Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

[Ser Prize]

That is a horrible idea. I shouldn't have to point out that Bob was 54 when Chris was born.
Thinking your failures in the present aren't such a big deal because you can just make up for them later is nothing more than a real shit coping strategy.

And Trump was in his 60's or so when Barron was born, but that kid seems normal.

 

[Dreamer]

And Trump was in his 60's or so when Barron was born, but that kid seems normal.

Yeah, turns out that anecdotal evidence is worth fuckall.

100% do not do this though unless you want to raise genetically fucked children. By the time you're in your 50s your DNA has already started to break down and produce flaws that you'll pass on to your potential children. Just adopt.

If you're willing to trust jewish research (i understand, you don't have to), there were about 100.000 of them tested for parent-to-child's autism relations and results look very conclusive.
Here's an article about it:

Father's advanced age feeds autism risk | Spectrum | Autism Research News

Are older fathers more likely to have children with autism? A series of epidemiological studies is giving credence to the idea, suggesting that, with age, sperm may accumulate damage that increases risk in the next generation.

www.spectrumnews.org

For fathers (specifically) above 30yo the risk is 1.6 when compared to those below 30, for those above 40 its 6.
That's not to say its the only contributing factor for autism, but that's also not the only risk factor form parental age either.
This:

Parental age and birth defects: a sibling study - European Journal of Epidemiology

Higher parental age at childbearing has generated much attention as a potential risk factor for birth disorders; however, previous research findings are mixed. Existing studies have exploited variation in parental age across families, which is problematic because families differ not only in...

link.springer.com

links age of parents to birth defects and infant mortality. Children of 45yo are 1.25 more likely to have physical deformities, they're 2.5 more likely to die before birth.

On one hand that sounds really bad, and those various risks can mount. On the other, the risk for most of those will still be something like 1% as opposed to baseline 0.5%.
The point of no return, as in the age at which various issues start to really escalate is something like 42-45yo. Past that its best to adopt imo.

Pic related says it's the other way round. Also look at the deathfat ladies who can still find some dick. Or Momokun pulling $100k a year on Onlyfans for being fat and unwashed. Why is there BBW porn? Why is body positivity 99% female? I don't doubt some incels have unrealistic expectations, but many do talk about "looks matching". Maybe the reason men have to be competent flirts is to overcome pic related.

View attachment 2654746

This just shows that all men on average have fairly realistic expectations as opposed to women, it doesn't say much about incels specifically.
Its also just 1 characteristic for choosing a partner and imo not the preferred one for women. As you said yourself, you can still score despite girls thinking you have a 3/10 haircut, wit and general social skills are more important to them. For men too.

Incels are maladapted and socially inept, as a result they suffer from various mental disorders that successfully prevent them from getting laid. Everything else, be it sexuality, personal politics, SoCiEtY, looks, so on, is at best a secondary issue and more likely a copout.

 

[Spooky Doot Skelly]

If "incels" could garner some self-confidence and be more worldly, more willing to accept blame for their faults and make relevant changes, I think many of them would be more successful.

Depends on what you mean by “success”. I know plenty of well adjusted men with good jobs (who aren’t spergs) and they still have lots of trouble finding good women. At a certain point you have to wonder if it’s things like height/face because everything else in their life is in order. They aren’t total incels but when you see high quality men have such trouble finding girls it really makes me wonder if incels even had a chance in the first place.

 

[Never Scored]

If you're willing to trust jewish research (i understand, you don't have to), there were about 100.000 of them tested for parent-to-child's autism relations and results look very conclusive.
Here's an article about it:

Father's advanced age feeds autism risk | Spectrum | Autism Research News

Are older fathers more likely to have children with autism? A series of epidemiological studies is giving credence to the idea, suggesting that, with age, sperm may accumulate damage that increases risk in the next generation.

www.spectrumnews.org

For fathers (specifically) above 30yo the risk is 1.6 when compared to those below 30, for those above 40 its 6.
That's not to say its the only contributing factor for autism, but that's also not the only risk factor form parental age either.
This:

Parental age and birth defects: a sibling study - European Journal of Epidemiology

Higher parental age at childbearing has generated much attention as a potential risk factor for birth disorders; however, previous research findings are mixed. Existing studies have exploited variation in parental age across families, which is problematic because families differ not only in...

link.springer.com

links age of parents to birth defects and infant mortality. Children of 45yo are 1.25 more likely to have physical deformities, they're 2.5 more likely to die before birth.

On one hand that sounds really bad, and those various risks can mount. On the other, the risk for most of those will still be something like 1% as opposed to baseline 0.5%.
The point of no return, as in the age at which various issues start to really escalate is something like 42-45yo.

The first article you linked says there seems to be some effect but cites a study that effectively downplays it:

Paternal age “is still a relatively small contributor,” Croen says, “but when you see something that keeps coming up in different populations and study designs you start thinking there must be something to this.”

The link may be real, but researchers have yet to explain what causes it. Perhaps, says Croen, older parents are simply more attuned to the development of their children and therefore more likely to get a diagnosis. “It could be an artifact,” she says. “We don’t have enough data yet to really rule that out.”

The article goes on to say that the age of the mother may be a contributing factor in these studies as well:

In her study, Croen found that maternal age is just as important and says that other studies have lacked the statistical power to tease this out. “Our data show that maternal age is also in the mix,” she says.

Here's another article from the same source that cites several studies:

Even so, the absolute chance of having a child with autism is low even for the oldest parents. The researchers in the 2017 study calculated that about 1.5 percent of children born to parents in their 20s will have autism, compared with about 1.58 percent of children born to parents in their 40s.

So essentially if you father a kid when you're 50, there's a marginally higher risk of autism, but in real terms the risk increases by a fraction of a percentage point, so minute, it's a bit retarded to cite it as a reason a man should not to have a kid when he's 50, plus even that risk may be mitigated by having the kid with a woman who is much younger than you as the age of the mother is potentially a contributing factor in these studies.

The second article you linked is not incredibly useful because it looks at parental age(meaning both parents) as opposed to paternal age(meaning just the father). We have a plethora of data showing risks of birth defects increase as women get older.

You can also counter all this with all the studies out there that show children born to older, better established parents tend to have better educational and career outcomes. Here's one example. You can seek out more on Google if you care to.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone who can't have sex with a girl by his mid 20s because he's too autistic is going to have better luck in his 40s, I just think some perspective on what the risks actually are is warrented here.

Past that its best to adopt imo.

Not the same as having your own kid. If I wanted to take care of something that doesn't have my DNA, I'd get a dog.

 

[Ser Prize]

So essentially if you father a kid when you're 50, there's a marginally higher risk of autism, but in real terms the risk increases by a fraction of a percentage point, so minute, it's a bit retarded to cite it as a reason a man should not to have a kid when he's 50, plus even that risk may be mitigated by having the kid with a woman who is much younger than you as the age of the mother is potentially a contributing factor in these studies.

That's my takeaway, too. If you're gonna have kids as a man over 50 make sure the mother is young.

 

[Dreamer]

(your post)

You kinda missed the point or i wasn't clear enough. The point of my post was to illustrate that age does impact various risks related to having children, and those risks start to exponentially escalate. But, they're individually small and without considering extreme cases like parents getting to it at 50 those risks still don't end up that high.
Despite that i think its a valid point of consideration, and i personally wouldn't "risk it" past 45.
And of course age of a woman also matters, i guess i just assumed parents are of roughly equal age.

You can also counter all this with all the studies out there that show children born to older, better established parents tend to have better educational and career outcomes. Here's one example. You can seek out more on Google if you care to.

Pretty much off topic but yes, obviously children of parents with better stability and assets end up better. The second study even has a sidenote detailing that male wages usually increase with age and it has a positive impact on children(within the studied bracket probably).

I just think some perspective on what the risks actually are is warrented here.

Yeah, that's what i was saying.

Not the same as having your own kid. If I wanted to take care of something that doesn't have my DNA, I'd get a dog.

This i don't get. Assuming the kid you adopt is something like 1-2yo and isn't several shades different form you, what difference does that really make?
Genuinely curious, basic biology supports your position but i want to know how people rationalize it in their heads.

 

[Never Scored]

Genuinely curious, basic biology supports your position but i want to know how people rationalize it in their heads.

I don't rationalize it. I'm a fucking monkey. I have two children that I know are mine and watching them grow activates hormones in my body that give me positive emotions and make me feel happy and content in life. When most people talk about stuff like, "I didn't know what happiness was until I had my kids" or "There's no love greater than the love you will have for your children", this is what they are refferring too.

It's the same reason cumming in a woman feels better than cumming in your hand even though mechanically the orgasim is no different and involves the same body parts and nerve endings.

 

[WULULULULU]

Just saying but I would rather die an incel and die a gay man.

 

[Never Scored]

Just saying but I would rather die an incel and die a gay man.

So you're a gay incel?

 

[WULULULULU]

So you're a gay incel?

Oh goddamnit, wrong spelling.

Just saying but I would rather die an incel than die a gay man.

Actually, one question does ponder, how does one feel about sperm banks. Like what if your life, despite being well-adjusted is too much for you to bear and you fear you might hurt you spouse/children but you want to contribute to society in some capacity? Does using sperm banks still make you an incel?

 

[Mewtwo_Rain]

Depends on what you mean by “success”. I know plenty of well adjusted men with good jobs (who aren’t spergs) and they still have lots of trouble finding good women. At a certain point you have to wonder if it’s things like height/face because everything else in their life is in order. They aren’t total incels but when you see high quality men have such trouble finding girls it really makes me wonder if incels even had a chance in the first place.

The only thing that has to be questioned though is if those men consider "good women" to be a fantasy utopian woman that doesn't exist of if they have a more realistic goal. If they're expecting some animu-girl that's going to be perfect, with no shit testing/etc. Well they're going to be lonely for the rest of their lives. If they're expecting a woman who has faults and can be somewhat annoying but manageable there's quite a few out there, btu it also depends on those good men's actions and how they approach women. Some high quality men have such high standards just like some women that they price themselves out of the dating pool. Not saying you shouldn't expect better, but sometimes some people (well adjusted or not) expect utopian delusions instead of reality.

The thing is finding someone quality is also never going to be easy, doesn't make it any better, but meh.

 

[Spooky Doot Skelly]

The only thing that has to be questioned though is if those men consider "good women" to be a fantasy utopian woman that doesn't exist of if they have a more realistic goal. If they're expecting some animu-girl that's going to be perfect, with no shit testing/etc. Well they're going to be lonely for the rest of their lives. If they're expecting a woman who has faults and can be somewhat annoying but manageable there's quite a few out there, btu it also depends on those good men's actions and how they approach women. Some high quality men have such high standards just like some women that they price themselves out of the dating pool. Not saying you shouldn't expect better, but sometimes some people (well adjusted or not) expect utopian delusions instead of reality.

The thing is finding someone quality is also never going to be easy, doesn't make it any better, but meh.

Utopian is pretty relative to your geography and how you meet girls. On tinder expecting to get a 6/10 girl as a 6/10 guy is utopian and far-fetched. It’s a little easier in the real world but still difficult. Guys do need to learn to “settle” properly, but there should be some hard lines (no fatties, etc). I guess my point was increasingly, those hard lines that are viewed as reasonable are becoming rarer and rarer and it’s unfortunate.

My advice to people having difficulty is to go meet women in-person like at cafes or something. Online dating will not help you.

 

[Ishtar]

Pic related says it's the other way round. Also look at the deathfat ladies who can still find some dick. Or Momokun pulling $100k a year on Onlyfans for being fat and unwashed. Why is there BBW porn? Why is body positivity 99% female? I don't doubt some incels have unrealistic expectations, but many do talk about "looks matching". Maybe the reason men have to be competent flirts is to overcome pic related.

View attachment 2654746

I’m not sure if there’s a contradiction here. Women are not near as forgiving as men but men still can have unreasonable expectations of what women they have a real chance of fucking/marrying.

The average say six on the scale looking guy has no shot of ending up with the super model-maybe if he wins the lottery or he just happens to have that Hollywood charm and luck, maybe. But for the most part-as in 99.999999% of the time-he’s going to have a chance with women who are about as attractive as he is. Attractive people get attractive people and less attractive people get those of the same level. Of course money is another factor but the principle remains.

The plain looking woman-say a five or four wants the Henry Cavill or Brad Pitt guy-but a guy with such good looks is going to have much better options, meaning she has to settle for less desirable men. The less desirable men would like to fuck Kim Kardashians and Carrie Underwood’s. Not plain faced women who are a little overweight.

This dynamic results in the men ignoring and rejecting the women that might accept them, or at least could anyway. Because they have expectations for women “outta their league”.

That said, yes a lot of women probably are looking for chad and won’t accept anything less-even if chad would never give them a second glance.

So I’d say we’re both right, and that means that this toxic and poisonous situation will continue on for decades.

 

[Protistology]

The plain looking woman-say a five or four wants the Henry Cavill or Brad Pitt guy-but a guy with such good looks is going to have much better options, meaning she has to settle for less desirable men. The less desirable men would like to fuck Kim Kardashians and Carrie Underwood’s. Not plain faced women who are a little overweight.

But those men would be happy to fuck an average woman once or twice. That woman will confuse sex =/= relationships and overestimating her attrativness, assume she has a chance to marry a male model.

I've read so many dating forum posts along the lines of "I'm 22, have fucked all the hottest guys on ampus, and have never had a boyfriend. What is wrong with men? Why are they scared of commitment?"

 

[Mr Snek]

The average say six on the scale looking guy has no shot of ending up with the super model-maybe if he wins the lottery or he just happens to have that Hollywood charm and luck, maybe. But for the most part-as in 99.999999% of the time-he’s going to have a chance with women who are about as attractive as he is. Attractive people get attractive people and less attractive people get those of the same level. Of course money is another factor but the principle remains.

That's completely untrue though, a 5/10 man will inevitably end up with a 3/10 woman or less because that's just how society works. Most men are expected to settle for any woman who will give them so much as a glance. Meanwhile women are taught that men should worship the ground they walk on. Sure looks will impact their opportunities, but far more so for men than women.

 

[WULULULULU]

That's completely untrue though, a 5/10 man will inevitably end up with a 3/10 woman or less because that's just how society works. Most men are expected to settle for any woman who will give them so much as a glance. Meanwhile women are taught that men should worship the ground they walk on. Sure looks will impact their opportunities, but far more so for men than women.

Its essentially the side of two toxic relationships. Men want standards on their picks but because of the women being so fucking insufferable they have to kiss their foots every single day without thought or reason. Women want to make their men worship them like gods, but their pool of desirable men is near impossible, especially if they want it like their kpop idols or hollywood celebrities.

Sometimes, you have to wonder if there is a chance to settle on your own without the need of social acceptance, especially if said social acceptance already leans towards degenerate territory.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

That's completely untrue though, a 5/10 man will inevitably end up with a 3/10 woman or less because that's just how society works. Most men are expected to settle for any woman who will give them so much as a glance. Meanwhile women are taught that men should worship the ground they walk on. Sure looks will impact their opportunities, but far more so for men than women.

powerlevel here, worked as a photographer for models of both male and female kind.

lots of male models get harassed by women more than women models by men in my experience.

 

[Never Scored]

That's completely untrue though, a 5/10 man will inevitably end up with a 3/10 woman or less because that's just how society works. Most men are expected to settle for any woman who will give them so much as a glance. Meanwhile women are taught that men should worship the ground they walk on. Sure looks will impact their opportunities, but far more so for men than women.

Its essentially the side of two toxic relationships. Men want standards on their picks but because of the women being so fucking insufferable they have to kiss their foots every single day without thought or reason. Women want to make their men worship them like gods, but their pool of desirable men is near impossible, especially if they want it like their kpop idols or hollywood celebrities.

Sometimes, you have to wonder if there is a chance to settle on your own without the need of social acceptance, especially if said social acceptance already leans towards degenerate territory.

And this is based on what? Your parents, posts you've read on the internet or actual experience in relationships?

 

[SneedEyeMitch]

powerlevel here, worked as a photographer for models of both male and female kind.

lots of male models get harassed by women more than women models by men in my experience.

Security here, woman commit far more harassment and sexual assaults, it doesn't get reported because the men usually don't mind the attention or make a scene out of it. Also woman get far more upset when you cock block them.

 

[HeilDave]

This conversation has gone to new places, but regarding the original question...

Incel dogma says they lost the genetic lottery and their genes deserve to die out. Alternately they can some day marry a girl who is done playing the field and wants to settle down. Or as they say, a dried up old slut who has hit the wall and is no longer a candidate for sportfuckers.

Should they give up, marry a cartoon and live a relatively stress-free but meaningless existence? Or bide their time and rescue some damaged goods for a stressful but rewarding life with someone who has fallen to the same level of unattractiveness and has cultivated a similarly unattractive personality?

I say give up. Sex toy / VR / AI technology is coming along in leaps and bounds, and if you never learned to have a relationship before your thirties you're going to have a shitty relationship. If passing on your genes is so important, bullshit your way into a sperm bank or get raping in an anti-abortion state.