# The Confederate Flag



## Superior Watermelon (Jun 22, 2015)

With everything going on people are complaining about having the Confederate flag scrubbed of the face of the Earth. I feel like people should be able to fly that flag, it has deep roots in culture to this country, especially to the south, and people's ancestors died under fighting for their beliefs. Now I'm not saying I agree with slavery, but there was more to the civil war than just that. If people want the Confederate flag gone because of the negative history associated with it, shouldn't we just remove every flag then? Each flag has it's own culture and history associated with it whether it be good or bad, so why should one flag be banned (or whatever they want) because of the history of it and the fact that some crazies hijacked it. Am I wrong for thinking this? Am I crazy?


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## Bronchitis that Lingers (Jun 22, 2015)

Honestly my only issue with it, is that you have to watch where you're at when you fly it. People might be appalled if they see the flag, and don't know that the person flying it is just remembering history, but rather using it as a way to say "I wish the south would have won so we could have slaves". So I guess it entirely depends on the interpretation.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 22, 2015)

Superior Watermelon said:


> With everything going on people are complaining about having the Confederate flag scrubbed of the face of the Earth. I feel like people should be able to fly that flag, it has deep roots in culture to this country, especially to the south, and people's ancestors died under fighting for their beliefs. Now I'm not saying I agree with slavery, but there was more to the civil war than just that. If people want the Confederate flag gone because of the negative history associated with it, shouldn't we just remove every flag then? Each flag has it's own culture and history associated with it whether it be good or bad, so why should one flag be banned (or whatever they want) because of the history of it and the fact that some crazies hijacked it. Am I wrong for thinking this? Am I crazy?



I'd be down with banning all flags.

But to a black person living in the modern South, is it hard to imagine that the wrongs associated with the Confederate flag might seem a bit more real than the wrongs associated with, say, the flag of Mozambique?

And it's worth noting that nobody is proposing that private display of the flag should be illegal, so you're arguing against a strawman.


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## TheAmazingAxolotl (Jun 22, 2015)

Superior Watermelon said:


> With everything going on people are complaining about having the Confederate flag scrubbed of the face of the Earth. I feel like people should be able to fly that flag, it has deep roots in culture to this country, especially to the south, and people's ancestors died under fighting for their beliefs. Now I'm not saying I agree with slavery, but there was more to the civil war than just that. If people want the Confederate flag gone because of the negative history associated with it, shouldn't we just remove every flag then? Each flag has it's own culture and history associated with it whether it be good or bad, so why should one flag be banned (or whatever they want) because of the history of it and the fact that some crazies hijacked it. Am I wrong for thinking this? Am I crazy?



As someone who lives in the South, specifically Tennessee, all I can say is that in certain places it's not as common to see the Stars and Bars as one would think. The Deep South are the ones who hang on to "Southern heritage", Mississippi especially (of course, the state that didn't abolish slavery until 2013). However, I can't really say much on the matter; my ancestors (to my knowledge) took no part in the Civil War and got here somewhere around the time Reconstruction ended. My state is also home to five public statues dedicated to one Nathan Bedford Forrest, who as we know was the first bigwig of the KKK. Fucking Pulaski, Tennessee, man.

I would say that people should be allowed to fly the flag, mostly because it's a first amendment right. It was the flag of the Tennessee Army, the ensign of the Army of Northern Virginia, the Confederate naval jack, and so many more things; it's also a symbol of pride. Southern pride by and large is probably about as taboo as white pride; the "white race" has done too much wrong to be proud of their heritage, and the South isn't allowed to be proud simply because their rebellion failed. You can see the pattern in this:  the people that flew the flag failed, so no one's allowed to fly it without offending people. We see this in Germany (for obvious reasons), not just with the flag of the Third Reich, but also with the flag of the German Empire from World War I.

A flag on its own cannot be bigoted. While those 11 states that flew the bonnie blue flag that bears a single star did in fact explicitly state that among their intentions was to preserve slavery, we have to remember that it was people who wanted that rebellion. Just like people wanted the Jews in Europe exterminated, people that enslaved other people, and it was a person who killed those 9 black people with the intention of starting a race war. Take these people away, the flag no longer has any meaning outside of what is said in history texts. If Southerners can't fly the Stars and Bars for their heritage, no one can fly any sort of flag for their heritage, because every single country in this world that proudly flies their flag has been responsible for some pretty questionable shit.


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## XYZpdq (Jun 22, 2015)

I've known black guys who wore it because they were just as big a redneck as any other person. 

I think a lot of it is people looking for shit to throw  a fit over, but I went to Jefferson Davis Middle School so I might not be the best judge of it.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 22, 2015)

As a former southerner, I can assure anyone reading this that to most black people, the confederate flag is to them as a swastika is to Jews.  The people that fly it do so strictly out of racial hatred, not to celebrate their heritage.  That's just the lie they say to get away with it, since those damn northerners and liberals won't let them say what they truly think these days.  

As for me, I see the confederate flag as a sign of treachery.  If you love a country that no longer exists so much that you equate it's flag with that of the country you currently live in, perhaps you should ask yourself if you have any love for your current country since it outlaws that things that make the country you pine for so great in your mind.  If you want to fly it, that's cool.  Nobody appreciates more than me whenever someone is willing to let everyone around them know that they are a fucking idiot.  However, it should not be flown on state grounds.  Are there any other countries on the planet that have people flying the flag of a belligerent power fought in wartime that no longer exists?  This would be akin to people in France flying the Vichy France flag today.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 22, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Are there any other countries on the planet that have people flying the flag of a belligerent power fought in wartime that no longer exists?



You've seen the various Swastika-using Neonazi rallies around the world, right


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## KingGeedorah (Jun 22, 2015)

Yo this thread is easy...

Flags are and always will be dumb. Get more upset over cloth. Please. My sides are splitting.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 22, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> You've seen the various Swastika-using Neonazi rallies around the world, right



Indeed I have.  But like you said, around the world.  Not in Germany, Austria or any of the other countries that were so negatively affected by Nazi Germany that they subsequently outlawed Nazi imagery.  And not to mention, the US Civil War killed more combatants in one nation than any other war.  It just reeks of treason to me to show support for a nation that killed record numbers of your current country's citizens.


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 22, 2015)

Sure, the Confederate flag is a symbol of southern heritage & states' rights! A heritage of deliberate, organized racism, and the states' "rights" _to own people as livestock_.

Utter and complete bullshit.

Wear/fly it if you like, but keep in mind free speech goes both ways. Don't get all pissy when people call you out on it.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 22, 2015)

I don't understand why the black people in South Carolina don't just scale the flagpole and remove that thing themselves.  I'm amazed at the level of restraint the black community in the USA has shown in the wake of the bullshit they've had to deal with over the past year.  I'm aware of the rioting in Baltimore and Ferguson.  However, unlike the LA riots of the 90s, no white people were assaulted.  Whatever supremacy white nationalists think they possess is disproved by a willingness to murder over racial hatred.


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## KatsuKitty (Jun 22, 2015)

Glenn Beck said this morning it was a symbol of slavery.

_Glenn Beck._


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## Watcher (Jun 22, 2015)

https://static.kiwifarms.net/data/avatars/s/0/23.jpg?1394010477 A moment ago KatsuKitty:
confederate flag more like the confederate fag tahaaa
https://static.kiwifarms.net/data/avatars/s/0/23.jpg?1394010477 A moment ago KatsuKitty:
more like the cumfederate fag


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 22, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Indeed I have.  But like you said, around the world.  Not in Germany, Austria or any of the other countries that were so negatively affected by Nazi Germany that they subsequently outlawed Nazi imagery.



It happens in Russia, France, Yugoslavia, Poland, the Netherlands, all countries where the Nazis represented, to quote, "a belligerent power fought in wartime that no longer exists".  Millions of Russians died during the Nazi invasion and yet Russian neo-Nazis still happily wave the flag around.  Although no Russian federal subject has yet to make the Nazi flag one of its official state flags, I'll give them that.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 22, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> It happens in Russia, France, Yugoslavia, Poland, the Netherlands, all countries where the Nazis represented, to quote, "a belligerent power fought in wartime that no longer exists".  Millions of Russians died during the Nazi invasion and yet Russian neo-Nazis still happily wave the flag around.  Although no Russian federal subject has yet to make the Nazi flag one of its official state flags, I'll give them that.



Well you just nailed the most important overall point, the flying of the confederate flag is officially sanctioned by a state government in the USA.  And it's part of the Mississippi flag itself.  There really isn't any sort of equivalence that can be made regarding the Nazi flag and the use of the confederate flag in the USA on this point.  But on the other point you made, I guess some people are just really masochistic.


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## Some JERK (Jun 22, 2015)

I was born in the South. My great great grandfather was a Major in the confederacy. He was at Appomattox Courthouse with General Lee when he surrendered. The Confederate flag is directly part of my heritage, but it's not part of my _identity_ any more than the Betsy-Ross flag or the Union Jack. It's just a flag, so if it upsets people that much then get rid of it. Or don't. Whatever.

Though I do think the energy would be better focused on accomplishing something that actually _accomplishes something _beyond making people feel better.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 22, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Well you just nailed the most important overall point, the flying of the confederate flag is officially sanctioned by a state government in the USA.



Yes, but the interesting thing is that, while most of the controversy in the news surrounds the issue of the state government flying the flag, most people hear seem to prefer to argue about whether it's OK for private citizens to fly the flag, despite the fact that the overwhelming consensus in even the most "liberal" parts of the US commentariat seems to be that, yes, people should be allowed to fly Confederate flags if they want to.


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## Marvin (Jun 22, 2015)

Some JERK said:


> I was born in the South. My great great grandfather was a Major in the confederacy. He was at Appomattox Courthouse with General Lee when he surrendered. The Confederate flag is directly part of my heritage, but it's not part of my _identity_ any more than the Betsy-Ross flag or the Union Jack. It's just a flag, so if it upsets people that much then get rid of it. Or don't. Whatever.
> 
> Though I do think the energy would be better focused on accomplishing something that actually _accomplishes something _beyond making people feel better.


Eh, to use an analogy, it'd be like if the state motto was "Kikes non liceret!" (Google translate tells me that's latin for "no kikes allowed!") But don't worry, fellow citizens, it's only kept around for historical reasons!

It's not a huge waste of productivity to change it. And if it does end up being a waste of productivity, the responsibility for said waste is directly on the shoulders of the people resisting said change.


Dudeofteenage said:


> Yes, but the interesting thing is that, while most of the controversy in the news surrounds the issue of the state government flying the flag, most people hear seem to prefer to argue about whether it's OK for private citizens to fly the flag, despite the fact that the overwhelming consensus in even the most "liberal" parts of the US commentariat seems to be that, yes, people should be allowed to fly Confederate flags if they want to.


See, that is extremely weird to me.

Like seriously, no one is seriously proposing making it illegal to display the confederate flag. This is America, where the ACLU has fought for NAMBLA's first amendment rights. NAMBLA, for fucks sake. No one's trying to outlaw the confederate flag.

When people bring up the "muh freedoms" argument, I can only conclude they're either being deliberately obtuse or they're horribly ignorant about their country.


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## Some JERK (Jun 22, 2015)

Marvin said:


> Eh, to use an analogy, it'd be like if the state motto was "Kikes non liceret!" (Google translate tells me that's latin for "no kikes allowed!") But don't worry, fellow citizens, it's only kept around for historical reasons!
> 
> It's not a huge waste of productivity to change it. And if it does end up being a waste of productivity, the responsibility for said waste is directly on the shoulders of the people resisting said change.


I agree. And yeah, I totally understand the argument that the _State_ flying the Stars and Bars creates an environment where people feel that their own government is against them. But I don't think any government building should be allowed to fly the flag of another government anyway. The Confederacy is gone, so why does anyone need a Confederate flag anymore? My point was more that as someone with deep Confederate roots, I don't think that the "heritage" argument means anything, but I also know that getting rid of that flag isn't going to do much about actual racism in the South, so it'll make people feel better, (which is great) but that's about it.


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## Dr. Meme (Jun 22, 2015)

You should be able to hang up anything you want in your house. Doesn't mean you're not a giant prick but I respect the right for you to do that.


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 22, 2015)

"Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. Those that do are forced to _fix the same fuck-ups_ over and over again."  

-Unknown.


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## Marvin (Jun 22, 2015)

Some JERK said:


> I agree. And yeah, I totally understand the argument that the _State_ flying the Stars and Bars creates an environment where people feel that their own government is against them. But I don't think any government building should be allowed to fly a flag of another government anyway. The Confederacy is gone, so why does anyone need a Confederate flag anymore? My point was more that as someone with deep Confederate roots, I don't think that the "heritage" argument means anything, but I also know that getting rid of that flag isn't going to do much about actual racism in the South, so it'll make people feel better, (which is great) but that's about it.


Oh definitely. I completely agree. A different flag obviously wouldn't have foregone the Dylann Roof bullshit, for example

Mostly what I'm saying is that, if there's a controversy about removing the confederate flag from official government installations, that controversy is solely the fault of the people resisting the change.

The "what's the big deal? it's history!" crowd are being shitheads. Completely and indisputably shitheads.

Both the "it's our heritage!" arguments and the "muh freedoms" arguments are insulting.


Dr. Meme said:


> You should be able to hang up anything you want in your house. Doesn't mean you're not a giant prick but I respect the right for you to do that.


Heh, I'm reminded of the episode of Reno 911 when Big Mike had a yardsale with a nazi flag, and then Jones and Williams showed up, but because they couldn't arrest him for it, they ended up buying the flag off of them for $2.

"And the cops bought a nazi flag todayyy!!"


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## Hat (Jun 22, 2015)

I understand that the navy jack of the Confederacy has flown over certain government buildings in the South. In such cases I think the should be removed, not because of any racial implications, but simply because the flag was a symbol of a rebellion against the Federal Government. The battle flag is similarly incorporated into the state flag of Mississippi, and formerly in the state flag of Georgia, which now uses an altered version of the "Stars and Bars." As to whether or not these flags should change ought be left to the voters of the states to decide, in my opinion, based on whether or not the inclusion of these symbols is to be viewed as symbols of regional pride or of the dead Confederacy.

As for the symbols of the Confederacy appearing on memorials to Confederate soldiers, I think they ought remain for historical preservation's sake. To compare this to having memorials of the Third Reich is, frankly, silly.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 22, 2015)

Marvin said:


> See, that is extremely weird to me.



It's not at all weird to me.  This happens all the time, not least on the internet.

When you have somebody making a limited claim you disagree with, one of the most effective ways to refute it is to try to either associate their limited claim with a much more overarching, broad claim, or to simply act as if they had actually made the overarching, broad claim and leave it up to them to explain they didn't.

Here are a few well worn examples: "Gay people should be allowed to get married"  "You can't make me marry a gay guy!"

"Gun ownership should be restricted"  "You want to take away all our guns!"

"Europe should let in refugees from Africa"  "Bringing the whole population of Africa to Europe is ridiculous"

"This war isn't a good idea"  "Absolute pacifism will leave our country defenseless"

And my personal, and perennial, favourite.  "I think your opinion is wrong"  "I have a right to my opinion, stop trying to suppress my views!"

Etc etc etc.  I'm sure we can all think of our own examples.  The really sad part is not people doing this as a deliberate rhetorical strategy, but simply because they can't think in terms of relatively limited claims and default to hyperbole, so they don't even realise there's a difference between the limited and the broad arguments.


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## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 22, 2015)

I said it in the other thread but the south has so much good shit it came up with like William Faulkner, bbq, blues music, smoked brisket, jazz, college football supremacy, Zaxby's fried chicken, chic fil a, etc. why do they choose to display a flag from a failed rebellion as their pride?

Oh yeah, I'm from a rural part of Michigan and it is not uncommon to see a confederate flag flying in a person's yard or hung up in a college dorm room.  I never saw that shit in Los Angeles or NYC because white people there are better at hiding their racism there.


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## Marvin (Jun 22, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> It's not at all weird to me.  This happens all the time, not least on the internet.
> 
> When you have somebody making a limited claim you disagree with, one of the most effective ways to refute it is to try to either associate their limited claim with a much more overarching, broad claim, or to simply act as if they had actually made the overarching, broad claim and leave it up to them to explain they didn't.
> 
> ...


I understand the general principle: ignorant person, desperate to cushion their feelings, resorts to very weak argument.

What I find weird is that people are so very disconnected from the rest of the country. Even if your personal beliefs necessitate the confederate flag, how alienated can you be to think these sort of strategies are feasible?

That's what's weird to me.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 22, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Yes, but the interesting thing is that, while most of the controversy in the news surrounds the issue of the state government flying the flag, most people hear seem to prefer to argue about whether it's OK for private citizens to fly the flag, despite the fact that the overwhelming consensus in even the most "liberal" parts of the US commentariat seems to be that, yes, people should be allowed to fly Confederate flags if they want to.



Well, Dude, in this country, the idea of banning private citizens from displaying the flag in public is a conversation that is basically off limits.  I was amazed when I learned that some countries have actually banned the display of Nazi imagery.  That's an idea that would get shot down as "nanny state" politics here as you are simply supposed to know not to do that.  So goes the prevailing argument.  Obviously not everyone is on-board with the whole decency thing.  But by and large, you won't see the swastika here simply because we fought them in a major war, not for lack of racism.  That makes the flying of the confederate flag even more mystifying to me.  My attitude toward those people is they seem to favor some past imaginary country more than their current one.  Maybe they should go somewhere else to find it?

I favor letting people fly the confederate flag if they wish simply because, like warning colors on dangerous or poisonous animals, you know visually to stay away as far as possible without having to interact.


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 22, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> I favor letting people fly the confederate flag if they wish simply because, like warning colors on dangerous or poisonous animals, you know visually to stay away as far as possible without having to interact.



I agree.

I'm actually quite fond of Confederate flag or Swastika caps & T-shirts. That Stars n' Bars or spiral pattern is almost as good as a bullseye on their cranium or center of mass.


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## sugoi-chan (Jun 22, 2015)

If you want to be proud of your local heritage, fly your state flag. Or any number of county/city flags that exist. Don't fly a flag that's tinged with one of the worst aspects of American history. Heritage or not, it's a flag forever tied to chattel slavery and a war in which more Americans died than any other that was instigated by a separatist state to preserve the institution.


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 22, 2015)

Custom sticker printing at Office Depot: $30.
Transparent backing, "Confederate Blue" color & "Country Grrl" font upcharges: $30.
Being able to seamlessly add the phrase "God Bless Inbreeding!" to _one hundred_ Confederate flag bumper stickers and window decals?

Priceless.


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## DuskEngine (Jun 23, 2015)

It just seems strange to prefer _one _flag of the rapacious settler state that was the early US over another. I'm sure the stars and stripes causes some pretty bad feels in a lot of native americans too.


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## Shokew (Jun 23, 2015)

I hate to borrow a line from Insane Clown Posse, but fuck it - FUCK. YOUR. REBEL. FLAG.

Anything that represents slavery of people of my fucking skin color, like that fucking rebel flag, deserves nothing but my weariness, TBH.


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## Teddy (Jun 23, 2015)

Just remove the flag from govenment buildings. Simple. Pretty stupid and unprofessional for a flag that has many unfortunate implications flung in such places.

Although, I don't think the flag should be banned persay. If ignorant people want to fly the rebel flag and listen to Johnny Rebel while hoping that "The South will Rise Again!", so be it. Shows how stupid and backwards they are. They're a minority anyway. I've been to the South (Georgia, Mississippi, Florida to be exact)  and never saw a rebel flag in sight.


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## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 23, 2015)

Shokew said:


> I hate to borrow a line from Insane Clown Posse, but fuck it - FUCK. YOUR. REBEL. FLAG.
> 
> Anything that represents slavery of people of my fucking skin color, like that fucking rebel flag, deserves nothing but my weariness, TBH.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Well, Dude, in this country, the idea of banning private citizens from displaying the flag in public is a conversation that is basically off limits.



And yet that's the idea that people insist on arguing against despite the fact that nobody is advocating it.



Teddy said:


> JAlthough, I don't think the flag should be banned persay. If ignorant people want to fly the rebel flag and listen to Johnny Rebel while hoping that "The South will Rise Again!", so be it.



See?


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 23, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> And yet that's the idea that people insist on arguing against despite the fact that nobody is advocating it.



Well those people must have trouble reading.  Not surprising...after all, they are southern.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Well those people must have trouble reading.  Not surprising...after all, they are southern.



Aw come on, @Teddy is OK once you get to know him


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## Shokew (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Well those people must have trouble reading.  Not surprising...after all, they are southern.



Yeah, the North should just conquer and enslave the South already - so many problems would be fixed if the North dominated the entire US, right? Am I right?! I mean, they do know what's best and all for everyone......

..... Said only SJWs and their ilk.


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## Teddy (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm not a southerner btw. Pure Californian. I had the wrong idea and honestly thought that people were thinking about banning the flag. MSNBC and the rest of the news made it seem that way. I haven't been keeping track on this controversy.

the North is/are just as bad if not worst. They love demonizing the South despite never being there. Plus, as someone mentioned in this thread,  the racists there are good at masking their bigotry. At least in the South it's somewhat obvious. Thanks to stereotypes I suppose.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 23, 2015)

Teddy said:


> I'm not a southerner btw. Pure Californian. I had the wrong idea and honestly thought that people were thinking about banning the flag.



I take it you don't agree with @Captain Cid that the idea of banning the flag is inconceivable in the USA?


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 23, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> I take it you don't agree with @Captain Cid that the idea of banning the flag is inconceivable in the USA?



It would be nice in principle, but it runs aground some serious 1st Amendment issues.



Teddy said:


> I'm not a southerner btw. Pure Californian. I had the wrong idea and honestly thought that people were thinking about banning the flag. MSNBC and the rest of the news made it seem that way. I haven't been keeping track on this controversy.



I realized after I posted that it could be inferred I was referring to you since Dudeofteenage quoted you to support what he was saying, but I didn't mean for it to come off that way.  With all the idiots in the media talking about how "we can't ban the confederate flag from everywhere!", it's easy to understand how some people are mistaken that that argument is even being brought up in a legal sense.



Shokew said:


> Yeah, the North should just conquer and enslave the South already - so many problems would be fixed if the North dominated the entire US, right? Am I right?! I mean, they do know what's best and all for everyone............ Said only SJWs and their ilk.



I'm no SJW, just a former southerner who hated it there so much, I moved away.  Born in Mississippi, raised in Louisiana, I've spent my entire childhood in the region we are discussing from a solid month in Birningham, Alabama to repeated vacations in Florida, Georgia and Tennessee.  But I can't control what you think, so go ahead and make whatever assumptions you feel are necessary.  Maybe you should spend a few years in the south before you do.


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## Shokew (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> I'm no SJW, just a former southerner who hated it there so much, I moved away.  Born in Mississippi, raised in Louisiana, I've spent my entire childhood in the region we are discussing from a solid month in Birningham, Alabama to repeated vacations in Florida, Georgia and Tennessee.  But I can't control what you think, so go ahead and make whatever assumptions you feel are necessary.  Maybe you should spend a few years in the south before you do.



I've been living with family in South Carolina for some time now - in terms of political BS, it just stinks overall, TBH - so I know what you're getting at. Me? I don't like being dominated by Conservatives who hate women, black people (like myself), LGBTQs, and the like, overall. However, I've grown to like living here more than I did NJ...

However, once I finish college, I'm considering going back up North where the smarter folk and actual jobs for what I'm going to school for actually are, TBH with you. TOO BAD it wasn't any better, either. I spent my childhood in both Philadelphia and Southern New Jersey - let me tell you... IT SUCKED.


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## Teddy (Jun 23, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> I take it you don't agree with @Captain Cid that the idea of banning the flag is inconceivable in the USA?



The idea of the flag being banned doesn't seem that far-fetched imo. However, I believe most Americans (Southerner or not) would be against it. Not because they are for the flag and its negative implications, but because they don't want the government telling them that we can't own a flag because some people are offended by it. 

I could never live in the South @Captain Cid. Even though I'm right leaning, I don't want to be grouped up with ignorant people who give conservatives a bad name.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 23, 2015)

Shokew said:


> I've been living with family in South Carolina for some time now - in terms of political BS, it just stinks overall, TBH - so I know what you're getting at. Me? I don't like being dominated by Conservatives who hate women, black people (like myself), LGBTQs, and the like, overall. However, I've grown to like living here more than I did NJ...
> 
> However, once I finish college, I'm considering going back up North where the smarter folk and actual jobs for what I'm going to school for actually are, TBH with you. TOO BAD it wasn't any better, either. I spent my childhood in both Philadelphia and Southern New Jersey - let me tell you... IT SUCKED.



What part of South Carolina are you in? Do you find that racial tensions there have heightened over the past several months?  Despite being the first confederate state to turn traitor, South Carolina can be pretty, it has actual coastline unlike the tiny slivers of overpopulated beaches that Mississippi and Alabama have.  For those of you that have never been, Louisiana has no solid coastline.  It's all marsh.



Teddy said:


> The idea of the flag being banned doesn't seem that far-fetched imo. However, I believe most Americans (Southerner or not) would be against it. Not because they are for the flag and its negative implications, but because they don't want the government telling us that we can't own a flag. '
> 
> I could never live in the South @Captain Cid. Even though I'm right leaning, I don't want to be grouped up with ignorant people who give conservatives a bad name.



I'm against it only because I like the idea that idiots are willing to let me know they are idiots without me having to talk to them.  Conservatives in the south are a different breed.  I prefer the more libertarian minded conservatives that are found in western states, not people who are overly concerned about "culture war".


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## Teddy (Jun 23, 2015)

Most Southern conservatives only seem to be concern with trivial social issues that are obsolete. 1980s Conspiracy theories comes to mind. Or how Obama has ties to Alinsky, and his name is actually Barry. I don't even like the man and I'm sure he has a sketchy background, but come on. This isn't 2008 anymore.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 23, 2015)

Teddy said:


> The idea of the flag being banned doesn't seem that far-fetched imo.



You guys need to get your stories straight.


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 23, 2015)

Teddy said:


> The idea of the flag being banned doesn't seem that far-fetched imo.



In what country?  It would be flagrantly unconstitutional.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 23, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> In what country?  It would be flagrantly unconstitutional.



I'll tell you in which country, in the America of Barack HUSSEIN Obama, the Kenyan born socialist who wants to take your guns, give your money to the Chinese, make your dear old grandma plead for her life in front of a death panel, something something Benghazi, and ban the display of the Confederate flag.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 23, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> I'll tell you in which country, in the America of Barack HUSSEIN Obama, the Kenyan born socialist who wants to take your guns, give your money to the Chinese, make your dear old grandma plead for her life in front of a death panel, something something Benghazi, and ban the display of the Confederate flag.



You forgot FEMA camps.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> You forgot FEMA camps.



I am but a man.


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## JU 199 (Jun 23, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> I'll tell you in which country, in the America of Barack HUSSEIN Obama, the Kenyan born socialist who wants to take your guns, give your money to the Chinese, make your dear old grandma plead for her life in front of a death panel, something something Benghazi, and ban the display of the Confederate flag.



You forgot secret Muslim.


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## DrChristianTroy (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Indeed I have.  But like you said, around the world.  Not in Germany, Austria or any of the other countries that were so negatively affected by Nazi Germany that they subsequently outlawed Nazi imagery.


True. Where instead of flying a Swastika flag white power rallies have used the Confederate flag as a substitute. Shit's racist as fuck. Take it down, piss off a few rednecks, and move on.


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## sugoi-chan (Jun 23, 2015)

DrChristianTroy said:


> True. Where instead of flying a Swastika flag white power rallies have used the Confederate flag as a substitute. Shit's racist as fuck. Take it down, piss off a few rednecks, and move on.



My favorite is when they combine the two!







Cause nothing says "I have no idea what I'm talking about, do not take me seriously" like throwing together a whole bunch of symbols that don't even come close to representing the same concepts as proof of your pride or whatever.

The worst part of this picture is that it was taken in New Jersey, my home state. _We never seceded you fucking hillbilly._


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## Shokew (Jun 23, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> What part of South Carolina are you in? Do you find that racial tensions there have heightened over the past several months?  Despite being the first confederate state to turn traitor, South Carolina can be pretty, it has actual coastline unlike the tiny slivers of overpopulated beaches that Mississippi and Alabama have.  For those of you that have never been, Louisiana has no solid coastline.  It's all marsh.



I'm living in the Myrtle Beach area, so it's not like I'm bored or anything. Still, someday I'll have to move somewhere more... Progressive, or better yet, intelligent, especially since it gets boring as fuck here after Summer. 

I'm glad you got out of your bad situation when you did, I'll admit - so I know where you're coming from, or so I'd like to think.


----------



## Anchuent Christory (Jun 23, 2015)

It's one of those situations where the more you suggest that somebody shouldn't be doing something, the more the other side will go out of their way to do it.
All these people know is that the other side doesn't like something, so by golly we're gonna show 'em.

Kinda like those folk who outfit their trucks to spew black exhaust fumes in defiance of the suggestion that they should really be more eco friendly.


----------



## Marvin (Jun 23, 2015)

Heh, if anyone remembers David Cross' fued with Larry the Cable Guy, David Cross wrote an open letter to Larry the Cable Guy which is a really great (if somewhat long) read on its own. But regardless, I found this section to be pretty relevant:


			
				David Cross said:
			
		

> Since I was a kid I’ve always been a little over sensitive to the glorification and rewarding of dumb. The “salt of the earth, regular, every day folk” (or lowest common denominator) who see the world, and the people like me in it, as on some sort of secular mission to take away their flag lapels and plaster-of-paris jesus television adornments strike me as childishly paranoid.



I see confederate heritage nonsense as a desperate attempt to hold onto their honor. Like, they lost, but they still want to feel like they have some control over the situation. We're still here! They haven't killed us yet!

And, while I can sympathize with the general emotions they're expression, I just have to tell them: dude, you're more than just a weird, racist southerner. You can let it go. Just... let it go.

It's a weird expression of conservatism that their identity is so tied to their history. They focus on that in lieu of an identity tied to things recent or personal.


----------



## Tookie (Jun 23, 2015)

Historical trivia: The Confederate flag usually flown is the battle flag of the CSA. The national flag of the CSA went through several versions but this was the one in use in later years of the Civil War:



It was dubbed the "White Man's Flag" by its designer and the large white field represented "the supremacy of the white man."

Also, while the Confederate constitution granted wide latitude to member states to create legislation, it did specifically override state's rights in one notable area: states could never move towards abolition or restricting ownership of slaves.

But it totally isn't racist guys.


----------



## Morbid Boredom (Jun 23, 2015)

Anecdotes are not data, but I once met a young black man at a very liberal college (We were both visitors.  This college was so liberal, there were College Greens, College Democrats, but no College Republicans) who wore a Confederate Battle Flag as a patch.

Where I'm from, the Battle Flag is seen as super-racist*, so I asked him why he wore it.

He told me he was well-aware the flag was used by bigots that wished him harm, perhaps even death, but he interpreted the flag as a flag of resistance against authority, not exclusively as a flag of subjugation.

In that context, it made some sense: He viewed those bigots the same way those bigots viewed the  Federal government: as a dangerous gang of bullies, who do as they wish, hiding behind their uniforms and their guns... and the Battle Flag was as good a symbol as any to say "Fuck you" right back at them.

*I am adamantly against banning the flag. One, freedom of speech, motherfucker; Two, it makes it easier for me to identify people I don't wish to associate with.


----------



## Bronchitis that Lingers (Jun 24, 2015)

Morbid Boredom said:


> *I am adamantly against banning the flag. One, freedom of speech, motherfucker; Two, it makes it easier for me to identify people I don't wish to associate with.



This is exactly why I'm against banning it; freedom of speech. Set the precedent that you can abolish a flag based on an interpretation of it, and more freedoms will dissolve. What if someone is passionately anti government, and has an anarchy flag in their front lawn? Yeah it's dumb, but would it be right to outright ban someone from flying it? Or outlaw wearing sleeveless jean jackets with anarchy patches? It has the potential to snowball over time. 

I've only seen the confederate flag flown once outside of DC, so my views on this are very skewed. I do live in the south now, but I was raised in the southwest. Until I saw the flag being flown (it was around nine years ago, visiting family), I honestly didn't know it was still a thing. The area I live now, I guarantee flying the flag would start a shitstorm and not be tolerated, but I don't live in an area that's predominantly white/full of people that would consider this "ok". I've never seen concequence come of it, unlike others have. It's my own personal bias due to ignorance on the matter.

Regardless, it shouldn't be banned. Banning it sends a worse message than the flag itself.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 24, 2015)

Once again: Nobody is suggesting banning the flag, and yet we've still got people devoting time and energy to explaining why they shouldn't.

While you're at it, what's your opinion on giving guns to unicorns?


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## Morbid Boredom (Jun 24, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Once again: Nobody is suggesting banning the flag, and yet we've still got people devoting time and energy to explaining why they shouldn't.



No one in this forum is suggesting a ban, but plenty of people have suggested it elsewhere -usually comparing the stars-and-bars to the swastika and ignoring that the US is a very different country than Germany.



> While you're at it, what's your opinion on giving guns to unicorns?



Over-and-Under is best pony.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 24, 2015)

Morbid Boredom said:


> No one in this forum is suggesting a ban, but plenty of people have suggested it elsewhere -usually comparing the stars-and-bars to the swastika and ignoring that the US is a very different country than Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> Over-and-Under is best pony.



The "stars and bars" is not the confederate battle flag and never was.  That refers to the actual flag of the CSA:







The confederate battle flag was only popularized as a symbol for the confederacy in the early 20th century.  And it is indeed equivalent as a symbol of hate for black people in the USA as the swastika of Nazi Germany is for Jews.  Yes, the USA and Germany are indeed different countries but a symbol of institutionalized hate is a symbol of institutionalized hate.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 24, 2015)

Morbid Boredom said:


> No one in this forum is suggesting a ban, but plenty of people have suggested it elsewhere



Have they?  I've seen people complaining about it being displayed over a public building - that's what this current controversy stems from - but not that it should be outlawed.



Captain Cid said:


> The "stars and bars" is not the confederate battle flag and never was.  That refers to the actual flag of the CSA:



We had this argument in the forum, and I think you're being pedantic.  "Stars and Bars" is a nickname, and as such it doesn't really have a 'correct' use.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 24, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Have they?  I've seen people complaining about it being displayed over a public building - that's what this current controversy stems from - but not that it should be outlawed.
> 
> 
> 
> We had this argument in the forum, and I think you're being pedantic.  "Stars and Bars" is a nickname, and as such it doesn't really have a 'correct' use.



I'm not being pedantic, I'm being correct.  The term "stars and bars" was used, during the existence of the CSA, to describe their flag by it's citizens as to separate it from the flag of the USA, the stars and stripes.


----------



## Morbid Boredom (Jun 24, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Have they?  I've seen people complaining about it being displayed over a public building - that's what this current controversy stems from - but not that it should be outlawed.



The Washington Post sums it up.

Lawyers Guns and Money is a fairly popular blog and would like to see an actual ban (not merely the _de facto _ban that will come if all major retailers stick to their declarations they will not sell products with the flag on it) of the flag -this was months ago, and the blogger wasn't riled up by proximity to a tragedy.

Other than that, it's the usual suspects, the feels before reals crowd.  And Esquire.  I got plenty of hits by googling "Confederate Flag" and "Treason".  If it is treason, it is illegal, and I infer those columnists want the Battle Flag to be outlawed.



> We had this argument in the forum, and I think you're being pedantic.  "Stars and Bars" is a nickname, and as such it doesn't really have a 'correct' use.



I deserve the embarrassment, I should know better -I _did_ pedantically refer to it as the Battle Flag in this thread!


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 24, 2015)

I've seen some people complaining on the 'net about Ebay, Warner Brothers, Amazon, Sears, Etsy, Target, Wal-mart, etc. banning  the sale of Confederate flag merchandise & clothing.

I don't see what the problem is. You can still get your Confederate flag t-shirt. I'm sure whoever sewn your Klan robes will appreciate the side job.


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## Marvin (Jun 24, 2015)

Morbid Boredom said:


> The Washington Post sums it up.
> 
> Lawyers Guns and Money is a fairly popular blog and would like to see an actual ban (not merely the _de facto _ban that will come if all major retailers stick to their declarations they will not sell products with the flag on it) of the flag -this was months ago, and the blogger wasn't riled up by proximity to a tragedy.
> 
> Other than that, it's the usual suspects, the feels before reals crowd.  And Esquire.  I got plenty of hits by googling "Confederate Flag" and "Treason".  If it is treason, it is illegal, and I infer those columnists want the Battle Flag to be outlawed.


See, again, this would not fly, legally. Discussing this as if it's something to worry about is paranoid and ignorant.

No judge could conflate displaying the confederate flag with actual, prosecutable treason.

@Dudeofteenage comparison about the controversy of giving guns to unicorns is very apt.


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## AnOminous (Jun 24, 2015)

Morbid Boredom said:


> Other than that, it's the usual suspects, the feels before reals crowd.  And Esquire.  I got plenty of hits by googling "Confederate Flag" and "Treason".  If it is treason, it is illegal, and I infer those columnists want the Battle Flag to be outlawed.



It is a literal flag of treason.  That's what it stands for.  That's a lot different than saying that flying it actually constitutes the a violation of criminal statutes prohibiting treason.  Similarly, building a statue of Benedict Arnold would be building a statue of a traitor, but it wouldn't subject you to arrest for treason.



The Knife's Husbando said:


> I've seen some people complaining on the 'net about Ebay, Warner Brothers, Amazon, Sears, Etsy, Target, Wal-mart, etc. banning  the sale of Confederate flag merchandise & clothing.



I think it's silly posturing that will accomplish nothing.  Frankly, I think they're going to cash in on the panicked idiots who will stockpile Confederate flags or buy them at inflated prices based on "Obama gonna take yer flags."  Then one or more of these outlets will go right back to selling them again as soon as the hoopla dies down.

If not, someone will be move in to fill any market need.

I also wonder exactly how serious they're going to get about it, because they are bound to get fucking ridiculous.  Will they make it impossible to buy Confederate units for tabletop gaming, for instance?  There are any number of entirely legitimate reasons to want to purchase such items.

In any event, there is never going to be a future where anyone says:  "Hey, remember when there was racism, but then Amazon stopped selling Confederate flags and it went away?"


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## Picklechu (Jun 24, 2015)

It belongs in a museum and shouldn't be flown by government entities. Yes, it's a piece of history, and, yes, individuals have a right to display it if they so choose (although they are not protected from people's reactions to said display), but it's a sign of racism and treason. One could make the argument that the Civil War was about more than just slavery, but the people who argue that it wasn't about slavery at all are either willfully ignoring evidence, knowingly lying, or are just stupid. 

As for retailers like Wal-Mart and Amazon refusing to sell merchandise with the Confederate flag on it, they have every right to do so. The people who are claiming that this somehow violates their rights are pretty funny to watch.

I'm from Alabama. I've stood on the exact spot where Jefferson Davis was inaugurated as the president of the Confederacy. (My freshman year of college, I could walk out the door of my dorm, go two-hundred feet, and be where the Stand in the Schoolhouse Door took place.) About three hours ago, the governor ordered the flags around the Confederate war memorial--which is located on the grounds of the Capitol--taken down. The media is covering it obsessively, mostly because it's a slow news day and because it fits into the national narrative, but really, no one down here cares about the Confederate flag other than a handful of crazy people. Most people are glad to see it go (not to the point of jumping up and down or anything, because, as I said, no one really gives much of a shit, but the reaction is generally positive).


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 24, 2015)

Lotta people seem to think the concept of the Confederate flag as people's "heritage" is bullshit.

The problem is, _it isn't_.

Their great-grandfathers shot at people to keep slavery legal, their grandfathers attended lynchings, their fathers maned the hoses & dogs during the marches, and they want to keep up with the traditions.


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## Zeorus (Jun 24, 2015)

This is one instance in which I disagree with many of my fellow leftists who believe that shaming people for any reason is wrong.  Shame the fuck out of these idiots who fly this flag as a symbol of anti-authoritarianism or of "states' rights".  Let the whole world know that they are bigoted, vile, or just stupid.


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## Some JERK (Jun 24, 2015)

Zeorus said:


> This is one instance in which I disagree with many of my fellow leftists who believe that shaming people for any reason is wrong.  Shame the fuck out of these idiots who fly this flag as a symbol of anti-authoritarianism or of "states' rights".  Let the whole world know that they are bigoted, vile, or just stupid.


The problem with most of the people you're talking about is that they think the rest of the world beyond the South sucks and everybody in it is a delusional coward. You can't really shame them unless you somehow shame them to their peers, which... yeah good luck with that.


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## Zeorus (Jun 24, 2015)

Some JERK said:


> The problem with most of the people you're talking about is that they think the rest of the world beyond the South sucks and everybody in it is a delusional coward. You can't really shame them unless you somehow shame them to their peers, which... yeah good luck with that.



Good point.  I hadn't thought of that, not being from the South myself.


----------



## Space_Dandy (Jun 24, 2015)

I'd like to mention that I am a member of the US Air Force. My patriotism over the years has reached both extremes of the spectrum. One thing I am not is a blind follower of the government. Went down that road before and found that our leaders are shortsighted, greedy, and protected by a thick clout of bureaucracy and obfuscation. However, I will give them credit where credit is due. Despite all the corruption that goes unreported in the military and the government as a whole, we still have one of the most free countries in the world. Also opportunity here is still great. This is why I can still feel good about serving. We haven't completely gone to hell yet, but I know there are a lot of people at the helm who are trying.

It never made much sense to me why one could under the same law have protected free speech against the state, but can't fly certain flags (or destroy our own). This comment I would never make to my peers, many of whom immediately feel an intense emotional connection between the flag and those sacrifices that have 'kept it flying.' This never made sense to me. If I die in combat, it sure as hell isn't for some cloth flag. Its for the freedom and opportunity that our country offers. Can a flag embody all of that complexity? I don't think so.

But what if it does? I know to a lot of people believe it does. Should we limit our freedom of speech just to appease them? By them I mean our military and the most patriotic of citizens. Of course not! What is the point of me dying to protect freedom of speech if we are just going to weaken freedom of speech just to protect my feelings?

Hurt my feelings please! Thats how I know we have done a good job protecting freedom of speech. If someone gets locked up for burning an American flag, or for flying a Confederate flag, then I feel like my buddies and I are sacrificing ourselves in vain.

One final note, as a Christian, the Bible makes it clear that images are to be avoided. There is nothing good about investing emotional and spiritual energy in a symbol. Its unhealthy and often leads us to jeopardizing our priorities. I may wear a cross, in the same way the one might wear a hat that says "I am a Christian" but I do not believe that it contains spiritual energy or importance.

Faith can't be confined to one object.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

IronJustice said:


> one might wear a hat that says "I am a Christian"



Please tell me people actually do that


----------



## Space_Dandy (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Please tell me people actually do that








Close enough.


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## Surtur (Jun 25, 2015)

You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.


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## sugoi-chan (Jun 25, 2015)

Surtur said:


> You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.



Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.


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## Red_Rager (Jun 25, 2015)

sugoi-chan said:


> Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.


I live in the Northeast and when I was in Maine I've seen some houses decked up in Confederate gear. Doesn't happen very often but those people exist.


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## Some JERK (Jun 25, 2015)

Surtur said:


> You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.





sugoi-chan said:


> Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.


It makes all the sense in the world really. The primary role of a flag is to signal your identity  to strangers and allies in unfamiliar/hostile territory.


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## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 25, 2015)

Let's just clear this issue up. 

Direct quote from an editorial published on May 4th, 1863 by William T. Thompson, then editor of the      _Savannah Morning News, _who co-designed the Confederate flag with blockade runner William R. Postell:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag should soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism."


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

sugoi-chan said:


> Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.



For all that the flag's defenders say it signifies Southern Heritage, and that's clearly true for some people, to many others it seems to be more of a symbol of broader anti-government conservatism.

Edit: Although clearly there's massive crossover between those two concepts.


----------



## HG 400 (Jun 25, 2015)

Superior Watermelon said:


> Now I'm not saying I agree with slavery



Wait, what's wrong with slavery? Are you black or something?


----------



## Shokew (Jun 25, 2015)

Surtur said:


> You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.



Cosmopolitan Influence and an influx of people from the North moving down South are two possible factors of that. These Confeditards are likely just hiding from you.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> For all that the flag's defenders say it signifies Southern Heritage, and that's clearly true for some people, to many others it seems to be more of a symbol of broader anti-government conservatism.



No, the confederate flag isn't a symbol of anti-government conservatism.  That would be the "dont tread on me" Gadsden flag.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag

Anyone displaying the confederate flag is doing so purely out of racial hatred.  Or in other words:



The Knife's Husbando said:


> Let's just clear this issue up.
> 
> Direct quote from an editorial published on May 4th, 1863 by William T. Thompson, then editor of the      _Savannah Morning News, _who co-designed the Confederate flag with blockade runner William R. Postell:
> 
> "As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag should soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism."


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> No, the confederate flag isn't a symbol of anti-government conservatism.  That would be the "dont tread on me" Gadsden flag.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag
> 
> Anyone displaying the confederate flag is doing so purely out of racial hatred.  Or in other words:



It is beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can't stand for something because there is another flag that does so as well.

It's also pretty silly to judge people based on a 150 year old quote from a person that said people have probably never even heard of.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> It is beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can't stand for something because there is another flag that does so as well.
> 
> It's also pretty silly to judge people based on a 150 year old quote from a person that said people have probably never even heard of.



No, actually it's beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can stand for anything other than racism when racism is the very concept that the confederacy was based on.  Once upon a time, the swastika symbolized good luck and fortune.  It's current symbolism, however, completely drowns out any other meaning it may possess.  Same with the confederate flag.

So you're saying it's silly to interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with that of one of it's designers?  That's strange.


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> No, actually it's beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can stand for anything other than racism when racism is the very concept that the confederacy was based on.  Once upon a time, the swastika symbolized good luck and fortune.  It's current symbolism, however, completely drowns out any other meaning it may possess.  Same with the confederate flag.
> 
> So you're saying it's silly to interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with that of one of it's designers?  That's strange.



So, just to be clear, you're saying: 

The confederate flag's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's original meaning (I.e, a racists being racist.)

But the swastika's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's "current symbolism."

I think there's a flaw in your logic (and ideology) here. Doesn't the second idea clash with the original one? And doesn't the second one sort of dismantle the idea that flag's original meaning is the only meaning that it can currently have?


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> So, just to be clear, you're saying:
> 
> The confederate flag's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's original meaning (I.e, a racists being racist.)
> 
> ...



Well when the historical meaning of the racist flag matches it's current one, yes, it can only be interpreted to mean when it was meant to and what it currently does.  You did see the photo of white supremacists holding it?  After all, it was the Klan that popularized it's usage in the early 20th century. The idea that the flag can mean anything else other than representing racism is a newer interpretation being applied retroactively.


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

And what I'm saying regarding the flag's meaning is that it's silly to *only *interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with it's designers. I guarantee that if you ask 9/10 people who fly the flag of the confederacy for whatever reason that they have literally no clue who William R. Postell was or what his racial politics are. Instead, to them, the flag represents whatever their parents or their parents' parents told them it represents. You can call them ignorant all that you'd like, but saying that they're racists because of a flag honestly gives them too much credit by assuming that they are well-read enough to know it's history.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> And what I'm saying regarding the flag's meaning is that it's silly to *only *interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with it's designers. I guarantee that if you ask 9/10 people who fly the flag of the confederacy for whatever reason that they have literally no clue who William R. Postell was or what his racial politics are. Instead, to them, the flag represents whatever their parents or their parents' parents told them it represents. You can call them ignorant all that you'd like, but saying that they're racists because of a flag honestly gives them too much credit by assuming that they are well-read enough to know it's history.



It doesn't matter if you know who Henry Ford is.  A car will still work when you try to use it.  Saying that people who fly the flag not knowing the names of the designers means that they are therefore not using it in a manner intended by the designer is a meaningless argument. 

People can say whatever they want about why they're flying the flag aside from racism.  They're lying.  I know, I lived in the south for many years and every person I encountered who flew that flag was a flagrant racist.  The people who ignore what the flag actually means are, by definition, ignorant.  It doesn't represent what their parents told them it does.  If I raise children to believe that the Union Jack represents Russia, does that mean it actually does?  No, it means me and my children would be ignorant.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> No, the confederate flag isn't a symbol of anti-government conservatism.  That would be the "dont tread on me" Gadsden flag.



It's possible to have two different symbols for the same idea.

Although I would be interested to know what you thought the chap who designed this was expressing:



Spoiler: WORLDS COLLIDING


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## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Well when the historical meaning of the racist flag matches it's current one, yes, it can only be interpreted to mean when it was meant to and what it currently does.



First, this argument is completely recursive. You're just telling that's it can only be interpreted in a particular way because you believe that it can only be interpreted in a way. 



> You did see the photo of white supremacists holding it?  After all, it was the Klan that popularized it's usage in the early 20th century. The idea that the flag can mean anything else other than representing racism is a newer interpretation being applied retroactively.



I've also seen John Lewis and Kanye West holding it. Are they racists too? It's an extreme example but it points to how the meaning of symbols are much more nuanced than "I'm a racist" or "I'm not."


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> It's possible to have two different symbols for the same idea.
> 
> Although I would be interested to know what you thought the chap who designed this was expressing:
> 
> ...



Looks to me like he is expressing some quality photoshop skills.  That's not an actual historical flag, I assume?



Yellow Yam Scam said:


> First, this argument is completely recursive. You're just telling that's it can only be interpreted in a particular way because you believe that it can only be interpreted in a way.
> 
> 
> I've also seen John Lewis and Kanye West holding it. Are they racists too? It's an extreme example but it points to how the meaning of symbols are much more nuanced than "I'm a racist" or "I'm not."



No, I'm telling you it can only be interpreted a specific way because it was designed with that intention, repopularized with the same idea, and used in modern times by the people it appeals to (white supremacists).  To pretend that he confederate flag represents anything other than racism makes zero sense.

So if a black man is holding the flag, that means he agrees with it?  That's a pretty liberal interpretation of a photograph.  What if the photo in question is of someone holding something while they are talking in a negative manner about it?  What if Kanye West, while holding the flag, was saying something like "fuck this thing"?


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> It doesn't matter if you know who Henry Ford is.  A car will still work when you try to use it.  Saying that people who fly the flag not knowing the names of the designers means that they are therefore not using it in a manner intended by the designer is a meaningless argument.



But if Henry Ford wrote that cars should only be used for transporting turnips, does that mean that by driving a car that you believe that cars can only be used for transporting turnips? No, because perhaps your mother, or your mother's mother told you one day that cars are useful for other things and you saw the sense in that.  You can say it's meaningless but I don't see the sense in assuming that someone follows beliefs that they've never heard of. 



> People can say whatever they want about why they're flying the flag aside from racism.  They're lying.  I know, I lived in the south for many years and every person I encountered who flew that flag was a flagrant racist.  The people who ignore what the flag actually means are, by definition, ignorant.  It doesn't represent what their parents told them it does.  If I raise children to believe that the Union Jack represents Russia, does that mean it actually does?  No, it means me and my children would be ignorant.



This is exactly my point. You'd be ignorant, but not _racists_. Most people who fly the Confederate Flag are stupid and uneducated ("Rednecks," for short) but, as someone who, like you, has spent a lot of time in the south, I haven't seen anything out of them to indicate that they are racists. They are entirely too boring and mainstream to be actual racists.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Looks to me like he is expressing some quality photoshop skills.  That's not an actual historical flag, I assume?



Not that I know of!  But seriously, folks...

While I take your point about the Gadsden Flag, flags are ultimately just another type of symbol.  As Derrida said, the interpretation of symbols is free flowing.  The least facet of this is that just as one flag can symbolise multiple ideas, multiple flags can symbolise overlapping, or even identical, ideas.  The Stars and Bars and the Gadsden Flag are excellent examples of this.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> But if Henry Ford wrote that cars should only be used for transporting turnips, does that mean that by driving a car that you believe that cars can only be used for transporting turnips? No, because perhaps your mother, or your mother's mother told you one day that cars are useful for other things and you saw the sense in that.  You can say it's meaningless but I don't see the sense in assuming that someone follows beliefs that they've never heard of.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly my point. You'd be ignorant, but not _racists_. Most people who fly the Confederate Flag are stupid and uneducated ("Rednecks," for short) but, as someone who, like you, has spent a lot of time in the south, I haven't seen anything out of them to indicate that they are racists. They are entirely too boring and mainstream to be actual racists.



My position still stands, it does not matter than the people who fly the confederate flag are not aware of the names of it's designers.  That has no bearing on the situation and you're really reaching by saying that.

The reason you don't see anything about them being racist is that they cannot express this opinion openly and directly anymore.  Once upon a time, it was acceptable in polite society to say "i hate those damn niggers".  As cultural attitudes have changed, people that have this view learn that they cannot express it.  So now they fly the confederate flag.  There is only one reason to fly it outside of the south if you are not from the south.


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> No, I'm telling you it can only be interpreted a specific way because it was designed with that intention, repopularized with the same idea, and used in modern times by the people it appeals to (white supremacists).  To pretend that he confederate flag represents anything other than racism makes zero sense.



Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong but this is still completely recursive, right? He's just saying that the meaning didn't change because it didn't change.  



> So if a black man is holding the flag, that means he agrees with it?  That's a pretty liberal interpretation of a photograph.  What if the photo in question is of someone holding something while they are talking in a negative manner about it?  What if Kanye West, while holding the flag, was saying something like "fuck this thing"?



But yo, here's the trick: I'm not making any assumptions about what anyone believes concerning the flag, that's what _you're_ doing. I know what Kanye was trying to say, but only because he has told us ("Fuck this flag" is essentially correct, yes.) On the other hand, John Lewis, another black man, used it as a symbol of racial unity in the south. He told us this. Without being told, we don't know what Kanye is trying to say when he flies the flag of the confederacy and we don't know what Typical White Southerner is trying to say either. That's my belief. Your belief seems to be that using it makes people racist and I can't ride with that.

Is the Typical White Southerner trying to say "fuck the flag"? Uh, probably not, but there are hundreds of degrees between that and "Kill niggers" (Most of which are purely fashion statements) and it's inappropriate to paint all these people with the same brush.


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## HG 400 (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> No, I'm telling you it can only be interpreted a specific way because it was designed with that intention, repopularized with the same idea, and used in modern times by the people it appeals to (white supremacists).  To pretend that he confederate flag represents anything other than racism makes zero sense.



In the Baltic countries, the swastika is a still a sign of good luck and fortune. In the Soviet Union it meant anti-communism and anti-authoritarianism. In East Asia it's just a symbol of a militaristic regime seen as no different from Napoleon or Caesars. In Australia there are black gangs who fly it proudly because they feel it means power and strength.

Are good-natured Latvians, rebellious Russians, cosplaying Japanese and black Australian gang members all just anti-semetic neo-nazis who are lying about it, because it's inconceivable to you that a symbol could mean different things to different people?


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## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> My position still stands, it does not matter than the people who fly the confederate flag are not aware of the names of it's designers.  That has no bearing on the situation and you're really reaching by saying that.
> 
> The reason you don't see anything about them being racist is that they cannot express this opinion openly and directly anymore.  Once upon a time, it was acceptable in polite society to say "i hate those damn niggers".  As cultural attitudes have changed, people that have this view learn that they cannot express it.  So now they fly the confederate flag.  There is only one reason to fly it outside of the south if you are not from the south.







This is the Imperial Flag Of Japan. You probably know that this is essentially the Japanese equivalent of a swastika in the eyes of Koreans and Chinese (And was to the Japanese as well, about 50 years ago.)

Is the artist who created E. Honda's Street Fighter 2 stage a racist?





Is this cool, hip millennial a racist?





Is this mediocre band racist?









This Japanese Navy dude? Maybe! I never met the dude, he might really despise all Koreans. At one point this flag represented the need to stomp all Koreans out of existence, now it's seen as a shockingly forward-thinking bit of graphic design or a sign of good fortune.

Like the Imperial Flag Of Japan, it seems to me that the reason why the Confederate flag is so popular in the south is not because it a symbol of their racism, but because to most of them, it is such a benign and mainstreamed symbol that it's effectively meaningless, no different from a Rolling Stones logo on a t-shirt. To another percentage it is about southern pride, and certainly to others it is a symbol of their outright racism. But these are all different people from different communities with different beliefs or non-beliefs about what their silly little dead flag means.


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> It doesn't matter if you know who Henry Ford is.  A car will still work when you try to use it.



A car is a technological artifact with objective characteristics that would do the same thing on Mars or operated by energy beings from the planet Zoltan.  It doesn't mean anything, even if inferences could be made about the kind of beings that would create it and their purposes for doing so.

A symbol is entirely contextual.  I doubt the occasional black person who flies that flag is doing it out of internalized racism.

There are also contexts where using it is entirely neutral, such as when reenactors or tabletop gamers use it.  There it is solely used because it is actually connected to the relevant historical period.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong but this is still completely recursive, right? He's just saying that the meaning didn't change because it didn't change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My argument is not recursive.  What I'm saying is specifically this: the original meaning of the flag, as intended by it's designers, is the same meaning the flag has today, as intended by it's users.  Go to a white supremacy rally in the USA and if you fail to see one confederate flag there, I will admit to being wrong.  But I'm not.  Why?  Because it's used at white supremacy rallies for what it signifies.  

Something tells me that you've never been to the south and personally known the people who fly the confederate flag.  I do not feel it is inappropriate to paint them all with that brush at all.  Yes, using it is a racist sign and that's it's meaning today.  I say this not out of ideology but out of experience.  If there are people who do fly the confederate flag out of a reason other than "i hate niggers", I've never met them nor known them to exist.  And I've met many southerners who fly the flag.  

Yes, the meaning it has is only the meaning we give it.  But as a white person, I feel more sensitive about the flag than most black people do because it paints my heritage in a negative manner.  My last name is a regional one (Yes, Highwind has roots in the southern US) and I've had to deal many times with white people in the south who would assume I'm racist just because I'm obviously southern.  Once at my auto mechanic, while I was waiting in the lobby a black man came in to make a delivery that the boss had to sign for.  He was already engaged in a conversation with one of the many white people in the lobby.  While signing for the delivery, with a large black man less than 5 from him, he said out loud "the police ought to come to this area and arrest some of these crack niggers" to the person he was talking to.  Like the black guy wasn't even there.  I was horrified, but I couldn't say anything.  Welcome to Louisiana!

See, I've personally known racists who fly the flag and when asked about it cite "heritage", even though I know the truth of who they because they felt ok to express these opinions around me when I was a child.  I've seen the lie in action.

It's been great but unlike most days that I'm on the forum, I actually took off work today.


----------



## HG 400 (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Once at my auto mechanic, while I was waiting in the lobby a black man came in to make a delivery that the boss had to sign for.  He was already engaged in a conversation with one of the many white people in the lobby.  While signing for the delivery, with a large black man less than 5 from him, he said out loud "the police ought to come to this area and arrest some of these crack niggers" to the person he was talking to.  Like the black guy wasn't even there.  I was horrified, but I couldn't say anything.  Welcome to Louisiana!



Crack cocaine is an incredibly addictive drug that destroys communities and ruins lives. Violent and property crime skyrocket in neighborhoods where crack trafficking takes root and the streets can become notably dangerous to walk at night. Why wouldn't you want the police to come arrest more crack niggers and clear up your neighbourhood? 

Also I think it's incredibly racist that you just assumed the black guy in your story was a crack nigger himself and should therefore be offended by that. Not all black people smoke crack, y'know.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> In the Baltic countries, the swastika is a still a sign of good luck and fortune.



No it isn't.



Captain Cid said:


> My argument is not recursive.  What I'm saying is specifically this: the original meaning of the flag, as intended by it's designers, is the same meaning the flag has today, as intended by it's users.  Go to a white supremacy rally in the USA and if you fail to see one confederate flag there, I will admit to being wrong.



Nobody is arguing that the flag cannot be used to display racism.  We're just saying that that isn't its only possible use.  Why does the sincere intent of a white supremacist displaying the flag determine some kind of immutable truth, while the equally sincere (if clueless) intent of somebody using it to symbolise Southern pride, or conservative libertarianism, or Confederate heritage, or batfucking for that matter determine nothing?

Seriously man, I get what you're saying, and I agree that the original intent of the flag is too often obscured by those who use it.  But at the same time, you are really taking your point several steps too far.  As @AnOminous said, symbols are not mechanical devices, and they are ultimately always open to interpretation.  The interpretation is contextual with the society it takes place within, and some interpretations are extremely niche, but that doesn't mean that other interpretations are "correct", and it certainly doesn't mean that the actual intentions of people displaying the symbol are erased by some universal truth.


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> My argument is not recursive.  What I'm saying is specifically this: the original meaning of the flag, as intended by it's designers, is the same meaning the flag has today, as intended by it's users.  Go to a white supremacy rally in the USA and if you fail to see one confederate flag there, I will admit to being wrong.  But I'm not.  Why?  Because it's used at white supremacy rallies for what it signifies.



But the same thing applies to the swastika. You can still find Buddhists who use it as a sign of peace. That has no bearing on what nazis are using it for. I just don't see how what you're saying is logical, but I'll let it go.

This is from the first google search result for "confederate merchandise." I wouldn't see this and take it as evidence that none of them are racists, personally. This seems to identify them as goofy LARPers instead.


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## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> But the same thing applies to the swastika. You can still find Buddhists who use it as a sign of peace. That has no bearing on what nazis are using it for. I just don't see how what you're saying is logical, but I'll let it go.
> 
> This is from the first google search result for "confederate merchandise." I wouldn't see this and take it as evidence that none of them are racists, personally. This seems to identify them as goofy LARPers instead.
> View attachment 34089


The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.


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## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.


 
My experience with them tells me that the exact opposite is true. A great majority of the ones I've encountered are apolitical rednecks who wear and fly it because it's a chic thing to do in their discourse community.


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## Holdek (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.


When it was brought back in vogue in the 1960s as a banner against the Civil Rights Movement, this was certainly true.  Originally being from the South, I know a lot of people who use the Confederate Flag now and aren't racist.  They use it as a badge of pride-of-place.

But they are still ignorant assholes because they either don't know that its resuscitation as a cultural emblem after 100 years was done to oppose the Civil Rights Movement, or they otherwise just don't give a shit that it's painful symbol for blacks, especially blacks who are older.

It is amusing to watch them do cartwheels to try to claim that the flag wasn't about slavery or oppression of blacks, or even that the _Civil War itself_ wasn't about slavery ().  But, yeah, it's way past time to stop honoring it.


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## AnOminous (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.



[citation needed]


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## HG 400 (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> No it isn't.



Is it Finland I'm thinking of? I remember some kind of hassle when one of those chucklefuck countries tried to give Merkel a swastika.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> Is it Finland I'm thinking of? I remember some kind of hassle when one of those chucklefuck countries tried to give Merkel a swastika.



No idea.  But I can assure you that around these parts, displaying a Swastika is an evocation of Nazi Germany, be it negatively or (sadly) positively.


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## Holdek (Jun 25, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> Is it Finland I'm thinking of? I remember some kind of hassle when one of those chucklefuck countries tried to give Merkel a swastika.


Isn't @Joey Jo-Jo Junior a Finn?  Maybe he can weigh in on the chucklefuckery.


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## Squealer (Jun 25, 2015)

I heard one of you boys hates being white? That's like hating being of the negro race, it's fucking racist


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## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 25, 2015)

I'm from the south and not a racist, and the way you assume all people of a certain culture act and think the same way based only on the ones you've met seems pretty similar to racism, dude.


----------



## HG 400 (Jun 25, 2015)

dabluearmedbandit said:


> I'm from the south and not a racist, and the way you assume all people of a certain culture act and think the same way based only on the ones you've met seems pretty similar to racism, dude.



Prove you're not a racist. Post an incredibly autistic 500-word essay on how much you hate the confederate flag like all these other non-racist southerners did. Otherwise you're a racist and literally worse than the KKK.


----------



## Joey Jo-Jo Junior (Jun 25, 2015)

Holdek said:


> Isn't @Joey Jo-Jo Junior a Finn?  Maybe he can weigh in on the chucklefuckery.


Im a Dane. @Clown Doll is Finnish tho.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> This is the Imperial Flag Of Japan. You probably know that this is essentially the Japanese equivalent of a swastika in the eyes of Koreans and Chinese (And was to the Japanese as well, about 50 years ago.)
> 
> Is the artist who created E. Honda's Street Fighter 2 stage a racist?
> 
> ...



And I'm back from guitar center.

I have not spent time in east Asia and I am not very familiar with the cultures in that region.  Therefore I feel I am too ignorant of what you talk about to have any sort of opinion on it.  I'm just telling you my personal experiences from living in the southern USA, take it or leave it.  I do not understand what the point is over arguing semantics.  The fact is that in the southern USA, flying the flag means one thing.  I say that from experience.  If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your prerogative and more power to you for it.


----------



## Squealer (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> And I'm back from guitar center.
> 
> I have not spent time in east Asia and I am not very familiar with the cultures in that region.  Therefore I feel I am too ignorant of what you talk about to have any sort of opinion on it.  I'm just telling you my personal experiences from living in the southern USA, take it or leave it.  I do not understand what the point is over arguing semantics.  The fact is that in the southern USA, flying the flag means one thing.  I say that from experience.  If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your prerogative and more power to you for it.


That's pretty damn elitist


----------



## Cute Anime Girl (Jun 25, 2015)

Vandalizing memorials, of any kind, is fucked.

You can't erase history no matter how much it hurts your special snowflake feelings.

Also you people who think the South is still in the 1860s need to get your heads out of your asses.


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## KatsuKitty (Jun 25, 2015)

It's only a matter of time before we see this in re-runs of The Dukes of Hazzard:






Also, Apple is now removing Civil War games in the App Store....because they contain the Confederate flag.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Here's my issue with all this current hullabaloo over the Confederate Flag: Dylan Roof's actions are unforgivable regardless of what symbols he used as his trinkets, and attacking the symbols for causing the problem is absurd. The same thing happened when Charles Manson found hidden messages in the White Album telling him to start a race war. And rather than focusing on what actually causes troubled young women to flock to a mentally retarded demagogue who hears a voice telling him to kill Roman Polanski's wife, people focused their blame on the album.

This type of thing happens all the time, and it needs to come to an end. Hateful, retarded demagogues like Charles Manson, Dylan Roof, and Elliot Rodger are always gonna find new symbols to cloud themselves in. But its their philosophies and actions which are evil, not their adornments.

Its the same issue with the Confederate Flag. I'm never concerned with the symbols people choose to represent themselves with, I'm concerned with their beliefs and actions. Telling the Ron Pauls of the world taking down their Confederate Flag will take down their racism is both a lie and actively counterproductive. Instead, people need to directly attack the actual racist actions racists take, and attack the racist ideas they support. Or, to put it another way: when a man calls the police on an eleven year old negro and he happens to be wearing a Confederate Flag T-shirt, don't say he can make things good by getting rid of the T-shirt. Punish the motherfucker by sending him to the can for harassment, punish the police officer too if they hurt said eleven year old, and drill it into peoples heads that the constant harassment of black people is both morally wrong and won't be tolerated in this country.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Telling the Ron Pauls of the world taking down their Confederate Flag will take down their racism is both a lie and actively counterproductive.



Except that nobody is telling them that... oh, why do I even fucking bother.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Except that nobody is telling them that... oh, why do I even fucking bother.





KatsuKitty said:


> Also, Apple is now removing Civil War games in the App Store....because they contain the Confederate flag.


Your point?


----------



## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 25, 2015)

Spoiler: oh shit


----------



## Squealer (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Your point?


The point is that negros are getting pissed that the honkies have a flag they take pride in, much like how the negros have rap music, and weed


----------



## Locksnap (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Your point?


While Apples decision is moronic and unjust, its being done for commercial reasons rather than out of moralism. Nobody in Apple gives a shit one way or the other, its just a way of deflecting unwanted controversy.


----------



## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> My experience with them tells me that the exact opposite is true. A great majority of the ones I've encountered are apolitical rednecks who wear and fly it because it's a chic thing to do in their discourse community.


It's tricky to talk about the less explicit forms of racism because it's not something that can be proven. For example, when people use racially charged language, like talking about "welfare recipients" or "thugs" or things like that.

I usually avoid directly accusing people of racism when they use language like that because it's rarely productive. I try to talk about bigger issues. Also, I think most people guilty of misusing those terms do genuinely see themselves as being egalitarian. They just never consider that they might have personal biases impacting their actions.

So because of this, I try to be sympathetic. Getting into a slapfight over "you're racist!" versus "no, I just tell it like it is!" isn't very helpful.

However, when it comes to people displaying the confederate flag, I see a normal person, like I described above, who has the same biases everyone else has. Except the confederate flag says that they're basically giving up on even having a semblance of being egalitarian. They're just giving up.

To me, that's why I say that displaying the confederate flag almost certainly labels you as racist.

However, I'll note that my experiences are colored strongly by where I'm from. I'm from a rural part of a border state. Where I'm from, the confederate flag isn't an everyday thing. When someone here displays it, its meaning is essentially "fuck you".


*Asterisk* said:


> Your point?


Consumer boycotts are not the same thing as censorship. No one is telling you you can't have one. They're just telling you that they're not going to make you one.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Locksnap said:


> While Apples decision is moronic and unjust, its being done for commercial reasons rather than out of moralism. Nobody in Apple gives a shit one way or the other, its just a way of deflecting unwanted controversy.


I don't care about why they're doing it, I care that _they're doing it_. 

This happens every Goddamn time there's a sensationalized crime. It happened after Columbine when people blamed and censured Marilyn Manson and Doom for the crime of being the ornamentation of the two hateful, retarded, virgin chucklekfucks who caused that atrocity. It happened after Benghazi when people blamed a modern day _Manos: the Hands of Fate _for causing a terrorist attack. Now its 2015 and happening with the Confederate Flag. 

We've learned not a Goddamn thing. Hell, if anything, we're going backwards.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Your point?



My point is that nobody is advocating making display of the Confederate flag illegal.  Apple's decision to stop selling certain products doesn't change that.



Marvin said:


> I usually avoid directly accusing people of racism when they use language like that because it's rarely productive. I try to talk about bigger issues.



A lot of people say that it's more productive to say "That thing you said was racist" than "You are a racist".  I can see the logic, and it's much easier to defend, since it's much easier to make a definitive statement about a single instance of speech than about a whole person.  But in practice, very few people will appreciate the difference, especially in the heat of the moment.


----------



## Squealer (Jun 25, 2015)

Honestly, anyone who thinks we have no right to  fly OUR flag is racist, and nees to get over themselves


----------



## Bronchitis that Lingers (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I don't care about why they're doing it, I care that _they're doing it_.
> 
> This happens every Goddamn time there's a sensationalized crime. It happened after Columbine when people blamed and censured Marilyn Manson and Doom for the crime of being the ornamentation of the two hateful, retarded, virgin chucklekfucks who caused that atrocity. It happened after Benghazi when people blamed a modern day _Manos: the Hands of Fate _for causing a terrorist attack. Now its 2015 and happening with the Confederate Flag.
> 
> We've learned not a Goddamn thing. Hell, if anything, we're going backwards.


Dude, I'm on your side with this, but you have to understand that Apple is a huge corporation that is susceptible to lawsuits because they have the money to dish out if someone actually takes them to court over something. This is like that little message you get from iTunes when you download unsavory apps (such as for jailbreaking), that say "we can not stop you from downloading this, but stress the immoral implications that come with downloading it". No one at Apple really gives a shit that you're trying to get free skips on Pandora, but Pandora cares because they're losing money, and they can start something with Apple over that, just like how someone can claim that they're racist for having Civil War games on their store.
They're just covering their asses.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> My point is that nobody is advocating making display of the Confederate flag illegal.  Apple's decision to stop selling certain products doesn't change that.


It does change that.

Freedom of expression and inquiry and the First Amendment aren't the same thing. The First Amendment is a good start towards achieving a society devoted to free inquiry, but the people involved in working towards that have to actually see a free society as a valuable thing in and of itself rather than constantly try to find legal workarounds to circumvent the spirit of the law.

Besides, there's still plenty of reprehensible racist garbage that people can still easily buy through these big companies any time they want. Why should Pat Buchanan's books get a free pass when the Confederate Flag doesn't? It's hypocrisy and censorship, plain and simple.


----------



## ShavedSheep (Jun 25, 2015)

I just think it looks cool.


----------



## Bork Laser (Jun 25, 2015)

sugoi-chan said:


> This was when I lived in New Jersey



This is still a thing in Jersey. In South Jersey you have a mix of rural and suburban areas. Unlike the south, where you can make the argument its for heritage and/or racism, here its more like edgey4u teens and young adults who see it as a sign of rebellion against the government. It's also not unsual to see black people with bumper stickers or the actual flag riding around with it up here.

But again this is more so for the reason of them trying to make a "statement" against the government. These are the same people who post info wars links on facebook as actual news sources.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Bronchitis that Lingers said:


> Dude, I'm on your side with this, but you have to understand that Apple is a huge corporation that is susceptible to lawsuits because they have the money to dish out if someone actually takes them to court over something. This is like that little message you get from iTunes when you download unsavory apps (such as for jailbreaking), that say "we can not stop you from downloading this, but stress the immoral implications that come with downloading it". No one at Apple really gives a shit that you're trying to get free skips on Pandora, but Pandora cares because they're losing money, and they can start something with Apple over that.
> They're just covering their asses.


Again, I understand why this happened, seeing as how it happens every single time after a Charleston Affair since the day I was born. But just because I know why something happens doesn't mean it should happen anyway.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> It does change that.



People want to buy Pat Buchanan's books.  They don't, at least at this point in time, want to buy stuff depicting the Confederate flag.  Or at least, that's Apple's calculation.  Their calculation may well be wrong, but the only people they're hurting are themselves.

There are lots of things I'd like to be able to buy that Apple won't sell me.  I'd love to be able to buy a video game about a timetraveling bisexual anthromorphic cat who's best friends with Napoleon.  I don't think Apple's refusal to sell it to me is at all injurious to free inquiry, though.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

koyemshii said:


> Honestly, anyone who thinks we have no right to  fly OUR flag is racist, and nees to get over themselves



Yeah, because me moving away from the south due to rampant racism and my dislike of a symbol of racial hatred makes me a racist.  I see your logic.



Dudeofteenage said:


> Except that nobody is telling them that... oh, why do I even fucking bother.



You're chasing your tail, man!


----------



## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

IronJustice said:


> I think we established already that symbols, including this flag, mean different things to different people. Not everyone in the Confederacy in the 1800s felt the same way about slavery, some were against it. Some states seceded for different reasons, or multiple reasons.


"Not everyone" is not the same thing as "a significant portion". The Civil war was about slavery, plain and simple. There's more to it, because obviously anything involving millions of people won't have a simple explanation. But still, you're nitpicking.


IronJustice said:


> Just because a lot of people view an image as offensive or racist shouldn't be cause for one to censor themselves.


That's actually a really good reason to censor yourself, actually. Assuming you don't want people to think you're racist, you'll generally refrain from saying racist things.


*Asterisk* said:


> Besides, there's still plenty of reprehensible racist garbage that people can still easily buy through these big companies any time they want. *Why should Pat Buchanan's books get a free pass when the Confederate Flag doesn't?* It's hypocrisy and censorship, plain and simple.


Books are harder to evaluate than symbols.


----------



## Le Bateleur (Jun 25, 2015)

The confederate flag is pretty useful here in the UK. It's an almost 100% accurate way to identify -and thus avoid - people who enjoy line dancing and country music.


----------



## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> Yeah, because me moving away from the south due to rampant racism and my dislike of a symbol of racial hatred makes me a racist.  I see your logic.



What racism did you experience that made you move? I'm not trying to argue, I'm genuinely just trying to see this from your point of view.


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## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

dabluearmedbandit said:


> What racism did you experience that made you move? I'm not trying to argue, I'm genuinely just trying to see this from your point of view.



Read my previous posts for an excellent example.  Thank you for not insulting me in public like you did in our private conversation.


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## Space_Dandy (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> "Not everyone" is not the same thing as "a significant portion". The Civil war was about slavery, plain and simple. There's more to it, because obviously anything involving millions of people won't have a simple explanation. But still, you're nitpicking.
> 
> That's actually a really good reason to censor yourself, actually. Assuming you don't want people to think you're racist, you'll generally refrain from saying racist things.



I'll give you the first one. You make a good point. Personally I interpreted it as being more about state's rights, but I'm no expert and could be wrong. The Confederate leadership did say a lot of racist things too (To be fair, Abe Lincoln did too). 

I am not racist, and generally refrain from saying racist things. Also I don't have any desire to fly a Confederate flag, or any flag for that matter. Its not because I am afraid of what people will say though. However, I admire people for having the courage to do something non-PC and expose themselves to the harsh judgment that our society is prone to. I know some people who fly it out of southern pride and criticism of the government, and are exposing themselves to accusations of racism.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> People want to buy Pat Buchanan's books.  They don't, at least at this point in time, want to buy stuff depicting the Confederate flag.  Or at least, that's Apple's calculation.  Their calculation may well be wrong, but the only people they're hurting are themselves.


Then they should let the people decide for themselves rather than pulling off products like these en masse. And its ridiculous to say that the decisions a major corporation makes on what to sell and not to sell only makes a difference for them. What planet are you living on?



Dudeofteenage said:


> There are lots of things I'd like to be able to buy that Apple won't sell me.  I'd love to be able to buy a video game about a timetraveling bisexual anthromorphic cat who's best friends with Napoleon.  I don't think Apple's refusal to sell it to me is at all injurious to free inquiry, though.


This is an absurd argument. We're talking about things that are real and exist and that people, for whatever reason, want to buy. There's a lot of socially poisonous garbage being sold through these companies at the moment that's not getting pulled. Nor should it be pulled.

_"Its not just the right of the person who speaks to be heard, it is the right of everyone in the audience to listen and to hear, and every time you silence somebody you make yourself a prisoner of your own action because you deny yourself the right to hear something."_
- Christopher Hitchens



Marvin said:


> Books are harder to evaluate than symbols.


What did my link send you to? _Finnegans Wake_? How is this even remotely true?

Its not like I support anything by Michelle Malkin. I think she's utterly evil for writing _In Defense of Internment_, but that doesn't mean it should be pulled from store shelves. Hell, if tomorrow's Dylan Roof kills a bunch of Asians and there's a copy of _In Defense of Internment _found in his house, it's doubly important that the book not be pulled.


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## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> What did my link send you to? _Finnegans Wake_? How is this even remotely true?


All books are harder to evaluate than flags with significant cultural meaning.


*Asterisk* said:


> Its not like I support anything by Michelle Malkin. I think she's utterly evil for writing _In Defense of Internment_, but that doesn't mean it should be pulled from store shelves. Hell, if tomorrow's Dylan Roof kills a bunch of Asians and there's a copy of _In Defense of Internment _found in his house, it's doubly important that the book not be pulled.


Meh. Unpopularity takes a lot of forms. If something goes out of print because of unpopularity, I don't really mind. You have access to the internet. If you really want to preserve something badly enough, you have the tools to do it. You're not _entitled_ to the economies of scale that the big retailers have. That's just a convenience for suitably popular things.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> Meh. Unpopularity takes a lot of forms. If something goes out of print because of unpopularity, I don't really mind. You have access to the internet. If you really want to preserve something badly enough, you have the tools to do it. You're not _entitled_ to the economies of scale that the big retailers have. That's just a convenience for suitably popular things.


But that's not what's happening here. Confederate Flag sales are soaring, largely because people are afraid of a legal or de facto ban, but they're soaring none the less.

Besides, we all know good and well _why_ big companies like Amazon and Apple are pulling the Confederate Flag. Let's not beat around the bush.


----------



## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> But that's not what's happening here. Confederate Flag sales are soaring, largely because people are afraid of a legal or de facto ban, but they're soaring none the less.
> 
> Besides, we all know good and well _why_ big companies like Amazon and Apple are pulling the Confederate Flag. Let's not beat around the bush.


I'm not concerned with why. I just don't see it as something to get outraged about.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

If you feel private companies have an obligation - not necessarily a concrete, enforcable legal obligation, but nonetheless, an obligation - to provide products in order to encourage free exchange of ideas, where does this obligation stop?  I presume you'd argue it includes other controversial flags like the Swastika or Hammer and Sickle, but I know you don't think we just need easy access to flags to facilitate free exchange of ideas.  What other products do we need a steady supply of to ensure that the exchange of ideas isn't fatally attenuated?


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## Space_Dandy (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> If you feel private companies have an obligation - not necessarily a concrete, enforcable legal obligation, but nonetheless, an obligation - to provide products in order to encourage free exchange of ideas, where does this obligation stop?  I presume you'd argue it includes other controversial flags like the Swastika or Hammer and Sickle, but I know you don't think we just need easy access to flags to facilitate free exchange of ideas.  What other products do we need a steady supply of to ensure that the exchange of ideas isn't fatally attenuated?


You are right. Corporations make decisions based on profit margin above all else, as they should be expected to do. Any time they do something purely for artistic or cultural merit is a bonus, not the expected norm.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> If you feel private companies have an obligation - not necessarily a concrete, enforcable legal obligation, but nonetheless, an obligation - to provide products in order to encourage free exchange of ideas, where does this obligation stop?  I presume you'd argue it includes other controversial flags like the Swastika or Hammer and Sickle, but I know you don't think we just need easy access to flags to facilitate free exchange of ideas.  What other products do we need a steady supply of to ensure that the exchange of ideas isn't fatally attenuated?


Anything people demand. And yes, I do include other controversial symbols in that group. Symbols are every bit the part of speech words are.

Besides, Amazon already has plenty of Hammer and Sickle products available on the store anyone can buy right now. I find dictatorial communism utterly reprehensible, but people should still be able to sell and buy those products. You can also buy a copy of Mein Kampf if you like.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Anything people demand. And yes, I do include other controversial symbols in that group. Symbols are every bit the part of speech words are.



But not including the bisexual history cat game that I'm demanding, right?

And yes, I'm aware you can buy Nazi and Soviet stuff on Amazon.  I wasn't trying to do some kind of gotcha, I was just pointing out that I understand that your point isn't narrowly about the Confederate flag, but more generally about symbols that some people find offensive.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> I'm not concerned with why. I just don't see it as something to get outraged about.


Because this road always leads to hell. We've done it again and again in society, and now is not the time to continue.

Martyrs to free speech are often unsympathetic. Remember 2 Live Crew? Those guys fucking sucked. It was still reprehensible of the Jack Thompsons of the world to try to send those men to prison for the crime of releasing a record while black.

There are indeed unprotected categories that don't fall under free speech, but that's not what we're talking about here. This is very clearly within the lines of freedom of speech and expression, and these companies are trying to stamp it out. It's not about weather or not they have the right to stamp it out: they're still wrong for doing so.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> This is very clearly within the lines of freedom of speech and expression, and these companies are trying to stamp it out. It's not about weather or not they have the right to stamp it out: they're still wrong for doing so.



I assure you Amazon does not give a crap about freedom of speech, either in a positive or negative sense.  They are not trying to exterminate freedom of speech, they are trying to preserve their bottom line.  Any damage they might do to the principle of freedom of speech is incidental.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Anything people demand. And yes, I do include other controversial symbols in that group. Symbols are every bit the part of speech words are.
> 
> Besides, Amazon already has plenty of Hammer and Sickle products available on the store anyone can buy right now. I find dictatorial communism utterly reprehensible, but people should still be able to sell and buy those products. You can also buy a copy of Mein Kampf if you like.



As Marvin mentioned, the economies of scale can prevent things from people made or sold that people demand, even if it existed previously.  Nobody is going to make something that there is no profit in.  You can price anything to make a profit, but eventually if your manufacturing runs are so small that the price of the item is more than anyone would pay for it, you will not find the item.  As you said, confederate flag sales are currently high, but nobody has ever mentioned the notion of banning it outright.  This is an irrational fear.  Amazon may stop selling it, but there will always be someone who will, and cheaply, since it would be unconstitutional to ban it.  This is 'Merica.  We don't ban anything here but Muslims.

The problem with banning something is that the evil it may or may not represent is hidden.  Mein Kampf is an excellent example.  But if sales for the book drop to levels that no longer merit keeping it in print, is that an issue?  I'd like to think it would not be, as there are already so many copies in circulation and libraries exist specifically to preserve writings like this.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> But not including the bisexual history cat game that I'm demanding, right?
> 
> And yes, I'm aware you can buy Nazi and Soviet stuff on Amazon.  I wasn't trying to do some kind of gotcha, I was just pointing out that I understand that your point isn't narrowly about the Confederate flag, but more generally about symbols that some people find offensive.


If you make that game and put it on the iTunes store, I'll buy it with a pair of Azealia Banks' panties if you want. Tim Cook absolutely should sell your stupid fucking game. Until then, shut the fuck up about it. It's a retarded non-example, and a waste of everybody's Goddamn time.

And if you understand my point, why are you still defending Amazon and Apple for pulling these products? How are you justifying this? Do you just not value the principle of the First Amendment at all? Is a momentary assuaging of your white guilt really worth the long term damage to freedom of expression in your eyes? If so, who do you think would be a good judge to determine where the line lies? How do you plan to deal with this in the long term? Are you positive this system won't be abused? If no, how do you justify the toll anyway?


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> As Marvin mentioned, the economies of scale can prevent things from people made or sold that people demand, even if it existed previously.  Nobody is going to make something that there is no profit in.  You can price anything to make a profit, but eventually if your manufacturing runs are so small that the price of the item is more than anyone would pay for it, you will not find the item.



I was thinking this too.  Unless I've misunderstood his point, the only way for retailers like Amazon to meet their obligations as @*Asterisk* is describing them would be to become a non-profit organisation.



*Asterisk* said:


> If you make that game and put it on the iTunes store, I'll buy it with a pair of Azealia Banks' panties if you want. Tim Cook absolutely should sell your stupid fucking game. Until then, shut the fuck up about it. It's a retarded non-example, and a waste of everybody's Goddamn time.



Whoah there, Captain.  Would you like some crackers with that salt?



*Asterisk* said:


> And if you understand my point, why are you still defending Amazon and Apple for pulling these products? How are you justifying this? Do you just not value the principle of the First Amendment at all? Is a momentary assuaging of your white guilt really worth the long term damage to freedom of expression in your eyes? If so, who do you think would be a good judge to determine where the line lies? How do you plan to deal with this in the long term? Are you positive this system won't be abused? If no, how do you justify the toll anyway?



OK, let's back up a bit.  I agree that my theoretical video game is a somewhat frivolous example, but I used it to illustrate that, if we feel that Amazon must provide literally anything that there is some demand for, their obligations are massive.  There are many products that one or two people would want that Amazon doesn't provide.  If you feel every product that Amazon isn't offering for sale is a loss to the marketplace of ideas, you should care about things just as ridiculous and frivolous as my made up videogame.  I don't like to show my power level, but I am going to use an actual example, not a made up one.

I would like to be able to buy an English translation of Francois Bluche's biography of Louis XV on Amazon, but I can't.  They don't sell it.  I presume that's because the Anglophone market for Bluche's books is quite small.  I think reading this would really genuinely improve my understanding of history, society, culture and politics.  Is this a problem, in your view?


----------



## Save Goober (Jun 25, 2015)

I fucking hate that this has become an argument over a flag and not a discussion about how a crazy person instigated domestic terrorism. The flag sucks and should go but this really isn't the issue. It's just like Sandy Hook becoming a pointless argument about gun control and not mental health like it should have been.


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## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

meltychocolate said:


> I fucking hate that this has become an argument over a flag and not a discussion about how a crazy person instigated domestic terrorism. The flag sucks and should go but this really isn't the issue. It's just like Sandy Hook becoming a pointless argument about gun control and not mental health like it should have been.



Well, what is there to say about the guy?  We could all sit around competing to see who can use the most over-the-top terms to denounce him, but it would just be a moral circlejerk.  He's clearly fucked up and deserves harsh sanctions.  It's not a very interesting conversation when everybody agrees.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 25, 2015)

What I'm saying, @Dudeofteenage and @Captain Cid, is that you're using the market demand defense as a misdirection. You both know good and well this particular situation isn't about the current market demand for the Confederate Flag. It's about big companies like Apple and Amazon deciding customers speech for them. And it's not about weather or not they have the _legal_ right to do so. They do have the right to decide what they will and won't sell, but it's still _morally_ wrong. Something being legally right has never given it a pass for being morally wrong.

Apple, Amazon, Ebay, Etsy, Google, and every other company currently performing these actions are hurting the principles of freedom of expression. Those principles are greater than any law. They make the world a better place to be in when we work towards achieving them.

So here's my last questions before I have to go: Do you support freedom of expression? And if so, how is a corporate mandate that these _particular_ products be pulled not a violation of that principle?


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> If you make that game and put it on the iTunes store, I'll buy it with a pair of Azealia Banks' panties if you want. Tim Cook absolutely should sell your stupid fucking game. Until then, shut the fuck up about it. It's a retarded non-example, and a waste of everybody's Goddamn time.
> 
> And if you understand my point, why are you still defending Amazon and Apple for pulling these products? How are you justifying this? Do you just not value the principle of the First Amendment at all? Is a momentary assuaging of your white guilt really worth the long term damage to freedom of expression in your eyes? If so, who do you think would be a good judge to determine where the line lies? How do you plan to deal with this in the long term? Are you positive this system won't be abused? If no, how do you justify the toll anyway?



Please don't be rude and calling names.  I understand how Dudeofteenage (sorry, don't know how to tag) can be frustrating, but he's been very civil and polite with you.  It doesn't help you "win".  He doesn't "value" the First Amendment because he isn't an American citizen, therefore he is under no obligation to do so.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Do you support freedom of expression



No!

Oh shit, you caught me.  Damnit.  *Goes back to Soviet Canada*


----------



## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Apple, Amazon, Ebay, Etsy, Google, and every other company currently performing these actions are hurting the principles of freedom of expression.


Only if you assume these companies aren't entitled to their own freedom of expression.


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> What I'm saying, @Dudeofteenage and @Captain Cid, is that you're using the market demand defense as a misdirection. You both know good and well this particular situation isn't about the current market demand for the Confederate Flag. It's about big companies like Apple and Amazon deciding customers speech for them. And it's not about weather or not they have the _legal_ right to do so. They do have the right to decide what they will and won't sell, but it's still _morally_ wrong. Something being legally right has never given it a pass for being morally wrong.
> 
> Apple, Amazon, Ebay, Etsy, Google, and every other company currently performing these actions are hurting the principles of freedom of expression. Those principles are greater than any law. They make the world a better place to be in when we work towards achieving them.
> 
> So here's my last questions before I have to go: Do you support freedom of expression? And if so, how is a corporate mandate that these _particular_ products be pulled not a violation of that principle?



Companies do not exist to uphold society's moral standards.  They exist to make money.  The decision to not sell the flag is most likely a financial one as they fear it could hurt their bottom line in the long run.  It is their right to do so much as it is their right to sell it if they wish.  There is nothing more important in an open society than freedom of expression, but you do not need a corporation to enable this for you.  If it is important enough to you, you'll make a flag yourself.  It's pretty easy to do.  A corporation deciding to not sell a product is not a violation of freedom of expression because as long as it is legal and profitable to sell a product, some company somewhere will do just that.


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## ShavedSheep (Jun 25, 2015)

Some companies choose not to sell confederate flags.
Some companies choose to sell silicone dragon dicks.
It's really just up to them, morals or no.


----------



## KatsuKitty (Jun 25, 2015)

ShavedSheep said:


> Some companies choose not to sell confederate flags.
> Some companies choose to sell silicone dragon dicks.
> It's really just up to them, morals or no.



how does this forum always bring it back to penis


----------



## Null (Jun 25, 2015)

Lately you're yelling about our Rebel Flag,
and wanting us to take it down.

It represents our history and Southern Pride,
and rebel blood on the ground.

So go to hell nigger, I'm telling you loud and clear:
It ain't coming down! The rebel flag is staying right here!

Hey, quit your bitching niggers, and let things be.


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## Le Bateleur (Jun 25, 2015)

Captain Cid said:


> very civil


I see what you did there :^)


----------



## TheAmazingAxolotl (Jun 25, 2015)

We are a band of brothers and native to the soil,
Fighting for the property we gained by honest toil;
And when our rights were threatened, the cry rose near and far,
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Southern rights, hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star.


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## ShavedSheep (Jun 25, 2015)

Great Thread


----------



## Randall Fragg (Jun 25, 2015)

Well well well, lookie here. We got us some yankee ass cityboys tryna erase our heritage!


----------



## Organic Fapcup (Jun 25, 2015)

Look, this is just my opinion, but we should just kill or enslave anyone whose melanin concentration exceeds a certain number and/or have slanted eyes. That way we could either get rid of the niggers, spics, chinks and gooks or make them useful to ol' Dixie.

Also we should nuke the Northern states for being traitors or something.


----------



## Cuck Norris (Jun 25, 2015)

Some of y'all just don't understand Southern heritage.


----------



## Teddy (Jun 25, 2015)

All this controversy over the rebel flag sure makes me wonder if "The South will Rise Again" as so many YouTube comments say.






It's 2015 South. When will you rise again? We do not know the day or the hour I suppose.


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## AnOminous (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> So here's my last questions before I have to go: Do you support freedom of expression? And if so, how is a corporate mandate that these _particular_ products be pulled not a violation of that principle?



Because it's not coercing anyone else to do anything.  If anything, it would be a violation of freedom of expression to force people to sell things they don't want to sell, when they are themselves expressing something by refusing to sell them.  

It does not violate my rights that I can't go to amazon.com and buy a confederate flag, when I can just as easily go to any of the many, many other places that sell them.  My only problem is that I might have to wait a while, because most of these places have red lettering on the item saying it's temporarily out of stock due to high demand.


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## TheAmazingAxolotl (Jun 25, 2015)

Teddy said:


> All this controversy over the rebel sure makes me wonder if "The South will Rise Again" as so many YouTube comments say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One day, the North will fail. Their economy will slip into darkness, their people will return to the bowels of immorality, and God will forsake them for their debauchery. They will then turn to the South. They will beg for our help, attempt to beg our forgiveness for holding the Civil War against us for 150 years, and beg for our morals. We'll simply stare at them, rocking in our rocking chairs and sipping our regionally-varying-levels-of-sweet tea, and we'll hear their pleas, smiling as we tell them the one thing we've been saying for years:

"Bless your heart."


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## chimpburgers (Jun 25, 2015)

Stars and confederate stripes forever, ya bunch of fuckin' Yankees.


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## Quijibo69 (Jun 25, 2015)

I changed my avatar because everyone else was doing it...


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## Marvin (Jun 25, 2015)

Marvin said:


> Only if you assume these companies aren't entitled to their own freedom of expression.


To elaborate on what I said here, this kind of gets into an argument about corporate personhood.

It's definitely a tricky topic, but to some extent, I think corporate personhood, at least as it applies to first amendment rights, does have some value.

For example, consider all the corporations that are selling GMO-free foods and bullshit like that. Science (and the FDA) has ruled that GMO foods are indistinguishable, health-wise, from normal foods. But there's still a lot of issues behind them. Like ethics, for example, considering Monsanto has a shitty reputation.

Because of corporate (first amendment) personhood, corporations are permitted to discriminate against GMO foods. This runs down the ladder all the way down to the consumer, who is permitted to vote with their dollars on whether or not to support GMO foods. It would be inappropriate for the government to step in and make GMO foods illegal without scientific justification. And it'd be equally inappropriate for the government to step in and make GMO foods mandatory, considering the ethical issues.

Ironically enough, corporate personhood gives consumers a voice where otherwise they'd be up shit creek.

Heh, also, to clarify, I think almost all arguments against GMO foods are done by crazy dipshits and there's almost no science to back it up. It's today's version of anti-vaxxers. (But anti-vaxxers are still around, so it's even worse.) The best arguments against GMO foods are ethical arguments (which, admittedly, Monsanto is pretty shitty) and perhaps arguments based on species diversity.

(GMO foods are just an example. You could say the same thing about crazy christian groups or free range eggs or whatever people are obsessing about now.)

Addendum: Also, corporate personhood is shitty when the corporations start lobbying for their own existence. Things like that should be regulated like crazy.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 25, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Its not like I support anything by Michelle Malkin. I think she's utterly evil for writing _In Defense of Internment_, but that doesn't mean it should be pulled from store shelves. Hell, if tomorrow's Dylan Roof kills a bunch of Asians and there's a copy of _In Defense of Internment _found in his house, it's doubly important that the book not be pulled.



Frankly, your argument is bizarre.   Decisions over content by businesses are made every day.  You seem to be suggesting that book stores have the same obligation to provide content as public libraries do.

If Amazon decided tomorrow that they didn't want to sell Malkin's book, that would be fine.  And if someone wanted to react by starting a boycott of Amazon to hurt them financially, that would be fine too.  They are a businesses, not a public trust.  If you were talking about the postal service refusing to ship her books, or libraries banning her books, you would have a point, but private enterprises should be able to disassociate themselves from products and ideas by not selling them just like you do by not buying them.



*Asterisk* said:


> And if you understand my point, why are you still defending Amazon and Apple for pulling these products? How are you justifying this? Do you just not value the principle of the First Amendment at all? Is a momentary assuaging of your white guilt really worth the long term damage to freedom of expression in your eyes? If so, who do you think would be a good judge to determine where the line lies? How do you plan to deal with this in the long term? Are you positive this system won't be abused? If no, how do you justify the toll anyway?



You also seem to be confused about the "principle of the First Amendment."  That relates to the _government_ restricting ideas.  It's very particular to that because requiring other people to identify with ideas that they disagree with (which you suggest ought to happen) is also an infringement upon liberty.



Teddy said:


> as so many YouTube comments say.


I really wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Truck Rockfort (Jun 25, 2015)

"_Nothing fills me with deeper sadness than to see a Southern man apologizing for the defense we made of our inheritance. Our cause was so just, so sacred, that had I known all that has come to pass, had I known what was to be inflicted upon me, all that my country was to suffer, all that our posterity was to endure, I would do it all over again_."

- Jefferson Finis Davis, President of the Confederate States of America


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

Holdek said:


> You also seem to be confused about the "principle of the First Amendment."  That relates to the _government_ restricting ideas.  It's very particular to that because requiring other people to identify with ideas that they disagree with (which you suggest ought to happen) is also an infringement upon liberty.
> 
> I really wouldn't worry about it.


You already missed the point completely with the first sentence of your third paragraph. Free speech and the First Amendment are not, and have never been, the same thing.

Again, my objection to this isn't because what they're doing is a violation of the letter of the First Amendment. That never has, and never will be my argument.

What I'm saying is that freedom of expression _is a moral principle worth sticking towards regardless of weather or not you have the ability to get away with violating it_. There are countless instances where people and corporations practice some form of censorship, which are entirely in the clear legally, but are still ethically reprehensible. George Lucas, for instance, with his locking away of the Original Star Wars films' masters. There's nothing illegal about it whatsoever, but it's still morally wrong for him to do so. And morality is infinitely more valuable than any law.

I also know that Star Wars movies and Confederate Flags are far from the most important or heroic examples. But the examples not being the most important things to society doesn't put this thing any more morally in the clear. Two of the biggest fights over free speech in recent history were over _The Interview_, and 2 Live Crew. Both are things the world would be better off without, but both demand the same protections as anything else.



Faceist Analchest said:


> Basically, no retailer is ever obligated to sell your shit, because that's not what freedom of expression entails. It's kind of like how banning Woody Chan from the Kiwi Farms is not censorship and does not deprive him of his right to free speech, because it's not Null's obligation to provide a platform for unfettered autistic shitposting. Woody Chan is still completely free to take his autism elsewhere and shit up the rest of the internet.


Have you deliberately ignored everything that goes on in this site?

I don't agree with all of his opinions, but @Null has consistently championed freedom of expression every time the topic comes up. Yes, posters have been banned for things like spergery or posting in the Mr. Enter thread. But not once has a poster been banned for their views or their ideas. @NostalgiaJazzAdmirer hasn't been banned. @umad hasn't been banned. @Holden hasn't been banned. If Marijan were drowning, I'm certain Null would toss him a cannonball, and yet he still won't ban him.

That's how you value freedom of expression.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Again, my objection to this isn't because what they're doing is a violation of the letter of the First Amendment. That never has, and never will be my argument.



And what I'm telling you is that Apple, a business that exists to maximize profits for its shareholders, is not violating the _spirit _of the First Amendment, or the general principle of freedom of speech, either.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

Holdek said:


> And what I'm telling you is that Apple, a business that exists to maximize profits for its shareholders, is not violating the _spirit _of the First Amendment, or the general principle of freedom of speech, either.


Apple is taking a product people want, and is choosing not only to not sell the product themselves, but censure entrepreneurs who not only sell the product, but sell products which contain even references to said product.

In what planet is this not a violation of the principles of free expression? What if tomorrow they pull every song on iTunes with the word "nigger" in it? I hate coony ass shit like Lil' Wayne as much as the next person who didn't eat lead paint chips as a child, but banning his music just because I find it offensive would be wrong.

Apple is morally wrong for doing this, as is every other company going along with this absurd censure of Confederate Iconography.


----------



## Joan Nyan (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> You already missed the point completely with the first sentence of your third paragraph. Free speech and the First Amendment are not, and have never been, the same thing.
> 
> Again, my objection to this isn't because what they're doing is a violation of the letter of the First Amendment. That never has, and never will be my argument.
> 
> What I'm saying is that freedom of expression _is a moral principle worth sticking towards regardless of weather or not you have the ability to get away with violating it_. There are countless instances where people and corporations practice some form of censorship, which are entirely in the clear legally, but are still ethically reprehensible. George Lucas, for instance, with his locking away of the Original Star Wars films' masters. There's nothing illegal about it whatsoever, but it's still morally wrong for him to do so. And morality is infinitely more valuable than any law.





*Asterisk* said:


> In what planet is this not a violation of the principles of free expression? What if tomorrow they pull every song on iTunes with the word "nigger" in it? I hate coony ass shit like Lil' Wayne as much as the next person who didn't eat lead paint chips as a child, but banning his music just because I find it offensive would be wrong.


But doesn't Apple et al. have the freedom to express their dislike of the Confederate Flag or the nigger word by not selling it? Also lol star wars is for autists.


----------



## Null (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Have you deliberately ignored everything that goes on in this site?
> 
> I don't agree with all of his opinions, but @Null has consistently championed freedom of expression every time the topic comes up. Yes, posters have been banned for things like spergery or posting in the Mr. Enter thread. But not once has a poster been banned for their views or their ideas. @NostalgiaJazzAdmirer hasn't been banned. @umad hasn't been banned. @Holden hasn't been banned. If Marijan were drowning, I'm certain Null would toss him a cannonball, and yet he still won't ban him.
> 
> That's how you value freedom of expression.


No, I'm actually going to disagree with you here.

There's a process to making a flag. You must farm a material, ship it, process it, shape it, weave it. You must collect the dyes, ship it, process it, color it. These steps are done by different people by different trade. The flag, a product, arrives in a warehouse as a complete product and is sold to retailers who then upsale it for a profit. These facilities are also manned by people in trades.

_Nobody_ is obligated to sell you the flag _you_ want. That's how commercialism works.

Freedom of expression is different, and if you want to take the blanket off your bed and dye it to look like the Confederate Flag, at that point you can wave it anywhere you want. I don't give a shit if it's the state capitol. Same could be said for the Nazi flag or the ISIS flag or whatever.

But that's different from retailers.

You can't impose a moral judgement on a retailer. Maybe if the flags were being sold from a website called Flags'R'Us who made it their company mission to provide literally every flag possible, historic fantasy or otherwise, then you could _make the case_ that it's their "moral duty", but if they wanted to ban only the Confederate flag and include a Nazi flag free with every purchase, that's their right.


----------



## Ruin (Jun 26, 2015)

Gotta agree with Null here. Moral panics are misguided and the sjws who think banning a flag with lead to perfect racial harmony are retarded, but no one can compel a private entity to sell something they don't want to.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Apple is morally wrong for doing this, as is every other company going along with this absurd censure of Confederate Iconography.


I really hope you are trolling.


----------



## Space_Dandy (Jun 26, 2015)

Apple sucks either way.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

Jon-Nyan said:


> But doesn't Apple et al. have the freedom to express their dislike of the Confederate Flag by not selling it? Also lol star wars is for autists.


We're talking about some of the largest retailers on planet Earth. For many people, these are the only ways they buy anything. Of course people can still get a hold of these products, but it's immoral of these companies to pull these Confederate Iconography products because of their moral policing.

And it's not like there's any consistency here. You can buy the complete works of David Duke on Amazon right this second if you want. Including the one he wrote with a burning American Flag trapped in the Star of David on the cover. You can buy the North Korean flag on Etsy. You can buy a T-shirt emblazoned with the Prophet Muhammad carrying a bomb in his turban on Google.

I'm happy for all these things, but they will go away the more we let shit like this happen.



Null said:


> You can't impose a moral judgement on a retailer. Maybe if the flags were being sold from a website called Flags'R'Us who made it their company mission to provide literally every flag possible, historic fantasy or otherwise, then you could _make the case_ that it's their "moral duty", but if they wanted to ban only the Confederate flag and include a Nazi flag free with every purchase, that's their right.


I'm not saying they don't have a legal right to do this. I just hate that they're doing this because it's both morally wrong, and it'll set a bad precedent.

Companies have always had the right to be spineless, cowardly, and nanny people about. But something being legal is never the measure of weather or not it's right.


----------



## DuskEngine (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> @NostalgiaJazzAdmirer hasn't been banned.



Truly a more grievous crime than the War of Northern Aggression.


----------



## Null (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I'm not saying they don't have a legal right to do this. I just hate that they're doing this because it's both morally wrong, and it'll set a bad precedent.
> 
> Companies have always had the right to be spineless, cowardly, and nanny people about. But something being legal is never the measure of weather or not it's right.


Companies do what they think they will make the look good and sell more shit.

"Oh, there's hubub about the confederate flag. we'll stop selling it" - some guy in a company who likes making money


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

Null said:


> Companies do what they think they will make the look good and sell more shit.
> 
> "Oh, there's hubub about the confederate flag. we'll stop selling it" - some guy in a company who likes making money


I know this all too well, seeing as how something similar has happened nearly every single time there's a tragic news story.

I'm not gonna stop hating them for it. This same thing'll likely happen many more times in the foreseeable future, and I'll oppose it every time. The David Dukes of the world shouldn't be driven into the dark, they should be brought into the sun so they can shrivel like a snail.


----------



## HG 400 (Jun 26, 2015)

DawnMachine said:


> Truly a more grievous crime than the War of Northern Aggression.



There is no crime more heinous than the unwarranted aggression of The Damn Yankee.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> There is no crime more heinous than the unwarranted aggression of The Damn Yankee.


NJA's posts were delivered to General Sherman via a telegraph time machine. When he heard them recited, he impaled a war orphan onto a plantation fence.


----------



## DuskEngine (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Do you just not value the principle of the First Amendment at all?



In all seriousness, do _you_ not value the principle of the free market? There will still be people who want to buy the Confederate flag (in fact, I would not at all be surprised if sales spiked after this little moral panic). There will still be places on the internet to buy them. All it will take for anyone to find one is a little extra searching.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> words and shit


How on Earth is it morally wrong to choose to stop supplying a product? You may not agree with it but calling it a moral outrage simply because a corporation wants to look good and make money is pretty autistic. 

Also very classy of how not racist you are, dropping the n-word and using the term "coony ass-shit"  I swear this is Dr. Foreskin pt 2


----------



## Null (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I know this all too well, seeing as how something similar has happened nearly every single time there's a tragic news story.
> 
> I'm not gonna stop hating them for it. This same thing'll likely happen many more times in the foreseeable future, and I'll oppose it every time. The David Dukes of the world shouldn't be driven into the dark, they should be brought into the sun so they can shrivel like a snail.


whatever then dude. nobody else cares about this issue as much as you do. protest alone.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

DawnMachine said:


> In all seriousness, do _you_ not value the principle of the free market? There will still be people who want to buy the Confederate flag (in fact, I would not at all be surprised if sales spiked after this little moral panic). There will still be places on the internet to buy them. All it will take for anyone to find one is a little extra searching.


This isn't a fair or consistent policy, plain and simple. You can go onto iTunes right now and buy the track where Ice Cube threatens Korean people with a pogrom. Should Death Certificate be pulled from iTunes because of Ice Cube's hatred of Jews and Koreans? Does it reflect badly on Apple that they choose to sell blatantly racist products on their store? No, and no.



KingofManga420 said:


> How on Earth is it morally wrong to choose to stop supplying a product? You may not agree with it but calling it a moral outrage simply because a corporation wants to look good and make money is pretty autistic.
> 
> Also very classy of how not racist you are, dropping the n-word and using the term "coony ass-shit"  I swear this is Dr. Foreskin pt 2


Why should any store decide which means of personal expression are good and bad for you?

There is no reason being applied to the dropping of this iconography. As I've linked to countless times in this thread, you can easily buy books and products from Nazis, Klansmen, racists, communists, fascists, Michelle Malkin, and hundreds of other reprehensible individuals. 

Where should we draw the line on this? Who do you think should have the right to decide which means of expression are okay for you? And if you do have someone in mind, what do you propose to do to stop them from hammering down on innocent people?

I vote for nobody.



Null said:


> whatever then dude. nobody else cares about this issue as much as you do. protest alone.


It's a pretty silly example, but sometimes that's just the way things role. The same thing happened with 2 Live Crew back in the day.


----------



## HG 400 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* is right you guys did you know that the Union had a _nazi concentration camp_ called point lookout and somehow it's okay for them to make a Fallout DLC out of that just to mock my ancestors who died fighting to keep us safe from the dubious mercies of the pernicious negroe.


----------



## Coster (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> There is no reason being applied to the dropping of this iconography.



Yes, there is. It's currently a hot issue, so naturally they're going to immediately respond while everything's fresh news. They take their stance on it, the people who feel similarly buy more products from them out of respect for shared views, and then the people who dislike it buy their products anyway.


----------



## Shokew (Jun 26, 2015)

I still say FUCK. YOUR. REBEL. FLAG. However, leave those who want to have one so damn badly alone already - at least we can pick out who the real fucked up ones are for fully understanding what that shit stands for... I hope.

TBRFH, There's no way, as much as I'd love to see it before I die at the least, the Confederate Flag is going to be removed from existence or considered illegal or whatnot even after all of this, knowing the truths put in front of us about Free Market and a demand for it, for example.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Why should any store decide which means of personal expression are good and bad for you?
> 
> There is no reason being applied to the dropping of this iconography. As I've linked to countless times in this thread, you can easily buy books and products from Nazis, Klansmen, racists, communists, fascists, Michelle Malkin, and hundreds of other reprehensible individuals.


They didn't decide it's good for you. They decided that they didn't want to be associated with it so it's not on their shelves or not on the iTunes Store or whatever (why the fuck would you be going there anyway). It's not about them saying what is or isn't bad for you, it's about 'oh people are shit talking the flag let's get rid of it so we don't look like racists'. That's how business works, pleasing the MAJORITY, not the small number of racists who walk through the Walmart doors fresh out of rebel flags.

Frankly I would give more of a shit if the symbol being phased out wasn't an ignorant and racist symbol of a failed insurgency that has no right being displayed anyway anywhere but museums and re-enactments


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## HG 400 (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> They didn't decide it's good for you. They decided that they didn't want to be associated with it so it's not on their shelves or not on the iTunes Store or whatever (why the fuck would you be going there anyway). It's not about them saying what is or isn't bad for you, it's about 'oh people are shit talking the flag let's get rid of it so we don't look like racists'. That's how business works, pleasing the MAJORITY, not the small number of racists who walk through the Walmart doors fresh out of rebel flags.
> 
> Frankly I would give more of a shit if the symbol being phased out wasn't an ignorant and racist symbol of a failed insurgency that has no right being displayed anyway anywhere but museums and re-enactments



That's how it starts. Next thing you know, white people are being put in extermination camps and the darkies are taking all our women.


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## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> That's how it starts. Next thing you know, white people are being put in extermination camps and the darkies are taking all our women.


We can't have that coony ass shit can we, @*Asterisk* ?


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 26, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> That's how it starts. Next thing you know, white people are being put in extermination camps and the darkies are taking all our women.



FEMA's getting ready to do just that, doncha know.  One more false flag with crisis actors and shit, and next thing, Navy SEALs will be rounding everyone up.


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## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 26, 2015)

I have a bigger issue with how homophobic the Confederate flag is. The Confederacy had no openly gay or trans soldiers serving, meanwhile the North was made 100% of faggot liberals. This is a tragedy I cannot forgive, and I stand with Apple's decision to rewrite history and control thought.


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## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> They didn't decide it's good for you. They decided that they didn't want to be associated with it so it's not on their shelves or not on the iTunes Store or whatever (why the fuck would you be going there anyway). It's not about them saying what is or isn't bad for you, it's about 'oh people are shit talking the flag let's get rid of it so we don't look like racists'. That's how business works, pleasing the MAJORITY, not the small number of racists who walk through the Walmart doors fresh out of rebel flags.


I don't care why they're doing it. Them doing it is still wrong, cowardly, and hypocritical.

Make no mistake, something like this will happen again. I'm sure @ThonisSH is probably watching _Fight Club_ backwards right now looking for the secret message telling him to start acting just like his hero, and when those poor Slovakian girls or whatever are murdered, there might even be calls to pull Chuck Palahniuk's books from numerous locations. Joe Lieberman might even use the whole thing as an excuse to talk about banning Marilyn Manson again.

It'll be stupid as hell, but it's still worth fighting.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I don't care why they're doing it. Them doing it is still wrong, cowardly, and hypocritical.
> 
> Make no mistake, something like this will happen again. I'm sure @ThonisSH is probably watching _Fight Club_ backwards right now looking for the secret message telling him start acting just like his hero, and when those poor Slovakian girls or whatever are murdered, there might even be calls to pull Chuck Palahniuk's books from numerous locations. Joe Lieberman might even use the whole thing as an excuse to talk about banning Marilyn Manson again.
> 
> It'll be stupid as hell, but it's still worth fighting.


K but Marilyn Manson is some emo guy(?) singing about dark things, but he doesn't stand an evil confederacy from 150+ ago years that tortured, owned, beat, killed and raped black people. There's a reason Marilyn Manson didn't get banned compared to this.


----------



## DuskEngine (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> ignorant and racist symbol of a failed insurgency that has no right being displayed anyway anywhere but museums and re-enactments



You mean like the flag of the USA?


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> K but Marilyn Manson is some emo guy(?) singing about dark things, but he doesn't stand an evil confederacy from 150+ ago years that tortured, owned, beat, killed and raped black people. There's a reason Marilyn Manson didn't get banned compared to this.


Who are we to throw stones? The guy on the Nickel had his own children enslaved. Pretty much everyone on all our money was responsible for incalculable suffering to the Indians, aside from maybe FDR, who just settled for stripping hundreds of thousands of Asians of their land and possessions.

Most symbols can be tied toward something horrible, but banning them is never the answer. Every time you do such a thing or support such a thing, you make yourself a prisoner. Even if what you want banned is truly horrible with no redeeming value whatsoever, like the works of Michelle Malkin or Robert Ludlum, you're silencing yourself from acquiring information.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

DawnMachine said:


> You mean like the flag of the USA?


We won that insurgency, we just never did anything worth shit with the victory. 



*Asterisk* said:


> Who are we to throw stones? The guy on the Nickel had his own children enslaved. Pretty much everyone on all our money was responsible for incalculable suffering to the Indians, aside from maybe FDR, who just settled for stripping hundreds of thousands of Asians of their land and possessions.
> 
> Most symbols can be tied toward something horrible, but banning them is never the answer. Every time you do such a thing or support such a thing, you make yourself a prisoner. Even if what you want banned is truly horrible with no redeeming value whatsoever, like the works of Michelle Malkin or Robert Ludlum, you're silencing yourself from acquiring information.


Just cause a symbol stops getting sold on the Apple Store doesn't mean it ceases to exist and that people won't learn about it there, Mr. Orwell. Suddenly the big scary federal government wanting people not to be racist shitheads is a MORAL OUTRAGE.


----------



## ULTIMATEPRIMETIME (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Who are we to throw stones? The guy on the Nickel had his own children enslaved. Pretty much everyone on all our money was responsible for incalculable suffering to the Indians, aside from maybe FDR, who just settled for stripping hundreds of thousands of Asians of their land and possessions.
> 
> Most symbols can be tied toward something horrible, but banning them is never the answer. Every time you do such a thing or support such a thing, you make yourself a prisoner. Even if what you want banned is truly horrible with no redeeming value whatsoever, like the works of Michelle Malkin or Robert Ludlum, you're silencing yourself from acquiring information.


You're literally comparing our founding fathers to a state, which was in essence white ISIS, that used slave labor as the backbone of their economy. Our economy isn't dependent on slaves (retail workers don't count).


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> Just cause a symbol stops getting sold on the Apple Store doesn't mean it ceases to exist and that people won't learn about it there, Mr. Orwell. Suddenly the big scary federal government wanting people not to be racist shitheads is a MORAL OUTRAGE.


Just so we're clear, you want the US to ban particular flags, books, and other means of expression? Or do you just want them pulled from stores?

If either's true, how do you want to enforce these measures? Who do you know that's trustworthy enough to decide which means of expression are the correct ones under the law? And how do you know this system won't get abused, possibly even by the same people you're trying to fight against?

Because make no mistake, that happens every single time. Those in many Confederate States banned or sought to ban works like _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, and the likes of them will use any opportunity available to silence speech for their own ends. The only way to stop them is to level the playing field.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

ULTIMATEPRIMETIME said:


> You're literally comparing our founding fathers to a state (which was basically white ISIS) that used slave labor as the backbone of their economy.


Slave labor _was_ the backbone of the US economy until the Civil War.

Our Founding Fathers were still great men, and some of them were even forward thinking enough to see that slavery needed to be banned. That doesn't take away from the fact that numerous Founders used the ownership and expulsion of human beings as the capital for building this nation.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Just so we're clear, you want the US to ban particular flags, books, and other means of expression? Or do you just want them pulled from stores?
> 
> If either's true, how do you want to enforce these measures? Who do you know that's trustworthy enough to decide which means of expression are the correct ones under the law? And how do you know this system won't get abused, possibly even by the same people you're trying to fight against?
> 
> Because make no mistake, that happens every single time. Those in many Confederate States banned or sought to ban works like _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, and the likes of them will use any opportunity available to silence speech for their own ends. The only way to stop them is to level the playing field.


I personally don't give a shit. It's a racist symbol from a former enemy of the States and I don't see a point in taking it as seriously as you are. I'm mostly just having my fun with this and seeing if I can piss you off more than our good friend Dr. Foreskin.


----------



## Kirby (Jun 26, 2015)

A flag is only as offensive as the people that represent it






This is the perfect pink flag. As you can see, this is a flag that no one can be offended by. No one has a reason to dislike this flag. It is pink, it is pure and it represents nothing but happiness and hope. Therefore this flag doesn't bring up bad memories or offend anyone. No one has a legitimate reason to complain if someone is proudly displaying this flag.











These flags are flags that any autist can sperg about how they are perfect and how they represent happiness and hope in the same way the perfect pink flag does. However, unlike the perfect pink flag which has done no wrong, these flags inherently represent atrocities and wrongdoings that can't simply be ignored so that some confused idiots can feel a sense of edgy "im special and different" pride at the expense of countless people who are still alive today or have ancestors that were inhumanely impacted by the actions and ideologies that were performed under those flags.

I strongly oppose political correctness and personally, I feel that you can say you are proud to be a German and that you respect and look up to someone like Erwin Rommel for being a respectable general even though he fought for Nazi Germany the same way you can say you are proud to be a Southerner and that you respect and look up to someone like Robert E. Lee. However, that doesn't give you an excuse to wave a nazi or a confederate flag around, because to do so would be to ignore all the wrongdoings that those flags represent.


----------



## Cuck Norris (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Just so we're clear, you want the US to ban particular flags, books, and other means of expression? Or do you just want them pulled from stores?
> 
> If either's true, how do you want to enforce these measures? Who do you know that's trustworthy enough to decide which means of expression are the correct ones under the law? And how do you know this system won't get abused, possibly even by the same people you're trying to fight against?
> 
> Because make no mistake, that happens every single time. Those in many Confederate States banned or sought to ban works like _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, and the likes of them will use any opportunity available to silence speech for their own ends. The only way to stop them is to level the playing field.


What are your feelings on CP in regards to Free Speech?


----------



## ULTIMATEPRIMETIME (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Slave labor _was_ the backbone of the US economy until the Civil War.
> 
> Our Founding Fathers were still great men, and some of them were even forward thinking enough to see that slavery needed to be banned. That doesn't take away from the fact that numerous Founders used the ownership and expulsion of human beings as the capital for building this nation.


Destroying the confederacy was the defining moment in our history where we abolished slavery forever. Keeping the confederate flag around assumes everything it stands for still exists and that's just stupid.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

ULTIMATEPRIMETIME said:


> Destroying the confederacy was the defining moment in our history where we abolished slavery forever. Keeping the confederate flag around like everything it stands for still exists is just stupid.


That's how I feel. I don't fucking get how there's any way around it.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> I personally don't give a shit. It's a racist symbol from a former enemy of the States and I don't see a point in taking it as seriously as you are. I'm mostly just having my fun with this and seeing if I can piss you off more than our good friend Dr. Foreskin.


Examples in the battle of freedom of speech are often silly. Again, remember 2 Live Crew?



Kirby said:


> I strongly oppose political correctness and personally, I feel that you can say you are proud to be a German and that you respect and look up to someone like Erwin Rommel for being a respectable general even though he fought for Nazi Germany the same way you can say you are proud to be a Southerner and that you respect and look up to someone like Robert E. Lee. However, that doesn't give you an excuse to wave a nazi or a confederate flag around, because to do so would be to ignore all the wrongdoings that those flags represent.


I don't care if people wanna wave around the Swastika, or the ISIS Flag, or God Hates Fags. It's as much their right to wave it, as it is my right to dump on those horrible fascists by drawing the Prophet Muhammad having gay sex with Hitler.


----------



## José Mourinho (Jun 26, 2015)




----------



## Some JERK (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> George Lucas, for instance, with his locking away of the Original Star Wars films' masters. There's nothing illegal about it whatsoever, but it's still morally wrong for him to do so.


How's that? It's his stuff, he owns it. If he doesn't want you to see it then he doesn't have to let you see it. You're not entitled to it just because it's something you want to see. Same goes for retailers not carrying something you want to buy. Retailers make money by selling people things they want, but they certainly have no legal or _moral _obligation to do so.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

More like God hates Flags am I right?


----------



## ULTIMATEPRIMETIME (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I don't care if people wanna wave around the Swastika, or the ISIS Flag, or God Hates Fags. It's as much their right to wave it, as it is my right to dump on those horrible fascists by drawing the Prophet Muhammad having gay sex with Hitler.


Are you implying the nazis, ISIS, and Westboro deserve to exist?


----------



## TheProdigalStunna (Jun 26, 2015)

Alan Pardew said:


>


looks like someone's still jealous that he can't hang out with the big kids on Kiwi Farms anymore.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

PurpleMonkeyDishwasher said:


> What are your feelings on CP in regards to Free Speech?


Opposed and believe it should be hunted down and prosecuted, but not because it violates freedom of speech. It's both very clearly an obscenity, and physically and mentally abusive to the people filmed. I also feel the same way about the works of Max Hardcore and Rob Black, incitement, people who send legitimate threats, and a few other things.

We in the US, for the most part, have pretty sensible criterion to what is considered outside the bounds of Freedom of Speech. From a moral standpoint, I also believe it's also best for those who don't have these principles currently available to them to fight in their favor.



ULTIMATEPRIMETIME said:


> Are you implying the nazis, ISIS, and Westboro deserve to exist?


Are you implying that telling them what they can and can't say will make them go away?

ISIS and the Nazis both came up in areas of the world that had very stringent codes against freedom of expression. Not only did those codes do absolutely nothing to stop them, if anything, they thrived because of them. Meanwhile, in the US, where people are actually free to speak up, the WBC is an impotent joke.

These are not coincidences.


----------



## José Mourinho (Jun 26, 2015)

https://archive.md/zyEYp

r/KotakuInAction spergs about the situation. Choice quotes include:


_*A game set in the Civil War is going to contain elements from the Civil War, including the Confederate flag. Portraying things as they were isn't an endorsement, and this is a concept most SJWs (and idiots in general) can't understand. It's the same as schools who ban Huck Finn because it contains the word "nigger," not realizing that the whole point of including it is to reinforce the anti-racist message of the book.*_
_*This is the slippery slope that those of us completely dedicated to full, 100% freedom of speech and freedom of expression were afraid of; not government stripping away personal rights to wave whatever flag you damn well please (though that may be next), but the chilling effect against expression as dictated by corporate censorship.*_
_*All I can say right now... This is fucking disgusting. Everywhere I look, corporate fools censoring and banning anything they set their eyes on, with no regard for reason or justice. The more it happens, the more other corporate fools catch onto the fad and propagate it themselves. With each wave of totalitarian censorship, it exponentially grows. I am utterly disgusted.*_


----------



## ULTIMATEPRIMETIME (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Are you implying that telling them what they can and can't say will make them go away?
> 
> ISIS and the Nazis both came up in areas of the world that had very stringent codes against freedom of expression. Not only did those codes do absolutely nothing to stop them, if anything, they thrived because of them. Meanwhile, in the US, where people are actually free to speak up, the WBC is an impotent joke.
> 
> These are not coincidences.


You're literally comparing getting rid of a redundant flag to nazis and ISIS committing atrocities. The only place the confederate flag should be is in a museum and my hick grandma's guest room that my uncle sleeps in because she's senile and thinks the flag will convert him to a higher state of being. It all started when he started dating this black chick, but that's besides the point. My point is that the confederate flag is redundant, it stands for values that modern america is completely against, and no one should miss it when Obama bans it personally.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

ULTIMATEPRIMETIME said:


> You're literally comparing getting rid of a redundant flag to nazis and ISIS committing atrocities. The only place the confederate flag should be is in a museum and my hick grandma's guest room that my uncle sleeps in because she's senile and thinks the flag will convert him to a higher state of being. It all started when he started sleeping with this black chick, but that's besides the point. My point is that the confederate flag is redundant and no one should miss it when Obama bans it personally.


This wasn't at all what I was saying, but in my experience, shitposters like you have quite a talent for ignoring reality.

Now tell us more about the black chick your granddaddy cheated on grandma with. That's totally relevant to this thread.


----------



## ULTIMATEPRIMETIME (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> This wasn't at all what I was saying, but in my experience, shitposters like you have quite a talent for ignoring reality.
> 
> Now tell us more about the black chick your granddaddy cheated on grandma with. That's totally relevant to this thread.


The story was a metaphor, a parable if you will, that gives an example of just the kind of person who would give a shit about this dumb flag being trashed. Just because you disagree with me and don't understand my opinion doesn't mean you get to label me a shitposter, like you think you're some Kiwi cool kid like dynastia who can actually get away with content-less ad hominem attacks.


----------



## José Mourinho (Jun 26, 2015)

/gamergatehq/ is now on this matter, comparing the incident with *succeeding with destroying the First Amendment.*

https://archive.md/0MzAY


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

ULTIMATEPRIMETIME said:


> The story was a metaphor, a parable if you will, that explains just the kind of person who gives a shit about this dumb flag. Just because you disagree with me and don't understand my opinion doesn't mean you get to label me a shitposter like the Kiwi cool kid you think you are.


Well I've said it multiple times, but you've ignored every instance I've pointed it out: I don't care what dumb reasons people want their stupid fucking flag for. Me telling them they have no right to fly it: a) makes me a prisoner in my own cage, and b) will not only do nothing to stop them from thinking that killing all Jews is a good idea, but convince them that I'm the Jew who's trying to stop them and they must fight even harder.

I understand that you want to ban something you disagree with. The questions I have?

Why do you think it is a good idea?

How do you know this won't set a bad precedent in the future?

Who do you think should enforce these ideas?

Do you think this will do anything to stop people like David Duke, or will they just become more convinced that they're right?

How do you know someone won't use these very same laws to come after something you love?

Since I oppose censorship, I don't have to answer any of these stupid fucking questions.


----------



## UnwiseKhan (Jun 26, 2015)

@*Asterisk*  , when you're breaking out the Hitler comparisons it's time to get a glass of warm milk and go to bed. Hopefully you'll realize what an autist you were being in the morning.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

UnwiseKhan said:


> @Asterisk , when you're breaking out the Hitler comparisons it's time to get a glass of warm milk and go to bed. Hopefully you'll realize what an autist you were being in the morning.


I believe @ULTIMATEPRIMETIME was the first to bring up Hitler or ISIS or whatever, and I merely desired to counter his point. It's hard to keep track of all those angry white guys who want to kill the Jews.

I have no desire to Godwin this thread. It's already in a bad enough death spiral that I'm pretty confident it'll either enter Spergatory soon, or have several posts deleted.

@You are right though, @UnwiseKhan. Now's probably a pretty good time for bed. Or at the very least some heavy drinking and some episodes of_ The Sopranos_.


----------



## ULTIMATEPRIMETIME (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Well I've said it multiple times, but you've ignored every instance I've pointed it out: I don't care what dumb reasons people want their stupid fucking flag for.


Well you seem awfully quick to defend it. Why do you keep defending this racist flag?



*Asterisk* said:


> Me telling them they have no right to fly it: a) makes me a prisoner in my own cage, and b) will not only do nothing to stop them from thinking that killing all Jews is a good idea, but convince them that I'm the Jew who's trying to stop them and they must fight even harder.


Telling people they can't fly an offensive flag makes you a "prisoner in your own cage"?



*Asterisk* said:


> I understand that you want to ban something you disagree with. The questions I have?
> 
> Why do you think it is a good idea?


My answer was in every one of my posts in this thread: There is a fine line between freedom of speech, and downright crimes against humanity. Slaves are one of these crimes, and to use the confederate flag for a state, or to hang it up near a building, means you support what the Confederacy stood for. This is what you're defending.



*Asterisk* said:


> How do you know this won't set a bad precedent in the future?


Because this has happened before and no one gave a shit about it then.



*Asterisk* said:


> Who do you think should enforce these ideas?


Obama, in person, and then Rick Santorum when he gets elected in 2016.



*Asterisk* said:


> Do you think this will do anything to stop people like David Duke, or will they just become more convinced that they're right?


David Duke is like literally a wizard, and he's just crazy and crazies should end up in hospitals.



*Asterisk* said:


> How do you know someone won't use these very same laws to come after something you love?


Because I don't hate crimes against humanity.



*Asterisk* said:


> Since I oppose censorship, I don't have to answer any of these stupid fucking questions.


No, you choose not to answer those questions because you have no argument and I have to make one for you. It's okay, you just need someone to help you. here:



			
				*Asterisk* said:
			
		

> Hi I'm asterisk and I hate niggers. I'm afraid that the King Nigger over at the whitehouse is gonna take my rights away and burn my flags because he knows that intellectuals like me would sell his monkey ass if the confederates had won! I need my flags so I will always remember that the south _will_ in fact rise again, and when it does I will fire the first bullet! Someday I will be just like my idol Dylan Roof. Call me sometime, Roofey!!


----------



## Null (Jun 26, 2015)

ULTIMATEPRIMETIME said:


> Telling people they can't fly an offensive flag makes you a "prisoner in your own cage"?


Telling people they can't wave a flag is a pretty embarrassing and trivial limitation in personal freedom.

Tho I agree with that last part about the king baboon and his baboon army coming to take my guns.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 26, 2015)

dabluearmedbandit said:


> I have a bigger issue with how homophobic the Confederate flag is. The Confederacy had no openly gay or trans soldiers serving, meanwhile the North was made 100% of faggot liberals. This is a tragedy I cannot forgive, and I stand with Apple's decision to rewrite history and control thought.


The north also had niggers in there army


----------



## Vitriol (Jun 26, 2015)

I think the only way to settle this complex and controversial issue is to have some kind of massive organised fight....


----------



## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 26, 2015)

vitriol said:


> I think the only way to settle this complex and controversial issue is to have some kind of massive organised fight....



We did 154 years ago. It was called 'The War of Bitch Slapping the Redneck States".


----------



## KingGeedorah (Jun 26, 2015)

Flags are just early indicators of whether or not a person is a giant douche bag.


----------



## Organic Fapcup (Jun 26, 2015)

ITT: Americuck getting mad about old cloth


----------



## ShavedSheep (Jun 26, 2015)

For real though, if you try take it off the top of the General Lee I'm going to fuck someone up.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 26, 2015)

ShavedSheep said:


> For real though, if you try take it off the top of the General Lee I'm going to fuck someone up.




why? convertibles are p cool


----------



## ShavedSheep (Jun 26, 2015)

CatParty said:


> why? convertibles are p cool


You're a Northerner, you'll never understand.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 26, 2015)

ShavedSheep said:


> You're a Northerner, you'll never understand.




fite me, racist


----------



## Dalish (Jun 26, 2015)

The Knife's Husbando said:


> We did 154 years ago. It was called 'The War of Bitch Slapping the Redneck States".



you mean the war of northern aggression?


----------



## Ariel (Jun 26, 2015)

BAN ALL FLAGS!, EVEN THE SECRET ONES!


----------



## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 26, 2015)

I fully sympathize with people bummed out about the flag ban. I'll miss having this at my house.


----------



## Marvin (Jun 26, 2015)

Miraak said:


> you mean the war of northern aggression?


the south will rise again! #civilwarhalftime


----------



## Lefty's Revenge (Jun 26, 2015)

Superior Watermelon said:


> With everything going on people are complaining about having the Confederate flag scrubbed of the face of the Earth. I feel like people should be able to fly that flag, it has deep roots in culture to this country, especially to the south, and people's ancestors died under fighting for their beliefs.



My ancestors died because of your ancestor's beliefs. 


The flag shouldn't be on state or public property anymore.


----------



## Teddy (Jun 26, 2015)

According to Ann Coulter,  Republican Nikki Haley knows nothing about the rebel flag because she's an immigrant.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ikki-haley-an-immigrant-who-doesnt-understand

what the hell? That's like saying a pure American (parents are American citizens) can know nothing about Russian history sorely because they're American.  They are such things as research and studying. Unless she means that you could only know your history if you are of that race/nationality/etc. but in this day in age, anyone can google European history and claim they're the top scholar of all things European,  yet aren't of the descent.

Strange world we live in.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> This wasn't at all what I was saying, but in my experience, shitposters like you have quite a talent for ignoring reality.
> 
> Now tell us more about the black chick your granddaddy cheated on grandma with. That's totally relevant to this thread.


Be nice to @ULTIMATEPRIMETIME , Mad Chad is more a man than you will ever be and devaluing his insightful and well thought remarks as 'shitposts' proves you just can't make a point without name calling.


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> Be nice to @ULTIMATEPRIMETIME , Mad Chad is more a man than you will ever be and devaluing his insightful and well thought remarks as 'shitposts' proves you just can't make a point without name calling.



yeah and you're being racist because Mad Chad is a black individual


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Opposed and believe it should be hunted down and prosecuted, but not because it violates freedom of speech. It's both very clearly an obscenity, and physically and mentally abusive to the people filmed. I also feel the same way about the works of Max Hardcore and Rob Black, incitement, people who send legitimate threats, and a few other things.



So wait, you're totally fine with a flag that basically glorifies slavery, torture, murder and treason.

But a dude having consensual sex with people paid to do it, who often came back for more, that's where you draw the line and you're okay with the government not forcing Amazon to sell it?

Because Max Hardcore actually went to prison for nothing that was illegal for him to do, solely because it was on video.  The government actually prosecuted him for his speech.

Meanwhile, you think it's a horror that Amazon isn't forced to sell things they don't want to sell.

Oh, plus George Lucas is the Devil for not releasing the masters of shit he actually outright fucking owns.  What the fuck man.


----------



## Lefty's Revenge (Jun 26, 2015)

Miraak said:


> man chill out
> a flag has no power unless you give it power
> 
> I am the biggest left wing kike ever but the flag existing doesn't do anything negatively to me despite the history of jew lynching in the south by the klan
> ...



Did you like miss this entire thread? 

1. A flag is supposed to be a unifying symbol. The confederate flag, in a state or federal position, fails to do that because of its history.

2. If the flag offends tax payers whos money goes to its upkeep than we have every right to say it should come down. 

3. At no point did I say people couldn't fly it in their own homes or elsewhere in private. But its currently flying in South Carolinas capitol and its the state flag of Mississippi. Not to mention its scattered all across state owned confederate memorials across the country. 

And all of that, I believe, should come to an end.


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)

sorry if my drunkeness is a bit off topic but the History Network ran out of history to cover (or cares about ratings or some shit because capitalism) decided to take time off from making reality shows about ice road truckers to do a show about what happens after all of humanity dies.  Out of all the landmarks in America, the one that they predict will last the longest is the confederate memorial at Stone Mountain, Georgia.. the birthplace of the KKK and Kenneth from 30 Rock.  That's kind of depressing.


----------



## Lefty's Revenge (Jun 26, 2015)

Teddy said:


> According to Ann Coulter,  Republican Nikki Haley knows nothing about the rebel flag because she's an immigrant.
> 
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ikki-haley-an-immigrant-who-doesnt-understand
> 
> ...


Shes full of shit because shes lived in the U.S. for basically her whole life. But alot of non-Americans are in fact generally clueless about the history of the American Civil War and what not. Not that they really shouldn't be. If you're living in Pakistan or some shit you've got bigger fish to fry than what happened during Sherman's march or something.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 26, 2015)

hurrhurrhurr said:


> he birthplace of the KKK and Kenneth from 30 Rock. That's kind of depressing.



and jake the snake roberts


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 26, 2015)

Lefty's Revenge said:


> Shes full of shit because shes lived in the U.S. for basically her whole life. But alot of non-Americans are in fact generally clueless about the history of the American Civil War and what not. Not that they really shouldn't be. If you're living in Pakistan or some shit you've got bigger fish to fry than what happened during Sherman's march or something.



A lot of _Americans_ are clueless about American history.  Including Ann Coulter herself, although a lot of her stupidity is just an act.  I wouldn't even be surprised if she actually knew Haley is an American citizen and just called her an immigrant to rile up her racist fans and generate controversy.


----------



## chimpburgers (Jun 26, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> A lot of _Americans_ are clueless about American history.  Including Anne Coulter herself, although a lot of her stupidity is just an act.  I wouldn't even be surprised if she actually knew Haley is an American citizen and just called her an immigrant to rile up her racist fans and generate controversy.


Ann does a lot of the shit she does to help sell her books. The strategy seems to work perfectly for her as a sales pitch.


----------



## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 26, 2015)

Lol this thread. "Look how edgy and racist I am" VS. "look how edgy and librul I am".    Your great grandparents died over this, on either side? Well who gives a fuck, its not like you knew them.  I'm never gonna understand getting all worked up about family history (or history in general) you had no part in. If your enlightened Northerner grandparents were still alive, they would be even more racist than a modern day Southerner and you wouldn't be defending their honor.


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)

dabluearmedbandit said:


> I have a bigger issue with how homophobic the Confederate flag is. The Confederacy had no openly gay or trans soldiers serving, meanwhile the North was made 100% of faggot liberals. This is a tragedy I cannot forgive, and I stand with Apple's decision to rewrite history and control thought.



my great great grandfather was a confederate spy who dressed up as a woman and would sneak into union camps to get intel so sorry to burst your bubble but the Confederacy totally had trannies who served


----------



## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 26, 2015)

hurrhurrhurr said:


> my great great grandfather was a confederate spy who dressed up as a woman and would sneak into union camps to get intel so sorry to burst your bubble but the Confederacy totally had trannies who served



Okay  so with this new Intel I would just like to announce that basically I'm back to honestly representing the Confederacy  because they  equally let fags hate niggers too.


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)

dabluearmedbandit said:


> Okay  so with this new Intel I would just like to announce that basically I'm back to honestly representing the Confederacy  because they  equally let fags hate niggers too.



Though if my great great grandfather were a full blown fag I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be here today


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jun 26, 2015)

hurrhurrhurr said:


> my great great grandfather was a confederate spy who dressed up as a woman and would sneak into union camps to get intel so sorry to burst your bubble but the Confederacy totally had trannies who served



I've heard stories of your grandfather! His name was Kimiko Nakamura and he was one of the leading traps of The Civilist War. Semper Fi to xim!


----------



## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 26, 2015)

dabluearmedbandit said:


> Lol this thread. "Look how edgy and racist I am" VS. "look how edgy and librul I am".    Your great grandparents died over this, on either side? Well who gives a fuck, its not like you knew them.  I'm never gonna understand getting all worked up about family history (or history in general) you had no part in. If your enlightened Northerner grandparents were still alive, they would be even more racist than a modern day Southerner and you wouldn't be defending their honor.



I'm not responsible for the sins of my fathers. I am however, responsible for the sins of my children.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> So wait, you're totally fine with a flag that basically glorifies slavery, torture, murder and treason.
> 
> But a dude having consensual sex with people paid to do it, who often came back for more, that's where you draw the line and you're okay with the government not forcing Amazon to sell it?
> 
> Because Max Hardcore actually went to prison for nothing that was illegal for him to do, solely because it was on video.  The government actually prosecuted him for his speech.


So you're totally okay with a man who raped women during shoots and abused women on set to the point of serious physical harm such as vaginal hemorrhaging, but a piece of cloth is totally okay to ban?

Let me clarify that while I do think Max Hardcore should be locked in prison for the rest of his life, I don't think it should be for obscenity. The fact is, he abused, took advantage of, and raped women in his movies. There's some fucked up shit that happens in porn, but when you cross the line into deliberately causing serious harm to the workers involved, you need to be brought down for it. I'd support the same thing happening to those in pro wrestling who deliberately allow the genuine abuse of workers in their shows, like Dixie Carter for allowing Jeff Hardy to deliver an unprotected chair shot to the back of Mr. Anderson's head. 

There are many instances of serious physical and mental abuse in show business, and they need to be clamped down on.



AnOminous said:


> Meanwhile, you think it's a horror that Amazon isn't forced to sell things they don't want to sell.
> 
> Oh, plus George Lucas is the Devil for not releasing the masters of shit he actually outright fucking owns.  What the fuck man.


Amazon sells countless products with offensive messages. Including other national flags which glorify slavery, torture, murder, and treason. Legally, they do have a right to decide which products they don't want to stock. Morally, it's both a dangerous mentality to have and outright hypocritical.

It's the same thing with George Lucas. Legally, he does have the right to decide which of his products he wants to sell, and which he wants to hide or destroy. Morally, what Lucas is doing is atrocious. He's taking pieces of art and popular culture, and butchering it and hiding it from the public. I don't even approve of him hiding things that the world was better off for not having exist, like the Holiday Special. The world's art should never be censured after release no matter if the creators want it.

Besides, don't you recognize the bad precedent it creates if the likes of Amazon continue this precedent to its logical conclusion? Should Ebay start pulling things like Bill Cosby memorabilia? Should iTunes pull music with racist, sexist, or gaybashing messages like the works of Ice Cube? Should Steam pull games like Postal and Hatred from the shop? If you answer yes to any of these questions, do you have anywhere you draw the line? How do you know this power won't be abused in the future?

All those things are actions these companies have the power to do if they want. It's still immoral for them to do so.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> The fact is, he abused, took advantage of, and raped women in his movies.




*simulated rape


----------



## Guardian G.I. (Jun 26, 2015)

I don't get the whole argument, to be honest.
The CSA is my favourite underdog nation in Victoria 2 - in Robmod, you can restart the Atlantic Slave Trade, enslave all spics in the Caribbean region and take no shit from anyone.  And of course, they have the coolest flag in the game. Too bad USA crushes them every time, and it's impossible to win the Civil War as the CSA without gratuitous abuse of the debug console. 

Also, I've finally joined the people who have rebel flags in their avatars.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> So you're totally okay with a man who raped women during shoots and abused women on set to the point of serious physical harm such as vaginal hemorrhaging, but a piece of cloth is totally okay to ban?
> 
> Let me clarify that while I do think Max Hardcore should be locked in prison for the rest of his life, I don't think it should be for obscenity. The fact is, he abused, took advantage of, and raped women in his movies. There's some fucked up shit that happens in porn, but when you cross the line into deliberately causing serious harm to the workers involved, you need to be brought down for it. I'd support the same thing happening to those in pro wrestling who deliberately allow the genuine abuse of workers in their shows, like Dixie Carter for allowing Jeff Hardy to deliver an unprotected chair shot to the back of Mr. Anderson's head.
> 
> ...


Star Wars is a fucking movie and it's not morally wrong that the original cuts are withheld by the man who owns them.


----------



## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> Star Wars is a fucking movie and it's not morally wrong that the original cuts are withheld by the man who owns them.



You don't think Star Wars is comparable to the Civil War?  What do you think has been happening between them and Trekkies? You really need to stop being so ignorant of history dude, its embarrassing.  

Me and Asterisk are gonna go watch the original trilogy and listen to some 2LiveCrew and Johnny Rebel, and I bet you aren't gonna get invited.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 26, 2015)

The Knife's Husbando said:


> It was called 'The War of Bitch Slapping the Redneck States".


A lot of people from both sides died.



Teddy said:


> According to Ann Coulter,  Republican Nikki Haley knows nothing about the rebel flag because she's an immigrant.
> 
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ikki-haley-an-immigrant-who-doesnt-understand
> 
> ...



More to the point, Haley isn't an immigrant.  That's just factually incorrect.  And it wouldn't be the first time Coulter has embarrassed herself on TV about basic facts that everyone else seems to know:



Spoiler: Video
















Sometimes I think she may be less of a liar than just .


----------



## KingGeedorah (Jun 26, 2015)

Woah saw some Max Hardcore facts being thrown around and now I know you fags have gone off the deep end.

Faggots, wave your flags or don't. No one really gives a shit. 

Or ban the flags. Who gives a shit?


----------



## Silver (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> It's the same thing with George Lucas. Legally, he does have the right to decide which of his products he wants to sell, and which he wants to hide or destroy. Morally, what Lucas is doing is atrocious. He's taking pieces of art and popular culture, and butchering it and hiding it from the public. I don't even approve of him hiding things that the world was better off for not having exist, like the Holiday Special. The world's art should never be censured after release no matter if the creators want it.



Not that I _really_ want to dignify such a batshit insane argument with a response, especially not one that addresses the batshit insane comparison, but...  Where do you draw the line when it comes to this stuff? Does this apply to any art that has been released?

A forum I used to occasionally visit would automatically delete any topics that had not been active for six months. This included fanfiction. I once wrote a fanfiction and posted it there, but to the best of my recollection I only ever posted it there and never really bothered saving the work in a Word document because it wasn't supposed to be some great masterwork anyway. Is my failure to save it, and the fact that it's now lost to history, also a moral outrage, because I am denying the few people who read this (unfinished) fanfiction the ability to re-read it, even though I specifically stated in the topic that I was not going to finish writing the fanfiction due to personal reasons?

I once posted a piece of music that I had composed on a sheet-music-sharing site. I just uploaded it so I could share it with others, but I don't think I even bothered crediting myself in it, so there's no name on who wrote it. I took it down a while later because a) I didn't want people potentially stealing it with me having no way to prove it is mine and b) I was entering it into a contest, and didn't want the people running the contest to potentially see it on this site - without my name attached to it, with a date that well predates the contest date - and accuse me of stealing the piece from this website with, again, no way to prove I am the same person. Is this _also_ a moral outrage against the community who may have seen my waltz and the couple of people who commented on it?

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.


----------



## Pikonic (Jun 26, 2015)

Let the sons of traitors and the daughters of belligerents fly high their rag for God to see!

Bitches still fucking lost the war either way.


----------



## nad7155 (Jun 26, 2015)

It's a piece of fabric with a design on it.

I know the connotations that it brings, but if a flag can still bring such racial divide, what does that say?


----------



## Sanic (Jun 26, 2015)




----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

CatParty said:


> *simulated rape


I imagine there were times where it was just simulated, but there were also very clearly times when he performed acts on those women they didn't agree to beforehand and physically hurt them in the process. Rape or abuse, whatever you call it, that is unacceptable. I feel the same way about film directors who abuse their actors, actresses, stuntmen, and stuntwomen.



KingofManga420 said:


> Star Wars is a fucking movie and it's not morally wrong that the original cuts are withheld by the man who owns them.


Good to know you're just as oblivious to context as ever. At no point did I say that all things which are morally wrong are equal. Lying to your parents that you used a condom after you knocked up your neighbors wife is not the same thing as lying to your parents that you only gave your younger sister the Josh Duggar treatment once and you'll never do it again.



Altissimo said:


> Not that I _really_ want to dignify such a batshit insane argument with a response, especially not one that addresses the batshit insane comparison, but...  Where do you draw the line when it comes to this stuff? Does this apply to any art that has been released?


I don't have or need a line. Just because something's immoral doesn't mean there should be a law against it. There are countless immoral things people can do that don't and shouldn't break the law. Competitive eating competitions, for instance.

I don't worry about a registered work disappearing just because the author wants to make it go away. The Library of Congress always has a physical copy of any work of sufficient importance. Copyright is automatic, but to register the copyright and prevent fining, it needs to be sent and registered to the US Copyright Office. Assuming the apocalypse doesn't occur, at some point in history, the copyrights on these works will expire, and people should be able to find any edition of the work they want easily.

Until then, things like George Lucas hiding his own work is still morally wrong. But there doesn't need to be any new laws to come about to keep George Lucas, or anybody else who wants to do what he did, from doing it. You can't legislate morality, but that doesn't mean it's okay to behave in an immoral fashion.


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

Is asterisk taking it too far again?

*Reads thread*

Damn it man. Have we learnt nothing from the foreskin incident?


----------



## Null (Jun 26, 2015)

maybe we should bandage his cock in a confederate flag5


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I imagine there were times where it was just simulated, but there were also very clearly times when he performed acts on those women they didn't agree to beforehand and physically hurt them in the process. Rape or abuse, whatever you call it, that is unacceptable. I feel the same way about film directors who abuse their actors, actresses, stuntmen, and stuntwomen.
> 
> 
> Good to know you're just as oblivious to context as ever. At no point did I say that all things which are morally wrong are equal. Lying to your parents that you used a condom after you knocked up your neighbors wife is not the same thing as lying to your parents that you only gave your younger sister the Josh Duggar treatment once and you'll never do it again.
> ...


It's not immoral. It's a movie. You are autistic. Enjoy life.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

KingGeedorah said:


> Woah saw some Max Hardcore facts being thrown around and now I know you fags have gone off the deep end.
> 
> Faggots, wave your flags or don't. No one really gives a shit.
> 
> Or ban the flags. Who gives a shit?


It's not about weather you support the flag's message or not. Personally, I find racism and slavery to be the two greatest relics of barbarism in the history of the planet. Most of those I find flowing the Confederate Flag in my experience have been retarded hillbillies worthy of nothing but contempt. But I'd still rather live in a country where people are free to fly whatever hateful message or iconography they want than a country which tries to bully people into morality by either legislation or corporate fiat.

As far as companies dropping the Confederate Flag from their retail listings, I never said there should be a law preventing companies from doing that. Companies have the legal right to limit freedom of expression within themselves if they so choose. I still oppose it, though, because free expression itself is a good value to have and to hold, especially during times when people are panicking.

For instance, if Dylan Roof and Timothy McVeigh switched time periods in which they carried out their attacks and people found the complete Ragnar Benson Collection in McVeigh's attic and Amazon and co. dropped those and other militia and survivalist materials and books from their listings, I'd oppose that just as much as I oppose this. Or, on the other end of the right wing nativist spectrum, when an ISIS guerrilla shoots up a synagogue in New York next year and Amazon and co. remove anything ISIS positive from their store listings, I'll oppose that too.


----------



## chimpburgers (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I imagine there were times where it was just simulated, but there were also very clearly times when he performed acts on those women they didn't agree to beforehand and physically hurt them in the process. Rape or abuse, whatever you call it, that is unacceptable. I feel the same way about film directors who abuse their actors, actresses, stuntmen, and stuntwomen.
> 
> 
> Good to know you're just as oblivious to context as ever. At no point did I say that all things which are morally wrong are equal. Lying to your parents that you used a condom after you knocked up your neighbors wife is not the same thing as lying to your parents that you only gave your younger sister the Josh Duggar treatment once and you'll never do it again.
> ...


Why do you have to be so long winded with your posts? Relax.


----------



## Sanic (Jun 26, 2015)

A-U-T-I-S-M What does it mean?


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

dollarpennypincher said:


> Why do you have to be so long winded with your posts? Relax.


Autism speaks. It's time to listen.


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> It's not about weather you support the flag's message or not. Personally, I find racism and slavery to be the two greatest relics of barbarism in the history of the planet. Most of those I find flowing the Confederate Flag in my experience have been retarded hillbillies worthy of nothing but contempt. But I'd still rather live in a country where people are free to fly whatever hateful message or iconography they want than a country which tries to bully people into morality by either legislation or corporate fiat.
> 
> As far as companies dropping the Confederate Flag from their retail listings, I never said there should be a law preventing companies from doing that. Companies have the legal right to limit freedom of expression within themselves if they so choose. I still oppose it, though, because free expression itself is a good value to have and to hold, especially during times when people are panicking.
> 
> For instance, if Dylan Roof and Timothy McVeigh switched time periods in which they carried out their attacks and people found the complete Ragnar Benson Collection in McVeigh's attic and Amazon and co. dropped those and other militia and survivalist materials and books from their listings, I'd oppose that just as much as I oppose this. Or, on the other end of the right wing nativist spectrum, when an ISIS guerrilla shoots up a synagogue in New York next year and Amazon and co. remove anything ISIS positive from their store listings, I'll oppose that too.



TL;DR


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> It's not immoral. It's a movie. You are autistic. Enjoy life.


Again, when I say immoral, I'm talking about a very broad spectrum.

Stealing a video game from your best friend is immoral, and so is being Josh Duggar. But just because both these things are immoral doesn't make them equally immoral.



Ass Manager 3000 said:


> TL;DR


What's that? I'm too busy to read acronyms.


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

It's like watching a car drive off a cliff.

Except more autistic.


----------



## TheAmazingAxolotl (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Again, when I say immoral, I'm talking about a very broad spectrum.
> 
> Stealing a video game from your best friend is immoral, and so is being Josh Duggar. But just because both these things are immoral doesn't make them equally immoral.



How the fuck do we go from debating the morality of pulling the Confederate flag from stores to shit that is completely unrelated. Is that you, Chris?


----------



## chimpburgers (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Again, when I say immoral, I'm talking about a very broad spectrum.
> 
> Stealing a video game from your best friend is immoral, and so is being Josh Duggar. But just because both these things are immoral doesn't make them equally immoral.
> 
> ...


You're just pulling non sequiturs out of your ass at this point.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

TheAmazingAxolotl said:


> How the fuck do we go from debating the morality of pulling the Confederate flag from stores to shit that is completely unrelated. Is that you, Chris?


I saw people ask for me to explain my position, and I explained it. Then one of the guys in the back called me an ISIS sympathizer or a Nazi sympathizer. Now we're here.

Of course none of it will matter, since most of these posts'll likely be deleted soon.



dollarpennypincher said:


> You're just pulling non sequiturs out of your ass at this point.


People in glass houses, dollarpennypincher, should not defend the suppression of freedom of expression.


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Again, when I say immoral, I'm talking about a very broad spectrum.
> 
> Stealing a video game from your best friend is immoral, and so is being Josh Duggar. But just because both these things are immoral doesn't make them equally immoral.
> 
> ...


I'm not questioning the level, I'm questioning that you think what George Lucas did on any level to the property that he owns is immoral. It makes me laugh if you legit take it that seriously.


----------



## TheAmazingAxolotl (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I saw people ask for me to explain my position, and I explained it. Then one of the guys in the back called me an ISIS sympathizer or a Nazi sympathizer. Now we're here.
> 
> Of course none of it will matter, since most of these posts'll likely be deleted soon.



Bruh it wouldn't be so bad if you didn't try to explain yourself in the most autistic way possible.


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

@*Asterisk* 

You're beginning to look like a tryhard.


----------



## Superior Watermelon (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> People in glass houses, dollarpennypincher, should not defend the suppression of freedom of expression.



I don't think that's how the saying goes


----------



## chimpburgers (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> @*Asterisk*
> 
> You're beginning to look like a tryhard.


I think he's purposefully trying to stir shit like he did with the circumcision thread a while back. It's so apparent. He never knows when to just shut the fuck up.


----------



## Locksnap (Jun 26, 2015)

Shit nigga I agree that companies like Apple distancing themselves from anything with the Confederate flag in it is a shit move, and specifically a disservice to the maker of Ultimate General: Gettysburg (which is a great game made by a cool dude). But its not an attack on freedom. So long as people can wave the flags privately I don't think its worth sweating about.


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

What have we learned today?

Cocks, Confederate flags and George Lucas are @*Asterisk*'s triggers.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

TheAmazingAxolotl said:


> Bruh it wouldn't be so bad if you didn't try to explain yourself in the most autistic way possible.


It's a complex topic. There's not an easy way to explain the fine details of something like this, especially when the target of defense in question's an unsympathetic icon of braindead hillbillies.

I defend it anyway because it's the right thing to do, and if you'll take the time to actually look at my arguments, maybe you can bother actually refuting some of them rather than send this thread further into hell with cheap baiting and bitching.



dollarpennypincher said:


> I think he's purposefully trying to stir shit like he did with the circumcision thread a while back. It's so apparent. He never knows when to just shut the fuck up.


I have no intention of actually insulting anybody in this thread, and if I have, I'm sincerely sorry to both the person I insulted and the moderator who has to deal with me taking things further into the gutter because of it.


----------



## Superior Watermelon (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> What have we learned today?
> 
> Cocks, Confederate flags and George Lucas are @*Asterisk*'s triggers.


To be fair after what they did to Indy, George Lucas triggers me too.


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 26, 2015)

Locksnap said:


> Shit nigga I agree that companies like Apple distancing themselves from anything with the Confederate flag in it is a shit move, and specifically a disservice to the maker of Ultimate General: Gettysburg (which is a great game made by a cool dude). But its not an attack on freedom. So long as people can wave the flags privately I don't think its worth sweating about.



They told them to take the Confederate flag out.  The makers of the game told them, basically, to fuck off.

But they restored it unaltered.

My guess is this was some marketing tard's idea, and once someone without shit for brains saw it, they realized it was retarded and reversed the decision.

I guess we'll see what they do on any other stuff that got unfairly targeted by this BS.


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)

Guys Star Wars did have rebels except they were fighting for democracy rather than fighting to marry their cousin and have slaves


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

hurrhurrhurr said:


> Guys Star Wars did have rebels except they were fighting for democracy rather than fighting to marry their cousin and have slaves


Luke kissed his sister
George Lucas is a hero for removing this confederate filth from pop culture


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)




----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

Locksnap said:


> Shit nigga I agree that companies like Apple distancing themselves from anything with the Confederate flag in it is a shit move, and specifically a disservice to the maker of Ultimate General: Gettysburg (which is a great game made by a cool dude). But its not an attack on freedom. So long as people can wave the flags privately I don't think its worth sweating about.


It's not something I'm mad at the government for, and I never said what the likes of Apple are doing is or should be illegal. It's their company, but it's still 



Ass Manager 3000 said:


> What have we learned today?
> 
> Cocks, Confederate flags and George Lucas are @*Asterisk*'s triggers.


Life's too short for triggers.



AnOminous said:


> They told them to take the Confederate flag out.  The makers of the game told them, basically, to fuck off.
> 
> But they restored it unaltered.
> 
> ...


This is indeed very good, and also something I somewhat expected. I'm pretty sure you could play Doom or Wolfenstein on a school computer during break if you want as well.

What disappoints me is that shit like this happens every single time there's a sensational crime of some sort. Like with South Park and the images of Muhammad.



hurrhurrhurr said:


> Guys Star Wars did have rebels except they were fighting for democracy rather than fighting to marry their cousin and have slaves





KingofManga420 said:


> Luke kissed his sister
> George Lucas is a hero for removing this confederate filth from pop culture



I only brought up Star Wars as an example relevant to my position on the Confederate Flag. Can you please not bring it up again unless it's relevant to the thread? Or at least a funny joke?


----------



## Mrs Paul (Jun 26, 2015)

Want to fly one on your own property?  Be my guest.  On government property?  Fuck no.  (And take down that bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest.  The guy was one of the founders of the KKK, for fucks sake)

I just don't understand why people think it's such a celebration of heritage, when the flag has been used to represent such negative bullshit.  Slavery, racism, lynching, the KKK, traitors, etc.  So many hateful causes, but people are all like, "IT'S SOUTHERN PRIDE, Y'ALL!!!"  Pride in WHAT???  That you're proud you fought against the US?  These people also seem to be the first to talk about their patriotism -- but they're flying a flag that was used by people who wanted to LEAVE the US.  The Confederates were traitors.  And don't kid yourselves that it wasn't about slavery -- Alexander Stephens, the VP of the CSA said as much in his "Cornerstone Speech", that the cause was founded on the notion that blacks were inferior, and that the white man had a God-given right to own slaves.  

I don't want to ban people from flying it on their own private property.  You want to do so, go right ahead.  I'll think you're a racist and/or stupid fuckwit, but hey, go for it.  But as soon as it goes up on public property, that's where it ends.  
(There's this teabagger in my neighborhood who hangs up various flags -- hung the flag upside down back in 2008 after Obama was elected, the Marine flag, the Gadsen flag, etc.  She once had the Confederate flag up.  I was like, bitch, you live in PITTSBURGH)


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> It's not something I'm mad at the government for, and I never said what the likes of Apple are doing is or should be illegal. It's their company, but it's still
> 
> 
> Life's too short for triggers.
> ...


 I keep bringing it up cause the fact that you think what George Lucas did is immoral IS a funny joke


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

I absolutely support the removal of the Confederate Flag and Iconography in many of the places where they currently stand, and even the renaming of places, if that's what the voters want.



KingofManga420 said:


> I keep bringing it up cause the fact that you think what George Lucas did is immoral IS a funny joke


Again, I'm using "immoral" in a very broad sense of the term. It's sort of like how you can use the phrase "rock" to describe the Rolling Stones and Nickelback, or use the phrase "game" to describe Red Dead Redemption and Duke Nukem Forever.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> It's like watching a car drive off a cliff.
> 
> Except more autistic.


So it's like watching Son-Chu driving off a cliff.


----------



## Squealer (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I absolutely support the removal of the Confederate Flag and Iconography in many of the places where they currently stand, and even the renaming of places, if that's what the voters want.


You support this country being a christian nation than. Majority rules right?


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 26, 2015)

@koyemshii, since you forgot how to properly use the quote function, no, since that's a blatant violation of the Constitution and religious freedom, both things worth fighting for.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> @*Asterisk*
> 
> You're beginning to look like a tryhard.


"beginning"


----------



## Cute Anime Girl (Jun 26, 2015)

When does it become super obvious that people are just egging you on? Come on son.


----------



## Squealer (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> @koyemshii, since you forgot how to properly use the quote function, no, since that's a blatant violation of the Constitution and religious freedom, both things worth fighting for.


Removing something people disagree with goes into the realm of breaking freedom of speech.


----------



## dabluearmedbandit (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I absolutely support the removal of the Confederate Flag and Iconography in many of the places where they currently stand, and even the renaming of places, if that's what the voters want.
> 
> 
> Again, I'm using "immoral" in a very broad sense of the term. It's sort of like how you can use the phrase "rock" to describe the Rolling Stones and Nickelback, or use the phrase "game" to describe Red Dead Redemption and Duke Nukem Forever.



So are you saying you dont believe Nickleback fucking rocks? I was on your side until you said that, too far man. They make songs that respect Marines, songs that respect wolves, and countless songs to game to. Nickleback is a treasure, and I demand an apology.


----------



## Cuck Norris (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> This is the most retarded sentence I've ever read.
> 
> Please leave.


----------



## Squealer (Jun 26, 2015)

@*Asterisk* Why do you hate America? Did some redneck molest you or some shit? Watched too much Deliverence?


----------



## Watcher (Jun 26, 2015)

Is @*Asterisk* chimping out about people disagreeing with him again?


----------



## Squealer (Jun 26, 2015)

Cuddlebug said:


> Is @Asterisk chimping out about people disagreeing with him again?


He's a communist


----------



## Flowers For Sonichu (Jun 26, 2015)

@*Asterisk* every time you give me a negative rating it only makes me stronger much like when Darth Vader struck down Obi Wan


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I only brought up Star Wars as an example relevant to my position on the Confederate Flag. Can you please not bring it up again unless it's relevant to the thread? Or at least a funny joke?



Your arguments are less coherent than the prequel trilogy


----------



## Squealer (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> Your arguments are less coherent than the prequel trilogy


fucking hell, I'm more coherent than him. That's pretty bad


----------



## Dilbertmann (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> Your arguments are less coherent than the prequel trilogy



And here I thought the constant director's cuts of Return of the Jedi were incoherent


----------



## JU 199 (Jun 26, 2015)

koyemshii said:


> fucking hell, I'm more coherent than him. That's pretty bad



Plus you're not a raging communist who hates freedom and the market democracy.


----------



## Squealer (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> Plus you're not a raging communist who hates freedom and the market democracy.


I'm just a guy who hates everyone, everything, and everywhere. Fuck you all, except the guys. I ain't no faggot queer


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 26, 2015)

koyemshii said:


> I'm just a guy who hates everyone, everything, and everywhere. Fuck you all, except the guys. I ain't no faggot queer



You're not like the other people here.  I bet you know what the queers are doing to our soil.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 26, 2015)

Just a flag folks


----------



## BadaBadaBoom (Jun 26, 2015)

The confederate flag is dumb and I wouldnt masturbate into it.


----------



## EI 903 (Jun 26, 2015)

This forum is for deep thoughts and more serious discussion. Please be mindful when challenging someone's opinions and beliefs.

Stop being speds.


----------



## Pikonic (Jun 26, 2015)

Ass Manager 3000 said:


> It's like watching a car drive off a cliff.
> 
> Except more autistic.


Your avatar matches your post quite well.



Null said:


> maybe we should bandage his cock in a confederate flag5


May I recommend word filter "confederate flag" to "cock bandage"


----------



## DuskEngine (Jun 27, 2015)

I'm just disappointed that nobody's added the Rhodesian or Orange Free State flags to their avatars yet.


----------



## DirkBloodStormKing (Jun 27, 2015)

Alright, @*Asterisk* is being very spergy over a flag that only edgelords and racists would wave at all. 

Now, going to my thoughts on the flag, because I am what people consider to be a Northerner (born and raised in New York), I'm probably not the best person to speak on the subject because I am not a Southerner. However, I must say that waving the Confederate flag is pretty anti-American because the Confederate States fought against the Union (America). Due to it's horrible reputation of being associated with the Ku Klux Klan and white supremacists as well as slavery, it's pretty egregious that some state and federal buildings wave that flag because "muh Southern pride". There are other ways to be show your pride for your heritage such as barbeque, NASCAR, Pepsi, Coke, Dr. Pepper, the Kentucky Derby, squaredancing, various films and games that take place in the South, and other non-racist, offensive things that have a positive reputation that originated in the South. Of all the many things that originated in the South that people use to celebrate their heritage, it's sad that people choose to wave the Confederate flag as a means to celebrate it.

Any Northerner or foreigner that waves the Confederate flag is an edgelord though.


----------



## Van Darkholme (Jun 27, 2015)

DawnMachine said:


> I'm just disappointed that nobody's added the Rhodesian or Orange Free State flags to their avatars yet.



I thought about the nazi flag but that would've been _too edgy_.


----------



## Jaimas (Jun 27, 2015)

I happen to be of the belief that banning it is, to quote Maddox, _as dumbfuck as shit in a pant_. Let me elaborate.

The thing about the South's Flag is that whilst yes, it's a symbol of a bygone age that America has long since left behind (and, by and large, are richer for having lost), it's still one we should all note and all be aware of. If we ban it, we sort of risk running into the same madness that Europe has where even discussing Nazi war atrocities is a crime (yes, we know they happened, but a law mandating that you cannot discuss them is _madness_). This has, paradoxically, led to a situation where neo-nazis have a small but notable presence specifically because of the fucking Streisand Effect.

But there's something else to consider too. Ponder, if you will, the following:






I've been informed this comic isn't bad. I'll take Scott's word for it.

Being a filthy Northerner, I'm not someone who will make the argument that it being around is necessarily a good thing, but for better or for worse, it's part of our history as a country, and in a lot of ways, has sort of been enshrined Americana-style. Think of all the various places you see the Confederate Flag, away from bullshit political stuff, and you wind up with a surprisingly diverse amount of works it shows up in. The General Lee in _Dukes of Hazard_, referenced in the Terran Confederacy in _Starcraft_, have it as a backdrop in curiously racially-inclusive comic books like _Captain Confederacy_, and so on. The racial connotations for the flag are pretty shite, but there's another take we can look at and see in a very different light. 





I imagine Katsu's use of the flag is along these lines.

It's one of those things that I don't think can't be "taken back" by people who actually give a shit. That's not me saying it, either - a _lot_ of people would love to turn that symbol on its fucking head as the biggest possible "fuck you" to where it came from. When I've discussed the flag with Southerners, you have the obvious dipshit reasons, but you also have ones that have embraced it from a position of "_yeah, we did something stupid, we fucked up, but that very fucking up was kind of fucking important, so let's remember that and embrace it as a symbol of never fucking up that hard again._"

As it stands, I'm against banning it, and all for private citizens having it up (though it has no place being raised above governmental buildings, even in the deep south. Federal law says the US Flag goes highest.). I am also 100% in favor of southerners taking that flag and trying to do something better with it, even if it's just to piss off Stormfags (always a noble pursuit).


----------



## Superior Watermelon (Jun 27, 2015)

[QUOTE="Hellblazer, post: 801416, member: 180]
Stop being speds. 
[/QUOTE]

We're all posting on a website dedicated to following Chris Chan and other lolcows, it's hard not to be one under the circumstances.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 27, 2015)

Hellblazer said:


> Stop being speds.



And ignore the biggest non-issue debate since hash browns?


----------



## Handsome Pete (Jun 27, 2015)

*White Guy:* We did it! That horrible symbol of hate is finally being eradicated!
*Black Guy:* Neat. Can I have that raise now?
*White Guy:* Let's not go crazy.


----------



## Randall Fragg (Jun 27, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> I absolutely support the removal of the Confederate Flag and Iconography in many of the places where they currently stand, and even the renaming of places, if that's what the voters want.
> 
> 
> Again, I'm using "immoral" in a very broad sense of the term. It's sort of like how you can use the phrase "rock" to describe the Rolling Stones and Nickelback, or use the phrase "game" to describe Red Dead Redemption and Duke Nukem Forever.


Dude, don't diss Red Dead Redemption, that was a fun game.


----------



## Superior Watermelon (Jun 27, 2015)

Randall Fragg said:


> Dude, don't diss Red Dead Redemption, that was a fun game.


You took the bait


----------



## DrJoshii (Jun 27, 2015)

I always thought that the confederate flag represented the South rather than slavery.


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 27, 2015)

Someone just went up and took the fucking thing down.

And got arrested of course.  I'd like to see them prosecute that to the end.  Charge is "defacing a monument," which might not even accurately describe what was done.

They haven't replaced it, though.


----------



## Bronchitis that Lingers (Jun 27, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Someone just went up and took the fucking thing down.
> 
> And got arrested of course.  I'd like to see them prosecute that to the end.  Charge is "defacing a monument," which might not even accurately describe what was done.
> 
> They haven't replaced it, though.


What the actual fuck.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 28, 2015)

Superior Watermelon said:


> You took the bait


I'd say less "took the bait" and more "interpreted my post with the same skill Fred Durst interpreted Chuck Palahniuk with".


----------



## Some JERK (Jun 28, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Someone just went up and took the fucking thing down.
> 
> And got arrested of course.  I'd like to see them prosecute that to the end.  Charge is "defacing a monument," which might not even accurately describe what was done.
> 
> They haven't replaced it, though.



I don't know if that article has been updated since you posted it, but...


> Newsome and Tyson, both 30, were charged with defacing a monument, a misdemeanor, *and a new flag went up within about an hour*, according to the S.C. Department of Public Safety.





> In a statement through activist group #BlackLivesMatter, Newsome explained her actions, saying, "we can't wait any longer."
> 
> "We can't continue like this another day," Newsome said. "It's time for a new chapter where we are sincere about dismantling white supremacy and building toward true racial justice and equality."


That's somewhat ridiculous, of course you can wait another day. Unless she means that since even the Governor of SC is calling for the flag to be taken down, she was running out of time to make a political statement. 

In any event, I agree that they'd be fools to try to prosecute them on the current charge, or at all. This is one of those moments where _"Hey... *don't* do that again." _is an appropriate response.


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 28, 2015)

Some JERK said:


> I don't know if that article has been updated since you posted it, but...



Pretty sure it was updated, because it said the opposite when I read it, in a line at the end.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 28, 2015)

Jaimas said:


> I happen to be of the belief that banning it is, to quote Maddox, _as dumbfuck as shit in a pant_.



I really enjoyed your page long explanation of why you agree with everybody.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 28, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> I really enjoyed your page long explanation of why you agree with everybody.


A corporate fiat ban is still a . . . .

Fuck it. Why do I even bother?


----------



## DuskEngine (Jun 28, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> Fuck it. Why do I even bother?



This seems to be the general sentiment in this thread.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 28, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> A corporate fiat ban is still a . . . .
> 
> Fuck it. Why do I even bother?



If I remember correctly it's because I hate freedom of speech


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 28, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> If I remember correctly it's because I hate freedom of speech


You do hate freedom of speech.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jun 28, 2015)

*Asterisk* said:


> You do hate freedom of speech.



Right?


----------



## KingGeedorah (Jun 28, 2015)

Freedom isn't free. It cost a hefty fucking fee.


----------



## ShavedSheep (Jun 28, 2015)

Holden said:


> Kill niggers


That's your best post yet


----------



## Shokew (Jun 28, 2015)

Holden said:


> Kill niggers



I needed a good laugh for once. Thank You.


----------



## Red_Rager (Jun 28, 2015)

Holden said:


> Kill niggers


The most intelligent post in the thread


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 28, 2015)

Who the fuck removed Holden's post? That was the funniest fucking thing in this thread


----------



## AnOminous (Jun 28, 2015)

Here.  Just raise this over those state houses.

I think everyone can be satisfied by this compromise.


----------



## Space_Dandy (Jun 29, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Here.  Just raise this over those state houses.
> 
> I think everyone can be satisfied by this compromise.
> 
> View attachment 34566



That's gay.


----------



## CatParty (Jun 29, 2015)

http://www.jta.org/2015/06/26/news-...down-on-confederate-flags-but-leave-swastikas






http://www.bb4sp.com/auction-giant-ebay-➠-swimming-in-nazi-swastikas-➠-bans-confederate-flags/


----------



## Ariel (Jun 29, 2015)

CatParty said:


> http://www.jta.org/2015/06/26/news-...down-on-confederate-flags-but-leave-swastikas
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks cool, but circumcision is awesome.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jun 29, 2015)

For the last time, @chimpchan, the baby's not mine.


----------



## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 29, 2015)

Pictures from the Confederate Flag support rally in Montgomery, Alabama today. Fellow kiwis, I'm as human as the rest of you, and while it's very hard sometimes- I always try to correct my mistakes in my political viewpoints. I'm sorry. I had _NO IDEA_ there were_ so many Black people_ that supported this!

JESUS! Look at all the black people!






Man, African-American folks _everywhere_!





You can't wave a flag without hitting a person of color!





_ALL RACES WERE THERE TO SUPPORT SOUTHERN HERITAGE_! White people, Caucasians, Whities, Crackers....





Dude, It's like a fucking Ice-T concert, so many Black folks up in this event!





Oh. Wait. I actually found one.


----------



## Bogs (Jun 29, 2015)




----------



## Pikonic (Jun 29, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> Someone just went up and took the fucking thing down.
> 
> And got arrested of course.  I'd like to see them prosecute that to the end.  Charge is "defacing a monument," which might not even accurately describe what was done.
> 
> They haven't replaced it, though.


A woman getting arrested for taking down a flag that defenders call the ultimate symbol against rebellion against a tyrannical government.
#irony


----------



## KingofManga420 (Jun 29, 2015)

The Knife's Husbando said:


> Pictures from the Confederate Flag support rally in Montgomery, Alabama today. Fellow kiwis, I'm as human as the rest of you, and while it's very hard sometimes- I always try to correct my mistakes in my political viewpoints. I'm sorry. I had _NO IDEA_ there were_ so many Black people_ that supported this!
> 
> JESUS! Look at all the black people!
> 
> ...


Are you aware the focal point of the first photo has a black guy waving a HUGE confederate flag?


----------



## Holdek (Jun 29, 2015)

Ha ha look at these dumb rednecks:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...n-cameramans-prediction-instantly-comes-true/


----------



## OV 370 (Jun 29, 2015)

I saw a confederate flag "heritage not hate" vanity plate and no less than 3 oddly placed stickers on a car near my house. This is literally less than 6 miles from where the Charleston shooting took place, and they weren't on the car a couple weeks ago. Since they like flags so much, maybe I should add a few more.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 29, 2015)

Faceist Analchest said:


> I saw a confederate flag "heritage not hate" vanity plate and no less than 3 oddly placed stickers on a car near my house. This is literally less than 6 miles from where the Charleston shooting took place, and they weren't on the car a couple weeks ago. Since they like flags so much, maybe I should add a few more.


I think it's most appropriate to say... DO IT FAGGOT


----------



## Shokew (Jun 30, 2015)

The Knife's Husbando said:


> Oh. Wait. I actually found one.



...And she was the only person in the right that day, IMHO.

And with that - GAME OVER


----------



## Pikimon (Jun 30, 2015)

The confederate flag looks kinda queer to me.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 30, 2015)

Pikimon said:


> The confederate flag looks kinda queer to me.


Especially in my avatar.



Spoiler


----------



## Ariel (Jun 30, 2015)

We should make an online petition to reclaim it as the Tranny Flag.


----------



## DuskEngine (Jun 30, 2015)

chimpchan said:


> We should make an online petition to reclaim it as the Tranny Flag.



(My) South will (never) rise again


----------



## Marvin (Jun 30, 2015)

Holdek said:


> Spoiler


Heh, damnit, based on the title, I thought that was just a cover of the Lynyrd Skynyrd song.

Thanks, Charlie Daniels. You've shown me how lynching is a proud southern tradition.



Spoiler: The only Simple Man worth listening to


----------



## Cid Highwind (Jun 30, 2015)

The Knife's Husbando said:


> Pictures from the Confederate Flag support rally in Montgomery, Alabama today. Fellow kiwis, I'm as human as the rest of you, and while it's very hard sometimes- I always try to correct my mistakes in my political viewpoints. I'm sorry. I had _NO IDEA_ there were_ so many Black people_ that supported this!
> 
> JESUS! Look at all the black people!



Since I never mind being the one to go for low hanging fruit, anyone else notice that the obvious LIBRELS, you know, the ones holding the American flag, are all somewhat fit and in shape and yet the confederate flag supportin' proud suthners are a sea of obese white trash?


----------



## Morbid Boredom (Jun 30, 2015)

KingofManga420 said:


> Are you aware the focal point of the first photo has a black guy waving a HUGE confederate flag?



That dude's tan, not black.



Captain Cid said:


> Since I never mind being the one to go for low hanging fruit, anyone else notice that the obvious LIBRELS, you know, the ones holding the American flag, are all somewhat fit and in shape and yet the confederate flag supportin' proud suthners are a sea of obese white trash?



I saw plenty of people in decent (not great) shape rallying for the Confederate flag.  I think it's far more telling how few _young_ people were present.


----------



## The Knife's Husbando (Jun 30, 2015)

Morbid Boredom said:


> I think it's far more telling how few _young_ people were present.



I didn't post all the pics, they were like 25+.  But there were kids there, and they were clueless, and it was very sad.










As I said earlier. You're not responsible for the sins of your fathers, you are responsible for the sins of your children. No one is born racist. It's a learned trait.


----------



## Holdek (Jun 30, 2015)

Marvin said:


> Heh, damnit, based on the title, I thought that was just a cover of the Lynyrd Skynyrd song.
> 
> Thanks, Charlie Daniels. You've shown me how lynching is a proud southern tradition.
> 
> ...


Yeah there's really no comparison, in content or musical quality, between the two "Simple Man" songs.  I don't even know why Daniels thought it would be a good idea to name his song that, except that he's an idiot in general.



The Knife's Husbando said:


> I didn't post all the pics, they were like 25+.  But there were kids there, and they were clueless, and it was very sad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah.  This is why when I see adults dressing in Klan robes I just roll my eyes, but when they dress kids in them I get pissed off.


----------



## Marvin (Jun 30, 2015)

Holdek said:


> Yeah.  This is why when I see adults dressing in Klan robes I just roll my eyes, but when they dress kids in them I get pissed off.


----------



## Duke Nukem (Jun 30, 2015)

On a personal level, I don't give a shit about the Confederate battle flag, it's just a piece of cloth. Sure, it represents something, but that's why flags exist. Apart from that, I don't understand what the big deal is about people revering the symbol of a failed country that's been defunct for about 150 years, but that's just me.

As far as the flag on the SC Capitol goes, it's a naval jack. What is the flag of a defunct country's armed forces doing on the civil government building of a state in the first place? Just put it in a museum or something at this point. I dunno.

And above all else, this flag debate is a distraction from things that actually will bring about real, positive change. But hey, if it feels good, I don't blame anyone.


----------



## Mrs Paul (Jul 1, 2015)

Marvin said:


> View attachment 35074




I was watching this documentary on the KKK on The History Channel, and at they filmed a Klan meeting.  The Grand High Wizard Lord or whatever the fuck his title was brought out an infant, couldn't have been more than a few weeks old, if that -- wearing a full Klan outfit.  The hood even had a mask on.  After everything in the program -- racial slurs, violence, lynchings, church burnings, etc. -- somehow, that disturbed me the most.


----------



## c-no (Jul 1, 2015)

Mrs Paul said:


> I was watching this documentary on the KKK on The History Channel, and at they filmed a Klan meeting.  The Grand High Wizard Lord or whatever the fuck his title was brought out an infant, couldn't have been more than a few weeks old, if that -- wearing a full Klan outfit.  The hood even had a mask on.  After everything in the program -- racial slurs, violence, lynchings, church burnings, etc. -- somehow, that disturbed me the most.


Considering how the child is being raised by a member of the KKK, that can be more disturbing than racial slurs since it means the kid is going to be indoctrinated with racist ideas such as white supremacy and that there is nothing wrong with lynching a non-white individual.


----------



## Holdek (Jul 1, 2015)

Mrs Paul said:


> The Grand High Wizard Lord or whatever the fuck


I've always wondered about this...the KKK have Dungeons & Dragons-types names for everything, like "Grand High Wizard Dragon," or puns with the word "K" replacing "C," like "the local Klan Koven."  I guess it goes with the "secret society" aspect of it?


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jul 2, 2015)

Holdek said:


> I've always wondered about this...the KKK have Dungeons & Dragons-types names for everything, like "Grand High Wizard Dragon," or puns with the word "K" replacing "C," like "the local Klan Koven."  I guess it goes with the "secret society" aspect of it?



Apparently a lot of it came from college fraternities and other "secret" societies like the Shriners.  Some of them are even more ridiculous than the Wizards - the original Klan's internal judicial council was called the 'Grand Council of Yahoos'.  A lot of their rituals come from a misunderstanding of history - the famous burning cross is supposed to be a recreation of an old Scottish tradition of summoning soldiers to war by burning a cross on a hill, but the Scottish cross would have been a St Andrew's cross.


----------



## Vitriol (Jul 2, 2015)

Dudeofteenage said:


> Apparently a lot of it came from college fraternities and other "secret" societies like the Shriners.  Some of them are even more ridiculous than the Wizards - the original Klan's internal judicial council was called the 'Grand Council of Yahoos'.  A lot of their rituals come from a misunderstanding of history - the famous burning cross is supposed to be a recreation of an old Scottish tradition of summoning soldiers to war by burning a cross on a hill, but the Scottish cross would have been a St Andrew's cross.


this isn't quite correct- the burning cross was used by highland clans to gather the tribe- in the day they used smoking crosses and at night fiery ones. I believe the last time they were used in war was in Canada in the war of 1812 although i vaguely remember hearing about an incident in elgin in the 1820's. From Walter Scott's accounts (writing a generation after the last major clan rising but having spoken to several survivors) it seems to have be a regular cruciform not the st Andrews X.

burnt or black crosses can still be found present in some small rural village games and gala's and this was where i first encountered them.  


The Klan's misunderstanding is using it as a religious style icon and a symbol of terror rather than as a practical way to gather men in from across the hills.


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jul 2, 2015)

I think the Klan intended their use of it to deliberately evocative of that of their ancestors - summoning their clan to battle against their enemies.


----------



## Teddy (Jul 2, 2015)

Two hate groups for the price of one 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ina-black-panthers-plan-rally-to-counter-kkk/

This is just sad.


----------



## Holdek (Jul 2, 2015)

Teddy said:


> Two hate groups for the price of one
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ina-black-panthers-plan-rally-to-counter-kkk/
> 
> This is just sad.


Both of these groups always do this whenever there is a racial controversy, and they never end up fighting each other.  It's disappointing but not surprising; they just want attention.


----------



## AnOminous (Jul 3, 2015)

Teddy said:


> Two hate groups for the price of one
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...ina-black-panthers-plan-rally-to-counter-kkk/
> 
> This is just sad.



I'll just note that the "New Black Panthers" is maybe 20 people.  It's a bullshit group and completely unassociated with the original Black Panthers, who detest them.


----------



## GS 281 (Jul 3, 2015)

AnOminous said:


> I'll just note that the "New Black Panthers" is maybe 20 people.  It's a bullshit group and completely unassociated with the original Black Panthers, who detest them.


Right Wing journalists seem to love them, though.


----------



## KingGeedorah (Jul 3, 2015)

It's about pride in your Clan


----------



## Dudeofteenage (Jul 4, 2015)

yawning sneasel said:


> Right Wing journalists seem to love them, though.



Yeah, because inventing strawmen out of whole cloth is hard work, yo.


----------



## Shokew (Jul 4, 2015)

Philosophy Zombie said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow - we really suck, don't we?? All of this over something that's not even being all that well-censored, except by corporations who need to go fuck themselves... Yeah - Congrats, indeed.


----------



## DirkBloodStormKing (Jul 18, 2015)

Raising this spergtastic thread from the dead, as I recently had a debate with a friend's mom over the use of the Confederate flag. She believes that the Confederate flag was used to FREE the slaves rather than to preserve the institution of slavery, that the history of the flag was warped in the 1960's during the Civil Rights Movement by "dem ebil libtardz", and that there are not racist conotations to the Confederate flag. She also thinks that if the Confederate flag is no longer going to be raised in public, that the American flag will be taken down and that only ISIS flags will be flying around and America will be doomed (which is a load of bullshit in of itself, especially considering the fact that all she is an extreme Conservative/Republican that only watches Fox News and is actually pretty racist as fuck (against black people, Mexicans, and Muslims) and tries to shove her views down everyone's throats). My friend's much more moderate though.


----------



## HG 400 (Jul 18, 2015)

DirkBloodStormKing said:


> Raising this spergtastic thread from the dead, as I recently had a debate with a friend's mom over the use of the Confederate flag. She believes that the Confederate flag was used to FREE the slaves rather than to preserve the institution of slavery, that the history of the flag was warped in the 1960's during the Civil Rights Movement by "dem ebil libtardz", and that there are not racist conotations to the Confederate flag. She also thinks that if the Confederate flag is no longer going to be raised in public, that the American flag will be taken down and that only ISIS flags will be flying around and America will be doomed (which is a load of bullshit in of itself, especially considering the fact that all she is an extreme Conservative/Republican that only watches Fox News and is actually pretty racist as fuck (against black people, Mexicans, and Muslims) and tries to shove her views down everyone's throats). My friend's much more moderate though.



Post what your face was literally like when she said that.


----------



## DirkBloodStormKing (Jul 18, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> Post what your face was literally like when she said that.


Not going to take that route again. I will tell you how I responded to it though
I was more rolling my eyes and trying my hardest to be polite and attempted to pull off a facade where I tried to not come off as annoyed (albeit said facade was see-through). As a history buff, seeing such historical inaccuracies is pretty much facepalmworthy.


----------



## HG 400 (Jul 18, 2015)

DirkBloodStormKing said:


> As a history buff, seeing such historical inaccuracies is pretty much facepalmworthy.



I don't see any historical inaccuracies there.


----------



## DirkBloodStormKing (Jul 18, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> I don't see any historical inaccuracies there.


Source 1
Source 2
Source 3

Take a read of these sources.


----------



## HG 400 (Jul 18, 2015)

DirkBloodStormKing said:


> Source 1
> Source 2
> Source 3
> 
> Take a read of these sources.



Those are biased liberal sources.


----------



## DirkBloodStormKing (Jul 18, 2015)

Dynastia said:


> Those are biased liberal sources.


Provide me some sources that say otherwise, and make sure they are not biased conservative sources. The flag seems like it has a subjective view of interpretation, and depending on how you interpret it, along with your views, the interpretation of the flag is pretty damn subjective.


----------



## HG 400 (Jul 18, 2015)

DirkBloodStormKing said:


> Provide me some sources that say otherwise, and make sure they are not biased conservative sources. The flag seems like it has a subjective view of interpretation, and depending on how you interpret it, along with your views, the interpretation of the flag is pretty damn subjective.



Okay.



> the Confederate flag was used to FREE the slaves rather than to preserve the institution of slavery... the history of the flag was warped in the 1960's during the Civil Rights Movement by "dem ebil libtardz"... there are not racist conotations to the Confederate flag



Source ; Dirk Blood Storm King, not a conservative.


----------



## AlephOne2Many (Jul 18, 2015)

I did an essay back in the tenth grade over the Confederates flag to make up for lost exam credits. I was called a racist because of a few quotes regarding the confederacy were used to support the relevant material.

Privileged asshole kids are our schools downfall. :/


----------



## PantsOfDesire (Jul 18, 2015)

Black Sonichu said:


> On a personal level, I don't give a shit about the Confederate battle flag, it's just a piece of cloth. Sure, it represents something, but that's why flags exist. Apart from that, I don't understand what the big deal is about people revering the symbol of a failed country that's been defunct for about 150 years, but that's just me.
> 
> As far as the flag on the SC Capitol goes, it's a naval jack. What is the flag of a defunct country's armed forces doing on the civil government building of a state in the first place? Just put it in a museum or something at this point. I dunno.
> 
> And above all else, this flag debate is a distraction from things that actually will bring about real, positive change. But hey, if it feels good, I don't blame anyone.



It's not important that the flag represents a failed state. What's relevant now is how people identify with it. I really don't care much for the flag because for me it's that funny flag the Duke boys had on the roof of their car. I don't think it should be flown on government buildings. I'm fine with people flying the flag themselves for whatever it represents to them. I have friends in the south. One comes to mind as having a confederate flag decal on his car, and for him it's just part of his identity as a southerner. He's not racist, and would readily condemn slavery and modern-day racism. I'm sure there are plenty more there and there's no good reason to turn this in to a witch-hunt on the assumption that it represents slavery. Islamic and Christian symbols carry a great deal of unpleasant baggage, of racism, sexism, conquest, and homophobia – among other things. Yet we don't condemn private displays of crosses and crescents because we know that it doesn't necessarily represent the bad shit that happened under those banners.

It needs to go from state buildings and be left where people use it personally for whatever their reasons may be, and I'm pretty sure a sizeable majority of people with these flags and images of it aren't hankering for the times when they could have a black guy chained in the shed.


----------



## HG 400 (Jul 18, 2015)

PantsOfDesire said:


> aren't hankering for the times when they could have a black guy chained in the shed.



You can still have that if you know how to craigslist.


----------



## I Am Do Big Fard Retard (Jan 17, 2016)

Superior Watermelon said:


> With everything going on people are complaining about having the Confederate flag scrubbed of the face of the Earth. I feel like people should be able to fly that flag, it has deep roots in culture to this country, especially to the south, and people's ancestors died under fighting for their beliefs. Now I'm not saying I agree with slavery, but there was more to the civil war than just that. If people want the Confederate flag gone because of the negative history associated with it, shouldn't we just remove every flag then? Each flag has it's own culture and history associated with it whether it be good or bad, so why should one flag be banned (or whatever they want) because of the history of it and the fact that some crazies hijacked it. Am I wrong for thinking this? Am I crazy?



Good, honest, innocent boys died fighting for Confederate soil. Good, honest innocent boys also died fighting for the United States of America. Both should be honored because of the pain they went through during that horrible, horrible war. I'm saying this as someone fascinated with the Civil War and with family who fought on both sides of it.

Also very important to realize the Confederate flag was a battle flag, not a standard for the Confederate States of America. I hate it when people compare it to the swastika, or place it alongside the swastika, because it's more like the Iron Cross.


----------



## *Asterisk* (Jan 17, 2016)

It's disturbing to think about, but war service is more often about geography than personal feelings. There were Unionists like McClellan who were utterly wretched figures, and Confederates like Lee who had actual morals. Admiral Stockdale in Vietnam withstood unthinkable torture at the hands of the Vietcong for the sake of protecting his men, and meanwhile his own homeland was bombing civilians by the hundreds of thousands and spraying enough chemical toxins to ensure a century of birth defects to the children of those caught in the dust. Even in World War II, there were men who fought for the Axis that were themselves honorable and heroic,* and men who fought for the Allies who were complete sociopaths who'd have enthusiastically set up their own gas chambers had they been born in a different country.* *

None of this reflects moral equivalency. It's just how the World winds up.

All most can really do in a war is to stick to a worthwhile moral compass, and whenever you're given power in any way, take the moral path when you make your decision. Grunts have no say in where or why they fight, but the how's still their own.

* Marshal Rommel.

* * General Patton.


----------



## I-chi (Jan 17, 2016)

You reserve the right to fly the flag if you so choose, if it's really that important to you, at least in this country.

But don't be surprised when anybody perceives you as an enormous tool for it for putting that much worth in a strip of cloth.

Additionally, the KKK and Black Panthers were always just a double-sided coin of edgelord.


----------



## Marvin (Jan 18, 2016)

NatLikesMonsters said:


> Also very important to realize the Confederate flag was a battle flag, not a standard for the Confederate States of America. I hate it when people compare it to the swastika, or place it alongside the swastika, because it's more like the Iron Cross.


Oh, this is very incorrect.

Symbols, like words, are defined by their usage. The swastika isn't seen as a hate symbol because of some law establishing it as the flag of Germany. It's a hate symbol because of how it was used.

The confederate flag is absolutely on par with the Nazi flag because it's used as a hate symbol.


----------



## Fat Cat Represent (Jan 25, 2016)

I say let the dumb assholes who want to fly it fly it, that's part of their freedom of speech, which I support even if they're racist tards. 

But it shouldn't be allowed on any sort of government building or flag.


----------



## Mecha-Lenin (Jan 25, 2016)

It is a symbol of oppression and slavery. Anyone who denies this is flat-out a moron. 

...

I don't care if some feces-for-brains racist wants to put in on their car. Let them, it's their right and allows me to identify them as an idiot. 

But it should not be allowed on government property. I really hope I  need not explain why.


----------



## Yellow Yam Scam (Jan 25, 2016)

Marvin said:


> Oh, this is very incorrect.
> 
> Symbols, like words, are defined by their usage. The swastika isn't seen as a hate symbol because of some law establishing it as the flag of Germany. It's a hate symbol because of how it was used.
> 
> The confederate flag is absolutely on par with the Nazi flag because it's used as a hate symbol.



The exact same argument can be used to say that the confederate flag is harmless since 99% of the time that it is worn or flown by 99% of the people that do so, it is meant without any racist (or otherwise political) connotations.


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## Mecha-Lenin (Jan 25, 2016)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> The exact same argument can be used to say that the confederate flag is harmless since 99% of the time that it is worn or flown by 99% of the people that do so, it is meant without any racist (or otherwise political) connotations.


But symbols are not just who uses them, but what they mean to others. 

I am 100% certain that 99.999% of people who do fly the confederate flag are white. 

My point, is that even though your white neighbor 'Bob' fly's a confederate flag and means no harm, if you are a black person that is bound to be hurtful or unnerving in some way. 

Now what happens when a _government building_ does that? What does that say about your government's awareness of past human-rights crimes? It does not say anything great.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Jan 25, 2016)

Mecha-Lenin said:


> It is a symbol of oppression and slavery.



It's a symbol of people standing up and fighting for what they think is right.
An ideology not too dissimilar from that which founded the USA itself.

The Union wasn't fighting for the explicit abolition of slavery but to maintain a cohesive national identity and enforce federal powers.
The conflict was indeed largely inflamed over the abolitionist movement, but was truthfully about whether or not it was reasonable for populous northern states to undermine the industry of Southern states for the sake of anti-slavery ideology which was far from popular at the time with the common folk.
There is maybe some reasonable argument to the idea that this wasn't fair political representation.

The idea of the South as a racist boogeyman, is historically fatuous.
If we're going to hold it accountable to modern standards of slavery and racial equality, why then isn't the entirety of pre-abolition human history equivalently accountable in this.
How long was the American flag itself complicit with slavery?
They weren't fighting to keep a people down, but to defend their own way of life.

Simply because some people might use it as a symbol of racial hatred, or that others may interpret it as such, doesn't mean it should be banned or suppressed for obvious reasons (freedom of speech).
Even from the political perspective of treachery or sedition, the very nature of a democratic and representative government mandates that all political perspectives be allowed free expression.
It isn't the idea or motivations of rebellion that should be punished, but the act, especially considering the rebellious origins of the state itself.
What right did the Union respectively have to deny the agency of people who felt unrepresented by their government?

It is realistically a grayer ideological conflict than more people are comfortable admitting, and still reflected in modern political discussion Big Government(Federal Power)/Small Government(State Power).

The historicity of the flag, and its political symbolism dramatically outweigh anybody's personal feelings in the matter.
That said, you know, I wouldn't fly it over any currently officially active government bodies, considering the matter was politically resolved even if it ideologically wasn't.
We can't enforce any form of law if people aren't willing to participate in a unified society.
You can and always will be allowed to fly it anywhere you want though.


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## Mecha-Lenin (Jan 25, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> It's a symbol of people standing up and fighting for what they think is right.


Which included slavery.

I don't think you give the conflict over slavery enough weight. Nobody denies that slavery was not the only motivation, you are correct that there were other motivating factors. Yet, slavery was not only a central part of the conflict, but it's abolition became the historical result of that conflict, arguably the most important one. 

The wealth and power slave-owning class of the south depended on slavery. It is undeniable that maintaining the institution of slavery was on their agenda.

The war was a significant enough of a historical turning point, in fact,  that many suspect slavery would have continued for a time if the South had won.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Jan 25, 2016)

Mecha-Lenin said:


> The wealth and power slave-owning class of the south depended on slavery. It is undeniable that maintaining the institution of slavery was on their agenda.



And yet the slave-owning class was maybe less 1% of the US population.

Did the rest of the South move at the whim at their racial hatred of black people?
They resisted the perceived unjust imposition of power over their livelihood.

And while I absolutely agree that slavery is unmoral, it is undoubtedly ignorant to weigh the value of history or the merits of political argument based upon the assumed morality of the individuals participating in it.
It may be that even you, 200 years from now might be seen as unfathomably evil for not flagellating yourself enough under the hedonism of 20th century western culture. This doesn't invalidate your political perspective.
It doesn't teach us anything to judge the people of the past by the standards we hold ourselves to, but it does teach us to understand their motivations.

The generalize the motivations of half the country as racial hatred or supremacy is utterly asinine.
The politics of slavery were merely the media in which the political conflict arose.

Let see if I can make an appropriate analogy: Slavery is to the Civil War, what Misogyny was to Gamergate.
An obfuscation of the real political discussion regardless of how many racists or misogynists there actually were.


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## Fat Cat Represent (Jan 25, 2016)

Are you seriously comparing a bunch of whiny manchildren who have nothing better to do with their lives than scream about "Ethics in Gaming Journalism" with the Civil War?


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Jan 25, 2016)

Fat Cat Represent said:


> Are you seriously comparing a bunch of whiny manchildren who have nothing better to do with their lives than scream about "Ethics in Gaming Journalism" with the Civil War?



That's what an analogy is.
You're confusing the intensity of the two scenarios with their relationship.
I never implied they were of the same scale.
Only that slavery and misogyny played similar roles in distracting discussion.


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## Mecha-Lenin (Jan 25, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> And yet the slave-owning class was maybe less 1% of the US population.


Sure, _maybe _not all of them were slaveowners or racists. That still does not change the fact that slavery (legitimized by the invented racism of years past) was a _huge factor_ in that society, and was something the rich and powerful (that 1% perhaps? though I don't know the actual numbers) were going to great lengths to protect. 

I am not judging all of that society's members or blaming them. People, most times, cannot help the society they live in on their own, even when they want to change it. That takes _years of continued struggle_ and yes it would be foolish to take a random individual from that time and place and accuse them of racism on the spot. I agree with you there.

But I am simply calling the facts. 

If we deny that slavery was a major influence... an _inertia_, in that society, that would have continued under it's name... then we deny ourselves the ability of clearly understanding how to evaluate, confront, and end the injustices we face today in our own society, while treating it's members as the humans they are.


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## Yellow Yam Scam (Jan 25, 2016)

Mecha-Lenin said:


> But symbols are not just who uses them, but what they mean to others.
> 
> I am 100% certain that 99.999% of people who do fly the confederate flag are white.
> 
> ...



To say that the viewer of the symbol's opinion matters more than the person who is actually utilizing it is kind of nihilistic nonsense. That kind of logic is basically a complicated way of saying "nothing means anything."


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## Mecha-Lenin (Jan 25, 2016)

Yellow Yam Scam said:


> To say that the viewer of the symbol's opinion matters more than the person who is actually utilizing it is kind of nihilistic nonsense. That kind of logic is basically a complicated way of something "nothing means anything."


I just meant that we can't simply look at the flyer of the flag and not the viewer. That is all.


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## Puppet Pal Clem (Jan 26, 2016)

Mecha-Lenin said:


> If we deny that slavery was a major influence... an _inertia_, in that society, that would have continued under it's name... then we deny ourselves the ability of clearly understanding how to evaluate, confront, and end the injustices we face today in our own society, while treating it's members as the humans they are.



Not sure I understand this one.
Nobody is denying that the South engaged in slavery, or even arguing that slavery wasn't wrong.

They created their own state, because they were disillusioned with their representative government, not purely for the purpose of retaining slavery.
Sure slavery was the motivating politic of the time that aggravated the political discussion to the point of war, but the result of the war wasn't specifically abolition, instead it was the enforcement of federal power which took the form of the 13th amendment.
That states were not allowed to leave the Union, and that federal law superseded state powers.

Was the average soldier in the field necessarily dying to uphold political ideology?
No, but he certainly wasn't killing other white men because he hates darkies so much either.
He was fighting to secede from the antagonistic idea of the Union which interfered with his livelihood from far away.

The idea that he was fighting simply to keep a race enslaved is naive.

Why then, must the confederate flag, only be interpreted as a symbol of racial hatred?
If it has political significance beyond the discussion of abolition, why must this be discarded for the sake of an individuals feelings?


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## Sperglord Dante (Jan 26, 2016)

There are way to demonstrate displeasure towards the federal government, like idk hanging an Ayn Rand portrait or something, that can't be easily interpreted like "niggers should go back to them cotton fields".


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## Mecha-Lenin (Jan 26, 2016)

Puppet Pal Clem said:


> The idea that he was fighting simply to keep a race enslaved is naive.


And I did not say that.

I can see what you are saying, but suffice it to say that I simply cannot see the slavery issue as taking a backseat to the other (real) issues... with regards to the meaning and symbolism of the flag. This opiion may change in the future, but I simply do not find your argument convincing. 

It is less a matter of what the individual fighter had to say about a flag, and more about what the overlying social and economic structures preferred.

For example: an individual soldier in Vietnam may not have supported the bombing of Vietnam whole-heartedly (he may have been drafted, or may have wanted military benefits or prestiege)... but that did not change the fact that America was dropping bombs. 



Puppet Pal Clem said:


> Not sure I understand this one.


An individual who is agnostic, neutral to, or even hostile to the dominant values (and economy) of a society cannot alone change it, and for many they take actions in service of it simply because of pressures (both social and economic) from the rest of society. It is extremely difficult to change the core operations of society, without a decisive (and collective) break such as revolution or civil war.


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