# Can UBI Eliminate Poverty?



## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

I've been looking into the universal basic income idea for a while now, but only recently but effort into researching it. I'm making this thread to get some feedback on what others think of the idea, and what you think in regards to my theory that it would fail spectacularly.
According to Wikipedia, 13.5% of Americans live under the poverty line. Rounding out to about 43,000,000 people. 
This is a lot of impoverished people for the richest nation in history. There are a variety of factors leading to this, from immigration, technological progress, offshoring jobs, etcetera. But we're trying to determine how to alleviate this with UBI, not the macroeconomic factors driving it.
According to Presidential hopeful Andrew Yang, he wants to give each citizen in the USA $1,000 per month, or $12,000 per year. His website explaining the idea states this:


> "Andrew would implement a Universal Basic Income, ‘the Freedom Dividend,’ of $1,000/month, $12,000 a year for every American adult over the age of 18. This is independent of one’s work status or any other factor. This would enable all Americans to pay their bills, educate themselves, start businesses, be more creative, stay healthy, relocate for work, spend time with their children, take care of loved ones, and have a real stake in the future.
> 
> Any change to the Freedom Dividend would require a constitutional amendment.
> 
> ...


The Freedom Dividend, as he calls it, would fundamentally change how the United States as a nation functions. Say it passes. The total cost for this endeavor, if he truly means what he says, would cost the American taxpayer on a yearly basis over $3,948,647,844,000. Just shy of four trillion dollars. A staggering $329,053,987,000 per month.
You could argue that using the total population for the calculations is an unfair representation, since it is specified for people over 18, but this argument is flawed. The vast majority of people will live long enough to collect their monthly payment, combine this with overall population growth, and immigration on top, and the point is moot. Even so, the total yearly cost for everyone currently over 18 years old would be $3,770,780,824,000. The difference is relatively better at best.
To add some context to this, the total yearly budget for the USA federal Government, which according to Yang would be the provider of this welfare, is $4,746,000,000,000. The 'Freedom Dividend' would nearly double the USA federal budget. Eclipsing military spending by four times the amount. For those with knowledge of economics, you know that this would be absolutely devastating. Even those with barely any knowledge in economics can easily see how this can fail miserably almost instantaneously.
But let's say we cut out Yang's idea and instead op for a middle of the road approach. Say we provide this only to Americans who are in poverty, and near poverty. The number I mentioned earlier being 13.5% of the country, or approximately 43,000,000 citizens. Doing the math, it seems it might actually be plausible. The total it would cost to provide UBI to the impoverished of America would be $516,000,000,000. Compared to the previous numbers, this seems much more realistic. But, there's a catch to this. This only helps people in poverty, not in near poverty. The total amount of people in near poverty, or right on the brink of falling into the impoverished category, is 100,000,000 people. Nearly a third of the American population. Again, these numbers are from the mentioned Wikipedia post at the top. Combine this with the other 43,000,000 and you see the issue. 
The total cost of providing 12,000 a year to the in poverty and near poverty people in America will cost right around $1,716,000,000,000. Increasing the US federal budget by almost 50%. Even accounting for budget cuts in other sectors of government, the damage would be irreparable.
Taxes will absolutely skyrocket. Both on the super rich and the common man. Given the habit of the rich to bail to third world nations with their offshore millions, the economy of the United States will very likely crash. Hard.
Small businesses and corporations alike would snap under the pressure and go out of business, causing unemployment to skyrocket and leaving only the richest companies to remain. Resulting in a mass of Monopolistic Enclaves controlling massive sections of the remaining economy. In conjunction with this, prices would also shoot up, possibly, even probably to a degree where the Universal Basic Income will need to increase _further_ to make it effective.
In most cases like this, the current government may panic, and begin to print more money to put into circulation to pay for this. Considering the people pushing for this idea, and the intelligence they've displayed, they likely won't know of the consequences to such rash inflation. The value of the US Dollar would plummet, further destroying the economy. Many companies would outright abandon the United States as a possible trade zone, leaving the USA in possibly the worst financial disaster in history. And just as the Great Depression rippled across the globe, strangely enough just shy of a hundred years ago, other economies could be so badly damaged by the fall of the American economy that they could crash as well. creating a Global Depression not seen, once again, in nearly a century.
What do you think? How are my numbers, my predictions? Do you agree, or did I get something wrong? Do you think some form of UBI could work? Can Yang make a system complex enough to handle such a massive boost in spending without neutering other sectors of the government and its responsibilities to its people?
I'm curious to see what people here think.


Spoiler: Sources












						Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				











						The Freedom Dividend - Yang2020 - Andrew Yang for President
					

Universal Basic Income, or UBI, is a version of Social Security where all citizens receive a set amount of money per month independent of their work status or income. Everyone from a hedge fund billionaire in New York to an impoverished single mom in West Virginia would receive a monthly…




					www.yang2020.com
				





			United States Population 2020 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)
		









						How Congress Really Spends Your Money
					

U.S. federal government spending for FY 2021 is $4.829 trillion. The most expensive programs are Social Security, Defense, and Medicare. How are you affected?




					www.thebalance.com


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## Eryngium (Jun 28, 2019)

Just kill all the homeless people, problem solved.


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## ProgKing of the North (Jun 28, 2019)

No, but it might eliminate MY poverty


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## Dante Alighieri (Jun 28, 2019)

Poverty is defined against median income, so no you can't get rid of "poverty". 

UBI has so many problems and makes so many shit assumptions and proponents are absolutely stupid about it.

Also remember that every UBI experiment has failed.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

i hope he wins cuz id never have to werk again nigga


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## RetardedCat (Jun 28, 2019)

No, get a job.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

You would have to raise taxes, there is no way around that but there are several massive cost cutting measures you could take to make the tax burden not as heavy.

Yang, for all his memery has actually stated a decent plan that would cut costs overnight and that is to release everyone in prison who is currently in the clink for a non violent cannabis offense. I'm sure that this would save a shit tonne of money - in fact if you decriminalized all drugs and replaced sending people to prison with rehabilitation like Portugal or Switzerland does it would make money in the long term.

Regarding military spending it would be wise to cut back on some of the more superfluous bases, perhaps stop sabre rattling with Iran and Russia? I'm sure that you could cut the US military spending by 10% at the very least, it's a shame that zoomers childrens children are going to be paying off the Iraq and Afghanistan wars but what is done is done.

For healthcare, you need to cut out the insurance companies and make it more accessible to curb last minute visits to emergency. I'm not an American but I'm pretty sure that the insurance companies suck up a huge amount of money which massively drive up the costs of healthcare. Money wasted to enrich insurance company executives which could be used elsewhere - but again, I feel not so strongly about this just because I'm not an Amerilard and am a brainlet in general.

There are other things that I think could be done to close up the tax burden like preventing walmart from paying employees so little that they're on food stamps, forcing the huge tech monopolies to pay taxes properly and capping the amount that student loans can be.


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## TerribleIdeas™ (Jun 28, 2019)

TL/DR - Venezuela, except in the US.



Spoiler: Memesplanation for lolz



If you aren't blackpilled enough to go all out and completely galaxy-brain, as described in the following meme...





then you're going to be dealing with this sorting process...


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## BoingoTango (Jun 28, 2019)

So many faggots begging for neetbux itt


Hey guys, let's elect the communist guy with a Chinese background as president. What could possibly go wrong?


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> and that is to release everyone in prison who is currently in the clink for a non violent cannabis offense


You do realize that given the nature of plea deals, many of those people were also charged with violent or serious offences but just agreed to take the soft time for the marijuana instead of the gun they were packing? 
Right?


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## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> You would have to raise taxes, there is no way around that but there are several massive cost cutting measures you could take to make the tax burden not as heavy.
> 
> Yang, for all his memery has actually stated a decent plan that would cut costs overnight and that is to release everyone in prison who is currently in the clink for a non violent cannabis offense. I'm sure that this would save a shit tonne of money - in fact if you decriminalized all drugs and replaced sending people to prison with rehabilitation like Portugal or Switzerland does it would make money in the long term.
> 
> ...


Can you link this plan to cut costs? Would it be enough to alleviate a near double cost in spending?


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> Can you link this plan to cut costs? Would it be enough to alleviate a near double cost in spending?


lmao nigga. giving peopel free prez never fails. jus look at all the time sit seceded.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Exigent Circumcisions said:


> You do realize that given the nature of plea deals, many of those people were also charged with violent or serious offences but just agreed to take the soft time for the marijuana instead of the gun they were packing?
> Right?



Please don't begin sentences with "You do realize" it makes me want to Etika myself.

I am aware that not everyone incarcerated for cannabis offences are good people. However, many of those people could be taxpaying members of society.

Also, the US prison system is an outlier compared to the rest of the world. 






						Highest to Lowest - Prison Population Total | World Prison Brief
					






					www.prisonstudies.org
				




Here is the total prison population by country. I'm not well read enough to know many of the specifics but there are definitely savings to be made, surely the US couldn't have that many more criminals than other countries. It's got to be the system.


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Daily reminder that the UBI was originally proposed by a libertarian economist to cut back on paying government workers and eliminate government bureaucracy.  This is its biggest and basically only positive trait.


Simply Outplayed said:


> I'm not an Amerilard and am a brainlet in general.


Fuck off, non-American.

Also, your hot takes are all tarded.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> Can you link this plan to cut costs? Would it be enough to alleviate a near double cost in spending?



I heard it from various interviews he's done, I think some of them he said on his Joe Rogan Podcast. I do believe that regardless of whether you go with UBI many of his policies make sense for cost cutting.


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> Can you link this plan to cut costs? Would it be enough to alleviate a near double cost in spending?


Hahaha oh you sweet, summer child. Just read Marx! He explained all of it!


This UBI shit is absolutely retarded. Everybody who 'needs' it is already on welfare or SSI, the people who don't need it, well, that's obvious. Anybody unironically advocating for this is either 21 or younger, a NEET, or legitimately retarded. I think I remember Yang on the Joe Rogan podcast saying that he'd eliminate welfare; where are we going to put all of those useless bureaucrats if he did that? These people aren't suited for any other job.

It's just a huge nope all around.



Simply Outplayed said:


> Please don't begin sentences with "You do realize" it makes me want to Etika myself.


Oh, good.

You do realize I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, right?


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> Daily reminder that the UBI was originally proposed by a libertarian economist to cut back on paying government workers and eliminate government bureaucracy.  This is its biggest and basically only positive trait.
> 
> Fuck off, non-American.
> 
> Also, your hot takes are all tarded.




Stop being world hegemony and people will not care about your country and government. For instance, I have no opinions regarding how the Central African Republic taxes its citizens.


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Stop being world hegemony and people will not care about your country and government. For instance, I have no opinions regarding how the Central African Republic taxes its citizens.


The fuck are you talking about


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## Samoyed (Jun 28, 2019)

There will always be poverty. The ERA would be more likely to pass than mr. yang gang's 1000 neet bucks for every person in the USA.


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## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> I heard it from various interviews he's done, I think some of them he said on his Joe Rogan Podcast. I do believe that regardless of whether you go with UBI many of his policies make sense for cost cutting.


The cost cuts would have to be massive. Is there any specifics you can provide? A link or two maybe?
What country are you from? If you don't mind my asking.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> The cost cuts would have to be massive. Is there any specifics you can provide? A link or two maybe?
> What country are you from? If you don't mind my asking.



Okay so the reason I didn't want to link it is because I'm too lazy to wade through his policy page which has a tonne of shit.









						Our Policies - Yang2020 - Andrew Yang for President
					

Solution-driven policies for the opioid crisis, medicare for all, basic income, gun safety, legalizing marijuana, and more.




					www.yang2020.com
				




But since I'm already getting shat all over I might as well continue.

This article details talks about how he wants to legalise weed and then pardon non violent offenders: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...on-non-violent-offenders-420-2019-4?r=US&IR=T

He spoke about the policy on the Joe Rogan podcast episode he did. I agree with it because I think that the War on Drugs has imprisoned a lot of people who probably wouldn't be imprisoned in other countries. Removing that many people from paying taxes and turning them into tens of thousands of dollars that tax payers must pay every year must balloon expenditure.

Regarding his healthcare policies you can find a pretty undetailed thing on his website: https://www.yang2020.com/policies/medicare-for-all/



> With a shift to a Medicare for All system, costs can also be controlled directly by setting prices provided for medical services. The best approach is highlighted by the top-ranked Cleveland Clinic. There, doctors are paid a flat salary instead of by a price-for-service model. This shift has led to a hospital where costs are visible and under control.



Essentially setting the prices so that insurance companies can't make a paracetamol tablet cost $250 bucks would be a fantastic way to save money. It's not as if the money isn't there to pay for healthcare costs, it's just that a massive amount of the money is going to the insurance industry.

On education: https://www.yang2020.com/policies/controlling-cost-higher-education/

Basically what I said minus the loans part. I assume it would be regulation to reduce the costs of tuition but he doesn't really go into it much here. I think he went onto it more on the Joe Rogan podcast but I honestly can't remember.

oh and I'm from Australia.

I should add that while I don't think Yangs numbers realistically add up I do think that it's an interesting thought experiment and I really like his ideas of pushing lawmakers to think about unrigging the economy for millenials, increasing the tax base of the US and making it easier for people to increase their standard of life.

If I was American I would definitely feel like a lot of the tax money spent on the military is money that could be better spent improving infrastructure, given to NASA, spent defending net neutrality or literally anything else where actual US citizens could experience some benefit.


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## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Okay so the reason I didn't want to link it is because I'm too lazy to wade through his policy page which has a tonne of shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that we could cut costs in regards to prisons, and medical. I support quite a few things that Yang and others have proposed. I just don't see the cost cutting being effective _enough_ for his proposed UBI to work. Even for the reduced versions I calculated.
I'm ignorant in regards to how Austrailia handles prisons / welfare / healthcare. Is it universal like England, and how's the prison system work there?


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Okay so the reason I didn't want to link it is because I'm too lazy to wade through his policy page which has a tonne of shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dumb shit.


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## Tootsie Bear (Jun 28, 2019)

No, because big businesses and their government cronies won't support a bill like a that. And to be honest i do find it unrealistic, like wanting to end world hunger unfortunately you can't do that and so you have to continue fighting for a better life in my opinion.


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## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Stop being world hegemony and people will not care about your country and government. For instance, I have no opinions regarding how the Central African Republic taxes its citizens.


I don't quite get what you mean by this.


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> I don't quite get what you mean by this.


To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Aussies, cunt.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Aussies, cunt.


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 28, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Aussies, cunt.


I say this constantly but they don't even have lids on their barbecues. 

That's the level of titanic intellect you're dealing with; if it rains, you just panic like a toddler.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

Exigent Circumcisions said:


> I say this constantly but they don't even have lids on their barbecues.
> 
> That's the level of titanic intellect you're dealing with; if it rains, you just panic like a toddler.


let me get reel 4 a secnd w/ u, what if u papaBless the rain down in africa? how does that hurt ne1?


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## wellthathappened (Jun 28, 2019)

UBI will absolutely not eliminate poverty.

I do think a flat rate payment is better than the easily gamed welfare system we currently have. If one lives within their means, fine. If one exceeds their UBI, private charity would be a requirement.

This won't happen because too many "jobs" rely on the current welfare system.


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## Sīn the Moon Daddy (Jun 28, 2019)

Anyone in favor of UBI needs to understand something...

Not even Bernie supports it.


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Fun fact about Australia. Its obeisty rate is also quite high. So it's a bit rich for him to call us "Amerilards"


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> I agree that we could cut costs in regards to prisons, and medical. I support quite a few things that Yang and others have proposed. I just don't see the cost cutting being effective _enough_ for his proposed UBI to work. Even for the reduced versions I calculated.
> I'm ignorant in regards to how Austrailia handles prisons / welfare / healthcare. Is it universal like England, and how's the prison system work there?



I feel like I've got to preface everything with an admission of my own brainlet status because policy discussions get very in depth quickly!

It's also hard to do specific 1:1 comparisons with the USA because from what I've read it varies drastically state by state where in Australia I think the systems tend to be more uniform.

Regarding prisons I think there are a few factors that go into why our prison rate is significantly lower as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...rate#/media/File:Prisoners_world_map_png2.png

I'm honestly even unsure of where to start. There are two main factors which I think directly correlate to a higher standard of living for the economically disadvantaged in Australia.

The first factor is that Australian society is set up in a way to help alleviate entrenched inter-generational poverty. Welfare is not hard to obtain and is generally enough to scrape by until you find your feet, loans for education are easy to access and do not grow with interest, health care is "free" if you're prepared to wait or cheap compared to American standards if you want to be seen immediately. Compared to the US outside of some select industries wages tend to be on the higher side and the income inequality gap tends to be a lot less than it is in the US. I would say that having less people in poverty and keeping the people that are struggling afloat so that they don't do dumb shit out of desperation is something that helps Australia keep its prison population down.

The second factor is that the police in Australia and the US seem to operate differently. A big component to this I think is the prevalence of guns in the US makes cops inherently more brutal because they don't know who is strapped and has a warrant whenever they pull a car over for a routine check. However, disregarding that they still seem to operate in much shadier ways in terms of the use of excessive force, civil forfeiture and abuse of power. I do think that some politicians and people in the US see the police force as a way to settle many problems when they're clearly not the best tool for it, the police seem to be used to deal with problems like homelessness, drug addiction, mental health and in the case of many a thicc white woman "I saw a black person being black".


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> I don't quite get what you mean by this.



Essentially that the US is the only global superpower, everywhere in the world consumes American culture and is constantly bombarded by American citizens and American media about American issues. It's almost impossible not to be aware of what is going on in the USA. My point was that if the US stopped being so important to the world I wouldn't have opinions on it.


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Essentially that the US is the only global superpower, everywhere in the world consumes American culture and is constantly bombarded by American citizens and American media about American issues. It's almost impossible not to be aware of what is going on in the USA. My point was that if the US stopped being so important to the world I wouldn't have opinions on it.


Here's a surprise: you're still incredibly uninformed.


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## wellthathappened (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Essentially that the US is the only global superpower, everywhere in the world consumes American culture and is constantly bombarded by American citizens and American media about American issues. It's almost impossible not to be aware of what is going on in the USA. My point was that if the US stopped being so important to the world I wouldn't have opinions on it.




You're mad because the world clamors for our culture and media?


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

wellthathappened said:


> You're mad because the world clamors for our culture and media?


USA! USA! USA!!!

I like my coffee black and my tea in the harbor


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

wellthathappened said:


> You're mad because the world clamors for our culture and media?



When did I say I was mad? 

I'm just explaining how and why non US citizens know about American issues.
The USA is the largest anglophone country in the world, the world is now increasingly globalised due to the internet and social media. Even if I didn't care about politics, I would still have the cursory knowledge of the US that I do because you literally can not escape it whenever you log onto the internet.


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## MarvinTheParanoidAndroid (Jun 28, 2019)

BoingoTango said:


> Hey guys, let's elect the communist guy with a Chinese background as president. What could possibly go wrong?


It wouldn't surprise me if Yang were a special interest whore for China who's intent on causing an economic crash to try and prop up China as the new dominate force in the global economy. I'm glad this seems to be the common sentiment in this thread.


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Essentially that the US is the only global superpower, everywhere in the world consumes American culture and is constantly bombarded by American citizens and American media about American issues. It's almost impossible not to be aware of what is going on in the USA. My point was that if the US stopped being so important to the world I wouldn't have opinions on it.


You 'mirin', bro?


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 28, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> Daily reminder that the UBI was originally proposed by a libertarian economist to cut back on paying government workers and eliminate government bureaucracy. This is its biggest and basically only positive trait.



Yeah except the cost of the bureaucracy that could be cut is less than 0.001% of the cost of UBI.

It's just the sweetener to try and get you to drink something poisonous.

And it's not that it isn't technically possible to transfer more wealth from the megarich to the poor, it's just that the megarich have so much more power and any attempts at extracting wealth from them will end up extracting wealth from middleclass instead.



TerribleIdeas™ said:


> TL/DR - Venezuela, except in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are the Chinese in perpetual apocalyptic crisis?

It always reminds me of one of my favorite tv moments. It was a program about prejudice and anti-racism. There was an asian lady saying she didn't like the prejudice of chinese people eating dogs and that she only ate dogs a couple of times, including one time their neighbor's pet (they were chinese too).


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> Yeah except the cost of the bureaucracy that could be cut is less than 0.001% of the cost of UBI.
> 
> It's just the sweetener to try and get you to drink something poisonous.
> 
> And it's not that it isn't technically possible to transfer more wealth from the megarich to the poor, it's just that the megarich have so much more power and any attempts at extracting wealth from them will end up extracting wealth from middleclass instead.


He just didn't like all the niggas in suits.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

MarvinTheParanoidAndroid said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if Yang were a special interest whore for China who's intent on causing an economic crash to try and prop up China as the new dominate force in the global economy. I'm glad this seems to be the common sentiment in this thread.



His family is from Taiwan which is probably the single country that hates China the most. Although the criticisms of him being a special interests whore are not unfounded, there has been plenty of speculation as to who his plans will actually help and many believe that his plans only really benefit silicon valley.

There are fears that Andrew Yang would create a brave new world like society where people are kept just above to poverty line enough to mindlessly consume, as people are kept docile the silicon valley tech giants can safely lobby the government to gain more control over elections, taxation and essentially control everything.


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 28, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> He just didn't like all the niggas in suits.


Well Thomas More was a catholic venerated saint, so he probably knew best.



Simply Outplayed said:


> His family is from Taiwan which is probably the single country that hates China the most. Although the criticisms of him being a special interests whore are not unfounded, there has been plenty of speculation as to who his plans will actually help and many believe that his plans only really benefit silicon valley.
> 
> There are fears that Andrew Yang would create a brave new world like society where people are kept just above to poverty line enough to mindlessly consume, as people are kept docile the silicon valley tech giants can safely lobby the government to gain more control over elections, taxation and essentially control everything.



Someone of chinese heritage wanting to build a China like state? What a surprise.

People from Taiwan don't hate China. They just know it belongs to them (much like China knows Taiwan belongs to them).



> To add some context to this, the total yearly budget for the USA federal Government, which according to Yang would be the provider of this welfare, is $4,746,000,000,000. The 'Freedom Dividend' would nearly double the USA federal budget. Eclipsing military spending by four times the amount. For those with knowledge of economics, you know that this would be absolutely devastating. Even those with barely any knowledge in economics can easily see how this can fail miserably almost instantaneously.



Of course basic income can't possibly work. Every experiment with it has failed. And rather than accept the result, the proponents want to try new identical experiments. Each time the criticism is that the experiment isn't large enough.

What you get will get in effect with UBI, is a situation like you have with youtube demonitization; maybe not immediately, maybe only after two years or three years or even four years, but eventually the propaganda will be brought forward that unsocial elements in society will either have to change behaviour or get their UBI pulled. So if you're a nazi, no UBI. Are you a centrist? That's just a pathway to nazism. No UBI. Now you're in an environment where everything has gotten more expensive, people can afford it due to UBI, but not you, because you like to think independantly and maybe shitpost.

Or perhaps you want to homeschool, instead of sending your kids to trannyschool, with mandatory anti-depressant injections at the door. No UBI. You better be rich already. motherfucker.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> Of course basic income can't possibly work. Every experiment with it has failed. And rather than accept the result, the proponents want to try new identical experiments. Each time the criticism is that the experiment isn't large enough.



Have experiments failed? Every time I've read articles about it the studies just talk a statistically insignificant amount of people being given an arbitrary amount of money and those people just carrying on like they normally would albeit slightly richer. From what I've read I wouldn't necessarily conclude that the experiments failed but that they were invalid to begin with.


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## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> Well Thomas More was a catholic venerated saint, so he probably knew best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't want to mention the possible Orwellian aspects such a system could produce. But yes, it is likely the scariest part of such a wide sweeping system.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Arctic Fox said:


> I didn't want to mention the possible Orwellian aspects such a system could produce. But yes, it is likely the scariest part of such a wide sweeping system.



I'm failing to see the difference between that hypothetical and our current reality sadly:


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Have experiments failed? Every time I've read articles about it the studies just talk a statistically insignificant amount of people being given an arbitrary amount of money and those people just carrying on like they normally would albeit slightly richer. From what I've read I wouldn't necessarily conclude that the experiments failed but that they were invalid to begin with.



You think they were going to admit failure? They still want UBI for ideological reasons.

The argument they're trying to prove is that poor people will go into training, or start a local entrepeneur-like kitchen, but these results remain out. They don't really work less either, they end up working the same amount as before.

If they honestly stated the failure, they wouldn't be allowed to try again, so they emphasize in what ways the experiment wasn't conclusive enough.









						Finland basic income 'did not help jobless'
					

Although people ended up happier, the government hoped it would help the unemployed to find work.




					www.bbc.com
				




There are have also various small experiments with it in my country. Failures. I also remember a while back a crowdfunded experiment in Germany being a similar failure of achieving nothing much of anything.

You can bet that the results of the experiment wouldn't be invalid if they succeed. Because at some point you'll have one that has a false positive and it'll be blared from the rooftops on every media channel. You'll see.


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## Arctic Fox (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> I'm failing to see the difference between that hypothetical and our current reality sadly:
> View attachment 819925


Well, most people in the US aren't dependent on people who would use that against them.
This system gets implemented, and if my predictions prove accurate, that would change very, very quickly.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

I hope this clears some things up


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 28, 2019)

Informative


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> Informative


BORING
HIT THIS REEL SHIT MANg


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## Vorhtbame (Jun 28, 2019)

Simply Outplayed said:


> I'm sure that you could cut the US military spending by 10% at the very least



I trust the rest of the world is willing to increase _their_ military spending?  Because for most of them, the only thing keeping the crazy man across their border on _his_ side of the border is the lingering threat of Scary American Soldiers wrecking his shit.



Simply Outplayed said:


> I'm not an American but



But you'll just go ahead and assume that your vague acquaintance with movies and propaganda gives you a complete picture of American life that we Americans, for some strange reason, lack.



Simply Outplayed said:


> Stop being world hegemony and people will not care about your country and government. For instance, I have no opinions regarding how the Central African Republic taxes its citizens.



That's strange; I remember it wasn't that long ago when Uganda was suddenly the most barbaric nation on the face of the planet and if we didn't do something _right now_ to stop their evil homophobic barbarism, the world would end.



Simply Outplayed said:


> If I was American I would definitely feel like a lot of the tax money spent on the military is money that could be better spent improving infrastructure, given to NASA, spent defending net neutrality or literally anything else where actual US citizens could experience some benefit.



If you was American, you probably would "feel" all those things, because I can't imagine there isn't some genetic component to your problems.  And you'd still be wrong.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 28, 2019)

Vorhtbame said:


> I trust the rest of the world is willing to increase _their_ military spending?  Because for most of them, the only thing keeping the crazy man across their border on _his_ side of the border is the lingering threat of Scary American Soldiers wrecking his shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


imma hook a nigga up an mainline him on somma that gangsta shit. let these niggas kno


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 28, 2019)

Vorhtbame said:


> If you was American, you probably would "feel" all those things, because I can't imagine there isn't some genetic component to your problems. And you'd still be wrong.


Ahem
*were


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## Shaved Kiwis (Jun 29, 2019)

Financial equality is coming like it or not. After the nuclear holocaust we will all be too busy surviving on rat carcasses and running from Terminators to accrue any wealth.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 29, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> Ahem
> *were


i don't fux wit niggas that think they broads




how u gone explain fucking a man?

X is a profit. this is fo my dawgs.


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## Arm Pit Cream (Jun 29, 2019)

Hopefully Yang will perform better in the second debate? If it's like the first debate, he'll be gone quickly.


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## Y2K Baby (Jun 29, 2019)

Arm Pit Cream said:


> Hopefully Yang will perform better in the second debate? If it's like the first debate, he'll be gone quickly.


Good. Yang goes bang.


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## Foxxo (Jun 29, 2019)

"Hyperinflation will end poverty."


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 29, 2019)

Vorhtbame said:


> I trust the rest of the world is willing to increase _their_ military spending?  Because for most of them, the only thing keeping the crazy man across their border on _his_ side of the border is the lingering threat of Scary American Soldiers wrecking his shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is a Sargon video in text form. Taking snippets of someone you disagree with, making no substantive critiques and being a tard about the entire thing.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 29, 2019)

Arm Pit Cream said:


> Hopefully Yang will perform better in the second debate? If it's like the first debate, he'll be gone quickly.


i don't kno if u have a connec w. #yangang but can you get him 2 tlk about his plan plz? every1s strugglin an no1 has answers




niggas is struggling an im skerd


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## Arm Pit Cream (Jun 29, 2019)

break these cuffs said:


> i don't kno if u have a connec w. #yangang but can you get him 2 tlk about his plan plz? every1s strugglin an no1 has answers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll call Q and he'll pass on the message.


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## break these cuffs (Jun 29, 2019)

Arm Pit Cream said:


> I'll call Q and he'll pass on the message.


Mashallash brother.


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## Drunk and Pour (Jun 29, 2019)

No.  You can't get rid of poverty.  Giving everybody a thousand dollars a month would just set that as the new poverty line.  You might as well be everybody a penny a month.  Who gets the UBI?  "Everybody"?  Someone that makes a million dollars a year or more?  Why would they need it?  If someone makes $800 a month, does the extra $1000 get added on to it?  Regardless, why would you work if you get paid more to do nothing?  Plus, you know, why are we going to force a federal $15 minimum wage while letting the country be flooded with illegals that are allowed to do if for less than half the price?  I thought $15 minimum was the standard of living, why are we creating a non-white, non-American class that live below the standard of living?


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 29, 2019)

BigRuler said:


> there has never been a real UBI experiment because that is pretty much impossible to do.
> most of these experiments are some variation of "you get X amount in cash every month for the next few years and then it's over" which is a VERY different situation than the actual UBI idea of "you and everybody you know will get X amount in cash every month, forever"
> 
> this difference alone completely invalidates all these results that UBI proponents point to when they say "look people on UBI will continue working as normal, not problem here!"
> like duh, of fucking course they will keep working when they know that the monthly free checks will stop coming in next year.



So to do a real test we need a utopian example, where you're assured that you'll receive UBI for your entire lifespan?

That's basicly more security (and expenses) than what european style pensions offer.


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## Libtard-Wrecking Krogoth (Jun 29, 2019)

small brain: capitalism
medium brain: UBI
big brain: getting rid of money completely


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## Lemmingwise (Jun 29, 2019)

BigRuler said:


> yeah that's what you would have to do if you want to study the actual effects of UBI on people.
> for actually usfeul results you would have to do this to an entire community (town or city) at once, but of course doing that would be prohibitively expensive.



I can promise you now that it won't be useful results.


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## Simply Outplayed-HD (Jun 29, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> So to do a real test we need a utopian example, where you're assured that you'll receive UBI for your entire lifespan?
> 
> That's basicly more security (and expenses) than what european style pensions offer.



Sounds like being born wealthy or upper middle class and having your parents support you well into your late twenties.


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## dirtydeanna96 (Jun 29, 2019)

If you're already unemployed or on NEETbux you probably already qualify for various gov benefits. Social security, HUD, Veterans Benefits, Medicaid, Medicare, Food stamps, WIC.  Heating help. Section 8. For people who have no money and are really starving, these are (or should be) as good as cash

It sounds like yang wants to give poor people $12K a year and cut off all benefits.
This trims government spending and gets lots of people just above the poverty level. ($11,700 annually)

Imagine if phill (isabelle) only got cash and no sec 8 or food stamps? People like him would blow their "Fresh Money" on shit. No food no rent
Tards need to be protected from themselves

My state  government gave people cash (between $100 and $400 per individual annually) ostensibly to pay the light bill.
one year my state changed, and decided to give the funds (monies, lol) directly to the electric company.
people were up in arms! they didn't get their cash! probably pissed not to have free drug money from Sam, their favorite uncle.


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## Vorhtbame (Jun 29, 2019)

Y2KKK Baby said:


> Ahem
> *were



Ahem
*mocking him


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## wellthathappened (Jun 29, 2019)




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## queerape (Jun 29, 2019)

A UBI alone can’t do it, but perhaps a UBI combined with other policies and stronger anti monopoly laws/ nationalization could greatly reduce absolute poverty but not relative poverty.


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## PL 001 (Jun 29, 2019)

The only people seriously advocating  for UBI are Chris Chan level NEETS who treat getting a job and working for what you want like Pazuzu getting splashed with holy water in The Exorcist.


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## Dante Alighieri (Jun 30, 2019)

TalmudSperg said:


> It sounds like yang wants to give poor people $12K a year and cut off all benefits.
> This trims government spending and gets lots of people just above the poverty level. ($11,700 annually)


As if that's feasible. The only way benefits are ever going down is if the government completely shuts down in a civil war or natural disaster.


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## Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost (Jun 30, 2019)

Switzerland had a referendum on UBI with the clause that UBI would be subsidized by the removal of all welfare payments and programs if implemented. The Swiss as a nationality, hate welfare in general and most consider it a necessary evil and would love to see it done away with. UBI was still voted down because it was considered still uneconomical.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jul 4, 2019)

In the future, all work will be automatized and capitalism and wage labour will be abolished.


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## The best and greatest (Jul 4, 2019)

No. UBI isn't intended to solve the issue of poverty, its intended to keep our house-of-cards economy going by giving the consumer class something to spend. The only reason Yang and his buddies want UBI is because then Americans will go out and spend it on flatscreen tvs.


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## lurk_moar (Aug 27, 2019)

My ideal UBI conditions.

UBI for anybody (US citizens)  between 18 to retirement age. Retirement age gets social security based upon income and years paid into the system. No more welfare, WIC, food stamps, unemployed, TANF cash assistance, SSI, disability  ect, but FAFSA is still a thing.

Children under 18 won’t be getting UBI because it will be an incentive for the undesirables to breed for $$$$.

I think if UBI were a thing, many people would dropout of the workforce, and automation would sharply increase. When people are idle and out of the workforce, they won’t be reading the works of Marcus Aurelius or Voltaire, they would be committing crimes, drinking, using drugs, or parked in front of the idiotbox. I think UBI would push more industries to automate.

What’s the point of working hard in school or learning anything when you can just collect a sweet, sweet grand a month for being human. I think America will become idiocracy a lot quicker with UBI.

On the rational side, ten Benjamins a month for a single person is barely enough to get by. Twenty Benjamins a month for a family of four can be done with frugality and sacrifice. I think even with UBI, well paying, hard to automate middle class jobs will still be filled with people passionate about their line of work. Not everybody would want to sit on their duff to collect UBI, only the lazy unskilled people with low ambitions. Most people would be unsatisfied living off of a grand a month, so people will still work.

UBI would be a huge boost for broke college students and struggling twenty somethings.

I work in health care, so universal health is a debate for another day. Even without UBH, some days I feel like it’s the hellidays at Wallyworld or because people are rational enough not enter a profession that handles hazardous human body fluids with potential to accidental infect yourself with Hep C ten to twelve hours a day.


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## Y2K Baby (Aug 27, 2019)

lurk_moar said:


> My ideal UBI conditions.
> 
> UBI for anybody (US citizens)  between 18 to retirement age. Retirement age gets social security based upon income and years paid into the system. No more welfare, WIC, food stamps, unemployed, TANF cash assistance, SSI, disability  ect, but FAFSA is still a thing.
> 
> ...


You're a big dumb gay.


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## Slap47 (Aug 27, 2019)

I like UBI.

It's a streamlined welfare system that doesn't discriminate. 

I also like the ideal of people only working if they want consumer goods. The Romans employed a similar system - everybody got free food - and it worked wonders for creating a commercial economy. This obviously has issues if you believe in social degeneration but punishing people by revoking their UBI may actually reduce crime. Poorer people with nothing to lose now have something to lose -a comfy NEET life. 

We'd have a reason to get rid reason of wasteful bureaucratic jobs and have less opposition to more efficient mechanization. 

Bit anxious of it though - it reeks of social engineering and those experiments always seem to turn out badly.


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## Y2K Baby (Aug 27, 2019)

Apoth42 said:


> I like UBI.


Lol, the Canadian.


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## Sweetpeaa (Nov 18, 2020)

You know when UBI should have been implemented? 2008. The fact that it wasn't shows that it never will be even despite the Covid situation. The thing is I don't think people and their finances were ever really the same after 2008, the change felt in society was irrevocable and certain jobs with particular wages and benefits associated with them never seemed to return. The post Covid economy will be even worse.

The fact now that we have so many jobs without pensions and people have to pay for their own retirement shows where we are headed as a society. Buh bye middle class, it was nice to know you.


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## Hoff Man (Nov 19, 2020)

6 months after ubi  everyones rent will increase by at least 50%


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## Unassuming Local Guy (Nov 19, 2020)

UBI is such a stupid, awful idea that it would take a lifetime pointing out every flaw and the disastrous consequences thereof.  So I'll just start and end with the biggest and simplest one by far:

90% of poor people are not poor because they're not getting enough free shit.  They're poor because they're fuckups and will never not be fuckups no matter how much money you give them.  See: almost every professional athlete, lottery winner, and young solo musician in the entire world.


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## Lemmingwise (Nov 20, 2020)

Slap47 said:


> The Romans employed a similar system - everybody got free food - and it worked wonders for creating a commercial economy.


The Romans used this in their nadir days, in an attempt to stave off ruin. Bread and games were the way to stave off revolution and pessimisticly gain political power only worked for a short time.

Also this wasn't a system that was offered to everybody under their rule; such a system is economically impossible. It was offered to one city, Rome, and used large amounts of import from agricultural behemoths like Egypt.


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## Slap47 (Nov 20, 2020)

Lemmingwise said:


> The Romans used this in their nadir days, in an attempt to stave off ruin. Bread and games were the way to stave off revolution and pessimisticly gain political power only worked for a short time.
> 
> Also this wasn't a system that was offered to everybody under their rule; such a system is economically impossible. It was offered to one city, Rome, and used large amounts of import from agricultural behemoths like Egypt.



The system lasted them more than 800 years. It didn't fix wealth inequality but it created a consumer base that made some capitalism possible.


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## Lemmingwise (Nov 20, 2020)

Slap47 said:


> It didn't fix wealth inequality but it created a consumer base that made some capitalism possible.


It only took an empire larger than Europe to feed a single city.

We should apply this principle to all cities, what could go wrong?


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## Dumpsterfire Enthusiast (Nov 20, 2020)

i dont think that high of UBI would be a good idea but i dont think itd be that bad if it were really minimal to the point where if you lived off of only UBI and didnt have a job you would be living out of a tent or if its really generous the cheapest housing possible eating ramen every day


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## societyguy01 (Nov 21, 2020)

As nice as something like UBI would sound in theory, the driving force behind its implementation is not a sort of "good will" towards the general masses on behalf of the ruling elite. On the contrary, what UBI would essentially serve as is a skinner box like reinforcement tool in the service of social engineering. UBI is a misnomer because UBI will _never _be universally distributed by any fair standard. What's to stop the government from tying in mandatory vaccinations or human bio chipping as a necessary condition for receiving UBI? What's to stop the ruling elite from cutting off UBI to anyone considered a "white nationalist" or "Nazi." terms which can be thrown around without care so much that even Asians and Latinos end up getting called these terms just for being against the cathedral. Those who are loyal to the establishment will get the UBI, while those who go against it will be cut off completely, have their bank account shut down, get fired, doxxed, and worse. In a harmonious, relatively homogenous society it would be a no brainer. But America is anything but that.


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## Overly Serious (Nov 22, 2020)

Slap47 said:


> The Romans employed a similar system - everybody got free food - and it worked wonders for creating a commercial economy.



Only to actual citizens and made possible by importing collossal quantities of grain from the subject states. And it was something done only sporadically during the times the Roman Empire was on the rise as a protection against starvation by its poorest citizens. Later it became a permanent thing and it's one half of the phrase "bread and circuses". Also, I it was subsidized prices not free bread for most of its use. It did become free bread in the late stages until it got badly out of control and Julius Casear reigned it in, I'm not saying saving people from starvation is  a bad thing, mind you. I'm saying that this might not be a good analogy to UBI and more definitely that it wasn't the basis of creating Rome's "commercial economy" which was established very solidly before free bread was a thing. Another significant point to take from your analogy is that it wasn't compatible with uncontrolled immigration / citizenship. Rome didn't say to everyone "come here and have free food". It said "citizens only below a certain means have free food". I'm of the opinion UBI might work but necessarily requires immigration / citizenship control.

For a modern example of a kind of UBI under a different name look at Saudi Arabia. You have a citizen class that receive endless boons from their royalty fuelled by oil wealth. And for similar reasons - keep the people fed and happy. Whilst at the same time you have a near slave underclass of imported workers who do not get such handouts and work crazy hard to make ends meet for the actual citizens. If you introduced UBI into say the USA, it would intentionally or not create an recipient class who had no desire to do unskilled menial jobs and an imported non-recipient class who didn't get UBI to do that menial work.



Hoff Man said:


> 6 months after ubi  everyones rent will increase by at least 50%


Yes. I think the largest effect of UBI would be to decimate the Middle Class, essentially. I should expand on that when I have more time.


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## Joan Nyan (Nov 22, 2020)

Only if we can automate away the majority of work. Post-scarcity economics are a totally different beast than what we have now. When for instance the crops harvest themselves and the trucks drive the food to your door automatically, there's no logical reason you shouldn't get it free, the robots don't need the money. Whether you make it free by giving everyone the money for it or by just giving away free food you get to the same place in the end.


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## Drunk and Pour (Nov 22, 2020)

Drunk and Pour said:


> No.  You can't get rid of poverty.  Giving everybody a thousand dollars a month would just set that as the new poverty line.  You might as well be everybody a penny a month.  Who gets the UBI?  "Everybody"?  Someone that makes a million dollars a year or more?  Why would they need it?  If someone makes $800 a month, does the extra $1000 get added on to it?  Regardless, why would you work if you get paid more to do nothing?  Plus, you know, why are we going to force a federal $15 minimum wage while letting the country be flooded with illegals that are allowed to do if for less than half the price?  I thought $15 minimum was the standard of living, why are we creating a non-white, non-American class that live below the standard of living?


It's been almost a year and a half since I wrote this.  The Covid situation and shut downs just help reinforce my previous opinion.  I work an "essential" retail job and I'm kind of salty that people that were laid off were getting more money for free than I was working a bullshit job.  We are still understaffed and having difficulty hiring more people.  Every time someone complains that there are only three people working in the entire store, I just want to tell them this is what life with UBI would look like.

Edit: formatting.


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