Is the West better? - Regarding freedom/human rights/oligarchs

Where would you rather live?

  • Ameurope

    Votes: 56 80.0%
  • Chinussia

    Votes: 14 20.0%

  • Total voters
    70
This is why I've asked you if you spend too much time on Reddit.
I'm almost certain this tard comes from 4chan's /pol/ board, he is so delusional and stubborn that he might also be very autistic. I do see why you think he comes from Plebbit because likewise this site is full of spastics and autists, but I can't name you a single community on Plebbit that would unironically agree with him and still not be banned.
Dude, stop. No one's gonna van you for screaming those things in public. Suck it up, go drink a glass of water, and get off the internet so you can go spend time with your kids.
I guarantee you he would rather die on this hill knowing full well he spread his "truth" to the few Nationalists who are actually taking his bullshit seriously than admit being wrong. He's not just Transphobic which we all are to some extent, he's Transphobic to a fault. His beliefs are unhinged and arguing with him is like arguing with a Schizophrenic.
 
GDP
Poverty rates
Availability of medical care
Availability of goods and food

Muh GDP! Yeah, living here is materially easier, for now. Already gone over that. Having more money has little relationship with morals/being a good person.

IQ/Intelligence

Which we have mostly used to justify communism, trannies, etc. Just like with having a lot of money, being really smart on an IQ test has little correlation with morality.

Human rights violations
War crimes

Is this a joke? Or have you really forgotten that quickly and easily how many civilians we've killed in the Middle East since 9/11? I guess you've been too busy cooming over Ukraine. Propaganda is a hell of a drug.

General reported happiness

Self-reported happiness lol. Yes a lot of soy consoomers will say that they are happy on a poll, I don't doubt that. They also got tripled jabbed and put the Ukraine flags on their FB profiles. You'll have to forgive me for valuing my own conceptions of meaning over those of the average modern cattle-citizen.

If this is all you can come up with to defend the mighty West then I feel like my point is pretty well taken. You can't actually refute how horrific and degenerate our culture is so you just have to point to muh GDP and "but bro putin throws people in jail."
The entire globe is steering into a China-esque dictatorship with social credit and Thinkpol. It's a moot point, I think we can agree on that. Very soon, no matter where you go, the minimum level of totalitarianism is going to be equivalent to today's China. There is almost no point in arguing or even discussing this fact because we all see it.

I don't see how this supports your defense of the west. You were saying that we aren't as authoritarian as a place like China, but now you're saying we're about to be anyways. If that's the case, and I'm living in an authoritarian state either way, then why wouldn't I prefer to live in the one where I'm not expected to worship trannies?
Those places have far more infrastructure and systems in place to control you. No thanks. I can still turn off my devices and ignore it all, I don't have to worry about my social credit score declining for jaywalking yet.

I swear, you talk like you were born yesterday. I'm old enough to remember being locked in my condo for eight months. And that was in the relatively "free" United States, it's been exponentially worse in other parts of the supposedly "free" world, as other posters have pointed out. In a lot of these "free" nations you can't even flee the country if you don't consent to the covid jab.
I concede that troonism is probably less common in the East, but I'd be giving up a lot of good things just to not be near open faggotry. At least we can rest assured all of these mutilated and disfigured trannies can never fight if it ever comes down to that. They only have their ideology.

The trannies are just the ultimate symptom of the disease. Troonism is encouraged precisely because it neuters the population and renders them harmless to the state.

This is why I've asked you if you spend too much time on Reddit. That's the only place I can think of it being so harshly espoused that you truly cannot disagree and stick around. Maybe if you live in the middle of LA, sure, but people screaming obscene things in LA (or anywhere) isn't uncommon and you won't get honor killed for it. You really will get stoned to death in some places for blasphemy, and sometimes much less.

Can we move on to a different talking point than troons? I hate them too but this is unhealthy. You've mentioned troons in every post so far. I'm beginning to think you might be one.

No we can't because you refuse to recognize the problem.
 
I'm almost certain this tard comes from 4chan's /pol/ board, he is so delusional and stubborn that he might also be very autistic. I do see why you think he comes from Plebbit because likewise this site is full of and autists, but I can't name you a single community on Plebbit that would unironically agree with him and still not be banned.

I guarantee you he would rather die on this hill knowing full well he spread his "truth" to the few Nationalists who are actually taking his bullshit seriously than admit being wrong. He's not just Transphobic which we all are to some extent, he's Transphobic to a fault. His beliefs are unhinged and arguing with him is like arguing with a Schizophrenic.
Why do autists and aspies love Coommunism so much? It's a popular trend and I've never understood it. It doesn't do anything special for them. Is it just getting sucked in and then being unmoving because they're retarded?

Anyway, I called him a troll a few pages ago and I should've stopped there.
No we can't because you refuse to recognize the problem.
Okay, so your problem with the west, in summation, is TRANNY BAD!!! and we're going to ignore everything else. Sorry, faggot, but I don't surround myself with enough Troon culture to believe that it is so severe that I need to run into communist totalitarianism. I'm sorry that mutilated skinbags have scared you so much that you would choose to live in utter shite because "muh morals." What is moralfagging, Alex?
 
Why do autists and aspies love Coommunism so much? It's a popular trend and I've never understood it. It doesn't do anything special for them. Is it just getting sucked in and then being unmoving because they're retarded?

Anyway, I called him a troll a few pages ago and I should've stopped there.

Okay, so your problem with the west, in summation, is TRANNY BAD!!! and we're going to ignore everything else. Sorry, faggot, but I don't surround myself with enough Troon culture to believe that it is so severe that I need to run into communist totalitarianism. I'm sorry that mutilated skinbags have scared you so much that you would choose to live in utter shite because "muh morals." What is moralfagging, Alex?
In summation yes. Trannies are the most repulsive and overt symptom of a decades (some would argue century plus) long trend of moral degradation and degeneration. That's why I reference them, they're the easiest shorthand for the overall problem. If you think the trans phenomenon just arbitrarily sprung up out of nowhere and has no relations to anything else that's happened in our culture, that shows the depth of your ignorance.
 
In summation yes. Trannies are the most repulsive and overt symptom of a decades (some would argue century plus) long trend of moral degradation and degeneration. That's why I reference them, they're the easiest shorthand for the overall problem. If you think the trans phenomenon just arbitrarily sprung up out of nowhere and has no relations to anything else that's happened in our culture, that shows the depth of your ignorance.
You're assuming I'm ignorant. As a matter of fact, you and I probably have a lot of ideological overlap. I recognize Leftism and its products. I recognize the complete and utter failure of Western systems. 'Leftist' is far more general and accurate for what I think you're trying to say. Even if we're talking about the rise of Leftism, the West still wins. You've contrived a narrative where every Western nation is openly promoting chopping your bits off and changing your gender and the East is somehow promoting whiteness and Christianity and morality. Newsflash: God is dead and that doesn't change because you move to an impoverished backwater Slavic shithole. Morality is still dead there, too, it just doesn't look the same.

Keep trying to convince people that the East is somehow better. It won't work. I bet you're not even old enough to have seen shit like Waco unfold live. The world is a bad place, and the West is certainly irredeemable at this point, but the East has been irredeemable for far, far longer. Everything the East does is a knock-off cheapened version of what the west does. This applies to politics, leadership, products, and economics.

I'm done fucking up the thread now. Hopefully this retard says something actually funny soon :story:
 
You're assuming I'm ignorant. As a matter of fact, you and I probably have a lot of ideological overlap. I recognize Leftism and its products. I recognize the complete and utter failure of Western systems. 'Leftist' is far more general and accurate for what I think you're trying to say. Even if we're talking about the rise of Leftism, the West still wins. You've contrived a narrative where every Western nation is openly promoting chopping your bits off and changing your gender and the East is somehow promoting whiteness and Christianity and morality. Newsflash: God is dead and that doesn't change because you move to an impoverished backwater Slavic shithole. Morality is still dead there, too, it just doesn't look the same.

Keep trying to convince people that the East is somehow better. It won't work. I bet you're not even old enough to have seen shit like Waco unfold live. The world is a bad place, and the West is certainly irredeemable at this point, but the East has been irredeemable for far, far longer. Everything the East does is a knock-off cheapened version of what the west does. This applies to politics, leadership, products, and economics.

I'm done fucking up the thread now. Hopefully this retard says something actually funny soon :story:
It sounds like you are a nihilist with an incoherent viewpoint. The West is irredeemable, but the East is even more irredeemable, so we should stay in the less irredeemable part of the world even though the whole world overall is irredeemable. Okay. I don't think whiteness and Christianity are being promoted in Asia, but you have to admit that girldicks and frontholes aren't being promoted there either. Unless you want to adopt the cope of that one guy and start saying that ackchyually everywhere is literally always exactly identically the same.

My viewpoint is less about the East somehow being "good" (because yes, everywhere has its problems) and more about just how utterly evil the West is. If any place is going to be "redeemed," I think it will end up being somewhere outside of "the West," though I won't pretend to know exactly where or how as I'm not a prophet. But I don't see how the ship turns around over here, we aren't just gonna heckin' voote our way out of this. You said yourself in an earlier post that we will end up with China-style authoritarianism soon anyways (another instance of your viewpoint being incoherent).
 
Of course not, what I mean is that a third world people is still able to take matters in their own hands, while western people are entirely dependent on increasingly-authoritarian and arbitrary state power to take any decision for their lives.
I think you'll find that the rule of the mob in a Third World country is considerably more arbitrary and draconian than anything you could possibly expect from a Western democratic government. Flawed though the West may be, if Pakistan is your idea of a free society, then your definition of freedom needs some serious revision.
 
It's difficult to say that @gang weeder doesn't have a point. Liberal ideologies have engulfed the Net, educational institutions, large businesses. They all promote the same troon shit.
 
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It's difficult to say that @gang weeder doesn't have a point. Liberal ideologies have engulfed the Net, educational institutions, large businesses. They all promote the same troon shit.
He's right about Leftism, which isn't difficult to achieve. When you look at the topic at hand, his points are flimsy and amount to believing that there are probably fewer trannies in third world countries. Then he's using that singular pillar to uphold an entire argument that living in the East would be better than the West.

Here's an interesting question: how is desiring a government so powerful that it determines your morals any different from Leftism, which desires just that, but for things we don't agree with?

He's distilled the question down to a highly specific point of talking, refused to leave that point, and thinks digging into the complexity of the question amounts to incoherence. Just because someone doesn't repeat the same thing over and over doesn't make it incoherent.

There are a few countries in the Eastern sphere that could be used as evidence for a good living, but he wants to double-down that troons are bad and having a leader like Xi Jinping would totally be better than being left alone by the government, as is traditionally desired in the West.
 
He's right about Leftism, which isn't difficult to achieve. When you look at the topic at hand, his points are flimsy and amount to believing that there are probably fewer trannies in third world countries. Then he's using that singular pillar to uphold an entire argument that living in the East would be better than the West.

Here's an interesting question: how is desiring a government so powerful that it determines your morals any different from Leftism, which desires just that, but for things we don't agree with?

He's distilled the question down to a highly specific point of talking, refused to leave that point, and thinks digging into the complexity of the question amounts to incoherence. Just because someone doesn't repeat the same thing over and over doesn't make it incoherent.

There are a few countries in the Eastern sphere that could be used as evidence for a good living, but he wants to double-down that troons are bad and having a leader like Xi Jinping would totally be better than being left alone by the government, as is traditionally desired in the West.
You would also say his arguments could be used against him if government did not agree to his views.
 
I think you'll find that the rule of the mob in a Third World country is considerably more arbitrary and draconian than anything you could possibly expect from a Western democratic government. Flawed though the West may be, if Pakistan is your idea of a free society, then your definition of freedom needs some serious revision.

Pakistan is also a democratic country... of some sort. If you mean elections to choose members of parliament and the president, they're democratic, but you're sticking to form without minding substance. I can just as well use an openly authoritarian shithole like Eritrea (one that, by the way, conscripts you for up to two-three decades to build roads), it wouldn't make much of a difference.

The point here is how integrated a people is with its government and what tools that government has to impose its will on people.
What has been used here to integrate the population? Moderate wealth, for some time (we're in the process of being destituted from it, slowly enough that most can't perceive it), mass media, public education, widespread high-speed internet, you name it, development in other words and all things that have their downturns; middle class lifestyle? Excellent tool to make people superficially satisfied and complacent. Mass media? Good entertainment but specifically meant to turn off your brain. Public education? Well it's nice to see those literacy rates numbers go up but school isn't there to allow your personal fulfillment as some constitution might state, but rather meant to prepare you to be a citizen, someone compliant and accepting of the country's values, and our values are objectively shit. Workable high-speed internet? It's nice to speak with others half a world away, but while people can swear that they know that an internet relationship is not the same as a real one, they become content with it to the point that they use it as a surrogate, and this is how you end up with a lonely people, detached from each other, with no sense of mutual trust or community. What have I said? One of our biggest issues is our lack of mutual trust. Dude, developed countries have a ticking time bomb in the form of incels, we might be superficially well-fed and there might not be cannons shooting out the windows, but our youth is among the most miserable in the world.
All of these factors and even more (think bureaucracy, meant to provide services to the public) that also interconnect with each other and shape citizens the way a state sees fit, because it is the state that manages them, not the citizens.
Totalitarianism - everyone within the State, nobody against or outside the state - is the direction that every state pursues, it HAS to and it will make use of every technological mean at its disposal that could otherwise be used by the public to emancipate itself, or it will become useless and fade away. It's about making itself necessary when it isn't, and in order to do so, perfectly "workable" societies have to be domesticated and turned dependent on the state, so that it can have a proper function and reason to be.

I'm not opposed to development in principle, but it is clear that development TODAY is used to the benefit of people who have every interest in dehumanizing us in every way possible, and since abolishing the state is out of the question for most people (they just don't have the correct analytical tools to see reality), I'm more than willing to leave Civilization to emigrate to some ape country that isn't entirely familiar (yet) with the trappings of modernity, and I know the risks here.
Call it mob rule, I personally think it's just a statement that reeks of hobbesianism (which I absolutely detest) and maybe it really is many things, like a more violent system, but at the end of the day custom rather than law is how we worked for most of our history, and we worked just fine.
I want to go back to nature, and by this I don't mean the woods.
 
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He's right about Leftism, which isn't difficult to achieve. When you look at the topic at hand, his points are flimsy and amount to believing that there are probably fewer trannies in third world countries. Then he's using that singular pillar to uphold an entire argument that living in the East would be better than the West.
I knocked down this strawman a few hours ago and you've run straight back to it. You have the memory of a fucking goldfish. Again:

In summation yes. Trannies are the most repulsive and overt symptom of a decades (some would argue century plus) long trend of moral degradation and degeneration. That's why I reference them, they're the easiest shorthand for the overall problem. If you think the trans phenomenon just arbitrarily sprung up out of nowhere and has no relations to anything else that's happened in our culture, that shows the depth of your ignorance.

Trannies are shorthand for the overall moral rot. If I were to sit here and start expounding on it at length I could write a dissertation, many dissertations. It's not *just* trannies, it's all the shit that came before and is associated with that overall cultural/ideological movement. It's whores boasting about posting their assholes on OnlyFans, feminists shouting their abortions, niggers glorifying murder and drugs and sex with whores in rap music, "diversity" as code for the elimination of white people, faggots in drag reading stories to children, you get the idea.

And you even started off admitting I'm right about leftism, so you are well aware of this, then you went ahead with the same strawman again anyways. That's why I'm calling you incoherent.

Here's an interesting question: how is desiring a government so powerful that it determines your morals any different from Leftism, which desires just that, but for things we don't agree with?
Every government will uphold certain moral standards and punish others. You are not going to get a magical place where social norms and government somehow don't exist. Given that reality, yes, I prefer a government that upholds my moral standards and punishes those I find unacceptable. Crazy of me, I know.

There are a few countries in the Eastern sphere that could be used as evidence for a good living, but he wants to double-down that troons are bad and having a leader like Xi Jinping would totally be better than being left alone by the government, as is traditionally desired in the West.
The absolute state of saying Western governments will just leave you alone after the past couple years.
 
west is more comfortable for now, but has no future.
china is less comfortable for now, but has a bright future.
russia is neither comfortable nor has a future. worst of both worlds.

the catch is that chinas bright future is for the chinese, not you. if you move there as a foreigner, expect them to take measures that keep you from getting to their level, to always keep you behind and below themselves.
I'm pretty sure China is also fucked since the One-Child Policy and their insitence on aborting female children has put them on the edge of an irreparable demographic crisis.
 
yes, I prefer a government that upholds my moral standards and punishes those I find unacceptable.
Adolf Hitler with kids.gif
 
Every government will uphold certain moral standards and punish others. You are not going to get a magical place where social norms and government somehow don't exist. Given that reality, yes, I prefer a government that upholds my moral standards and punishes those I find unacceptable. Crazy of me, I know.
Dude, just move to the Middle East already. I'm sure you'll love it there, and your daughter will grow up to be the obedient tradwife you've always wanted her to be.
 
What is defensible about:
A) Taking political prisoners for dissenting (China)
B) Forcing women to be possessions and forcing them to wear full body coverage (Middle East)
C) Alcoholism being a celebrated national pastime and being a dredge is acceptable (Russia/Eastern sphere)
D) Making monkey noises and setting each other on fire for being witches (Africa)
a) is defensible because a society that doesn't do it leaves itself open to subversion and destabilization by hostile actors
b) is defensible because while it might be a bit excessive, it still successfully provides society with an above replacement level birth rate, so it is superior to the western/secular model (feminism, equality) in a fundamental and indisputable way
 
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Dude, just move to the Middle East already. I'm sure you'll love it there, and your daughter will grow up to be the obedient tradwife you've always wanted her to be.

For what it's worth, a government enforcing with brute force its values on its population will result in its citizens embracing the opposite ideals.
Cynicism ruled in post-Stalin Soviet Russia, they just didn't believe in "Marxism-Leninism" as many jokes attest, and Iran where they force women to wear veils is full of vain whores with nose jobs.

The West does this without the brute force, and unlike in less refined totalitarisnism it works, but it's also inhumane. I don't think it's desirable either way. Maybe people should just be trusted. Hell, since troonism is unnatural, it might as well disappear organically, on its own, without states and companies and NGOs to astroturf it. No need to bruteforce its way out, it won't work.
 
I knocked down this strawman a few hours ago and you've run straight back to it. You have the memory of a fucking goldfish. Again:

In summation yes. Trannies are the most repulsive and overt symptom of a decades (some would argue century plus) long trend of moral degradation and degeneration. That's why I reference them, they're the easiest shorthand for the overall problem. If you think the trans phenomenon just arbitrarily sprung up out of nowhere and has no relations to anything else that's happened in our culture, that shows the depth of your ignorance.

Trannies are shorthand for the overall moral rot. If I were to sit here and start expounding on it at length I could write a dissertation, many dissertations. It's not *just* trannies, it's all the shit that came before and is associated with that overall cultural/ideological movement. It's whores boasting about posting their assholes on OnlyFans, feminists shouting their abortions, niggers glorifying murder and drugs and sex with whores in rap music, "diversity" as code for the elimination of white people, faggots in drag reading stories to children, you get the idea.

And you even started off admitting I'm right about leftism, so you are well aware of this, then you went ahead with the same strawman again anyways. That's why I'm calling you incoherent.


Every government will uphold certain moral standards and punish others. You are not going to get a magical place where social norms and government somehow don't exist. Given that reality, yes, I prefer a government that upholds my moral standards and punishes those I find unacceptable. Crazy of me, I know.


The absolute state of saying Western governments will just leave you alone after the past couple years.

a) is defensible because a society that doesn't do it leaves itself open to subversion and destabilization by hostile actors
b) is defensible because while it might be a bit excessive, it still successfully provides society with an above replacement level birth rate, so it is superior to the western/secular model (feminism, equality) in a fundamental and indisputable way
You both realize you've just gone from preferring a state that agrees with your values to preferring a totalitarian dictatorship that actively seeks to rip what it views as rot from its system. That's all fun and games until you've become the rot. If you live in a western civilization, you are the rot to the Left. Moving somewhere else does not prevent you from becoming rot, it only moves the goalposts a little further away from you for the time.

Goddamn, it took you long enough to just come out and say you would enjoy fascist dictatorship. Good news, boys, there's lots of it.
 
a) is defensible because a society that doesn't do it leaves itself open to subversion and destabilization by hostile actors
b) is defensible because while it might be a bit excessive, it still successfully provides society with an above replacement level birth rate, so it is superior to the western/secular model (feminism, equality) in a fundamental and indisputable way

I'm a cuck with a breeding fetish.
FTFY.
 
That's all fun and games until you've become the rot.
we already are there my man
there's a reason you only see this expressed on obscure anonymous internet forums by users behind multiple VPNs or TOR layers, because expressing dissident opinions with your real identity attached can and will literally get you thrown in prison across most of europe
 
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