# Is anyone really free?



## JosephStalin (Apr 17, 2019)

Usually take long walks in the morning.  Gives me time to think.  

Today, the question, "Is anyone really free?" came to mind.

I believe every one of us exists in a cage, literal, figurative, or both.  The cage can be of one's own making, or imposed due to circumstances beyond one's control, or both.   Cages are of different sizes.  Sometimes we never notice the presence of that cage until it makes itself known.    Cages are anything from decrepit to luxurious.  

In my opinion, the only place a person can be truly free is in their own minds.  Cages confine the body, but not the mind.  One is free to think as they please.   One is not free to do as they please.  One way or another, there are constraints limiting actions and/or there are consequences of actions.  But there are no constraints hampering thoughts, and no consequences of merely thinking any particular thought.  So think, and be free.  

Just some musings by Uncle Joe Stalin.


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## 1864897514651 (Apr 17, 2019)

Jesus was not kept on His cross by the nails, but by His Love for us. We are free in the purity of love, but enslaved in the mire of sin if we reject love. You are completely free to choose between good and evil. The consequences do not constrain those of us that choose to love God.


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## LinuxVoid (Apr 17, 2019)

Freedom is a lie. You think, because you feel like thinking it, not because you have gathered the will to do so. Basically, you don't have free will, you do what your impulses tell you to do and everything you think is a mixture of your instincts, genetics, whatever. Of course the veneer of freedom is appealing to most of us, wanting to escape the simple truth that we are just gatherings of flesh and bone.


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## ProgKing of the North (Apr 17, 2019)

1864897514651 said:


> Jesus was not kept on His cross by the nails, but by His Love for us. We are free in the purity of love, but enslaved in the mire of sin if we reject love. You are completely free to choose between good and evil. The consequences do not constrain those of us that choose to love God.


your posts ranting against niggers and faggots don't show much love, though


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## RG 448 (Apr 17, 2019)

Not at the moment but the ankle bracelet comes off in a week.


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## Null (Apr 17, 2019)

i am


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## Tragi-Chan (Apr 17, 2019)

I’m free tomorrow evening from 6 HMU.


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## The Crow (Apr 17, 2019)

We'll never truely be free until we leave these bodies and become spirits in the afterlife. There's my two cents.


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## FA 855 (Apr 17, 2019)

JosephStalin said:


> Usually take long walks in the morning.  Gives me time to think.
> 
> Today, the question, "Is anyone really free?" came to mind.
> 
> ...


*Long quote but its really useful.*
“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”
― _Edward Bernays _
If you aren't physically imprisoned, you may very well be mentally, that goes for almost everyone I'd say, and if someone is sure of themselves as being free, they are very likely to be wrong, only through constant paranoia and self doubt does anyone even have a shot at being free.
To answer you properly I would say a good start is to be able to critique everything, and that includes even things you might not want to critique. That establishes autonomy, and perhaps from their you can create your own island of enlightened reason (otherwise if you are a believer in a ideology but you refuse to critique it, you come at risk of being a puppet for whoever made or controls the narrative in question). Never become complacent in your sense of security, because you might find one day that you aren't as free as you thought. 
See Nietzsche and slave morality, as well as the collective unconsciousness, it is a huge source of influence on your thought patterns.
Good luck in your endeavours, I mean it, and enjoy the journey as much as the destination.


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## JosephStalin (Apr 17, 2019)

Null said:


> i am



Why do you believe you are free?  Not trying to be rude, just would like to hear your viewpoint.


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## Logic (Apr 17, 2019)

Finding happiness and satisfaction in what you do and who you are as well as living the way you want to regardless of social pressures is freedom to me.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 17, 2019)

I am not totally free, because I am restrained by the facts of life- so I cannot choose to be a different height, a different race, or to suddenly define gravity or defy the most base biological dictates.  In this sense, none of us are totally free.  But the fact is that we choose each act we perform by ourselves.  Today, I could have chosen not to go to work, but I did so even though I did not feel like it.  If I wanted, I could have chosen to quit my job, and perhaps even to throw some vile substance at my irritating co-worker while doing so- but I did not, because I like my job and the money associated with it more than I dislike my coworker.  Just because a choice would cause things you find unpleasant, or even lead to your immanent death, does not make it any less of a choice.  We are in this world because, at this moment, we have chosen not to kill ourselves.



LinuxVoid said:


> Freedom is a lie. You think, because you feel like thinking it, not because you have gathered the will to do so. Basically, you don't have free will, you do what your impulses tell you to do and everything you think is a mixture of your instincts, genetics, whatever. Of course the veneer of freedom is appealing to most of us, wanting to escape the simple truth that we are just gatherings of flesh and bone.



Being made of flesh and bone does not negate free will.
Show me where my instincts tell me to enjoy television.


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## qt farmer :) (Apr 17, 2019)

JosephStalin said:


> Usually take long walks in the morning.  Gives me time to think.
> 
> Today, the question, "Is anyone really free?" came to mind.
> 
> ...



we still aren't entirely free in our own minds because we are still held in some limitations by its capacity! honk honk!


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## 1864897514651 (Apr 17, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> [redacted]



You do not comprehend the context those words were used in. To love is to be a witness to the Truth. Attempting to defame me just because I say the words "faggot" and "nigger" is not going to be enough for people that actually understood what I articulated in my words.

Furthermore, if you are going to ride on your high horse, then you should explain why you called God a "fucker" because He would not give you a million dollars and a girlfriend with DDs. I call out sinners for their failings so that they can come to penance. You, however, call out God for some absolute nonsense and commit a mortal sin against the Second Commandment in the process.

And in case you do not remember what I am referring to, then here is a link to your post, which is conveniently in my thread:


ProgKing of the North said:


> [redacted]


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## ProgKing of the North (Apr 17, 2019)

1864897514651 said:


> You do not comprehend the context those words were used in. To love is to be a witness to the Truth. Attempting to defame me just because I say the words "faggot" and "nigger" is not going to be enough for people that actually understood what I articulated in my words.
> 
> Furthermore, if you are going to ride on your high horse, then you should explain why you called God a "fucker" because He would not give you a million dollars and a girlfriend with DDs. I call out sinners for their failings so that they can come to penance. You, however, call out God for some absolute nonsense and commit a mortal sin against the Second Commandment in the process.
> 
> And in case you do not remember what I am referring to, then here is a link to your post, which is conveniently in my thread:


I don't care that you use the words nigger and faggot, you chinky kike niggerfaggot. I'm just pointing out that you seem to have consistent hostility towards black and gay people just for being black and gay, which isn't a very loving attitude. Also the fact that you seem to be the arbiter of what is Truth and Godly behavior would seem to be the sin of pride, I already have a Savior on this forum, and his name is @Brad Watson_Miami

Although I don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with somebody too autistic to understand what a joke is.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 17, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> I don't care that you use the words nigger and faggot, you chinky kike niggerfaggot. I'm just pointing out that you seem to have consistent hostility towards black and gay people just for being black and gay, which isn't a very loving attitude. Also the fact that you seem to be the arbiter of what is Truth and Godly behavior would seem to be the sin of pride, I already have a Savior on this forum, and his name is @Brad Watson_Miami
> 
> Although I don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with somebody too autistic to understand what a joke is.


I have a great deal of respect for @1864897514651 for having bedrock faith in something- it's a rare trait.  Now if only what he believed wasn't so full of bile and hate that claims to be love...


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 17, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Don't let the sjws and jews control BCI tech unless you want real thought crimes


"Does free will exist?"
"FUCK THE JOOOS!"
Is that just your default response to any statement?


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 17, 2019)

LinuxVoid said:


> Freedom is a lie. You think, because you feel like thinking it, not because you have gathered the will to do so. Basically, you don't have free will, you do what your impulses tell you to do and everything you think is a mixture of your instincts, genetics, whatever. Of course the veneer of freedom is appealing to most of us, wanting to escape the simple truth that we are just gatherings of flesh and bone.



None of that is stopping us from living wonderful hedonistic lives in virtual reality



Senior Lexmechanic said:


> "Does free will exist?"
> "FUCK THE JOOOS!"
> Is that just your default response to any statement?



JIDF spotted


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## Positron (Apr 17, 2019)

No.  We are under the constraint of our biological bodies, our histories, and our social standings.  

Sartre avers that every person is radically free; even a man behind bars is radically free because he can picture himself not to be in jail.  But even Sartre's notion of radical freedom is far from absolute; a person's "radical freedom" is limited by other people's equally "radical" freedom.  Hence his notorious adage: _Hell is other people_.



JosephStalin said:


> Today, the question, "Is anyone really free?" came to mind.


I think the more pertinent questions are: do we need absolute freedom?  What good is absolute freedom?  If we don't need absolute freedom, then how much freedom is good enough?


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 17, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> JIDF spotted


This isn't /pol/, lad, you don't get to just play the "YOU A JEW" card and win the argument.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 17, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> This isn't /pol/, lad, you don't get to just play the "YOU A JEW" card and win the argument.



Stop infiltrating countries and trying to enslave/genocide everyone and then I might stop calling out the kikes


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 17, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Stop infiltrating countries and trying to enslave/genocide everyone and then I might stop calling out the kikes


I'm American, of solid Germanic stock, you nitwit.


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## 1864897514651 (Apr 17, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> [redacted]



"Nigger" does not refer to black people. If it did, then other races of people should not be offended if it is used against them. This is obviously not the case. I have an essay already on what this word means, so I am not going to waste my time explaining to you that I obviously do not hate black people. What a ridiculous, libelous statement. If you are assuming I somehow hate black people because of my post here, then you are mentally retаrded.

You need to seriously develop reading comprehension. You are engaging in a ridiculous level of libel against me because you cannot comprehend what you read. At the very least, you need to block me and stop reading the things I post.

EDIT: Changed "slander" to "libel" at recommendation of @ProgKing of the North


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## ProgKing of the North (Apr 17, 2019)

1864897514651 said:


> You need to seriously develop reading comprehension. You are engaging in a ridiculous level of slander against me because you cannot comprehend what you read. At the very least, you need to block me and stop reading the things I post.


I'm not slandering you, I'm libeling you. Learn the difference before you try to sue me, please and thank you.

Why would I stop reading your posts? They're hilarious


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## quatchi55 (Apr 17, 2019)

What with the name calling have to do if your free or in what ever freedom you feel in whatever  mind state you have about others ??????


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## Clop (Apr 17, 2019)

Of course I'm free. I'm white.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 17, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> I'm American, of solid Germanic stock, you nitwit.



even worse than a jew


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## Unog (Apr 17, 2019)

Depends on what you consider freedom to be.

Also whether or not you're in international waters.


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## JosephStalin (Apr 17, 2019)

Positron said:


> No.  We are under the constraint of our biological bodies, our histories, and our social standings.
> 
> Sartre avers that every person is radically free; even a man behind bars is radically free because he can picture himself not to be in jail.  But even Sartre's notion of radical freedom is far from absolute; a person's "radical freedom" is limited by other people's equally "radical" freedom.  Hence his notorious adage: _Hell is other people_.
> 
> ...



And those constraints can comprise part of a person's cage.

Agree with Sartre's "Hell is other people".   Looks like we are on the same track.  Radical freedom can only come about through the mind. 

I would ask the question, "What is absolute freedom?"   Is it freedom to do all things?  To think all things?  To do as one pleases without constraint or consequences?  If we can define absolute freedom, then we can look at what good absolute freedom does us, and if it is needed.


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## Lemmingwise (Apr 17, 2019)

JosephStalin said:


> I believe every one of us exists in a cage, literal, figurative, or both. The cage can be of one's own making, or imposed due to circumstances beyond one's control, or both. Cages are of different sizes. Sometimes we never notice the presence of that cage until it makes itself known. Cages are anything from decrepit to luxurious.
> 
> In my opinion, the only place a person can be truly free is in their own minds. Cages confine the body, but not the mind. One is free to think as they please. One is not free to do as they please. One way or another, there are constraints limiting actions and/or there are consequences of actions. But there are no constraints hampering thoughts, and no consequences of merely thinking any particular thought. So think, and be free.




Thread theme:








						Peter Gabriel - My Body is a cage
					

My Body is a cage by Peter Gabriel, available in 1080p HD Audio. Simply hauntingly beautiful. Disclaimer: I do not own any material in the making of either t...




					www.youtube.com
				




I find that the mind can be its own cage. I enjoy doing physical things where my mind is quiet, whether it's garden work or martial arts is the moment where I feel free from my mind; whereas the typical experience discussing ideas on this deep thought forum makes my mind feel free while actively using it.

One is actually free to do as they please; though you might be aware of expected consequences. But often these are not at all as you expect them. It's like the elephant that has been chained to a tree when he was small and has learned to stop testing his strength against it, even now that he is huge and could easily pull out the sapling.

Most often people remain in their cages out of fear, fear of discomfort, or lack of imaginatio n to even consider it.

In regards to thoughts about being free, I've been thinking about sexual liberation. Supposedly before people were stuck in a cage (marriage) and now people are free  to their fuckfest. But looking at the people that go to orgies and such, they do not seem free people at all, and the same for example furries. Their choices in fact limit themselves as many people are socially repelled by what they do and how openly they talk about sex lives that disgust more than a fair share of people. Like a drug liberation is perhaps having open access to all drugs, but a heroine addict might live in some sense a free-er life if there is no access to heroine than the reverse.

Because if you were to value and persue freedom, you would probably also in some sense resist being a slave to whims and addictions.

------

As for being free only inside your own mind, it sounds both lonely and solipsistic. I don't generally consider other people barriers to my freedom and in fact can not fathom freedom without relationships with other people. What value do thoughts have, unless they translate into real world changes?

Like if you figure out a better map of how people interact or you learn how to make a fire, or perhaps improve on it by thinking about the details; sure then you have something practically improved.

But what value do those ideas have that never intersect into the real world? Is that freedom or just brain candy?


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## Positron (Apr 17, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> As for being free only inside your own mind, it sounds both lonely and solipsistic. I don't generally consider other people barriers to my freedom and in fact can not fathom freedom without relationships with other people. What value do thoughts have, unless they translate into real world changes?


That's why Heaven is also other people.  To put it in a slightly mercenary way, they are part of your project in this world.


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## mr.moon1488 (Apr 17, 2019)

The question is unanswerable, because the definition of freedom is entirely dependent on the opinions of the person evaluating it.  I could be the only man alive, but not consider myself free.  Aren't there always consequences for certain actions?  Should I chose not to eat, will I not be punished with death?  In my opinion, all men are their own oppressors to at least some extent.  If you do not fear the consequences of your own actions, then you can do almost anything.


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## Lemmingwise (Apr 17, 2019)

mr.moon1488 said:


> The question is unanswerable, because the definition of freedom is entirely dependent on the opinions of the person evaluating it. I could be the only man alive, but not consider myself free. Aren't there always consequences for certain actions? Should I chose not to eat, will I not be punished with death? In my opinion, all men are their own oppressors to at least some extent. If you do not fear the consequences of your own actions, then you can do almost anything.


We are all free to face the consequences.


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## The Crow (Apr 17, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Stop infiltrating countries and trying to enslave/genocide everyone and then I might stop calling out the kikes



jewish people are superior to whites bc they're more intelligent, cunning, and better businessmen


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## Red Hood (Apr 18, 2019)

Your mother gives it away for free, does that count?


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## Lemmingwise (Apr 18, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> isn't /pol/, lad, you don't get to just play the "YOU A JEW" card and win the argument



You can't win them by saying "da jooos" either, so you guys are still tied.

Not that anyone is keeping score.


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## JosephStalin (Apr 18, 2019)

mr.moon1488 said:


> The question is unanswerable, because the definition of freedom is entirely dependent on the opinions of the person evaluating it.  I could be the only man alive, but not consider myself free.  Aren't there always consequences for certain actions?  Should I chose not to eat, will I not be punished with death?  In my opinion, all men are their own oppressors to at least some extent.



I hear you.  Some real food for thought there. 

Re "If you do not fear the consequences of your own actions, then you can do almost anything.", you are absolutely right - at least you can attempt almost anything.


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## SugarSnot (Apr 18, 2019)

Not even your own mind is truly free. Human interaction is literally built around being able to control each others thoughts and has been so specialized that this can be done long distance. Every word you read or hear is literally a thought someone other than you has implanted in your brain and you can neither unthink it or unread it consciously.

You can not decide what you believe in either. You are either in a state of being convinced or you are not. Sure, you can make a conscious effort to hold onto your beliefs or make an attempt to be open minded; hell you may even live your life according to a belief you _wish_ was true, but true belief comes from a state of being convinced one way or the other.


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## Mewtwo_Rain (Apr 18, 2019)

I don't even think our own minds are truly free. Even in thought process you probably consider actions or plans you'd like to carry out but you are constrained either by lack of will, or realizing the consequences of those actions you consider doing or carrying out or even the limitations of your mind. Some of us are also burdened by our past, trauma, or you may purposely block your mind for many reasons.

You can create a fortitude of your will, that you try to impose or build up or contain, but I don't think that can ever be a "freedom" of itself. Even when we make "free" choices our mind still balances the risk vs. reward of those actions and then either denies us those choices depending on the consequences or limits them.

Honestly, not the same exact thing but I used to debate a psychologist who believed the most natural people or in a sense "free people" were those who were insane. Although it sounds like a joke because many of them are out of control, but he used to argue because they had no restraint and often wouldn't' gauge the risk vs. reward maybe they were indeed the most free people (or as far as one can be within certain limitations) on Earth. They often do what they want without consideration of the consequences, no care for learning from repeat behavior in many cases.

In a sense I wonder if that is the true form of absolute freedom: Chaos? (Or maybe just insanity itself.)


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## LinuxVoid (Apr 18, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> Being made of flesh and bone does not negate free will.
> Show me where my instincts tell me to enjoy television.


Being made of flesh and bone completely negates free will as those are physical objects set on a evolutionary path which we have no control over. There is nothing about you that has even a semblance of independence from flesh and blood, unless you commit suicide that is.
Your instincts tell you to gather information, the easiest way to do so is to watch tv, as you do not have to concentrate and the info is being fed to you in the easiest way possible. Basically television is a great way to waste time, the biggest enemy of human beings.


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## John Titor (Apr 18, 2019)

I am not a number! I am a free man!


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## Julias_Seizure (Apr 18, 2019)

Depends on how you define free. If your doing something just for survival then it doesnt count because thats something you have no choice in. Most people spend 30% of their lives sleeping which noone can really choose not to do. Another 30% working which also isnt much of a choice. So that leaves 40% of peoples time thats actually spent freely not accounting for all the other small things that everyone does but has no choice in


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## nonvir_1984 (Apr 18, 2019)

JosephStalin said:


> Usually take long walks in the morning.  Gives me time to think.
> 
> Today, the question, "Is anyone really free?" came to mind.
> 
> ...


This is the question we were posed in Philosophy 101, first day. The first move is to ask: What do you mean by "free". We spent the next 10 weeks on that.
Best course I ever did; fucked me for life. 
And my answer today: kind of, sometimes, but not really most of the time, because we are driven by passions, appetites, wants, desires and so on, that prevents us being really impartial and in control and keeping in perspective all that stuff that influences our decisions and skews our perceptions. 
It's a great question.
And I leave  you with this:
Stone walls do not a prison make,
Nor iron bars a cage:
Minds innocent and quiet take
That for an hermitage.
If I have freedom in my love,
And in my soul am free,
Angels alone, that soar above,
Enjoy such liberty.
from To Althea, from Prison, by Richard Lovelace.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 18, 2019)

LinuxVoid said:


> Being made of flesh and bone completely negates free will as those are physical objects set on a evolutionary path which we have no control over. There is nothing about you that has even a semblance of independence from flesh and blood, unless you commit suicide that is.
> Your instincts tell you to gather information, the easiest way to do so is to watch tv, as you do not have to concentrate and the info is being fed to you in the easiest way possible. Basically television is a great way to waste time, the biggest enemy of human beings.



I can still make choices.
I meant fiction.  Let me use a different example: if I am really just an evolutionary slave, why do I intentionally make sub-optimal decisions, like, for example, shitposting on Kiwi Farms instead of getting ready for work?


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## LinuxVoid (Apr 18, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> I can still make choices.
> I meant fiction.  Let me use a different example: if I am really just an evolutionary slave, why do I intentionally make sub-optimal decisions, like, for example, shitposting on Kiwi Farms instead of getting ready for work?


Dude, I am not you, why would I know why you are wasting time shitposting on Kiwi farms, maybe you want attention and your work won't give you any? Maybe your work is bs and deep down you know it which is way you are reluctant to go there? There a million reasons why you could be making the decisions that you do.
Look man, you could be a psychopath killing children at your local kindergarten, my point is that it doesn't matter what you do or who you are, you only exist in your head and whatever you do, is really done by whatever compulsion is moving your action at this moment.


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## SugarSnot (Apr 18, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> I can still make choices.
> I meant fiction.  Let me use a different example: if I am really just an evolutionary slave, why do I intentionally make sub-optimal decisions, like, for example, shitposting on Kiwi Farms instead of getting ready for work?


Evolution doesn't give a damn about optimization, all it cares about is if the creature is able to survive long enough in the current environment to have children. The internet is a very new environmental factor in the history of our genes and will without a doubt have an effect on the direction of our species.


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## Lemmingwise (Apr 18, 2019)

Mewtwo_Rain said:


> I don't even think our own minds are truly free. Even in thought process you probably consider actions or plans you'd like to carry out but you are constrained either by lack of will, or realizing the consequences of those actions you consider doing or carrying out or even the limitations of your mind. Some of us are also burdened by our past, trauma, or you may purposely block your mind for many reasons.
> 
> You can create a fortitude of your will, that you try to impose or build up or contain, but I don't think that can ever be a "freedom" of itself. Even when we make "free" choices our mind still balances the risk vs. reward of those actions and then either denies us those choices depending on the consequences or limits them.
> 
> ...



I don't understand why people focus on being "truly free". While certainly it can be hard to conceptualise these kind of absolutes, it can be easy to look at the comparative freedom between say, being born in north korea (as anyone except glorious leader) or basicly any other country.

In also think freedom is less about a kind of omnipotence or perfect discipline of mind, and rather about negation of the opposite, of being unchained. 

Because you might well choose to never leave your house similar to being placed under house arrest. You don't feel a chain until it's preventing you from walking forward.

But when you do, it's hard to notice anything else. Like a European man in Japan, there comes a point where the doors remain closed (or a black man in US, etcetera). Suddenly, it's hard not to notice the chain and rebel against it. To fight for freedom, through either word or deed.

I think we have a very strong drive to be free, which is why movies like the matrix and books like nineteen eighty-four  resomate so strongly with people. Because the way to limit people's freedom is more subtle these days. Journalists aren't forced what to write like in the soviet union, but you won't keep your job as journalist if you're not the type of journalist to weite the right kinda thing politically.

There is no ban on art, but only art with specific messages get massive amounts of funding and patronage (either ugly, demoralizing art or pro multiculturalism art, or both. I can understand someone being skeptical about this claim, but it's my field with decades of experience and I can prove it, though would prefer a seperate thread for it). There is somewhat of a ban on books now, with the removal of books and wikipedia is getting more like this by the day as well.

Censorship is the removal of the freedom to exchange ideas and information. Again it's when you notice the limits of said freedom that the chains become noticable, and if you're anything like me, which I think in this respect most people are, then you get a fire in your heart to want to defend that kind of freedom.

There are unlimited ways in which you may be chained, and at any given point you are unlikely to be free of all of them, but that doesn't mean you can't find greater or lesser freedom from the choices you make.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes, you get what you need.


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## DDBCAE CBAADCBE (Apr 18, 2019)

The answer is no. True freedom isn't possible in a functioning society.


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## Mewtwo_Rain (Apr 18, 2019)

Lemmingwise said:


> I don't understand why people focus on being "truly free". While certainly it can be hard to conceptualise these kind of absolutes, it can be easy to look at the comparative freedom between say, being born in north korea (as anyone except glorious leader) or basicly any other country.
> 
> In also think freedom is less about a kind of omnipotence or perfect discipline of mind, and rather about negation of the opposite, of being unchained.
> 
> ...



I fully agree with your concept, and I don't want my post to come off as suggesting I'm not satisfied with my level of freedom. In a sense I poised the question if chaos or insanity is absolute freedom because it is a negative connotation, and thus maybe shouldn't be needed or striven for, since  analogy wise I'm more posing the question what would it mean for a man to get everything he ever wanted[Power/desires/etc.] (in this case "absolute freedom" if he had to sacrifice his soul (or in this case sanity/comfort of balance) for that very concept.


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## boulderblundermatt90 (Apr 18, 2019)

going to toss my two cents. it depends on what "freedom" is. 

is it the freedom to make and act on any decision you desire? then yeah, sure. of course certain ones will get you killed (like trying to tank a blow from a speeding car, or trying to raid your local cops) but you can absolutely take them and not have your brain instantly shut down. only your personal hangups stop that, which are grown from experience and environment, usually. 

but if you mean freedom like those sovcits sperg about, then no, no it does not. you will never be able to shoot joe schmo and duel for your honor in court like an autist. we've moved on from that world, go sperg in africa if you're that hung up on it.


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## vanilla_pepsi_head (Apr 18, 2019)

DDBCAE CBAADCBE said:


> The answer is no. True freedom isn't possible in a functioning society.



That's about it. Modern free society is mostly about optimizing the level of personal freedom one has (without infringing on anyone else's autonomy, of course) while setting ground rules about how much one must contribute to maintaining a healthy society. There is always controversy about these limits of course (vaccinations, arms, hate speech, taxes) but overall if it were that bad of a deal you'd have a lot more people going full hermit and living off the grid in the middle of Buttfuck, Nowhere. 

It's arguable if being more self sufficient is equal to being "more free" but I don't believe it is, personally. Living off the grid requires massive time dedication to basic survival and I'd feel less "free" doing that than living in the city with relatively massive amounts of leisure time at the expense of following a few laws, paying taxes and outsourcing my problem solving to the police. That's just me though. If a hardcore survivalist feels more free doing his own thing then I wouldn't argue with him.


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## JosephStalin (Apr 18, 2019)

While walking this morning was mulling over the concept of "absolute freedom".   After some thought, I defined "absolute freedom"  as the ability to physically do anything you want to do, without limits, constraints, or consequences.  If you can think of doing it, you go out and do it.    That just isn't possible, for anyone.   In that respect, all of us have a limited physical freedom, to greater and lesser extents.

Thinking some more, while you have the freedom to think of anything, without limits, constraints, or consequences, that freedom is limited due to the limits on the physical ability to bring those thoughts to fruition.  

So if being truly, absolutely free means being able to conceive of anything and being physically able to make any concept reality, then nobody is truly and absolutely free.   We all have limited freedom, again, to greater and lesser extents, at least as human beings in this plane of existence.


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## ICametoLurk (Jun 22, 2019)

Liberalism is "freedom from" and not "freedom to".

In other words, Liberalism can only sustain itself as long as there is an ideological enemy from which the people are free. You know, Monarchism, Fascism, religions, and Communism were viewed as enemies because they viewed a Monarch, the nation-state, gods, class, as more impotent than the individual.

Once the enemy is gone, people start to realize they aren't actually free and Liberalism has to look for other enemies.

This is happening today, with the rise of the anti-racist, anti-homophobic, anti-misogynist, anti-nationalist liberals, left wing liberals paint right wing liberals as fascists and right wing liberals paint left wing liberals as communists. There is no enemy because Liberalism won so it starts eating itself.

This is all done only to keep the nihilistic individualist ideology of liberalism alive, because without the enemy, liberalism cannot operate.

 It's good because this moves history forward.


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## UptownRuckus (Jun 22, 2019)

Freedom comes from Obedience


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## Ughubughughughughughghlug (Jun 22, 2019)

ProgKing of the North said:


> your posts ranting against niggers and faggots don't show much love, though



They're not real people, though, they don't count.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Jun 22, 2019)

Ughubughughughughughghlug said:


> They're not real people, though, they don't count.


Please create a non-tautological definition for "real person" that excludes these categories.


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## PT 522 (Jun 23, 2019)

Free will does not exist--not logically, not scientifically, not philosophically.
Lab testing could guess which button participants would chose randomly at will a full second in advance before they were even aware that they were about to make a choice.
The more we find out about the world the more that the idea we are all individual actors slowly starts to die. Environmental factors control everyone, just in a complex and seemingly unpredictable way.


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## HolocaustDenier (Jun 23, 2019)

"The beginning of freedom is the realization that you are not “the thinker.” The moment you start watching the thinker, a higher level of consciousness becomes activated. You then begin to realize that there is a vast realm of intelligence beyond thought, that thought is only a tiny aspect of that intelligence. You also realize that all the things that truly matter – beauty, love, creativity, joy, inner peace – arise from beyond the mind. You begin to awaken."


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## Autocrat (Jun 23, 2019)

Free to various extents, depending on how much we take control of our lives.

*The Argument For Freedom in a Predetermined Universe*
I do believe in pre-detemination (i.e. causality on a universal scale), but just because it's pre-determined doesn't mean it's out of our control. I like Indian food and I'm not a big fan of German. A hypothetical friend likes both. If this friend gives me the choice between Indian and German, I will pick Indian unless other causal factors make me choose German. Just because it's pre-ordained what I'd pick based off of my preferences, doesn't make the preference or choice any less mine. 
(Just googled this and it's called Compatibilism)



Fat Pikachu said:


> Free will does not exist--not logically, not scientifically, not philosophically.



See above


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## Exigent Circumcisions (Jun 23, 2019)

I'll just begin by stating that anybody who argues for absolute determinism is undermining their own credibility: if you don't believe that we're capable of freedom of _thought_ at the very least, why are you making an argument at all? Nobody's going to change their minds based on your arguments, and that's the _basis of your argument._

Anyway; free? I'd say we're free in all the ways that are actually important, and constrained in ways that make life worth living. Without constraint there'd be nothing to strive for or against, so there goes achievement, satisfaction, redemption, etc. Nothing that comes for free is worth a damned thing, most well-adjust people understand that just fine. It's definitely true that sometimes the only place a man can be free is his mind, but our minds (and souls) are the entire basis of human ascendancy over Nature to begin with, so that makes sense to me. To have a mind _is_ the basis of freedom, I guess is what I'm trying to articulate here.

What you decide to do with that freedom and the consequences that result from that are up to the individual but again, these constraints aren't bugs in my worldview; they're the features.

ETA; @JosephStalin I wasn't going to go into this but I see you asked the question "What good would Absolute Freedom do us?" or something similar. I honestly think not much. Again, without constraint life would become dull relatively quickly. I could probably keep myself entertained for a few thousands years without the constraint of death, but after I've done everything a few thousand times I imagine death would be a blessing; imagine life after all the stars go out. Pretty bleak.

Likewise with anything else. Life is only precious because of it's sheer improbability in the face of the basic laws of Nature; everything is gradually falling apart and going dark around us and yet here we are, living, thinking beings sitting on an autistic web-forum wondering what it's all about.


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## Roast Chicken (Jun 26, 2019)

Unless you have an endless income and no family to depend on you, then you aren't really free. My definition of being free is the ability to go where you wish and do what you like without worrying about work, bills, mortgages and other people.

With that kind of life, only aging, illness and death would be your constraints. Many would find it very lonely, though.

Intellectual capacity is another limiter; one must be clever to survive on their own.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 26, 2019)

Freedom's one of those things that always turns into a granular and relative measure.  More is generally better if the people being given that freedom can handle it, and THAT'S the stickiest question.

Absolute freedom is a myth until we become star-children a la Clarke, however.  You'll always be a slave to your own biological constraints, and you can only push the envelope so far.


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## Heartmoth (Jun 26, 2019)

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose
Nothin', don't mean nothin' if it ain't free.


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## Sprig of Parsley (Jun 26, 2019)

Heartmoth said:


> Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose
> Nothin', don't mean nothin' if it ain't free.


Fuck off Janis you're dead, dead people can't shitpost on forums.


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## ProgKing of the North (Jun 26, 2019)

Sprig of Parsley said:


> Fuck off Janis you're dead, dead people can't shitpost on forums.


Kristofferson's still alive though


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 27, 2019)

Am I free?

_bald eagle flies and screeches over the horizon_

*Yes.* I am always free.


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## Anesthesia (Jul 2, 2019)

No. They never were. 
And they never will be.


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## Sīn the Moon Daddy (Jul 2, 2019)

Does humanity even deserve freedom?

Lol no. It's adorable that you chimps even believe that you're free.

The human brain is quite literally addicted to tyranny. It feels good to place responsibility in the hands of another. It feels good to be told what to do. All of the guns and constitutions on Earth are never going to change the reality that you're just some shitty gorilla who is preprogrammed by nature to be a little bitch.


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## KiwiKritter (Jul 2, 2019)

The only way to be free is to self governed, and unless you go completely off the grid thats impossible. You can achieve partial freedom moving to a place with less censorship, but even then its never truly free.


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## Znj1337 (Jul 6, 2019)

JosephStalin said:


> Why do you believe you are free?  Not trying to be rude, just would like to hear your viewpoint.



You Know freedom or what it really means to BE FREE when you have your 1st "I am" moment (wich could also be called enlightenment, salvation, self realization...)  for the duration of that moment you are FREE and you also Know the difference between Being that and thinking that you are. That is the only way to experience real Freedom at least as much as I know.


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## BillionBisonBucks (Jul 6, 2019)

Everyone is conditioned from birth to fit the social scene they arrive in, by action and thought both. The very language you think in alters the terms of your thoughts with the weight of your entire culture. True freedom could only be ferality, I suspect.


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## drtoboggan (Jul 9, 2019)

John Titor said:


> I am not a number! I am a free man!


Be seeing you.


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## Eris! (Jul 9, 2019)

Everyone is perfectly free. You have perfect and absolute control over your own actions, and over your own choices.
Everything you do, you do because you choose to do it.


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## John Titor (Jul 9, 2019)

drtoboggan said:


> Be seeing you.


And you.


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## Aumis Graham (Jul 10, 2019)

Yes, we all are free, in the stoic sense of freedom. At any moment, you could end any suffering. Not trying to be edgy, but certainly even in a prison cell one can be free. One must always be mentally free and unworried, or else life is going to be a long, long miserable affair.


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