Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Ghostse]

Marco Polo was cancelled after two seasons, not one. Nevertheless, your point still stands.

I think I must have made myself forget that.

 

[Adamska]

Honestly since I actually do like Gundam, it feels like most of you guys only really watched Wing, SEED, and whatever popped on US airwaves at the time from the criticisms I'm seeing here. Those ones were a lot more like the stereotype I've been seeing get dragged into this thread. Particularly SEED, which is to the original run what Dave's Clone Wars is to Tartokovsky's; an inferior duplication that emphasizes things you don't really like.

Like yeah, the original run wasn't perfect; but it also did give clear signs on Newtype ability before episode 37; those weird insights that Amuro and others had at times were clear signs of them using "flashes", or being able to read and understand the opponent's moves before they do them. And no, that wasn't tacked on for the show; they were actually a thing that was always there and would've been expanded on. The issue however was IT GOT CANCELLED EARLY. I recall they were supposed to have maybe double the episodes to work with before that point but Sunrise got sick of it and canned it. With that in mind I think they did a decently good job at finishing the run.

 

[Liquid Kent]

Honestly since I actually do like Gundam, it feels like most of you guys only really watched Wing, SEED, and whatever popped on US airwaves at the time from the criticisms I'm seeing here. Those ones were a lot more like the stereotype I've been seeing get dragged into this thread. Particularly SEED, which is to the original run what Dave's Clone Wars is to Tartokovsky's; an inferior duplication that emphasizes things you don't really like.

Like yeah, the original run wasn't perfect; but it also did give clear signs on Newtype ability before episode 37; those weird insights that Amuro and others had at times were clear signs of them using "flashes", or being able to read and understand the opponent's moves before they do them. And no, that wasn't tacked on for the show; they were actually a thing that was always there and would've been expanded on. The issue however was IT GOT CANCELLED EARLY. I recall they were supposed to have maybe double the episodes to work with before that point but Sunrise got sick of it and canned it. With that in mind I think they did a decently good job at finishing the run.

That's a very good and succinct comparison man.

Over here, Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny is the mainstream spike in Gundam interest growing up (in addition to Gundam Wing when I was in elementary school) and currently the only new mainstream spike is Iron-Blooded Orphans. Same comparison with Parasite Dave's Clone Wars- it's hailed as a great achievement in storytelling, but pales in comparison with the older originals or wayside stories, like Republic Commando, Jedi Academy and since we're using the Gundam comparison analogy; After War Gundam X. (I fucking love AWGX!)

 

[Uranus Pink]

If I'm looking for a sci-fi entertainment series where people use the power of believing in themselves to overcome the laws of physics, my first choice wouldn't be Star Wars...midichlorians don't make it more believable, either.

Hence Star Wars being sci-fi fantasy it could do things in their universe that we cannot do in ours. But as soon as the franchise tried to be less fantasy and more realistic sci-fi it opened up something that shouldn't have been opened. Because it is no longer playing with just its own rules for its own universe but now also playing with our rules in their universe.

 

[The Ugly One]

Hence Star Wars being sci-fi fantasy it could do things in their universe that we cannot do in ours. But as soon as the franchise tried to be less fantasy and more realistic sci-fi it opened up something that shouldn't have been opened. Because it is no longer playing with just its own rules for its own universe but now also playing with our rules in their universe.

Similarly, Star Trek was more fun back when problems were solved by Captain Kirk being an alpha Chad, rather than when Geordi Laforge was solving them with tachyon bursts from the navigational deflector.

 

[Bulk Bogan]

I just don't like anime in general, so I have a very low tolerance for the shenanigans that Gundam gets up to. I like Ghost in the Shell, but only SAC and 2nd Gig. Ghost Stories is great, 8th MS Team, uh... Initial D is fun for a while? I think that's about it. Also DS9 is the best Star Trek, and Voyager is underappreciated.

 

[Ghostse]

Honestly since I actually do like Gundam, it feels like most of you guys only really watched Wing, SEED, and whatever popped on US airwaves at the time from the criticisms I'm seeing here. Those ones were a lot more like the stereotype I've been seeing get dragged into this thread. Particularly SEED, which is to the original run what Dave's Clone Wars is to Tartokovsky's; an inferior duplication that emphasizes things you don't really like.

Like yeah, the original run wasn't perfect; but it also did give clear signs on Newtype ability before episode 37; those weird insights that Amuro and others had at times were clear signs of them using "flashes", or being able to read and understand the opponent's moves before they do them. And no, that wasn't tacked on for the show; they were actually a thing that was always there and would've been expanded on. The issue however was IT GOT CANCELLED EARLY. I recall they were supposed to have maybe double the episodes to work with before that point but Sunrise got sick of it and canned it. With that in mind I think they did a decently good job at finishing the run.

That's a very good and succinct comparison man.

Over here, Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny is the mainstream spike in Gundam interest growing up (in addition to Gundam Wing when I was in elementary school) and currently the only new mainstream spike is Iron-Blooded Orphans. Same comparison with Parasite Dave's Clone Wars- it's hailed as a great achievement in storytelling, but pales in comparison with the older originals or wayside stories, like Republic Commando, Jedi Academy and since we're using the Gundam comparison analogy; After War Gundam X. (I fucking love AWGX!)

I'm not sure what other gundam I watched, and I'm probably getting part of it scrambled with some Macross Robotech variant in my memories. One was on Cartoon Network and another was some ripped avis. I found both equally dumb.
Anyway, I'm sure your arguements are valid, however per my early comment about saving time:
Weeb.
Faggot.

I just don't like anime in general, so I have a very low tolerance for the shenanigans that Gundam gets up to. I like Ghost in the Shell, but only SAC and 2nd Gig. Ghost Stories is great, 8th MS Team, uh... Initial D is fun for a while? I think that's about it. Also DS9 is the best Star Trek, and Voyager is underappreciated.

Same, I'm not a huge fan of Anime. I've gotten hooked on some Manga series recently despite hating anything Nipponese back it the day, and wondered "Was I just too harsh on Manga and just being a contrarian anti-weeb?" and tried to read some older series and nope, still rancid garbage. I guess manga writers/creators just got less garbage or at least not writing for a hyper-nipponese audience.

Cowboy Bebop is good. The only thing I'll say is it is overrated - this doesn't mean its bad, just people talk about it like its some sort for perfect divine creation. Its decent, there are a few bad/dumb episodes, but its enjoyable and doesn't insult the viewer. Full Metal Alchemist is alright.


DS9 was the best overall trek. If I'm going to be forced to watch a random episode of any Trek, that's the one I'd pick. I think TNG has some the best episodes, but there were some stinkers in there too, and they often got real heavy handed with the morals on even the middlin' episodes. By numbers, Voyager's good/mediocre/bad episode ratio wasn't much worse than TNG, but when a Voyager episode was bad boy howdy did it manage to shit the bed.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Similarly, Star Trek was more fun back when problems were solved by Captain Kirk being an alpha Chad, rather than when Geordi Laforge was solving them with tachyon bursts from the navigational deflector.

It's kinda funny how a lot of Trekkies have such pride over the technical aspects of later shows, when it's just gobbledygook with sci-fi terms to cover up for the fact that they can barely write a decent plot that doesn't involve magic technobabble. At least with TOS, that was limited to a certain extent. Especially when Kirk is more than capable of breaking the Prime Directive to save lives, whereas Picard and other captains have dilemmas over whether or not to save lives if it gets in the way of their precious Prime Directive.

Hence Star Wars being sci-fi fantasy it could do things in their universe that we cannot do in ours. But as soon as the franchise tried to be less fantasy and more realistic sci-fi it opened up something that shouldn't have been opened. Because it is no longer playing with just its own rules for its own universe but now also playing with our rules in their universe.

SW was actually more realistic in its earlier iterations, it was only later when they decided to throw caution to the wind and have things like the Galaxy Gun, the Star Forge, and more fantastical tech like that of the Gungan cities, as opposed to tech that resembled what was viable science during the 1970s:

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Like yeah, the original run wasn't perfect; but it also did give clear signs on Newtype ability before episode 37;

in my case the first time I saw First was the movies because that's all that was translated at the time, and iirc they bring up Newtypes when Matilda shows up which is way earlier

 

[The Ugly One]

It's kinda funny how a lot of Trekkies have such pride over the technical aspects of later shows, when it's just gobbledygook with sci-fi terms to cover up for the fact that they can barely write a decent plot that doesn't involve magic technobabble. At least with TOS, that was limited to a certain extent. Especially when Kirk is more than capable of breaking the Prime Directive to save lives, whereas Picard and other captains have dilemmas over whether or not to save lives if it gets in the way of their precious Prime Directive.


SW was actually more realistic in its earlier iterations, it was only later when they decided to throw caution to the wind and have things like the Galaxy Gun, the Star Forge, and more fantastical tech like that of the Gungan cities, as opposed to tech that resembled what was viable science during the 1970s:

Star Trek science seems plausible when you're 13 and don't really know anything about even basic Newtonian mechanics. Then you get older and learn that TNG scripts literally had "techity techity tech" in places, to be filled in later by bullshit.

The tech should serve the story. For example, with the Millennium Falcoln, if you remember the scene where the warp drive won't go, how warp speed "works" is completely irrelevant to the story. Han and Chewie are just Bo and Luke Duke in space. The Space General Lee won't start, and Space Boss Hogg is bearing down on them.

You've got a vehicle with an engine that won't start. That's it, that's the key device. It works for the audience because the core plot device makes sense, not because anything about Star Wars' pseudoscientific faketech is realistic.

By contrast, literally nothing leading up to the Holdo Maneuver makes sense, and then the writers pull a TNG-tier deus ex machina out of their ass, and just how retarded the entire thing is stands out in sharp relief to the audience.

 

[Michael Wade]

Big Gundam expert here. It is a sliding scale of quality when It comes to the hard sci Fi in mainline UC franchise but there are some gems. Just stay the hell away from the AU shows.

My personal favorites

To start off Gundam F91 is a fun one. It straight up rips off star wars. And I don't mean it's inspired, no I mean the fucking empire has an army of mobile suits and it's coming to kick some federation ass. They stole Vader's theme and he's the freaking villain.

Mobile Suit Gundam F91 Track 6 CrossbornbanGunno Sinkouto

Mobile Suit Gundam F91 Track 6 CrossbornbanGunno Sinkouto

youtu.be

Very rushed because it was supposed to be a series that turned into a movie, but it's got a fun star wars vibe.



Gundam Thunderbolt: fantastic war drama. Great action, nice soundtrack, light on newtypes and a chad federation main character fighting a cripple zeke. Very much what I wanted 08th team to be.

Victory Gundam: all time favorite UC series. Best fights, best deaths, best random awesome shit. Maybe 50 percent of the cast makes it out alive if we are being generous. the bad guys have equal access to beam weaponry and shielding so there's many times where Gundams get the shit shot out of them. Losing legs, arms, heads. It's brutal and does a better job then most of selling how horrible war is when your not sure who's gonna bite it next. There's stupid shit like mobile suits and battleships on wheels in the atmosphere but it has some of the most creative and interesting fights of the series.

Gundam Hathaway's flash: only one movie out but its got a very grounded tone and weighty fights. Follows schizo son of a war hero as he tries to lead a terrorist group against the feds.

Gundam unicorn: probably the most genuinely star wars feeling entry in the series. It accomplished what the sequel trilogy was trying to do and actually managed to make a worthwhile continuation with the zeon remnants struggles against the federation.
There's more newtype shit then everything else on here but I thought they did a good job balancing it with the hard sci Fi elements if that makes sense. At least until the end anyway. The sequel NT had newtype shit up the ass but at least it was nice enough to better explain how it works and why it's no longer around in the later UC works.

Honorable mentions: Gundam 0083 absolutely
beautiful hand drawn 90s animation, great fights and cool zeon characters. Probably one of the worst federation main character and female romances in the franchise.

Gundam igloo: I haven't sat down to watch it all but it has harder sci Fi as it's a collection of short stories of zeon engineers trying to build wonder weapons to win the war. Couple Freddie storys too but they got a newtype ghost for some reason. Otherwise fairly grounded.

Also check out the English novels for the original Gundam. That actually explains how the tech works and has a far more hardcore tone and alternate ending.



I've always loved how Gundam wholesale stole lightsabers. To their credit though I don't think they're ever had a scene where the sabers deflected a bullet or beam. They know that's a bridge too far.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Star Trek science seems plausible when you're 13 and don't really know anything about even basic Newtonian mechanics. Then you get older and learn that TNG scripts literally had "techity techity tech" in places, to be filled in later by bullshit.

That's what it feels like. It's science babble for people who don't actually do science. I could tell when I saw how inconsistent their technobabble was.

The tech should serve the story. For example, with the Millennium Falcoln, if you remember the scene where the warp drive won't go, how warp speed "works" is completely irrelevant to the story. Han and Chewie are just Bo and Luke Duke in space. The Space General Lee won't start, and Space Boss Hogg is bearing down on them.

Exactly. The Falcon's erratic performance served the plot. Instead of Han fixing it by triangulating the hydrotopic matrix, he had to go and get it fixed because he basically put a hyperdrive that's supposed to be really fast in a literal piece of shit. It's like if I took a broken-down Camaro, refurbished it a bit, and then stuck in a new, updated engine that goes faster than most cars, which of course, would eventually lead to problems down the road.

By contrast, literally nothing leading up to the Holdo Maneuver makes sense, and then the writers pull a TNG-tier deus ex machina out of their ass, and just how retarded the entire thing is stands out in sharp relief to the audience.

That's because you're dealing with writers who just see Star Wars as any other sci-fi that they can paste over with bullshitium, not noticing that doing this would piss people off the way the Crucible Space Magic pissed off the Mass Effect fanbase when it debuted in ME3.

 

[The Ugly One]

That's what it feels like. It's science babble for people who don't actually do science. I could tell when I saw how inconsistent their technobabble was.

At his recent keynote speech at the New York Television Festival, former Star Trek writer and creator of the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica Ron Moore revealed the secret formula to writing for Trek.

He described how the writers would just insert “tech” into the scripts whenever they needed to resolve a story or plot line, then they’d have consultants fill in the appropriate words (aka technobabble) later.

“It became the solution to so many plot lines and so many stories,” Moore said. “It was so mechanical that we had science consultants who would just come up with the words for us and we’d just write ‘tech’ in the script. You know, Picard would say ‘Commander La Forge, tech the tech to the warp drive.’ I’m serious. If you look at those scripts, you’ll see that.”

Moore then went on to describe how a typical script might read before the science consultants did their thing:

La Forge: “Captain, the tech is overteching.”

Picard: “Well, route the auxiliary tech to the tech, Mr. La Forge.”

La Forge: “No, Captain. Captain, I’ve tried to tech the tech, and it won’t work.”

Picard: “Well, then we’re doomed.”

“And then Data pops up and says, ‘Captain, there is a theory that if you tech the other tech … ‘” Moore said. “It’s a rhythm and it’s a structure, and the words are meaningless. It’s not about anything except just sort of going through this dance of how they tech their way out of it.”

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2009/10/why_i_hate_star_trek.html

Exactly. The Falcon's erratic performance served the plot. Instead of Han fixing it by triangulating the hydrotopic matrix, he had to go and get it fixed because he basically put a hyperdrive that's supposed to be really fast in a literal piece of shit. It's like if I took a broken-down Camaro, refurbished it a bit, and then stuck in a new, updated engine that goes faster than most cars, which of course, would eventually lead to problems down the road.

This gets back to character archetypes. Among many other things, Han really is that guy on the block with a souped-up, rusting-out '60s muscle car that is forever breaking down, but it's really badass for the three hours a month it actually runs.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Also check out the English novels for the original Gundam. That actually explains how the tech works and has a far more hardcore tone and alternate ending.

yeah they're a very nice alternate take, and a good way to get under the hood about how newtyping somebody works other than "then you trip balls at each other"

 

[Calandrino]

By contrast, literally nothing leading up to the Holdo Maneuver makes sense, and then the writers pull a TNG-tier deus ex machina out of their ass, and just how retarded the entire thing is stands out in sharp relief to the audience.

It's f=ma, you can't call that one technobabble. I took it as Rian's way of saying that all the other Star Wars movies were stupid because they could have just done that the whole time. That's one of the main themes of the movie, that all the SW movies before TLJ were stupid and RJ is much smarter, so it's also justified from a narrative standpoint.

 

[Sneed F91]

I didn't say I hated 08th MS Team or anything. It started strong but you could tell the quality dropped by the end. That movie ending was not good. I really liked the 0079 series (sue me), the Origin, Thunderbolt, MOST of 08th, and I need to watch Zeta and 0080 soon but I'm waiting to do that with a friend.

Unless you're literally retarded (which tbh judging b this and the rest of your comments in this thead you probably are) you should understand what I mean by this. Season 1 is mostly unburdened by greater star wars lore. There's no prophecies, legends or chosen ones or anything like that.

Sure, but that's not what you said. You said it had nothing to do with Star Wars and I'm saying it's does. By your own logic the EU isn't Star Wars because most of it doesn't have anything to do with the Skywalkers. You don't have to be an autistic fanboy to enjoy Mando S1 which is why it had normie crossover appeal but enjoying it is enhanced by knowing at least about the OT.

Someone with no prior experience of starwars can watch it and enjoy it just fine, because for the most part its literally just bounty hunting in space. And in fact several HAVE. A lot of people who have never watched star wars have watched the mandalorian and enjoyed it because it works as a standalone for this reason.

No shit. Doesn't mean it's not attempting to be Star Wars. We've pointed out ITT how many elements Jon and Dave attempted to take from the things that inspired George to make the OT. Westerns and Japanese stuff.

The most complicated part about season 1 lore is "There used to be an old government that's fallen now."

Which was informed by what happened in ROTJ.

 

[Sneed F91]

Like yeah, the original run wasn't perfect; but it also did give clear signs on Newtype ability before episode 37; those weird insights that Amuro and others had at times were clear signs of them using "flashes", or being able to read and understand the opponent's moves before they do them. And no, that wasn't tacked on for the show; they were actually a thing that was always there and would've been expanded on.

Sometimes I wonder if 0079 being inspired by Star Wars is something the fans made up, or it Tomino actually was a fan of ANH. Another thing, think about how George was immediately told to fuck off from working on Disney Wars, while Tomino is old as hell and still working on Gundam shit to this very day. The Japanese are something else.

 

[Inafune Fanfiction]

Weirdly enough, as much as Trekkies the world over warned me how flimsy and poorly-handled the mystical Bajoran elements of DS9 would be, I didn't find them anywhere as intrusive or tacky as I'd been led to believe.

And at any rate, the show at least spent the time and the intimate examination necessary to make the Prophets and the Pah-Wraiths justifiable as an in-universe element, right from the first episode of the show. That, and the spiritual conflicts it created for characters like Sisko, Kira and Winn Adami actually added to the personal stakes of the characters rather than distracting from them, or feeling like a misguided, desperate attempt by the writers to make the story "deep".

I would still take Sisko and Gul Dukat battling as the embodiment of Bajoran "good vs evil", wonky SFX and all, over that farce of a final confrontation between Rey and Palpatine in the finale of TROS.

The Bajorans are a completely forgettable part of the trek universe imo. A race of anteater nosed people with indian styled jewelry such as nose rings that connect to an earring that worship their gods via D&D scrying orbs. They tried way too hard to make them relatable by equating them to space joos suffering under the cardassian occupation/concentration camps. But then never showed any of it. So it was little different than Kira screaming hysterics for no reason.

Compared to Admiral Ross talking about hating that he has to "send young men and women to die every day" and then the writers showing the outpost battle in another episode where Sisko and everyone there held the line.

The actors performances were good but those story arcs really detracted a bit from the real stars of the show, the dominion and their systematic conquering of the Cardassians via beauracracy. Without firing a single shot. With all the setup involved through various story arcs and an actual good payoff.

 

[Dixieland Buckaroo]

Jfc this is the star wars thread, not the Gundam thread(s) or the star trek thread(s). They're literally in this same forum. I get it if you don't want to talk about star wars anymore, but don't shit up this thread with all that.

And the reason I hated Dave from last week's show was he made the galaxy feel even smaller. Literally that one old Asian guy flew his xwing across the galaxy and back like it was nothing. And who casts Tim Meadows in the current year?

 

[Sneed F91]

And the reason I hated Dave from last week's show was he made the galaxy feel even smaller.

To be fair this has been a problem with Star Wars since the year 1XXX.

By the way, did anyone know Star Wars Celebration is this weekend?

No fucking idea what there is to celebrate though.