# Simulated reality



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Some of you here might be familiar with the Simulated Reality Theory, which states that this universe is being rendered either by something external (or what I prose it is rendering itself).
Here is the thing, yes that is most likely what our universe is, a computer that is sort of a living organism, but here is the thing and bare with me on this ...

I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.
I have been wondering about this for some time now and the more I think about it the more likely it seems.
Here is the truth, within 20 to 50 years there will be technology released to the public that will forever transform human civilization and alter the human state, people will become merged with technology, some literally though BCI (brain to computer interface) technology and others (the majority) though augmented reality and virtual reality.
With all that said, the technology and means to manipulate reality exist, and with that being the case then humanity should have destroyed itself by now, any other living civilization in the universe should have as well.
Either we are all consumed by some all-power A.I. god or control grid or humans destroy their reality in the race to achieve god-like status.
So what is holding this reality together?
I think that for any single reality there can only be one person actually alive inside of it, or, I'm inside some VR prison that is being run by a machine in the "real reality" that is being controlled by an ASI god/control grid.


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## byuu (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.


Sounds like you lack a Theory of Mind.


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## Recoil (Apr 23, 2019)

That's an insanely self centered point of view. None of us are that important and making the statement you're making indicates an inability to connect with others on your part long before it does your starring role on any Truman Shows.

The only "simulation theory" with any credibility is one that's been known to shamans, saints and mystics throughout human history: You're a spiritual being having a temporary human experience. You're here to allow the universe to experience itself through you. Your mission is to learn as much as possible and self actualize, in that order. Your body is the incubator for your soul, which grows denser and more vibrant as you overcome obstacles and realize your potential. Your species is an idea generating engine designed to transform reality and itself through culture, technology and evolution.

It's a simulation in the sense that you shouldn't take it too seriously - learn to look beyond it all, at the greater truths hidden between the lines of the reality around you.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

garakfan69 said:


> Sounds like you lack a Theory of Mind.



Think about it (if your programming allows you that ability).
If this world is run by satanic blood thirsty reptilians with access to technology that can manipulate the fabric of reality, then what the fuck is holding things together and why haven't we all disappeared into dust by now.


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## byuu (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> If this world is run by satanic blood thirsty reptilians with access to technology that can manipulate the fabric of reality, then what the fuck is holding things together and why haven't we all disappeared into dust by now.


But what is holding the satanic blood thirsty reptilians together?


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

garakfan69 said:


> But what is holding the satanic blood thirsty reptilians together?



Lets assume that this reality is an MMORPG like Recon believes, then why don't they just create a full-immersion reality universe that's private to live in, why live here on a shitty planet full of "useless eaters".
Things don't add up.
That only thing that makes sense is that I'm in FIVR right now.


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## Recoil (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Lets assume that this reality is an MMORPG like Recon believes, then why don't they just create a full-immersion reality universe that's private to live in, why live here on a shitty planet full of "useless eaters".
> Things don't add up.
> That only thing that makes sense is that I'm in FIVR right now.


Did you read the Interface Series, yet?
You need to read that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/9M9H9E9/wiki/narrative


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## VIVIIXI (Apr 23, 2019)

I'll take "What is solipsism" for 500, Alex!


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## Doc Cassidy (Apr 23, 2019)

The matrix theory makes a surprising amount of sense but you're misunderstanding it. According to the original theory all of existence is a simulation. I'll even go ahead and post the original thesis to help you.

Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum, a question I know none of you will be able to answer. 'A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"'

I look forward to the answer of anyone reading this. Here's your chance, explain why we even exist. I also highly recommend anyone who hasn't read the original essay to do so because it's quite fascinating. I know you likely struggle with the academic tone but I'll be happy to help explain it to you if you ask. I'm always happy to share my incredible knowledge.


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## Recoil (Apr 23, 2019)

"Why is there some


Doc Cassidy said:


> The matrix theory makes a surprising amount of sense but you're misunderstanding it. According to the original theory all of existence is a simulation. I'll post the original thesis.
> 
> Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum that will never be answered. A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"
> 
> I look forward to the answer of anyone reading this. Here's your chance, explain why we even exist.


"Why is there something instead of nothing?"

Yes. That's why.


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## KittyGremlin (Apr 23, 2019)

what if we're all in the head of some god trippin on lsd


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Recon said:


> Did you read the Interface Series, yet?
> You need to read that.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/9M9H9E9/wiki/narrative



Is there a PDF?
I might read it eventually ...

Anyways about what you were saying, that's just another interpretation of the simulated reality theory.
The thing is that the word simulation can be misunderstood, so maybe we should stop saying "simulated reality".
This reality is being rendered, something exists outside of it, what is it.



Doc Cassidy said:


> The matrix theory makes a surprising amount of sense but you're misunderstanding it. According to the original theory all of existence is a simulation. I'll even go ahead and post the original thesis to help you.
> 
> Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum that will never be answered. A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"
> 
> I look forward to the answer of anyone reading this. Here's your chance, explain why we even exist. I also highly recommend anyone who hasn't read the original essay to do so because it's quite fascinating.



All right mr. glow in the dark, I'll participate in your psychological experiment.
I'll report back to you after reading that PDF.


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## Shaved Kiwis (Apr 23, 2019)

Seeing as how this is the only reality that we know and seeing as how we don't get access to the console so we can't spawn cool shit or toggle cheats it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Plus we can never actually know for sure so this whole thing will always be purely philosophical. 

Also what makes you think that you're so special? Remember Blade Runner? You wouldn't make for a very compelling NPC if you knew you were fake...


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Ohhhh Nick Bostrom I remember watching videos/interviews of this guy.
This should be interesting, arigatou.



Shaved Kiwis said:


> Seeing as how this is the only reality that we know and seeing as how we don't get access to the console so we can't spawn cool shit or toggle cheats it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Plus we can never actually know for sure so this whole thing will always be purely philosophical. Also what makes you think that you're so special? Remember Blade Runner? You wouldn't make for a very compelling NPC if you knew you were fake...



We're like inside of something like Gmod or Minecraft, you can hack the world from within.


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## Kamiii (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Some of you here might be familiar with the Simulated Reality Theory, which states that this universe is being rendered either by something external (or what I prose it is rendering itself).
> Here is the thing, yes that is most likely what our universe is, a computer that is sort of a living organism, but here is the thing and bare with me on this ...
> 
> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.
> ...


_
"In a paper published in the journal Science Advances, Zohar Ringel and Dmitry Kovrizhi show that constructing a computer simulation of a particular quantum phenomenon that occurs in metals is impossible – not just practically, but in principle."_





						Physicists find we’re not living in a computer simulation | Cosmos
					

The sci-fi trope might now be put to rest after scientists find the suggestion that reality is computer generated is in principle impossible, writes Andrew




					cosmosmagazine.com


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> _"In a paper published in the journal Science Advances, Zohar Ringel and Dmitry Kovrizhi show that constructing a computer simulation of a particular quantum phenomenon that occurs in metals is impossible – not just practically, but in principle."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmao bringing up shit like this is like being an NPC in 2002 saying that there wouldn't be virtual reality or artificial intelligence for hundreds or thousands of years.
It's extremely naive thinking.
You need to smoke some weed and go watch Serial Experiments Lain a few times.


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## Doc Cassidy (Apr 23, 2019)

Recon said:


> Yes. That's why.


Your link doesn't work WHAT THE FUCK


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## Kamiii (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> lmao bringing up shit like this is like being an NPC in 2002 saying that there wouldn't be virtual reality or artificial intelligence for hundreds or thousands of years.


How so?


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> How so?



Because you're thinking that some civilization that spawned from a planet creates a machine capable of running this reality and that's not it, you can't get it because you're coming at this from the perspective/consciousness of a 20th century NPC.
Reality itself is the machine and the software, there are no limits to what it can render within this illusion.


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## Shaved Kiwis (Apr 23, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> _"In a paper published in the journal Science Advances, Zohar Ringel and Dmitry Kovrizhi show that constructing a computer simulation of a particular quantum phenomenon that occurs in metals is impossible – not just practically, but in principle."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dang, between this and finding out that dinosaur DNA breaks down after like 50 thousand years (even in amber) I'm really starting to get worried about the potential for a sentient AI to cause a nuclear holocaust and create badass cyborgs to fight a war with the remnants of humanity.



Hikikomori-Yume said:


> lmao bringing up shit like this is like being an NPC in 2002 saying that there wouldn't be virtual reality or artificial intelligence for hundreds or thousands of years.
> It's extremely naive thinking.
> You need to smoke some weed and go watch Serial Experiments Lain a few times.




You need to smoke less weed dudebro. Googling stuff must not be part of your NPC interaction loop. VR has been around in one form or another since before you were born. https://www.pcmag.com/feature/343351/the-wacky-world-of-vr-in-the-80s-and-90s

Besides, If you really wanna free your mind LSD is where it's at.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Shaved Kiwis said:


> Dang, between this and finding out that dinosaur DNA breaks down after like 50 thousand years (even in amber) I'm really starting to get worried about the potential for a sentient AI to cause a nuclear holocaust and create badass cyborgs to fight a war with the remnants of humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes I'm aware of all of that and that's not what I was getting at


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## byuu (Apr 23, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> _"In a paper published in the journal Science Advances, Zohar Ringel and Dmitry Kovrizhi show that constructing a computer simulation of a particular quantum phenomenon that occurs in metals is impossible – not just practically, but in principle."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow this is such a horrible piece of "scientific" "journalism".
The paper doesn't say that at all. It just says it can't be computed in polynomial time using QMC, i.e. not practical but possible in principle.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

garakfan69 said:


> Wow this is such a horrible piece of "scientific" "journalism".
> The paper doesn't say that at all. It just says it can't be computed in polynomial time using QMC, i.e. not practical but possible in principle.



Exactly
You can't trust anything a human says because you're all NPCs stuck in the stone ages.
Goddamn fucking watch Serial Experiments Lain.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.



I unironically believe you've got some sort of developmental disorder and should stop embarassing yourself every time you make a thread.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Varg Did Nothing Wrong said:


> I unironically believe you've got some sort of developmental disorder and should stop embarassing yourself every time you make a thread.



Reactionary NPC, they appear every single time.


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## The Crow (Apr 23, 2019)

@Hikikomori-Yume Do you believe that virtual reality is a jewish invention meant to distract the white race with hedonistic pleasure in an attempt to prevent them from breeding? You seem like the type who would believe something like that.


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## Varg Did Nothing Wrong (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Reactionary NPC, they appear every single time.



You know, I wonder if this is just a subset of the Kafka trap, or if there's a separate term for the dumb shit you're doing here in an effort to explain my dislike of you as being part of my "programming" as an NPC, instead of a reasonable reaction to your fucking autistic schizoposting.

You're one of the only people on here who I actually wish would come to some sort of bodily harm, because not a single interaction with you has been pleasant or informative in any way so far. I honestly hope you fuck off to some other corner of the internet so I don't have to read your inane navel-gazing "intellectual musings" anymore.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

The Crow said:


> @Hikikomori-Yume Do you believe that virtual reality is a jewish invention meant to distract the white race with hedonistic pleasure in an attempt to prevent them from breeding? You seem like the type who would believe something like that.



Haven't you already asked that exact question in another thread


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## The Fool (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Exactly
> You can't trust anything a human says because you're all NPCs stuck in the stone ages.
> Goddamn fucking watch Serial Experiments Lain.



Ironic or not, people like you are why I never tell anyone I even remotely enjoy SEL.
Also you should play ForumWarz it'll blow your mind.


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## Wendy Carter (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Some of you here might be familiar with the Simulated Reality Theory, which states that this universe is being rendered either by something external (or what I prose it is rendering itself).
> Here is the thing, yes that is most likely what our universe is, a computer that is sort of a living organism, but here is the thing and bare with me on this ...
> 
> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.
> ...


Either you watching anime all the time caused you to develop some kind of advanced stage of autism, you are perpetually under the influence of very potent narcotics or you fell head first into concrete when you were born, because almost every single thing I've seen you post on this site competes with @Shiversblood in terms of incoherency. The only difference is that his posts are funny.


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## Marvin (Apr 23, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> I also highly recommend anyone who hasn't read the original essay to do so because it's quite fascinating. I know you likely struggle with the academic tone but I'll be happy to help explain it to you if you ask. I'm always happy to share my incredible knowledge.


That essay is gibberish on the technical issues. It's fascinating to laymen who aren't familiar with the numbers.

Really, the worrying thing about this paper, to me, is how easily former programmers become effectively laymen when they retire from programming. Like, not the author, the author is a middle aged philosophy professor who probably still has porn on VHS tapes.

But there's former programmers who quit programming and nowadays occasionally ramble about AI sentience. They haven't programmed in 20 years, but people still look up to them.

That's the scary thing: quitting programming (like getting promoted to a manager position) and losing touch with technology. You turn into a boomer who can't figure out how to turn on the hyperporn mode of his VR system without his kids' help.

Programmer kiwis: never stop programming, your brain turns to mush.


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## The Fool (Apr 23, 2019)

Marvin said:


> That essay is gibberish on the technical issues. It's fascinating to laymen who aren't familiar with the numbers.
> 
> Really, the worrying thing about this paper, to me, is how easily former programmers become effectively laymen when they retire from programming. Like, not the author, the author is a middle aged philosophy professor who probably still has porn on VHS tapes.
> 
> ...



I've always looked up to Marvin Minsky and agree with him on more things than I do John McCarthy, but every time I read his work or watched his lectures I'd always think "so where is this AI you keep writing philosophy about?"
Now we'll never know because he's dead :[


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## Doc Cassidy (Apr 23, 2019)

Marvin said:


> That essay is gibberish on the technical issues. It's fascinating to laymen who aren't familiar with the numbers.
> 
> Really, the worrying thing about this paper, to me, is how easily former programmers become effectively laymen when they retire from programming. Like, not the author, the author is a middle aged philosophy professor who probably still has porn on VHS tapes.
> 
> ...


That's some interesting elitism.

Since they haven't had the "proper" education we can just ignore everything they say no matter how much sense they make. They're just uneducated nerds that taught themselves programming before most academics were even aware computers were even a thing, so fuck them.

Right?


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## Marvin (Apr 23, 2019)

The Fool said:


> I've always looked up to Marvin Minsky and agree with him on more things than I do John McCarthy, but every time I read his work or watched his lectures I'd always think "so where is this AI you keep writing philosophy about?"
> Now we'll never know because he's dead :[


I'm a huge lisp nerd, so I'm definitely a fan of John McCarthy.

I give old school AI guys like Marvin Minsky a break because of how much advancement they saw in their lives. It's not unreasonable to have been optimistic going through all that.

But it's a different time now and we should be more realistic.

Moore's law is slowing down. We're getting to the point where our transistors are literally a few atoms sandwiched together. I'm sure technology will still manage to pull some neat tricks out of its sleeve to keep progress going for a few more decades. And quantum computing will help kick the can down the road a bit.

But it's not indefinite, and lol, it definitely won't give us artificial sentience.


Doc Cassidy said:


> That's some interesting elitism.
> 
> Since they haven't had the "proper" education we can just ignore everything they say no matter how much sense they make. They're just uneducated nerds that taught themselves programming before most academics were even aware computers were even a thing, so fuck them.
> 
> Right?


I don't really feel it as elitism. I think most people are expert tier at one, maybe two big things in their lives. I respect knowledgeable people in other fields and defer to their expertise as much as I can.

When people try to spread themselves too thin, I think you get in situations like tech dipshits thinking they're brilliant at economics or medicine, and end up blowing all their money on dogecoin or poisoning themselves to live to 180.

Edit: Oh, and I don't care about education.


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## The Fool (Apr 23, 2019)

Marvin said:


> I'm a huge lisp nerd, so I'm definitely a fan of John McCarthy.
> 
> I give old school AI guys like Marvin Minsky a break because of how much advancement they saw in their lives. It's not unreasonable to have been optimistic going through all that.
> 
> ...



I don't buy that excuse. I'm not even asking for a full-blown HAL 9000, just, fucking something. Make something on the same cognitive and emotional level of a five year old child or an African grey parrot. Just, absolutely anything, any kind of proof of concept, just anything even remotely close to an entire functioning brain, not just various bits and pieces of one. All we have right now are are dumb-as-shit chatbots and neural networks that can paste dog faces on images. It feels like people are trying to fly by gluing chicken feathers to their arms and nobody's even attempting to design an actual wing.


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## Doc Cassidy (Apr 23, 2019)

Marvin said:


> Moore's law is slowing down. We're getting to the point where our transistors are literally a few atoms sandwiched together.


People have been saying that for decades but maybe this time you'll be right


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Piss said:


> You'd probably like the Zero Escape series, OP.



I'll check it out.
I have never really gotten into visual novels but I was thinking about getting Visual Novel Maker (by the same people who made RPG Maker).


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## Marvin (Apr 23, 2019)

The Fool said:


> I don't buy that excuse. I'm not even asking for a full-blown HAL 9000, just, fucking something. Make something on the same cognitive and emotional level of a five year old child or an African grey parrot. Just, absolutely anything, any kind of proof of concept, just anything even remotely close to an entire functioning brain, not just various bits and pieces of one. All we have right now are are dumb-as-shit chatbots and neural networks that can paste dog faces on images. It feels like people are trying to fly by gluing chicken feathers to their arms and nobody's even attempting to design an actual wing.


Honestly? I feel like we should start with insects. I think trying to shove a simulation of a fistful of neurons and expecting them to work together (even with a "lot" of training) is absurd.

Like, might as well graft some wires to some of my neurons and see of we can beam images into my head. Oh, I know they're not hooked up right, but don't worry, we'll run training on it and eventually this black box algorithm will pick out the right connections.


Doc Cassidy said:


> People have been saying that for decades but maybe this time you'll be right


No, Moore's law was a very predictable and logical consequence of the fact that the first inventors of the transistor really didn't try as hard as they could've. Everyone knew it'd be an arms race that would last a long time.

But the nature of it, fitting more things onto a small area, inherently has a stopping point where you're squeezing the smallest possible things, atoms, together. (Or maybe quantum particles, but like I said, that just stretches out the runway a bit longer.)


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## Doc Cassidy (Apr 23, 2019)

Marvin said:


> Honestly? I feel like we should start with insects.


You obviously don't watch Rick and Morty or else you'd know we've already done that. Controlling an incests brain is as easy as controlling one of those dumb indoor drones you can get at Walmart for 25 bucks.   https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-managed-mind-control-cockroaches


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## Scratchin' Pro (Apr 23, 2019)

So what, there can't be any new souls being made? There are new humans made all the time, why not some new souls?


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## Recoil (Apr 23, 2019)

Scratchin' Pro said:


> So what, there can't be any new souls being made? There are new humans made all the time, why not some new souls?


There are, but they gain depth and density over time through lived experience.


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## The Fool (Apr 23, 2019)

Marvin said:


> Honestly? I feel like we should start with insects. I think trying to shove a simulation of a fistful of neurons and expecting them to work together (even with a "lot" of training) is absurd.
> 
> Like, might as well graft some wires to some of my neurons and see of we can beam images into my head. Oh, I know they're not hooked up right, but don't worry, we'll run training on it and eventually this black box algorithm will pick out the right connections.



That's why I believe in Minsky's philosophy that strong AI will be intentionally designed using hand-written algorithms instead of McCarthy's vision that it'll be just a big ol' neural network.
You're right, computers will never be able to simulate a human brain perfectly. That's why we need to work on their level. We don't simulate physics in games by literally simulating every atom in the universe, we simplify it into a set of algorithms that make practical sense for the hardware platform and for the application. I don't know why it's such a struggle for someone to try the same with AI. The brain is only a potential implementation of intelligence leveraging overly-complicated hardware for a lack of a software implementation. A software implementation would be so much simpler, kind of why we use tiny embedded processors running a RTOS instead of a giant room of analogue equipment now. Again, we don't simulate the physics of those analogue computers in embedded systems, we just write practically-equivalent code of what they were supposed to do.
It wouldn't be perfect, but, really just implement everything we know about psychology into code. It's not like we don't have a pretty solid understanding of how humans think and behave, just write the code to duplicate that.
I'd like to try it myself but I'm fairly busy. I mean I got theories but I don't have the time nor resources to try it now. Obviously it would kind of be a huge system. Really trying to not talk out of my ass after having said "where is the AI you keep writing philosophy about"


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## Smaug's Smokey Hole (Apr 23, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum, a question I know none of you will be able to answer. 'A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"'
> 
> I look forward to the answer of anyone reading this. Here's your chance, explain why we even exist.



That question is bunk. There is no nothing, even what you think is nothing is in fact something, the real question should be "why would there be nothing?" - see if you can answer that one.


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## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 23, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum, a question I know none of you will be able to answer. 'A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"'


The structure of reality has no obligation to cohere to our preconceptions.  From our limited perspective, with no tools, it would make more sense to presume the sun moves around the Earth instead of the other way around.
EDIT: Also OP is an autisticdragonkin-tier pseud and I can't wait for his inevitable cult leader arc.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Senior Lexmechanic said:


> I can't wait for his inevitable cult leader arc.



I have considered it.
If you want to follow me, I am willing to lead.


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## RG 448 (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.


Hey, we bust our asses to make this experience authentic for you.  What, do you go to magic shows and hassle the magicians about how their tricks are fake, too?


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 23, 2019)

Testaclese Maximus said:


> Hey, we bust our asses to make this experience authentic for you.  What, do you go to magic shows and hassle the magicians about how their tricks are fake, too?



Look ... as your god, I want you to know that I don't want you to go through this, I'm not sadistic ... it is all the fault of the jews.
If you allow me to guide you all in this battle of holy light vs satanic dark evil (jewry) then we can have permanent peace throughout the cosmos.


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## RG 448 (Apr 23, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Look ... as your god,


Wow you do not understand the situation as well as I thought you did.


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## Clockwork_PurBle (Apr 24, 2019)

> posts something wild and tin foil hatty
> people respond naturally
> "lol what?"
> "hahahah y'all are just mindless NPCs I am v enlightened"



Reminds me of this image.


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## Marvin (Apr 24, 2019)

The Fool said:


> That's why I believe in Minsky's philosophy that strong AI will be intentionally designed using hand-written algorithms instead of McCarthy's vision that it'll be just a big ol' neural network.
> You're right, computers will never be able to simulate a human brain perfectly. That's why we need to work on their level. We don't simulate physics in games by literally simulating every atom in the universe, we simplify it into a set of algorithms that make practical sense for the hardware platform and for the application. I don't know why it's such a struggle for someone to try the same with AI. The brain is only a potential implementation of intelligence leveraging overly-complicated hardware for a lack of a software implementation. A software implementation would be so much simpler, kind of why we use tiny embedded processors running a RTOS instead of a giant room of analogue equipment now. Again, we don't simulate the physics of those analogue computers in embedded systems, we just write practically-equivalent code of what they were supposed to do.
> It wouldn't be perfect, but, really just implement everything we know about psychology into code. It's not like we don't have a pretty solid understanding of how humans think and behave, just write the code to duplicate that.
> I'd like to try it myself but I'm fairly busy. I mean I got theories but I don't have the time nor resources to try it now. Obviously it would kind of be a huge system. Really trying to not talk out of my ass after having said "where is the AI you keep writing philosophy about"


I think a handwritten implementation would pass the Turing test, but I don't think it'd be sentient.

For any handwritten algorithm, someone can read the source code and get a general idea of how it works and how it would react to a given stimulus. If you can predict it with specific knowledge of how it works, I think we can rule out sentience, at least sentience on a human level.

Well, and I'd also say that large parts of the human brain are specialized for certain tasks. But there's big parts that are a big question mark to science. It's general purpose brain power.

I think the key to sentience is having a lot of general purpose room for thoughts to lurch around in. You have space for optical processing, space for fight-or-flight, space for memories, and then there's lots of question mark areas in between the sections. I think that's where sentience lives.

And I also think that implementing general purpose gray matter like that does require special hardware. In fact, I don't think we can do it in silicon. We can get the theory down right, but it'll run way too slow (or with way too high latency; imagine having brain latency) for the simulated brain to interact with the real world in real time.

I think it's possible we could develop sentient AI through biological engineering. Maybe if we could clone blank neurons and "program" them somehow.


----------



## XYZpdq (Apr 24, 2019)

The other day I went up up down down left right left right b a and then it basically maxed out my power ups.

Turns out my power ups kinda suck even maxed out.


----------



## KimCoppolaAficionado (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I have considered it.
> If you want to follow me, I am willing to lead.


Will I get a qt anime girl when we inevitably drink poisoned ramune to "unplug" from the simulation?


----------



## The Fool (Apr 24, 2019)

Marvin said:


> I think the key to sentience is having a lot of general purpose room for thoughts to lurch around in. You have space for optical processing, space for fight-or-flight, space for memories, and then there's lots of question mark areas in between the sections. I think that's where sentience lives.



And I feel that's exactly where we need to start working. We need to challenge the unknown like we do with any scientific field.
Discussing what the brain _doesn't_ do is too large and vague of a subject. But I will say one thing people don't seem to focus on at all is emotions, and we already have studies out the ass saying how emotions affect us in almost all ways mentally and even physically. We remeber pain more than pleasure, and if we remember something, suddenly we feel the emotion associated with it, even though that event isn't happening anymore. People seem so bent on getting a neural network to recognize images that they don't seem to worry about how those images even register to it. Is it interesting? Is it related to anything interesting? Should it be admired? Avoided? If it associates the image with something it likes, what happens when it comes into combination with something it doesn't like? How the brain registers data is so, so much more complex than just positive/negative reinforcement and I think a lot of people miss that. Emotional processes would fill at least some of the gaps you mention and it honestly wouldn't even be much more complicated than say, like, a couple floating-point values assigned to each memory of a subject it has.
You're right, there are many gaps in what we could currently design for an AI, but I think a lot of those gaps have pretty easy solutions if anyone ever bothered to care about them.


----------



## Cedric_Eff (Apr 24, 2019)

I just think we all live in an endless loop but with a different outcome everytime.


----------



## Doc Cassidy (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Serial Experiments Lain.


To save everyone the trouble of searching, Google tells me this is some kind of cartoon. He's literally getting his philosophy from a Disney ripoff  that's the most basic npc shit imaginable.


----------



## The Fool (Apr 24, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> To save everyone the trouble of searching, Google tells me this is some kind of cartoon. He's literally getting his philosophy from a Disney ripoff  that's the most basic npc shit imaginable.



It's a cartoon filled with too-deep-for-you visuals that waste like 22 minutes of the show and the other 3 minutes are lain going "but the internet IS real life!"


----------



## Recoil (Apr 24, 2019)

Marvin said:


> Honestly? I feel like we should start with insects. I think trying to shove a simulation of a fistful of neurons and expecting them to work together (even with a "lot" of training) is absurd.
> 
> Like, might as well graft some wires to some of my neurons and see of we can beam images into my head. Oh, I know they're not hooked up right, but don't worry, we'll run training on it and eventually this black box algorithm will pick out the right connections.
> 
> ...


I believe they've been able to fully simulate every part of an earthworm for some time now.


----------



## NOT Sword Fighter Super (Apr 24, 2019)

Recon said:


> That's an insanely self centered point of view. None of us are that important and making the statement you're making indicates an inability to connect with others on your part long before your starring role on any Truman Shows.


Well, this person is a 15 year old female, so of course she's self centered.


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Apr 24, 2019)

Scratchin' Pro said:


> So what, there can't be any new souls being made? There are new humans made all the time, why not some new souls?


Souls may not be new or original. They might just be borrowed energy from whatever God is.


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

@Hikikomori-Yume I'd suggest getting over yourself while you still can.  You're not special, the Universe doesn't care for you or your feelings.  You can escape reality and delude yourself into thinking you're the main character in all this, but reality will take you back eventually.


----------



## Pickle Inspector (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Some of you here might be familiar with the Simulated Reality Theory, which states that this universe is being rendered either by something external (or what I prose it is rendering itself).
> Here is the thing, yes that is most likely what our universe is, a computer that is sort of a living organism, but here is the thing and bare with me on this ...
> 
> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.
> ...


It might need a real person to _create _the initial simulation but why would there need to be a living person involved in the simulation? 

Wouldn’t it be easier for the simulation to be full of beings who think they aren’t simulated constructs?


----------



## polonium (Apr 24, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"'



Making sense, as a concept, is subjective. So for nothing to make sense it implies that something else must be there to make sense of it. The question posed, that something makes less sense than nothing therefore "nothing" is the more plausible of the two, falsifies itself since for nothing to make sense at all there must be something there to make sense of what it finds.

Since nothing inherently makes no sense, then no sense is less than a little sense, so nothing by definition makes less sense than anything else (zero sense), so something makes more sense than nothing.


----------



## Basketball Jones (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.



Oh..oh we’re diving straight into deep thunks right out the gate. Alright then...lemme just get myself properly..uh..”mentally adjusted” before I continue any further...







Hikikomori-Yume said:


> So what is holding this reality together?



Thoughts and prayers.



Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I think that for any single reality there can only be one person actually alive inside of it, or, I'm inside some VR prison that is being run by a machine in the "real reality" that is being controlled by an ASI god/control grid.


Rollback to this for a second. Are you saying that the *entire universe* is a simulation and you’re the protagonist within it, or are you saying that *your life* is an isolated simulated system centered around monitoring you and your reactions to the world around you (for example, your put in the world like a Sim and your actions are then watched by someone/thing else)? Do other people that you’ve never talked to or met before also have isolated simulations? Or does everyone just inhabit the universe like a bunch of characters in a WoW  server?

I need that answered first before I even attempt to meet this thought train halfway down the tracks.



Doc Cassidy said:


> Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum, a question I know none of you will be able to answer. 'A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"'



Because entropy.



Cedric_Eff said:


> I just think we all live in an endless loop but with a different outcome everytime.



Spooky, dude...I was just thinking about that exact thing over the weekend. I actually went out to smoke around the first two pages in the thread and was mulling over the idea of the universe banging into existence, and then eventually succumbing to the void of entropy, and then randomly experiencing some chaos theory and banging back into existence, ect, ect, repeat until endless infinity.

Because I made the choice to watch this while under the influence, and I can’t stop thinking about one of the title cards that drops near the end.





 and


Spoiler: Roses are red...



Black matter will eat us/
But ain’t nobody got time/
Because






As an aside, I’m enjoying reading through the discussion  @The Fool and @Marvin are having off to the side of this thread. I keep pausing my reading to look up philosophies y’all brought up, because I’ve never heard of them and learning is ok sometimes. Also, while googling your smart-people jargon, I went down an ADD rabbit-home and found this article about Human Consciousness and Entropy and thought I’d pass the link along for anyone interested (as it seemed like it kind of related to the topic of studying the lesser understood  parts of the human brain). This article fleshes the theory and the process by which data was obtained more.

[EDIT] linked image like a t*a*rd


----------



## LinuxVoid (Apr 24, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> To save everyone the trouble of searching, Google tells me this is some kind of cartoon. He's literally getting his philosophy from a Disney ripoff  that's the most basic npc shit imaginable.


The cartoon had a different message.

This thread is top bate though, congrats hikki. Since we all know that if you were so special, you wouldn't be talking to us right now. You would be trying to escape this hell by any means possible (suicide), but you are programmed like all of us are, even your idea of having a conscious is just an illusion.


----------



## PL 001 (Apr 24, 2019)

You believe everyone else in the world is some faceless NPC and you're the only "real" one among us? 

That's called solipsism, and it's a mental disorder, not some half baked philosophical breakthrough.


----------



## Kuchipatchi (Apr 24, 2019)

My NPC dialogue says that you're a faggot.


----------



## Violence Jack (Apr 24, 2019)

WinterMoonsLight said:


> That's called solipsism, and it's a mental disorder, not some half baked philosophical breakthrough.


Well of course it's a mental disorder. How else would the controlling party with actual autonomy maintain a hold over the masses? Call 'em crazy and stick them where they're unable to affect anything or others.

But OP is poisoning the well with their self-centered view and jokes about godhood. Also Lain fucking sucks. Go watch some better mangos fool.


----------



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

LinuxVoid said:


> The cartoon had a different message.
> 
> This thread is top bate though, congrats hikki. Since we all know that if you were so special, you wouldn't be talking to us right now. You would be trying to escape this hell by any means possible (suicide), but you are programmed like all of us are, even your idea of having a conscious is just an illusion.



You called Serial Experiments Lain a "cartoon"

I won't be killing myself, I'll be killing *you.*



WinterMoonsLight said:


> You believe everyone else in the world is some faceless NPC and you're the only "real" one among us?
> 
> That's called solipsism, and it's a mental disorder, not some half baked philosophical breakthrough.



"Anything I don't like or agree with is a mental disorder!"

Silly 20th century NPCs conflating personality with mental disorders ... which would be something like your actual brain chemicals misfiring not "ohhhhhh you have the wrong perspective!!".

*Basketball Jones*

I really, unironically believe this and it will be proven true in time.
I can't believe how toxic the NPCs in my world are though (such as the ones on this forum), it truly is a bad case of diarrhea.
Anyways, I and this reality were created by something that exists outside of this reality, there are many like it (so I'm not suggesting that I am the only alive being in all of existence) and what I think is that before a universe is created there is a system that randomizes all the presets then the universe evolves based on those defined presets.
After a universe dies the timeline repeats itself but with different outcomes.
In my previous life I think I killed myself but in this timeline I'm going to become god-like and save the world from international jewry and satan.



The Skeptical Tomato X5 said:


> everyone's so stupid, everyone but me



It's not about you being stupid.

My reasoning for this being a simulated reality is for the fact that the means to manipulate reality exist, but we're still here.
If civilizations from billions of years ago could have achieved god-like status and took control of their universe or reality they would have, and with the sheer amount of possible civilizations that could have existed up until now then there should have been countless ones to destroy themselves, a few to destroy their solar system then on and on until you make it to the destruction of their universe and then you have a few who would go on to control reality.
Now lets assume that a civilization more advanced than "ours" (mine) is in control of this reality ... then why are they allowing the lifeforms on the various planets to suffer, why wouldn't an omnipotent all-power being help us out, unless it is using us as a utility.

and if the elite are so powerful then why do they need useless eaters instead of foglets or something


----------



## Edgeworth (Apr 24, 2019)

Damn, I wish NPCs in my video games were actually written as cleverly as the so-called NPCs in this thread. They're more thought-provoking to think about than the OP, in any case. Darn NPC programming telling me to say what everyone else says in that OP's a dipfuck. The Master Control in charge of the simulation should give this lazy NEET a guide on how to interact with NPCs instead of just countering their disagreeing opinions with "lol ur mad" like an actual child rather than something contemplative.

Aw man, I'm out of lines of code. I have nothing of value to contribute, I just like calling OP a dipfuck. NPCs repeat their lines of dialogue, right? Cool, I'm in the clear.

(I agree though, that coherent side conversation about actual philosophy is really interesting)


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> You called Serial Experiments Lain a "cartoon"
> 
> I won't be killing myself, I'll be killing *you.*


We all know Serial Experiments Lain is a chinese cartoon originally created with the intent of making the US feel guilty for nuking Japan twice.  Now, America has to deal with something known as "anime", something that will kill western civilization as we know it.


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## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> We all know Serial Experiments Lain is a chinese cartoon originally created with the intent of making the US feel guilty for nuking Japan twice.  Now, America has to deal with something known as "anime", something that will kill western civilization as we know it.



Well, here is the way I look at it:
Yes jews invented anime, with the intent that in the future it would be used to indoctrinate the masses into the globalist psyche.
Yes satan uses anime as a weapon against mankind and myself.
But you know what, I invented anime, I invented this reality, anime is sacred and holy and the jews are just like tiny bacteria inside my body, tiny little processes that make up the sum of my physicality.
So as long as you are enjoying it, what does it matter.
Western civilization needed to die anyways, really.
If you aren't a zoomer and you grew up pre 2000 then you know how shitty everything was, it needed to end.
Now comes the rebirth.


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Well, here is the way I look at it:
> Yes jews invented anime, with the intent that in the future it would be used to indoctrinate the masses into the globalist psyche.
> Yes satan uses anime as a weapon against mankind and myself.
> But you know what, I invented anime, I invented this reality, anime is sacred and holy and the jews are just like tiny bacteria inside my body, tiny little processes that make up the sum of my physicality.
> ...


Can you read?  The CHINESE invented chinese cartoons AKA anime.  You're enjoying propaganda made from the CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY who aim to kick Japan while it's down by attributing awful fetishes lke lolis, shotas and traps to Japan. It's absolutely sickening what the CCP is willing to do just to get back at Japan for the Second Sino-Japanese War


----------



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> Can you read?  The CHINESE invented chinese cartoons AKA anime.  You're enjoying propaganda made from the CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY who aim to kick Japan while it's down by attributing awful fetishes lke lolis, shotas and traps to Japan. It's absolutely sickening what the CCP is willing to do just to get back at Japan for the Second Sino-Japanese War




I'm a quarter Chinese so idc China can take over the world
The jews literally invented anime. Well maybe not the jews specifically but secret societies
Maybe communism isn't so bad (if implemented properly) (it's better than judeo-crapitalism)
To each their own


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I'm a quarter Chinese so idc China can take over the world
> The jews literally invented anime. Well maybe not the jews specifically but secret societies
> Maybe communism isn't so bad (if implemented properly) (it's better than judeo-crapitalism)
> To each their own


I really hope you're shitposting in regards to Chinese takeover.  Look up the Tienanmen Square massacre where the Chinese military gunned down over 10,000 for protesting or the millions of Chinese people who died due to famine because of The Great Leap Forward.  The Chinese Communist Party doesn't give a shit if you're quarter Cinese, they'll torture and kill you if you criticize them.


----------



## Recoil (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> I really hope you're shitposting in regards to Chinese takeover.  Look up the Tienanmen Square massacre where the Chinese military gunned down over 10,000 for protesting of the millions of Chinese people who died due to famine because of The Great Leap Forward.  The Chinese Communist Party doesn't give a shit if you're quarter Cinese, they'll torture and kill you if you criticize them.


They sent soldiers to the colleges to murder the students in their dorms.


----------



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> I really hope you're shitposting in regards to Chinese takeover.  Look up the Tienanmen Square massacre where the Chinese military gunned down over 10,000 for protesting or the millions of Chinese people who died due to famine because of The Great Leap Forward.  The Chinese Communist Party doesn't give a shit if you're quarter Cinese, they'll torture and kill you if you criticize them.



At the end of the day, every government is corrupt and every country is fucked.
Everything needs to collapse, all nations, all ideologies and false histories.
Humanity must be reborn.


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> At the end of the day, every government is corrupt and every country is fucked.
> Everything needs to collapse, all nations, all ideologies and false histories.
> Humanity must be reborn.


At the end of the day, you should pick the corrupt government that treats you a little better than the others.  The fact that you post stuff like this tells me that you live in a country that lets you criticize the government.  Why throw away the freedom you have now becaue it might be lost in the future?


----------



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> At the end of the day, you should pick the corrupt government that treats you a little better than the others.  The fact that you post stuff like this tells me that you live in a country that lets you criticize the government.  Why throw away the freedom you have now becaue it might be lost in the future?



As of the moment I am in a state of total nihilism 
We are either at the mercy of an evil ruling class, E.T., a corrupt government or anything else that pops up.
You might shit on China right now but realize that any other country is essentially the same, they just mask it better or package it in a way that is appealing/less threatening to the public.
Over the course of the coming decade and half cities will transform into automated organisms with 24/7 surveillance built into everything.
The dystopia people warned about in science fiction for decades is coming to a reality.
I don't want to live in a world like that .... so I agree with /pol/ that the best route to take is accelerationism and force the current society to address these issues.
You better be prepared for China or somebody to come in and take over and .... prepare to even enter the timeline where Islam takes over the world if it comes to that.
Western civilization is dying and will enter a dark age.


----------



## Recoil (Apr 24, 2019)

You're not a nihilist, you're just too lazy to believe in something.


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> As of the moment I am in a state of total nihilism
> We are either at the mercy of an evil ruling class, E.T., a corrupt government or anything else that pops up.
> You might shit on China right now but realize that any other country is essentially the same, they just mask it better or package it in a way that is appealing/less threatening to the public.
> Over the course of the coming decade and half cities will transform into automated organisms with 24/7 surveillance built into everything.
> ...


For being the only real human in a sea of NPCs, you come off just like an NPC.  You base your worldview on fellow NPCs from /pol/, you can't even be asked to fight against what you see as the death of western civilization.  At least in most of the chinese cartoons you watch, the main character tries to stand out and act based on their world view.  An accelerationist goes out in to the world and promotes the death of civilization, you just sperg out about it online in a place where you don't stand out.


----------



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> For being the only real human in a sea of NPCs, you come off just like an NPC.  You base your worldview on fellow NPCs from /pol/, you can't even be asked to fight against what you see as the death of western civilization.  At least in most of the chinese cartoons you watch, the main character tries to stand out and act based on their world view.  An accelerationist goes out in to the world and promotes the death of civilization, you just sperg out about it online in a place where you don't stand out.



Doesn't mean anything.
There are infinite realities and right now there are probably infinite ones just like this very one where I am talking to you on this forum.
Existence is so vast and meaning doesn't really mean anything.


----------



## Carcinogenesis (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Doesn't mean anything.
> There are infinite realities and right now there are probably infinite ones just like this very one where I am talking to you on this forum.
> Existence is so vast and meaning doesn't really mean anything.


All that talk about how you were the main character, than you slump back in to the NPC mentality.  A mindset like that won't improve your situation.  Humans wanted to live longer, so we worked hard to go from a lifespan of arund 30 years if you're lucky to 90+ years in most cases.  We wanted to live in peace, so we built cities that keeps the harsh wild out.  A defeatist mindset wouldn't lead to all of this.


----------



## Hikikomori-Yume (Apr 24, 2019)

Carcinogenesis said:


> All that talk about how you were the main character, than you slump back in to the NPC mentality.  A mindset like that won't improve your situation.  Humans wanted to live longer, so we worked hard to go from a lifespan of arund 30 years if you're lucky to 90+ years in most cases.  We wanted to live in peace, so we built cities that keeps the harsh wild out.  A defeatist mindset wouldn't lead to all of this.



I realize you can only see things from the perspective of a tiny little NPC consciousness but listen, things are bad and need to be reworked.
I have already put things into motion and they are already playing out, in fact, I summoned the Christchurch Shooting and I have called for World War 3 to commence. 
It's time to rebuild human civilization in the name of honor, justice and truth.


----------



## An Ghost (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> It's time to rebuild human civilization in the name of *tolerance, diversity, and memes*.


fixed that for you


----------



## Kamiii (Apr 24, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I realize you can only see things from the perspective of a tiny little NPC consciousness but listen, things are bad and need to be reworked.
> I have already put things into motion and they are already playing out, in fact, I summoned the Christchurch Shooting and I have called for World War 3 to commence.
> It's time to rebuild human civilization in the name of honor, justice and truth.


You overstepped, now it's obvious you're joking.


----------



## SpessCaptain (Apr 24, 2019)

While the OP is clearly a powerleveller and possibly one for the books, the conversation is somewhat genuine from some users. I had to clip a few replies to fit with the more genuine and tone of DT.

In reality I really think "who cares if this is a simulated reality" If our minds and our context is entirely based on chemicals and firing nodes in our brain what difference does it make if our lives are dictacted by a seed in a computer, the simulation is our reality so we should just treat it so.


----------



## The Fool (Apr 25, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> "Anything I don't like or agree with is a mental disorder!"
> 
> Silly 20th century NPCs conflating personality with mental disorders ... which would be something like your actual brain chemicals misfiring not "ohhhhhh you have the wrong perspective!!".





Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I really, unironically believe this and it will be proven true in time.
> I can't believe how toxic the NPCs in my world are though (such as the ones on this forum), it truly is a bad case of diarrhea.



Okay, let us discuss philosophy. I will utilize my artificial existence, that of which was created entirely to distract you, to the fullest of my abilities, as any debatably-living creature can honestly only aspire to.
Have you ever heard of the phrase "Meet an asshole once, you met an asshole. Meet an asshole all day, you're the asshole"?
Think about this, what part of our autonomy, as artificial constructs designed to distract you in a digital vivarium, would make us hostile? If we are autonomous in any way, shape, or form - and I must insist we must be, or else this is one great way to waste money hiring actors to torment you for no reason - then we must have a will of some shape, right? Some mechanism that dictates our will to live, and in effect, our desires, hopes and dreams. If this is, in fact, a digital vivarium made just for you, then it would only make sense we're some form of artificial consciousness made at least in some semblance of a human consciousness. We have to have some sort of _Id_, some concept that makes us focus only on ourselves, what _we_ want that only benefits _us_ with complete disregard for any and all other life, friend or foe. If I am truly autonomous, what reason would I have to go out of my way to antagonize you, even for nothing more than a split second, instead of, say, jacking off?
So then, for what reason at all, would we have to antagonize you without prior input? Let me contextualize this in something Kiwi Farms-esque. Say you're a Nice Guy(TM), and I'm a woman. I don't dislike men, in fact I love men, especially men who treat me as an equal, use the same speech patterns and physical gestures they do with me as they do with their friends. Then you come along, saying how all the men in my life are assholes for empathizing with me, and you insist you're more than adequate to mate with me, not because you'd treat me as an equal, but rather for the express reason that you'd treat me as unequal and as if I was an alien creature to you. (Disclaimer: Do not re-use this analogy to turn this into a nice guy thread or else the mods will probably lock it, and rightfully so)
Now, if you're the scholar you claim to be, you can probably see the analogy already. Here we have a thread, nay, an entire forum of users who can empathize with each other and gladly say they are all equal to one another. Everyone in this forum can be ranked by money, job, status, anything you want. But none of us do that, none of us bring up such things. I'm sure there's a few users here who are honestly pretty rich, but they don't mention that, because they know that doesn't make them better than anyone else here. This is a community where _raw input_ and _communication_ is the sole ranking of what sort of person you are. The better you are a communication and empathy, the more respected you will be.
On the flip side, calling us all NPCs is going to do the exact opposite of getting you respect.
We can only act on your input, we don't know who or what you are before that. If you use positive input, we will act positively to you.
That is why we're "toxic". Because you are.
Also I'm drunk


----------



## qt farmer :) (Apr 25, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> I realize you can only see things from the perspective of a tiny little NPC consciousness but listen, things are bad and need to be reworked.
> I have already put things into motion and they are already playing out, in fact, I summoned the Christchurch Shooting and I have called for World War 3 to commence.
> It's time to rebuild human civilization in the name of honor, justice and truth.



tfw you call everyone NPCs yet you're parroting what every conspiracy loon NPC has been squawking about for more than 50 years. 

those that repeatedly call for the destruction of the world do so because their existence is miserable and they're too pussy enough to end themselves, because as much as they love to claim they're 'nihilists', there's still something that keeps them in this world, which goes against the nature of nihilism; if life were truly meaningless, then you would keel over and die, yet it obviously isn't because you still feed yourself, bathe yourself (hopefully), and communicate in some shape or form with others, therefore life cannot be truly meaningless if you engage in these behaviors.


----------



## Scratchin' Pro (Apr 25, 2019)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> Souls may not be new or original. They might just be borrowed energy from whatever God is.



Okay, I see what you mean. What if instead, new souls are being created by splitting old souls into multiple pieces. Therefore, each new soul is stupider than the one it was split from?

Edit: Quick clarification, I'm a little drunk so I am completely immune from any and all criticism.


----------



## Mariposa Electrique (Apr 25, 2019)

Scratchin' Pro said:


> Okay, I see what you mean. What if instead, new souls are being created by splitting old souls into multiple pieces. Therefore, each new soul is stupider than the one it was split from?
> 
> Edit: Quick clarification, I'm a little drunk so I am completely immune from any and all criticism.


I dunno, it's probably one of those things that cannot be quantified. If you really think about it the only purpose that we have on this realm of reality is one of two things

Experience reality with all our senses
Create progeny that can also do the first thing I mentioned.
_If_ you think about it, we're just kind of like multicellular puppets, whose experiences might be harvested by some weird creature, who may not even have that much sentience.

If God and souls do exists, then we're not the only creatures with souls.

My other theory has to do with emergence theory. What if, through evolution and sentience, we evolved souls as some sort of natural phenomena and created God.


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## Scratchin' Pro (Apr 25, 2019)

Mariposa Electrique said:


> I dunno, it's probably one of those things that cannot be quantified. If you really think about it the only purpose that we have on this realm of reality is one of two things
> 
> Experience reality with all our senses
> Create progeny that can also do the first thing I mentioned.
> ...



That's true. As long as there's some sort of afterlife, I'm down for whatever this whole reality thing is.

Also, OP is a faggot.


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## ICametoLurk (Apr 27, 2019)

Get into the Demiuge shit. Yaldabaoth's creation isn't evil, it's just a second-rate simulation. As the gnostic teacher Valentinus put it, “However much a portrait is inferior to an actual face, just so is the world worse than the living realm… For the form was not reproduced with perfect fidelity…”


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## Mister Loser (Apr 27, 2019)

cogito, ergo sum disproves your entire statement
regardless of whether or not we're all simulated, we exist in something and that's really all that matters first and foremost
enjoy your life, no matter whether there's nothing after or not


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## Marco Fucko (Apr 27, 2019)

Hikikomori-Yume said:


> Some of you here might be familiar with the Simulated Reality Theory, which states that this universe is being rendered either by something external (or what I prose it is rendering itself).
> Here is the thing, yes that is most likely what our universe is, a computer that is sort of a living organism, but here is the thing and bare with me on this ...
> 
> I unironically believe you are all NPCs and that I am inside some sort of virtual reality world at the moment.
> ...



Solipsism is for retards my dude.


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## Sinner's Sandwich (Apr 27, 2019)

Recon said:


> You're here to allow the universe to experience itself through you. Your mission is to learn as much as possible and self actualize, in that order



I'm sure the universe appreciates me laughing about men with multilated penises who think they are women, autists and other mentally ill sick fucks on the internet.



Scratchin' Pro said:


> So what, there can't be any new souls being made? There are new humans made all the time, why not some new souls?



If only From Software would think this too...


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## ConcernedAnon (Apr 28, 2019)

Doc Cassidy said:


> Here's a question I pose to everyone on this forum, a question I know none of you will be able to answer. 'A Muslim philosopher once asked "Why is there something instead of nothing? Doesn't nothing make more sense?"'



A wonderful question to ponder and yet unanswerable by it's nature, for if there were nothing, there would be no one to ask the question, and no question to be asked. Nothing in and of itself is unimaginable and unexperienceable, and we are thereby precluded from the experience --or lack thereof-- of nothingness, for there is no experience to be had. The question of what came before something is at best an inseverable loop, and at worst completely nonsensical. The best one can say is that this is, and we are.

To be frank, I am not sure it even makes sense to suppose that a lack of anything should be more sensible than the existence of something, though I can appreciate the train of thought. Nothing certainly seems somehow like a more basic state, and yet I don't know that there is really any fundamental justification for this feeling. I think it is more a miracle that we out of all things unimaginable exist, and perhaps nothingness is but one of those things.


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## AnOminous (Apr 28, 2019)

ConcernedAnon said:


> Nothing certainly seems somehow like a more basic state, and yet I don't know that there is really any fundamental justification for this feeling.



There's no such thing as nothing.  Nothing would have no attributes.  Even completely empty space has attributes, though, such as permittivity, i.e. its capacity to permit electric field lines.  So even a complete vacuum is "something," as it has qualities that can be described.


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## Kamiii (Apr 28, 2019)

AnOminous said:


> There's no such thing as nothing.  Nothing would have no attributes.  Even completely empty space has attributes, though, such as permittivity, i.e. its capacity to permit electric field lines.  So even a complete vacuum is "something," as it has qualities that can be described.


Before you are born you are nothing.


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## AnOminous (Apr 28, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> Before you are born you are nothing.



Before you are born, there's no such thing as you.


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## The Fool (Apr 29, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> Before you are born you are nothing.



Before you are born, the parts that are going to make you up are separated into various atoms and compounds that will eventually be used as fuel between your father generating sperm and your mother generating your fetus, and the concepts that build up your personality and will are built up from the stimulus received from when you start developing in the womb. It's not possible for you to not exist before you're born because all of the parts are already there that eventually build you up, the only difference is that you gain the ability to have the audacity to declair that you never existed before all the matter in the universe bent over to put you together. Saying you don't exist before you're born is like putting together a LEGO set and saying you built it from scratch.


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## Kamiii (Apr 29, 2019)

The Fool said:


> Before you are born, the parts that are going to make you up are separated into various atoms and compounds that will eventually be used as fuel between your father generating sperm and your mother generating your fetus, and the concepts that build up your personality and will are built up from the stimulus received from when you start developing in the womb. It's not possible for you to not exist before you're born because all of the parts are already there that eventually build you up, the only difference is that you gain the ability to have the audacity to declair that you never existed before all the matter in the universe bent over to put you together. Saying you don't exist before you're born is like putting together a LEGO set and saying you built it from scratch.


If we go by "I think therefore I am", you "aren't" until you are born. The compounds that make you up exist but like you said it isn't considered you yet. So I would still think of that as being quite literally nothing.


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## The Fool (Apr 29, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> If we go by "I think therefore I am", you "aren't" until you are born. The compounds that make you up exist but like you said it isn't considered you yet. So I would still think of that as being quite literally nothing.



Any philosopher worth their salt knows the phrase "I think, therefor I am" is itself debatable. Basing your entire argument on it doesn't make much sense.
What is thought, anyway? It's just pushing around some concepts in your brain. The brain isn't much more than a fancy analogue calculator. You can sum up thought as adding numbers together. Does the number 4 not exist before I write the following? 2 + 2 = 4
Well, numbers don't exist in general. They do as concepts, though. Those concepts that are shared by other people besides yourself. Does it matter if you're the one specifically considering a concept when many others before you have done so?
Existence means as much as numbers do. It's a label for a specific state of the universe where suddenly you declare "look, that cluster of protein is me" based entirely off of one's own biased view of themselves.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (May 23, 2019)

Kamiii said:


> _"In a paper published in the journal Science Advances, Zohar Ringel and Dmitry Kovrizhi show that constructing a computer simulation of a particular quantum phenomenon that occurs in metals is impossible – not just practically, but in principle."_


That means it is impossible in our world. Yet, if our world is a computer simulation, physical laws would be, too, so that doesn't mean that the world that creates ours has the same physical laws.


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## c-no (Jun 5, 2019)

Valiant said:


> While the OP is clearly a powerleveller and possibly one for the books, the conversation is somewhat genuine from some users. I had to clip a few replies to fit with the more genuine and tone of DT.
> 
> In reality I really think "who cares if this is a simulated reality" If our minds and our context is entirely based on chemicals and firing nodes in our brain what difference does it make if our lives are dictacted by a seed in a computer, the simulation is our reality so we should just treat it so.


While this is late on my part, the "who cares if this is a simulated reality" is one that holds truth. Granted I see it as this: even if we are simply a simulated reality, either as people hooked up to a machine or as an NPC built from millions of lines of code and all, that wouldn't really stop us from thinking, it wouldn't stop us from having mental states as the like. Even if we live in a simulated reality that is seeded from variables that leads to a clown world timeline, we still live our lives as they are regardless of whether or not we are real or just a shit ton of code that leaves us all to just be NPCs living in some sort of roguelike world or molecules clumped together to give us our form.



The Fool said:


> Any philosopher worth their salt knows the phrase "I think, therefor I am" is itself debatable. Basing your entire argument on it doesn't make much sense.
> What is thought, anyway? It's just pushing around some concepts in your brain. The brain isn't much more than a fancy analogue calculator. You can sum up thought as adding numbers together. Does the number 4 not exist before I write the following? 2 + 2 = 4
> Well, numbers don't exist in general. They do as concepts, though. Those concepts that are shared by other people besides yourself. Does it matter if you're the one specifically considering a concept when many others before you have done so?
> Existence means as much as numbers do. It's a label for a specific state of the universe where suddenly you declare "look, that cluster of protein is me" based entirely off of one's own biased view of themselves.


And in regards to philosophy and the phrase "I think, therefore I am," I remember from philosophy professor noting Descartes, the guy behind the term, being an arm-chair philosopher. The phrase itself is debatable enough that it wouldn't be surprising for other philosophers to question or discard it entirely in favor of another system of ideas. As for existence itself, it all may as well be (or more or less) our own subjective views in a universe that operates on laws that are separate from our own subjective view and biases.


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## Webby's Boyfriend (Jun 7, 2019)

If we live in a simulated reality, I would like to know why, and how it came to be. I mean, what could be the motivation to artificially create a world like ours?


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