# Millitias and independent paramillitary training are Constitutional but the FBI thought some of the people doing it were a little too racist



## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

So now there a bunch of invalid laws against it.
*States with Anti-Militia Laws Only (17)*

Alabama. ALA. CODE s 31-2-125.
Arizona. ARIZ. REV. STAT. ANN. s 26-123.
Iowa. IOWA CODE s 29A.31.
Kansas. KAN. STAT. ANN. s 48-203.
Kentucky. KY. REV. STAT. ANN. s 38.440.
Maine. ME. REV. STAT. ANN. tit. 37-B, s 342.2.
Maryland. MD. CODE ANN. art. 65, s 35.           REPEALED.
Massachusetts. MASS. GEN. L. ch. 33, s 129-132.
Minnesota. MINN. STAT. s 624.61.
Mississippi. MISS. CODE ANN. $ 33-1-31.
Nevada. NEV. REV. STAT. s 203-080.
New Hampshire. N.H. REV. STAT. ANN. s 111:15.
North Dakota. N.D. CENT. CODE s 37-01-21.
Texas. TEX. GOV'T CODE ANN. s 431.010.
Washington. WASH. REV. CODE s 38.40.120.
West Virginia. W. VA. CODE s 15-1F-7.
Wyoming. WYO. STAT. s 19-1-106.
*States with Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws Only (17)*

Arkansas. ARK. CODE s 5-71-301 to -303.
California. CAL. PENAL CODE s 11460.
Colorado. COLO. REV. STAT. s 18-9-120.
Connecticut. CONN. GEN. STAT. s 53-206b.
Louisiana. LA. REV. STAT. ANN. s 117.1.
Michigan. MICH. COMP. LAWS s 750.528a.
Missouri. MO. REV. STAT. s 574.070.
Montana. MONT. CODE ANN. s 45-8-109.
Nebraska. NEB. REV. STAT. s 28-1480 to -1482.
New Jersey. N.J. REV. STAT. s 2C:39-14.
New Mexico. N.M. STAT. ANN. s 30-20A-1 to -4.
Oklahoma. OKLA. STAT. ANN. tit. 21, s 1321.10.
Oregon. OR. REV. STAT. s 166.660.
Pennsylvania. 18 PA. CONS. STAT. s 5515.
South Carolina. S.C. CODE ANN. s 16-8-10 to -30.
Tennessee. TENN. CODE ANN. s 39-17-314.
Virginia. VA. CODE ANN. s 18.2-433.1 to -433.3.
*States with Both Anti-Militia and Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws (7)*

Florida. FLA. STAT. ANN. ch. 870.06, 790.29.
Georgia. GA. CODE ANN. ss 38-2-277, 16-11-150 to -152. (Has a central militia though.)
Idaho. IDAHO CODE ss 46-802, 18-8101 to -8105.
Illinois. ILL. REV. STAT. ch. 1805, para. 94-95.
New York. N.Y. MIL. LAW s 240.
North Carolina. N.C. GEN. STAT. ss 127A-151, 14-288.20.
Rhode Island. R.I. GEN. LAWS ss 30-12-7, 11-55-1 to -3.
(Note how Idaho is one of the few states to have restrictions on both- likely because of the Ruby Ridge incident.)

Even based Texas fell victim to this- in 1987, 6 years before the Waco siege.

Here is a good article on this. http://constitution.org/mil/ustx_law.htm

Needless to say, this shit is super gay.

Backing extremist groups into a corner and making them go underground (so they're harder to monitor) is always a bad idea and I don't know why people haven't figured this out yet.


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## whatever I feel like (Mar 9, 2019)

Thank you for the conspiracy theorist link, there's some vintage shit in there.



> The Patriot Page — Extensive documentation. See especially the mysterious deaths associated with Bill Clinton.


????


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

Lou Wrong said:


> Thank you for the conspiracy theorist link, there's some vintage shit in there.
> 
> ????


The dude said nothing wrong there though.


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## Coconut Gun (Mar 9, 2019)

The constitution means what the government says it means. For more information, see: The continual chipping away of the 2nd amendment, the 4th being ignored when it's inconvenient, and the 14th being interpreted to mean literally whatever the fuck you want.


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## Tranhuviya (Mar 9, 2019)

That's why we need militia training. So that the government can't just waltz in and take our rights away from us.


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## Your Weird Fetish (Mar 9, 2019)

Kiwi militia when?


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## Piss Clam (Mar 9, 2019)

So I went to look at the Georgia code and could not find it.

I also would like to state that GA has an active state sponsored militia.









						Georgia State Defense Force - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




I then went to look up the Maryland code, and find that the code has been repealed.

I'm not sure just exactly what you are trying to say here. Could you clarify.

If you are trying to say the FBI does not recognize the constitutionality of militias then I would point out that they already got thier ass kicked via the Michigan militia.









						Conspiracy charges dropped against Mich. militia
					

A federal judge dismissed the most serious charges Tuesday against seven members of a Michigan militia.



					www.nbcnews.com


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## IV 445 (Mar 9, 2019)

What is militia training besides guys going to the range on weekends?


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## QU 734 (Mar 9, 2019)

Hortator said:


> What is militia training besides guys going to the range on weekends?



Going innawoods, c-rations and pallets of .22 long.


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## whatever I feel like (Mar 9, 2019)

Piss Clam said:


> So I went to look at the Georgia code and could not find it.
> 
> I also would like to state that GA has an active state sponsored militia.
> 
> ...


He's trying to tell us that Lyndon Larouche was an American saint and his passing is mourned.


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## Tranhuviya (Mar 9, 2019)

Hortator said:


> What is militia training besides guys going to the range on weekends?


There's more to being a good soldier than that. Fieldcraft, for example.


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## Lemmingwise (Mar 9, 2019)

Wait what does it matter if people are trained or not? I thought it was guns that killed people, not people!?


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## deodorant (Mar 9, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> Kiwi militia when?



I'll assume the role of David Koresh


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

Piss Clam said:


> I'm not sure just exactly what you are trying to say here. Could you clarify.


What is there to clarify

Good on Georgia and Maryland though


Lou Wrong said:


> He's trying to tell us that Lyndon Larouche was an American saint and his passing is mourned.


t.subhuman britbong


Hortator said:


> What is militia training besides guys going to the range on weekends?


JO Crystal optimization.


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## Red Hood (Mar 9, 2019)

Tranhuviya said:


> There's more to being a good soldier than that. Fieldcraft, for example.


Can I substitute Minecraft for fieldcraft?


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

Why the fuck did I spell "militias" with two "l's" when I first made this.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

Also, a sidenote, I was reading a book that said 17 states have enacted anti-paramillitary training laws and that book was published in 1990 so it's not like these were recent; they've been pretty consistent. Most of these laws were passed in 80's which is odd because the most egrigious acts of militia violence occured in the 90's (and that was when the militia movement had the most traction). Is there a correlation? Maybe.


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## 1Tonka_Truck (Mar 9, 2019)

Here is WY updated law:


> 19-8-104. Other organizations parading with arms prohibited; penalty.
> (a) No group or assembly of persons other than the regularly organized national guard or the troops of the United States shall associate themselves together as a military company or organization, or parade in public with arms without license of the governor. No city or town shall raise or appropriate monies for arming, equipping, uniforming or in any way supporting, sustaining or providing drill rooms or armories for such group or assembly of persons.​


I want somebody to define 'military organization.' At what point does it move from a group of friends training out in the desert to an illegal military organization? Unit patch, uniforms, ranks? I wonder how hard it would be to obtain a licences from the governor's office. Now I really want a lolbertarian to bring a complaint alleging that PD SWAT teams are a military organizations violating this statue.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

1Tonka_Truck said:


> I want somebody to define 'military organization.' At what point does it move from a group of friends training out in the desert to an illegal military organization? Unit patch, uniforms, ranks? I wonder how hard it would be to obtain a licences from the governor's office. Now I really want a lolbertarian to bring a complaint alleging that PD SWAT teams are a military organizations violating this statue.


It's not really enforced at all so it doesn't really matter. Unless, of course, the Southern Poverty Law center wants to shit on some racists for the millionth time. Then it's illegal.


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## Emperor Julian (Mar 9, 2019)

So are any of these militia groups viable combat units or are they just a bunch of cranks living out in the woods?


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 9, 2019)

Emperor Julian said:


> So are any of these militia groups viable combat units or are they just a bunch of cranks living out in the woods?


The most significant ones were made by vets, even a Green Beret (talking about the ones who make these laws seem justified because they're political radicals and are connected to crimes)

So, yes, some are. Probably not most though.


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## HG 400 (Mar 9, 2019)

The states are just regulating the militias well, as demanded by the second amendment. How is this unconstitutional?


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## Slap47 (Mar 10, 2019)

Dynastia said:


> The states are just regulating the militias well, as demanded by the second amendment. How is this unconstitutional?



Yeah, I'm pretty sure the original point of having militas was so that the states could protect themselves (from Indians, bandits and slaves) and challenge the federal government. The states really hated paying for a federal army of professional soldiers so they had a system where everybody just sent a bunch of shitty militas in time of crisis.


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## RoofGook (Mar 10, 2019)

90% of those militias are made up of feds. The feds in the militias dont even know that everyone in the militia they’re in is a fed.


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## Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost (Mar 10, 2019)

Apoth42 said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure the original point of having militas was so that the states could protect themselves (from Indians, bandits and slaves) and challenge the federal government. The states really hated paying for a federal army of professional soldiers so they had a system where everybody just sent a bunch of shitty militas in time of crisis.



When it was added it was meant as a way to say that a state could have it's own trained militias ready to be used, as that point in time America did not have any semblance of a permanent army. 

By the time of the civil war, the states militia system was used by secessionist as means of preceding the creation of the confederacy, because ultimately the US of today back then actually was mean to recognise states rights over federal edict. 

When the Confederacy lost the war, it essentially meant that the federal system would supersede states rights, and active state militias from that time forward were actively discouraged.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 10, 2019)

Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost said:


> When it was added it was meant as a way to say that a state could have it's own trained militias ready to be used, as that point in time America did not have any semblance of a permanent army.
> 
> By the time of the civil war, the states militia system was used by secessionist as means of preceding the creation of the confederacy, because ultimately the US of today back then actually was mean to recognise states rights over federal edict.
> 
> When the Confederacy lost the war, it essentially meant that the federal system would supersede states rights, and active state militias from that time forward were actively discouraged.


That is not the sole reason.

It's abundantly clear that the Founding Fathers believed that if the government became tyrannical, the people have the right to overthrow it. That is the primary purpose for the militias.


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## Your Weird Fetish (Mar 10, 2019)

Dynastia said:


> The states are just regulating the militias well, as demanded by the second amendment. How is this unconstitutional?


In the language of the time "well regulated" meant "efficient" not "under heavy oversight and restriction".


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## HG 400 (Mar 11, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> In the language of the time "well regulated" meant "efficient" not "under heavy oversight and restriction".



And in the language of the time "Arms" meant pikes and muskets, not AR-15's,


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## DragoonSierra (Mar 11, 2019)

Welp, time to start my anti-paramilitary paramilitary


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## Cool kitties club (Mar 11, 2019)

Coconut Gun said:


> The constitution means what the government says it means. For more information, see: The continual chipping away of the 2nd amendment, the 4th being ignored when it's inconvenient, and the 14th being interpreted to mean literally whatever the fuck you want.


The living constitution basically means you magic anything out of it you want as long as you put enough boiler plating on it.
Moldbug on the consitution:


> Nonetheless, the drafters wrought better than they knew. The practice of drafting laws which are vague to the point of meaninglessness, then empowering “judges” to “interpret” them, is simply another way of abolishing politics. Congress legislates this way all the time. All they are doing is transferring the power of legislation to a more private body, which is not subject to public scrutiny and the other painful woes of politics. The great thing about the gay marriage decision is that no one in California has any idea who made it. I think there are nine people on the California Supreme Court. Who are they? How did they get their jobs? Who the heck knows? No one seems to care at all.
> 
> The US Constitution was the first and greatest offender in this department. Its drafters did not even agree on such basic matters as whether a state could leave the Union. In practice, it made the Supreme Court the supreme legislative assembly, which over the last 200 years (mostly over the last 50) has created a body of decisions, perfectly comparable to Britain’s unwritten constitution, that we call constitutional law. The idea that this legislative corpus can be derived in some mystical, yet automatic, way from the text of the Constitution is preposterous, and no one holds it.





Dynastia said:


> And in the language of the time "Arms" meant pikes and muskets, not AR-15's,


Mfw the Kiwi militia uses cannons and muskets to wage war against the us government


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## Emperor Julian (Mar 11, 2019)

So what's the plan for these guy when the US goverment brings in the stealth bombers?


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## AF 802 (Mar 11, 2019)

Anyone up for a militia to take out the (((Rothschild))) types?


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## Your Weird Fetish (Mar 11, 2019)

Dynastia said:


> And in the language of the time "Arms" meant pikes and muskets, not AR-15's,


No, there were already primitive rifles and even some very crude attempts at automatic weapons around though the founders almost certainly hadn't heard of the latter since they didn't really work and never went anywhere. Still, go ahead and pretend that a group of people including Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson thought weapons technology would remain 100% static forever.

Also I'd pay good money to see someone try to open carry a zweihander and musket in any major city in the US.



Emperor Julian said:


> So what's the plan for these guy when the US goverment brings in the stealth bombers?


If the US goes full China at Tianenmen square and the soldiers given these orders actually carry them out then obviously it's way too late. The idea is to keep it from getting there in the first place.


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## Terrorist (Mar 11, 2019)

I'll never forgive those fanooks in the FBI for destroying one of the oldest, proudest militias in the USA. Well-regulated? Fuhgeddaboutit, that shit was _self_-regulating, it pulled ruby ridges on itself. Racial profiling of Italians remains an unfortunate blight upon our society.


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## HG 400 (Mar 11, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> No, there were already primitive rifles and even some very crude attempts at automatic weapons around though the founders almost certainly hadn't heard of the latter since they didn't really work and never went anywhere. Still, go ahead and pretend that a group of people including Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson thought weapons technology would remain 100% static forever.



I'm not pretending that, I think they assumed future Americans would be smart enough to amend the constitution as technology evolves, instead of stubbornly insisting _"A bunch of old dead guys support my right to own an AR-15 even though they never saw anything more dangerous than a Kentucky Long Rifle."_ If you're going to take the founding fathers that literally why hasn't it been ruled unconstitutional that the government stops you from freely own nuclear missiles and weaponised glanders?


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 11, 2019)

(((((Fagnasty)))))


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## Your Weird Fetish (Mar 11, 2019)

Dynastia said:


> I'm not pretending that, I think they assumed future Americans would be smart enough to amend the constitution as technology evolves, instead of stubbornly insisting _"A bunch of old dead guys support my right to own an AR-15 even though they never saw anything more dangerous than a Kentucky Long Rifle."_ If you're going to take the founding fathers that literally why hasn't it been ruled unconstitutional that the government stops you from freely own nuclear missiles and weaponised glanders?


Unironically why indeed?

It was perfectly legal to own automatic weapons up to and including gatling guns until partway through the 20th century and the nation didn't self destruct in an orgy of violence.


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## HG 400 (Mar 11, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> Unironically why indeed?
> 
> It was perfectly legal to own automatic weapons up to and including gatling guns until partway through the 20th century and the nation didn't self destruct in an orgy of violence.



If AR-15's needed a two-horse limber to drag them into schoolyards you probably wouldn't be averaging over one mass shooting a day. Just sayin'.


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## Your Weird Fetish (Mar 11, 2019)

Dynastia said:


> If AR-15's needed a two-horse limber to drag them into schoolyards you probably wouldn't be averaging over one mass shooting a day. Just sayin'.


Oh we absolutely would. Americans just really like killing people compared to the rest of the western world.


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## JektheDumbass (Mar 12, 2019)

It was illegal to carry guns in most cities until recently.  The only "gun control" laws passed are based purely on minor cosmetic features and are passed to give gun manufacturers a boost in sales because you morons buy out the stores every time they pass something.  The NRA exists to lobby for gun manufacturers, they don't give the slightest shit about gun owners 

Also you don't form militias because you love niggers, I'm just saying.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 12, 2019)

JektheDumbass said:


> The only "gun control" laws passed are based purely on minor cosmetic features and are passed to give gun manufacturers a boost in sales because you morons buy out the stores every time they pass something. The NRA exists to lobby for gun manufacturers,


Lol, how WOKE


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## Your Weird Fetish (Mar 12, 2019)

Well, he's not entirely wrong.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 12, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> Well, he's not entirely wrong.


He is a dumbass Jek


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## millais (Mar 12, 2019)

I think the vast majority of people don't really care about it enough to put votes behind a pushback effort. In reading the old accounts and historical texts, it seems like in the 19th century, municipal and state militias were a big focal point of civic/community pride, with people chipping in with subscriptions and donations to help outfit and equip the unit, even if they weren't a member themself. Every town and village had their company of volunteers that would assemble every so often to drill and present themselves for service at times of trouble. 

Now the people of this country have transferred that same need for civic and community pride over to their high school football team and donate the big money to build a bigger stadium and buy new football helmets.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 12, 2019)

millais said:


> donate the big money to build a bigger stadium and buy new


And cover up sexual assault allegations. #woke


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## ProgKing of the North (Mar 13, 2019)

I support the right of the people to form militias

I'm iffy on if I'd want the people who would actually form militias to form militias.


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## Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost (Mar 14, 2019)

Tard Baby said:


> That is not the sole reason.
> 
> It's abundantly clear that the Founding Fathers believed that if the government became tyrannical, the people have the right to overthrow it. That is the primary purpose for the militias.



Yes that is true, and it is the exact same rhetoric that the South used in order to fuel the secessionist movement. They majority of southerners who did not own slaves saw secession and the start of the civil war as a second American revolution. 

The denouement of the militia movement came about during the and the civil war period and then fell into obscurity as the more professional US army took a more prominent role. The last great hurrah of voluntarily equipped "militias" was the Spanish American War. From that point they have fallen into obscurity in terms of being part of normal American civil life.  



millais said:


> I think the vast majority of people don't really care about it enough to put votes behind a pushback effort. In reading the old accounts and historical texts, it seems like in the 19th century, municipal and state militias were a big focal point of civic/community pride, with people chipping in with subscriptions and donations to help outfit and equip the unit, even if they weren't a member themself. Every town and village had their company of volunteers that would assemble every so often to drill and present themselves for service at times of trouble.
> 
> Now the people of this country have transferred that same need for civic and community pride over to their high school football team and donate the big money to build a bigger stadium and buy new football helmets.



It really was a debarkation from the pioneer period to the settled phases in the US that caused this, as well as the expansion of federalism and the loss of territorial competition and expansion that had punctuated the 1800's in the US. The reason I say this is think about the early pioneers, if you wanted something in an unsettled land then you had two options, you either created it, or you waited, and most of the pioneers weren't the waiting type of people.

As such the creation of community societies which also reinforced civic society were really collectively strong, especially in families that had been part of the initial groups of settlers. You have to think about the connection you would make with groups of relative strangers after six to seven months of journeying together, even if you didn't particularly like them, would give you and them a shared experience and a closer connection.

The idea of "Small Town USA" is either idealized or denigrated, but it really is just an extension of the idea of communal and civic society. Less emphasis is placed on militias now, or aspects of voluntary civic society because of the intrusion of big government in both realms, and a loss of localized pride.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 14, 2019)

Kaiser Wilhelm's Ghost said:


> and it is the exact same rhetoric that the South used in order to fuel the secessionist movement. They majority of southerners who did not own slaves saw secession and the start of the civil war as a second American revolution.


And that is why they were based.


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## Brooklyn Red Leg (Mar 19, 2019)

Dynastia said:


> And in the language of the time "Arms" meant pikes and muskets, not AR-15's,



The Giradoni 20-shot Air Rifle would beg to differ. As would the Cannon and Cavalry requirements for The Militia Act of 1792. And the privately owned warships that were recognized as part of the Letters of Marque & Reprisal.  Hell, even the 20th Century's Miller SCOTUS ruling says "only weapons useful for militia service", so everything up to and including heavy infantry weapons, tanks, AIFVs, fighter jets, etc. Arms means just that: weapons equal to that carried by the Marine Corps & Navy (the Standing Army having only supposed to be a 2-year deal).


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## ICametoLurk (Mar 22, 2019)

It's quite clear what needs to happen. The Militias need to take over the States and change the laws.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Mar 23, 2019)

JektheDumbass said:


> It was illegal to carry guns in most cities until recently.  The only "gun control" laws passed are based purely on minor cosmetic features and are passed to give gun manufacturers a boost in sales because you morons buy out the stores every time they pass something.  The NRA exists to lobby for gun manufacturers, they don't give the slightest shit about gun owners
> 
> Also you don't form militias because you love niggers, I'm just saying.


Your username is apt.


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## CensorshipNeverWorks (Mar 23, 2019)

Remember Waco?  Supposedly they were collecting weapons and forming their own little militia.

ATF trapped them and shot anyone that tried to escape, let the entire compound burn to the ground, with women and children inside.  Regardless of who started the fire (The ATF did IMO, there are videos with what appears to be APCs ramming the building then you see flames from flamethrowers), the fact they shot dead anyone that tried to get out is a major red flag.

The biggest red flag is how they were just some rifles and not many people... yet the ATF called in Abrams tanks and mechanized infantry.

For the threat of a Militia forming.  Literally the first words in the second amendment.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## The best and greatest (Mar 23, 2019)

Tranhuviya said:


> That's why we need militia training. So that the government can't just waltz in and take our rights away from us.


I never really understood this obsession with armed militias protecting our freedoms from government tyranny. The idea a bunch of soft, pot-bellied Americans with their Walmart consumer grade M16s are going to fare any better against the US military than starving middle eastern youths accustomed to a life of violence and war and are very much willing to die for what they believe in is frankly laughable.


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## Equivocal_Iki (Mar 23, 2019)

Haven't read the thread. But after listening to both left-wing and right-wing radio, there's an odd disconnect. Left-wingers love to bring up COINTELPRO while right-wingers are silent on it. Wonder what the progressives' take on this is.


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## BlueSpark (Mar 23, 2019)

The best and greatest said:


> I never really understood this obsession with armed militias protecting our freedoms from government tyranny. The idea a bunch of soft, pot-bellied Americans with their Walmart consumer grade M16s are going to fare any better against the US military than starving middle eastern youths accustomed to a life of violence and war and are very much willing to die for what they believe in is frankly laughable.


You mean the starving middle eastern youths that the US has failed to quell for the last two decades? Just like they failed in Vietnam. Don't underestimate militias; it's a lot harder to wipe out people who don't paint a target on themselves by wearing a uniform.


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## The best and greatest (Mar 23, 2019)

BlueSpark said:


> failed to quell


That's a funny way to spell "actively supported."

Funny how these groups always seem to make gains until it comes out that we've been backing them all along.

Few(if any) rebellions ever succeed without a patron. Such activities don't fund themselves.


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## Brooklyn Red Leg (Mar 23, 2019)

The Babylon Bee proves, beyond a doubt, that its almost impossible to tell the difference between parody and real life now.


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## Y2K Baby (Mar 23, 2019)

Equivocal_Iki said:


> Haven't read the thread. But after listening to both left-wing and right-wing radio, there's an odd disconnect. Left-wingers love to bring up COINTELPRO while right-wingers are silent on it. Wonder what the progressives' take on this is.


Fuck COINTELPRO.


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## Y2K Baby (Apr 14, 2019)

Here is something interesting I learned recently.

The popular consensus about Waco is that the Branch Davidsons burnt the whole thing to the ground, right? But an analysis of the dead bodies showed that most had died from self-inflicted gun wounds. Why would they light the place on fire if they were all just shooting themselves?

The CS gas the FBI used in trying to smoke the place out (using mustard gas to smoke kids out, lol) was fucking flammable. Maybe it was ignited by the gunshots. Point is that them starting the fire intentionally is unlikely. 

The best part is that this wouldn't have even been the first time something like this would have happened. In 1983, the FBI went after the Posse Comitatus in North Dakota. They threw a smoke grenade and it ignited a bunch of munitions cases. Knowing shit like that has happened, why do it again in what was supposedly a hostage situation (despite basically everyone there staying by choice)? Why risk setting a bunch of kids on fire? Sounds like plausible deniability to me.

There was no investigation into this and the FBI denied any role in creating the fire. ?


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## Your Weird Fetish (Apr 15, 2019)

The best and greatest said:


> That's a funny way to spell "actively supported."
> 
> Funny how these groups always seem to make gains until it comes out that we've been backing them all along.
> 
> Few(if any) rebellions ever succeed without a patron. Such activities don't fund themselves.


Surely no one on Earth would have any interests in backing subversive activities in a universally loved nation like the USA.


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## The best and greatest (Apr 15, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> Surely no one on Earth would have any interests in backing subversive activities in a universally loved nation like the USA.


In either case, your success is predicated on the support of a state-power, and not on your personal gun ownership.


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## Dante Alighieri (Apr 15, 2019)

The best and greatest said:


> In either case, your success is predicated on the support of a state-power, and not on your personal gun ownership.


So we shouldn't bother with gun ownership and just let the government fuck us. Gotcha.


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## Your Weird Fetish (Apr 15, 2019)

The best and greatest said:


> In either case, your success is predicated on the support of a state-power, and not on your personal gun ownership.


It's both.


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## Y2K Baby (Apr 15, 2019)

Funny how the FBA is super competent except in conspiracy and domestic terrorist cases where they make all sorts of forensic, analytical, and tactical errors.  ?


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## The best and greatest (Apr 16, 2019)

DanteAlighieri said:


> So we shouldn't bother with gun ownership and just let the government fuck us. Gotcha.


I mean you said it not me....Frankly I don't really advocate much in the way of gun control, there are lots of legitimate reasons for gun ownership and many of the places I aspire to live in will probably require it on my part. I just don't get on with the idea of gun ownership as a means to counter government tyranny. I think how it's played out in real life has shown that the gov can take your rights well before they've taken your guns and most of us will do fuck all about it. Its an ego trip. A delusion played on the masses by the government to give you some illusion of control that isn't actually there.


Your Weird Fetish said:


> It's both.


Maybe. Depending on your patron you might honestly get weapons that are better than yours anyway. Honestly the cultural zeitgeist of the citizen patriot freedom-fighter is probably a better defense of your rights than those very people put into action would be.


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## Your Weird Fetish (Apr 16, 2019)

The best and greatest said:


> Honestly the cultural zeitgeist of the citizen patriot freedom-fighter is probably a better defense of your rights than those very people put into action would be.


Yeah so please stop arguing against one of the central pillars of that, it hurts the optics.


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## The best and greatest (Apr 16, 2019)

Your Weird Fetish said:


> Yeah so please stop arguing against one of the central pillars of that, it hurts the optics.


I don't know what to tell you. It's not my fault time and technology have rendered one of the protective principles of our democracy economically/politically unfeasible. Life is full of uncomfortable realities. Tbh if you REALLY felt this strongly about the issue I'd say you should consider dissolving the standing army and re-instituting the state militias as a strong standing army under the control of the central authority de jure is probably the biggest threat to your liberty full stop.


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## Your Weird Fetish (Apr 17, 2019)

I still think you underestimate the effectiveness of asymmetric resistance in a war where the major power isn't all that morally committed to finishing in the first place. But this won't actually come up for a very long time if at all in this context.


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