Valve introduces Steam Deck

[SiccDicc]

steam input lets you rig basically everything you want, pretty sure even sticks for mouse.
problem is they're sticks, which suck balls for precise inputs, same reason aim assist is a thing in every shooter. touchpads might seem like a wasted expense, but they're easy to get used to and work much better for mouse emulation than sticks, and since the steam deck is a general purpose device for games it makes sense. don't forget valve's idea is to see how viable the form factor is, a trimmed down chink clone (if it ever happens) would probably get rid of it to reduce price etc.

Touch pads are no more precise than sticks, though, I'd argue they're less. People have gamed off of sticks a lot longer than touch pad and while not as precise as mice they're something people are much more used to in using for shooters than touch pads. Besides of which this would appeal more to those who own consoles as well as PCs, they use sticks too and shouldn't really affect any change in efficiency. I've played off of consoles and PC for a good portion of my life and I switch back and forth like it's nothing. The only thing that trips me up is the when The Switch has the same bullshit letters as Xbox does and the arrangement is different. That pisses me off and Microsoft should have used an eldritch language or something different as button icons.

I can also say that touch pad has no where near the same range as a mouse does or a stick, I've tried gaming off of laptops with their touch pads and fuck if I can do anything close to either. Most people just buy a mouse to attach to their laptop for that reason.

 

[Jonah Hill poster]

Valve did a detailed look as to how games will be verified on the device for playing.

Also GameSpot actually took a closer look at what’s inside the Valve Deck – hardwire, wires and all:

 

[Mike Stoklasa]

The only thing that trips me up is the when The Switch has the same bullshit letters as Xbox does and the arrangement is different.

You have that backwards. Nintendo have never changed their layout. Sony and Microsoft adopted inferior button arrangements. Valve have also adopted hethen button placement.

 

[SiccDicc]

You have that backwards. Nintendo have never changed their layout. Sony and Microsoft adopted inferior button arrangements. Valve have also adopted hethen button placement.

That pisses me off and Microsoft should have used an eldritch language or something different as button icons.

Placement rarely bothers me, it's remembering where Letter is when Letter is in a different place because Microsoft decided to fuck with you by copying Nintendo's homework and changing it a little.

 

[Mike Stoklasa]

Placement rarely bothers me, it's remembering where Letter is when Letter is in a different place because Microsoft decided to fuck with you by copying Nintendo's homework and changing it a little.

It's okay though because they acquired Donkey Kong when they bought Rare.

 

[ZMOT]

Touch pads are no more precise than sticks, though, I'd argue they're less. People have gamed off of sticks a lot longer than touch pad and while not as precise as mice they're something people are much more used to in using for shooters than touch pads. Besides of which this would appeal more to those who own consoles as well as PCs, they use sticks too and shouldn't really affect any change in efficiency. I've played off of consoles and PC for a good portion of my life and I switch back and forth like it's nothing. The only thing that trips me up is the when The Switch has the same bullshit letters as Xbox does and the arrangement is different. That pisses me off and Microsoft should have used an eldritch language or something different as button icons.

I can also say that touch pad has no where near the same range as a mouse does or a stick, I've tried gaming off of laptops with their touch pads and fuck if I can do anything close to either. Most people just buy a mouse to attach to their laptop for that reason.

they are. just disable aim assist on the next shooter you play and see how it works out. or bind any mouse input to a stick and try to play an rts this way. age and amount of use doesn't mean much because it's mechanically inferior, it's just what it is (and that's not a mustard opinion, I even use a pad on pc).

as for range, don't forget you can swipe on a touchpad, on a stick this would mean either holding till it finally gets across the screen, or has acceleration built in which will screw with accuracy even more (there's a reason people even disable it even for mouse input). of course a touchpad is no replacement for a mouse for aiming, but for interface stuff it's usually adequate enough. it's also mechanically easy to implement on smaller formfactors like notebooks etc.

or look at it this way: valve wants all options covered so it works for almost everyone. you can remove the touchpad etc (and if someone makes a clone they'll probably will to reduce the price), but that means you can only really play games which work for a stick, are adapted for it (like the console version of cities skylines for example, which the steam version doesn't have because it was only done for the port) or work with steam input well enough.

 

[SiccDicc]

they are. just disable aim assist on the next shooter you play and see how it works out. or bind any mouse input to a stick and try to play an rts this way. age and amount of use doesn't mean much because it's mechanically inferior, it's just what it is (and that's not a mustard opinion, I even use a pad on pc).

as for range, don't forget you can swipe on a touchpad, on a stick this would mean either holding till it finally gets across the screen, or has acceleration built in which will screw with accuracy even more (there's a reason people even disable it even for mouse input). of course a touchpad is no replacement for a mouse for aiming, but for interface stuff it's usually adequate enough. it's also mechanically easy to implement on smaller formfactors like notebooks etc.

or look at it this way: valve wants all options covered so it works for almost everyone. you can remove the touchpad etc (and if someone makes a clone they'll probably will to reduce the price), but that means you can only really play games which work for a stick, are adapted for it (like the console version of cities skylines for example, which the steam version doesn't have because it was only done for the port) or work with steam input well enough.

I've tried gaming with a touch pad before - I don't really play games with aim assist on, I hate it and a few games won't let you disable it because it's a " necessary gameplay mechanic" - and the flick isn't anywhere near as precise as with a mouse. The distance covered is better with a mouse too rather than a touchpad and I've always had better skill with stick than touch pad, I've also operated the cursor better with a stick on things like the PS3 Browser and PS4 Browser. For touch pad it requires significantly greater acceleration than the stick ever did to get the same range in such a tiny box. I didn't think of RTS games, though, since I don't play them as I can't quite think well enough on a macro level. I suppose a touch pad would be better than a stick, but I'm not sure by how much judging from how many swipes it takes to cover a screen on a laptop.

I guess I just can't see it. Like I said before I'd have to hold one in my hands to properly judge, but with the touch pads I've used on laptops - and the Steam Controller which is probably the same tech on Deck - being roughly the same size as the ones on the Steam Deck... I'm having a tough time seeing what you're saying. I really think they could have offered a separate cheaper model without them. Like, I'm not saying they have to get rid of them for all models since people apparently want them, but wasn't the touchpads what pretty much killed their controllers? It's the only thing I can think of that would be markedly different.

 

[Gimmick Account]

Shoulda gone with a trackball, Gabe

 

[Dr. Geronimo]

Placement rarely bothers me, it's remembering where Letter is when Letter is in a different place because Microsoft decided to fuck with you by copying Nintendo's homework and changing it a little.

They didn't copy Nintendo they copied Sega. The letter placement is the exact same on the dreamcast.

 

[SiccDicc]

They didn't copy Nintendo they copied Sega. The letter placement is the exact same on the dreamcast.

SEGA wasn't allowed in my household.

Shame on them then for copying Nintendo so that Microsoft can copy them.

 

[Dr. Geronimo]

SEGA wasn't allowed in my household.

Shame on them then for copying Nintendo so that Microsoft can copy them.

When you think about it though Nintendo always fucked up because they had the letters backwards when read from left to right. B is before A, Y before X. Sega and then Microsoft had them read right.

 

[SiccDicc]

When you think about it though Nintendo always fucked up because they had the letters backwards when read from left to right. B is before A, Y before X. Sega and then Microsoft had them read right.

Nintendo is a Japanese company, so it would read right to left.

SEGA was always a westaboo.

 

[Gimmick Account]

When you think about it though Nintendo always fucked up because they had the letters backwards when read from left to right.

There's probably some actual reason for that but do you remember what controllers were like before the NES? The Famicom still even has the cable coming out of the left side like they thought people might hold it vertically in front of them with their hands sideways, which sounds really dumb but wouldn't even be slightly weird for that era. Maybe they were just hedging their bets by making it objectively nonsensical from any direction.

Nintendo is a Japanese company, so it would read right to left.

what

 

[SiccDicc]

what

You read right to left in Japan, duh.

 

[Gimmick Account]

You don't know anything about me

 

[ZMOT]

I've tried gaming with a touch pad before - I don't really play games with aim assist on, I hate it and a few games won't let you disable it because it's a " necessary gameplay mechanic" - and the flick isn't anywhere near as precise as with a mouse. The distance covered is better with a mouse too rather than a touchpad and I've always had better skill with stick than touch pad, I've also operated the cursor better with a stick on things like the PS3 Browser and PS4 Browser. For touch pad it requires significantly greater acceleration than the stick ever did to get the same range in such a tiny box. I didn't think of RTS games, though, since I don't play them as I can't quite think well enough on a macro level. I suppose a touch pad would be better than a stick, but I'm not sure by how much judging from how many swipes it takes to cover a screen on a laptop.

it's mouse > pad > stick, of course it depends on the use case and which game you play, but a touchpad is simply more accurate than a stick, just think how much easier it is to stop a cursor with a pad compared to a stick and how intuitive it is, and most games involve aiming or targeting something, the more accurate the better. crossing the whole screen is a somewhat different issue, but once you reach your target or whatever the same issue still applies.

you can "get good" with a stick - just like any input method needs some getting used to - but will most likely lose to anyone with the same amount of training using a mouse (or pad), depending on the game.

I guess I just can't see it. Like I said before I'd have to hold one in my hands to properly judge, but with the touch pads I've used on laptops - and the Steam Controller which is probably the same tech on Deck - being roughly the same size as the ones on the Steam Deck... I'm having a tough time seeing what you're saying. I really think they could have offered a separate cheaper model without them. Like, I'm not saying they have to get rid of them for all models since people apparently want them, but wasn't the touchpads what pretty much killed their controllers? It's the only thing I can think of that would be markedly different.

another thing is if you remove it the option it is gone, people are even less likely to hook up a mouse (although you probably can). if you want to offer that feature it has to be out of the box for support and adoption etc. valve could probably use a trackball, but that's more complicated thus more expensive etc.

as for the controller, explained it back in the thread, but it was trying to "fix" a specific issue (bridging mouse input with gamepad), not trying to replace gamepads or mouse altogether, so it's appeal and use case was already limited. there were probably people trying to play a fps with it (and you can quite well according to a mate of mine), but that's like buying a hotas to play doom, you can but it won't be much fun for most people. over time the issue was alleviated somewhat in software (like default controller support), which meant having dedicated hardware for it was even more redundant.
losing the lawsuit about the backpedals probably didn't help either.

 

[SiccDicc]

it's mouse > pad > stick, of course it depends on the use case and which game you play, but a touchpad is simply more accurate than a stick, just think how much easier it is to stop a cursor with a pad compared to a stick and how intuitive it is, and most games involve aiming or targeting something, the more accurate the better. crossing the whole screen is a somewhat different issue, but once you reach your target or whatever the same issue still applies.

you can "get good" with a stick - just like any input method needs some getting used to - but will most likely lose to anyone with the same amount of training using a mouse (or pad), depending on the game.


another thing is if you remove it the option it is gone, people are even less likely to hook up a mouse (although you probably can). if you want to offer that feature it has to be out of the box for support and adoption etc. valve could probably use a trackball, but that's more complicated thus more expensive etc.

as for the controller, explained it back in the thread, but it was trying to "fix" a specific issue (bridging mouse input with gamepad), not trying to replace gamepads or mouse altogether, so it's appeal and use case was already limited. there were probably people trying to play a fps with it (and you can quite well according to a mate of mine), but that's like buying a hotas to play doom, you can but it won't be much fun for most people. over time the issue was alleviated somewhat in software (like default controller support), which meant having dedicated hardware for it was even more redundant.
losing the lawsuit about the backpedals probably didn't help either.

But Deck has backpedals, did they pay the fee? I also don't see how it's limited since it's the same tech in laptops that every game is able to use. All games are capable of using it by default I would think, no developer action needed.

Anyways, I've explained every time that the touch pad is worthless to me. This is subjective. I have no interest in it and I don't like it. Despite what little friction I have on my fingers from a bike accident, they still manage to get caught in movement and that doesn't happen with sticks. The camera doesn't just abruptly stop when I use sticks. I also don't have to worry about the touch pad keeping track of me returning my thumb to position and having me turn the opposite direction I want the camera to go. I don't want a trackball either. I just want a cheaper model without a touchpad -- and possibly better button placement because that shit looks awkward. I also said people hook up a mouse to the laptop because the touchpad is garbage for gaming, never meant Deck because that would be weird for a handheld... unless it's getting a dock or something.

As I said: I don't see it. You do and that's fine, but myself? I don't. I'll need to screw around with one before any final judgment on my part. I'm only basing this entirely off of the Steam Controller that never felt right to me.

 

[ZMOT]

But Deck has backpedals, did they pay the fee? I also don't see how it's limited since it's the same tech in laptops that every game is able to use. All games are capable of using it by default I would think, no developer action needed.

honestly now idea. probably paid for it, or figured out a way to skirt the patent as kind of "fuck you".
dunno what you mean with limited, but what I meant is comparable to consoles: you can hook up a mouse and keyboard but it won't do anything ootb.

Anyways, I've explained every time that the touch pad is worthless to me. This is subjective. I have no interest in it and I don't like it. Despite what little friction I have on my fingers from a bike accident, they still manage to get caught in movement and that doesn't happen with sticks. The camera doesn't just abruptly stop when I use sticks. I also don't have to worry about the touch pad keeping track of me returning my thumb to position and having me turn the opposite direction I want the camera to go. I don't want a trackball either. I just want a cheaper model without a touchpad -- and possibly better button placement because that shit looks awkward. I also said people hook up a mouse to the laptop because the touchpad is garbage for gaming, never meant Deck because that would be weird for a handheld... unless it's getting a dock or something.

As I said: I don't see it. You do and that's fine, but myself? I don't. I'll need to screw around with one before any final judgment on my part. I'm only basing this entirely off of the Steam Controller that never felt right to me.

wasn't trying to convince you, just trying to point out there's probably a reason why valve put touchpads in there and why. I probably wouldn't have much use for it either, but that how it works, a hardware revision or clone might rationalize it away if they have more substantial data hardly anyone one uses it (and willing to pay for it extra etc.).

 

[SiccDicc]

honestly now idea. probably paid for it, or figured out a way to skirt the patent as kind of "fuck you".
dunno what you mean with limited, but what I meant is comparable to consoles: you can hook up a mouse and keyboard but it won't do anything ootb.


wasn't trying to convince you, just trying to point out there's probably a reason why valve put touchpads in there and why. I probably wouldn't have much use for it either, but that how it works, a hardware revision or clone might rationalize it away if they have more substantial data hardly anyone one uses it (and willing to pay for it extra etc.).

For limited I thought you were referring to developers using it or developing around it. I haven't known anyone hook up a mouse to a console since FFXI was on Playstation 2, I suppose there are such weirdos out there. I dunno, seems a bad business decision to make something more expensive with something so little have a use for. I genuinely have no idea how long this one will last given their track record.

And my bad, I thought you were trying to convince me. I suppose I still don't see it from a business perspective; I feel like the touch pads are just a gimmick to draw away from competitors, but you'd think a Steam library would be enough. Their Steamlink didn't really survive with that, though, but a handheld Steam library should fare better. I don't know how Valve's engineers work, but I don't find them to be practical. Costs build up and I have to wonder what they scaled back in order to accommodate the touch pads or what they cut costs on. I remember their controller feeling pretty fragile, but that's off of memory.

 

[ZMOT]

For limited I thought you were referring to developers using it or developing around it. I haven't known anyone hook up a mouse to a console since FFXI was on Playstation 2, I suppose there are such weirdos out there. I dunno, seems a bad business decision to make something more expensive with something so little have a use for. I genuinely have no idea how long this one will last given their track record.

what I mean is they put it in so devs don't have to support it, it's more expensive now but the effect is it supports more games, which is better to get out of the chicken/egg problem off "not enough players worth developing for/not worth buying since there are no games". with the touchpads you could probably take most games from the last 30 years and it will work easy enough without people having to fiddle with sticks or steam input profiles which would turn them off (especially for games which will never get updated to properly work with sticks). gaben himself said the first thing he did was play dota2 on it, imagine that with a stick.

if there's enough adoption to make it worth doing clones or a successor it's inevitable they make changes, like scrap features to be cheaper and sell via price etc., that's just the natural evolution. but you need to start somewhere, gotta give some to get some. if they only go with the bare minimum to save costs right from the start it would also affect the chances of possible success (highly doubt they make any money from it anyway, but it's not like valve uses their stacks of cash for anything else).

And my bad, I thought you were trying to convince me. I suppose I still don't see it from a business perspective; I feel like the touch pads are just a gimmick to draw away from competitors, but you'd think a Steam library would be enough. Their Steamlink didn't really survive with that, though, but a handheld Steam library should fare better. I don't know how Valve's engineers work, but I don't find them to be practical. Costs build up and I have to wonder what they scaled back in order to accommodate the touch pads or what they cut costs on. I remember their controller feeling pretty fragile, but that's off of memory.

nah, in the end you gotta play it the way you like, nothing some dude on the internet says would change that and there's no point arguing about "better" or "worse" when it comes to personal preference (dualshock > xbox layout btw).

steam link is still exists, but like the controller is a software solution now, no point of selling dedicated hardware when people can just use their phone for it (or put it on a raspberry pi if they still want sth like the link).