# God is a requirement for a free world



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

God is foundational in the formation of America. While Christian fundamentalism is the religion du jour for the US, it isn't necessarily true that it needs to be so. The Declaration of Independence says, "...*the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them*..." making it quite clear that even if things change and it isn't Christianity anymore, you still need to regard the fundamentals of nature's design when creating a functional and fair society and its policies. While I will give reasons for Christian fundamentalism in America, *it is important *to realize that the point I am making here is the founding fathers determined the fundamentality of human liberty is so paramount that the language needs to be vague enough to not be easily dismissed. Put simply, we cannot dismiss this line of the declaration because it follows any specific teaching or denomination, it very forwardly reminds us that these are laws of nature no matter what perspective you take.

_In God We Trust 
One Nation, Under God

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”_

_“...with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence”_​
_“...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”_




Most people would agree that we are born with free will. Any form of antitheism or atheism would have to obey this simple reality because their system of perception cannot support fate or destiny. Christian faiths posits that God has His plan for each of us, but that free will is given to man to pursue his destiny. The point is that no matter who you are, it's very difficult to argue that humans are _ not_ fundamentally free and unrestricted at birth. Yes, a baby has dependency on its parents, but natural dependencies are not the same as restricting your God-given freedoms.

It is important to know that no man can free you, he can only set you back. By law and virtue of nature, you are able to do anything your body and mind allows for and by that simple fact alone we can recognize that humans are fundamentally free. For a government or authority or anyone to tell you that your freedom is a privilege and not a given is an outright lie and a failure to recognize both nature and God. Ignoring nature and God has brought us to where we are today. The most powerful people in the world completely reject the possibility that life has meaning (or at least, they never touch the topic or make it a public issue, while constantly pushing that life is totally random and meaningless), that each person is sacred in their own right, and that God-given facts of life are protected.

So why God? Why not naturalism or humanism or rationalism or Science™? Why not Islam? It's simple. Christianity is the foundation of America, which is (or has been lol) the pillar of freedom in modern society. The founding fathers did not desire a theocracy and were largely rationalists with Christian fundamentalist ideals.  Christianity is the most practised religion in the US, Canada, UK, and Australia. Christianity upholds moral values that have been in place for decades if not centuries in the western world. When applied effectively, the Bible teaches lessons and instills values at an early age that can make night-and-day developmental differences.

Lastly, *God is a final authority*. True Christian *Fundamentalism* is absolutely necessary for any of this to function. The founding fathers were Christian Rationalists and Deists which meant they didn't believe in God in a supernatural sense, but did believe in the teachings the Bible provided and the benefits of the religion itself. At least in our history books, these men were truly honest men who believed in the teachings of Jesus themselves, and did not see a necessity to imply the wrath of God in the founding of America. This attitude needs to change, because only by believing there is something far more powerful than you at work can you have an effective and fair government. Deist worldviews don't do anything but attempt to rationalize the world around us and do little to give weight to morality. The lessons have little purpose if there is no greater force at work. It may do well to help ease the minds of many, but it won't improve our society or freedoms.

God's land, God's country, God's people. These are the fundamental principles under which the most free country in the modern world was formed. It is the reason men escaped British rule and founded an independent nation. No man, no government, no crown may rule over them. It was God's will that they be free, and through this ideal they recognized that British Monarchs were not the final authority on their lives.

It was through God that we found freedom and actualized it. It is through the death of God that all of it has crumbled away.

What would the return of Christianity look like? It would have to happen organically, and by and large we can observe Christian values returning to the forefront of society. Roe v Wade is an obvious example, and we can see it growing against the ongoing trans fad. I'm not going to prognosticate an entire civil war scenario like some users would, but for certain it would be highly divisive and likely result in balkanization in the west. Spending 2 years indoors and alone has had a lot of people questioning their station and purpose in life and at this point, God is about the only thing left to hope for.

Many people will take the position of believing religion is simply an effective means of control. This is only true in part. Any effectively congregated, agreeable, suggestible, and homogeneous group can be controlled, brainwashed, and weaponized. Look no further than modern schools to see how politicians have propped themselves up as gods, how the ideology is one of radical acceptance and collectivism, and how the practise of this ideology is predicated on defeating a demonic enemy: the so-called alt-right bigots. On this notion, I reject any argument that religion will be used for control on its face. In the present day, Leftist ideologies are used for control in much the same way religion has been used classically (Roman Catholics smashing savages and brainwashing their kids). I only posit that Christian values and the belief of a higher power is required, and that no other form of rational worldview can fill this place or carry out this role.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.



Spoiler: Disclaimer 



not formerly religious, never have been. Religion was never in my home in any form. I was a bit of _le internet atheist_ when I was younger and more impressionable but through age and maturity I have recognized the sheer importance of practising any form of spirituality. I have always taken a liking to the Bible and its teachings and it is only through looking outside these last 2 years that I decided that I need to seriously consider faith in my life. Please try to be respectful.



TL;DR: The recognition of a higher power (and therefore a literal fundamental interpretation of the Bible) are a necessity to preserve the freedoms of Americans especially, since the foundation of the country is built on Christian values. Much of what's here can be applied to other countries where the majority religion is Christianity. Freedom and the protection thereof in America is predicated on those rights being God-given and inalienable under Him. Without God, there is zero reason to respect the documents, policies, and ideals upon which America was founded.


----------



## Prophetic Spirit (May 20, 2022)

I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

Prophetic Spirit said:


> I'm gonna shitpost, but this is in Deep Thoughts.
> Man, why just don't fight for yourself and don't depend on a idea which never gonna know until our deaths in a pathetic way?


I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife. Following religion for the simple hope that you will go somewhere else later is not pious at all. I would appreciate if you read the OP because you're really far off base of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> I used to think the same way, but it's not about an afterlife.


The Bible would beg to differ.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


Exile so we don't need to hear your warmed-over fedora takes.


----------



## byuu (May 20, 2022)

> In God We Trust


That only became the US motto in the 50s.
"One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?


It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


byuu said:


> That only became the US motto in the 50s.
> "One nation under god" is from the 50s as well.


Correct. 47-49 and 53-55 were the last periods that Republicans held power before Democrats took over until the late 90s.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

Osmosis Jones said:


> It's not problematic to not believe. It is problematic to push others away from morality and light. What do we do now with people who don't believe? Ideally we'd offer serious non-believers a place to go willingly. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool and I'd rather have Christians indoctrinating my kids than what gets spun to them right now.


What qualifies as "pushing others away". Is simply speaking of our non belief enough? Do you intend to codify the law to make it to where I'm not allowed to express my views, but you are? Good luck with that. 

And when those kids begin to shun you for your lukewarm beliefs? 

And yes, your views are "Lukewarm" by scripture. "I find you neither hot nor cold and I spew you from my mouth" Revelations 3:16


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

Nice schizo rant. With that said, I agree God is a requirement in the sense that people are going to worship something and their inherently religious nature cannot be avoided. This is a big folly of modern secular society believing that they are so enlightened that they've gotten past such backwards superstitious practices as "religion." Instead of actually being areligious, they just end up worshiping other things instead (social justice, diversity, women's rights, climate change, communism [communism has basically been a religion since its inception], etc., they end up kneeling at the altar of wokeshit).

The advantage of following a proper religion like Christianity is that it recognizes what it is, and you and everyone else around you also formally recognizes that it is a religion and treats it as such. The new secular religion of wokeshit denies what it really is which leads to all sorts of nasty outcomes and mismatched social interactions. So you don't necessarily have to pick Christianity (although it seems like the best choice to me), but if you are going to have a well-ordered society, you do need to have a formal recognition of and acceptance of religion as an inevitable feature of life, so that it can be incorporated into your culture properly rather than subverting it like a parasite.



MT Foxtrot said:


> So what do you do with non believers like me in your utopia?



Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


----------



## mrolonzo (May 20, 2022)

Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Deport. Only semi joking. If I were to set up a proper "Christian state," nonbelievers would be able to live and work there if they really wanted to, but would have no political rights and no citizenship.


And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?


----------



## gang weeder (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> And if I fake it, how do you determine if it's valid and sincere?



Ultimately, you can't. Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society. Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned. Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


----------



## Latvophile (May 20, 2022)

Where's the autism rating when you need it?


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

gang weeder said:


> Ultimately, you can't.


Then it's not much good as a litmus test. 


gang weeder said:


> Obviously we can't monitor people's inward thoughts and beliefs. But you'd have to at least pretend to believe and be convincing about it, if you wanted to participate as a full member of society.


The Bible is against that. It has no respect for those who cry "Lord! Lord!" but have no love in their hears. No respect for laws like that especially. 


gang weeder said:


> Not really that much different from the current state of affairs where vast swathes of people have to pretend to believe in all kinds of progressive bullshit to avoid being unpersoned.


So why emulate that? 


gang weeder said:


> Except that, y'know, Christian morals generally lead to higher life satisfaction and better human outcomes, and the opposite for wokeshit.


So why are so many rural areas miserable and in decline despite the prevalence of fundamentalist Christianity there?


----------



## LillWeeb (May 20, 2022)

John Adams would think so


----------



## Wormy (May 20, 2022)

LillWeeb said:


> John Adams would think so


Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


----------



## MAPK phosphatase (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Hubris.


----------



## Exigent Circumcisions (May 20, 2022)

mrolonzo said:


> Fascinating that you think people are free. They are not. They're tied in various ways by conscience and material necessity. That free will you speak of is severely bounded to.


Yeah! If free will was real then I could fly if I really wanted to! And eat cake all day without getting fat! Free will is a scam!


----------



## Osmosis Jones (May 20, 2022)

MT Foxtrot said:


> Then why didn't he mandate Christianity under the law for all Americans?


Because Christian values were the basis for raising children. Even if you later became a Christian rationalist, most people if not all people in America held and demonstrated those values, the same way modern Americans are indoctrinated into and espouse wokeness.


----------

