World of Warcraft

Cataclysm revamped the entire landscape of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms, changing most if not all of the quests there too and giving no ability to run the old-school environment and quests outside of Classic.
I actually ran into this, I remember coming back after MoP was out and enjoying the streamlined quests but felt nostalgic and wanted to take on one that took me around the world as I avoided anything I remembered did such. I didn't want something too extreme so I chose the Stalvin quest in Duskwood and it went nowhere. I really missed the occasional quest you could opt to go on a long journey from the old world, though I did like the option to not do them as well. They really should have found a way to offer both.

It introduced LFR,
To be fair Wotlk introduced LFD which is part of why I left then and didn't play Cata. I really don't like the locking of talent trees to a certain number of points, as mix and match is part of the fun.
 
It also began the start of, as far as I know, the dumbing down of the game as stats for basic attack and defense (attack/spell power, armor penetration; block value and defense), as well as weapon skills in general, being neutered severely or axed entirely.
This was already fait accompli due to WotLK. Numbers were so big in wrath that your weapon skill became a smaller and smaller factor in damage calculations. Spell power unification also happened in Wrath with the healing and caster dps stat on pieces being identical if they could be worn by both healers and casters.

There wasn't some nefarious dumbing down of the game happening in Cataclysm - the logical progression of the game's systems meant that shit like resistances, armor penetration, blocking, skill ratings etc were all just being overshadowed by raw numbers and the sheer amount of things most classes could do.

Wrath fundamentally made WoW the vertical progression game it is nowadays and it was the most successful expansion of all time. That's what classicfags never seem to understand. The actual content is why modern WoW is unpopular and unfun, not its underlying game mechanics.

EDIT: In case someone doesn't believe me about Wrath being the casual xpac, here's a write-up of WoW stat evolution starting from vanilla.
 
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Cataclysm revamped the entire landscape of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms, changing most if not all of the quests there too and giving no ability to run the old-school environment and quests outside of Classic. It introduced LFR, which if you were a raider (not that I was ever a major one) was the death knell for how raiding was to be in the future as now every chromosome-hoarding player could run instances at less difficulty than 10 man normal. It also began the start of, as far as I know, the dumbing down of the game as stats for basic attack and defense (attack/spell power, armor penetration; block value and defense), as well as weapon skills in general, being neutered severely or axed entirely.

It was the last expansion to have actual talent trees, but they were changed heavily in Cataclysm with the total talent points being reduced from 71 to 41 and specific specializations for said talent trees, limiting any cross-tree combinations (which tended to be shit most of the time :story:) until 31/41 points were spent in a single tree. Archaeology, introduced in this expansion also, was a complete slog. Couple that with the ability to get actually-useful items from archaeology, and you can see the issue.

Though, looking back on it, I may be a bit too harsh due to the nostalgia of WotLK and the massive shift from that to Cataclysm.
Its been over 11 years and everything you said is pretty spot on from what I remember. LFR really killed the accomplishment of raiding, why bother forming groups/relationships and raiding normally when you could smash your face again the keyboard and get almost the same gear just a little weaker? Flying mounts in Kalimdor and eastern kingdoms really killed the enjoyment of gong back to old areas as silly as it sounds.
The culling of stats really made it obvious that they were dumbing down the game, I was a marksman hunter with 100% armor pen and I'm still a little angry that they removed armor pen and used the excuse of "its to complicated for players" as the reasoning, and then they added a new stat called mastery that gave you 3 different stats depending on your spec, and that wasn't to complicated apparently.
The condensing of the skill trees reduced player options for specialization which is always bad and it took away some of the joy of leveling because now you only got a skill point every 3-4 levels instead of every level. Archaeology as a concept was interesting as it made you move around to world and explore for artifact fragments, but the execution was bad, even as a dwarf who got a big boost to the number of fragments collected I still never got any of the fun items like the soul flayer sword even after hours of farming.
I gave up on wow early into Cataclysm because of the reasons above, eventually I came back to kill deathwing with my friends and it felt even worst. When I came back at the end to kill deathwing I noticed that a lot of my old raiding buddys' last log in was several months prior so I think its safe to assume they felt the same way about that expac.
 
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The problem with LFR is that it's simply too easy. A game like WoW where the story and itemization is advanced via raid tiers absolutely needed to make it possible to auto-matchmake raiding, but LFR was so braindead that it actually cheapened the experience of the higher tiers.

As we know nowadays, even non-meta groups of randos can handily clear Normal difficulty most of the time (especially Normal in Wrath and earlier). Normal should have been the difficulty the LFR system started out on with Heroic and up being what required a guild and premade group. It should not have been some absurd braindead baby difficulty where half the raid can just AFK and collect loot at the end.
 
That's what classicfags never seem to understand. The actual content is why modern WoW is unpopular and unfun, not its underlying game mechanics.
Even if the content was well-designed, World of Warcraft has been online for over 17 years now. Even if it was a perfect game on release (it wasn't), it would be stale by now. And it's had more expansions than the average American has had visits to the dentist. And every one of those expansions carried with it tweaks and systems meant to address complaints about the previous expansion.

Really, the game is just old. It was propped up by its massive popularity, but if Blizzard weren't trying to squeeze it dry it should have ended and been replaced by WoW2 years ago. They stretched the soup too hard with too many expansions, and it shows. IMO, they should have gone with this:
  1. Vanilla: establish the world, give people a toybox to play in.
  2. The Burning Crusade: wrap up the plot lines from Beyond the Dark Portal.
  3. Wrath of the Lich King: wrap up the plot lines from Warcraft 3.
  4. Cataclysm: don't completely rework the world, but still introduce the Elemental Lords. Make sure the players know they're working for the Old Gods.
  5. Mists of Pandaria: focus on the Old Gods and have Garrosh's death(not capture) mend the Alliance-Horde divide. The Old Gods are too big a threat for the world to stand divided.
    1. Bonus: Samwise Didier finally gets what he's been lobbing for for 10 years.
  6. [Old God-focused expansion]: the players go defeat the old gods one by one.
    1. Bonus: one of the patches sends people to the Emerald Dream to fix Old God-related shenanigans there.
  7. [Titan-focused expansion]: the players defeat the Eredar and Sargeras and the universe is saved. End the game with a big event, release next game.

The problem with LFR is that it's simply too easy. A game like WoW where the story and itemization is advanced via raid tiers absolutely needed to make it possible to auto-matchmake raiding, but LFR was so braindead that it actually cheapened the experience of the higher tiers.

As we know nowadays, even non-meta groups of randos can handily clear Normal difficulty most of the time (especially Normal in Wrath and earlier). Normal should have been the difficulty the LFR system started out on with Heroic and up being what required a guild and premade group. It should not have been some absurd braindead baby difficulty where half the raid can just AFK and collect loot at the end.
Ironically, a lot of raids in Vanilla were designed around a good portion of the raiders being dead/AFK/carried. It was only after raiding became the only PvE endgame that raids started being tuned a lot more tightly. Some TBC heroics, even at the end of the expansion with people being better geared, were more difficult than some of the raids themselves.
 
Not all LFR was easy though. Argus sucked on LFR cause no one understood what to do and you'd end up having to sit and wait for them to get 8 stacks to beat it. Though it was amusing the ragequits during phase change that thought you really had died and lost the battle. I never tried LFR for Sanctum so not sure how it was there. Can only imagine though how much of raid fell off phase 2 of Sylvanas.
 
Not all LFR was easy though. Argus sucked on LFR cause no one understood what to do and you'd end up having to sit and wait for them to get 8 stacks to beat it. Though it was amusing the ragequits during phase change that thought you really had died and lost the battle. I never tried LFR for Sanctum so not sure how it was there. Can only imagine though how much of raid fell off phase 2 of Sylvanas.

LFR Durumu, pre-nerf Nazgrim and Garrosh, Archimonde, and N'Zoth were also very difficulty fights for the LFR crowd. It's not uncommon to see 10x Determination stacks on Archimonde, and people were even wiping to him during the Legion pre-patch.
 
The culling of stats really made it obvious that they were dumbing down the game, I was a marksman hunter with 100% armor pen and I'm still a little angry that they removed armor pen and used the excuse of "its to complicated for players" as the reasoning, and then they added a new stat called mastery that gave you 3 different stats depending on your spec, and that wasn't to complicated apparently.

It wasn't complicated to players, armor pen was a reverse hit/expertise stat that applied to certain specs like hunters, warriors and paladins, it was crap for unholy dk but good for blood dps (lol, I do miss the old dk trees). Most masteries for damage specs were "Increase X by Y". Stats especially in this day are still a pain in the ass when you need a third party tool to calculate if a thing is an upgrade depending on the gear you have now.

Not all LFR was easy though. Argus sucked on LFR cause no one understood what to do and you'd end up having to sit and wait for them to get 8 stacks to beat it.

It was worse in MoP.
 
I actually ran into this, I remember coming back after MoP was out and enjoying the streamlined quests but felt nostalgic and wanted to take on one that took me around the world as I avoided anything I remembered did such. I didn't want something too extreme so I chose the Stalvin quest in Duskwood and it went nowhere. I really missed the occasional quest you could opt to go on a long journey from the old world, though I did like the option to not do them as well. They really should have found a way to offer both.
I will never forgive them for fucking with the Legend of Stavlan questline in Cata.
 
Million years ago, but if I remember one of the specific thing they didn't like about Armor Pen was that it's value rapidly increased the more of it you got until cap when it lose all value for each additional point. At some points the value was greater then being hit capped even. At the time using sims was common among world first raiders but weird and autistic among everyone else and pretty much would remain so until MoP when juggling your reforges and gems/enchants and hit cap became a full time job that you'd gladly make Ask Mr. Robot do for you instead.
 
I will never forgive them for fucking with the Legend of Stavlan questline in Cata.
As a whole their habit of taking things out of the game without giving players a way to go back and experience it is stupid. They've gutted most of the old world dungeons, and until Classic launched there was no way to go back and do old school UBRS/LBRS, Scholo, SM, ZF, Naxx, etc if you just wanted that nostalgia hit. That is unless you went onto private servers that is, but we know clearly they have the ability to leave old and new zones in the game simultaneously.

Though really all their new zones feel like cluttered shit because they try to optimize them for meaningless crap, where in the past a ton of the fun was running around these unfinished zones and wondering what the hell that place was. I remember getting into places like the Cavern of Times before it was open and just being blow away as it looked so alien. Then Kara was just a mystery and you could get into the crypts, as well as Hyjal but I never made it into that last one. Though even something like running into Silithus by accident before it was at all finished and the mobs didn't even have loot tables was pretty awesome.

Sometimes giving your game empty space and for people to look at random stuff that doesn't have a meaning does way more than cramming random crap into every inch of real estate in hopes that people don't notice the world has just become empty.

Edit: That's also one other thing that annoyed me about Cata, it tried to not only change all the zones but also tried to clear up all the mystery zones for good. The worst part was if they didn't have a zone to put into the mystery blanks, they just deleted it like they did with zone on the sides of BRM. Just kind of lame to take these zones with so much speculation and delete them because the world map can't have any mystery anymore.
 
Okay so I haven’t played since WotLK. If I wanted to play again would I need to find a guild and grind forever?
 
Wrath fundamentally made WoW the vertical progression game it is nowadays and it was the most successful expansion of all time. That's what classicfags never seem to understand. The actual content is why modern WoW is unpopular and unfun, not its underlying game mechanics.

EDIT: In case someone doesn't believe me about Wrath being the casual xpac, here's a write-up of WoW stat evolution starting from vanilla.
it was the endgame to blizzard's MCU, of course it would pull those numbers, and it already had most of the numbers when WOTLK came out (it hit 11 million in BC), so plenty of people liked how the game worked before. fun is also a buzzword relative, the individual parts of classic weren't exactly "fun" on it's own either yet it made the game the monolith people know it for.

Its been over 11 years and everything you said is pretty spot on from what I remember. LFR really killed the accomplishment of raiding, why bother forming groups/relationships and raiding normally when you could smash your face again the keyboard and get almost the same gear just a little weaker?
that's not really a problem tho, gear should be the means to an end, not the goal. it's also easy to blame LFR, but why didn't most people progress through the tiers if they wanted a challenge (and better gear)? truth is the actual raiding population was always very very small, but over time the whole game laser focused on that and dropped almost everything else because having people chase numbers is piss easy to design and then trying to force people to do the only content available or quit can easily be blamed on the player.

Even if the content was well-designed, World of Warcraft has been online for over 17 years now. Even if it was a perfect game on release (it wasn't), it would be stale by now. And it's had more expansions than the average American has had visits to the dentist. And every one of those expansions carried with it tweaks and systems meant to address complaints about the previous expansion.

Really, the game is just old. It was propped up by its massive popularity, but if Blizzard weren't trying to squeeze it dry it should have ended and been replaced by WoW2 years ago. They stretched the soup too hard with too many expansions, and it shows. IMO
because WoW is a linear progression MMO, and those age like milk. FF14 is running into the same issue where it burns people out and makes them quit long before they ever reach endgame because they're forced to play through the whole of the MSQ (or buy a boost). it was also the main reason plenty of WoW clones imploded when they didn't pull WoW numbers right out of the gate and there was no more budget to constantly push out new content you need to keep people engaged.

you can do a linear progression for a few years, then you either have to revamp the whole progression so it works long term or figure out a way to make constant grind palatable for both casual and hardcore players. I don't want to cocksuck ESO again which already fixed almost all of the complaints on this page alone (especially gearing, progression and raiding), so I'm gonna pull up GW1 as an example: you can still play it and the content is as "fresh" and challenging for a new player as it was 17 years ago, you're not required to buy everything, all it does is give you more options and stuff to do. or take runescape which is even older and has an even wider horizontal progression. fuck even that crapheap GW2 still trucks along for that reason.

the point to do a WoW 2 and change things properly was after WOTLK, anything after was trying to fix a game they constantly stacked new shit on top, no one could pull that off, least of all blizzard which was never really creative and smart to begin with.
 
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Sometimes giving your game empty space and for people to look at random stuff that doesn't have a meaning does way more than cramming random crap into every inch of real estate in hopes that people don't notice the world has just become empty.
I will always be a proponent of having a healthy amount of open spaces of "nothing" to explore. I think back to the original Asheron's Call from '99. You could pick a direction in that game and run into lots of little POIs. A little hut in the middle of the woods could have a merchant, maybe it's completely abandoned with a journal on the ground, or a zombie is in there. It really makes a world feel more lived in and encourages people to explroe, for sure.
 
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Okay so I haven’t played since WotLK. If I wanted to play again would I need to find a guild and grind forever?
No, all you really need to do these days is press a couple buttons and afk, the LFR, mission table, and whatever will take care of the rest.


I will always be a proponent of having a healthy amount of open spaces of "nothing" to explore. I think back to the original Asheron's Call from '99. You could pick a direction in that game and run into lots of little POIs. A little hut in the middle of the woods could have a merchant, maybe it's completely abandoned with a journal on the ground, or a zombie is in there. It really makes a world feel more lived in and encourages people to explroe, for sure.
This is something that's incredibly lost in modern gaming I think, the idea that you can make an awesome world and not put people on rails. I remember loving Morrowind and I had no idea what I was doing, I didn't even know there was a main quest but I just loved running around and stumbling into different cities and the like. I remember at one point you're just walking through the forest and some dude falls out of the sky and dies, you can loot him to learn he had some experimental magic that shot him into the air and you get some scrolls of that, but it's not some major quest, it's just a thing you find on him.

Then Oblivion and Skyrim came out and I didn't really like either, both felt like they forced you onto the main quest with dragons or gates constantly reminding you of it and making it a pain in the ass to play most of the time. You really don't need constant random pokemon tall grass style encounters to keep the game interesting. The most fun I had in Skyrim was just stumbling into Black Reach when doing some other quest and being amazed by how big that place is and how much I could just explore in it. It was just this massive place that wasn't just a hallway for the quest objective you needed.
 
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But what’s the point of paying for a game you are afk from?
That's why their subscription numbers are crashing and burning and Classic was their biggest boon in a long time despite being a game from over a decade ago that isn't as great as it once was but is still better than their current design.

I played a little Shadowlands, and this was before the first raid launched as expansions now come out without the first raid up, and I'd legit log in, do my mission table (2010's mobile game), then do the daily quests which were awful, and then maybe run a dungeon before logging off. I just looked at it and wondered why I was bothering to do it, and unsubscribed. Even BFA was more fun, but that might just be because I joined late so there was more stuff to do as the forced weekly gating was gone. Oh yea, that's another thing, they gate content arbitrarily on week long lock outs, so week 1 you do something fun, week 2 you talk to an npc and that's your weekly content, and week 3 you do a quest, then week 4 is something fun. After week 4 you have to wait months for the next weekly lockout rotation to come out for the story. If you played in TBC, remember the attunements that gated you from content but at least there was stuff you could do to make them faster? Well these attunements are just wait a week, woo.

But hey, at least you can play Flappy Birds in wow, and I'm not joking, there's a Flappy Birds quest in the world quest rotation.
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Bellular is a bit of a wet noodle most of the time being too infirm in his opinions, but I did find something interesting in this video, he mentions being in contact with ex Blizz employees and mentions all of the criticism is brushed off as "right wing hate mobs" which is contributing to the game being turned into a pile of shitty mobile game knock offs. It seems logical as Blizz has become rather heavily invested in the diversity hires and were removing things like flavor text that called Jaina crazy because calling women crazy is like calling niggers niggers.
 
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Okay so I haven’t played since WotLK. If I wanted to play again would I need to find a guild and grind forever?
I returned end of last expac and I’ve struggled on a high pop server to find a guild to do what I want (casual raiding & m+) due to lack of recent experience and ending up with “interesting” people. In fairness though you can do the keystone master & heroic raid without a guild. Bit of a hassle for the raid but doable. Keys sometimes have at least one retard but I tank so I expect all dps to be dumb.

Just play a class you can get a lazy macro for, bind it to your mousewheel and scroll your way to victory (hello guardian druid and vengeance demon hunter).

There is always a grind. Always.

I actually unsubscribed due to boredom and the stupidity of gutting “offensive” content. Undecided on 9.2.
 
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