Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[draggs]

Can one of you military autists explain why DP rounds would be useful(not what DP rounds are)? Is Russian armor hard enough to justify its use?

They get more penetration so why wouldn't you want them

 

[Jewthulhu]

Can one of you military autists explain why DP rounds would be useful(not what DP rounds are)? Is Russian armor hard enough to justify its use?

DU is harder than your normal tungsten sabot penetrator, is self-sharpening, and is flammable. That means a DU penetrator is more likely to achieve penetration, do it easier, and causes more damage afterwords. The main reason you wouldn't want to use it is presumably the cost and production; it's a byproduct of weapons-grade uranium enrichment so that both limits who can produce it in quantities and drives up the cost compared to anything else.

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

Can one of you military autists explain why DP rounds would be useful(not what DP rounds are)? Is Russian armor hard enough to justify its use?

Because they are actually significantly cheaper (I want to say like 10-15x cheaper, unless you are the Brits and fucked yourself with a limited production, US-exported DU round) than tungsten with AT WORST equal penetration to tungsten (and arguably better penetration).

It was also DU rounds making the tops of Saddam's T-72s go sky-high in '93 and again in '03, despite Vatniks at the time claiming that those weren't REAL T-72s and the "Arabs were just using them wrong"

DU is harder than your normal tungsten sabot penetrator, is self-sharpening, and is flammable. That means a DU penetrator is more likely to achieve penetration, do it easier, and causes more damage afterwords. The main reason you wouldn't want to use it is presumably the cost and production; it's a byproduct of weapons-grade uranium enrichment so that both limits who can produce it in quantities and drives up the cost compared to anything else.

Its actually extremely cheap if you are the US of A.
You are basically sending nuclear waste downrange for the fraction of the cost of tungsten (which oh hey, China controls the most mines of) for equal or better penetration values.

 

[East_Clintwood]

Is Russian armor hard enough to justify its use?

Basically all modern tank armour is, unless you're attacking the top, which obviously is not how tank engagements generally go.

The main reason you wouldn't want to use it is presumably the cost and production;

You also forget how it's totally gonna poison everything and everyone and give them mega space cancer and shit /sneed

 

[Jewthulhu]

Its actually extremely cheap if you are the US of A.
You are basically sending nuclear waste downrange for the fraction of the cost of tungsten (which oh hey, China controls the most mines of) for equal or better penetration values.

Once you get into economies of scale, yeah. I'd still imagine tungsten would be cheaper, since, scale or not, gas centrifuges for processing Uranium are expensive and complex (which is why that tends to be the rate-limiting step in countries getting a nuclear capability).

You also forget how it's totally gonna poison everything and everyone and give them mega space cancer and shit /sneed

I mean, to be fair, being on the inside of a tank hit with a DU penetrator isn't the healthiest thing ever. It's not going to poison entire cities or give people Gulf War Syndrome, but inhaling uranium dust from inside an enclosed vehicle will likely cause cancer and other health issues (as seen in friendly-fire victims during the Gulf War).

 

[Ghostse]

Can one of you military autists explain why DP rounds would be useful(not what DP rounds are)? Is Russian armor hard enough to justify its use?

DU is Uranium 235. Tungsten's element number is 74. Iron's 26.
So DU is to Tungsten what Tungsten is to iron/steel.

The higher density means that the round "conserves" momentum better; it loses less energy when traveling and picks up kinect energy more readily from the explosive change that launches it. You can also up the charge that launches it, giving it more kinect energy. Its like throwing a whiffleball vs throwing a baseball.
It also transfers energy more completely, it "bounces" less on impact. Because it is heavier, with more inertia, it is less susceptible to ERA.

It is less that you "need" it for russian armor and more that if you shoot a Russian tank through a building or bunker, DU is going to have a higher change of just plowing through defensive cover and fucking up the target.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Once you get into economies of scale, yeah. I'd still imagine tungsten would be cheaper, since, scale or not, gas centrifuges for processing Uranium are expensive and complex (which is why that tends to be the rate-limiting step in countries getting a nuclear capability).

I mean, to be fair, being on the inside of a tank hit with a DU penetrator isn't the healthiest thing ever. It's not going to poison entire cities or give people Gulf War Syndrome, but inhaling uranium dust from inside an enclosed vehicle will likely cause cancer and other health issues (as seen in friendly-fire victims during the Gulf War).

I reckon when you're trying to shoot someone dead, giving them cancer is an acceptable side-effect.

 

[Cpt. Stud Beefpile]

If you knew where I'm coming from you would be worried about the sandniggers instead

When they sent some syrian rapefugees here they got scared and went back to fucking syria, not joking

How in the 7 smoking levels of hell is THAT possible?!?!?!

 

[Cool Dog Returns]

How in the 7 smoking levels of hell is THAT possible?!?!?!

No gibs, no bending over to shitslam, one of them got arrested for beating his daughter in public, etc...

 

[Fanatical Pragmatist]

No gibs, no bending over to shitslam, one of them got arrested for beating his daughter in public, etc...

Are you Polish?

IMO the Poles are doing a pretty good job at not bending over to austeres, not bending over to rainbow fags, and also concurrently not bending over to Putin's shitty Soviet LARP...

 

[Snekposter]

DU is harder than your normal tungsten sabot penetrator, is self-sharpening, and is flammable. That means a DU penetrator is more likely to achieve penetration, do it easier, and causes more damage afterwords. The main reason you wouldn't want to use it is presumably the cost and production; it's a byproduct of weapons-grade uranium enrichment so that both limits who can produce it in quantities and drives up the cost compared to anything else.

Its actually cheaper than tungsten precisely because its a waste byproduct. Its just extremely difficult to machine on account of the fact its volatile in dust form even by the standards of heavy metals, which is why only nations with both nuclear reactors and a modern industrial base such as the US, Israel, and France produce them in any quantity. I believe Russia has some extremely limited production of DU rounds, but obviously they're a bit irreplaceable since Russia and skilled workforce are antonyms.

The higher density means that the round "conserves" momentum better; it loses less energy when traveling and picks up kinect energy more readily from the explosive change that launches it. You can also up the charge that launches it, giving it more kinect energy. Its like throwing a whiffleball vs throwing a baseball.

Nope, its actually a bit less dense. But it does shed deformations much easier than tungsten, keeping the point nice and sharp as it passes through with minimal slowdown or deflection. Plus a nice jet of flaming metal dust is great for post-pen.

I reckon when you're trying to shoot someone dead, giving them cancer is an acceptable side-effect.

Its actually minimally radioactive to the point its a better neutron insulator than lead and the French sold it in nail polish for about a year or so. You still have heavy metal dust, but uh... you'd have that from tungsten anyways.

 

[Exterminatus]

What becomes of the Caucuses? The "Karabach" in the song " March of the new Army. Does Ukraine ignore the situation its fellow orthodox in Armenia and Georgia find themselves in, pressed hard by the muslim Turks and Azeris? Or does Ukraine give its hundreds of thousands of veteran soldiers something to do in the Karabach.

Honestly I don't think the Ukes would make a move if they come out of this the winners (completely kicking the Russians out and reclaiming Crimea).

The top priority of Ukraine would be getting into NATO quickly for that Article 5 protection to permanently close the door on Russia and the little green men.

Including getting western contractors and such in to rebuild the east a bigger pace since Donetsk and Luhansk have been so fucked by the Russians and traitor Ukrainians.

Perhaps you've heard of the dust-up involving Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator from South Carolina who recently met with Zelenskyy. Here's the story as of now.

This clip went viral with Graham saying, "And the Russians are dying. It's the best money we've ever spent."
View attachment 5141939

This seemingly bloodthirsty comment did not go over well with many people, including domestically. Russia in particular threw a tantrum. First, Margarita Simonyan, head of RT, more or less implied Graham should be assassinated, since "we have his address":

https://www.thedailybeast.com/head-of-rt-margarita-simonyan-calls-for-lindsey-grahams-assassination-after-edited-russia-comments

Archive

And Russia issued a meaningless warrant for his arrest for "Russophobic statements":

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/29/russia-issues-arrest-warrant-for-us-senator-lindsey-graham-a81316

Archive

But, wouldn't you know it, it turns out that the above clip is two sentences spliced together from different parts of the conversation, and aren't even in the right order. Here's a larger continuous clip with both sentences, where the "money spent" is simply for supporting Ukraine:
View attachment 5141944

Congratulations, Russia, you played yourself.

Seems like a semantics argument, American aid has undoubtedly increased the death toll of the Russians. But sending outdated shit to Ukraine is still a good use of tax dollars, I'd wager it probably is cheaper to send our old stock to Ukraine than it is to actually scrap it.

Yup. Same thing with the tanks; they'll be refurbished to a certain standard. Heck, we've been flying the B-52s seemingly forever, again, getting rebuilt/modified/updated. There isn't a single B-52 that isn't older than its' crew.

I'll be dead and gone by then but I bet the USAF will still be flying the B-52 in another 150 years.

They've made up their minds, they want to be a Western country. So that card was off the table; the only card left for Putin was force, violence. It was invade and force Ukraine to submit, or accept the inevitable permanent loss of that country. Russia historically is not squeamish about using bloodshed to impose their control where it's not wanted. Just look at Chechnya 20 years ago.

But I was told by the most astute political scholars on 4chan and kiwifarms that the overthrow of the Russian puppet was just fake and gay. Just look at how Ukraine welcomed their Russian saviors in February of last year....oh.

Are you Polish?

IMO the Poles are doing a pretty good job at not bending over to austeres, not bending over to rainbow fags, and also concurrently not bending over to Putin's shitty Soviet LARP...

The Poles and Magyars have been interesting throughout this whole thing, usually they're tied at the hip on shitting on the EU yet when it comes to Russia/Ukraine the Poles are steadfast with telling the Russians to fuck off and die while the Magyars keep begging Putin to poz their negholes.

 

[East_Clintwood]

I'd wager it probably is cheaper to send our old stock to Ukraine than it is to actually scrap it.

A while back the US sold the Iraqi Army ~1000 M113s, and they touted the fact that doing so ultimately help save the US a bunch of cash

https://defense-update.com/20130702_m113s_to_iraq.html

“For the U.S., we divested ourselves of 1,026 M113s, most of which were incurring storage costs at Sierra Army Depot (Calif.) for close to 20 years. Demilitarizing that many vehicles can be cost-prohibitive. Using the [Foreign Military Sales] process ultimately saves the U.S. money.” The estimated U.S. cost avoidance for the storage and demilitarization of the 1,026 M113s is $31 million.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Why 2025? whats with that year?

Great Power wars rarely exceed 4 years in length, because by the time the 4th year roles around the inevitable is "inevitable" and the losing side either throws in the towel or breaks completely. War economies and the political pressure that results from protracted slaughter do not lend themselves to wars lasting longer then this unless there is some other high purpose involved. i.e, Religion. By 2025, if Russia has not achieved what it wanted, it will be willing to take what it can get, because come 2026 it may not get anything at all.

 

[Snekposter]

unless there is some other high purpose involved. i.e, Religion

And this is a Slav on Slav war that has mobilized the churches on both sides. And we all know killing other Slavs is pretty much a religion to those guys, too.

 

[MS Paint Gigachad]

I mean, to be fair, being on the inside of a tank hit with a DU penetrator isn't the healthiest thing ever. It's not going to poison entire cities or give people Gulf War Syndrome, but inhaling uranium dust from inside an enclosed vehicle will likely cause cancer and other health issues (as seen in friendly-fire victims during the Gulf War).

I mean, to be fair, being on the inside of a tank hit with a Tungsten penetrator isn't the healthiest thing ever. It's not going to poison entire cities or give people Gulf War Syndrome, but being in a vehicle which is being destroyed will likely cause burns and other health issues.

Yes, getting hit by depleted uranium aint healthy. But is it really so bad compared to the alternative?

 

[Ghostse]

But sending outdated shit to Ukraine is still a good use of tax dollars, I'd wager it probably is cheaper to send our old stock to Ukraine than it is to actually scrap it.

As @East_Clintwood said, this is old stock we're sending. The Bradley is being retired (counter argument: The M1113 has been 'being retired' for something like 50 years at this point), we sent them some M1A1 abrams that could be refitted but it doubtful those see combat.

And remember when they are authorizing aid packages, this the MSRP of the equipment when new (and with a service package) and not the actual cost of the system.

 

[mindlessobserver]

And this is a Slav on Slav war that has mobilized the churches on both sides. And we all know killing other Slavs is pretty much a religion to those guys, too.

Somehow I doubt that the Russian Church is really a cornerstone of the day to day lives of the people in Russia these days. Especially since Kiril made it abundantly obvious he is nothing more then a Kremlin Stooge. To push back against the "lol retard vatnik" narrative around here a little bit, people give too little credit to the Russian peoples awareness of what is happening. They KNOW what is happening. They just feel there is nothing they can do to stop it.

Its no wonder the Orthodox Communion is a hairs breadth from Schism with the Russian church. Eastern Orthodoxy is at a fundamental level an insurgent branch of the Christian Church. It exists to defy power. The Power of the Muslims. The power of the Roman Papacy. The power of the Asiatic Hoards. Its not a branch of Christianity that lends itself to servile obedience. Yet that is what the Russian Church seems to demand these days. And everyone knows its a lie.

This is not a religious war by any stretch. There is not a single mobik in Ukraine who goes to sleep believing he is in Ukraine because God wills it.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Somehow I doubt that the Russian Church is really a cornerstone of the day to day lives of the people in Russia these days.

It's really not, it's mostly babushkas who attend church, most Russians who claim to be Christian don't know a thing about it.
It's just like being Russian, you just are and that's it, contemplating the meaning of such things is not in their nature. But for some reason they take great pride in it regardless.
Which is why ROC has authority and why it still exists as another tool to control the masses. It's kind of contradictory if you think about it. But on the other hand, it's people who doesn't really think much who's the prime target for manipulation.

I'm not shitting on religion in general, just to clarify. I'm just wary of organized religion that results in abominations the likes of ROC.

 

[Ghostse]

I'm just wary of organized religion that results in abominations the likes of ROC.

There's a joke/parable I like to tell when discussing trusting fellow Christians.

Once there was a backwoods preacher so filled with the Holy Spirit, just by asking for God's power to flow through him, he could convert even the most obstinate atheist and make the most unrepentant sinners fall to their knees crying for God to forgive them. One day, when walking toward the next backwoods town full of souls in need of revival, he go lost and wandered into the path of a hungry bear.
The preacher was fit, but unfamilar with the woods, and despite his best efforts, the bear was gaining - when the preacher got his foot caught in a root, and fell down, his ankle sprained. The hungry bear was charging him, and the preacher decided it was worth a shot to use his God-given powers to save souls to try to save his skin. So as the bear bellowed and reared up before him, he held his hand out the bear and called out "OH GREAT LORD! I ask you to use the power you have bestowed on me to make this bear a good Christian!"
Well, that hungry bear stopped bellowing, and got a real puzzled look on its face. And then just like a sinner at a revival meeting, wouldn't you know it, that bear dropped to its knees at the preacher's feet, clasped its paws together, and began to pray loudly:
"Oh great and merciful heavenly Father, I thank you for this meal which I am about to receive"...

The moral of course being that being Christian, or proclaiming ones self Christian, doesn't guarantee goodness or that their actions will be to anyone's benefit but their own.