# Is the "feminine beauty ideal" genuinely harmful, in some sense, to women?



## Iwasamwillbe (Jun 14, 2019)

From Wikipedia, making it pretty much an authentic summary of the modern feminist beliefs about this:






						Feminine beauty ideal - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






> Pressure to conform to a certain definition of "beautiful" can have psychological effects, such as depression, eating disorders, and low self-esteem, starting from an adolescent age and continuing into adulthood.


Basically, excessive pressure to look good can cause mental disorders.



> Advertisements for products "such as diets, cosmetics, and exercise gear [help] the media construct a dream world of hopes and high standards that incorporates the glorification of slenderness and weight loss."


Slenderness and weight loss are "glorified" by the unrealistic beauty standards the media puts on women.



> With a focus on an ideal physical appearance, the feminine beauty ideal distracts from female competency by prioritizing and valuing superficial characteristics related to beauty and appearance. When physical beauty is idealized and featured in the media, it reduces women to sexualized objects. This creates the message across mass media that one's body is inadequate apart from sex appeal and connects concepts of beauty and sex.


When female beauty is idealized, it is apparently necessarily at the expense to the valuing of the female's actual ability, and makes women out to be mere sex objects.



> _The Dove Beauty and Confidence Report_ interviewed 10,500 females across thirteen countries and found that women's confidence in their body image is steadily declining - regardless of age or geographic location. Despite these findings, there is a strong desire to fight existing beauty ideals. In fact, 71% of women and 67% of girls want the media to do a better job of portraying different types of women. Studies done by Dove reveal low self esteem impacts women and girls' ability to release their true potential. 85% of women and 79% of girls admit they opt out of important life activities when they do not feel confident in the way they look. More than half of women (69%) and girls (65%) allude to pressure from the media and advertisements to become the world's version of beautiful, which is a driving force of appearance anxiety. Studies done by Dove have also revealed the following statistics: "4% of women consider themselves beautiful, 11% of girls globally are comfortable with describing themselves as beautiful, 72% of girls feel pressure to be beautiful, 80% of women agree that every woman has something about her that is beautiful, but do not see their own beauty, and that 54% of women agree that when it comes to how they look, they are their own worst beauty critic."


I have a weird feeling those statistics are bugged in some way.



> According to evidence gathered from a study focusing on general Instagram use in young women, researchers suggest Instagram usage was positively correlated with women’s self-objectification.


Self-objectification is now a thing.



> In addition to researching the effects of general Instagram use, the study also researched the effects of "fitspiration" Instagram pages on young women's body image. “Fitspiration” pages aim to motivate the viewer through images of healthy eating and exercising. Although these pages aim to be a positive way to promote a healthy lifestyle, they are also appearance-based and contain images of toned and skinny women. According to the study, there is a positive correlation to young women’s viewing "fitspiration" pages and a negative body image.


I would like to make a query about when a fitness _anything_ has ever _not_ been appearance-based, and _how_ a fitness anything could be not appearance-based, and _why_ a fitness anything should not be appearance based.



> Feminine beauty ideals have shown correlations to many psychological disorders, including lowered self-esteem and eating disorders. Western cultural standards of beauty and attractiveness promote unhealthy and unattainable body ideals that motivate women to seek perfection.


Apparently, Western cultural beauty standards basically cause a wide range of psychological problems in women, including lowered self-esteem and eating disorders.

Because Western cultural beauty standards are too unattainable and "perfect", and therefore unhealthy.

This article talking point is basically repeated here:



> There is significant pressure for girls to conform to feminine beauty ideals, and, since thinness is prized as feminine, many women feel dissatisfied with their body shape. Body dissatisfaction has been found to be a precursor to serious psychological problems such as depression, social anxiety, and eating disorders.



Oh and uh...


> One aspect of the feminine beauty ideal includes having a thin waist, which is causing women to participate in these alarming behaviors. When trying to achieve these impossible standards, these dangerous practices are put into place.


Apparently, having a thin waist is an "impossible standard".

So what do you guys think? Is any part of this article true or accurate in your opinion?


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## Marco Fucko (Jun 14, 2019)

This feels played out. Are women seriously still bitching about Barbie and bulimic models?


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## JULAY (Jun 14, 2019)

"Perceived social pressure to get laid can have psychological effects that turn some males into incels, such as depression, low self-esteem, and extreme misogyny starting from an adolescent age and continuing into adulthood."

See, when you put it that way, it becomes pretty obvious what a re.tarded proposition this is...


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## r00 (Jun 14, 2019)

What do they actually want everyone to do about these unrealistic beauty standards? Are we supposed to start ignoring the pretty girls and lying to the unattractive ones about how nice they are to look at?

This doesnt go down well with most women, but beauty standards are perpetuated mostly by other women.
If women en masse just stopped caring so much about clothing, waxing and dieting, im pretty sure it wouldnt be long before most men just rolled with it and carried on as usual.
Have some of you ladies seen the state of yourselves first thing in the morning? Its not a well kept secret that you wear spanks and your eyelashes arent really that thick.

If you are jealous of the other girls because you have a wonky face and they dont, then get over yourself and dont make that the rest of the worlds problem. Youll still be unpleasant to look at compared to others, even if nobody says it directly to your asymmetrical face.


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## RadicalCentrist (Jun 14, 2019)

The "feminine beauty ideal" is perpetuated by women, for women, with a little help from capitalism.

Or that's what I would say twenty years ago, before lol-cial media.  If you degrade your life down to the most superficial characteristics for likes, is it really anyone's fault but your own?


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## RetardedCat (Jun 14, 2019)

Women are harmful to women. I've seen dudes willing to bang the ugliest fucking hoes for no apparent reason other than they were their types. 
But I've seen women willing to fucking destroy another woman's life just because she wore a better dress at that one party.

I'm pretty sure women are responsible for their own beauty standards, so they're bitching about themselves, as usual.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Jun 14, 2019)

Is the masculine usefulness and productivity ideal genuinely harmful in some sense to men?


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## WW 635 (Jun 14, 2019)

This is something that only ugly women complain about


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## Dutch Courage (Jun 14, 2019)

I'm tired about hearing about the toxic "Western" ideals of beauty, "Western" patriarchal hierarchies, "Western" lack of diversity, and "Western" cultural insensitivity.  People have way too much time on their hands if all they can do is wail about things that won't change and don't need to change.

Have _any_ of these loathers of all things Western ever traveled to Asia, or anywhere in the "Eastern" world?  Guess what exists there?  Far more stringent ideas of what constitutes beauty (fat Americans are _very_ low on the list), 'patriarchal' (this is a stupid term, but I have to use it) hierarchies that predate America by about 6000 years and are _far_ more ingrained, and cultural insensitivity that includes oppression, discrimination, and even slavery from time to time.  Japan and Korea are also very homogeneous, and actively discourage immigration.  They frown on diversity.

If you are an angry, ugly fat chick, railing against the West will do you no good.  When was the last time you saw an ugly fat chick on the cover of a Japanese or Chinese or Korean magazine?  How about _never_?

Frankly, the West has some of the _lowest_ beauty standards in the world.  Fat chicks with neck tattoos are called beautiful by some people here.  Not in Asia.

The same goes for hierarchies and cultural sensitivity.  I shit you not, you can even buy Li'l Black Sambo knockoff t-shirts in Japan; women think they are "cute".  Women are invisible in upper management and rare in parliaments.  Grown women are encouraged to look like schoolgirls.  Yet, you hear very few complaints about standards of beauty, hierarchies, diversity, and cultural insensitivity there, even privately.  Most Asians accept society for what it is, and live perfectly well-adjusted lives. 

Can't stand living in oppressive Western society?  Try living in Asia.  If you aren't concerned with standards of beauty pressures, hierarchies, diversity, and cultural insensitivity, they are very hospitable and nice places to live.  If that stuff bothers you, then I really don't know where you can go.  Maybe stop obsessing on your looks and instead work on being an attractive person who isn't always bitching about stupid stuff?


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## Clop (Jun 14, 2019)

> _The Dove Beauty and Confidence Report_ interviewed 10,500 females across thirteen countries and found that women's confidence in their body image is steadily declining - regardless of age or geographic location. Despite these findings, there is a strong desire to fight existing beauty ideals. In fact, 71% of women and 67% of girls want the media to do a better job of portraying different types of women.


This is the key, here's where the cheese is. Obesity is rising along with female entitlement to get better things without less effort, privileges without responsibilities, like it always has. Every woman wants to be beautiful without doing the work to get there.

I'm wagering that the ~30% of women and girls are either very attractive and get a lot of attention that makes the others fucking fume, or are just genuinely smart and think cosmetics advertisement is a fucking stupid way to judge your own self-worth in the eyes of other people.


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## Ashenthorn (Jun 14, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> Slenderness and weight loss are "glorified" by the unrealistic beauty standards the media puts on women.


It's like they ignore all THICC, PAWG and asstastic IGs that are hugely the trend these days.
THICC is woke, anorexia is broke right now (thankfully).


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 14, 2019)

Assuming feminists are on the right trail (they never are) here, beauty standards would only be as "harmful" as one lets them be.  Not that someone doing the equivalent of stabbing themselves and crying bloody murder about how horrible knives are would surprise me anyway, particularly coming from these types of people.

I'm sure the feminists would tell you that there's a gun to the head of every woman forcing her to pay mind to these standards, because learned helplessness and affectations of perpetual victimhood have been their bread and butter for a while now.


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## RG 448 (Jun 14, 2019)

It’s absolutely harmful and it’s not confined to just one gender either.  Conventionally attractive men in good shape can cause extreme psychological distress to those less fortunate.  The guilt I feel for my borderline-excessive contribution to that problem keeps me up at night.


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## Malagor the dank omen (Jun 14, 2019)

RetardedCat said:


> Women are harmful to women. I've seen dudes willing to bang the ugliest fucking hoes for no apparent reason other than they were their types.
> But I've seen women willing to fucking destroy another woman's life just because she wore a better dress at that one party.
> 
> I'm pretty sure women are responsible for their own beauty standards, so they're bitching about themselves, as usual.


Damn true. It was a female friend of mine that told me something very important: It's very hard for a man to be misogynistic because i no one hates women more than other women. Men are willing to give sub par chicks a go if they are an easy go or because some strange fixation they might have, and even with that it's ok.

Aside from that, is the beauty standard harmful to women? No. There will always be men that like women "outside the norm". Fatties, tomboys, skinny chicks... It doesn't matter how you are, you will always have a audience that will like you by your physique. And beyond that, someone that will love who you are. Thing is as someone else pointed out, obesity is on the rise and also with the prevalence of social media and e-thots would make some women feel left out of the sweet male attention and therefore generating self steem issues as women percieved as "more attractive" are hogging all the compliments.

I would say social media is far more harmful than beauty standards.


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## RG 448 (Jun 14, 2019)

Malagor the dank omen said:


> It's very hard for a man to be misogynistic


Really?  I’ve never had trouble doing it.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 14, 2019)

Malagor the dank omen said:


> I would say social media is far more harmful than beauty standards.



It's a lot more difficult to use social media's existence as a cudgel against others, especially when women clearly adore it to the extent they do.  Much easier and more expeditious to rally them behind a cause of "Fuck your oppressive standards".


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## Sexy Senior Citizen (Jun 14, 2019)

Beauty is relative. In Africa, for example, the fatter a woman is, the more attractive she is considered (because being fat means you eat more, and if you eat more you must be hella rich). This leads to families fattening up their daughters to make them more attractive to prospective husbands. Similar attitudes prevailed in Tudor-era Europe as well.
Or, y'know, we can go the Muslim route and cover up women head to toe. All women will look the fucking same then.


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## Diesel Boogaloo (Jun 14, 2019)

Marco Fucko said:


> This feels played out. Are women seriously still bitching about Barbie and bulimic models?


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## ConfederateIrishman (Jun 14, 2019)

I think American Women have just gotten fat tbh; Though American Men have also gotten more fat so I guess it evens out


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## Surf and TERF (Jun 14, 2019)

It’s a bit short sighted to talk about this like it’s a war of the sexes. Both sides have bought into it, that’s all that needs
to be said.  Societies tend to value a woman solely for her reproductive value, just as men are valued for their ability to provide. 

Reproductive value is expressed by achieving whatever beauty standard the community holds. When the word objectification is used, it’s referring to the importance we place on these standards and how it encourages people as a whole to see women as something to be looked at and to make babies. As a consequence, any other part of their existence (career, personality, ideas) is never noticed or given credit. 

Of course there’s an unhealthy pressure. We wouldn’t have things like eating disorders or labia reductions if there wasn’t. It wouldn’t take an extra 40 minutes for a women to get  ready to go outside in the morning.

Sure, SJWs contaminate this topic and stop people from wanting to think about it, but it’s not a conspiracy. The issue doesn’t stop
being an issue just because some exceptional individuals touched it.


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## Noya (Jun 14, 2019)

I think the people who get affected and perpetuate the "beauty standards" the most are the people who are already pretty, but are constantly fixated on specific body parts that they perceive to have flaws. "My nose is too big", "my lips are too thin", even though they look perfectly fine with the rest of their face, and might not even be ugly by themselves at all. Ugly or average people at least, in my experience, tend to stop caring as they get older because they've already come to terms with being mediocre-looking and are okay with it.


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## NehrimAtFucksGiven (Jun 14, 2019)

Who gives a shit GYOW


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## Vorhtbame (Jun 14, 2019)

My main annoyance with this "beauty ideal" thing is that we blame heterosexual men for the popularity of fashion models with genuinely unhealthy bodies--but forget that the gatekeepers of the fashion world are very often homosexual men and women.  You may say nobody hates women like other women, but it's only true in that gay men hate us in their own special way.

What I'm saying is, go ahead and blame men for women feeling inadequate, but make sure you blame the _right_ men.  I have yet to meet a heterosexual man who complains because he can't find a size-0 supermodel.  (And guys who complain about it online don't count, because they're faggots whether they're gay or not.)


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## Safir (Jun 14, 2019)

RadicalCentrist said:


> The "feminine beauty ideal" is perpetuated by women, for women, with a little help from capitalism.


The "feminine beauty ideal" I find harmful is perpetuated by capitalism. Ads and woketard SEO spam portray all women as shallow cunts only concerned with their own perceived market value as a sex object (at any size, at a fixed size, whatever). "Don't worry, you're fuckable, and it's all that matters" is exactly as demeaning as "kill yourself, you're unfuckable, and it's all that matters".


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## autist_vibes (Jun 14, 2019)

If people really took seriously beauty ideals (both for women and men) 99% of human population would be single and childless.


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## V0dka (Jun 14, 2019)

Iwasamwillbe said:


> From Wikipedia, making it pretty much an authentic summary of the modern feminist beliefs about this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So why is it guys aren't feeling the same level of pressure?  Ripped guys are everywhere.


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## Marissa Moira (Jun 14, 2019)

Feminists feel weak because they are weak, start lifting embrace the bloat.


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## Ahffline (Jun 14, 2019)

There are unrealistic beauty standards for both males and females, though I'd argue the female beauty standards have been historically more harmful when you look at shit like footbinding, or wearing corsets so tight they prevent women from breathing properly. It's not a female-only issue, though. Young men can feel pressure because they don't look like an MCU actor or a pro athlete, which can lead to psychological harm and eating disorders, etc.

We'll never get rid of societal beauty ideals. We've always had them. I'm sure cavemen had them, too. But what we can do is raise our kids to realize that in the age of digital enhancement, etc., a picture is worthless. Encouraging kids to develop interests beyond STEM helps, too. Look at the rock bands of the 60s and 70s. Most of those guys wouldn't have gotten laid based on looks alone, lol.


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## Burn Book (Jun 14, 2019)

Call me a tumblr person, but I think some things actually are harmful. I work in fashion and it's crazy how unrealistic the images of women in the media are. Everybody knows that photos are edited to death, but they still influence people's perception of reality, and it only got worse with Instagram and influencers.  A client once threw a fit, because he saw raw photos and the model had "terrible skin", i.e. visible pores. People really believe the 100% smooth, airbrushed skin is achievable in real life. I can't even imagine what dermatologists must be dealing with.


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## Otterly (Jun 14, 2019)

Yes and no. Stuff like corsets, and wherever it is where they torture young girls into getting fat before marriage ( Mauritania?) are clearly very bad things. Men thinking that unless they look like Thor no one will shag them - not great. But surely people know that film stars, that’s literally their job, to look ripped.

I can’t say I’ve ever cried myself to sleep for not looking like a kardashian - the current look isn’t much to my taste. Actually come to think of it we could probably do with more pressure for girls not to draw their fucking eyebrows on with magic marker...


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 14, 2019)

OfflineCyberBully said:


> wearing corsets so tight they prevent women from breathing properly



It was actually quite common for men to protest women wearing corsets, thinking they caused health problems (including the less scientific "hysteria", but also some reasonable ones).


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## Deckyleaf (Jun 14, 2019)

Beauty ideals are just that; ideals. They're meant to be unrealistic and hard to obtain. Those who do obtain them are the wheat separated from the chaff, so to speak. They will always exist, as both sexes are hypergamous and searching for the "best mate". Humans are resource grabbers and want to get the best deal, both in life and in love. When given the chance between an attractive lover and a mediocre looking one (when both of whom have decent personalities), 99% of people will choose the better looking one. It's normal and natural.

Obviously, obsession with obtaining these ideals can reach pathological levels. That's nobody's fault except that of the individual. In the Western world nobody is truly forced to adhere to beauty norms; if they were, than one third of Americans wouldn't be obese. Interest in beauty and fashion is freely engaged in (and often run by) women. Women will always be naturally more looks obsessed (generally) than men as beautiful women possess so much sexual and social power. Handsome men do too, but they aren't as common as truly beautiful women. This is addition to the mating preferences of both sexes; looks are a bit more important for women when it comes to finding love, as a man's ugliness can be offset by wealth. A woman's ugliness can not be offset so easily.


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## Damn Near (Jun 14, 2019)

Do women experience physical pain if they don't complain constantly? I've never gotten a straight answer from them about that


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## MAPK phosphatase (Jun 14, 2019)

I see this fall into two categories.
1. Sub 8 women complaining that the 8+ women get all the 8+ men. They want to tear down the whole system so that _they_ can get those men. They don't want a 6 that does HVAC maintenance. They want a 9 or a 10 that makes 700k+ a year. But those men are out getting traditionally beautiful women.
2. The stuff that @Burn Book and @Otterly talked about, impossible standards that promote harmful behaviors. Not the fake impossible standards like weighing less than 300 pounds, actually impossible standards like not having pores.

Most (90% or more) of heterosexual and bi men just want peen in vageen with someone who's 3+ and not crazy. Hell, if you're hot enough you can be crazy too. The remaining 10% fall into the category of people that will fuck a 1 and 2, and the men that can get any women they want so they marry a supermodel.


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## PoisonedBun (Jun 14, 2019)

V0dka said:


> So why is it guys aren't feeling the same level of pressure?  Ripped guys are everywhere.
> 
> View attachment 800248
> 
> View attachment 800249



Aren't they, though? At least some of them, I feel like incel communities who believe women only want ripped Chris Hemsworth tier chads have certainly fallen victim to it. The issue isn't as one sided as it appears.


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## Becky's Cock n Balls (Jun 14, 2019)

Damn Near said:


> Do women experience physical pain if they don't complain constantly? I've never gotten a straight answer from them about that


We feel it while we're complaining too, we would just like for you to join us in the pain.


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## Damn Near (Jun 14, 2019)

Becky's Cock n Balls said:


> We feel it while we're complaining too, we would just like for you to join us in the pain.


Thank you for your candor, that's all I wanted


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## mindlessobserver (Jun 14, 2019)

Beauty is to a certain extent a culturally constructed thing. What some societies find beautiful others would fine hideous. Like China's "lotus feet", or those whackadoo Africans who stretch their necks up with metal rings. Feminists as usual ask the wrong question because everything they do is working backwards from the held belief that men are bad, western men in particular.

Its not "why does western culture have beauty standards", it is "Why does the human species have beauty standards?" and the answer to this is that men much like women want healthy offspring. And in order for reproduction to be successful there needs to be a belief that the woman is capable of giving birth to a healthy child, and then also take care of it afterwords. Men sexually signal through wealth as proof of their ability to provide. Expensive cars, clothing, property, etc.  Women sexually signal through the health of their bodies. General physical charachteristics being desired, and then coupled with basic grooming that shows she takes care of it. A woman who takes care of her body will also take care of a babies body. This is also why Women often let themselves go after having kids. The goal has been achieved.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 14, 2019)

Becky's Cock n Balls said:


> We feel it while we're complaining too, we would just like for you to join us in the pain.


Ask a woman to share food, loud hissing and growling sounds ensue.

But they'll sure share pain.


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## Underestimated Nutria (Jun 14, 2019)

Weird that with all this pressure on women to look good, the makeup, clothes etc, they still look like absolute shit compared to a showered male of the same age. (sorry for the Hurtful Truth Level)


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## Sīn the Moon Daddy (Jun 14, 2019)

Yes, but it's women doing it to women. I don't buy those magazines and neither do any straight men that I have seen or heard of. In fact the fashion and beauty industry are a fucking nightmare for straight men.

It's all pressure that women put on themselves when I personally would be just as happy to have someone who washes my dishes as long as I can see her every day.


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## Slappy McGherkin (Jun 14, 2019)

mindlessobserver said:


> Beauty is to a certain extent a culturally constructed thing. What some societies find beautiful others would fine hideous. Like China's "lotus feet", or those whackadoo Africans who stretch their necks up with metal rings. Feminists as usual ask the wrong question because everything they do is working backwards from the held belief that men are bad, western men in particular.
> 
> Its not "why does western culture have beauty standards", it is "Why does the human species have beauty standards?" and the answer to this is that men much like women want healthy offspring. And in order for reproduction to be successful there needs to be a belief that the woman is capable of giving birth to a healthy child, and then also take care of it afterwords. Men sexually signal through wealth as proof of their ability to provide. Expensive cars, clothing, property, etc.  Women sexually signal through the health of their bodies. General physical characteristics being desired, and then coupled with basic grooming that shows she takes care of it. A woman who takes care of her body will also take care of a babies body. This is also why Women often let themselves go after having kids. The goal has been achieved.



Agreed. Beauty is also a construct that's a moving target, changing with both culture and time. Hence, you hear the term "timeless beauty" applied to the likes of Marilyn Monroe, who would be considered beautiful by most any generation. But a quick glance at history shows us that "cherub" was beauty for many centuries before we got to the Size Zero waifs of today being considered beauty -- genuinely a media/fashion industry construct driven by the likes of Twiggy, Kate Moss and the morbid "heroin chic" look super models. For most normal women, an impossible ideal to achieve. It's interesting to see the direction changing a bit with more realistic plus size women now being featured in Sports Illustrated, TV ads, etc. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Now, I DO have limits (never want to see Hamberlynn in  a bikini -- wretch!)

If I were to pin one female today as being "wholesomely" beautiful, it would likely be Kate Upton. Very fit, attractive, and well-rounded. She's a lot closer to achievable as a body image than Barbie. 

Marilyn:


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 14, 2019)

Slappy McGherkin said:


> Agreed. Beauty is also a construct that's a moving target, changing with both culture and time. Hence, you hear the term "timeless beauty" applied to the likes of Marilyn Monroe, who would be considered beautiful by most any generation. But a quick glance at history shows us that "cherub" was beauty for many centuries before we got to the Size Zero waifs of today being considered beauty -- genuinely a media/fashion industry construct driven by the likes of Twiggy, Kate Moss and the morbid "heroin chic" look super models. For most normal women, an impossible ideal to achieve. It's interesting to see the direction changing a bit with more realistic plus size women now being featured in Sports Illustrated, TV ads, etc. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Now, I DO have limits (never want to see Hamberlynn in  a bikini -- wretch!)
> 
> If I were to pin one female today as being "wholesomely" beautiful, it would likely be Kate Upton. Very fit, attractive, and well-rounded. She's a lot closer to achievable as a body image than Barbie.
> 
> Marilyn:


If you really want to see that disparity between standards then and now, use Mae West.  I'm sure if you could find someone who had no idea who she was and get them to rate her based on a pic she'd score middling, even though she was considered an absolute sexpot in her day (though that might have had something to do with her demeanor, really)


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 14, 2019)

Yeah, to the fat and ugly ones, and who cares what they think?


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## Woke Blue Muttlema (Jun 14, 2019)

An ideal is an ideal. It is not supposed to be realistic and although in this very case is undeniable that it has caused issues its no like people give an actual fuck today outside of thots. Honestly attaching this new "feel good for being you" attitude to companies feels as manipulative as the past behaviour both because it appropiates the notion for comercial porpouses and assumes we as a society and gender have not figure it out for ourselves. 
The doublespeak on Wikipedia is unbearable tho.


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## Wraith (Jun 14, 2019)

Isn't the female complaints about all this boiled down to: "HOW DARE YOU HAVE PREFERENCES AND EXPECTATIONS OF ME! RRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"
Then she has preferences and expectations of you. Uh hurr, uh reeeee and stuff.


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## Equivocal_Iki (Jun 14, 2019)

ConfederateIrishman said:


> I think American Women have just gotten fat tbh; Though American Men have also gotten more fat so I guess it evens out


It's this. Just imagine if the average BMI went down 5 points. It's not like everyone just became an unfuckable butterface.


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## V0dka (Jun 14, 2019)

Cho Chan said:


> Aren't they, though? At least some of them, I feel like incel communities who believe women only want ripped Chris Hemsworth tier chads have certainly fallen victim to it. The issue isn't as one sided as it appears.



That's why I said to the same level.  Incels are a minute portion of Men.  But complaining about the beauty ideal of Women seems to be an active industry.  I've seen girls say they hate their bodies or face or whatever, and they have body types that would literally get them on the cover of a nude magazine.  Sure the magazine might cater to a certain type big boobs/big butts/petite etc... That's like the equivalent of a ripped gym guy saying he hates his body and will never be on the cover of Men's Health.


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## TerribleIdeas™ (Jun 14, 2019)

The only answer for whatever faggotry is going on in this thread.


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## Slappy McGherkin (Jun 14, 2019)

Meh. Titties meh twerkin ass. The bitch that can get outta bed after slappin' her with Slappy and say "What chu want on yer sammich?" is marriage material.


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## Krokodil Overdose (Jun 15, 2019)

Anything worth doing that requires effort is "potentially harmful" in this sense. Look at our numerous threads on the exceptional individuals who opt out of the gene pool by attempting to summit Everest (for nothing more than the rough equivalent of an IRL Steam cheevo,) the ways that trooning out ravages the body, aspiring gym rats who don't know what the fuck they're doing... the list is basically endless. Does the fact that some people will get the wrong idea, go off half-cocked, try and fail, or try to take shortcuts and suffer for the attempt mean that these things are somehow inherently bad?

My take? Fuck that.


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## Old Wizard (Jun 15, 2019)

I have mixed feelings about this.

For one thing, I think a lot of the harmful things girls do to themselves are because of societal pressure from other girls as well as indoctrination from older women they look up to.  And by "harmful" I don't mean "caustic or immediately damaging".  I would say makeup is harmful.  It's expensive, time-consuming, limiting (can't sweat too much/rub your eyes/eat "vigorously" in many cases), bad for your skin, and I've seen more than one girl cry when she had to be seen without it due to insecurity.  You can also be punished socially for not conforming to this ideal.  I feel like if women really did it out of creativity, they would use more bright colors and "odd" shapes instead of the same nude look every day, y'know?



 vs 

 vs 



I've never met a man who said yeah, I like women who wear tons of makeup.  Which leads me to believe it's something women do for other women, same with a lot of fashion.  If women dressed for men, they would walk around naked.  I would say the amount of clothes worn can be done "for men", but when it comes to style it's probably for other women.

Time for some personal opinions.

Good beauty standards:

Healthy, plump, hydrated skin.
Healthy hair.  Not oily, not crisp/dry.  Strong hair, y'know?
Healthy weight, healthy amount of muscle
Hygienic.  You can be as hairy or as sweaty as you'd like, as long as you bathe appropriately.
The rest is subjective.  If you like girls with short hair, whatever.  If you only like tall girls, whatever.  Health should be the standard, and usually is.


Bad beauty standards:


 



I shouldn't feel anxiety when I see you move to put your face down on my white couch.

Another thing I wonder about is how/why beauty standards change so quickly for women and typically don't for men.  Having body hair has recently become not only seen as out of vogue, but as unhygienic and taboo to a point where they don't even show it on hair removal advertisements.  *As long as you wash regularly, ALL of your body hair, including the most unsanitary form of body hair- men's facial hair- is totally fine.  *I always thought hairlessness was weird and childish and something I could never get in to.  If you have a kid that's hit puberty, it's weird to tell them that they need to spend time making their body look like it did before they hit puberty.

I also think that a lot of media's portrayal of cosmetic surgery is misleading.  Plastics originated so that women who were burned alive due to the beauty standard of their time could go out in public without looking like "monsters"- otherwise they would be kept in the basement for the rest of their lives.  Now it's telling young girls that their noses are ugly, but don't worry, there's a "minimally invasive" surgery we could do, do it because you love yourself!  It's a load of bullshit.  If you truly love your body, you don't change it.  If it doesn't change functionality, it's vanity.

Final thoughts:  I like that skincare is becoming a big thing now.  Especially sunscreen.  And Americans have a weird relationship with covering up their bodies, which I think is less ____* and more shame-based.  *And most importantly, no matter how ugly you are, there will always be someone who is able to love you.  Beauty is subjective in the weirdest way.  *So if you saw the title of this thread thinking "I'm genuinely freaking out about whether I can conform to the beauty standards of the society I live in", irregardless of your sex, *there will always be a person just as ugly as you who will date you.  *And yes, societal standards do cause extreme stress and anxiety.  The only difference between beauty standards and intellectual standards is that beauty standards are typically trivial and subjective and often useless, while the expectation to be smart/get a good education actually benefits you.

Sorry for the spiel, interesting question OP. 

* I mean the word for when you cover yourself up due to Good Christian Values.  Like being chaste, but that's not the word. Engrish speakers help me pls


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## JektheDumbass (Jun 15, 2019)

It's not reasonable to expect all men to be over six foot and make $250k a year either.  Get over it.


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## V0dka (Jun 15, 2019)

Old Wizard said:


> I've never met a man who said yeah, I like women who wear tons of makeup. Which leads me to believe it's something women do for other women, same with a lot of fashion. If women dressed for men, they would walk around naked. I would say the amount of clothes worn can be done "for men", but when it comes to style it's probably for other women.



Makeup and fashion isn't for Men, we know that because Men either don't give a shit, or don't even know what brand of shit the girl is wearing.  "OMG shes wearing Gucci? WTF is that?"  Girls lose their shit and chew each other out over makeup faux pas, if guys saw a girl with smudged makeup they would assume she meant it to look like that.  





None of anything in "Womens beauty standards" has anything to do with Men in the slightest.   Otherwise porn stars would be fashion models.  It's completely Women enforcing a pecking order on other women


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## adorable bitch (Jun 15, 2019)

Would be nice if we had better, more meaningful role models put on a pedestal. At least if a guy looks up to a body-builder, they might be inspired to work-out. I think as a whole, regardless of gender, we need to stop glorifying the fuck out of celebrities.


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## kadoink (Jun 15, 2019)

Current year beauty standard for women as told  by Tumblr.


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## Otterly (Jun 15, 2019)

mindlessobserver said:


> those whackadoo Africans who stretch their necks up with metal rings.



That is definitely harmful. It’s actually the collarbones being pressed down rather than the neck stretching, but after a while removal of the rings can only be done for a short while. Grim 



Old Wizard said:


> Another thing I wonder about is how/why beauty standards change so quickly for women



Now that is an interesting question and one I hadn’t thought of before. 

I guess beauty standards nowadays are closely tied to consumer culture. It’s less ‘this woman is stunning/this man is a hunky warrior’ and more ‘hate yourself? Jolly good, now if you just buy this product, you’ll feel better.’ 

Which is why athletes aren’t the standard society says to aim for - it’s attainable via hard work. Better to have to buy makeup/clothes/surgery, and to keep oneself in a state of self loathing and fill the gap with products.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 15, 2019)

The feminine beauty ideal? Maybe we can also talk about the multi-racial and sexual ideal? I find it completely unrealistic and impossible to build an extended family that is as multi-racial and of all LGBTQ letters as I see in families portrayed in media. I rescued a chinese girl from being droven over by a bus, but she still wouldn't marry my sister, denying me the asian lesbian on my diversity bingo. And my brother's muslim girlfriend was taken back by her family who wanted her to marry a muslim.

It's so much harder to build a truly diverse family than what is depicted in media. I am considering becoming a transgender voodoo pracitioner to get a little closer, but I can't decide which of the 51 genders I want to transition to.


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## Sīn the Moon Daddy (Jun 16, 2019)

Otterly said:


> That is definitely harmful. It’s actually the collarbones being pressed down rather than the neck stretching, but after a while removal of the rings can only be done for a short while. Grim
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This^^^^^
So much


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## TP 200 (Jun 16, 2019)

Otterly said:


> That is definitely harmful. It’s actually the collarbones being pressed down rather than the neck stretching, but after a while removal of the rings can only be done for a short while. Grim
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're 100% correct and the fact that women are easier to market any fucking thing to is substantial in this, too. Hit women in the feels with any product and it's flying off the shelves. With men, it's usually hitting us in the insecurities, but even then, a lot of men are comfortable with who they are, whether it be bald/fat/skinny/ugly/whatever, or they don't want to waste money on stupid shit. You have a greater chance of raking cash in with women (and children), which has been thoroughly studied on. Beauty standards for women is just the insecure following the insecure in terms of trends and it won't end, because the way it's portrayed is as celebratory and proud, when the true effects are abhorrent.


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## V0dka (Jun 16, 2019)

ThanksForPosting said:


> You're 100% correct and the fact that women are easier to market any fucking thing to is substantial in this, too. Hit women in the feels with any product and it's flying off the shelves. With men, it's usually hitting us in the insecurities, but even then, a lot of men are comfortable with who they are, whether it be bald/fat/skinny/ugly/whatever, or they don't want to waste money on stupid shit. You have a greater chance of raking cash in with women (and children), which has been thoroughly studied on. Beauty standards for women is just the insecure following the insecure in terms of trends and it won't end, because the way it's portrayed is as celebratory and proud, when the true effects are abhorrent.



With Men you hit them in the penis.  Either insecurity or porn.  That's their only marketing weakness.  Everything else, girls are more insecure about, or more receptive to.  Which explains why the market seems ever increasingly geared towards them.  Movies, Politics, Sports, Videogames, you see companies trying to make emotional appeals to Women.  In ads about almost anything who is the bumbling idiot? The husband.  They know who will buy the stuff, or the ones who hold the real financial power.


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## Ann Berlin (Jun 18, 2019)

Beauty standards are a marketing scheme directed at girls and women and perpetuated by competition between each other, bred by insecurity. I don't know if you can point fingers at anything specifically to blame for why females are desperate to master makeup or lose weight but you can't ignore all the money that goes into those industries as a result.


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## UQ 770 (Jun 18, 2019)

This question is somewhat recursive. Is a specific rigorous standard of beauty harmful? Well, in addition to the people who fall down the rabbit hole and begin seriously altering their lives in unhealthy way to try and reach or maintain that standard of beauty, you also have the opposite. People who come to the understand that they will never attain that standard and begin to structure their entire personality around hating it or rebelling against it. There's also harmful effects on the people who choose not to participate even if they harbor no particularly ill will towards those standards. Your mentality and your reasons are constantly questioned when the topic is brought up, and in general it contributes to a surreal atmosphere where people become hostile just because you happen not to give enough of a shit to pick a side. 

So I'd argue, yes, high beauty and even ettiquette standards are harmful. They are gigantic timesinks that contribute to neurotic behavior, and for anyone on the outside looking in they are exhausting to tolerate when everyone around you is either obessing over their appearance or bitching and moaning endlessly about how oppressed they are by other people's unrealistic standards. I feel the same about topics like political correctness and what it constitutes to be polite in society. You're constantly grabbed and yanked all over the place between two groups of annoying people who either can't shut up about how offended they are or can't shut up about how oppressed they are because they can't offend someone. I'm pretty sure this is a root cause of misanthropy in the modern world.


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## Marvin (Jun 18, 2019)

Old Wizard said:


> * I mean the word for when you cover yourself up due to Good Christian Values. Like being chaste, but that's not the word. Engrish speakers help me pls


Modesty.


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## nonvir_1984 (Jun 19, 2019)

From my observations, the "feminine beauty ideal" is harmful to women. to those who don't feel they attain it, they can feel inadequate; and to those who  do or think they do, it tends to make the arrogant and conceited. Not all, but many.
The ideal put out there by women - they tend but not always - to dress for each other - and to a lesser extent for men. So, the culprits in my experience are not solely from one gender or the other.
I would also say that there is a masculine ideal too, and it is as harmful to boys and men. Again, no one gender is to blame. But its hurtful.
Both these ideals are toxic and cause so much pain. And people prey on them, not only in person but in things like advertising. I think from personal experiences, that shyness is to some extent driven by a lack of confidence in attaining an ideal - and fear of being judged.
Most important thing is to help your family and friends feel good about themselves. It more difficult these days to pay a complement to people you know, as a type of civility and courtesy, as you run the risk it will be interpreted as stalking or whatever. But those compliments when non creepy and sincere did much for a person's confidence.


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