Fallout series

[Sallet Lad Jim]

NV still pissed me off with how railroady it was in terms of where you could go. You had basically one path you could feasibly take until a good ten levels in or so. Fallout 3 had a helluva lot more - sure, plot was shitty, but I've finished a grand total of one Bethesda rpg out of all the ones I've played. And that was Fallout 4.

 

[Watcher]

The major problem of Fallout 3 is that New Vegas came out afterwards.

It was GOTY when it came out and it was absolutely fantastic. Sure there were flaws and the game has aged but it also came out nearly 10 years ago. A lot of the whining about Fallout 3 is revisionism from people who played hundreds of hours in the first place.

I don't actually hate Fallout 3. But at the time when it came out I really had this feeling that the game could've been better. And that it was something mods wouldn't be able to fix.

Then New Vegas came out and fixed everything

NV still pissed me off with how railroady it was in terms of where you could go. You had basically one path you could feasibly take until a good ten levels in or so. Fallout 3 had a helluva lot more - sure, plot was shitty, but I've finished a grand total of one Bethesda rpg out of all the ones I've played. And that was Fallout 4.

This isn't correct.

In Fallout New Vegas you can go anywhere you want, you can even proceed north up to New Vegas right from the start and skip the entire first 3rd of the game. Almost all speedruns do this. It's just very challenging to do because it's infested with Cazadores and Deathclaws And even when you get to New Vegas there are several ways you can enter the town, and several ways you can approach obtaining the Platinum chip you need to further the story. By comparison in Fallout 3 it give you the illusion that there's variety to the story but in actuality you're doing the same quests in the same way each time and usually a speech check just lets you bypass having to shoot dudes.

Not to mention the entire second half of the game is entirely open ended, you're given the option to choose which faction to side with, which drastically changes what quests you go on (compare a Legion playthrough with an NCR playthrough and several quests are almost reversed in design, the entire climax is different etc), and most of the quests can be tackled in any order and take you all across the map.

In Fallout 3 you could go conceivably anywhere but this didn't lead to quality game design. Most rpgs are designed in such a way that challenging areas are open to you at the start so you can go back and lay waste to them when you're stronger. I linked a video earlier in this thread where someone specifically points out at the start in STALKER you can optionally assault a military base close to the start of the game and it's intensely challenging but intensely satisfying to do.

In Fallout 3 there's very few instances of this occurring, where the content actually ramps up and you go "I should come back later when I'm stronger". I can only think of a handful of moments and right now the only one that comes to mind is Old Olney. It's why there is an extremely popular mod called Fallout 3 Wanderers edition that is specifically designed to balance the game in such a way that the second half of the game is actually challenging where you don't feel like the terminator.

It's why it's not surprising the majority of players when they play Fallout 3 and especially when they replay it, they completely ignore the story and instead do the more entertaining quests or just wander around the world like it's Grand Theft Auto. This isn't the case with New Vegas where the story is actually good and the quests are varied enough that it's worth replaying the story again.

The approach New Vegas took to game design was intentionally designed to pay homage to the original Fallout and Fallout 2. Wheras Fallout 3 was more akin to Oblivion. Which had a similar problem where the storyline and characters were garbage and the majority of players ignore it.

 

[Trans Fat 41g]

I liked how the major routes connected in Fallout New Vegas, and major settlements like Nelson and Forlorn Hope are just tucked away enough to peak your curiosity.

 

[Sallet Lad Jim]

In Fallout New Vegas you can go anywhere you want, you can even proceed north up to New Vegas right from the start and skip the entire first 3rd of the game. Almost all speedruns do this. It's just very challenging to do because it's infested with Cazadores and Deathclaws

When you're a new player, no way in hell are you going that way. Not for a good few playthroughs was I confident to go that way, and that pissed me off because Primm gets tiring fast. I'm more a fan of open world maps actually providing choice in where to start, as otherwise, it's an over-long tutorial.

I dunno, I just didn't like NV anywhere near as much, and it got way more stale way quicker for me. I suppose I'm just too fond of lots of urban stuff, and I know I'm not fond of the whole cowboy theme they had going on.

Didn't help that I thought all the factions were full of twats, and that the only reason I chose who I did is because they had the best armour.

Also probably doesn't help at all that I thought that fallout 1 and 2 were completely boring drek. Good story or no, I found them about as engaging as watching paint dry.

 

[Burned Man]

When you're a new player, no way in hell are you going that way. Not for a good few playthroughs was I confident to go that way, and that pissed me off because Primm gets tiring fast. I'm more a fan of open world maps actually providing choice in where to start, as otherwise, it's an over-long tutorial.

I dunno, I just didn't like NV anywhere near as much, and it got way more stale way quicker for me. I suppose I'm just too fond of lots of urban stuff, and I know I'm not fond of the whole cowboy theme they had going on.

Didn't help that I thought all the factions were full of twats, and that the only reason I chose who I did is because they had the best armour.

Also probably doesn't help at all that I thought that fallout 1 and 2 were completely boring drek. Good story or no, I found them about as engaging as watching paint dry.

My first playthrough I ran through Sloan and the deathclaws. It took a couple of tries before I got to the Vegas outskirts where I was promptly vaporized by fiends. I decided to just follow the path east instead.

I prefer the method New Vegas took compared to 3 in terms of enemy difficulty. I'm not very fond of enemies level scaling.

 

[Watcher]

When you're a new player, no way in hell are you going that way. Not for a good few playthroughs was I confident to go that way, and that pissed me off because Primm gets tiring fast. I'm more a fan of open world maps actually providing choice in where to start, as otherwise, it's an over-long tutorial.

I dunno, I just didn't like NV anywhere near as much, and it got way more stale way quicker for me. I suppose I'm just too fond of lots of urban stuff, and I know I'm not fond of the whole cowboy theme they had going on.

Didn't help that I thought all the factions were full of twats, and that the only reason I chose who I did is because they had the best armour.

Also probably doesn't help at all that I thought that fallout 1 and 2 were completely boring drek. Good story or no, I found them about as engaging as watching paint dry.

There's a difference between the game telling you "you need to go here, you should probably go there through here". And "you have to go this way". Bare in mind that going to Primm is entirely optional, as is Novac, Nipton, the entire I-15 and everything else. You can cut through all of that to go to Black Mountain and head either to New Vegas or Camp Searchlight. The game does give you lots of options.

It's very odd you complain about Fallout New Vegas having an "over-long tutorial" when Fallout 3 literally starts with an hour long tutorial where nothing happens and you're literally railroaded through a story segment and a tutorial where you do basic functions like pointing a gun and shooting it. A segment most people mod out of the game upon replaying it. Wheras in New Vegas you can literally just go to the titular city from the start just by walking there and avoiding the deathclaws.

Something that makes New Vegas more interesting is going to New Vegas first and then going back to the earlier areas. Because things change in those earlier areas if you do that. A good example is if you murder Vulpes Inculta when you meet him again on the New Vegas Strip, and then head to Nipton another character appears there and conducts the lottery, and remarks on what you did. He also even gives you additional conversation options if you do that. It's a game filled with little options like that since literally all of the npcs in the world are killable, and even if you murder every single one you can still complete it. In Fallout 3 even if you shoot your father in the head he remarks with the same "don't do that again" he gives if you admit to blowing up Megaton to him.

The best armors in the game in vanilla are power armor, which requires doing a series of lengthy sidequests for the Brotherhood of Steel or one of your companions to obtain. I don't understand how any of the factions are twats considering you can debate with Caesar over whether democracy can function in a post apocalyptic society. And similarly join up with him which delivers a vastly different endgame to the rest of the other factions.

I can sort of understand not enjoying Fallout 1 or 2 since neither are action games but in terms of storytelling and pacing, you'd be hard pressed to find another video game that rivals either in terms of quality.

 

[Sallet Lad Jim]

It's very odd you complain about Fallout New Vegas having an "over-long tutorial" when Fallout 3 literally starts with an hour long tutorial where nothing happens and you're literally railroaded through a story segment and a tutorial where you do basic functions like pointing a gun and shooting it.

I just avoided it by having a save right before I left the area and doing my character customization at the gate outside. Meant I only needed to do the tutorial once.

And I honestly did both main quests a grand total of once, and that was only up till the semi-final for each - NV's felt too impersonal for me to care, and I literally only picked a faction because the Veteran Ranger armour has the coolest helmet in game. 3's was drek, I won't argue that. Bethesda's writing is ass, but I enjoyed exploring 3 a lot more than NV, so that's part of the reason I like 3 more.

On the note of factions, I just didn't really like any of them. Caesar has slaves, and sure, it works, but I'd rather avoid his ass. NCR just was... kind of bland, honestly. Mr. House just irked me, and yes man makes me want to explode. I know they've all got a lot of depth, I just wasn't drawn in by any of them, so it was the rough equivalent of throwing a dart and picking whichever faction it hit. Again, picked NCR for the sweet armour. Took me an hour to kill the guy using it without alerting everyone nearby. Worth it, though.

I can sort of understand not enjoying Fallout 1 or 2 since neither are action games but in terms of storytelling and pacing, you'd be hard pressed to find another video game that rivals either in terms of quality.

I won't say they're bad games, because they're far too well liked to be bad, they just bored me to tears because they're far too slow for my preference, and I just couldn't find myself caring about the characters (which is sorta what happened with me and NV). If you like slower stuff that requires more thinking, and enjoy that sorta perspective, all the power to you. Just ain't my thing.

 

[vertexwindi]

I just avoided it by having a save right before I left the area and doing my character customization at the gate outside. Meant I only needed to do the tutorial once.

Having to do bypass the shitty tutorial like that doesn't exactly speak wonders about the game's design.

 

[DangerousGas]

The tutorial section in Fallout 3 at least attempts to come across as more organic, though: It's not a case of dumping you in an arena and saying 'mash X to kill stuff' - there's an active attempt to try and integrate it thematically with the story, and tie it in with the core NPCs that you're supposed to give a shit about.

I felt a bit more inclined to chase down the dad in FO3 than I did to follow the child in FO4, just because I had no interest in saving the oddly maggoty-looking Shaun. Parental instinct doesn't work in games if there's been no cultivation of it to start with: it's not like one of those pet-raising games where the player ploughs hours into feeding/raising/sperging over a glorified tamagotchi (and thus potentially building something approaching a sense of affection for it).

FO4 just did the whole 'this is your progeny, you must protect it, off you go' moment of exposition, and then rewards you with an awkward absence of fulfilment if you do elect to follow the main storyline.

NV had a much better overall polish on the game, but I really didn't give much of a toss about the story - the faction mechanics were good, although it was far too easy to be idolised by all but the major factions: it's as if they were looking for a messiah to rock up out of nowhere, which feels more than a little incongruous to play with.

The inclusion of the crafting system is a great thing in FO4, although I still maintain that there should be weapon degradation (albeit at a slower pace than NV's system) - having a lashed-up laser musket working perfectly in perpetuity is just plain weird, IMO.

 

[Sallet Lad Jim]

Having to do bypass the shitty tutorial like that doesn't exactly speak wonders about the game's design.

Still got me into fun gameplay faster than I got to in New Vegas. And at least the nuked town by the vault spurred my curiosity and sense of exploration, unlike Goodsprings, which spurred at least one playthrough where I basically leveled the place. Besides Doc Mitchell - he was chill, and his house had one of the best songs in game.

FO4 just did the whole 'this is your progeny, you must protect it, off you go' moment of exposition, and then rewards you with an awkward absence of fulfilment if you do elect to follow the main storyline.

I'll definitely agree on that. Beating Fallout 4 felt like an anti-climax. The game itself was loads of fun though, and I had way more fun actually playing it than any prior Fallout.

The inclusion of the crafting system is a great thing in FO4, although I still maintain that there should be weapon degradation (albeit at a slower pace than NV's system) - having a lashed-up laser musket working perfectly in perpetuity is just plain weird, IMO.

And I'll agree on this too - would've been nice to have to use like, metal or other resources to repair things.

 

[Aquinas]

Still got me into fun gameplay faster than I got to in New Vegas.

dude, you're just shitposting at this point. New vegas went Character creation -> Gameplay. not Character creation -> Hour of useless exposition -> Gameplay.

 

[vertexwindi]

You can use saves to skip the "tutorial" in NV too so your argument is void anyway.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

dude, you're just shitposting at this point. New vegas went Character creation -> Gameplay. not Character creation -> Hour of useless exposition -> Gameplay.

Yeah you can literally skip all of that and just go out the city limits and immediately you are done with the exposition.

 

[Overcast]

I remember that you could skip a very large part of the game's story in 3 right as soon as you get out of the vault. If you go a certain direction, you can just go straight to where your dad is. I always found that kinda interesting.

Anyway, I kinda like how NV is designed and paced regarding the first third or so of the game. I can kinda see why people say it railroads the player, but I don't know. I think it makes the wasteland that much more interesting and believable knowing that the quickest way to New Vegas is littered with some of the nastiest enemies in the game. Plus, I've always liked going down the path they intend for you to go. To me, it feels immersive going down the road following Benny's trail and learning about the game's world through its various towns and events.

You see stuff that involves two of the game's major factions and you learn a great deal about both of them. You see how their actions affect the people around them, you get to learn how each of the towns are able to survive in the wasteland. *insert shandification of Fallout video here*

And personally, I've always liked the feeling of walking along what is essentially the yellow brick road to New Vegas. And then you finally get there and the game's world just opens up for you. To me, I feel like that's a good way of setting up the game's world. You can go where you want right from the get go, but be prepared to be punished for it.

 

[Watcher]

The tutorial section in Fallout 3 at least attempts to come across as more organic, though: It's not a case of dumping you in an arena and saying 'mash X to kill stuff' - there's an active attempt to try and integrate it thematically with the story, and tie it in with the core NPCs that you're supposed to give a shit about.

I don't agree with this

The tutorial in Fallout 3 doesn't give you an impression of what the rest of the game is actually like. You progress down a linear corridor and interact with NPCs that by in large don't appear again until an optional sidequest.

I felt a bit more inclined to chase down the dad in FO3 than I did to follow the child in FO4, just because I had no interest in saving the oddly maggoty-looking Shaun. Parental instinct doesn't work in games if there's been no cultivation of it to start with: it's not like one of those pet-raising games where the player ploughs hours into feeding/raising/sperging over a glorified tamagotchi (and thus potentially building something approaching a sense of affection for it).

FO4 just did the whole 'this is your progeny, you must protect it, off you go' moment of exposition, and then rewards you with an awkward absence of fulfilment if you do elect to follow the main storyline.

I don't agree that it had anything to do with parental instinct. I think it had more to do with how focused upon it was. The intro to Fallout 4 is over really quickly and you never get a sense of your child's character or your spouse's. Much less the player's own backstory or the backstory of the world itself. In Fallout 4 you lose almost nothing if you started the game right at Vault 111 and just were told you were missing your son.

NV had a much better overall polish on the game, but I really didn't give much of a toss about the story - the faction mechanics were good, although it was far too easy to be idolised by all but the major factions: it's as if they were looking for a messiah to rock up out of nowhere, which feels more than a little incongruous to play with.

During the second half of the game is where it gets interesting because most of the big factions require you to destroy some of the smaller ones. A good example is it's actually hard to keep the Brotherhood of Steel alive unless you pass a hard speech check with the NCR.

The inclusion of the crafting system is a great thing in FO4, although I still maintain that there should be weapon degradation (albeit at a slower pace than NV's system) - having a lashed-up laser musket working perfectly in perpetuity is just plain weird, IMO.

The reason the weapon degredation system was torn out was to avoid the weapon upgrade system being rendered unnecessary. If it was left in the would be more inclined to keep just a few weapons of a particular type around. Rather than the system in the final game where you can keep lots of different kinds of weapons. Like a semi-automatic rifle you upgraded, or a sniper rifle, or a sniper rifle with a bayonet. That sort of thing.

I personally think the weapon and especially the clothing/armor customization could've been greatly enhanced. Since there's very little cosmetic customization to be found, and a big thing fans modded into Fallout 3 and New Vegas was the "tailor made" mod which allowed you to swap parts of the different armor sets between each other.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

The tutorial in Fallout 3 doesn't give you an impression of what the rest of the game is actually like

Of course it doesn't. You are a vault dweller son of a vault dweller who has never interacted with the outside world. The tutorial is meant to familiarize you with the game mechanics then thrust you into a world you have no idea how to interact with.

And it does a great job at that.

 

[Sallet Lad Jim]

Of course it doesn't. You are a vault dweller son of a vault dweller who has never interacted with the outside world. The tutorial is meant to familiarize you with the game mechanics then thrust you into a world you have no idea how to interact with.

And it does a great job at that.

I think that's part of the reason I enjoyed Fo3's exploration more - even though leveled zones would've been a nice inclusion, I won't disagree with that - I felt a lot more intrigued by the world outside of the vault, and I can remember the moment when I first stepped out onto the road that leads to that small, ruined town - and my first encounter with raiders in the school.

One of the most fun actual starts to a game I've had, honestly.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

I think that's part of the reason I enjoyed Fo3's exploration more - even though leveled zones would've been a nice inclusion, I won't disagree with that - I felt a lot more intrigued by the world outside of the vault, and I can remember the moment when I first stepped out onto the road that leads to that small, ruined town - and my first encounter with raiders in the school.

One of the most fun actual starts to a game I've had, honestly.

Oh yeah definitely there is nothing quite getting out of that vault, go to the small town and explore the school and OH SIHT ANTS and then going to Megaton and everything. That first time you go to the Super-Duper Mart, etc...

Those first 10-12 hours of Fallout 3 were fucking magical.

 

[Tranhuviya]

Was that Oxygen meter in NV always there? I don't remember it being there.

 

[DZ 305]

Was that Oxygen meter in NV always there? I don't remember it being there.

It was. Its just you obviously never got to really use it outside of Lake Mead and the Colorado