Anime/Manga - Discuss Japanese cartoons and comics here; NO CULTURE WAR DOOMPOSTING!

i feel like we are already there. Whenever i check out some show its all ugly cg coupled with uncanny rotoscope that makes me instantly nope out. The pool of good 2d animators is drying or the studios are just too kiked to want to do things that way anymore so endless ps2 cutscene looking anime it is.
CG is cheaper than hand drawn and producing an anime is financially risky to begin with. I think the trend going forward is that hand drawn is going to be the big budget option that will generally only be used in shows where studios are confident they'll get a return on their investment, or where they're willing to take a massive risk to chance a massive reward. Corner-cutting has been around as long as the industry has, this is just the latest form it's taken. And to be fair, if a show is well-directed at all they'll usually figure out a way to make CG look inoffensive at worst and even a net positive if they're creative enough about it. I would cite 86 as a good example of this.
 
and even a net positive if they're creative enough about it.
a good use of CG would be something like princess mononoke, the kind of CG that looks good would actually make the production even more expensive but cheap CG will always look way worse than cheap 2d, CG anime is like trannies, no matter how much they try to mimick the real thing it will never really pass.
 
I don't know why, but Dark Gathering gives me Disgaea vibes, probably it's the character design. Also so far I follow it, Helck, and Undead Girl Murder Farce (which seems to become a fun detective show).
 

Wow, this is Production I.G btw, not Orange. This is so ugly and not Cooly, or Fooly.
Not sure where it's said by Production IG.
It's by MontBlanc Pictures, which specializes in making advertisement and music videos, not even a typical anime studio. Not great.

prepare for this to be every anime from now on. Nothing but crappy motion captured CG forever.
I don't agree this doomposting, referring to what I've said above.
Same thing with Ex-Arm, the studio Visual Flight isn't even an anime studio.

Also, isn't FLCL somewhat a niche title? I don't see how it's being made would influence majority of anime industry.
I mean I probably remember or notice like 5 fully CGI anime or less being made per year, the ones being memeing on shitty CGI is less so.

Unless you also mean 2d anime with some CGI for animals (Golden Kamuy bear), monsters (Kaminaki) and mechanical stuffs (any mecha anime or just vehicles in general), I don't think that's a fair comparison to a fully CGI one.
 
CG is cheaper than hand drawn and producing an anime is financially risky to begin with. I think the trend going forward is that hand drawn is going to be the big budget option that will generally only be used in shows where studios are confident they'll get a return on their investment, or where they're willing to take a massive risk to chance a massive reward. Corner-cutting has been around as long as the industry has, this is just the latest form it's taken. And to be fair, if a show is well-directed at all they'll usually figure out a way to make CG look inoffensive at worst and even a net positive if they're creative enough about it. I would cite 86 as a good example of this.
I doubt this cause Japan unlike the states has balls for opposition and when anime is going to be 3dfied, you can expect a significant backlash. Ofc the weebs and coomers will take any goyslop which comes but its not going to be like 2006 and 07 when Dreamworks and Disney gaslit the entire western world into thinking 2d is too "high budget" and is "outdated" as a medium enabling them to shift the entire industry to 3d, the after effects of which have been fucking catastrophic as western art graduates cant even draw properly anymore much less animate something complex in 2d. Its really stunning how people fell from animating hair strands and 3 dimensional movement on paper in the Lion King and Prince of Egypt to Calarts. Its similar to how EA and couple other companies tried to gaslight gamers into the "Single Player is dead" train in an effort for them to make more money through monetization and online play. Japan is still going to stick to 2d for the most part cause they know how good 2d looks even if companies are going to fuck with the concept.
 
a good use of CG would be something like princess mononoke, the kind of CG that looks good would actually make the production even more expensive but cheap CG will always look way worse than cheap 2d, CG anime is like trannies, no matter how much they try to mimick the real thing it will never really pass.
Explains why so many Chinese CG animated shows look like absolute shit and why they choose to use CG in the first place.
 
CG is cheaper than hand drawn and producing an anime is financially risky to begin with. I think the trend going forward is that hand drawn is going to be the big budget option that will generally only be used in shows where studios are confident they'll get a return on their investment, or where they're willing to take a massive risk to chance a massive reward. Corner-cutting has been around as long as the industry has, this is just the latest form it's taken. And to be fair, if a show is well-directed at all they'll usually figure out a way to make CG look inoffensive at worst and even a net positive if they're creative enough about it. I would cite 86 as a good example of this.
I see people on the internet often parroting this side of argument, but not many actually mentioning how things are for the 2D animators themselves. How easy or difficult it is for studios to find/recruit/keep animators of a certain caliber.

According to this link:
アニメーターの平均年収は248万円です。これを12ヶ月で割るとおよそ20万円なので、そこまで少ない数字ではありませんが、大卒初任給程度の収入なので、結婚して家庭を支える立場となれば少し少ないと思うかもしれません。
-The average annual pay for an animator is of 2.48 million yen (roughly 200k a month). To put this in perspective, someone in HR (人事) will earn 5.06 million, about 4.30 million for a web designer/programmer, 3.33 million as a graphic designer/illustrator. While it heavily depends from person to person for this field, the average annual pay of a mangaka (漫画家) is said to be 4 million yen, and a mangaka assistant apparently gains about as much as an animator in comparison.

Working as a freelance is seemingly an even rougher road, being paid 200 yen per piece as a newbie. The amount of full-time employees or contract workers is rather limited.
雇用形態は大体が『フリーランス』や『業務委託』として働いています。
正社員や契約社員はわずかしかおらず、固定給をもらえる人は限られています。
フリーランスで働く場合の相場は、新人の動画アニメーター場合1枚200円と決して高くはありません。

Nevertheless to said it is a low income for the new blood in their twenties, and the article does mention that a lot of people just abandon this career halfway, so it is rather hard to cultivate many seasoned veterans in return.
一方で、離職率も非常に高い仕事なので経験のあるアニメーターは希少です。
仕事の大変さや収入を理由に多くの人が途中で仕事を辞めてしまうので、能力のあるアニメーターはあまり数が多くありません。
 
a good use of CG would be something like princess mononoke, the kind of CG that looks good would actually make the production even more expensive but cheap CG will always look way worse than cheap 2d, CG anime is like trannies, no matter how much they try to mimick the real thing it will never really pass.
This is something Miyazaki copied the staters for. Im gonna sperg here cause this is my favourite kind of animation but there were couple things in the late 80s and 90s which contributed to the animation renaissance. Two of the most important things being advance in technology and mature storytelling. The mature storytelling part is a bit of a postmodernism type thing where the stories told and the storytelling involved heavily plagiarized concepts, ideas and at times even adapted classical literature, with all the fucked up shit which came with that literature like slavery, genocide, dictatorship, grief and regret, addiction all that. Something similar happened with the 40s disney golden age which also did some of the same shit. In Japan that meant heavy focus on existentialism, extreme gore, horror, rape and the like with a lot of references to the atomic bombing campaign. The technology part is more interesting cause by the late 80s computers became quite good at handling graphics, primitive graphics. So what the animators did was make environments and environmental effects in 3d and characters animated on paper in 2d to streamline the process, what Disney patented as deep canvas. So in Lion king the pride rock and the wildebeests were 3d, in Hercules a lot of the vehicles and architecture was 3d, in Tarzan the vines and trees were in 3d, in Mononoke the Boar and other stuff was 3d, in Jin Roh the armors were 3d, Patlabor mechs stuff like that. This had a really interesting effect hitting that perfect spot between realism and expression while still looking amazing. The 3d environments contributed to the realism aspect and the 2d characters contributed to the expressiveness and relatability aspects while in modern times we are going to either extreme with live action being extreme realism at the cost of expression and Calarts, 2d and 3d junk being extreme expression at the cost of skill and realism. And these animators were really well trained cause they could draw high framerate stuff, ones and twos, of highly detailed characters with complex 3 dimensional movement. WRT to Anime, especially 90s anime it had some really great innovations, particularly in character and visual design. Two of the prime reasons I completely despise modern anime other than subject matter and pandering is the absolute crap character design which has become very very streamlined and the color grading/lighting choices which is even worse. 90s character design in anime is admittedly unrealistic but the characters being well proportioned and having wacky hair, big eyes, expressions, hyperproportioned arms and stuff looked good looking at it, the kind of stuff you would see in Ninja Scroll, Voltage Fighter Gowcaizer, Evangelion, Gunsmith cats stuff like that. 90s Anime Color grading did this very unique thing which I really feel should be patented and sold as an art form, the three color system where every character and interactable object always had three colors for each surface representing three lightings, dark normal and bright. These colors were also distinctly separated and gave an almost comicbooky pop art feel to the animation which made it look fucking excellent, something American Anime type cartoons tried and Speedoru uses a ton. Modern anime suffers the most here as colors are very high saturation making everything unnecessarily bright looking, animators add stupid lens flare type things everywhere trying for that realism, all colors try to be gradients for some reason where theyre not distinctly separated cause "muh realism" and a lot of hideous shit like that. CG does nothing to solve any of this and will actively make things worse, people should just go back to the fucking 90s when people knew how to make things look good instead of chasing low investment high return nonsense.
 
Modern anime suffers the most here as colors are very high saturation making everything unnecessarily bright looking, animators add stupid lens flare type things everywhere trying for that realism, all colors try to be gradients for some reason
Maybe I’m just an oldfag but it pains me to see crisp, lovingly hand drawn frames get washed out by soft glow lighting and particle effects. Unlike bad CGI, which is often used as a cost saving crutch, I think that misused post processing effects are thrown on because people believe bloom and blur look good, but to me it just muddies the details and makes it harder to appreciate the effort put into each frame.

 
Maybe I’m just an oldfag but it pains me to see crisp, lovingly hand drawn frames get washed out by soft glow lighting and particle effects. Unlike bad CGI, which is often used as a cost saving crutch, I think that misused post processing effects are thrown on because people believe bloom and blur look good, but to me it just muddies the details and makes it harder to appreciate the effort put into each frame.

Its the main reason I have with ufotable anime. You could never convince me that a highly postprocessed anime fight scene from them is better than something out of like Giant Robo or any of the OVAs being released around the 80s and the 90s.

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Seriously, if you havent seen Giant Robo, please see it. One of my favorite mecha anime and its all on YouTube (as of this post).
 
How easy or difficult it is for studios to find/recruit/keep animators of a certain caliber.
Wit Studio had an animator shortage a decade ago (maybe they still do) for this reason. This might be the reason why the Japanese government funded the Young Animator Training Program around that time, to encourage more talent to apply.
 
In other news, Harmony Gold can eat an entire shipping container full of dicks.

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While I don't care much for Robotech, I don't hate it, I hate the company who owns it can't let Macross be used without HUGE amounts of red tape and make everyone happy just because they want a movie deal that they have been shopping around since 2000, and have had ideas about since before then. Someone needs to tell them the movie isn't happening. They had their chance in the 80s and 90s, it's done.
I'm pretty sure Harmony gold only still exists because they own a bunch of real-estate in LA and southern California because iirc the last thing they actually produced was some dumb bigfoot comedy in 2016. It'll actually be interesting with the next macross series because its being made by Sunrise and they have a few contracts where certain distributers get the US rights to their shows, so maybe a few legal fights possibly?

i feel like we are already there. Whenever i check out some show its all ugly cg coupled with uncanny rotoscope that makes me instantly nope out. The pool of good 2d animators is drying or the studios are just too kiked to want to do things that way anymore so endless ps2 cutscene looking anime it is.
I think my problem with CG comes down to rendering. They either come of as complete flat or hyperdetailed that seem like there green screened into the setting. But I have noticed a few cases where they use CG in a creative manner with normal 2d animation.

Anime wise if anyone's seen Ousama Ranking, they used a lot of CG in some of the fights, more specifically blender.



There where some janky parts where it was noticeable but there where moments where it worked.

And allowing to talk about CG outside of anime. I've had a few conversation with friends who like they guilty gear games over whether or not arc system works could make a CG anime if pressed and they answers is usually a maybe because game animation is a lot different then normal tv/movie animation (even though the company markets itself as trying to mimic the later as close as possible).

I also think rotoscoping for vehicles can work if done right. I know a few people familiar with the star wars thread know about him but a guy named Otaking/Paul Johnson made a tie fighter animation that used this method 8 years ago that is still pretty impressive, more so the fact it was a one man project (his character animation still kinda sucks though).

Also with regards to postprocessing I kinda agree UFOtable and MAPPA kind of overuse it that it distracts from the actual anime, but there's a Christmas movies that came out a few years ago called Klaus that I think did a decent job adding effects.
 
I think that misused post processing effects are thrown on because people believe bloom and blur look good,
It's better to just not use them, it's not a video game. Video games suffer from similar problems where visual design and contrast gets screwed over by dynamic lighting and post processing effects. Communication and storytelling generally requires visual clarity, the realism aspect doesn't help there.
That video actually shows the proper 90s color grading with the color contrast I described, it looks good but gets fucked into gradients with the post processing effects.
Also with regards to postprocessing I kinda agree UFOtable and MAPPA kind of overuse it that it distracts from the actual anime, but there's a Christmas movies that came out a few years ago called Klaus that I think did a decent job adding effects.
Klaus is pretty good but it falls into the color gradient pit trap with lack of color contrast, looking more 3d than 2d.
 
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Its the main reason I have with ufotable anime. You could never convince me that a highly postprocessed anime fight scene from them is better than something out of like Giant Robo or any of the OVAs being released around the 80s and the 90s.
Ufotable's animation is absolutely loaded with modern gimmicks, but they use them tastefully enough to make their style look good in its own right even if it will never quite measure up to the raw passion of classic hand drawn animation. They also have great audio direction. Good sound is what makes modern media sound so much "punchier" than older stuff and studios with a good grasp of it can go a lot further with a lot less. Action scenes in particular benefit from a well-tuned sonic element.
 
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I've had a few conversation with friends who like they guilty gear games over whether or not arc system works could make a CG anime
The thing about Arcsys’ faux 2d is that it, like all mediums, takes effort to get right. A lot of effort goes into each model, like manually specifying how light and shadow should interact with it and each frame will be tweaked for the best result. It’s not practical for a TV anime, but maybe a movie or OVA could manage it with the right talent and funding.

There’s a GDC talk on how they achieve the effect, although it’s a little technical.
 
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