The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

In my opinion, it is not worthwhile to discuss Christianity with atheists who hate Christianity and only ever speak about it in bad faith. This is one reason why I have not once referenced Christianity, faith, scripture, or anything else religious to support any of my arguments in this thread.
Okay then shut up lol

"All life is not the same. Infants are alive, they do not get the same consideration as adult humans. It is therefore permissible for a mother to smother her infant in the crib if she decides that she doesn't want it after all."

Yeah you're totally taking what I'm saying in good faith. No one said "therefore you have an unlimited right to kill", just that there are different factors to weigh. We put a price on human life all the time, it's silly to pretend that society is built on the idea that it's inviolable and that it's unheard of to suggest putting something ahead of it within a certain situation.
 
The difference between this contract and other contracts is that you're still around afterwards to contest it if someone is fucking you over.
Yeah good job ignoring everything else I said. There is absolutely a safe way to do this, to get it to a point where anyone who is committed enough to doing it against the patient's will would already be committed enough to just murder them under the current system.

Euthanasia happens every day, I know someone who had the nurses (illegally) finish off her mother. This would just allow it to be cleaner and more deliberate, not put elders in a position of having to choose between suffering out their final days when they don't want to, and making their surviving family risk getting caught and going to prison. The current law only discourages responsible people who give a shit about rules from handling this, and does nothing to stop impulsive retards and psychos.
 
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Utter, complete rubbish. All totally false equivalences. Incredibly big brain false equivalences at that. Your entire argument is based on the absurd concept that children and by extension the unborn are denied rights because they don't deserve them, which is blatantly false and completely excises the role of empathy. You either don't have children of your own, had an awful childhood, or are just a terrifyingly detached narcissist if you sincerely hold these views.

Children are a privileged class in society. They have more rights than adults do. They receive numerous kinds of positive discrimination due to their fundamental innocence and lack of development. The only times they are not allowed to do certain things or have certain things is because they are not yet ready for them mentally. This exact same argument could just as easily be used to argue for the removal of age of consent laws, as it attacks the same precepts that those twisted ideas do.
Your argument here is completely wrong. Children are not a privileged class in society; they're a dependent class, and it is because of their dependence upon adults that we do not grant them the same legal rights as adults. I'm not sure how this observation is supposed to excise empathy from the consideration; it's just a fact. It is possible to have empathy for children while also recognizing that extending certain rights to them would be inappropriate; you know, like the right to enter into a legal contract on their own behalf, the right to live independently, the right to get married, etc?

How you could possibly conclude that this recognition is some sort of slippery slope towards the abolition of age of consent laws I do not know. On the contrary: it supports precisely the opposite view.
In fact, your argument contradicts itself. Since children are a privileged class whom adults go out of their way to protect and shield from harm, then the unborn should be even more protected. Your comparison regarding the right to life of a coma patient is equally ludicrous on multiple counts.

First of all, every person has the right to choose in advance how they will be treated in that very situation. I carry around a card with me that states I am fine with my life support being terminated if there is no realistic chance of me regaining consciousness in the event of an accident. Others have a different stance based on their informed beliefs. These rights have been successfully defended in a court of law multiple times.
Others may have different beliefs, but the fact remains that we still have plenty of cases where doctors have managed to win appeals from judges to have life support removed from patients who had no hope of regaining consciousness, and in the absence of any prior preferences being made known by the patient, it is often up to families to choose on their behalf, and frequently, this results in them pulling the plug.

Ask yourself this: if the availability of a hospital bed (or even, just the financial convenience of the next of kin) is able to take precedence over the life of a comatose patient, then what does that tell you about our already established limitations to the right to life, specifically with respect to consciousness?
A certain person on Youtube who I greatly respect has a saying; 'do not accept the premise of an asshole.' So instead of accepting your premise, I'll ask you defend yourself. Why shouldn't the right of an innocent being come before the rights of a guilty person? We've already established in this thread that well over 90% of all abortions are elective, so why should a convenience supplant the fundamental rights of a person to have a chance at a healthy life? You can reasonably argue that abortion might be acceptable in rape cases, but again, those are such a minuscule number that it barely even qualifies as a statistic. We already have birth control that is so effective it works 99.9% of the time, even before compounding methods together. Why should women be allowed to simply disregard the rights of the life they knowingly, deliberately created by intentionally failing to take advantage of the incredibly common, publicly accessible and readily available methods of contraception available in our society?
A guilty person? What is a woman who elects to have an abortion supposed to be guilty of? Personal irresponsibility? Forgetting to use birth control? Because last I checked, neither of those are crimes.

The issue at hand here, is the question of which side the law is supposed to take when the right to life and the right to bodily integrity come into conflict with one another, and the problem for your position, is that the precedent has already been firmly set in the opposite direction.

I could provide many examples and thought experiments to illustrate this point, but for the sake of brevity, I'll limit myself for now to the famous case of McFall v. Shimp, wherein, it was established that a man couldn't be legally compelled to donate his bone marrow to his cousin, even though there was a high likelihood that his cousin would die without it (he did, just a couple of weeks later). What this case clearly illustrates, like many others I could mention, is that one person's right to life does not take precedence over another person's right to bodily integrity, and without having to state the implications that this has for abortion, I should remind you that this case involved two, fully sapient adults; not something along the lines of an embryo or a fetus, who's claims of personhood are dubious at best.
"then we can logically say that a fetus has no right to life, can we not?" No, because under your logic a fetus (barring catastrophic circumstances) has a future capacity for consciousness because it will do so at some point. If we knew for a fact someone in a coma was going to become conscious again after say 10 months, would it be ok to unplug them now?
The difference is that a comatose patient was once conscious, and may have had wishes which ought to be respected. A fetus never did, so they are not tangibly losing anything in a way that they would ever have been able to recognize.
For the five billionth time: "right to life applies only to those with consciousness" precludes infants. I'm not aware of "consciousness" being used as some kind of qualifier anywhere in any actual laws, since you are trying (very poorly) to go for some sort of legal angle.
In what way does an infant lack the capacity for consciousness?
There is no legal precedent for a right to abortion. Other than Roe v Wade I guess, which is going to go bye-bye any day now.
There is a legal precedent that one person's right to life does not come before another person's right to bodily integrity, and it is this precedent which causes the legal basis of your argument to completely unravel.
 
No one can police people's sexual behavior. People are going to 'do it' no matter what.
Want to bet on that? Maybe go to Russia or something.

Also the whole point is not whether it's possible or not, it's whether that behaviour should be encouraged or not and I say we have enough sex pests and perverts in the world, we don't need more of 'em.
This is one reason why I have not once referenced Christianity, faith, scripture, or anything else religious to support any of my arguments in this thread.
And thank god you didn't.
In my opinion, it is not worthwhile to discuss Christianity with atheists who hate Christianity and only ever speak about it in bad faith.
You say this, but every single one of your points are Christian sperging and this could be deduced very easily.

BTW I've not heard you make a single factual statement that isn't some form of fundamentalism or moralfagging.

Fucking tiresome, I mostly identify with the pro-life crowd because I'm mostly against abortion and then it turns out the pro-lifers are all sycophantic fundamentalists. Just get yourself a real argument that doesn't stem from your religious beliefs for fuck's sake.
 
What's the exception then, and why?


Literally every person who disagrees with you is instantly a boomer incel, those terms are becoming meaningless like Nazi. Maybe instead of labeling everyone else as being boomer Nazi incel retards, you should do some introspection.


Facts don't care about your feelings, first of all. But feelings are the core issue here. You "feel" punished, but literally nobody cares if you fuck yourself to absolute death as long as you simply use contraceptives. They're cheap or free and readily available, and the myth of their failure is bullshit because proper usage makes that risk literally negligible.

What's funny is we hear from the same people who refuse to use contraceptives that sex ed is important, but what the fuck is the point if you're just going to discard everything taught anyway? I'm sure you support sex ed so I'd love to hear how you can argue both ways, like this:
the fact is that abortion is based and you're a faggot. your mom should've aborted you
 
Fucking tiresome, I mostly identify with the pro-life group because I'm mostly against abortion and then it turns out the pro-lifers are all sycophantic fundamentalists. Just get yourself a real argument that doesn't stem from your religious beliefs for fuck's sake.
In truth, there isn't one. This is a point from religious people that I acknowledge, that without religion all morality is ultimately just a bunch of situational declarations that you can throw away when inconvenient (though I maintain that most of them treat their religion like this, anyway). Any pro-life argument without religion is ultimately just "umm sweetie wouldn't it be more Logically Consistent (tm) to be against abortion if you took a general societal rule of thumb about not killing people to be entirely literal and inviolable??", and becomes completely insignificant when faced with a practical situation where abortion objectively benefits the human beings around you.

I think there is still a meaningful discussion to be had about late term abortions but that's about it, the practical factors are just too clear in favor of allowing it otherwise.
 
I wanted to mention that the U.S has an obesity issue. And no it's not a dig but a fact. It's estimated that one hundred million people in the United States are overweight to obese.

This is where it gets complicated for women who are over weight. If you're over 175 pounds the chance of the ''pill'' failing is substantial. Not only that but the morning after pill has a high failure for women over that specific weight as well as the abortion pill. Obese women looking for abortion are often told by providers to get the surgical procedure over the abortion pill as it typically doesn't work when you're obese.

Not only that but obese women tend to skip periods as quite a few have hormonal problems. They find out they're pregnant much later than thin women and their chance of pregnancy complications as well as their own mortality is quite high.

As many fat jokes get thrown around on this site I have to say I really fear for the lives of these obese women after this upcoming supreme court ruling. As I mentioned pregnancy prevention methods for them are much, much less effective. This is now the time to get healthy more than ever before.
:story:

Well that is at least a novel angle.

Gonna start blocking women in these threads and watch my experience quality on this site skyrocket.
 
This is what they're pretending to care about

Screenshot_20220401-030142_Chrome.jpg
 
Yeah good job ignoring everything else I said. There is absolutely a safe way to do this, to get it to a point where anyone who is committed enough to doing it against the patient's will would already be committed enough to just murder them under the current system.

Euthanasia happens every day, I know someone who had the nurses (illegally) finish off her mother. This would just allow it to be cleaner and more deliberate, not put elders in a position of having to choose between suffering out their final days when they don't want to, and making their surviving family risk getting caught and going to prison. The current law only discourages responsible people who give a shit about rules from handling this, and does nothing to stop impulsive retards and psychos.
I do not care about the patients. I do not care about the families. What they suffer with and what they do is none of my business. What matters is the criminal. It must be real fucking nice to have never dealt with a criminal, to never be the victim of a crime and to think from on high that it's not a big deal if people want to settle things amicably with regulation and other shit.

There should be no crime in society. Zero. Anything more than that will only make society worse.
 
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Any pro-life argument without religion is ultimately just "umm sweetie wouldn't it be more Logically Consistent (tm) to be against abortion if you took a general societal rule of thumb about not killing people to be entirely literal and inviolable??", and becomes completely insignificant when faced with a practical situation where abortion objectively benefits the human beings around you.
Firstly, there's the cost of abortions. Not only they're costly, but they go without any revenue out of it. Also yeah I know, while there's also a cost to have a kid, the kid will eventually grow up to make revenue for himself and help run the economy which is a net positive. That's also demonstrated by mass immigration, all the refugees took all the jobs nobody wanted, but that are still important for a working civilisation.

Secondly, the procedure of abortion can be painful and traumatising for the woman if not performed correctly or if it goes wrong for any other reason. Also apparently they can even kill those women https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043456/. It's safer to carry a pregancy to term and give up the baby for adoption.

Thirdly, abortion is partly to blame for depopulation on a worldwide scale and while this may not seem significant at first due to being overpopulated I think that if it goes unchecked for too long it may have negative impacts on all of us in the long run.

Fourthly, what if the fetus grows up to find a cure to cancer (Ignore this one, it's more of a meme than a serious point.)


I don't know if it's enough to change your mind, but those are all the points that I can think of against abortion that isn't just Christian moralfagging.

The only time an abortion should be allowed is if the fetus threatens the woman's life or if the fetus has some genetic disease, I don't think any retard wants to be born and live a life where he would die if not supervised 24/7.

Other than that, I would support any campaign to discourage recreational sex, we wouldn't need abortions if people practised abstinence.
 
All life is not the same. Cells are alive, they do not get the same consideration as adult humans.

I am not categorically opposed to infanticide either, I think there are some rare situations where it is warranted. See the tard baby general, there are some babies who basically have no capacity for doing anything other than suffer. They should be painlessly put down, not doing so is cruel and vain. Their living and suffering serves no purpose for anyone other than their narcissistic parents, who get to virtue signal about it on facebook.
And there it is. Well, killing humans is okay if I don't consider them human, because you know, they're retarded. It's better for everyone if we consider the convenience of the parents, and the suffering we perceive the child to be enduring, than for us to allow things to develop on their own and just, you know, be parents.
 
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Firstly, there's the cost of abortions. Not only they're costly, but they go without any revenue out of it. Also yeah I know, while there's also a cost to have a kid, the kid will eventually grow up to make revenue for himself and help run the economy which is a net positive. That's also demonstrated by mass immigration, all the refugees took all the jobs nobody wanted, but that are still important for a working civilisation.

Secondly, the procedure of abortion can be painful and traumatising for the woman if not performed correctly or if it goes wrong for any other reason. Also apparently they can even kill those women https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043456/. It's safer to carry a pregancy to term and give up the baby for adoption.

Thirdly, abortion is partly to blame for depopulation on a worldwide scale and while this may not seem significant at first due to being overpopulated I think that if it goes unchecked for too long it may have negative impacts on all of us in the long run.

Fourthly, what if the fetus grows up to find a cure to cancer (Ignore this one, it's more of a meme than a serious point.)


I don't know if it's enough to change your mind, but those are all the points that I can think of against abortion that isn't just Christian moralfagging.

The only time an abortion should be allowed is if the fetus threatens the woman's life or if the fetus has some genetic disease, I don't think any retard wants to be born and live a life where he would die if not supervised 24/7.

Other than that, I would support any campaign to discourage recreational sex, we wouldn't need abortions if people practised abstinence.
Ok incel
 
And there it is. Well, killing humans is okay if I don't consider them human, because you know, they're retarded. It's better for everyone if we consider the convenience of the parents, and the suffering we perceive the child to be enduring, than for us to allow things to develop on their own and just, you know, be parents.
Abortion is the same as killing a parasite.

Firstly, there's the cost of abortions. Not only they're costly, but they go without any revenue out of it. Also yeah I know, while there's also a cost to have a kid, the kid will eventually grow up to make revenue for himself and help run the economy which is a net positive. That's also demonstrated by mass immigration, all the refugees took all the jobs nobody wanted, but that are still important for a working civilisation.
You make a lot of assumptions about the kid's future.
Secondly, the procedure of abortion can be painful and traumatising for the woman if not performed correctly or if it goes wrong for any other reason. Also apparently they can even kill those women https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043456/. It's safer to carry a pregancy to term and give up the baby for adoption.
You know what else can kill a woman? Carrying a fetus.
Thirdly, abortion is partly to blame for depopulation on a worldwide scale and while this may not seem significant at first due to being overpopulated I think that if it goes unchecked for too long it may have negative impacts on all of us in the long run.
Why do you care? How does it affect you? We're already overpopulated.

The only time an abortion should be allowed is if the fetus threatens the woman's life or if the fetus has some genetic disease, I don't think any retard wants to be born and live a life where he would die if not supervised 24/7.
Who are you to decide that?
Other than that, I would support any campaign to discourage recreational sex, we wouldn't need abortions if people practised abstinence.
cringe
 
Abortion is the same as killing a parasite.


You make a lot of assumptions about the kid's future.

You know what else can kill a woman? Carrying a fetus.

Why do you care? How does it affect you? We're already overpopulated.


Who are you to decide that?

cringe
Holy shit, the sex pest is having a field day.

Keep flailing like a retard.
 
Yeah you're totally taking what I'm saying in good faith. No one said "therefore you have an unlimited right to kill", just that there are different factors to weigh. We put a price on human life all the time, it's silly to pretend that society is built on the idea that it's inviolable and that it's unheard of to suggest putting something ahead of it within a certain situation.

I am following directly the implication of your own words:

"The (admittedly sloppy) answer I came up with is that I would put aborting a semi-developed fetus at a similar moral weight to euthanizing a newborn puppy. It has mammalian characteristics, it could likely grow up to be something cute and valuable, it can feel some pain, but it has very low sentience and doesn't have any 'quests' or relationships that you are cutting off early."

Explain to me why this argument can be used to justify killing a fetus but not a newborn infant.

You say this, but every single one of your points are Christian sperging and this could be deduced very easily.

BTW I've not heard you make a single factual statement that isn't some form of fundamentalism or moralfagging.

As I said in that very same post: I have not referenced Christianity, the Bible, God, or anything else along those lines to justify my beliefs at any point. It is not necessary, because every atheist (for the most part..... I guess we do have that one guy in here who straight up said he's fine with killing babies) also believes that killing children is wrong. My "moralfagging" amounts to simply repeating this position--that killing children is wrong--over and over again.

Is it? Is it really that simple? What happens in an ectopic pregnancy where the embryo implants in the fallopian tube due a chromosomal abnormality? Is that a human being when you can't even get a karyotype on it?

By calling them an "embryo," yes, you have admitted implicitly that we are speaking of a human being. I believe @Larry David's Opera Cape is probably better qualified to speak on the case of an ectopic pregnancy. But if we accept the implied premise here that the fetus is non-viable and must be aborted to save the mother's life, then you would have the only situation in which most pro-lifers would allow an abortion--since you are actually weighing a question of life against life, and given only one possible path in which either life survives. This does not mean that the aborted child was not a child, and that their demise isn't something to mourn. Additionally, some reading which you will doubtlessly ignore:

http://www.personhoodinitiative.com/ectopic-personhood.html

In truth, there isn't one. This is a point from religious people that I acknowledge, that without religion all morality is ultimately just a bunch of situational declarations that you can throw away when inconvenient (though I maintain that most of them treat their religion like this, anyway). Any pro-life argument without religion is ultimately just "umm sweetie wouldn't it be more Logically Consistent (tm) to be against abortion if you took a general societal rule of thumb about not killing people to be entirely literal and inviolable??", and becomes completely insignificant when faced with a practical situation where abortion objectively benefits the human beings around you.

I think there is still a meaningful discussion to be had about late term abortions but that's about it, the practical factors are just too clear in favor of allowing it otherwise.

It seems clear that you are an atheist. Despite this, I assume that you believe killing children is wrong. Not "just a situational declaration that you can throw away when inconvenient." Am I correct?

In what way does an infant lack the capacity for consciousness?

In what way does a fetus?

There is a legal precedent that one person's right to life does not come before another person's right to bodily integrity, and it is this precedent which causes the legal basis of your argument to completely unravel.

Where? Not even Roe v Wade claims this, so far as I am aware (since it does not recognize a fetus as a person, it sidesteps the issue of a "right to life" entirely, as is usual for pro-abortion stances).
 
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