Old school spinsters - The old women in families that never married and never had kids

[NoReturn]

Nobody likes people like that because everything “nice” they do is just a debt to be repaid at a later date, even if that “nice” thing is something nobody asked them to do in the first place.

It's manipulative and predatory. Those sorts are banking on social pressure form other people to influence the behavior of their targets.
If someone hears "I did X for them and they aren't doing Y!" usually people's kneejerk reactions is "How could they! What an ingrate!"
Nuance and detail are their enemy.

the economic reality is very rough. Ironically lots of people my age can't start their own family because their finances are tied to taking care of elders. Not something thats even talked about often.

Filial responsibility laws are a ticking time bomb as the boomers age.
They sold out their children and wonder why they aren't getting grandkids.

 

[Android raptor]

I said this in the lesbian thread, but there’s something that certain men seem to take personally about the existence of women who have no interest in being with men.

There’s a definite bitterness to those comments. They say you’ll be miserable, but it always seems to have this air of “I really hope you’ll be miserable because it would serve you right”. It’s different from the way women talk about incels.

Plus they're just projecting their own fears about dying alone and having zero accomplishments in life outside of reproducing (and reproducing isn't even really an accomplishment, look at the Sammieverse).

 

[Madame Souza]

I love this thread, happy it exists. I had three Irish great-aunts (all died before my time) who never married and lived together in their adopted American town their whole lives. The one who lived the longest I've heard described as always having "a can of Hamm's in one hand and a smoke in the other." I've not heard her described as a "tough ol' bird," specifically, but I feel like the sentiment has been highly implied. Compared to the kinds of lives most Irish-American women with miner husbands lived in the early 20th century, those spinster women probably had a pretty good time.

As a female woman who is almost 30 and very single and very put off by men in general and unwilling to put in the legwork to find wlw to date, I did some googling on the history of spinsterhood lately and found this essay, "A philosophical, historical, and moral essay on old maids. By a friend to the sisterhood" by an English Mr. William Haley, published sometime in the late 18th or early 19th century (this resource doesn't say exactly, it just gives his birth/death years as 1745-1820). This is the first of three volumes; I haven't read the other two, but intend to sometime. The latter half-ish of the first features many profiles of women he knew who fell into this category that are very worth reading for anyone who's interested in English history (especially for any Austenites, as the time period is roughly the same).

It's really fascinating, especially as I went into it expecting it to be laden with old-timey English misogyny and found it to instead be both sympathetic and at least somewhat kind throughout (although of course it's still pretty misogynistic and patronizing by contemporary standards); I'd concur that Mr. Haley was as much of a "friend to the sisterhood" as any man at that time could possibly have been.

Choice quotes:

Spoiler: spoilered for length

"In conversing with people of all ages, particularly of the female sex, I perceived they had very unsettled and discordant notions of the aera, which I hoped they would enable me to ascertain. The misses of twenty considered all their unmarried friends, who had passed their thirtieth year, as absolute Old Maids; those of thirty supposed the aera to commence at about forty-five; and some ladies of fifty convinced me how differently they thought upon the subject, by calling others, about three or four years younger than themselves, by the infantine appellation of girls; from whence I presumed they would advance the aera I speak of to the age of sixty at least."

^ i laughed at the fact that even a 19th century man considered it infantilizing to refer to grown women as "girls," and yet here we are all, these years later, with 65 year old troons referring to themselves as such. Also that 20 year old zoomies are as terrified of aging as 19th century ladies were and truly see 30 as a death knell. The more things change, etc

"At the age, then, when ladies allow themselves to be forty, I desire my fair and single friends to consider themselves as standing, if not within the gates, at least upon the threshold of that community of which I treat. I request them to recollect what qualities and conduct will most become the character they are preparing to support; what will most effectually protect it from ridicule and reproach, alleviate its vexations, and encrease its comforts. These are surely points, which it is their interest to study: it is my ambition to assist them in the attainment of this useful knowledge; and, if I am not deceived by that species of benevolent illusion, to which a philosopher is peculiarly subject, they may render themselves both wiser and happier by the frequent perusal of these little volumes."

^honestly, it's kind of sweet. He genuinely wanted to help those ladies feel good about themselves and their lives in a time when the whole world assumed those things were and should have been impossible for perpetually single women. Is William Haley the OG gay best friend?

"The idea has led me, in my solitary and thoughtful hours, to meditate on the situation of the Old Maid; and I have said to myself, in such philosophical reveries, What can I do for this blasted tree? I cannot, indeed, transplant, and cause it to blossom; but I will at least endeavour to raise a little fence around it, which may take off, in some measure, from its neglected appearance, and not suffer the wild asses, who wander near it, to kick and wound it, as they so frequently do, in the wanton gambols of their awkward vivacity."

Even sweeter, he wanted to help change societal perception of single women altogether. As the kids said, like ten years ago, I stan Mr. Haley.

"( ...) she seems utterly destitute of all adequate defence against her most provoking and most active enemy, the incessant impertinence of indelicate ridicule. How often does the amiable Old Maid smart under the flippant jocularity of the unfeeling rustic merchant, or the boorish 'squire, who never fail to comment on the variations of her countenance, repeatedly wonder why she does not get her a husband, and very kindly hint to her, with equal delicacy of sentiment and language, that if she does not take great care, she will slip out of the world without answering the end of her creation!"

Holy shit, again, the more things change, etc!!! This one might have to be unspoilered. Too funny to be hidden.

"Cosmelia will, I fear, be an unfortunate example of this melancholy truth. It has been the perverse destiny of this lady, to lose all the advantages that might be expected from superior endowments. She has appeared, through life, to despise the powers she possessed, and endeavoured to fix her empire by those she had not. In youth, her person and features were supremely handsome; but at nineteen she was a beautiful pedant, whose tongue incessantly counteracted the influence of her eyes. She then neglected her dress, in a disgusting degree, to devote herself, with an absurd assiduity, to the acquisition of languages. These, indeed, she attained; but the chief effect she produced by her learning was, to frighten her young acquaintance, and astonish an old schoolmaster by her marvellous intimacy with the dialects of Greece.

Cosmelia is now forty-seven. Her mind is enriched by a long commerce with the
best of ancient and modern authors, and her person is still very handsome; but her beauty and her knowledge seem to be rendered ineffectual by her rage for appearing young. She now labours to conceal her erudition, with an affectation superior to what she formerly shewed in displaying it. Notwithstanding her early disposition to pedantry, in the tender graces of epistolary writing she is hardly inferior to the marchioness de Sevigné; but this enchanting ta|lent she very rarely exerts; for she unluckily thinks, that, at her present time of life, a smooth skin is more worthy of care and improvement, than a lively imagination.

Instead, therefore, of employing her pen in the composition of such letters as would delight her friends, she deserts her correspondents, and devotes a great portion of her time to the more interesting occupation of tickling her own forehead with a greasy feather.

Qualified as she is to receive pleasure from books, she hardly ever adds a volume to her collection; but expends as much money as might purchase an elegant library, in amassing all the various washes that are said either to give or to preserve a very delicate complexion. She examines the advertisements for a new lotion for the face, with as much avidity as the curious Old Maid discovers in looking into the list of marriages. Having tried all that the newspapers have celebrated, from the Milk of Roses to the Olympian Dew; as their effects, however, seldom correspond with her wishes, she is often tempted to try new inventions of her own, and she fre|quently watches the simmer of a little pipkin, with as much eagerness and an|xiety as the alchymist used to exhibit over the vessel that he expected to teem with his imaginary gold: I might add, indeed, with similar success; for, whether devices of this kind have little or no efficacy in themselves, or whether her raging passion for a clear countenance makes the strongest cosmetic appear defective, she never at|tempts to render herself more fair, but she grows more discontented with her com|plexion. Such attempts, by leading her to look more frequently in her mirror, only confirm her more and more in that most grievous apprehension, that she cannot ap|pear quite so young as she wishes to be thought. This apprehension seems to haunt her like an evil genius, and is for ever marring all the natural grace, both of her words and actions. In moments when she had just enchanted a little party of friends by her various talents, I have seen this un|fortunate foible start up, and dissolve the spell of pleasure in an instant; so that the persons who had for some time heard and beheld her with the highest admiration, began to survey her with an odd mixture of pity and derision, which nothing but the deference due to her sex and character in|duced them to conceal. This oppressive dread of not appearing young, which is, in|deed, for ever present to her fancy, was re|markably conspicuous the other day, when she sat for her picture to oblige a relation. When she cast her eye upon the sketch, after the first sitting, in which the painter, to secure a likeness, had given peculiar strength to his outline, her vexation arose to agony; she apprehended, that all the spectators of her portrait would read the horrid words, forty-seven, in every line of her countenance. This idea continued to prey on her mind to such a degree, that when she ascended a second time into the sitting chair of the painter, her features ex|hibited more visible terror, than those lovely victims, Anne Boleyn and the Queen of Scots, are said to have discovered when they mounted the block.

unspoilered quotes, because they're my favorite:

How often does the amiable Old Maid smart under the flippant jocularity of the unfeeling rustic merchant, or the boorish 'squire, who never fail to comment on the variations of her countenance, repeatedly wonder why she does not get her a husband, and very kindly hint to her, with equal delicacy of sentiment and language, that if she does not take great care, she will slip out of the world without answering the end of her creation!

LOL. LMAO. LOL. The contemporary incels and garden-variety misogynists think they're so clever with this insult, as though it's not 200+ years old!

Qualified as she is to receive pleasure from books, she hardly ever adds a volume to her collection; but expends as much money as might purchase an elegant library, in amassing all the various washes that are said either to give or to preserve a very delicate complexion. She examines the advertisements for a new lotion for the face, with as much avidity as the curious Old Maid discovers in looking into the list of marriages. Having tried all that the newspapers have celebrated, from the Milk of Roses to the Olympian Dew; as their effects, however, seldom correspond with her wishes, she is often tempted to try new inventions of her own, and she frequently watches the simmer of a little pipkin, with as much eagerness and anxiety as the alchymist used to exhibit over the vessel that he expected to teem with his imaginary gold: I might add, indeed, with similar success; for, whether devices of this kind have little or no efficacy in themselves, or whether her raging passion for a clear countenance makes the strongest cosmetic appear defective, she never at|tempts to render herself more fair, but she grows more discontented with her com|plexion.

^You've heard of the Madonna-Whore Complex, get ready for the Madonna Complex: the more you obsess over your appearance and try to stop that which cannot be stopped (aging), the more miserable you become and the older you look (or think you look; effect is the same).

If a worthy spinster has a talent for music, let her adhere to such graceful instruments as belong to her sex, and avoid the example of an English lady, whom I saw, many years ago, displaying to her acquaintance the unfeminine accomplishment of beating a drum.

I love that woman. I'd leave flowers at her grave if she had been named and I were a Britbong.

 

[Android raptor]

It's crazy how some men have been getting their panties in a bunch about women choosing to not marry/have kids for hundreds of years.

The gender of rationality and logic, everyone.

 

[Male Idiot]

I first just wanted to observe this fine in house milk we got, but I have to raise my scientific doubt about poor=faggot.

Usually the dumb and the poor reproduce the most, and homosexuality had been the vice of the rich and the pampered.

Perhaps it differs in big cities opposed to rural areas, maybe dependent on population density.

 

[Android raptor]

I first just wanted to observe this fine in house milk we got, but I have to raise my scientific doubt about poor=faggot.

Usually the dumb and the poor reproduce the most, and homosexuality had been the vice of the rich and the pampered.

Perhaps it differs in big cities opposed to rural areas, maybe dependent on population density.

BP isn't the Thunderdome, don't expect the same reaction here sperging about icky gay people and similar faggotry

 

[Male Idiot]

I walk, thundurrdome follows.

But I only wanted to point out that poverty seems like a bad indicator for faggotry worldwide.

If the two were linked, Africa would be much less populated, and it was popular in prosperous Greek places in the past, but for example it was very unpopular in communist regimes, not known for their vast wealth.

Perhaps there is an uptick in cases in the US low classes, but that could be due to heightened drug use causing the brains of offsprings to get fried.

So just saying that sounds like a false connection, that's all, carry on.

 

[Android raptor]

Pretty sure it's just that people who are already hated for being poor are more likely to be open about being LGBT, since society already hates them as-is.

This doesn't apply to violently homophobic dictatorships and theocracies where being openly gay could end in rape or murder.

 

[NoReturn]

Pretty sure it's just that people who are already hated for being poor are more likely to be open about being LGBT, since society already hates them as-is.

But I only wanted to point out that poverty seems like a bad indicator for faggotry worldwide.

I think you're both right.
Think about it this way. Poor people, by and large and independent of location, tend to have more social emphasis on the inclusion of people who form a social "net", where wealthier people see social emphasis more about exclusion of non-members and the value of connections within a select group.
In the west, being a gbt buttfucker can increase social connectedness by value of a personal identifier. "Oh you're gay? Ok, here's a community ready and waiting for you! Come join! We have friends and lovers and resources and job connections just waiting for you!"
That's not the case in other places. If there isn't a ready-built "community" to join just because you crave dick, then there's no real value to joining it as a poor person.

 

[Android raptor]

Plus if your family is homophobic and poor, there's usually zero incentive for a queer person to not GTFO and move where they can openly be who they are. Meanwhile gay kids of rich homophobes usually are tied to their shitty parents by money, and have to keep them happy to not get cut off.

 

[AWizard]

I asked this in another thread in another subforum but the thread kinda self-immolated before anyone answered, and I guess this is an appropriate thread to ask it in:

Here's a question (that I may repeat for a self-contained thread) for (mainly millennial) femanons, nonas/nonnies, female geeks/nerds/dorks/outcasts and catladies/femcels: Where are you and how are you doing?
Cos like, geek culture becoming mainstream (and other more significant reasons) really fucked up male geeks/outcasts to the point where a large number of them are either trooning out or turning into alt-right reactionaries and potential shooters. I don't really know what happened to their female counterparts, I don't know if it had a similar effect or if it was a non-issue and was actually positive for them. I doubt "Chad" has a harem of "low social status" girls and I don't know if they're just as housebound as their male counterparts.

Context: From the unfuckable hate nerds article thread, which went in the direction you'd expect it to go here. I'm curious, has the gentrification of geekdom (and the internet), the gamification of relationships and atomisation affected female geeks/outcasts in the same way? Again, mainly asking millennials, since the internet seems to be, in a way, void of older people.

 

[Android raptor]

I don't think so, though I'm also mainly in fandoms for niche shit that will never be mainstream.

There are a lot of girls and women trooning out, but I think the motives for that are a bit more than just wanting to become the yaoi/kpop (that might be the fantasy they're trying to skinwalk, but the reasons they're trying to become a fantasy pretty boy is usually some deeper shit like internalized misogyny and trying to escape sexualization IMO).

Plus trooning out is w/e compared to becoming a mass shooter or hate monger. Unless the trooning is to hide a shady sex crime-filled past, which doesn't really seem to happen with girls.

 

[NoReturn]

I asked this in another thread in another subforum but the thread kinda self-immolated before anyone answered, and I guess this is an appropriate thread to ask it in:

Context: From the unfuckable hate nerds article thread, which went in the direction you'd expect it to go here. I'm curious, has the gentrification of geekdom (and the internet), the gamification of relationships and atomisation affected female geeks/outcasts in the same way? Again, mainly asking millennials, since the internet seems to be, in a way, void of older people.

Ok, so, I think the answer is: They're doing better than the men.
Sure, some of them did end up like the woman in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePh2q9WitEA

You can tell there's something "wrong" with her, but that may have always been there. She may just be an autist and has always been an autist and will remain an autist. It can be cringe, but by and large they're noticeable-but-harmless.
Others are more "normal" but they're still a little "off" I count myself in this category. Even the hardcore yaoi fangirl I knew once has a normal job and a normal life now. Your interests and media background are off from other people, but it doesn't consume your whole identity. Like, I still read manga and watch anime for fun, but I'm picky about what I spend my time on and I don't talk about it work or anything.
I can't say the same for the guys I knew from that world 10-20 years ago (fugg I'm old). They don't seem to be doing as well, and honestly I think a huge part of it is the male vs. female socialization thing we spoke about in the "female autists" thread.
i.e. On average, women have a "drive" to be social, even if they're really bad at it. An woman is going to feel more social "pain" when they can't get along with or relate to others ("I'm doing something wrong but I don't know how to fix it") compared to a man, and I think this is the split we saw happening over time.

 

[Android raptor]

Women are also more likely to seek psychiatric help than men for shit like depression due to socialization, which I think is also a factor.

A lot of those unfuckable hate nerds probably have serious mental illnesses they're dealing with in the absolute worst way possible.

 

[AWizard]

Ok, so, I think the answer is: They're doing better than the men.

I wouldn't be surprised, going off your socialisation theory. By that logic would you say most of them would be settled by now? And what of those who still are single (by circumstance rather than choice)?

They don't seem to be doing as well, and honestly I think a huge part of it is the male vs. female socialization thing

Would you not say that geekdom becoming part of the mainstream has screwed male geeks/outcasts over? In the past I feel like geek fandoms provided a level of community, both offline and online, that many oddballs may not have had otherwise, meeting "your people" so to speak. Right now, with no gatekeepers, lower barriers of entry and commitment (for instance, getting new anime in the old days by trading tapes in anime clubs), youtube and wikias, means that anybody with enough clout can come in take over your community and/or suck the life out of it.

There are a lot of girls and women trooning out, but I think the motives for that are a bit more than just wanting to become the yaoi/kpop

I'd say "becoming-the-gf" troonery is probably unique to male (geeks).

Plus trooning out is w/e compared to becoming a mass shooter or hate monger.

I wouldn't say it's w/e. On one hand I guess it's better than a bunch of dead people (though we've seen transfaggotry is not necessarily mutually exclusive with being an alt-right reactionary), but it's still an extreme course of action to take.

A lot of those unfuckable hate nerds probably have serious mental illnesses they're dealing with in the absolute worst way possible.

Ehhh, I find that things like depression have material causes, and unless you have a chemical imbalance or some kind of trauma, shit like pills and therapy are going to be useless. Depression is apparently still on the rise and that's probably due to the increasing stress that many people are put under in this society.

If your life sucks, if you cannot get by, if you cannot improve your life solely through your own means, it's logical reaction to be depressed. Pills would only treat the symptom.

I got more to say, but I'll save it for another post.

 

[NoReturn]

Would you not say that geekdom becoming part of the mainstream has screwed male geeks/outcasts over? In the past I feel like geek fandoms provided a level of community, both offline and online, that many oddballs may not have had otherwise, meeting "your people" so to speak. Right now, with no gatekeepers, lower barriers of entry and commitment (for instance, getting new anime in the old days by trading tapes in anime clubs), youtube and wikias, means that anybody with enough clout can come in take over your community and/or suck the life out of it.

Absolutely, and as you said, especially for men.
Generally speaking, boys and men make friends through shared interests, when that shared interest gets diluted to the point that "everyone has it" it ironically becomes more difficult to find someone to be friends with.
It's like you said, there are no more anime clubs when "everyone" watches anime, and when everyone "knows" comics from films like the Marvel franchise, it's going to be much harder to find someone with whom to nerd out about the actual comics.
I also really like your point about people with more clout and social "credit" coming in an "taking over" (even if they don't mean to, and have no malice about it). This kind of happened with cosplay for women, too. It went from fun-hobby for everyone and who gives a shit if you're dumpy, to "You need to be hot and also an extremely skilled seamstress."

I'd say "becoming-the-gf" troonery is probably unique to male (geeks).

Agreed. While we do see some fujos pooning out to live their yaoi fantasies, the "become the gf"-thing is so much more common that it's hardly a fair comparison.
(Also, where did that "male hole" essay from a few years ago go? I can't find it anymore.)

Ehhh, I find that things like depression have material causes, and unless you have a chemical imbalance or some kind of trauma, shit like pills and therapy are going to be useless. Depression is apparently still on the rise and that's probably due to the increasing stress that many people are put under in this society.

If your life sucks, if you cannot get by, if you cannot improve your life solely through your own means, it's logical reaction to be depressed. Pills would only treat the symptom.

Even then I think we as a society are using pills "wrong" because it's profitable to keep people on meds forever.
I forget where I originally heard this (probably /fit/, if I'm being honest), but pills work great if your default state is "fucked".
So if you are sick, or have a brain injury, or you're a drug baby, or something else like that, pills are great to get you back to "healthy" because they make you stable enough to where you can put in the work to figure out what's wrong with you and heal you, and that may take a really long time, especially if you're "sick" as a result of an unhealthy lifestyle catching up to you.

Spoiler: Getting off-topic

Let's consider two hypothetical people.

"Jordan" is fat. Her systemic inflammation and overall limited mobility make her depressed, and she's mature enough to admit this is the root cause of her depression, but given how very overweight she is, there is a physical element to her problems in addition to anything social going on in her life. Jordan's goal should be to get stable, and with the help of those pills, lose the weight, get healthy, and probably go to therapy to address why she is that way. She can taper off the meds when she's in a better place.

"Tracy" is mentally unwell. This is Tracy's default state, and his untreated mental illness makes him make poor decisions. We know he should be on meds, but depending on how crazy he actually is, he could actually get to a state where his crazy be treated with diet and exercise alone. It won't be pretty, though. He might end up on a very restrictive diet, or on supplements that he needs to treat the same way one would treat prescription meds. There's no point at which we can set Tracy free into the world to live like the average person, but meds can stablize him long enough to get us to the point of figuring out what his options really are.

I got more to say, but I'll save it for another post.

Keep going. I want to hear your thoughts.

 

[Android raptor]

A lot of people do have undiagnosed mental illness and trauma, especially neurodivergent people. I think that's also a big factor.

 

[AWizard]

This kind of happened with cosplay for women, too. It went from fun-hobby for everyone and who gives a shit if you're dumpy, to "You need to be hot and also an extremely skilled seamstress."

I can imagine cosplaying (before the normalfag takeover) to be a fun hobby, especially for...not necessarily ugly but (geekily) unconfident girls to both to be fashionable on their own terms and have fun dressing up as a character, not to mention the creative pleasure of making and designing your own custom dress/costume for a con. I would like to hear about how it has changed, cos I assume in the same way that a bunch of dudebros are now the commercial/popular face of certain geek hobbies, a similar replacement has taken place in cosplay for women.

Also, where did that "male hole" essay from a few years ago go?

The what?

A lot of people do have undiagnosed mental illness and trauma, especially neurodivergent people. I think that's also a big factor.

I'm not denying that it's a large factor, but only treating the mental illness/trauma will not solve the root cause (assuming it isn't a literal chemical imbalance). It would be like cleaning up a hobo but not integrating him into a community.

Keep going. I want to hear your thoughts.

When I get some time I'll post some more, most of it is just an expansion of the same things in the last post.

 

[NoReturn]

The what?

There was an essay floating around a while back of some yaoi fan talking about how the "male hole" was how she conceptualized gay sex. She didn't think of it as a butthole, she thought of it as this highly-erogenous separate thing.

I can imagine cosplaying (before the normalfag takeover) to be a fun hobby, especially for...not necessarily ugly but (geekily) unconfident girls to both to be fashionable on their own terms and have fun dressing up as a character, not to mention the creative pleasure of making and designing your own custom dress/costume for a con. I would like to hear about how it has changed, cos I assume in the same way that a bunch of dudebros are now the commercial/popular face of certain geek hobbies, a similar replacement has taken place in cosplay for women.

Someone who understands clothing and that side of it better than me could speak to it better (I only did cosplay for a convention like, twice) but I distinctly remember the people in cosplay changing over time. Way back in the early-2000s you could have, for example, a Samus who was a plain-looking woman under the helmet, but now you "have to" look like Zero-Suit-Samus underneath to do it.
There's also been a change in the culture, where previously you just attended the convention in costume, now the big cosplayers (or those looking to get their name out) attend primarily to take photos/take photos with people, and be an attraction to the convention in and of themselves.

 

[AWizard]

There was an essay floating around a while back of some yaoi fan talking about how the "male hole" was how she conceptualized gay sex. She didn't think of it as a butthole, she thought of it as this highly-erogenous separate thing.

...I see.

Someone who understands clothing and that side of it better than me could speak to it better (I only did cosplay for a convention like, twice) but I distinctly remember the people in cosplay changing over time. Way back in the early-2000s you could have, for example, a Samus who was a plain-looking woman under the helmet, but now you "have to" look like Zero-Suit-Samus underneath to do it.

The entry of the "insta-thots" would you say? Normalfag-friendly social media forcing it's way in? Somewhere in the very late 00s and early 10s?

There's also been a change in the culture, where previously you just attended the convention in costume, now the big cosplayers (or those looking to get their name out) attend primarily to take photos/take photos with people, and be an attraction to the convention in and of themselves.

There's a lot to talk about there, cons themselves are no longer really places of gathering more so than giant places of advertising now but I'm probably moving off-topic by a lot.

So to get back on topic: Do you think there's a equivalent increase of spinsters to the seemingly increasing number of male incels?