# A Utopia in 2050, according to an Australian Socialist Economist



## Glad I couldn't help (Jan 22, 2019)

Here an interesting article on an Australian socialist economist, about his vision for a 'realistic' utopian social Oz by 2050:



> Socialist utopia 2050: what could life in Australia be like after the failure of capitalism?
> From four-day weeks to unconditional basic income to free education, it’s possible to imagine a future where society’s focus has moved from consumption to quality of life
> 
> Looking at contemporary politics, it’s easy to feel a sense of despair. All across the world, we see a resurgence of racist demagogues, now rendered respectable by the embrace of the “mainstream” political right and much of the commentariat. Pauline Hanson, once considered beyond the pale, is now barely distinguishable from Peter Dutton and Scott Morrison. On the other hand, across the English-speaking world and to some extent beyond, young people have moved sharply to the left.
> ...



So let give a bullet point summary of what his 'realistic utopia' looks like:

Multinational investment banks and hedge funds no longer exist; replaced with small credit unions and publicly-owned banks. Financial transaction taxes and tight regulation prevent large private banks from returning.
Monday is now regular day off, with eight weeks of annual leave and extra public holidays. This has little effect on productivity, since technological progress has continued and with various inefficient market activities have ended, so the 'social value of production' has increased. There is little unemployment, with people having a paid job getting an "participation income" for socially beneficial activities like volunteering. Additionally, there is a UBI for the unemployable, which makes up only a small fraction of people.

Lots of work is done over the Internet, which is a free public service. Goolag and Fakebook are dead because the advising model has died with the end of private business.
Big corporations are gone from most sectors of the economy, with the exception of manufacturing, which has about ~10% of GDP. This is most done by robots. Monopoly infrastructure (e.g. rail, electricity) has been re-nationalized.

Tax avoidance and wage theft have been eliminated by vigorous government and union action. There is an "audit culture" where possible misuse of funds is given higher priority than any gains from using that money. Intellectual Property has been abolished. 

Energy comes exclusively from renewable energy, with electric cars and sustainable agriculture.
So some of it sounds good (e.g. the end of IP, no Facebook or Google), but I do have some complaints about this vision. First, it assume that state-owned corporations wouldn't be run psychopathically like the private corporation, which it really optimistic, especially if they became a major part of the economy. Secondly, it feels his vision would require lot of people behaving at their absolute best (e.g. the "audit culture") . This would require either massive police presence (which would bring own corruption problems) or a tight knit culture that weeds out those who fall out of line (e.g. Jewish diamond dealers, who will kick anybody out of their club if they trying to shortchange each other), both of which he wouldn't want. Also, getting energy exclusively from renewables, world-wide, by 2050 is impossible.  But what do I know, I'm just a right-wing shill who can only reply to utopias with "muh Venezuela", "muh Gulags" and "Jordan Peterson".

Anyway, what do you think of his utopia? Is it desirable? Is it realistic? What kind of utopia do you envision?


----------



## Tootsie Bear (Jan 22, 2019)

No, human society is too complex and people are too divided over issues that any type of utopia will be impossible to accomplish.


----------



## Kevin Fudd (Jan 22, 2019)

Currently, with the decline in the manufacturing sector, most of Australia's unions are dying. I'm sure that many of those studying social sciences and the like do support unions but will their numbers be enough to keep our unions afloat? 

Many blue collar workers are moving away from unions because of a lack of perceived progress coming from those organisations which is leading to a decline to membership numbers and of course their power. I honestly doubt that the unions will be powerful enough to push for 'change' as detailed in the article.


----------



## Glad I couldn't help (Jan 22, 2019)

Kevin Fudd said:


> Currently, with the decline in the manufacturing sector, most of Australia's unions are dying. I'm sure that many of those studying social sciences and the like do support unions but will their numbers be enough to keep our unions afloat.


How powerful are the Aussie public sector unions? I think that, especially in the English-speaking World, they are the modern heart of the union movement.


----------



## dunbrine47 (Jan 22, 2019)

> Most people without paid work receive a “participation income”


So that's what the trophy is supposed to evolve into.


----------



## Queen Elizabeth II (Jan 22, 2019)

Humanity will probably be extinct by 2050 tbh.


----------



## ICametoLurk (Jan 22, 2019)

Fagatron said:


> Humanity will probably be extinct by 2050 tbh.


And that's a good thing!


----------



## Kevin Fudd (Jan 22, 2019)

Glad I couldn't help said:


> How powerful are the Aussie public sector unions? I think that, especially in the English-speaking World, they are the modern heart of the union movement.


The unions for blue collars here in Aus are slowly losing their power because the benefits provided by unions must also be applicable to those workers not a part of any union, known as 'scabs'. And since many unions are pretty much doing nothing whilst also charging membership fees, workers wouldn't be that encouraged to stay.

WorkChoices was a set of laws introduced in 2005 by the Howard Government that was heavily opposed by the trade unions and the Australian Labor (sic) Party (ALP) because it stripped away rights for workers. Since the unions were a bit more powerful back then, they managed to get the centre-left ALP elected in 2007.

Because of the change in the Australia's (and the world's) labour market towards a more service-based economy, traditional trade unions aren't seeing many new members come in. Sure, there are a number of unions for professionals, but not many young workers know about the unions and their role in our labour market.

I'd say that the trade unions - as a whole - are just a shell of their former selves.


----------



## Pickle Inspector (Jan 22, 2019)

> Despite the concerns of believers in market incentives, only a relatively small proportion of the population is on the basic income at any given time and hardly anyone stays on it for more than a few years.


I’ll believe that when I see it, especially with autism on the rise.


----------



## Smug Chuckler (Jan 22, 2019)

What kind of real work will be done on the internet? Shitty youtube videos and art?


----------



## oldTireWater (Jan 22, 2019)

Eh, I think genocide is still the easier path.


----------



## Pozzingmyfilthyneghole (Jan 22, 2019)

Fagatron said:


> Humanity will probably be extinct by 2050 tbh.


From your mouth to Satan’s ear.


----------



## gobbogobb (Jan 22, 2019)

So they want a Star trek style economy and government structure.  I mean that's cool and all but even in fake Star trek land that didn't really happen until they figured out a nearly unlimited source of energy and efficient matter to energy conversion. 

You notice what you don't see in fake Star trek Utopia?  Solar panels and wind farms.

Oops I meant energy to matter.


----------



## Ted_Breakfast (Jan 22, 2019)

Ha ha, no seriously, thats's adorable.


----------



## 1864897514651 (Jan 22, 2019)

There is no fucking utopia. Earth will fling into the sun before we reach a utopia on this planet. Saint John did not lie in Revelations. Fuck your credit unions and totalitarian government that terrorizes anyone that does not pay taxes. That shit can all burn in Hell.


----------



## Teri-Teri (Jan 23, 2019)

It would take centuries for humanity to reach the state of utopia.


----------



## DragoonSierra (Jan 23, 2019)

Hes ignoring the fact that all the working class jobs will be replaced by robots putting people out of work. Thats going to be something that needs to be overcome first.


----------



## MarvinTheParanoidAndroid (Jan 23, 2019)

What a load of pie in the sky bullshit.

Karl Marx called & he's suing for copyright infringement.


----------



## BillionBisonBucks (Jan 23, 2019)

I think it's theoretically possible for something like this to exist - We make enough for everyone to live well, etc.

Problem is, if there's humans in administration, there will be corruption. A system like this is _delicate_, and while I agree that eliminating desperation will eliminate most crime, there will always be people that just want to take, and some of them will be ambitious enough to make it into the system. Those people generally aren't criminals, but they're what turn a good system into a shitheap.


----------



## Keystone (Jan 23, 2019)

"Socialist Economist" is one of the biggest oxymorons out there. I'd bet anything this dude is the same garden variety socialist who loves to castigate religion and religious people for their belief in heaven and eternal happiness. This same person will, without a _hint_ of self awareness, proceed to proclaim socialism will make everyone eternally happy through perfect resource distribution and 100% perfect cooperation from every living human; because that's totally realistic.

At the cost of sounding no different than those people who use Harry Potter and [Current Year] media to describe everything, it reminds me of that scene from the first Matrix movie where Smith talks about humans wholesale rejecting the first version of the Matrix that was "perfect" because they innately knew something was not right. Any "utopia" especially a socialist one would have the same outcome. Or that one study on the rats that everyone loves to regurgitate -- even with everything the rats needed they started going bonkers because some part of their brain was telling them _something_ just wasn't right.

Of course any utopia would have to provide enough food for everyone, and well over a century of real world application has shown socialism just can't do that.


----------



## HG 400 (Jan 23, 2019)

Keystone said:


> Of course any utopia would have to provide enough food for everyone, and well over a century of real world application has shown socialism just can't do that.



There's already enough food for everyone if we start killing and eating the parasitic bourgeoisie.


----------



## Jeb-sama (Jan 23, 2019)

The world population is supposed to be around 10+ billion by 2050 and the vast majority of that is going to be third worlders 

Good luck doing anything except working 80 hours a week to protect your extremly competitive and extremely underpaid job in the soon to be cyberpunk hellscape


----------



## ES 148 (Jan 23, 2019)

I give it until about 2082, but he's probably right.


----------



## Glad I couldn't help (Jan 23, 2019)

Smug Chuckler said:


> What kind of real work will be done on the internet? Shitty youtube videos and art?


I think he means telecommuniting and such.



BigRuler said:


> literally not feasible with current technology. large scale energy storage (which is mandatory when using solar and wind power) is way too expensive and inefficient for this to be viable.
> i obviously don't know if this will change by 2050 or not, but neither does the author, and basing your policy recommendations on blind "tech will fix it" optimism is exceptional.


I think he and his other co-bloggers are big proponents of the "Green New Deal", as proposed by Kiwi Farm's favorite Congresscritter, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

Yeah, I'm not optimistic either.


----------



## Secret Asshole (Jan 23, 2019)

This sounds like the story from the guy in like the 20th century who thought work would be gone by 1930. It was actually very rational and well thought out. Then it turns out human greed knows no bounds and doesn't really care about human misery or life.

There will be no Utopias. The upper class will not allow it. There will always be strata. There will always be a boot on your neck. Someone will always want to be better than you. And they will hurt you to do it. They will kill people to do it. They will cheat to do it. Simply because they can say: I am better. You aren't. CEO Pay is at 300%? Make it 400%. Now Make it 500%. Now make it 1000%. We own 99% of the wealth? We need that extra 1% for living space. You have a pleasure boat? I need a fleet of them because I'm better than you. You fly first class? I have a private plane. You live on the Upper West Side? I live in a gated mansion, manned by security 24/7.

Economic collapse? Doesn't matter. I will leave you in ruins and flee to an armored compound with all the beautiful people while you play Mad Max and rebuild the world. And then when you rebuild it, through blood, sweat and tears and generations of your family, I will come down from the mountains and take it from you, because I'm better than you.

So no, there will never be utopia. There won't ever be any justice. No one gets what they deserve, children. This is the story of our history, from now until our end. My suggestion is to fight for what you've got. Never give an inch. Because the second you give something up, they'll come looking to take more until you have nothing.


----------



## queerape (Jan 26, 2019)

I used to have a 30 hour workweek with Monday off, and reduced Friday hours, and it was eye opening. We really do not need the traditional 9-5 by 5 anymore, a lot of that time is just deadweight loss since technology has made working so much faster and efficient. People goof off at work because tasks take less time than they would have been expected to in the past, and it would be better for everyone's mental health, and sleep patterns if we switched to a 4 day work week.


----------



## Just Some Other Guy (Jan 26, 2019)

So absolutely no mention of how to get rid of the greed/corrupt facet of humanity? Will everyone have chips installed by big brother to prevent this?

Why does everyone think people only want power because they need things? Some people just really REALLY like to rule, or just to have more stuff than someone else. How does this utopia solve government corruption? So much government regulation, yet nothing on how that government is ran.

In shot, a super faggy idea conjured up by some super faggy individual.


----------



## Datiko (Jan 27, 2019)

Modern socialists like to put a lot of effort into imagining a Utopia. They never put the effort into reading about the origin of the word.  If they did, they would realize More's original work was taking the piss at the concept.


----------



## Stoneheart (Feb 2, 2019)

Ted_Breakfast said:


> Ha ha, no seriously, thats's adorable.



This doesnt sound suuuuper  utopian. i already have 35 hours a week and 6 weeks paid leave, my bank is a small local Bank(and i get super service).
Facebook is dieing anyway. Smaller service provider are on the rise since they have way less overhead, energie is getting greener,etc.
Sounds alot like future germany without sandpeople and negros.

but i have some problems with this, why is he talking about abolishment of private businesses?


----------



## Alec Benson Leary (Feb 7, 2019)

There is only one way that utopia for all humans can ever exist, and that is when you decide a number of human groups are no longer human because your system requires someone to be disposable. You can see it when you read the words of Hitler and Stalin, and you can hear it directly when you listen to spoiled socjus college kids snidely dismiss the suffering of anyone who hasn't earned their favor. Utopians always, _always_ intend to sacrifice a class of disposables in order to bring about their vision, and they are usually so deluded that they can't even see anything wrong with it enough to hide their intentions.

How will you use social media sandbagging to get people fired from their jobs when everyone is getting a comfortable ubi? How will you ruin the lives of those who disagree when taking their job can't actually ruin their lives? Simple answer: get them kicked off of ubi. You can still call it "universal" because by disagreeing with the state, dissidents obviously don't count as human anymore, right?


----------



## ToroidalBoat (Feb 7, 2019)

No easy access to space travel? Some utopia.


----------



## ZeCommissar (Feb 8, 2019)

There are only two real ways a utopia could happen on Earth.

1. We get access to a source of almost unlimited energy that is easy to capture and store (fusion power)

2. Humanity unites into one purpose. (As in over 90% of earth population). Think of a U.N. that is actually a hegemony over every nation and can control what a nation does. A UN like the federal government and each country as a "state" 

I highly doubt we could unite Earth any other way. 

One single nation just doesn't sound possible unless you want to eliminate certain cultures. Not to mention the difficulty of said nation acquiring the world in the first place.

These two are the only way we will get close to a utopia. Communism/Socialism is definitely not the answer.


----------



## spurger king (Feb 9, 2019)

Keystone said:


> At the cost of sounding no different than those people who use Harry Potter and [Current Year] media to describe everything, it reminds me of that scene from the first Matrix movie where Smith talks about humans wholesale rejecting the first version of the Matrix that was "perfect" because they innately knew something was not right. Any "utopia" especially a socialist one would have the same outcome.



Dostoevsky said something similar in _Notes from Underground._ The main character states that a utopia is impossible because if one ever were to exist, people would be ungrateful, and deliberately smash it to bits simply to exercise their free will. Mark Twain said the same thing about Heaven in _Letters from the Earth, _namely that people have no desire to sit around on clouds playing harps for eternity. 

Maybe the Vikings had it figured out and paradise is an eternity of strife and bloodshed and getting drunk.


----------



## ToroidalBoat (Feb 12, 2019)

ZeCommissar said:


> There are only two real ways a utopia could happen on Earth.


There are people in positions of power with really shitty values who would likely prevent any post-scarcity utopia from coming to be. To them, there's just too much money and power to be had in keeping the world the shitty way it is to give it up.

It may sound "tinfoil hat," but it shouldn't be a big shocker if cheap fusion power is someday discovered, but kept secret by powerful groups like big oil corporations.


----------



## Nacho Man Randy Salsa (Feb 12, 2019)

Utopia is the lifeblood for socialism and communism. Without it no one would ever want to implement such a stupid idea. But to the actual marks that believe this 100 percent, utopia justifies the means.

Who the fuck cares how many people die? Utopia is worth it.


----------



## Kevin Fudd (Feb 13, 2019)

Nacho Man Randy Salsa said:


> Utopia is the lifeblood for socialism and communism. Without it no one would ever want to implement such a stupid idea. But to the actual marks that believe this 100 percent, utopia justifies the means.
> 
> Who the fuck cares how many people die? Utopia is worth it.



Here's a fun quote from 'What's Left?' by Nick Cohen:


> When the British communist historian Eric Hobsbawm was asked if Soviet communism had lived up to its promise of a radiant tomorrow, would the loss of fifteen, twenty million people been justifiable, he replied at once, ‘Yes’.


----------



## Duke Nukem (Jan 8, 2021)

Tootsie Bear said:


> No, human society is too complex and people are too divided over issues that any type of utopia will be impossible to accomplish.


Don't think for one minute that it's not going to stop people from trying, with disastrous results every time.


----------



## Drag-on Knight 91873 (Jan 8, 2021)

gobbogobb said:


> So they want a Star trek style economy and government structure.  I mean that's cool and all but even in fake Star trek land that didn't really happen until they figured out a nearly unlimited source of energy and efficient matter to energy conversion.
> 
> You notice what you don't see in fake Star trek Utopia?  Solar panels and wind farms.
> 
> Oops I meant energy to matter.


As I wrote in the Star Trek thread, Earth Utopia is built on colonies sending them the raw materials to make the replicators and shuttles work. Dilithium doesn't mine itself. I've never seen The Expanse, but from what I hear, it's coming from the same viewpoint.


----------

