The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Eto]

Damn, would you look at that. Respectful, intellectually honest, and reasonable. You're not a liberal, are you?

As for your question regarding pain, obviously between the two options a painless death is preferable, but if it's an unnecessary death to begin with then they should both be avoided.

If you don't want to go the philosophical route that's fine, but even though I'm not arguing from that perspective I don't mind discussing it if you are coming from that angle

The flattery is appreciated. To answer your question, I used to consider myself one several years ago, but I fell out of it. I am sympathetic towards NeoConservatism—the actual ideology, not what people smear moderate Republicans as. It's actually why I respect your position more than other pro-life advocates who use justification from an Objectivist framework for why welfare shouldn't be a thing.

I also see that we're in agreement here in preferring a painless death. I've actually watched this thread since its inception, and have seen your views on display. I'm not going to ask questions for now, but if I come up with one, I'll be sure to ask.

Philosophical topics aren't my expertise, but it's something I'd like to study while in college; perhaps as a minor, so we'll skip this for now. For the fetus and animal life point for those asking, I would assume it's the view where you value your species' survival more than an animal's life—like how if I were to shoot an animal point blank, people would maybe freak depending on the animal, but it wouldn't invoke the intense response like a human were to be shot. I'm not saying that a fetus is a human; I'm simply explaining that some would see more intrinsic value in a fetus compared to an animal. There's a bunch of philosophical discussions involving the intrinsic value of human life compared to an animal's, The only flaw is that some of it argue from the perspective of humans being rational, so it won't apply to a fetus exactly.

Sperg debates never change any minds anywhere. There are people who value finding the morally correct stance above political convenience, and those people never need 300 page long sperg sessions to be convinced. If they haven't yet considered or been exposed to the correct stance, then once they have, they will adopt it very quickly with a minimal amount of pushback (or in many cases without engaging at all, instead simply viewing a convo like this one silently from the sidelines). Meanwhile, and this is unfortunately the majority of the population, there are people who value social and political convenience over truth, and thus no amount of debating will ever change their mind. Their mind will change only when public sentiment as a whole perceptibly changes, if ever.

This is off topic, but I think looking into personality theory would give you more insight as to why people are like this. The first thing I thought was Jungian Typology when I read this, but it's not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. The Big Five could offer insight, as well, and as far as I know, it's a better metric.

As of now, I'm going to try and sleep. I have an essay due Sunday and I need to focus more on that. I'll try to keep an eye on this thread in the meantime.

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

considering all of the immense suffering of babies and kids in real life that are actually affected and feel every ounce of it, for these weirdos to pretend to care about a grain of rice in a womans uterus is just utterly insane

Yeah it’s ironic to me how the same people who whine about abortion want to restrict welfare benefit schemes like you forced Shaniqua to breed so now why are you shocked she wants gibs to feed her kids.

In the past people would just starve the kids they couldn’t feed this still happens in the third world. (Bolivia has some of the highest infanticide rates in the world and their abortion ban is also one of the most restrictive)

None of these incels care about children they are ok with babies being starved to death which is what will happen if abortion and welfare benefits are completely banned all they care about is women being punished for having sex.

 

[gang weeder]

I don't care what the moral framework is, as long as it's consistent. You seem to struggle comprehending a moral framework outside your own - likely because it contains dissonant ideas.

Child rapists deserve the death penalty. Innocent children themselves do not. What is inconsistent about this?

From a biological perspective, you are your nervous system. The ability to process and react to pain is an indicator the organism has a basic sense of self or primitive consciousness. You are missing the point. In a world where the soul doesn't exist, a fetus only becomes a person when its nervous system develops. Aborting the development would be classified as contraception in that case. Why do you think your opponents spend all their time talking about their reproductive rights?

No, from a biological perspective, you are you. You were you when you were a zygote. You had not yet developed a nervous system but you were nonetheless a genetically distinct member of the human species.

If you've tied to bring this up with @snailslime over fifty times in this thread, there's nothing I can add to the conversation to make you understand her perspective better.

I think you're the one who needs help understanding perspectives here.

Philosophical topics aren't my expertise, but it's something I'd like to study while in college; perhaps as a minor, so we'll skip this for now. For the fetus and animal life point for those asking, I would assume it's the view where you value your species' survival more than an animal's life—like how if I were to shoot an animal point blank, people would maybe freak depending on the animal, but it wouldn't invoke the intense response like a human were to be shot. I'm not saying that a fetus is a human; I'm simply explaining that some would see more intrinsic value in a fetus compared to an animal. There's a bunch of philosophical discussions involving the intrinsic value of human life compared to an animal's, The only flaw is that some of it argue from the perspective of humans being rational, so it won't apply to a fetus exactly.

Yes, personally, I value human life on a different level than animal life. Killing animals when it serves a purpose to humans is routine and fine, though excessive or unnecessary cruelty to them is not. This is a bog standard normie tier intuition that everyone outside of hardcore vegans has (and even they probably retain it on some level).

This is off topic, but I think looking into personality theory would give you more insight as to why people are like this. The first thing I thought was Jungian Typology when I read this, but it's not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. The Big Five could offer insight, as well, and as far as I know, it's a better metric.

I'm just going off personal observation on this one. Although I do have a political science degree and could give you some bigheaded academic rambles about it, I guess. Bottom line is that it's abnormal to value truth above social conformity, but some small amount of people are in fact wired that way (hence why we as a species are able to develop and change our collective views over time, but only as a very long drawn out and autistic process).

Yeah it’s ironic to me how the same people who whine about abortion want to restrict welfare benefit schemes like you forced Shaniqua to breed so now why are you shocked she wants gibs to feed her kids.

No one forced Shaniqua to breed. Now, the father of a child should in fact help provide for that child, and what do you know, we codify that legally with child support and other family law statutes. But random strangers who have never met and will never meet Shaniqua obviously do not owe her anything. Which brings to mind a question, if I'm a father and a woman has the right to kill my child without my consent, should I have the right to abandon the child? You know, if I feel that I just can't afford a child financially right now.

In the past people would just starve the kids they couldn’t feed this still happens in the third world. (Bolivia has some of the highest infanticide rates in the world and their abortion ban is also one of the most restrictive)

Do you think it's acceptable to kill children because you feel that you "can't afford" them financially?

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

No one forced Shaniqua to breed. Now, the father of a child should in fact help provide for that child, and what do you know, we codify that legally with child support and other family law statutes. But random strangers who have never met and will never meet Shaniqua obviously do not owe her anything. Which brings to mind a question, if I'm a father and a woman has the right to kill my child without my consent, should I have the right to abandon the child? You know, if I feel that I just can't afford a child financially right now.


Do you think it's acceptable to kill children because you feel that you "can't afford" them financially?

Ok but black men have a reputation for being deadbeats you want to restrict abortion you are basically asking for the black,hispanic and white trash population to explode.

It’s not a child scientifically speaking there is a huge difference between aborting an embryo and leaving real kids who can feel pain and comprehend things to stave in the streets.

Thinking otherwise is insane but then again you are the guy who thinks killing real fully developed animals is better then abortion.

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

And to the last one,no my point is that this is what will happen if women have no access to safe contraception or abortion and families can’t get welfare schemes or access to proper family planning.

Read this article it goes into heavy detail about how ACTUAL Infanticide done to real born babies who can feel and comprehend things is correlated with poverty and low status even in animals.

https://aeon.co/essays/the-roots-of-infanticide-run-deep-and-begin-with-poverty

Affluent White Woman don’t have abortions the main reason a women aborts a fetus is because she can’t economically provide for it.

It may be wrong to you but would you rather abortion or babies who can feel pain being thrown into lakes because the family can’t afford to feed it.

But you are an incel who hates women so I guess that’s ok to you because atleast women get punished for having sex.

 

[gang weeder]

Ok but black men have a reputation for being deadbeats you want to restrict abortion you are basically asking for the black,hispanic and white trash to explode.

Well, what if those fathers feel that they aren't financially ready to have a child? Shouldn't they have a choice like women do? Or is this a choice that only women are worthy of having?

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

I never said that.

Well, what if those fathers feel that they aren't financially ready to have a child? Shouldn't they have a choice like women do? Or is this a choice that only women are worthy of having?

 

[BULLY HUNTER_77]

No, from a biological perspective, you are you. You were you when you were a zygote. You had not yet developed a nervous system but you were nonetheless a genetically distinct member of the human species.

Humanist perspective. Not what I was describing.

I think you're the one who needs help understanding perspectives here.

no u

 

[gang weeder]

I never said that.

I'm asking what you think about a man's "right to choose." Specifically, if he should have one the way that women do. I am going out on a limb here and just assuming that you probably favor gender equality.

Humanist perspective. Not what I was describing.

Well, whatever perspective you were describing is retarded and wrong. I can make up all kinds of random arbitrary qualifiers for what counts as a "person" and slap a fancy sounding label on them. Doesn't make any of it true or right.

Just realized you declined to even try to explain what is inconsistent about supporting the death penalty for child rapists but not for innocent children. Nice.

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

I'm asking what you think about a man's "right to choose." Specifically, if he should have one the way that women do. I am going out on a limb here and just assuming that you probably favor gender equality.I'm asking what you think about a man's "right to choose." Specifically, if he should have one the way that women do. I am going out on a limb here and just assuming that you probably favor gender equality.

Families should have the choice to abort fetuses but the womb is the mother’s so no one has but her has the right to control her body.

There is a huge difference between that and neglecting a real child if you had the child and aren’t putting it up for adoption it is you’re job to raise it.

It’s that simple but you are a sped go back to incels.me.

 

[snailslime]

@SSj_Ness

1) Appeal to emotion, again. Look up the definition of "parasite" and tell me it doesn't sound like what a fetus does.

2) How am I supposed to know if a hospital near me performs voluntary euthanasia?

3) A fetus isn't innocent because it isn't alive.

4) Lol, if you're going to go on a huge spiel about biology and its definition of life, then share some sources already. But no, somehow me asking for a scientific perspective is wrong.

5) The species of a human fetus is human but it's not a human being.

6) I mean, a lot of women would agree that their fetuses are worth less than a goldfish or else they wouldn't be getting abortions. Am I an evil murderer for having periods lol?

Not like you're actually interested in what real women say when they voice their opinions, anyway.

7) Who gave you the authority to decide that animals are less important than humans?

A newly conceived fetus is literally just as big as a grain of rice and has the same value as a blade of grass. You don't even know if the woman's body will decide to keep it. Why do you think we wait to announce our pregnancies?




9) You don't need to kill animals to survive anymore, you can get all the necessary vitamins from supplements or other sources. We do still need plants though. It's a necessary evil, but again, I'm pro-choice and not unconditionally pro-life.

10) Define pro-life then. I never saw you say "pro-human-life" just pro-life. Start calling yourself the former if you only care about humans.

I'm asking what you think about a man's "right to choose." Specifically, if he should have one the way that women do. I am going out on a limb here and just assuming that you probably favor gender equality.


Well, whatever perspective you were describing is retarded and wrong. I can make up all kinds of random arbitrary qualifiers for what counts as a "person" and slap a fancy sounding label on them. Doesn't make any of it true or right.

Just realized you declined to even try to explain what is inconsistent about supporting the death penalty for child rapists but not for innocent children. Nice.

Aww, we hurt your poor fee-fees. Cry about it.

 

[gang weeder]

Families should have the choice to abort fetuses but the womb is the mother’s so no one has but her has the right to control her body.

There is a huge difference between that and neglecting a real child if you had the child and aren’t putting it up for adoption it is you’re job to raise it.

It’s that simple but you are a sped go back to incels.me.

So you are very concerned with a woman's financial ability to provide for a child and believe she should be able to choose not to have that responsibility, but that this does not apply to men at all and that men can be "forced" to provide for children regardless of how they feel about it. Interesting. Well, not really, it's actually a very typical and predictable NPC viewpoint, but y'know. Funny how hard abortionists try to pin "hypocrisy" on their opposition when it's so easy to reveal this genuine hypocrisy in them.

5) The species of a human fetus is human but it's not a human being.

This is an incredible thing to type. "Yes it's human but no it's not human." The mental gymnastics can't get any more transparent than that.

 

[snailslime]

So you are very concerned with a woman's financial ability to provide for a child and believe she should be able to choose not to have that responsibility, but that this does not apply to men at all and that men can be "forced" to provide for children regardless of how they feel about it. Interesting. Well, not really, it's actually a very typical and predictable NPC viewpoint, but y'know. Funny how hard abortionists try to pin "hypocrisy" on their opposition when it's so easy to reveal this genuine hypocrisy in them.

Get back to us when men have to deal with carrying a fetus for 9 months.

This is an incredible thing to type. "Yes it's human but no it's not human." The mental gymnastics can't get any more transparent than that.

Look up the definition of a human being, dumbass.

 

[gang weeder]

Get back to us when men have to deal with carrying a fetus for 9 months.

Oh but what happened to all that spiel about how a child needs a bunch of gibs and welfare so they won't have a hard life? All of a sudden finances don't matter anymore and it's all just a matter of who has to physically carry the baby? How convenient.

Look up the definition of a human being, dumbass.

We've been over this exact talking point, in which you yourself posted that the definition of "human being" includes "human child." Like I keep saying, you're either legitimately retarded or just a troll. I lean towards teenager/socially isolated twentysomething just trying to be edgy on the Internet.

 

[snailslime]

Oh but what happened to all that spiel about how a child needs a bunch of gibs and welfare so they won't have a hard life? All of a sudden finances don't matter anymore and it's all just a matter of who has to physically carry the baby? How convenient.

They do, therefore the least a man can do to be helpful is provide financial aid. It's not that hard to comprehend unless you're a sped.

We've been over this exact talking point, in which you yourself posted that the definition of "human being" includes "human child." Like I keep saying, you're either legitimately retarded or just a troll. I lean towards teenager/socially isolated twentysomething just trying to be edgy on the Internet.

A fetus isn't a child. Try again.

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

So you are very concerned with a woman's financial ability to provide for a child and believe she should be able to choose not to have that responsibility, but that this does not apply to men at all and that men can be "forced" to provide for children regardless of how they feel about it. Interesting. Well, not really, it's actually a very typical and predictable NPC viewpoint, but y'know. Funny how hard abortionists try to pin "hypocrisy" on their opposition when it's so easy to reveal this genuine hypocrisy in them.

There is a huge difference between abortion and actual child neglect retard.

 

[gang weeder]

There is a huge difference between abortion and actual child neglect retard.

But bro, I was literally forced to breed and didn't have a choice. So why should I be financially responsible for something that I had no choice in? Sounds like you want men to be indentured servants to me. Checkmate, misandrist.

Oh wait wait wait. I've got a great line for this. "If you say you're pro-choice, you have to be pro-choice for men as well, not just for women. Otherwise you're a hypocrite and you're not actually pro-choice." That sounds about right.

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

But bro, I was literally forced to breed and didn't have a choice. So why should I be financially responsible for something that I had no choice in? Sounds like you want men to be indentured servants to me. Checkmate, misandrist.

You got a chick pregnant ( well not literally you since we know you don’t get laid) and forced her to have the baby now if you aren’t going to put it up for adoption it’s you’re responsibility to care for it deadbeat.

If you didn’t want the baby you should have aborted it before it actually developed into a human being.

You are trying to make some sort of GOTCHA point cause you can’t actually argue anything I said.

 

[Hotter Shoeonhead.]

Oh wait wait wait. I've got a great line for this. "If you say you're pro-choice, you have to be pro-choice for men as well, not just for women. Otherwise you're a hypocrite and you're not actually pro-choice."

Except I am I think everyone should have the right to choice what to do with their body.

Neglecting an actual child is multitudes worse then abortion.

 

[snailslime]

But bro, I was literally forced to breed and didn't have a choice. So why should I be financially responsible for something that I had no choice in? Sounds like you want men to be indentured servants to me. Checkmate, misandrist.

Boo hoo, consequences for shoving my dick everywhere is MISANDRY!

Oh wait wait wait. I've got a great line for this. "If you say you're pro-choice, you have to be pro-choice for men as well, not just for women. Otherwise you're a hypocrite and you're not actually pro-choice." That sounds about right.

Men don't have to deal with 9 months of the misery of pregnancy.