Opinion Perspective: Where have all the good men gone? - Young men who are ready for committed relationships are in short supply compared to women

deseret.brightspotcdn.com.jpg
Illustration by Zoë Petersen, Deseret News

It’s a recurring lament we hear from women at the University of Virginia:

Where are the good guys? The guys interested in commitment, and the guys who have drive, ambition and purpose?


This is not to say that such men are entirely absent at U.Va., where we teach and attend school; they are just in short supply relative to the women with a clear focus on their future and interested in a serious relationship.


Take Cece, a rising senior: “The majority of the guys I’ve encountered at U.Va. don’t want to commit to an actual relationship. They haven’t grown up. They want to hook up with girls, but that’s it. Many of my friends and I are frustrated with the lack of maturity our guy friends exemplify. My parents met in college, which was common among their generation, and are about to celebrate their 30th anniversary. Meanwhile, I have one year left at U.Va. and don’t foresee myself dating anyone.”

The relationship frustrations of women like these are rooted in a broader problem: They do not have a ready pool of good young men to date, partly because many of our nation’s young men are floundering as they make the transition from adolescence to young adulthood. This problem is visible in our schools, colleges and universities, and today’s marketplace. Young men are increasingly less likely than women to enroll in college and less likely than women to apply themselves even if they land in college; a growing number of them are also idle or underemployed as they move through their 20s.

Our “young men problem” is rooted in a range of factors — the rise of electronic opiates, which distract young men from education and work and have come to replace traditional avenues of social relations; the absence of models of pro-social masculinity that furnish norms for male engagement in school, work and relationships as they move into adulthood; a culture that discounts commitment; and biological differences in rates of male and female maturation.


But a new report from the Institute for Family Studies, “Life Without Father,” suggests that another issue is in play. Too many boys have grown up in homes without engaged or present fathers, which has left them especially unprepared to navigate school, work and relationships successfully.

Too few good men​


Here at U.Va., one of the signs of the young man problem is that they are, simply, absent from “Grounds,” our word for campus. At our university, women outnumber men 56 to 44. Nationally, it is worse: there are almost 60 women for every 40 men. Across the country, this means that a large minority of heterosexual women cannot find any men to date on their college campuses.


And even when it comes to the men who are in college, female students are often disappointed with the quality of the guys they find, even at the University of Virginia. “Sometimes it is just very frustrating to me when I want to tell a guy I know who is living his life in some sort of unsatisfactory way,” said Isabela, a junior. “I have to hold myself back from being like, ‘What are you doing? The way that you’re living is contributing to your unhappiness.’”


“I would say the qualities of guys I generally come across are not necessarily guys I would date,” said Claire, also a junior. Claire has noticed, at least in the School of Architecture, that “the girls seem to be driven and just focused on academics … a little more serious about it (than guys).”

Tommy, a rising senior, attests that “girls are much more focused and deliberate and sincere about their work than most of the guys that I know.” He sees a kind of “prolonged adolescence” in many of the men at U.Va.

This notion of prolonged adolescence is not simply anecdotal, but a central concern of researchers who study young men. In his book “Guyland”, sociologist Michael Kimmel described it this way:

“In another era, these guys would undoubtedly be poised to take their place in the adult world, taking the first steps toward becoming the nation’s future professional, entrepreneurs and business leaders. They would be engaged to be married, thinking about settling down with a family, preparing for futures as civic leaders and Little League dads. Not today. Today, many of these young men, poised between adolescence and adulthood, are more likely to feel anxious and uncertain. In college, they party hard but are soft on studying. … After graduation, they drift aimlessly from one dead-end job to another, spend more time online playing video games and gambling than they do on dates. …”

These observations are borne out by trends in academic performance and on-time graduation. Women have attained consistently higher GPAs than their male peers, per a study examining the GPAs of students at select Florida and Texas universities which showed average GPAs of 2.67 and 2.85 for men and women respectively. Fewer of the men who attend college end up graduating than women — with 50% of women graduating “on time” compared to just 40% of men, according to a recent report in The Wall Street Journal.

This pattern extends beyond college into the 20-something years. “I would say they’re not as serious about their work as men were several decades ago,” observed Holly, a recent U.Va. graduate. This was one part of her frustration with dating prospects, along with their “lack of relational skills.” In line with her comment, a growing share of young men are out of the labor force. Between 1999 and 2018, the employment rate for young men fell by 10.4 percentage points — almost double that of young women.


Fathers and friends​


Part of this problem is attributable to the shifting character of family life in America. We know that children with absent fathers are less likely to thrive on a variety of measures of academic, professional and social success. Even for those with present fathers, like many here at U.Va., many young men have not been given clear guidance from their dads about how to navigate relationships and develop a clear identity as a man. While today’s fathers are better equipped to help their children navigate school and work, they are less adept when it comes to preparing young men for dating, relationships and marriage.

“These people are ill-fathered,” Tommy observed, “and they don’t have the right moral fiber that would lead them to use that freedom well, so they become idle and complacent, and they don’t really feel challenged, and they feel bored.”

More than anything, this growing body of directionless men indicates that the institutions which used to give shape and meaning to their lives are not as powerful as they once were. Churches, schools and even families are less likely to give clear and compelling guidance to young men as they prepare for adulthood. They’re also competing with influences — from gaming to social media — that push young men away from adulthood and toward prolonged adolescence.


“To me it seems like they’re floundering, but I know there’s more that goes on,” Catherine, a recent graduate, said. “Men are lacking the resources to deal with a lot of other things, and whether they have the strength to reject acting that way probably does come from how they were raised … but what really perpetuates it is their peers, and a society of boys doing the exact same thing.”

The observations of these students are borne out by the new Institute for Family Studies report. Our “young men problem” is especially common among those raised apart from their biological fathers. These young men are disproportionately more likely to flounder in school and less likely to graduate from college. Of those whose fathers were present, 35% graduated from college; this was true for only 14% among young men raised apart from their fathers.


Those with absent fathers were also almost twice as likely to be idle in their 20s.


A considerable 19% of young men with absent fathers are idle in their 20s, neither working or in school, compared to only 11% of those with present fathers. Such men are especially unlikely to be good prospects for dating, mating and marriage for today’s young women.

If we wish to revive the fortunes of today’s young men, we must help fathers teach their sons how to prepare better for adulthood, relationships and marriage. And we must also revive our most fundamental bond, marriage, because it connects men to their sons in a way nothing else does. These steps matter, not just for renewing the fortunes of young men, but also for the sake of the women looking for good partners to love, marry and start families with in the future.

Brad Wilcox is director of the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia and The Future of Freedom fellow at the Institute for Family Studies. Emma Fuentes is an undergraduate studying English at the University of Virginia. Michael Krieger is a Ph.D. candidate in the Department of Sociology at the University of Virginia.

Article Link (Archive)
 
Lol, those same women who find it annoying to be approached by men, complain when men don't approach them!
It's a humblebrag. "Ugh, why do these boys keep hitting on me?! Stop it, stupid boys!"

They don't even know that's what they're doing, but it IS what they're doing. "I'm so high value I hate male attention in general because most guys aren't good enough for me. Where are all the men good enough for me?"

Most women aren't like this, though. Just make an effort to talk to women you find attractive and be genuine and you'll be fine unless you're trying to talk to them about My Little Pony or some autistic shit. Odds are you will be rejected multiple times before you hit pay dirt, but you just have to learn to live with that. Rejection is evidence you're involved in the process of eventually finding a hit. Thank her for not wasting your time, roll your eyes at whatever her standards are, and move on.
 
Most women aren't like this, though. Just make an effort to talk to women you find attractive and be genuine and you'll be fine unless you're trying to talk to them about My Little Pony or some autistic shit.
wrong... i once picked up a nice piece of ass by talking about why trains have problems going up hill. just wear a skinny jeans...
 
Good news for the negress with the 187-bullet point checklist who didn't want to date first responders! There ARE plenty of men who fit her description. The bad news is, they're all GAY. Yes, even the men she says she's dating. All. Gay.

The type of woman that men fuck is different from the type that they'll marry. Men don't want a legspreader with a fancy degree from ManHater University. They don't want to marry a woman who plans on settling down when she's 38 and who needs a man to be an accessory to her fabulous life. They don't want a woman who will pawn off her child-rearing duties to some BPD with an in-home daycare who pretty much sucks in all of the money the woman is making at her make-work day job. It sucks for men because women are pretty much taught that if they're not wine-momming it up at some corporation while their children are being raised by some total stranger, they completely fail as women.
 
It's either giving up, or embracing the manwhore life (maybe for a little while) and taking advantage of their age gap mainly, since plenty of thots out there see professional men in their 30s as a skewed paternal figure.

This is how older dudes can bang as many broads as they want, in a short period of time - cash in on daddy issues.
Also professional/successful 40 something men. I think for men who play their cards right the 40's are the most prime decade because so much comes to fruit at the same time.
 
What actually is it that men expect from women?

Its a meme now about "high value males" and everything a woman apparently requires in a man, but men seem to have equally high expectations and desires.

Its not just "not being a whore" - what is a whore? How many men is too many? Whats the appropriate clothes and amount of makeup?

Honestly, I already know the responses but let's go with the neg ratings
 
Lol there are good men out there but it requires some sifting to find ones that are serious and have goals.
"Goals" needs to be defined in all of this because from all the bitching in these articles focusing on "goals" seems to translate to GET MONEY! and not much else. They never talk about happiness or actual self-fulfillment for the guy, he only needs goals because that imaginary dream house won't pay for itself.
 
"The 'good men' have managed, by divine providence, to find women who are at least capable of using an Easy-Bake oven."

What actually is it that men expect from women?
not getting stabbed

to death

Its not just "not being a whore" - what is a whore? How many men is too many?
If you have to ask...

Whats the appropriate clothes
I shouldn't be able to see that you're not wearing a bra. Also, wear a bra.

and amount of makeup?
Absolutely none, I'm not into clown play.
 
Its not just "not being a whore" - what is a whore? How many men is too many? Whats the appropriate clothes and amount of makeup?
you need to read the koran my brother...


Hey, autistic pussy is still pussy 👍🏼
woman dont listen to you anyway. just make them think you made a funny remark and make them look at your bulge while looking for your lighter.
they also like rebels, take out your pack of fags in a no smoking area, give her one, light it and run through the night with her after beeing kicked out.
people always overestimate the brainpower of woman...
 
Its not just "not being a whore" - what is a whore? How many men is too many? Whats the appropriate clothes and amount of makeup?
A whore is a woman who has ever been in on a one night stand or thinks such events are normal and has had many of them. A whore is a woman who has slept with multiple men at once or cheated on her boyfriend.
As for how many men is too many, I hesitate to say because at this point all the confessions I've seen of women are fucking horrifying, but over 10 men.

As for clothes, none of that yoga pants cleavage window shit. I'm sick and tired of it. You all look the same vein of trashy filth. Makeup? Immediate disqualification for me. I know what you can do with those lies. You should be comfortable in your own skin.
 
Its not just "not being a whore" - what is a whore? How many men is too many? Whats the appropriate clothes and amount of makeup?

Honestly, I already know the responses but let's go with the neg ratings
We don't care as much as women think we do about clothes and makeup. But keep in mind we also don't know why you look as nice as you do because we don't think about that stuff. An attractive woman is attractive with or without makeup. Is she more attractive with makeup? Often, yes. But it's not as essential for men as women think. You will have a hard time avoiding our attention if we find you attractive.

"How many men is too many?" The answer is different for every guy, but a general rule of thumb: "women want to be the one he settles down for; men want to be the one she loosens her sexual morals for."

So, generally, a lower number of men than the other women (options) around you. And if you're bed-hopping instead of seeking meaningful relationships, you aren't going to be seen as stable girlfriend/wife material for anyone but the most desperate loser guy, probably someone with a weird humiliation fetish. Or some other winner of a man who feels he can't judge you because he's been acting similarly. Promiscuity just isn't attractive. (It can be hot, but it isn't attractive for serious relationships.) In contrast, modesty (not a neurotic obsession with absolute purity, modesty... you can be modest and very sexy) generally is attractive. Especially when the other women around you aren't being modest.

(Note: you can ALWAYS find a guy who will tell you any of this isn't true. The odds are very, very high he's simply trying to get laid. He may not even know that about himself.)

Your collective grandmothers were right. Men feel a primal "like" of women who are open to casual sex, but they don't want to fucking marry them. The sense of excitement and attraction disappears and turns into revulsion the second the "fun" girl expresses any desire for him to stick around and be serious with her. And it doesn't matter what women (or men) think about that. It's a result of two different male evolutionary mating strategies. (And casual sex used to be incredibly rare until very recently in human history.) We will not ignore fundamental evolutionary wiring because we're yelled at. We'll just find a woman who isn't as difficult to deal with.

Women are and should be free to sleep with whoever they want. But they will not be free of judgement for their behavior, male or female judgment. Everyone knows this. Being mad about it is pointless.
 
So let me get this straight.

Third level attendance and completion by men is falling year on year.

Men's income relative to women in the z cohort post college is on average lower as a direct result.

Men are increasingly directionless and depressed as evidenced in ever increasing depression, suicide and substance abuse.

However.

Women most affected?
Yes, it's always been this way and likely always will due to how we evolved. It would be tolerable if they were at least aware of it, but they will only rely on biology when it suits their arguments, points of view, and feelings.

I know it's hard to hear and seemingly insane to, but a lot of women don't actually believe in anything. She will say she is traditional, but she expects to be pampered while she still has a job of her own. She will pretend to be righteous, but she is only standing because other people are. She will say she rules the world but take offense and feign ignorance when it goes astray.

Maybe it's just the modern demoralization and women are more susceptible to it, but Jesus Christ, the amount of them affected is inexcusable.
 
Last edited:
What actually is it that men expect from women?

Its a meme now about "high value males" and everything a woman apparently requires in a man, but men seem to have equally high expectations and desires.

Its not just "not being a whore" - what is a whore? How many men is too many? Whats the appropriate clothes and amount of makeup?

Honestly, I already know the responses but let's go with the neg ratings
Men absolutely have higher standards for women than they're willing to admit. It's pretty much assumed that the woman shaves her legs and/or wears makeup, for example. Women may prefer a six pack but there are more flabby dudes with gorgeous women than gorgeous dudes with chubby girls. Incidentally 'No fat chicks' rules out 60% of the American female population. And lest American men complain about that statistic its worth pointing out men have comparable rates of overweightness and obesity despite never bearing children and disproportionately working in physically demanding jobs.
Men pushed for casual dating much harder than women did back in the 1960s and then got all surprisedpikachu.jpg when women eventually got the upper hand thanks to the internet and a lower sex drive. And even now swiping right on tinder costs absolutely nothing; the number of men willing to actually date an ugly and/or mentally ill woman is comparably low and most of the time these men are themselves hideous and unstable.
Ultimately the average American woman is increasingly lazy, selfish, entitled, hedonistic, and neurotic. She has accumulated a massive amount of baggage that predisposes her to being a terrible long term partner. She is in short precisely what the average American man deserves.
 
Men pushed for casual dating much harder than women did back in the 1960s and then got all surprisedpikachu.jpg when women eventually got the upper hand thanks to the internet and a lower sex drive.
Were you actually alive during these times to provide any anecdotal evidence to your claim to even make us slightly inclined to believe you?
Ultimately the average American woman is increasingly lazy, selfish, entitled, hedonistic, and neurotic. She has accumulated a massive amount of baggage that predisposes her to being a terrible long term partner. She is in short precisely what the average American man deserves.
You didn't ascribe those traits to the male side, which makes it extremely skewed one way and unfair for them.
 
Back