Is the West better? - Regarding freedom/human rights/oligarchs

Where would you rather live?

  • Ameurope

    Votes: 56 80.0%
  • Chinussia

    Votes: 14 20.0%

  • Total voters
    70
So you are agreeing that western culture is currently "totalitarian" in its enforcement of certain norms regarding race, sex, etc.?
Nah. The conversation has fizzled. You've come out and said you'd prefer a heavy-handed government, that you'd prefer living in poverty, and that you want the same form of governance as the Left but with different books and morals. And to think you run around calling people incoherent sheep.

The West wins again, nigger.
 
Nah. The conversation has fizzled. You've come out and said you'd prefer a heavy-handed government, that you'd prefer living in poverty, and that you want the same form of governance as the Left but with different books and morals. And to think you run around calling people incoherent sheep.

The West wins again, nigger.
I'm demonstrating the incoherence of your position. Your position is that "the west is better" because it is "not totalitarian" and that I am bad because I "want totalitarianism." My position is that I want degeneracy to be made as unacceptable as racism in the west.

If we posit that norms surrounding racism in the west are not totalitarian--then if those same norms were simply applied to other subjects, that would not be totalitarian either, thus falsifying your claim that I "want totalitarianism."
If we posit that norms surrounding racism in the west do qualify as totalitarian, this falsifies your claim that the west is "not totalitarian."
 
I'm demonstrating the incoherence of your position. Your position is that "the west is better" because it is "not totalitarian" and that I am bad because I "want totalitarianism." My position is that I want degeneracy to be made as unacceptable as racism in the west.

If we posit that norms surrounding racism in the west are not totalitarian--then if those same norms were simply applied to other subjects, that would not be totalitarian either, thus falsifying your claim that I "want totalitarianism."
If we posit that norms surrounding racism in the west do qualify as totalitarian, this falsifies your claim that the west is "not totalitarian."
Is it difficult living your life viewing things as either one or the other, with no gray areas or mixtures?

Does it occur to you that there is a lead-up to totalitarianism, and that it doesn't happen all at once?

Do you understand that while the West is presently not totalitarian, and that it is the social norms and policies being put in place are pulling us towards that?

Do you now see why applying different ideals gets the same result?

What you want is by definition complete totalitarianism. You want the government to determine morality and filter out people based on how much they align with what is considered to be moral and righteous. This isn't about your beliefs and comparing them to existing pervasive beliefs. This is about you literally saying that you would like TPTB to do the same thing that they're doing now but for what you believe to be moral. You also said something along the lines of wanting the governing bodies to "deal with" those groups.

It is indeed possible to be more or less authoritarian, which is what we are seeing in the West.

There is no incoherence on my part. I don't believe that your values are equated to totalitarianism, you told us that is how you want your ideals to be applied.
 
Is it difficult living your life viewing things as either one or the other, with no gray areas or mixtures?
You are the one who has attempted to apply a black-or-white "Totalitarian or Not Totalitarian" standard.

Does it occur to you that there is a lead-up to totalitarianism, and that it doesn't happen all at once?

Do you understand that while the West is presently not totalitarian, and that it is the social norms and policies being put in place are pulling us towards that?
If we are about to become Totalitarian, then how am I not correct in pointing that out and stating that our culture/governments thus have no real claim to any kind of moral superiority over other regions of the world? Does "well we're not full on North Korea yet, we just need a little more time to get there" really strike you as a compelling defense?

What you want is by definition complete totalitarianism. You want the government to determine morality and filter out people based on how much they align with what is considered to be moral and righteous. This isn't about your beliefs and comparing them to existing pervasive beliefs. This is about you literally saying that you would like TPTB to do the same thing that they're doing now but for what you believe to be moral. You also said something along the lines of wanting the governing bodies to "deal with" those groups.

It is indeed possible to be more or less authoritarian, which is what we are seeing in the West.

There is no incoherence on my part. I don't believe that your values are equated to totalitarianism, you told us that is how you want your ideals to be applied.
No, I've said multiple times that I'm not picky about the methods by which the degeneracy is reversed, I just want it dealt with. Repeating this strawman over and over again will not make it any less strawy. Leftists who want everything to be either banned or compulsory are looking for totalitarianism. I am only looking for a particular ideology--although admittedly one which currently touches nearly every aspect of life because it's been allowed to grow so monstrously out of control--to be banned or just otherwise made unacceptable again. In exactly the same way that being a Nazi was considered beyond the pale here for the past century. I'm assuming you don't believe that the United States has been a totalitarian society since 1945 just because certain ideologies have been made unacceptable for people to hold.
 
Again, I don't want totalitarianism, I just want not-degeneracy. I want it to be at least as unacceptable to do any of the destructive shit that is currently celebrated (whoring, fagging, trooning, etc.) as it is to be a """racist.""" Whether that is achieved through outright bans and censorship, softer methods such as changing of social norms, or some combination, I don't really care. I just want the problem dealt with.


And what is your brilliant solution to the busted Western system, if you acknowledge that it's busted? Drive some trucks around and voote harder to voote in corrupt degenerate #2 to replace corrupt degenerate #1?
We get it. You wanna move to the Middle East so much, and kill all the fags, and have forty tradwives, and sell your daughter for a goat so she doesn't turn into a dirty thot.

Just do it then. Get off the internet and go to Afghanistan. Or hell, move to Utah, and join one of the Mormon sects. They're basically the same thing only with white people, and crazy-ass secret rituals.
 
No, I've said multiple times that I'm not picky about the methods by which the degeneracy is reversed, I just want it dealt with. Repeating this strawman over and over again will not make it any less strawy. Leftists who want everything to be either banned or compulsory are looking for totalitarianism. I am only looking for a particular ideology--although admittedly one which currently touches nearly every aspect of life because it's been allowed to grow so monstrously out of control--to be banned or just otherwise made unacceptable again. In exactly the same way that being a Nazi was considered beyond the pale here for the past century. I'm assuming you don't believe that the United States has been a totalitarian society since 1945 just because National Socialism was/is an unacceptable ideology for people to hold.
Your desires and ideologies require totalitarianism. You're equally as cognitively dissonant as Leftists. Bleh. I'm gonna hit that ignore button now. I hope you find your way.
 
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China is a shit hole. People talking about how China will be the superpower with any degree of comfort is in for a shocking reality if they ever do take the reins. There will be no good will to any country that is not China and the Chinese are the nigger jews of the East. They are dirty, do not care about eachother and will jew you any chance they get. Fucking ass loads of stories about the chinks stealing toilet paper.
Shit, in beijing they still practice binding feet in some places. The Chinks are backwards ass people. I say the same for India.

Does the US have issues? Yes. But at least where I live I don't have to constantly deal with people defecating everywhere.
 
Your desires and ideologies require totalitarianism. You're equally as cognitively dissonant as Leftists. Bleh. I'm gonna hit that ignore button now. I hope you find your way.
Again, this is demonstrably false, unless you think that norms in the west WRT topics like racism and Nazism qualify as Totalitarianism. Given that your viewpoint is indefensible and has been backed into a corner, yes, you should probably just go ahead and stop.
 
You are the one who has attempted to apply a black-or-white "Totalitarian or Not Totalitarian" standard.
Well child the difference is pretty stark.
If we are about to become Totalitarian, then how am I not correct in pointing that out and stating that our culture/governments thus have no real claim to any kind of moral superiority over other regions of the world? Does "well we're not full on North Korea yet, we just need a little more time to get there" really strike you as a compelling defense?
Why must you faggots constantly equate you losing the argument with halp halp I'm bean repressed

It's the most pathetic of cope. No gays didn't win because the contest was unfair, gays won because you failed in your arguefyin.
No, I've said multiple times that I'm not picky about the methods by which the degeneracy is reversed, I just want it dealt with. Repeating this strawman over and over again will not make it any less strawy. Leftists who want everything to be either banned or compulsory are looking for totalitarianism. I am only looking for a particular ideology--although admittedly one which currently touches nearly every aspect of life because it's been allowed to grow so monstrously out of control--to be banned or just otherwise made unacceptable again. In exactly the same way that being a Nazi was considered beyond the pale here for the past century. I'm assuming you don't believe that the United States has been a totalitarian society since 1945 just because certain ideologies have been made unacceptable for people to hold.
Being a Nazi has not been illegal since 1945. Technically it wasn't even illegal during the war. You can be a Nazi all you want, no one is stopping you. No one will stop you.

You dope, that isn't the way things work. You seem to think the jackboots will get put back on the shelf once the degeneracy is jannied - whatever it is, it never gets fully jannied, and the jackboots never get put away again. Your mental horizon is a joke.
 
Well child the difference is pretty stark.

Why must you faggots constantly equate you losing the argument with halp halp I'm bean repressed

It's the most pathetic of cope. No gays didn't win because the contest was unfair, gays won because you failed in your arguefyin.

Being a Nazi has not been illegal since 1945. Technically it wasn't even illegal during the war. You can be a Nazi all you want, no one is stopping you. No one will stop you.

You dope, that isn't the way things work. You seem to think the jackboots will get put back on the shelf once the degeneracy is jannied - whatever it is, it never gets fully jannied, and the jackboots never get put away again. Your mental horizon is a joke.
Yes, technically, it isn't illegal. That means that I don't necessarily need any of the woke shit to be made illegal, either. Just making it as unacceptable as Nazism would be sufficient. And since it technically wouldn't be illegal, I suppose that means that it will have been dealt with by means that are Not Totalitarian. If we follow your line of thinking.
 
Yes, technically, it isn't illegal. That means that I don't necessarily need any of the woke shit to be made illegal, either. Just making it as unacceptable as Nazism would be sufficient. And since it technically wouldn't be illegal, I suppose that means that it will have been dealt with by means that are Not Totalitarian. If we follow your line of thinking.
Then you need to persuade people to make it socially proscribed, just as you would need to persuade people to make it legally proscribed. As I already said, a lot of this shit currently is being proscribed at the local and state level.

And since you can't even persuade an audience that should be very receptive, here at notorious international troonciding website kiwi farms dot net, you should go ahead and kill yourself. Save yourself from decades of anguish at your failure.
 
Then you need to persuade people to make it socially proscribed, just as you would need to persuade people to make it legally proscribed. As I already said, a lot of this shit currently is being proscribed at the local and state level.

And since you can't even persuade an audience that should be very receptive, here at notorious international troonciding website kiwi farms dot net, you should go ahead and kill yourself. Save yourself from decades of anguish at your failure.
Yes, one means of dealing with the problem would be "persuading" people. Actually examining the means by which (((persuasion))) happens in places like the United States might reveal some problems with that concept, but that is another conversation. At least you've had the intellectual honesty to drop the absurd all-or-nothing "Totalitarian or Not Totalitarian" lens.
 
Yes, one means of dealing with the problem would be "persuading" people. Actually examining the means by which (((persuasion))) happens in places like the United States might reveal some problems with that concept, but that is another conversation. At least you've had the intellectual honesty to drop the absurd all-or-nothing "Totalitarian or Not Totalitarian" lens.
No one likes a whiner. All you do is whine. Kill yourself.
 
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Call it mob rule, I personally think it's just a statement that reeks of hobbesianism (which I absolutely detest) and maybe it really is many things, like a more violent system, but at the end of the day custom rather than law is how we worked for most of our history, and we worked just fine.
Except it didn't work just fine, because most of our history was heavily marred by violence, injustice, rigid hierarchy, credulity, and oppression. It's only since the creation of (largely Western) systems of government that the average person has had a fighting chance at all, and your previous assertions about the arbitrariness of Western governance are in fact completely ass-backwards.

The foundation of Western legal philosophy is the idea that law should be dictated by axiom and precedent, while the alternative you favor is a legal system which is decided by whim. Whim of the people, or whim of a dictator; the difference doesn't really matter in practice, because both are necessarily arbitrary, and therefore contain no hard limits on their application. This is tyranny; not freedom.

The central problem with your argument, I think, is that you appear to subscribe to the teenage glibertarian view which holds that freedom is best defined by the absence of authority, when really, a much better way to measure it is through the presence of choice. To truly empower someone, you give them the power to choose the course of their destiny—free of oppression and coercion—and the fact remains that you will overwhelmingly find a lot more of this kind of freedom in the West than you will in less civilized places. It's not merely a matter of money, either, because Spain is clearly a much freer society than Qatar, despite the latter having a much larger GDP per capita.
 
The West is either on the verge of collapse, an endless and increasingly crazy Current Year, or a pendulum swing to hard right.

(also the poll should also have an option for leaving "society" altogether)
 
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The West is either on the verge of collapse, an endless and increasingly crazy Current Year, or a pendulum swing to hard right.
Shit won't swing. The ruling class wants everyone who reminds them of how they came to rule destroyed, and they'll do it. Just like in the movie—"a lasting darkness." Civilization has already ended. Humanity soon will too.
 
Except it didn't work just fine, because most of our history was heavily marred by violence, injustice, rigid hierarchy, credulity, and oppression. It's only since the creation of (largely Western) systems of government that the average person has had a fighting chance at all, and your previous assertions about the arbitrariness of Western governance are in fact completely ass-backwards.

Violence and injustice are generic issues you're throwing out which exist everywhere, and there isn't even a reason to believe that there's less "injustice" in developed Western liberaldemocracies than elsewhere. How do we even define injustice? What is unjust?
Va((ine passports might get the gold medal in recent history, but even more abstractly, from a communist point of view I could tell you that capitalism itself is "unjust", because private property under capitalism is, by definition, not for everyone, or you would have a society of only employers and not also employees. This kind of unequal spread of property doesn't exactly allow for universal human development. You don't have to agree with the commie analysis in particular but the point here is that "Justice" is something that differs in definition from person to person, that's why people have different political ideas and vote (when they do) different parties. This without taking into account the interests of their own clique, but even those affect their idea of what is just and what isn't.
Rigid hierarchy? Towards whom? Your parents? The town's priest? I can digest this hierarchy, one based on custom and respect, not to mention informal, but here all hierarchies that organically emerged from thousands of social development erode in favor of a nanny state. They have to, because they're "competition" to it. This is the essence of totalitarianism. At least those hierarchies were natural, or as close as they came to it.
Credulity? My dude, if this is a jab at religion... religion gives us a sense of the sacred, it allows us to value what's around us. What do we value now? And how are we less credulous if we buy every stupid excuse to degrade our own lives? First you must save the banks, then you must get the gene therapy to save grandma, then you must pay thrice as much for gasoline for the Ukrainians (a speculation not even related to them, in reality), and then you must be on diet as the grocery stores empty themselves and your own democratic government starves you into eating bugs because cow farts are going to kill us all. Random examples here, I can also apply this to every war that we fought in the last 50 years, wars we entusiastically supported back then but then with two decades of hindsight we disavow, and we keep repeating this cycle over and over because "No, dude, this time it's different", except it never is. And so many other examples I could think of.

The foundation of Western legal philosophy is the idea that law should be dictated by axiom and precedent, while the alternative you favor is a legal system which is decided by whim. Whim of the people, or whim of a dictator; the difference doesn't really matter in practice, because both are necessarily arbitrary, and therefore contain no hard limits on their application. This is tyranny; not freedom.

No, that's the foundation of Common Law, it isn't the foundation of European judicial systems, for example, or those of most of the world. In fact, it's the whim of the state ("contained" and codified in constitutions and legal codes) that's the foundation of most Western judicial systems.

The central problem with your argument, I think, is that you appear to subscribe to the teenage glibertarian view which holds that freedom is best defined by the absence of authority, when really, a much better way to measure it is through the presence of choice. To truly empower someone, you give them the power to choose the course of their destiny—free of oppression and coercion—and the fact remains that you will overwhelmingly find a lot more of this kind of freedom in the West than you will in less civilized places. It's not merely a matter of money, either, because Spain is clearly a much freer society than Qatar, despite the latter having a much larger GDP per capita.

You won't get rid of authority that easily and I wouldn't even want to, but the authorities we have today are inorganic, unnatural, artificial. They are not the product of any real social or historical development but rather the practical application of some formulas conceived by some idiots three centuries ago. The state, especially the modern one, is an abstraction you're beaten and forced and taxed into pretending it's real when it isn't, on its own it's just papers, but these papers have physical enforcers. This is not a natural thing, this is not how human societies work.
We didn't need laws and fines to not go around naked or not kill each other, it was social custom and pressure. It wasn't the state you needed to fear if you acted wrongly, but your fellow man, the punishment was the shame and the humiliation from the people you knew but the state has replaced itself to our neighbour as the enforcer of conduct (one that I can't even necessarily call good one), the abstraction has replaced the physical and that's one of my biggest beefs with the modern world: it's idealistic, by which I don't mean that it fantasises impossibile upheavals but literally that it makes you act according to ideas (the ones contained in the god-papers) rather than material life around you. Today Society itself, something material and observable though not quantifiable and placeable on paper (thank God for that) acts according to the idea of the law rather than itself, it's shackled itself to the abstraction.
What kind of empowerment do you see here? How is cohercion by abstraction better than pressure by society?
Qatar isn't a shithole, it isn't a good example.

Sorry my dude but all your points just look like a lot of whig history to me.
 
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I will add that this guy's right about the East Imitating the west. East stagnate for thousands of years, West gradually advancing in technology, exploration, etc... Its only when the West threatened the East's whether through culture, science, military and all of the above, as in full force during the colonial period, unlike when say China was trading with the Roman empire, that the East decided to advance; Meiji Restoration in Japan.

Never rocking the boat, hammering the nail that's loose above the board; the only time the east rise is when their very boats are rocked.
The Roman Empire is not the West. The West is born out of the Roman empire.
 
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