The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Lord Edge of Leetworth]

As for her point in regards to pain, she's saying she would rather a pregnancy be terminated before the fetus is able to perceive pain, not that personhood is assigned to pain. Would you rather it feel pain, or would you rather it not?

Apparently the jew is so dumb that it needs an interpreter, who mentions "her" in third person, to explain its poor takes for it. Ngmi.

How exactly could you propose that "consciousness begins to arise" at such a specific time as the 24th week? This seems impossible to measure or quantify from outside of the person's own mind.

The foetal brain and consciousness are extraordinarily fascinating subjects that I'll gladly discuss without succumbing to insults or prejudice. However before that is possible we need to define consciousness, which is still a disputed subject that when taken for granted generates bad science. Are you a physicalist? If so would you say that you subscribe to emergentism? I presume yes given your subsequent comments.

Measuring brain activity with an fMRI or something is certainly a more interesting road to go down than any of the other extremely flimsy copes put up by abortionists. This still fails, though, because consciousness is not defined by electrical activity in the brain. It is defined by self-awareness, which cannot be perceived from outside of the person's own, y'know, consciousness. It is therefore impossible to objectively "measure" and determine in a yes/no fashion. If you put some electrodes on my head as an infant and take some readings, I'm sure there was all kinds of electrical activity firing around in those neurons (just like there would be for a fetus at 24 weeks), but in my opinion I was not conscious yet because I do not have any memories of laying around in a crib screaming and shitting myself (and neither do the vast majority, if not all of the rest of us).

Reading this I cannot find anything that ultimately helps inform us on the issue of abortion. At worst it can be interpreted as you trying to muddy the water by appealing to ignorance, since if we cannot establish when the mind emerges (yet acknowledge that it does and that it determines personhood) we might as well stop all abortions as they risk terminating persons.

 

[gang weeder]

Reading this I cannot find anything that ultimately helps inform us on the issue of abortion. At worst it can be interpreted as you trying to muddy the water by appealing to ignorance, since if we cannot establish when the mind emergence (yet acknowledge that it does and that it determines personhood) we might as well stop all abortions as they risk terminating persons.

>we might as well stop all abortions as they risk terminating persons

And there you have it, you managed to arrive at the correct answer. Of course, I would go one step further and say not that abortions merely "risk" terminating persons, but rather, they do terminate persons. My point here was to demonstrate the impossibility of using "consciousness" as a standard for personhood/what counts as a human being.

 

[Lord Edge of Leetworth]

>we might as well stop all abortions as they risk terminating persons

And there you have it, you managed to arrive at the correct answer. Of course, I would go one step further and say not that abortions merely "risk" terminating persons, but rather, they do terminate persons. My point here was to demonstrate the impossibility of using "consciousness" as a standard for personhood/what counts as a human being.

I stand corrected. You don't just muddy the discourse: You shit all over it and try to climb on top of the dung heap.

 

[snailslime]

Well I mean, it doesn't say "human infant" either, now does it? Therefore I posit that Human Infants are not Human Beings and are therefore fine to smother.

human infants are children and they have the abilities to feel pain.

Who are you to decide?

I actually value all life. So I value animals just like I value humans.

I don't really care about non-sentient clumps of cells though. Am I a murderer for having periods?

Ah yes, the almighty scientist said so, and that means it simply is. As I said before, raw appeal to authority is not an argument. Troosting the heckin' experts is a terrible epistemological strategy as they will flat out lie to you due to political pressure--most """scientists""" would also try and tell you that men are women, for example. Not because they actually believe it (I mean, some of them might, idk), but because if they say otherwise they'll lose their jobs. Abortion is right up there with trannies in terms of politically sensitive topics for """scientists""" to weigh in on.

Blah blah blah, scientists know more about this stuff than you ever will. Why should I, or anybody trust you over someone who spent decades studying all the sciences?

Measuring brain activity with an fMRI or something is certainly a more interesting road to go down than any of the other extremely flimsy copes put up by abortionists. This still fails, though, because consciousness is not defined by electrical activity in the brain. It is defined by self-awareness, which cannot be perceived from outside of the person's own, y'know, consciousness. It is therefore impossible to objectively "measure" and determine in a yes/no fashion. If you put some electrodes on my head as an infant and take some readings, I'm sure there was all kinds of electrical activity firing around in those neurons (just like there would be for a fetus at 24 weeks), but in my opinion I was not conscious yet because I do not have any memories of laying around in a crib screaming and shitting myself (and neither do the vast majority, if not all of the rest of us).

So how do you define "consciousness"?

If you can't remember being a baby then how the hell would a 10 week old fetus feel the pain of being aborted?

I address the ones that I feel like addressing, typically because I feel that those "points" are touching on something where there might actually be something substantive for me to contribute, as opposed to just repeating something that's already been explained. Most of your incoherent "points" are ignored because you are either legitimately retarded or a bad faith actor to the point of coming across as a troll.

No lol, you never refuted 90% of anything I ever said nor did you give me your opinion on those religious scriptures, despite using your religion as a (flimsy) excuse to argue against abortion.

 

[gang weeder]

I stand corrected. You don't just muddy the discourse: You shit all over it and try to climb on top of the dung heap.

I'm not sure what you are trying to dispute here. Maybe if you could be more specific on where you disagree with my viewpoint, I could give you a response that you would find more relevant.

 

[gang weeder]

I don't really care about non-sentient clumps of cells though. Am I a murderer for having periods?

So you're a Jew and a woman? Come on now. The only way this could get any more typical would be if you're also a minor or an extremely young adult.

 

[Eto]

I address the ones that I feel like addressing, typically because I feel that those "points" are touching on something where there might actually be something substantive for me to contribute, as opposed to just repeating something that's already been explained. Most of your incoherent "points" are ignored because you are either legitimately retarded or a bad faith actor to the point of coming across as a troll.

To be fair, this is Deep Thoughts on Kiwi Farms.

The foetal brain and consciousness are extraordinarily fascinating subjects that I'll gladly discuss without succumbing to insults or prejudice. However before that is possible we need to define consciousness, which is still a disputed subject that when taken for granted generates bad science. Are you a physicalist? If so would you say that you subscribe to emergentism?

Interesting. I can't say that I'm surprised that the subject is muddled with bad science, as it seems far more abstract than most subjects and harder to prove. Thank you for the link, too. I'll look over it in my free time.

 

[snailslime]

So you're a Jew and a woman? Come on now. The only way this could get any more typical would be if you're also a minor or an extremely young adult.

yes and you will never fuck a woman.

now refute my points or gtfo.

 

[snailslime]

Apparently the jew is so dumb that it needs an interpreter, who mentions "her" in third person, to explain its poor takes for it. Ngmi.

you're both dumb as shit. if you weren't you wouldn't resort to ad-hominems.

 

[Freya]

Ability to feel pain is an arbitrary criteria for not killing it, and is inconsistent with the fact you don't support killing people with CIPA.


Source.


"A newborn isn't even vaguely in the same league as a 3 year old let alone a 6 year old and it's fucking absurd to pretend otherwise."


View attachment 3124492

its interesting you people dont ever address the argument at hand, you just compare it to other things

 

[Freya]

i'm going to do that now actually.

pro lifers will say "what makes a baby different just because it passes the birth canal? it doesn't change"

well what materially changes if egg and sperm meet? its a fertilized embryo implanted in the uterus, is it any different than an unfertilized embryo?
not really

 

[Freya]

So you're a Jew and a woman? Come on now. The only way this could get any more typical would be if you're also a minor or an extremely young adult.

a pro lifer that hates women?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KbeqN7pZ4

 

[snailslime]

a pro lifer that hates women?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KbeqN7pZ4

men shouldn't have a right to vote on women's issues lol

 

[Freya]

men shouldn't have a right to vote on women's issues lol

when men ruled their familes with an iron fist, actual infants were left on the side of the road to die. now that women can control reproduction, scrotes are suddenly deeply concerned with fertilized embryos the size of a grain of rice

 

[snailslime]

when men ruled their familes with an iron fist, actual infants were left on the side of the road to die. now that women can control reproduction, scrotes are suddenly deeply concerned with fertilized embryos the size of a grain of rice

imagine how much worse the world would be if men had to deal with periods and pregnancy.

 

[BULLY HUNTER_77]

I don't really care about non-sentient clumps of cells though. Am I a murderer for having periods?

So you're saying life begins when a clump of cells develops a nervous system? Apparently, that's after about ~6 weeks.

Fetal Brain Development Stages: When Does a Fetus Develop a Brain?

Your baby’s brain development is a complex process that continues throughout your pregnancy. At just six weeks, the embryo’s brain and nervous system begin to develop, although the complex parts of the brain continue to grow and develop through the end of pregnancy, with development ending ...

flo.health

Coincidentally, 6 weeks is also the recently introduced limit in Texas. Do you think the Texas abortion law is a fair compromise between the reproductive rights of the mother and the value of the life for a fetus?

 

[snailslime]

So you're saying life begins when a clump of cells develops a nervous system? Apparently, that's after about ~6 weeks.

Fetal Brain Development Stages: When Does a Fetus Develop a Brain?

Your baby’s brain development is a complex process that continues throughout your pregnancy. At just six weeks, the embryo’s brain and nervous system begin to develop, although the complex parts of the brain continue to grow and develop through the end of pregnancy, with development ending ...

flo.health

Coincidentally, 6 weeks is also the recently introduced limit in Texas. Do you think the Texas abortion law is a fair compromise between the reproductive rights of the mother and the value of the life for a fetus?

i said my opinion on the cap was around 22 weeks.

texas is gonna turn blue soon anyway

 

[gang weeder]

i'm going to do that now actually.

pro lifers will say "what makes a baby different just because it passes the birth canal? it doesn't change"

well what materially changes if egg and sperm meet? its a fertilized embryo implanted in the uterus, is it any different than an unfertilized embryo?
not really

>unfertilized embryo

You should probably go back and take middle school biology lessons before participating in this thread any further. Although I guess it would make sense that they don't teach reproductive biology in school anymore, since that would require teaching that men aren't women.

yes and you will never fuck a woman.

now refute my points or gtfo.

Not a Jewish woman, you're right about that much. How old are you? I'm curious if you're gonna make a hat trick on stereotypes here.

Blah blah blah, scientists know more about this stuff than you ever will. Why should I, or anybody trust you over someone who spent decades studying all the sciences?

And do you trust """scientists""" who tell you that men are women?

So how do you define "consciousness"?

As I said: Self-awareness. You could potentially tack on some other qualifiers like the ability to reason, to understand and perceive the flow of time, or something else like that. It doesn't really matter for reasons already explained. What most definitely does not define consciousness is electrical activity firing across neurons.

No lol, you never refuted 90% of anything I ever said nor did you give me your opinion on those religious scriptures, despite using your religion as a (flimsy) excuse to argue against abortion.

I don't think I've even referenced religion. If I did, I certainly haven't based any of my arguments on it. As is typical for abortion advocates, you're the one trying to lean on "religion bad" because you cannot cope with the central issue. And no, I don't argue faith with non-Christians anyways. Or at least, certainly not with Jews or atheists. Do you even practice the actual Jewish faith? I suspect you merely consider yourself a "cultural" or "ethnic" Jew. I don't feel like looking it up right now, but I'm pretty sure Jews who actually practice the religion (rather than simply claiming Jewish identity for virtue points) also condemn abortion.

To be fair, this is Deep Thoughts on Kiwi Farms.

Oh I'm not saying I expect better, just saying that's why I don't bother responding to every single thing this person says, because most of it is redundant, extremely retarded, or both. I'm actually pretty surprised by the quality of discussion on here, there's only a couple troglodyte-level posters (snailslime and Freya) with most posters being relatively coherent. Certainly better than you would get in a typical social media exchange on this subject, in which you would be drowned in the rabid screeching of NPCs if you didn't just get outright banned or censored.

 

[BULLY HUNTER_77]

i said my opinion on the cap was around 22 weeks.

texas is gonna turn blue soon anyway

No judgements - anyone who tries to boil this down into a black-and-white issue is a certified autist. Mind if I ask your reasoning on the 22 weeks and if you feel there should be any exceptions to the rule? (It's always a pain to dig through a thread like this)

 

[gang weeder]

No judgements - anyone who tries to boil this down into a black-and-white issue is a certified autist. Mind if I ask your reasoning on the 22 weeks and if you feel there should be any exceptions to the rule? (It's always a pain to dig through a thread like this)

Because the soyence said so. No seriously, that's her stated reasoning.