Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

And you cut the part where I explained why your idea makes no sense, ukraine despite what russian propaganda has to say its not a western asset nor something the west can't afford to lose, unlike taiwan for example.
Biden gave some answers to this, it was from an interview last month and he was posited the question to the effect of "Is the money we are sending Ukraine worth it? It seems like it is not". Biden bold face said that the money spent on the conflict is peanuts to what would be lost if Russia takes Ukraine. Make of that what you will but to me it seems like it is probably a really bad loss for the west if Ukraine does fall into Russian hands. As someone who enjoys living in the West I think it would be most likely a net negative and bad for me, my family and friends if Russia wins because one of the main guys spearheading NATO said so. If I was living in Russia with my friends, family and all my stuff I would support the opposite take and villainize the west. It is not about good or evil as much as it is about batting for the home team.
 
Biden bold face said that the money spent on the conflict is peanuts to what would be lost if Russia takes Ukraine.
It is peanuts compared to how much more money we burn on far less deserving things, but I've yet to hear one good reason why going to WWIII over ukraine its worth it and what would we lose if ukraine has to give up an eastern chunk full of obsolete rusted-to-fuck industries to the russians.
 
That's interesting. Wikipedia (shit source, I know) tells me that Estonia had Russian troops for a while, but I can't find anything in there about an embargo. There's a blockade mentioned on Lithuania, though.
I was talking about Balts collectively so I do not make yet another long post by splitting them up. I am going from what I remember off the top of my head but archived articles showing these events show up in web search engines.
Lithuania got the majority of trade issues (Poland did quite a bit too coincidentally enough). Estonia and Latvia had to give up some territory because Russia refused to respect old territorial treaties that did not favor Moscow. Russia also cut gas and oil to all three at different points in the 90s. Russia was in general a trash neighbor to Baltics and Poland in the 90s, pulling annoying stunts every few years. All of that coincidentally died down after all of them joined NATO and EU.
Russia's public justification for its behavior was the concern for Russian minorities. It applied to Balts but did not explain why Poland received some of that bad treatment too. Ironically enough, that behavior hurt Russia's reputation in these countries and costed quite a few people among Russian minorities their jobs that were tied to Russian enterprises.

Most of eastern europe was a shithole during the 90's, those countries only got on their feet thanks to the EU and german money, else they would still be poor.
They were trash since WW2 started and that continued after the war when they became Russia's hostages. Economy there started to grow when they were no longer tied to Russia and had more control over their foreign policy and trade. They could finally trade with the west freely and receive non-Russian investments, so of course it was EU and German money. Before that it was Soviet block money and very restricted deals with a small handful of western and neutral nations.
Economies there entered upward trajectory before EU negotiations even started. Poland and Czechia began them in mid 90s. Balts started them in 1999.
 
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It is peanuts compared to how much more money we burn on far less deserving things, but I've yet to hear one good reason why going to WWIII over ukraine its worth it and what would we lose if ukraine has to give up an eastern chunk full of obsolete rusted-to-fuck industries to the russians.
Because of the concept of the tipping scale. Yeah lets keep this mindset and just let rival nations take what they want and need free of charge because it will avoid conflict. Lets let them take enough to tip the scale of power and just hope, pray and cope they wont abuse us with it. Why not just let it happen who cares its not like it would be I or you who pays for it, its the future generations who get to deal with a lofty power from the east as long as it isn't me being thrown on the pyre.

Look the Russians have been aggressively expanding for like 20 years to the point NATO is saying fuck you. Russia could choose to develop its vast land mass but instead wants to swipe land that has been modernized by western money. Russia can fuck off and eat lead.
 
Aurora can be also used. I just warning.
Why, so she can be accidentally shot at again? Let her rest in peace, for Christ's sake.
The new cope upload will be that the incompetent Hohols can never break through glorious Russian defense lines. Russia always excels on the defense. Defense is what the Russian Armies tanks are meant for.
I don't know why everyone is assuming these T-55's will be used defensively when we all know Russia is dumb enough to use them in a front-line attack role simply because they lack any other armor in the area. If they're ordered to attack and all of their more modern tanks are getting repaired or are scrap... they attack, because that's probably less fatal than disobeying orders from Moscow. Considering what Javelin and NLAW did in the early stages its not like they'd somehow perform worse against those than the T-72 and T-90 did, after all.
That’s factually inaccurate. In his video on how the Moskva was sunk, he actually asks that viewers not cheer due to the human cost and he cites a Russian Sailor who is still listed as missing so that the government won’t have to pay death benefits to the family. He reiterates this position in his round table video.
Christ, I've moaned several times in this thread at how a bunch of poor dumb Russian bastards who don't deserve it are getting sent to almost certain death by their uncaring, corrupt leaders.
And it's not like Russia wasn't trying to keep Ukraine under its control with its own gay ops, I don't buy the idea that they have exclusive rights to it just because it happens to be geographically close. That's after centuries of russification in attempt to make it their own.
Every time people bring up the Nuland phone call, my first thoughts are always, "So, if we assume the FSB wasn't also fucking around in Ukraine, how did the Russians get their hands on transcripts of a privileged diplomatic phone call?" Did they have an agent in D.C. hand it to them? Were they wiretapping our embassy in violation of diplomatic norms? Because I'm pretty sure we didn't hand it over to them of our own free will.
They weren't interested until they thought the colonists could win. Revenge against Britain cool, another "Britain embarrasses France AGAIN just like the last fifteen times they tangled" was not. Franklin and Lee spent over a year in Paris begging them before they signed the treaty of alliance
Even before the actual treaty of alliance they were providing us aid. About 90% of the weapons in American hands at Saratoga (you know, the battle that convinced the French we might actually be able to pull it off) were provided to us by one Pierre-Augustin Caron de Beaumarchais, Royal Watchmaker to the French Crown, populist, spy, and a man who really, really liked the idea of the the English Parliament getting their teeth kicked in by a bunch of uppity backwoods colonists, and managed to convinced the French and Spanish kings to each give him a million francs in pursuit of that. It was a million francs the French arguably didn't have at that point since it was 1775 after all, but what the hell, small price to pay for some dead English, am I right?

Of course, the French finance minister pointed out that it indeed was money France couldn't afford and the nation would likely go bankrupt due to its support of the American rebels. Naturally it was an unpopular stance, and his very effective prior reforms had already made him no end of enemies at court, and so he was forced to tender his resignation in 1776, and he would eventually die in 1781, unable to see both the victory he expected with or without French aid and the French nation going bankrupt not long after that, the massive expenditures necessary to help our victory contributing a great deal to its ever-worsening financial straits.
Putin sounded just like a Western blue haired looney when he was talking about denazification of Ukraine. The Russians are just as Boomer tier as the West about the Nazis and WW2. If not worse.
The amount of GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR hype about WW2 they have to this very day is as mind-boggling as it is horrifying. "We never did anything, and if we did, it was just and they had it coming." If you were to tell a Russian on the street about the shameless mass rapes the Red Army did during their "liberation" of Eastern Europe, they'd call you a liar before claiming anyone who did get raped, and nobody ever did get raped because that's all Western lies, was a whore who had it coming for spreading her legs for the fascists.
And Latin America, and Africa, and the Middle East, and Asia. But other than that, they kept to themselves.
I am certain that the brigade of T-55's the Cubans sent to Angola was transported and resupplied entirely by the vast Cuban merchant marine and logistical apparatus that island is known for possessing. And indeed that the Cubans could also ship in new entirely Cuban personnel to replace any losses. Why no comrade, vodka and borscht is a beloved meal of the Cuban peoples in solidarity with their Russian comrades, second only to their fondness of the Russian language, culture, and striped undershirts.
 
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Because of the concept of the tipping scale. Yeah lets keep this mindset and just let rival nations take what they want and need free of charge because it will avoid conflict.
No, thats appeasement, and in this case that would be if we just sit and watch ukraine get annihilated with no help from us at all. In this case we wouldn't even let russia get all of ukraine, just that shitty sliver in the east of the country and they would take it and leave like a mangy dog being given scraps.

If russia took what they wanted they would go all the way and take up to poland and finland, their formal imperial possesions, but they wont because they know they can't, those countries are already too big, too connected and too important to be left go, and even if we don't help them directly they have the means to defend themselves and finland its a turnkey nuclear country that could get a warhead going if needed to, just like japan.
Lets let them take enough to tip the scale of power and just hope, pray and cope they wont abuse us with it.
That's WWII talk, they can't abuse because nukes would go flying, there's no maginot line anymore that they can cross and magically take over the country. The problem with ukraine is that it was left there for the taking, had we let them keep even half the soviet nukes they had russia wouldn't dare doing shit because all it takes its for a handful of nukes to work and its game over for them.
Why not just let it happen who cares its not like it would be I or you who pays for it, its the future generations who get to deal with a lofty power from the east as long as it isn't me being thrown on the pyre.
Don't worry the chinese are not going anywhere and once russia collapses they are gonna take all of it over leaving just moscow to starve without any resources. And good luck applying any pressure to this 'greater china' after that when they wont need any imports to survive anymore, plus they already got half the planet by the balls in debt.

But yeah go and worry about the russians, a bunch of has-beens with collapsing demographics and an economy centered on basic raw materials.
Look the Russians have been aggressively expanding for like 20 years
Where? fake-ass weapons that don't work? shitty propaganda that only dementia boomers and lefties fall for? that pathetic war with georgia? an economic boom that ended when oil prices went down? what expansion?
to the point NATO is saying fuck you.
The one single thing russia is actually right about is that we did promise that we wouldnt expand nato, and we did, which of course does not justifies any of this shit but anyone who knows russian history knows they are psychologically unable to cope with having enemies at the border, taunting them with that its the dumbest shit you can do and we did.
Russia could choose to develop its vast land mass
Nah its easier to sell everything and live the high life until the gravy train stops, that's their motto.
but instead wants to swipe land that has been modernized by western money
What? our civil investments in ukraine are pitiful and several people up top already made it clear we're not wasting any more money on rebuilding wartorn states like with did in afghanistan, so ukraine its gonna have to firesale their assets or get indebted for a century to get anything going, and BTW their way of doing business its very similar to the russian "steal everything that isn't nailed to the ground" philosophy.
. Russia can fuck off and eat lead.
Sure but they wont, nazis thought that if they were gonna get erased from history they could slam the door so hard that the universe would shake, which of course they couldn't because they didn't have nukes, but russia does. Some retards out there and also here are jacking it to the idea that russians will go extinct just like that and not fire every warhead they got, as if we would also just give up and go "guess I'll die" instead of taking the entire planet with us to hell.
 
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New perun, don't know if this one is early or late but it feels different than the usual release times.
I watched it. It was a good video and plenty of good points were made. Russia and Ukraine aren't likely to run out of people capable of fighting for a long time. The way randos on the internet are calculating losses in the war is retarded and can't be fully trusted. Russia is shipping the T-55's into Ukraine as a stop gap till they get other tanks prepared to send. This is just his theory though. I don't personally believe it 100%. Russian media seems to think it's good that Russia is sending all these old tanks into combat against newer and better equipment. The vatniggers bragging about how Russia is firing more artillery than Ukraine is just as retarded as it was a year ago.

That's basically the TLDR rundown.
There is a fucked up part of me that wants WW3 to happen because after the dust settles and if you are lucky enough to survive I think things will get pretty based. Everyone will get off their fucking high horse and be humbled.
There won't be a WW3. There is no one left to fight one. The US definitely could. But there isn't a capable enemy anymore. Russia is trash and China is trash. All the baddies are trash.

If it did most people would be dead and those who don't die will wish they had.
NATO and the Globohomo are really good at war. They whipped up a small military into fighting shape and with some monetary investments gave them the capability to effectively defend against the so called second strongest military on the planet. China and Russia are fucking cooked if the west and NATO decide its time to take the gloves off, they will turn the Chinese gay lmao.
The Russian military is garbage. That plays a large role. But the Ukrainians took to the NATO training well. Fighting for their own country is definitely giving them a boost. Like the average Russian conscript doesn't want to be there. But the average Ukrainian soldier is fighting for his country family and way of life. The cause is just as important as the training and weapons.
It is peanuts compared to how much more money we burn on far less deserving things, but I've yet to hear one good reason why going to WWIII over ukraine its worth it and what would we lose if ukraine has to give up an eastern chunk full of obsolete rusted-to-fuck industries to the russians.
Please, stop with the WWIII hysteria. There isn't going to be a WWIII. Who is going to fight? Russia? They can't even take Ukraine. China's military is garbage as well. Their navy is brown water at best. Hard to fight WW3 without a capable navy. Get over it already. WWIII is never going to happen.
 
Please, stop with the WWIII hysteria.
It is not a matter of will but when. Currently things have never been calmer geopolitically.

@cybertoaster I don't even know how to respond to your post since what I said was meant to be read in 2 pieces yet you managed to red herring it with 8 separate responses. Many of which have little to do with the substance of the statements.
 
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Please, stop with the WWIII hysteria. There isn't going to be a WWIII. Who is going to fight? Russia? They can't even take Ukraine. China's military is garbage as well. Their navy is brown water at best.
There's not gonna be a fight dumbass, there's gonna be a big flash and if you live past that you'll walk aimlessly with the skin hanging off your arms until you die from third degree burns. If you're outside the area the radiation sickness will kill you slowly, and if you happen to be out in the sticks you get to live the rest of your life with no medicine, no tech, no industry, no power, whatever food still grows with a nuclear famine and multiple holes in the ozone layer, and of course no government so you get to enjoy somalia-levels of violence and anarchy.

Holy shit how can anyone here believe the other side its just gonna give up and die?
 
Everything that has ever existed. Nothing has been as objectively evil as US/NATO. The rot it wishes to extend to the entire world is deplorable.
Might want to read up on the Soviet Union. Hint: they're responsible for all the faggotry infecting the US right now.

Right wing Russiaboos exhibit the same retarded behavior Teddy K outlined for leftoids when it came to "primitive people". Only the nouns need to be changed.

Just change out a few words with Homosexual, Jewish, Tranny, etc. "The west is gay and has AIDS! Yes, Russia has a rate of AIDS on par with Africa but that's all because da ebul west!"
The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization.
 
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It is not a matter of will but when. Currently things have never been calmer geopolitically.

@cybertoaster I don't even know how to respond to your post since what I said was meant to be read in 2 pieces yet you managed to red herring it with 8 separate responses.
It's not a matter of anything. It's not going to happen. There is not a single country on earth except the US that is capable of sustaining such a war.
There's not gonna be a fight dumbass, there's gonna be a big flash and if you live past that you'll walk aimlessly with the skin hanging off your arms until you die from third degree burns. If you're outside the area the radiation sickness will kill you slowly, and if you happen to be out in the sticks you get to live the rest of your life with no medicine, no tech, no industry, no power, whatever food still grows with a nuclear famine and multiple holes in the ozone layer, and of course no government so you get to enjoy somalia-levels of violence and anarchy.

Holy shit how can anyone here believe the other side its just gonna give up and die?
Go watch this and educate yourself retard.


If you come back and still say Perun is wrong go sit in a corner and slap yourself till you learn.

No one is going to use nuclear weapons. Why? A little thing known as MAD. If anyone uses nukes they will get nuked back. No missile defense system will save anyone.

Now go be a doomspeak faggot somewhere else.
Might want to read up on the Soviet Union. Hint: they're responsible for all the faggotry infecting the US right now.
The Soviet Union's response to US criticism is one of the reasons why we have out of control niggers. When the US would criticize the Soviets for what they were doing in Europe to Europeans the Soviets would say "you hang negroes".

Good job Russia. Niggers are clearly equal to Europeans.

 
It's not a matter of anything. It's not going to happen. There is not a single country on earth except the US that is capable of sustaining such a war.
You are right. Humans are not the type of animal to have a predisposition to fight, WW1 and WW2 were flukes. I know when someone is fighting me I think to myself I can't afford to fight the guy who is attacking me he is slightly bigger and has a better looking bank account, he has better endurance then I do especially when engaged in a brawl with 50 other people some who are allied with me. What retarded point are you trying to make a global conflict is not really a choice it is just what happens when you have people who disagree with each other. I will bet my life that WW3 will happen, most likely within my lifespan it is probable to occur because humans like fighting over shit.
 
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From the Z Thread... Are you fucking kidding me.

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Everything that has ever existed. Nothing has been as objectively evil as US/NATO. The rot it wishes to extend to the entire world is deplorable.
>Everything that has ever existed

This includes:

>Khmer Rouge
>The USSR
>The CCP
>Fascist Italy
>Nazi Germany
>Apartheid
>The whole of the Middle East
>All the awful oligarchies & monarchies of pre-WW1
 
1. No side thinks the other will drop nukes (yet)
The evidence for this is as follows: There are a lot of things that can be done if a nuclear war is imminent, such as readying all your systems and moving the president to a safe place and it's pretty obvious none of these are being done. (Kamala Harris fucked off to Ghana of all places)

This is also because dropping nukes requires you to be crazy, and nobody is crazy at the moment or even successfully pretends to be crazy. Kim Jong-Un tries that shit but, like, nobody is even scared anymore. It is probably safe to say that Putin is not crazy either.

2. No side will drop nukes
Reason one is that nobody is seriously scared of it, suggesting that there's no credible threat.

Reason two is, who the fuck would you nuke?
a) Nuke an ally - lol no
b) Nuke a completely neutral country - achieves nothing
c) Nuke the enemy alliance - MAD trigger
d) Nuke someone vaguely enemy-leaning - A lot of countries will suddenly be very keen to join NATO

3. No side will escalate to dropping nukes (for now)
Outside of Ukraine, nobody is shooting. Within Ukraine the threat has downgraded from "imminent cessation of existence" to "might lose a city". In the rest of the world, the war amounts to a moderate economic headache, a bunch of UN bullshit, and maybe a bunch of national budget.

There's also a shitload of WMDs that aren't nukes, are less risky than nukes, and would probably work better here. I somehow doubt that Ukraine is prepared for a smallpox outbreak, for instance.

4. Should we fear nukes?
Yes, obviously, in general. The fear of nukes is important, and a single nuke would exceed the death toll of the entire war so far.
No, in the context of any specific action unless said action also involves nukes. (See: Cuban Missile Crisis)
 
From the Z Thread... Are you fucking kidding me.

View attachment 4894525
That thread is less to discuss this war with a Russian slant than it is to lurk this thread and bitch about wrongthink and how we're all stupid for denying the glory of Russia and failing to understand that nothing Russia does is a mistake. It's less a thread about the Russia-Ukrane war and more spergs getting mad.

Also lol historylegends.

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That thread is less to discuss this war with a Russian slant than it is to lurk this thread and bitch about wrongthink and how we're all stupid for denying the glory of Russia and failing to understand that nothing Russia does is a mistake. It's less a thread about the Russia-Ukrane war and more spergs getting mad.

Also lol historylegends.

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Yeah I do not use Youtube channels to get my sitrep from because its obvious people who are talking out of their ass are just grifting which ever side they pander to for views. I find the Institute for the Study of War to be reasonable and some Ukranian outlets usually the ones that tend to mirror the more reputable Official Russian ones the data sets are all within a reasonable margin of error.
 
That thread is less to discuss this war with a Russian slant than it is to lurk this thread and bitch about wrongthink and how we're all stupid for denying the glory of Russia and failing to understand that nothing Russia does is a mistake. It's less a thread about the Russia-Ukrane war and more spergs getting mad.
Let's be real that's literally both threads. They separated the discussion for a reason and it's because the majority of posters for both sides are spergs absolutely seething with the opposing side.

If you say the Ukrainian government and Zelenskyy are corrupt scum that need to be hanged and the Ukrainians seem to be on the backfoot militarily you'll be negrated here but posrated in the other thread, if you say Putin was absolutely retarded for invading Ukraine and that Russia is also a corrupt hellhole that has serious issues with its military and you'll be negrated there and posrated here.

The interesting thing is that if you put both of those (factual, imo) statements together you'll be negrated in both threads because both are full of spergs that have picked a "side".

I think there are a couple of posters in both threads that are decent and make good pointa. It's a shame there's not a neutral thread because I started this thing supporting Russia out of instinct but I've realised there's a LOT more nuance by actually reading some of the good posts in this thread although I prefer the other.
 
If you say the Ukrainian government and Zelenskyy are corrupt scum that need to be hanged and the Ukrainians seem to be on the backfoot militarily you'll be negrated here
Not really I think most people in this thread are self aware of the corruption in Ukraine, the people here are also aware that type of corruption is prevalent in most places on the globe. Nobody cares about the corruption. For me personally I support a country defending itself from an invader and wish for the Russians to stop shelling children.
 
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