# "It's not bad, it's just pretending to be bad, so it's actually good."



## HenryKissiger (Nov 26, 2017)

I can't explain this very well, so here are some made up quotes which _may_ sound familiar. Hopefully they provide enough of hint about what I'm getting at, but there will be more explanation after.

• "Neo Yokio isn't a bad anime, it's just pretending to be bad so it can poke fun at anime tropes. It's actually a good show because of that; you just don't get it."
• "Jim Sterling's 'Videogame Show What I've Done' is just Jim pretending to be retárded, he's not actually retárded, I promise."
• "CinemaSins aren't bad at reviewing movies, they're just pretending to be bad for entertainment purposes."
• "The Angry Video Game Nerd and Gordon Ramsey aren't angry people with potential anger problems, they're just pretending to be angry for the camera because it makes for interesting viewing."
• "This thread isn't poorly conceived or incomprehensible, it's just pretending to be those things to provoke insightful discussion."

I'm thinking 'Poe's Law' describes the things these quotes are referring to, but there must be something more fitting?

For example: a satirical cartoon done well doesn't need to be explained, and usually _most_ people catch on that it's satire, and can appreciate its existence. If a satirical cartoon is done poorly, it's almost no different from being a bad cartoon, and so it's met with mostly criticism.

How long can something pretend to be something else, before it actually becomes that something else? When is "not getting the joke" a disingenuous attempt to criticize something you don't like, and when is it justified? When is "pretend" bad content just bad? Not saying either side is right or wrong - each individual piece of media needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Does anyone understand what I'm talking about? It feels like I've over-complicated something very simple, but I haven't seen open discussion about this.


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## PsychoNerd054 (Nov 26, 2017)

I know exactly what you're talking about! You're talking about the "Oh, that's the creator's intention, so it doesn't necessarily suck that he has to rely on it so much" mentality. I've seen way too many people rely on this shtick for too long to not notice it. What's even worse is when these same people simultaneously take their work way too damned seriously, like they have to make their unfunny review show into a blown up movie series with morals and other shit. *cough* Doug Walker!


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## Jerry_ smith56 (Nov 26, 2017)

HenryKissiger said:


> I can't explain this very well, so here are some made up quotes which _may_ sound familiar. Hopefully they provide enough of hint about what I'm getting at, but there will be more explanation after.
> 
> • "Neo Yokio isn't a bad anime, it's just pretending to be bad so it can poke fun at anime tropes. It's actually a good show because of that; you just don't get it."
> • "Jim Sterling's 'Videogame Show What I've Done' is just Jim pretending to be retárded, he's not actually retárded, I promise."
> ...


This reminds of when ever a lolcow shows up and and makes a fool of themselves suddenly, they proclaim that they were merely pretending to be retarded. Its the exact same situation.


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## Yellow Yam Scam (Nov 26, 2017)

Entry-level irony.


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## From The Uncanny Valley (Nov 26, 2017)

If it's not funny


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## Dr. Tremolo (Nov 26, 2017)

Uh, people still can't get that the Angry Video Game Nerd is just a character? Is it the medium he's in that makes James so unseparable from the AVGN? I just don't get it. By this logic every action movie star is a dangerous mass murderer, nobody is ever so baffled that a movie or TV actor is just pretending. Please, I thought this was over years ago, I mean I remember people in 2008 saying James is a closet furry cause he talks about eating excrement.


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## Deadpool (Nov 26, 2017)

Dr. Tremolo said:


> Uh, people still can't get that the Angry Video Game Nerd is just a character? Is it the medium he's in that makes James so unseparable from the AVGN? I just don't get it. By this logic every action movie star is a dangerous mass murderer, nobody is ever so baffled that a movie or TV actor is just pretending. Please, I thought this was over years ago, I mean I remember people in 2008 saying James is a closet furry cause he talks about eating excrement.


Agreed. All you have to do is watch anything else he's in on cinemassacre to see he's actually really a chill calm guy.


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## Jerry_ smith56 (Nov 26, 2017)

HenryKissiger said:


> • "CinemaSins aren't bad at reviewing movies, they're just pretending to be bad for entertainment purposes."


CinemaSins doesn't review movies at all. Their point is to poke fun at and mock popular films. CinemaSins is a review channel the same way honest trailers is a review channel.


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## Coconut Gun (Nov 26, 2017)

Saying that something is supposed to be bad doesn't make up for the fact that it's still bad.

Your examples suck though, OP.


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## AnOminous (Nov 26, 2017)

HenryKissiger said:


> How long can something pretend to be something else, before it actually becomes that something else?



The only thing you listed that is an exception is Gordon Ramsay.  I don't actually agree with his mode of presentation much, but he knows his shit.  Also, he isn't faking his anger, he's just exaggerating it for effect.  Bad cooking actually does piss him off.  He does the kayfabe for entertainment value, but I think it actually does infuriate him on a visceral level to see food done wrong.

He has a series of very stripped-down "how to food" videos that almost anyone could benefit from watching.

Example:






Two and a half minutes, and if you ever fuck up a steak again, after watching this, it's entirely your fault.

Can you understand why he gets pissed off when people who have shit like this available at their fingertips fuck up anyway?


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## Shokew (Nov 26, 2017)

If your material sucks... IT SUCKS. You better pray it's just bad enough to have fun with, or else you're wasting everyone's time, hence making it just plain sucky.

This is why things like Good Bad or Bad Bad and Good Bad Flicks exist to discuss stuff like this (in film form), for example - at least IMHO.


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## Somsnosa (Nov 26, 2017)

In response to the title, "it's a parody" does not cover ass for the whole product, just like "it's a kids movie" or "it's based on a true story" aren't excuses.
In response to the OP, if you can't divide the character from the person you might have some autism. Have yourself checked. I'm sure your parents will still love you


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## From The Uncanny Valley (Nov 26, 2017)

Dr. Tremolo said:


> Uh, people still can't get that the Angry Video Game Nerd is just a character? Is it the medium he's in that makes James so unseparable from the AVGN? I just don't get it. By this logic every action movie star is a dangerous mass murderer, nobody is ever so baffled that a movie or TV actor is just pretending. Please, I thought this was over years ago, I mean I remember people in 2008 saying James is a closet furry cause he talks about eating excrement.



Kinda like how tards legit believe Nostalgia Critic's SUPER SAAAD PAST.


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## AnOminous (Nov 26, 2017)

Dr. Tremolo said:


> Uh, people still can't get that the Angry Video Game Nerd is just a character?



It's a retarded character, though.  It needed to be retired years ago.


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## Ted_Breakfast (Nov 26, 2017)

The difference lies in the people making the parody. The Lost Skeleton of Cadavra was a passion project made by talented people, and it shows. Sharknado 2 was made by unimaginative dummies and, again, it shows.


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## AnOminous (Nov 26, 2017)

Ted_Breakfast said:


> The difference lies in the people making the parody. The Lost Skeleton of Cadavra was a passion project made by talented people, and it shows. Sharknado 2 was made by unimaginative dummies and, again, it shows.



"So bad it's good" is not something that can usually be done deliberately.  Example:  The Room.  Or most of Ed Wood's works.  So bad it's good is usually a phenomenon that arises accidentally when someone genuinely loves what they're doing, and puts their heart into it, and it still is absolutely horrible and sucks.  And by pure love, it transcends that and is great anyway.


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## Sylvie Paula Paula (Nov 26, 2017)

If you take something so seriously that you forget that the creator's intention was for it to be a parody and you need to be told what it really is, then you probably need to take a step back.


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## MarvinTheParanoidAndroid (Nov 26, 2017)

HenryKissiger said:


> The Angry Video Game Nerd and Gordon Ramsey aren't angry people with potential anger problems



You seriously buy the AVGN act?


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## AnOminous (Nov 26, 2017)

MarvinTheParanoidAndroid said:


> You seriously buy the AVGN act?



I don't think you come up with a character like that and play it convincingly if there's absolutely nothing true about it.


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## RG 448 (Nov 26, 2017)

Sylvie Paula Paula said:


> If you take something so seriously that you forget that the creator's intention was for it to be a parody and you need to be told what it really is, then you probably need to take a step back.


Exactly.  Authorial intent is what defines satire, not whether or not people get the joke.  Satire is the best when large groups of people don’t get it, anyway.  There’s an entire archive of instances where Onion articles are taken seriously and it’s great.


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## Anonimo (Nov 26, 2017)

Depends on who you ask in regards to taking satirical articles seriously. Personally, I'd say it's both funny and pathetic at the same time if you get your news exclusively from a site like _The Onion_ and try to make yourself out to be so informed about hot-button issues.


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## Burgers in the ass (Nov 26, 2017)

Anonimo said:


> Depends on who you ask in regards to taking satirical articles seriously. Personally, I'd say it's both funny and pathetic at the same time if you get your news exclusively from a site like _The Onion_ and try to make yourself out to be so informed about hot-button issues.


What
Does it mean that 40 year old _doesnt_ have spikey hair??


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## Joan Nyan (Nov 27, 2017)

If you like it it's good and if you don't like it it's bad. I wasn't aware you're supposed to do some kind of objective analysis to determine whether or not you like something.


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## parasesama (Nov 27, 2017)

That's not tru





HenryKissiger said:


> For example: a satirical cartoon done well doesn't need to be explained, and usually _most_ people catch on that it's satire, and can appreciate its existence. If a satirical cartoon is done poorly, it's almost no different from being a bad cartoon, and so it's met with mostly criticism.


e.


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## Jewelsmakerguy (Nov 28, 2017)

Let's be honest here, if someone's trying to pass something off that's legitimately bad as "It's good bad, honest!", then it's nothing more than just complete and utter shit. A trainwreck with next to no redeeming qualities or someone who either fucked up in a completely hilarious fashion or tried their damnedest and the product still turned out laughable.

Now if the intention was to actually come off as being bad, then it varies. As mentioned in the thread earlier, AVGN and Gordon both exaggerate (or is a character in AVGN's case), so their badness is in part intentional, so it's a little more forgivable. The problem is when people start applying a similar mentality to both media and people who are legitimately garbage (think lolcows trying to excuse their behavior after a particularly failed trolling attempt). That shit should not be believed in any way to be anything other than legitimate shittines and/or r.etardation.


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## Medici (Dec 7, 2017)

If it stops being entertaining it has no point. Who cares if it makes fun of something? If it's shit it's shit.

example:





There is no joke to this, it's just fucking noise. It's mixed horribly and it's borderline unlistenable. Who cares if he did it on purpose? It's still a shit song. It sucks because the album has some fucking BANGERS on the 2nd half but the album is filled with this budget Death Grips shit.


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## GarthMarenghisDankplace (Dec 12, 2017)

Al Murray (Brit comedian with a 'pub landlord' character) is a great example of this. He started out his character to poke fun at the 'Little Englander' mentality, but it turned out the only folk that found him funny were the  same folk who he was trying to rip on cause they agreed with everything this character said. And now he just does that character to exactly the people he used to mock and any irony has been long since dropped.


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## trueandhonestfan (Dec 13, 2017)

If something is hilariously bad (as in you can laugh about how stupid it is and make it an in joke) then it's fine. One really shitty show my friend and I watch on occasion is Legends of Chaimbarland Heights. It's god awful but it's so bad it's funny. The art and animation are hilariously bad (a lot of animations only have a few frames) and the jokes are so bad it's funny.

Something like Neo Yokio is near irredeemably bad. All the voice acting is awful, it's attempts at humor are just sad, a lot of the dialogue makes little sense because it's written by a some white hipster who's trying to sound like a 90's black stereotype. There is the occasional funny moment that's only funny because it makes little sense and  it's funny for the wrong reasons like  Chris' RANDOM ACCESS HUMOR. The premise of the show has almost nothing to do with the little plot there is, and one of the characters is just there to spout communist nonsense. The show is apparently supposed to be a satire of capitalism but it's just so fucking retarded, and the only thing it covers are cartoony stereotypes of rich people. There is one scene where LGBT nonsense is just shoehorned in so the show seems progressive.
Neo Yokio is worse than Sonichu.

But yeah what you're talking about is a pretty annoying thing. Everyone likes to clain something bad is just satire.


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## pentylspacer2600 (Dec 3, 2018)

i think theirs too much nuance to draw a solid line but honestly i can appreciate shitty content just by thinking of how funny it would be if it was intentional. usually if something is super jarring and completely uninteresting i consider it a bad.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Dec 19, 2018)

OK. David Lynch.

Not all his stuff, more his later output like muholland drive, that one with the fucking rabbits... and the new twin peaks.  I guess it's just because he's got hardcore fans that would buy his shit if he said it was art, but people are willing to jump through some hoops to justify why they actually liked something when they would have hated it from any other creator.


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## Cool kitties club (Dec 19, 2018)

Corbin Dallas Multipass said:


> OK. David Lynch.
> 
> Not all his stuff, more his later output like muholland drive, that one with the fucking rabbits... and the new twin peaks.  I guess it's just because he's got hardcore fans that would buy his shit if he said it was art, but people are willing to jump through some hoops to justify why they actually liked something when they would have hated it from any other creator.


David Lynch is something you watch for intrigue and the spectacle of the strangeness. So if his fans find it intriguing then it works


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## Guts Gets Some (Dec 19, 2018)

AnOminous said:


> I don't think you come up with a character like that and play it convincingly if there's absolutely nothing true about it.



This^. Saying the AVGN is a character is too far. Caricature is closer, I feel.

Notice how the AVGN still talks about James' own past in several episodes, referring it to "I...." and showing actual footage of the past, etc. To be a character means it'd be a wholly separate being, different background, different personality, etc.

He's not. The AVGN is literally just James Rolfe hamming up his anger and doing lame cameo skits from time to time. Nothing more.


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## Corbin Dallas Multipass (Dec 19, 2018)

Cool kitties club said:


> David Lynch is something you watch for intrigue and the spectacle of the strangeness. So if his fans find it intriguing then it works


Well, the Twin Peaks reboot.. thingy was interesting in that it brought together Twin Peaks fans and David Lynch fans.  The Twin Peaks fans didn't like that the new season was nothing like the previous ones and seemed to just be for Lynch to jack himself off about how awesome he is.  The Lynch fans thought the Twin Peaks fans weren't real David Lynch fans.  Some people thought it just wasn't very good, by any objective standard.

But if the existence of fans invalidates an example then I don't think anything here is going to count.  There are enough people to have fans of every stupid thing.


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## Cool kitties club (Dec 19, 2018)

Medici said:


> If it stops being entertaining it has no point. Who cares if it makes fun of something? If it's shit it's shit.
> 
> example:
> 
> ...


*cough cough* Death Grips


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