Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Techpriest Mk II]

Question: how viable is it to throw high explosives via direct fire, the same way you'd be trying to hit a tank?

If I'm not wrong the Germans thought of doing that with the StuG series in ww2, and their firing range was expected to be 2+km

It’s viable, just not optimal. Earthworks can easily absorb most of the force.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Paywalled Economist article on vehicle decoys;
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Also, Zelensky was in Avdiivka today; the fuckwit vatniks immediately started insisting that the warehouse & soundstage he uses isn't anywhere near the front, and the conscripts/actors hate him. Meanwhile, small arms & artillery is heard in the background.

Edit: "Zelensky isn't anywhere near the front, they had some guys outside just shooting AKs randomly & throwing grenades!"


I suppose their autism makes it hard to read faces, but all I see are a few guys who wish they were somewhere else, or are falling asleep standing up; nothing like hate or disgust. That's life for any soldier; you'll be coming off duty and then someone tells you to hurry up and go stand in a formation for the command. Still, his decision to show up personally will do more their for motivation than any award will.

No wonder Zelensky gets shit done; he's the kind of boss who will pop out of the woodwork whenever he feels like, and it keeps people on their toes.

 

[Ghostse]

Question: how viable is it to throw high explosives via direct fire, the same way you'd be trying to hit a tank?

As others said, its viable.

The primary issue is that in a direct fire situation you can see your target, and that means your target probably can see you and either fire back or call in artillery.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Russia would have to completely abuse the ethnic elites to the point they don't see any advantages to continuing to submit to Moscow. Then you'd need to have some sort of legit independence movement. They'd also need either a strong local militia (hahahahah) or an international sempai who will protected them from Russia when they want to break away.

Let's just put it like this; when the Soviet Union collapsed, the only breakaways that actually fit anywhere close to all that criteria were the Baltic states, which were always considered illegally occupied territory by the international community. There was no strong independence movement in places like Belarus or Ukraine. No strong international support for the Soviet states to breakaway existed as many people in the west didn't want the Soviets to completely collapse (for fear of what would happen to their weapons of mass destruction, among other reasons). Independence movements existed, but they still exist in Russia today in places like Yakutia, Tuva, and, yes, even Chechnya. When the Soviets collapse, people openly wondered how far the collapse would go, and if places like Tuva would break away as well. Chechnya tried, but the Russians forced them back in. Russia won't have the power or stomach for something like that again if it starts breaking up again.

Paid for by the Russian power apartatus.

A power apparatus that is largely tied to Putin and Putin alone, and otherwise is rife with corruption and barely functional. Nazi Germany would have faced the same problem had Hitler won World War II but died later. The entire state apparatus was tied to his persona alone, not necessarily the office of Fuhrer, and Hitler went out of his way to create overlapping responsibility and pit organizations against each other to ensure that he alone would be the center of the state. Putin largely operates the same way. And just like Hitler, he has no clear successor. Everyone around him is merely a yesman and a patsy. So when he dies, chaos will erupt just because there will be no clear heir to his legacy and everybody hates everybody else.

 

[Super Saiyan Hitler]

I saw this on JewTube today and thought that it was pretty funny. This guy is a high-profile right-libertarian and he tries to draw a connection between Covid policy and Ukraine to shill his new book. If you dislike Covid lockdowns, you should oppose everything the state does. With this kind of logic, it's only a matter of time until libertarians start to eat shit to pwn the political-medical establishment that is suspiciously critical of eating shit. The sperging about Covid also seems hypocritical since there were lockdowns in Russia and even a 'vaccine passport' at the height of Covid. Of course, they can still trust the Russian politicians who were also wrong about Covid.

Actually, the Covid stuff is only how he's selling it. The book is just transcripts from his show, a transcript from a libertarian debate forum, and, for some reason, the transcript of a speech that a state senator from Maine gave. It's mostly the old Mearsheimer stuff mixed in with "America bad." There are also takes from Douglas Macgregor about how Russian victory is right around the corner, so we shouldn't even bother helping Ukraine, not that it would matter anyway, which is why we constantly hear that we shouldn't send a single gun.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Question: how viable is it to throw high explosives via direct fire, the same way you'd be trying to hit a tank?

Most modern artillery that is not a mortar or rocket launcher is capable of direct fire. The problem is if your artillery is having to do direct fire somebody fucked up somewhere.

The M777 for example actually has a specific ammunition type for Direct Fire. Its essentially a massive buckshot round that fires hundreds of little steel balls at high velocity in a cone radiating from the muzzle. Guaranteed to ruin any advancing infantry formations day.

 

[Clownish]

Azov Brigade uploaded a video of them training new recruits.

 

[MG-34]

Azov Brigade uploaded a video of them training new recruits.

Are they officially now called Azov Brigade?

 

[Clownish]

Are they officially now called Azov Brigade?

Yeah, they were made into a Brigade a couple months ago. The Wikipedia title for Azov has even been changed to Azov Brigade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade

 

[Uranus Pink]

Most modern artillery that is not a mortar or rocket launcher is capable of direct fire. The problem is if your artillery is having to do direct fire somebody fucked up somewhere.

The M777 for example actually has a specific ammunition type for Direct Fire. Its essentially a massive buckshot round that fires hundreds of little steel balls at high velocity in a cone radiating from the muzzle. Guaranteed to ruin any advancing infantry formations day.

More likely artillery crews will use whatever they've already loaded into the chamber and their regular ammo for direct fire. As the crews won't have time to go scrambling to find the "just in case" ammo that's if they brought any.

 

[Snekposter]

US Post-WWII tanks up to the Abrams IIRC (and I believe removed in the A2 version of the M60) had instrumentation to allow them to be turned into indirect fire artillery pieces if needed due to experiences in WWII. I'm curious if the T-55 has similar sights or if its going to be Smedvka.

Na, the Sherman actually had those indirect fire sights, and the platoon command and his 2iC were even issued tri-pod mounted spotting telescopes so they could observe and coordinate fire while dismounted. We even used tank destroyers in indirect fire roles like in Italy where there weren't a whole lot of tanks for them to fight. And of course the 105mm variant of the Sherman that was intended for close support mounted a 105mm howitzer. Before anyone asks what the differences are between WW2 and later... gun size and velocity.

That olive green box around the gun existed to keep the crew from accidentally getting too close while it fired, and as you can probably guess the seats weren't directly behind it. So you could elevate it all the way to 25 degrees. Which is of course suboptimal but tolerable, especially since that 75mm had limited muzzle velocity. The M60 could only elevate its 105mm M68 cannon to 19 degrees before the gun would starting hitting things inside the tank due to its much increased size, and of course between that and the much increased velocity your ability to fire over anything, and more importantly hit what's behind said obstacle, is non-existent.

 

[Ghostse]

Independence movements existed, but they still exist in Russia today in places like Yakutia, Tuva, and, yes, even Chechnya. When the Soviets collapse, people openly wondered how far the collapse would go, and if places like Tuva would break away as well. Chechnya tried, but the Russians forced them back in. Russia won't have the power or stomach for something like that again if it starts breaking up again.

Chechnya is about the only place its possible because they have some smoldering independence, but again, the people currently at the reins have been so completely bought & sold they have no interest in rocking the boat - their people are being used as cannon fodder, but not their friends/family. They are in complete control, the Russian security services operate to keep any threats to their power in check. Oligarch crumbs keep them living large.
Who cares if the people live in hovels as long as you live in a mansion with servants, and have power with no credible threats to topple you? Why would you rock that boat for "independence"?

Main issue Chechnya has is they are too small and no international senpai to support them.
The Baltics (aka the other, bad slavs) were sick of being second class citizens and had been rabble rousing for independence (and occasionally getting something close) for generations. Tuva has been cucked to Moscow since there was a Tsar.

Again, the other places/ethnicities would need functional, viable independence movements before they could hope to have leaders who aren't buck broken moscow simps. Unless it is an external entity imposing terms, you are several long steps away from the Russian Federation fragmenting.

Which, going back to the original point: That's why anyone positing an internally sourced Russian Federation break up is talking crazy talk, huffing high-potency cope. The only way whoever is in charge of Russia loses control is if they abused the various other leaders badly enough to make them consider other alternatives. As long the KGB - its still the fucking KGB just with a different name - is operating and dealing with any threats to loyalist leaders harshly, those leaders will simp for Moscow because doing so keeps them in power.

Even if Total Muscovite Death happens in Ukraine, Even if Putin Strokes out tomorrow, the KGB's operations won't be affected.

A power apparatus that is largely tied to Putin and Putin alone, and otherwise is rife with corruption and barely functional. Nazi Germany would have faced the same problem had Hitler won World War II but died later. The entire state apparatus was tied to his persona alone, not necessarily the office of Fuhrer, and Hitler went out of his way to create overlapping responsibility and pit organizations against each other to ensure that he alone would be the center of the state. Putin largely operates the same way. And just like Hitler, he has no clear successor. Everyone around him is merely a yesman and a patsy. So when he dies, chaos will erupt just because there will be no clear heir to his legacy and everybody hates everybody else.

Hitler is a bad example because Hitler was largely incompetent but used his charisma to surround himself with competent people and then keep them at each other's throats. Additionally the people he surrounded himself with were Germans who have a permanent hard hardon for rigid, clear hierarchy. If he had prevailed in WWII (at least as far as the bounds of "controlling Continental Europe + bare minimum depleting the USSR to a non-threat") such that he would have died of natural-enough causes and a successor needed found, there would have been some Halls of Power skullduggery between the main three. Military High Command would have sided with whoever came out on top.

Putin has no sure successor - Though by no means a sure thing I'd argue Medvedev has probably the strongest claim to the throne, and given he's prove himself a loyal simp who was a puppet the top slot for a while and then quietly handed it back with no complaints, so the Oligarchs will back but his ascension. And unlike Hitler all of Putin's inner circle are incompetent yesmen. But while Medvedev tries to grab the brass from any other challengers, all the state bureaucracies will continue to headed by the same people currently running them. They will shamble along just fine without Putin.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Yeah, they were made into a Brigade a couple months ago. The Wikipedia title for Azov has even been changed to Azov Brigade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade

Azov Battalion has evolved! It's now an Azov Brigade! Farm another 15,000 Vatniks and it will evolve into Azov Division.

 

[Clownish]

MORE КОНТАКТ!!!!​

 

[mindlessobserver]

MORE КОНТАКТ!!!!​

View attachment 5068036

Ngl I love this meme

 

[CuzinEd]

The Ukrainians are rigging buildings up with explosives like they would for demolition. They evacuate the people inside if there are any and then they rig it up with explosives. They wait fir the Russians to go inside and then blow it up. This means the building comes crashing down on them. This is pretty crazy. I have heard they have managed to get rid of a lot of Wagner soldiers this way.

But I see this as a double edge sword. The Ukrainians should keep in mind that whatever they do to the Russians the Russians will do to them. It might be funny when you do it to someone but it's not so funny when people do it to you. Just a little food for thought.

This also means the Ukrainians won't be able to use the buildings as cover. Everyone will have to stand out in the street and shoot at each other.

I saw this on JewTube today and thought that it was pretty funny. This guy is a high-profile right-libertarian and he tries to draw a connection between Covid policy and Ukraine to shill his new book. If you dislike Covid lockdowns, you should oppose everything the state does. With this kind of logic, it's only a matter of time until libertarians start to eat shit to pwn the political-medical establishment that is suspiciously critical of eating shit. The sperging about Covid also seems hypocritical since there were lockdowns in Russia and even a 'vaccine passport' at the height of Covid. Of course, they can still trust the Russian politicians who were also wrong about Covid.

Actually, the Covid stuff is only how he's selling it. The book is just transcripts from his show, a transcript from a libertarian debate forum, and, for some reason, the transcript of a speech that a state senator from Maine gave. It's mostly the old Mearsheimer stuff mixed in with "America bad." There are also takes from Douglas Macgregor about how Russian victory is right around the corner, so we shouldn't even bother helping Ukraine, not that it would matter anyway, which is why we constantly hear that we shouldn't send a single gun.

Americans have been rejecting Libtertardianism since the 80's. Libertardianism was just a pressure relieve valve for angry white Americans. That's been replaced by Trump MAGA and a rise in nationalist populism.

MORE КОНТАКТ!!!!​

View attachment 5068036

Someone needs to tell the Ukrainians that these are modern Western vehicles, and they don't need ERA blocks stuck all over them. The Bradley is not supposed to be a tank. All that extra weight probably won't be good for the engines.

 

[Snekposter]

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/chinese-military-operations-in-taiwan.162592/

The same Kiwifarms experts in military tactics that assured us the Russians would beat Ukraine faster than the US beat Iraq are all there telling their expert predictions on what would happen should China invade Tawian. It's like a convention for the most inaccurate fortune tellers.

Honestly even if they did invade directly, people have some pretty major misunderstandings about how amphibious landings work. Once a beach head has been established, that's the end of the amphibious operations, and from that point on, pretty much any ship can be used to bring in more forces and equipment. Likewise, you're not really talking about a whole ton of defenders in this context. Taiwan has maybe 200,000 total forces in its military (can't find clear numbers on this). They're operating on mostly US doctrine which means of that, optimistically, 20,000 to 30,000 are actually combat arms forces. Taiwan has a coast line of 973.1 miles, so assuming the soldiers are spread evenly out, that's about 21 soldiers per mile of coast line. Obviously that's not the case, and they most likely have set garrisons which are meant to act as QRF when a beach landing is detected with no hard garrison actually fortified on the beaches themselves other than in certain locations. This means if China does do an amphibious landing, there's a solid chance that not even a shot will actually be fired during the actual landings if China manages to catch them off guard, and because Taiwan has highways right next to most of its coast line, Chinese forces could very rapidly secure a large chunk of territory before Taiwanese forces even manage to mobilize.

The mountains of Taiwan really are a bigger terrain obstacle than the beaches. If Taiwanese forces pulled back to them they likely could force China into a long drawn out fight. Odds are though if China invades, Taiwan will pull its forces back into the cities in hopes of China actually giving a fuck about collateral damage, though given the nature of insectoids, that probably wouldn't be a good idea.

That has to to be one of the worst takes I have ever seen. Clearly the man who posted that has never, ever looked at an actual map of Taiwan.

And I had a big old post typed up but the forum software ate it. Sigh.

 

[RodgerDodger]

I'm guessing the M-47 and M-48 had the artillery sights. Imagine putting artillery sights on a tank and having to make a dirt ramp for them to elevate the gun. The Russians want to use the T-55 as an SPG. Each time they fire they have to move to avoid counter battery fire. That means they will need new ramps. It's going to be a bitch.

The question becomes why would they feel the need to use T-55’s that way? Are they actually running low on artillery tubes or ammo? Because the T-55 is going to be a huge problem on the modern battlefield. Even the absolute oldest shit running around out there was still designed to at a minimum kill a T-55. If you’re using the T-55 for direct fire artillery rounds it’s great. if maybe you’re planning on stopping a Polish Cavalry charge? But Man Portable ATGM’s still out range the T-55‘s gun. Modern artillery and drones are shredding T-72’s from above. How long does anyone think a T-55 would last? Deploying T-55’s reeks more of “being seen to be doing something” rather than actually serving any practical or effective combat purpose.

 

[Blatant hypocrite]

That has to to be one of the worst takes I have ever seen. Clearly the man who posted that has never, ever looked at an actual map of Taiwan.

And I had a big old post typed up but the forum software ate it. Sigh.

The sum total of strategy being discussed is "throw ideas and see what sticks".

What if they do an amphibious landing? Whoops, no assault ships. What if they do a blockade then? Too many navies in that area. What if they issue a strongly worded statement that Taiwan is China? Oh, they did that many times. How about threatening nukes? Hmm...

Add in the fact that Taiwan has a conscription system to spam manpower in case of emergency. And they've been living under threat of invasion for a long time, since independence and even before. And the ruling party, despite being "soft" has continued to build military capabilities.

Nevermind, it's just a small country, what can they do? Just drop paratroops in key locations. Or shoot a whole bunch of missiles, you can cover the whole country with missiles. Worst comes to worst, just mobilize, right? They've hardly any will to fight anyway, they're all ethnically Chinese and their economy is tied to China's, their language is even Chinese. The West will never intervene because China sells them shit. Japan is totally not bloodthirsty and will pressure them to settle diplomatically.

This post is Ukraine-related because you can swap the words and it still works.

 

[mindlessobserver]

The question becomes why would they feel the need to use T-55’s that way? Are they actually running low on artillery tubes or ammo? Because the T-55 is going to be a huge problem on the modern battlefield. Even the absolute oldest shit running around out there was still designed to at a minimum kill a T-55. If you’re using the T-55 for direct fire artillery rounds it’s great. if maybe you’re planning on stopping a Polish Cavalry charge? But Man Portable ATGM’s still out range the T-55‘s gun. Modern artillery and drones are shredding T-72’s from above. How long does anyone think a T-55 would last? Deploying T-55’s reeks more of “being seen to be doing something” rather than actually serving any practical or effective combat purpose.

I could see them maybe having utility for entrenched positions where the damn thing is buried in to ground and exists as a fixed gun emplacement. Maybe from within its own concrete bunker. This could work to guard the approaches of Crimea where any Ukrainian push would have to follow a predictable and narrow route.

If they actually intend to use them as a maneuver unit then lol, good luck.