RWBY - The Hindenburg on which Rooster Teeth rests its hopes, dreams and future

[Useful_Mistake]

https://archive.ph/TQIH5

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

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Yes, call those ungrateful and incompetent asshats who spent most of the last movie fucking about while yelling at you for getting shit done, and not the hundreds of other heroes who would make the Grimm their bitch.

 

[brocktherock]

I think I'd honestly like Cinder far more if she had died in Volume 5 after her fight with Raven. I don't know anyone (here or even if you look at the Reddit thread for RWBY) who doesn't think that Cinder didn't overstay her welcome.

I also thought that was the best death they could have given her if it had stuck, it was pretty good.

I feel like I remember that, but I can't find anything about it on the wiki. Do you remember where does scenes are?

Take this with a grain of salt because I won't sift through all that screen time but it's the impression I got from the struggle sessions. There are no shots where she smirks or grits her teeth defiantly while Salem isn't looking (like she did against her abusive family), no scenes after, she really appears to take the beating and then... submit. Those are also the rare times she makes a sad face i.e we see her unable to keep her guard up.

tbf, it's not like you can permanently stop her plans. Ozpin is getting weaker and weaker, so even if Salem loses all her toys, she still wins eventually. Similarly, Cinder neither took steps to figure out Salem's weakness, nor could do any permanent damage to her or her plans. Salem made it quite clear that while she can show lenience and offer second chances, she doesn't actually care much about Cinder, and is manipulative towards Cinder to ensure her loyalty.

Then I guess most of Salem's chessmaster plans are simply to amuse herself if they're all kind of pointless with or without underlings. I like the idea but I'm burned on it, Bleach seemed to be the same way where Aizen Sosuke was impossibly smart and powerful with underlings he'd fuck with for fun and an entire army he ended up gutting because they were never needed, all of which was at least partially due to writer issues than it being preplanned. But he too was defeated because he's the bad guy and the heroes have to win. If I cared about RWBY a little more I'dbe worried about how they wrote themselves into a corner with Salem literally guaranteed to win without an asspull.
But anyway, it's just weird to me how RWBY wants me to believe the bit of your quote I bolded but it shows me exactly the kind of montage I'd expect for a character to start rebelling against their master?

Another thing the writers did was show she's a woman who believes in destiny (Pyrrha asks her this and she says yes). Lines like those point to her believing she inherited her powers rightfully but... she stole them all or was gifted them by obviously manipulative people. It works for Pyrrha but I don't know what that was meant to say about Cinder.

I find it amazing how they fucked up with Cinder, a character that should have been a walk in the park.

That's pretty much what I wanted them to do too, even if it might be cliche all they'd have to do is paint-by-the-numbers and land at least a decent watch with their colorful and attractive cast.
I think while everyone watched V8 snd V9, we were seeing them failing in the process of turning Cinder into the second-in-command role, whatever they did previously should've landed on the beat during those seasons but they got swept up in all the other things they kept shoving in (or something like that, I'm lost at this point). It is really telling how most of us in here are just amateurs/enthusiasts of storytelling yet we come to pretty similar conclusions on what RWBY is supposed to be doing as a conventional plot with heroes and 9/10 times they don't do it.

Besides them being plain retarded, do we think it's a problem of too many ideas in one show? Not enough time to execute them (I doubt this)? Cramming conflicting ideas together? Bad management? Chronic urge to 'subvert' tropes?

 

[Useful_Mistake]

I also thought that was the best death they could have given her if it had stuck, it was pretty good.

I know, right? A darn shame.

but it's the impression I got from the struggle sessions. There are no shots where she smirks or grits her teeth defiantly while Salem isn't looking (like she did against her abusive family), no scenes after, she really appears to take the beating and then... submit. Those are also the rare times she makes a sad face i.e we see her unable to keep her guard up.

Huh. Yeah, I guess I can see that.

Then I guess most of Salem's chessmaster plans are simply to amuse herself if they're all kind of pointless with or without underlings.

They aren’t pointless per se, more so that neither of them are critical to her success (after she had eliminated the Silver Eyed Warriors). If you notice, she never bothered to get personally involved (again. SEW aside) until Cinder’s independently created plan worked which is when Salem capitalised on the success. I feel like this works well enough for both Salem as a character, and from a narrative explanation as to why no one ever sees Salem. She can’t be bothered to do anything unless she is sure she’s on the right moment to succeed.

If I cared about RWBY a little more I'dbe worried about how they wrote themselves into a corner with Salem literally guaranteed to win without an asspull.

I feel they either are going to perma-trap her with Ruby’s Silver Eye powers, or Relic of Destruction is the only relic that works as advertised and could actually overcome her immortality. What else can triumph over a God-granted life? God-granted death.

But anyway, it's just weird to me how RWBY wants me to believe the bit of your quote I bolded but it shows me exactly the kind of montage I'd expect for a character to start rebelling against their master?

Okay, tbf, Salem only started being manipulative towards Cinder at the end of Volume 8 (as far as we know). I should have been clearer on that.

It works for Pyrrha but I don't know what that was meant to say about Cinder.

That Cinder feels that she was destined for greatness and for power.

Besides them being plain retarded, do we think it's a problem of too many ideas in one show? Not enough time to execute them (I doubt this)? Cramming conflicting ideas together? Bad management? Chronic urge to 'subvert' tropes?

The biggest problem is that the story itself could more or less work, but ever since Volume 6, I kept getting the feeling that I was watching a draft version of the plot, that was neither reread, nor actually fully finalised. You can see it really well in the scene where Cinder recruits Neo. It doesn’t really make sense they way they made it, and it feels like the dialogue wasn’t pre-written, but Cinder’s VA was just told “Cinder recruits Neo and succeeds”.

Another big problem is that the writers don’t rewatch their own show, and keep missing stuff from the previous volumes. Most of the time it isn’t major, but some plot points end up repeating (BLAKE) or some character development gets reversed or even completely gutter (Yang volume 7, and most of 8, more or less fixed in 9)

They also need someone to tell them “no” on certain ideas. Maybe they do have that person, but I’m not certain.

Also, not a fan of post Vol 5 very heavy handed use of Fairy Tales as opposed to pre Vol 4

 

[Random Internet Person]

I think while everyone watched V8 snd V9, we were seeing them failing in the process of turning Cinder into the second-in-command role,

I think that was the plan as far back as V5, or maybe V1 or V2 when Cinder first said she was working for somebody.

Besides them being plain retarded, do we think it's a problem of too many ideas in one show? Not enough time to execute them (I doubt this)? Cramming conflicting ideas together? Bad management? Chronic urge to 'subvert' tropes?

I've always said that it's a matter of 1. the writing team never really having a chance to develop and edit the major story parts because RWBY always had a sense of "We need to get this shit out NOW!" so everything had this stench of first draft and 2. The writers (and maybe even Monty) putting in things that was above their skill level (like at least 90 percent of the shit with the White Fang) and not thinking things through even for things that come across as basic (like the Vytal Festival and how it seems that there's no real reason for any of the characters to participate in the tournament).

Then I guess most of Salem's chessmaster plans are simply to amuse herself if they're all kind of pointless with or without underlings. I like the idea but I'm burned on it, Bleach seemed to be the same way where Aizen Sosuke was impossibly smart and powerful with underlings he'd fuck with for fun and an entire army he ended up gutting because they were never needed, all of which was at least partially due to writer issues than it being preplanned. But he too was defeated because he's the bad guy and the heroes have to win. If I cared about RWBY a little more I'dbe worried about how they wrote themselves into a corner with Salem literally guaranteed to win without an asspull.

You could argue that Salem only got as far as she had because of how incompetent Ozpin is. Her shock troops in the Grimm? Beaten by a bunch of kids very easily. Her minions? Beaten by those same kids that could basically be seen as high school dropouts. Her own powers? Hasn't reaaly been shown to use them but she can apparently come back from pretty much anything, except she doesn't have the Doomsday level of cheapness thanks to already being immortal.

The only real groundbreaking thing that was done with Salem was have her stop acting like Dio from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure or Dracula from Castlevania and have her actually try to get involved, except there's nothing to really establish that as an "oh shit" moment even if the show wants it to be that specific thing. And all that seemed to accomplish was shift the "they have everything they need to achieve total victory, all they have to do is not be freaking stupid" meter from the heroes to the villains.

But anyway, it's just weird to me how RWBY wants me to believe the bit of your quote I bolded but it shows me exactly the kind of montage I'd expect for a character to start rebelling against their master?

Not really. The show wants you to believe that Salem is this all powerful evil entity, but hasn't really had Salem be shown to do anything to earn that reputation. As for rebellion, I already talked about how I think there's a way you could have Cinder lash out at Salem and have her talk about how she's the one who gets shit done and she's the one fighting the heroes and there really hasn't been anything (to my knowledge) to explain why Salem just chills in her lair (be it a castle or a giant Grimm whale) and relies on her minions to do her bidding.


Honestly, at this point, I can only see someone's tolerance of Salem as a villain relying mostly on how much they can tolerate a villain not getting directly involved and just delegating authority, especially if they don't have a clear reason not to get involved.

I think these tweets best explain it:


You think this criticism/analysis can apply to Salem?

 

[Useful_Mistake]

You think this criticism/analysis can apply to Salem?

I presume she can't actually take the whole world by herself (or there would be significant risk in trying). Earlier in the thread I made a speculation as to why.

The point about Grimm is somewhat valid. It lacks the info that Salem is literally unkillable, and that she can make tons of new Grimm super easily, but it is weird how these super soldiers can’t just massacre the total Grimm forcepool. I assume that the closer they get the more reinforcements can arrive faster so any party sent to the ’Land of Darkness’ would die, and I guess that would explain why Salem is hesitant to bum rush the kingdoms (if that is even her real goal)

My theory is that the grimm pools can make grimm at a fixed speed, and while reinforcing their numbers in, say, Vale would be difficult (due to distance), that wouldn't be an issue closer you get to Salem's home. Likewise there could be issues with her attacking headon herself, possibly her being cautions about possible Ozpin triumph cards (especially since she found out Ruby is alive). There's also a question as to how vulnerable she is to dust. For example, if someone overpowers and defeats her, or just in general overwhelms her, and uses ice dust to freeze her, can she unfreeze herself? And if so what prevents a Kingdom with sufficient dust from just recasting it whenever she gets close to breaking out/defrosting? Maybe she also fears that Ozpin will use the relic of destruction against her? Given its a sword, it seems very close-ranged, and maybe Salem knows that?

Fundamentally, we lack the required info about her, the world, and her goals to determine if she is stupid/lazy/or just very cautious.

And regardless, a villain that can win by simply outlasting all your efforts to resist is scary in its own way. Personally, I like how Salem's been portrayed in Vol 8. Perhaps that is only because we hadn't had the time to destroy her character.

 

[Random Internet Person]

There's also a question as to how vulnerable she is to dust. For example, if someone overpowers and defeats her, or just in general overwhelms her, and uses ice dust to freeze her, can she unfreeze herself? And if so what prevents a Kingdom with sufficient dust from just recasting it whenever she gets close to breaking out/defrosting?

So basically the Kikoho?

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

Besides them being plain retarded, do we think it's a problem of too many ideas in one show? Not enough time to execute them (I doubt this)? Cramming conflicting ideas together? Bad management? Chronic urge to 'subvert' tropes?

RWBY is what happens when you don't grow up to realize that all those shitty ideas you had for crossover anime fanfics as a kid were shitty ideas.

It is really telling how most of us in here are just amateurs/enthusiasts of storytelling yet we come to pretty similar conclusions on what RWBY is supposed to be doing as a conventional plot with heroes and 9/10 times they don't do it.

The biggest problem is that the story itself could more or less work, but ever since Volume 6, I kept getting the feeling that I was watching a draft version of the plot,

I wouldn't even go that far, I think RWBY should have remained a Mahou Shoujo show like it was for the first two volumes, it worked as a sort of bootleg Sailor Moon and Volume 3 was the beginning of the end and the ending of that volume directly doomed the entire show. That was the event horizon where the scope creep became totally inescapable.

As far as all this theory crafting and trying to justify things in the story goes: The writers routinely just throw up their hands and yell "fuck it!" for key moments in the show so why are you putting more thought and effort into it than they ever did, RWBY of all fucking things is not worth that kind of energy.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

So basically the Kikoho?

Team Four Star aside, yeah, that could be a genuine possibility.

 

[brocktherock]

That Cinder feels that she was destined for greatness and for power.

She thinks that, I know, but I'm saying what did the writers want us to make of it, if anything. They don't really emphasize whether she's justified or totally wrong either way, there's always the obvious answer that they made her say omnious lines for the hell of it with 0 thought. But if we're seriously interpreting things like Salem's plans ICly then I think it's worth approaching the reason they attempted something since they committed to taking RWBY beyond goofy fights-of-the-week. Like retreading Blake's arc shows that they liked the idea enough to try and pull it off again despite not having the skill to; really, I'm interested in knowing their thought process, especially the retarded parts.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

They don't really emphasize whether she's justified or totally wrong either way

I don’t think that needs to be resolved, really. They could do a Morrowind sorta thing where the destiny part is left up to interpretation as to if destiny is real, or are we simply the makers of our own destiny. Though, Morrowind did actually put plenty of effort to show either way, so maybe it wouldn’t work for RWBY.

Like retreading Blake's arc shows that they liked the idea enough to try and pull it off again despite not having the skill to

I really disliked that

 

[Mega Black]

Besides them being plain retarded, do we think it's a problem of too many ideas in one show?

That's almost certainly one of the many different issues affecting the show behind the scenes. There is simply too much thrown at the wall for anything to get enough time to properly stick, not that they could stick it anyway.

but hasn't really had Salem be shown to do anything to earn that reputation.

If nothing else it has actively undermined it. A nuke will blow her apart for several days and it takes her a while to pull herself back together. She isn't invincible, just immortal, there is no explanation as to why this is an insurmountable problem.

I kept waiting for someone to explain why you couldn't just use the Relic of Creation to create a super prison at the bottom of the ocean to throw her ass into and leave her there, or shoot her into space. She has magic and shit but not teleportation. If nothing else works just punch her into a box and blow it up every few days.

 

[Random Internet Person]

A nuke will blow her apart for several days and it takes her a while to pull herself back together. She isn't invincible, just immortal, there is no explanation as to why this is an insurmountable problem.

You know, I was thinking of how Deadpool and Wolverine have their healing factors, so it might be a case of a classic drawback of healing factors: you can come back from pretty much anything, but some things take longer to come back from than others.

Only problem is, I'm not sure if the nuke you talked about was the only thing Salem had to come back from in her current state, so maybe we don't really have an average recovery rate.

As far as all this theory crafting and trying to justify things in the story goes: The writers routinely just throw up their hands and yell "fuck it!" for key moments in the show so why are you putting more thought and effort into it than they ever did, RWBY of all fucking things is not worth that kind of energy.

Probably because some of us enjoy it. ANd some of us feel that once upon a time there was potential to have something at least solid with RWBY. Alternatively, it's worth analyzing just to see what went wrong and figure out how to not repeat the same mistake if any of us want to make anything creative, somehow related to RWBY or not.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

at the bottom of the ocean to throw her ass into and leave her there, or shoot her into space. She has magic

She literally has the power to control water. Maidens' power flows from Ozpin, so it makes sense that Salem would have the same abilities.

Only problem is, I'm not sure if the nuke you talked about was the only thing Salem had to come back from in her current state, so maybe we don't really have an average recovery rate.

In her ‘fight’ against Hazel, she is shown recovering from some of his attacks, though there it is near instantaneous. I believe her regen rate is based on the damage taken in the attack.

Official V-tuber of Chrunchyroll had done a collab with V-tuber Ruby:

https://archive.md/FEgI3

https://ghostarchive.org/archive/wjwcx?wr=false

 

[Random Internet Person]

.

In her ‘fight’ against Hazel, she is shown recovering from some of his attacks, though there it is near instantaneous. I believe her regen rate is based on the damage taken in the attack.

Sounds like a common healing factor.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

Sounds like a common healing factor.

Healing factor doesn’t rez you, but otherwise, yeah

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

I kept waiting for someone to explain why you couldn't just use the Relic of Creation to create a super prison at the bottom of the ocean to throw her ass into and leave her there, or shoot her into space. She has magic and shit but not teleportation. If nothing else works just punch her into a box and blow it up every few days.

The relic of creation can literally move souls out of bodies, fucking trap her inside a useless body and watch her rot for eternity.

 

[Random Internet Person]

The relic of creation can literally move souls out of bodies, fucking trap her inside a useless body and watch her rot for eternity.

It’s sounding like an instant win device, and now Salem has it.

 

[Random Internet Person]

 

[Useful_Mistake]

The relic of creation can literally move souls out of bodies, fucking trap her inside a useless body and watch her rot for eternity.

Come to think of it, if this is true, and Ozpin’s take on Salem is right, doesn’t the conflict sorta resolve itself now that she has a (potentially) immortality-proof suicide option?