to invest time and resources in preparing for the Boogaloo.

Also, just a note regarding spelling. It's Afrikaners and Afrikaans. The double vowel is only necessary when the vowel is the last syllable of the word. So for instance, it's supposed to be Transvalers and Transvaal. The often misused spelling of "Transvaaler" is an Anglicism.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 4, 2020)

millais said:


> The collapse of the national electric grid within the next few years will force a resolution to that sticky Native Question which has dogged South Africa since its inception as an artificial construct of the British Empire in 1910. South Africa may have dodged the Covid-19 bullet, but Eskom's electrical infrastructure is already past the point of no return, with total failure to be expected by the end of the 2020s at the absolute latest. Load shedding is just a bandage on an already fatal bullet wound, and the construction of new power plants by the Chinese is not going to be finished in time to delay the inevitable catastrophic failure.
> 
> At that time, everybody in the country will need to gear up for the Boogaloo, and who knows whether the Boers will survive it. Definitely it will be the greatest existential threat to their continued survival as a volk in their entire history. The loss of 1/6th of their population (30k out of 200k) in the 1899-1902 war will be small potatoes compared to the numbers who will die in the Boogaloo. I think their best bet is to make a stand in the remoter areas of the Western Cape, where the lower population density means they will not be immediately swamped by hordes of starving Bantus when the power goes out for good. Maybe in the Karoo or on the borders of the Kalahari. I think Orania has the right idea in terms of locating itself in lower population density region. Plus the Afrikaans-speaking Cape Coloureds in Western Cape would not take kindly to invading Bantus either.
> 
> ...


Oh I myself had no idea about the plural form only needing one vowel. Though since there might be a bloodbath, I have no idea on how the Indian and other Asian populations would survive after 2020.


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## Iwasamwillbe (May 4, 2020)

Redraw Africa's borders to better fit the history, linguistics, and ethnography of the region. There, done.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 4, 2020)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> Redraw Africa's borders to better fit the history, linguistics, and ethnography of the region. There, done.


With their like 3000 ethnic groups thats gonna be hard as shit


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (May 4, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> While I do appreciate your love for Mauritius, using their non Sub-Saharan African DNA as a reason is pretty absurd. Madagascar has people with DNA traced all the way back to Borneo and even Austronesian peoples. Yet they are one of the poorest countries in the world.  Also Ethiopia and Somalia are known to be c caucasoid nations. Yet they too are fucking shit holes.



Who said DNA? Not being African can have effects that aren't caused by the blood, like coming from more developed societies which have a longer tradition of European-style rule and production techniques that would then allow for the people there to be more developed. Even just Indian advancement would be better.

Another option? India may be a highly diverse nation, but take its people out of their homeland and cram them together, and will that diversity matter? I don't know if this is how it is there, but I could easily imagine them merging into a fairly homogeneous population like America (I may sperg about American demographics, but it's obvious to everybody that the differences between kinds of Americans is way less than that between, say, the kinds of Europeans who settled America). Contrast that with highly diverse but traditional African nations where they have more incentive to wage war on each other 24/7.

Also, Austronesians aren't what I think of as a particularly advanced people... aren't they an even more ancient race, same broad group that Aborigines are part of? For that matter, do you know anything about industrialization in 1800s Madagascar? I've heard that they had this crazy queen who tried to pull a Meiji down there, but I've never really read anything on it, I mean to at some point.

But more than anything, @NevskyProspekt is probably right on it with his idea of Islander Advantage. I've noticed that city-states tend to do really well, which is arguably an unfair comparison to large countries because a large country can't JUST be all city. Islands could probably be the same way, little island countries being able to really develop into trade and tourism and the like and not having their stats dragged down by the living standard metrics of a large countryside.


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## uncleShitHeel (May 4, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Botswana is better if we're looking at it from the standpoint of stability. It has been a stable, democratic state since its inception (a rarity in Sub-Saharan Africa) and has quite decent relations with its white minority. It probably helps that the nation's founder, Seretse Khama, had a white wife himself, which caused quite a stir from both the British and the local Tswana peoples, so I think he wanted to make sure race relations are as peaceful as possible from the start. Additionally, he outright rejected communism, instituted anti-corruption measures, maintained a very low income tax to discourage tax evasion, and made efforts to ensure that the newly independent bureaucracy hired on merit, ensuring that Botswana more or less bucked the trend of other newly independent African states. He was quite a remarkable leader.
> 
> View attachment 1266768



It's technically Sir Seretse Khama but that's neither here nor there. He really was a great leader. 

I'd wager many folks here in the west first heard of him via the film A United Kingdom.


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 4, 2020)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> Who said DNA? Not being African can have effects that aren't caused by the blood, like coming from more developed societies which have a longer tradition of European-style rule and production techniques that would then allow for the people there to be more developed. Even just Indian advancement would be better.
> 
> Another option? India may be a highly diverse nation, but take its people out of their homeland and cram them together, and will that diversity matter? I don't know if this is how it is there, but I could easily imagine them merging into a fairly homogeneous population like America (I may sperg about American demographics, but it's obvious to everybody that the differences between kinds of Americans is way less than that between, say, the kinds of Europeans who settled America). Contrast that with highly diverse but traditional African nations where they have more incentive to wage war on each other 24/7.
> 
> ...





Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> Who said DNA? Not being African can have effects that aren't caused by the blood, like coming from more developed societies which have a longer tradition of European-style rule and production techniques that would then allow for the people there to be more developed. Even just Indian advancement would be better.
> 
> Another option? India may be a highly diverse nation, but take its people out of their homeland and cram them together, and will that diversity matter? I don't know if this is how it is there, but I could easily imagine them merging into a fairly homogeneous population like America (I may sperg about American demographics, but it's obvious to everybody that the differences between kinds of Americans is way less than that between, say, the kinds of Europeans who settled America). Contrast that with highly diverse but traditional African nations where they have more incentive to wage war on each other 24/7.
> 
> ...


Tbh the only part of africa that would be cursed due to enviornment and not used to european style rule would be central. Central africa is shit.

Wait now that I think about it, why the fuck would elites buy off people and don't ezpect and uprising


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## Stoneheart (May 4, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Edit: Doesn't Namibia still have a sizable German population?


not realy, but they have good relationships



TrannyJanny said:


> Y'know botswana is less corrupt than even italy?


thats not so hard...



millais said:


> At that time, everybody in the country will need to gear up for the Boogaloo, and who knows whether the Boers will survive it. Definitely it will be the greatest existential threat to their continued survival as a volk in their entire history. The loss of 1/6th of their population (30k out of 200k) in the 1899-1902 war will be small potatoes compared to the numbers who will die in the Boogaloo. I think their best bet is to make a stand in the remoter areas of the Western Cape, where the lower population density means they will not be immediately swamped by hordes of starving Bantus when the power goes out for good.


Well living rural is always better, but i dont see their chances so slim.


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## Cedric_Eff (May 4, 2020)

Just give up South Africa to Israel. The Israelis were supplying SA with nukes back then.


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## millais (May 4, 2020)

Cedric_Eff said:


> Just give up South Africa to Israel. The Israelis were supplying SA with nukes back then.


SA was mining and processing its own uranium. Israel was selling SA licenses for the manufacture of Galil assault rifle, Mirage III fighter upgrade package, Centurion tank upgrade package, and some naval corvette upgrade package (I forget the name)

Israel won't be able to fix SA. No one will be able to fix SA. The deterioration of the electric grid is already past the point of no return. When the power goes out, the urban masses will starve and there will be an all out inter-tribal civil war and ethnic cleansings of a severity unseen since the days of the Mfecane.


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## Cedric_Eff (May 4, 2020)

millais said:


> SA was mining and processing its own uranium. Israel was selling SA licenses for the manufacture of Galil assault rifle, Mirage III fighter upgrade package, Centurion tank upgrade package, and some naval corvette upgrade package (I forget the name)
> 
> Israel won't be able to fix SA. No one will be able to fix SA. The deterioration of the electric grid is already past the point of no return. When the power goes out, the urban masses will starve and there will be an all out inter-tribal civil war and ethnic cleansings of a severity unseen since the days of the Mfecane.


What about the Atlantic anomaly? The so-called South African-Israeli Nuke test?


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## millais (May 4, 2020)

Cedric_Eff said:


> What about the Atlantic anomaly? The so-called South African-Israeli Nuke test?


They definitely exchanged technical data and fissionable materials for nuclear weapons. But it wasn't just a simple transaction of Israeli nukes for South African gold/diamonds. Both states were learning from the other in the area of nuclear weapons development.


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## Coleslaw (May 5, 2020)

millais said:


> The collapse of the national electric grid within the next few years will force a resolution to that sticky Native Question which has dogged South Africa since its inception as an artificial construct of the British Empire in 1910. South Africa may have dodged the Covid-19 bullet, but Eskom's electrical infrastructure is already past the point of no return, with total failure to be expected by the end of the 2020s at the absolute latest. Load shedding is just a bandage on an already fatal bullet wound, and the construction of new power plants by the Chinese is not going to be finished in time to delay the inevitable catastrophic failure.
> 
> At that time, everybody in the country will need to gear up for the Boogaloo, and who knows whether the Boers will survive it. Definitely it will be the greatest existential threat to their continued survival as a volk in their entire history. The loss of 1/6th of their population (30k out of 200k) in the 1899-1902 war will be small potatoes compared to the numbers who will die in the Boogaloo. I think their best bet is to make a stand in the remoter areas of the Western Cape, where the lower population density means they will not be immediately swamped by hordes of starving Bantus when the power goes out for good. Maybe in the Karoo or on the borders of the Kalahari. I think Orania has the right idea in terms of locating itself in lower population density region. Plus the Afrikaans-speaking Cape Coloureds in Western Cape would not take kindly to invading Bantus either.
> 
> ...


Should we make a separate South Africa thread so you can regale me with your Afrikaner autism?


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## millais (May 5, 2020)

Coleslaw said:


> Should we make a separate South Africa thread so you can regale me with your Afrikaner autism?


There are real Saffers here who can blow my passing knowledge on the affairs of their country out of the water. I just read a lot of books in uni.


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## BiggusDickus (May 5, 2020)

Instead of abandoning South Africa would the Union scheme to fuck South Africa over into smaller countries or do some annexing?


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 5, 2020)

BiggusDickus said:


> Instead of abandoning South Africa would the Union scheme to fuck South Africa over into smaller countries or do some annexing?


I guess it might, Probably Namibia would take the West and Mozambique to the East


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## NevskyProspekt (May 5, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> I guess it might, Probably Namibia would take the West and Mozambique to the East


There are around one million whites in the Northern and Western Cape alone (7% and 17% of the total provincial populations, respectively) so if Namibia were to annex those provinces (combined with arid Namibia's very low population already) whites would jump to nearly a third of the greater Namibian state (whites already make up 7% of Namibia's population, about the same proportion as UDI-era Rhodesia at its height). If they team up with the Coloureds who are either a majority or plurality in both Cape Provinces, and also share extensive Afrikaans linguistic and cultural ties, they would have immense influence in the greater Namibian state's political processes. Quite an interesting speculation indeed. Southern African wild-west when?


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## Ozma (ZeTrannyJanny) (May 5, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> There are around one million whites in the Northern and Western Cape alone (7% and 17% of the total provincial populations, respectively) so if Namibia were to annex those provinces (combined with arid Namibia's very low population already) whites would jump to nearly a third of the greater Namibian state (whites already make up 7% of Namibia's population, about the same proportion as UDI-era Rhodesia at its height). If they team up with the Coloureds who are either a majority or plurality in both Cape Provinces, and also share extensive Afrikaans linguistic and cultural ties, they would have immense influence in the greater Namibian state's political processes. Quite an interesting speculation indeed. Southern African wild-west when?


A southern african wild west actually sounds like a cool ass movie. Will there be a Khoisan version of Sitting Bull?


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## BiggusDickus (May 5, 2020)

I just feel unlike Rwanda, South Africa has areas of interest in resources that the rest of the world would care to give a shit if the whole place goes belly up. How this will go is another matter.

In the end who's going to get fucked the most by who?


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## NevskyProspekt (May 5, 2020)

TrannyJanny said:


> A southern african wild west actually sounds like a cool ass movie. Will there be a Khoisan version of Sitting Bull?


Man, how crazy would that be? You have all sorts of factions and groups. The Coloureds teaming up with the Afrikaners, the Ovambo, the Namibian Germans (stats estimate there are still 30,000 German native-speakers in the country, so still quite sizable), the Anglos, the Basters, Kavango, and Herero, and then you add diamond reserves to the mix? It combines the mystique of rugged survivalists and exoticism of Southern Africa. Cowboys set to township jive and Paul Simon tunes.


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## NevskyProspekt (May 8, 2020)

Many apologies for the double post, but in the event of a South African boogaloo, how do y'all think the urban warfare would take place? Most major urban neighborhoods regardless of ethnicity in the eastern half of SA tend to be walled in, and South Africa's geography is so variable that we could see wildly different methods of strife depending on the city. For example, Nelspruit and Durban are much, much more hilly compared to Bloemfontein which seems to be flat as a pancake. One can imagine Nelspruit enduring a Sarajevo-like scenario if the Zulus decide to attack from the hills.


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## TaimuRadiu (May 8, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Many apologies for the double post, but in the event of a South African boogaloo, how do y'all think the urban warfare would take place? Most major urban neighborhoods regardless of ethnicity in the eastern half of SA tend to be walled in, and South Africa's geography is so variable that we could see wildly different methods of strife depending on the city. For example, Nelspruit and Durban are much, much more hilly compared to Bloemfontein which seems to be flat as a pancake. One can imagine Nelspruit enduring a Sarajevo-like scenario if the Zulus decide to attack from the hills.


Hasn't SA been in a low level state of civil war ever since the ANC took power?


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## Coleslaw (May 8, 2020)

crocodilian said:


> The rhodies built every semblance of civilization in South Africa, which all but makes it their rightful inheritance. Implying it's somehow right that they flee and leave it all to floppies is about as ridiculous as allowing Detroit gangbangers to inherit the entire United States of America, and everything in it, because of slavery.
> 
> Jan Smutz, a known zionist, began to connect with other zionists (such as Chaim Weizmann), who had considerable issues with what he viewed as "systematic antisemitism" among South Africans. The most prominent was the Aliens Act, which was put in place to prevent Jews from fleeing Nazi Germany to settle in South Africa. This bad blood simmered in silence, as is often the case with Jews, until the nation of Israel grew and obtained the power they needed to get "revenge" on South Africa. Now the country is an infamous shithole and probably the single most realistic example of systemic white genocide in existence, outside of Haiti circa 1804.
> 
> What's happening in South Africa is nothing short of criminal, and if there was any justice in the world Israel would be paying white boers monetary reparations until every synagogue on the face of the earth was bankrupt.


Keep in mind one of the main drafters of the UN Charter was a South African, and after his death they repaid him by sanctioning his country into the ground.


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## NevskyProspekt (May 8, 2020)

TaimuRadiu said:


> Hasn't SA been in a low level state of civil war ever since the ANC took power?


        Not exactly. There have been occasional flare ups here and there - some of which long preceded the fall of apartheid - but it’s mostly been through the bureaucratic system. Mayors, municipalities, provincial heads and so on trying to woo various groups, and overlooking certain criminal acts because doing so could damage their street cred. As with many things in South Africa, this behavior is not exclusive to any one ethnic group, but it is more visible by some because of the demographic percentages depending on a given area of the country, and there are also class distinctions as well which don’t always have a racial component.

        For example, I’ve noticed a tendency within Afrikanerdom to differentiate between the urbanized business-minded elites/managerial types that emerged during and after the establishment of Apartheid (you saw this a LOT in what is today Gauteng province) and the more old school Boer farmer types that are more concentrated in the western half of the country, former Transvaal and Orange Free State. It’s a similar distinction to say, the Boston Brahmins and Appalachian types. Then, there’s the Anglo South Africans who form what I perceive to be the ‘typical’ white middle classes of South Africa in cities like Port Elizabeth, Cape Town, Durban, and Knysna - coastal types. After the fall of Apartheid there was a considerable new Black middle class that tended to be more pan-South African and less tribal, and they probably wouldn’t get along very well with those who currently inhabit many of the townships. There are some townships, however, that have been somewhat gentrified after Apartheid was dismantled, like Soweto.

      As for the ridiculous crime levels in places like Johannesburg and Cape Flats today, that’s pretty much comparable to the favelas in some Latin American countries. South Africa in general seems to have a very schizophrenic socio-political environment, but it’s not *quite* at low level civil war like the Troubles were in Northern Ireland yet. To be honest, it's pretty impressive that SA has lasted in its current state this long. Say what you will about Nelson Mandela, he certainly changed his tune from what it was before he was sent to prison. He made strides during his presidency to reach out to the white population and reassure them they did have a place in post-Apartheid South Africa, formed a strong partnership with F. W. de Klerk and most importantly, he set a precedent by *willingly* relinquishing power after a single term in office. I think it's quite telling that a lot of the more serious troubles you see in contemporary South Africa - particularly the rise of the E.F.F. - largely emerged after Mandela died. I suspect many of the more radical elements in the A.N.C were waiting for him to die.


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## BiggusDickus (May 10, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Man, how crazy would that be? You have all sorts of factions and groups. The Coloureds teaming up with the Afrikaners, the Ovambo, the Namibian Germans (stats estimate there are still 30,000 German native-speakers in the country, so still quite sizable), the Anglos, the Basters, Kavango, and Herero, and then you add diamond reserves to the mix? It combines the mystique of rugged survivalists and exoticism of Southern Africa. Cowboys set to township jive and Paul Simon tunes.


The national mythos will be complete if they can beat off resistance to the secession with a climatic battle.



NevskyProspekt said:


> Many apologies for the double post, but in the event of a South African boogaloo, how do y'all think the urban warfare would take place? Most major urban neighborhoods regardless of ethnicity in the eastern half of SA tend to be walled in, and South Africa's geography is so variable that we could see wildly different methods of strife depending on the city. For example, Nelspruit and Durban are much, much more hilly compared to Bloemfontein which seems to be flat as a pancake. One can imagine Nelspruit enduring a Sarajevo-like scenario if the Zulus decide to attack from the hills.


I imagine lots of machetes involved to chop up people after seeing that movie about Rwanda. But unlike Rwanda, South Africa has lots of private security who will pick their sides when it's time for the boogaloo.


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## NevskyProspekt (May 11, 2020)

BiggusDickus said:


> The national mythos will be complete if they can beat off resistance to the secession with a climatic battle.
> 
> 
> I imagine lots of machetes involved to chop up people after seeing that movie about Rwanda. But unlike Rwanda, South Africa has lots of private security who will pick their sides when it's time for the boogaloo.


Yeah, the weapons used probably wouldn't be blades like 90's Rwanda. South Africa is much more developed and modern arms are expected. There's a decent chance you'll see a flood of leftover war materiel over the Mozambique border. It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese try to tip the scales in their favor as well. They were suspected of triggering the removal and replacement of ol' Bobby Mugabe with Emmerson Mnangagwa in Zimbabwe.


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## AnimeGirlConnoisseur (May 11, 2020)

RichardMongler said:


> If Afrikaners wish to survive, then they will need to establish a Volkstaat by any means necessary and defend it by successfully developing nuclear weapons.
> 
> Just ask Pakistan and North Korea. The world is much more willing to deal with you if you've got nukes.


Well this is the correct answer if you're trying to establish a nation-state, but I don't know if Boers can do that or want to do that. Remember, most of these people are just farmers. The best course of action for individual Boers is just to get out of South Afirca, take as much money with them, and try to set up shop in the west or some other African country that doesn't hate them.


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## millais (May 15, 2020)

Coleslaw said:


> Keep in mind one of the main drafters of the UN Charter was a South African, and after his death they repaid him by sanctioning his country into the ground.


Jan Smuts was a globalist though, so he probably would have been ok with everything that happened after he died. They may not have had a word for it back then, but since 1902 he was always behind surrendering local autonomy and independence in exchange for reaping the benefits of a globalized economy and national-political order. First with Union in 1910, then becoming an ardent supporter of Empire in the leadup to 1914, then trying to shill for the Commonwealth and League of Nations after the war, and finally becoming a founder of the UN. He even developed an entire personal philosophy called "holism" based on the idea of improving things (countries, organizations, people, etc) by subjugating/uniting smaller parts into larger systems and groupings.


NevskyProspekt said:


> Yeah, the weapons used probably wouldn't be blades like 90's Rwanda. South Africa is much more developed and modern arms are expected. There's a decent chance you'll see a flood of leftover war materiel over the Mozambique border. It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese try to tip the scales in their favor as well. They were suspected of triggering the removal and replacement of ol' Bobby Mugabe with Emmerson Mnangagwa in Zimbabwe.


Used to be people were always worrying about RPGs and RPKs and other old weapons caches being smuggled over the Mozambique border, but now corruption and security is so bad that criminal gangs in SA are just strolling into SANDF bases and armories and driving off with truckloads of R4s and ammo


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## Coleslaw (May 16, 2020)

millais said:


> Jan Smuts was a globalist though, so he probably would have been ok with everything that happened after he died. They may not have had a word for it back then, but since 1902 he was always behind surrendering local autonomy and independence in exchange for reaping the benefits of a globalized economy and national-political order. First with Union in 1910, then becoming an ardent supporter of Empire in the leadup to 1914, then trying to shill for the Commonwealth and League of Nations after the war, and finally becoming a founder of the UN. He even developed an entire personal philosophy called "holism" based on the idea of improving things (countries, organizations, people, etc) by subjugating/uniting smaller parts into larger systems and groupings.
> 
> Used to be people were always worrying about RPGs and RPKs and other old weapons caches being smuggled over the Mozambique border, but now corruption and security is so bad that criminal gangs in SA are just strolling into SANDF bases and armories and driving off with truckloads of R4s and ammo


Many countries would kill to have two ethnic groups reconcile as well as the Afrikaners and Anglos.


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## BiggusDickus (May 17, 2020)

NevskyProspekt said:


> Yeah, the weapons used probably wouldn't be blades like 90's Rwanda. South Africa is much more developed and modern arms are expected. There's a decent chance you'll see a flood of leftover war materiel over the Mozambique border. It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese try to tip the scales in their favor as well. They were suspected of triggering the removal and replacement of ol' Bobby Mugabe with Emmerson Mnangagwa in Zimbabwe.


I can see blades to be used for the lowest ranked members who want to be extra cruel slitting throats or doing beheadings. Ol' Bobby getting replaced was rather funny. He thought he'd stay there until he dropped dead thinking he won but his own party overthrew him.


millais said:


> Used to be people were always worrying about RPGs and RPKs and other old weapons caches being smuggled over the Mozambique border, but now corruption and security is so bad that criminal gangs in SA are just strolling into SANDF bases and armories and driving off with truckloads of R4s and ammo


South Africa's going to get a bunch of warlords when it all goes to shit from how you describe it.


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## The best and greatest (May 17, 2020)

BiggusDickus said:


> I can see blades to be used for the lowest ranked members who want to be extra cruel slitting throats or doing beheadings. Ol' Bobby getting replaced was rather funny. He thought he'd stay there until he dropped dead thinking he won but his own party overthrew him.
> 
> South Africa's going to get a bunch of warlords when it all goes to shit from how you describe it.


Even those low-rank goons will need something  if  people start shooting unless the idea is to just run away or hunker down until the guys with real weapons take care of it  and then just perform cleanup duty like some kind of lowly scavenger?


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## jje100010001 (May 17, 2020)

Coleslaw said:


> Many countries would kill to have two ethnic groups reconcile as well as the Afrikaners and Anglos.


I suppose it helps when both groups are minorities, and are faced with dealing with vastly different and more populous ethnic groups. The fact that the two groups are sort of identified together under the 'white' label also pushes some degree of unity and cultural merging (i.e. the use of Afrikaans).

Historical squabbles are set aside in the name of survival (unlike in say, Canada, where some Quebeckers can get notoriously petty over their perceived grievances).


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## BiggusDickus (May 17, 2020)

The best and greatest said:


> Even those low-rank goons will need something  if  people start shooting unless the idea is to just run away or hunker down until the guys with real weapons take care of it  and then just perform cleanup duty like some kind of lowly scavenger?


Difficult to say. If the people they target have loads of guns it'll be difficult for robbery and rape to occur but I'm sure like the interahamwe, there's the common thug with machete and clubs to senior members with a pistol or rifle who know how to shoot.

I don't know about the current army after it's downsizing after apartheid. Some say on the internet their quality is subpar and disgrace to the old one. But as they have access to military equipment they'll have a role in what happens when everything goes to shit.


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## BiggusDickus (Sep 28, 2020)

@NevskyProspekt I forgot about them but where do you think Orania will end up? Is it near the border or stuck in the middle of SA? It's the Afrikaner only town I know of that has a good quality of life that you can leave something valuable in the open and not get it stolen.

If the worst outcome happens it will be where bandits will see it as a loot field to rape and steal for anything valuable or if they're really intent on making sure Orania stays dead they'll get elements of the army to blow the shit out of it if it's too well fortified.


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