Tabletop Community Watch

[Flaming Insignias]

This kind of calls back to the wheelchair discussion. ("If you're in a wheelchair all the time in life, why not imagine being able to walk?")

If you're stuck as a human in your meatbag life all the time, why bother pretending to just be more of the same? Why not the chance to imagine being something you are not? Isn't that the point of the game? (not that I, being a robot, am capable of imagination)

I feel that the wheelchair discussion was more focused on how the people demanding wheelchairs were wanting to have magic wheelchairs that were basically better than walking normally. The people wanting to play human characters aren't demanding that humans be radically better than other species (even though humans probably are superior to all but dragons), and that is what makes me less concerned about people playing human characters, especially when the people playing nonhumans still treat them like humans wearing funny costumes

 

[Corn Flakes]

This kind of calls back to the wheelchair discussion. ("If you're in a wheelchair all the time in life, why not imagine being able to walk?")

If you're stuck as a human in your meatbag life all the time, why bother pretending to just be more of the same? Why not the chance to imagine being something you are not? Isn't that the point of the game? (not that I, being a robot, am capable of imagination)

Because most people aren't swordsmen, fireball-flinging spellcasters, or cybernetically-augmented walking blenders either. There's plenty to do in the field of "imagining yourself being something you are not". So instead of bothering with things like species, which most people don't really think about in general (very few people who aren't terminally online are even thinking very much about ethnicity to begin with), they're having fun roleplaying what their character does, as opposed to what their character is. It's easy to roleplay as a human because there's no additional baggage to it, so you can focus on the rest of the character concept.

Sometimes none of the non-human races in the setting appeal to the player as something they'd want to roleplay as, as opposed to interacting with. The popularity of "normal dude gets sent to medieval world" Isekai fantasy among weebs bears out the appeal of being the "mundane" element in an exotic world. So do the Baldur's Gate 3 developers bitching about how many people just made whitebread male humans when there were so many other exotic (and ugly) races to play as. If all you want to do is explore the world and interact with the characters and monsters in it, your race is irrelevant beyond whatever stat boosts it gives you.

(That's not to say anything of people who just can't put themselves in the right mental space to play as someone of the opposite sex, much less a whole different species.)

Long story short, people play what they like. So long as they're having fun, and not ruining the fun for anybody else, they're free to do whatever. For all the complaints I've seen about "people having no imagination" because they play humans, I don't think I've ever seen someone making a game objectively worse simply because they played a human. It's usually less their choice of race and more how they play their character. Same with all those "red flag" races we were talking about earlier.

 

[Ghostse]

This kind of calls back to the wheelchair discussion. ("If you're in a wheelchair all the time in life, why not imagine being able to walk?")

If you're stuck as a human in your meatbag life all the time, why bother pretending to just be more of the same? Why not the chance to imagine being something you are not? Isn't that the point of the game? (not that I, being a robot, am capable of imagination)

Being able to walk/free of a mobility device is a common state of existence there's a good chance the player experienced this at some point.

If you are a gnome who got reversed-isekai'd and can prove it, we can talk about you being allowed to play a gnome in the game.

I would make a person in a wheelchair play someone in wheelchair if they were very clearly rolling dice one-handed jacking it to the thoughts of being able to walk and participated in weird communities where they made are where being free of wheelchair gave you shitting dick nipples.

If the expected game path involved lots of rolling up inclined planes, it's going to ruin the game experience for everyone else when they can just climb some stairs.

And as addressed, (except for gnomes/goblins/tabaxi) its a whole different story if I know and trust a player.

The other thing is "Human" covers a huge array of experiences. As @Corn Flakes points out, unless you are wielding a broadsword and hacking up skeletons on the daily, you are already stepping outside of your ordinary.
You can be a merchant, you can be a beggar, you can be a veteran, you can be a criminal, you can be a spy, you can be a runway, you can be a researcher, you can he an honorable warrior, you can be a craven back-stabbing profiteering coward.
If you can't come up with a good human character to play, that's a lack of imagination and creativity that putting "Kinder" in the race field probably won't fix.

Doing weird freakshit races is usually because either A) they want some racial trait to do a broken build or B) they want to use one aspect of that race's personality, ignoring the rest, to be a disruptive annoying table twat. And probably both.

That's the reason I often roll nonhuman characters myself, both in tabletop and vidya. It's a fun storytelling challenge to stop and ask myself "okay, so how would a tiefling react in this situation? How will they interact with the world around them? Do I try to play nice, or do I just assume that everyone else is gonna be an asshole to me because I'm a tiefling and respond accordingly? Or do I just not bother trying to interact with people and let the party do the talking while I lurk in the background and look menacing?"

If you do it right, it really adds a lot of flavor to the experience. If you do it wrong, you're That Guy and everyone's gonna hate you. It's a fine line to walk and it's not surprising that people often wind up on the wrong side.

You are in the extreme minority.
Most players who do actually role play their non-human/non-core are only looking to indulge some fetish or fishing to break the game.

Hell, usually the most I'll get out of a dwarf is they want ale at the tavern or maybe do some stonework inspection (but that's usually because they have a mechanical advantage) and some racism at Elves.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

The popularity of "normal dude gets sent to medieval world" Isekai fantasy among weebs bears out the appeal of being the "mundane" element in an exotic world.

Those types of isekai stories are mostly just appealing to a different kind of fantasy that is popular among the Japanese in particular. That of getting away from their stifling, ultra conformist society, and simply being given a "cheat code" to life that allows them to never have to worry about mundane shit ever again (because, despite the isekai protagonist being "mundane", they are usually given a "cheat" power that is anything but mundane, even to the magical world they inhabit). Also, having a literal slave harem of bitches one can fuck at will. Its a power fantasy, in other words, and an escapist fantasy. RPG protagonists generally don't fit that mold, generally being a mundane part of their world and having to actually fight through adversity, since RPG are about overcoming challenges to become stronger, not being blessed by God to be the world's strongest right out of the gate. RPGs are a game, in other words, isekai are telling a very particular kind of story. So the comparison isn't really 1:1.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Those types of isekai stories are mostly just appealing to a different kind of fantasy that is popular among the Japanese in particular. That of getting away from their stifling, ultra conformist society, and simply being given a "cheat code" to life that allows them to never have to worry about mundane shit ever again (because, despite the isekai protagonist being "mundane", they are usually given a "cheat" power that is anything but mundane, even to the magical world they inhabit). Also, having a literal slave harem of bitches one can fuck at will. Its a power fantasy, in other words, and an escapist fantasy. RPG protagonists generally don't fit that mold, generally being a mundane part of their world and having to actually fight through adversity, since RPG are about overcoming challenges to become stronger, not being blessed by God to be the world's strongest right out of the gate. RPGs are a game, in other words, isekai are telling a very particular kind of story. So the comparison isn't really 1:1.

The comparison with Japanese culture definitely isn't 1:1, but I was talking specifically about weebs, not Japanese people. And that crowd, despite not being raised in Japanese conformism, still consume a fair amount of that stuff, alongside other non-Isekai fantasy content with plain humans as the protagonist/POV character.

It doesn't really matter, though. The point stands: some people are more interested in the world or the game than their own character. If you gave them a premade elf character, or an orc character, they'd probably play them just like they'd play their human character: either as a simple avatar, interacting with the world as an idealized version of themselves would, or as a blank sheet of printer paper, tagging along with the party just to roll dice and see cool things happening.

 

[Mega Black]

so many other exotic (and ugly) races to play as

This still cracks me up. There are half elves, elves, drow, halflings, dwarves, gnomes, githyanki, and dragonborn (who weren't even in the EA when they made that complaint). Only the githyanki and dragonborn are anything other than generic humanoid or generic tiny humanoid.

Fuck gnomes, if they'd maybe bothered to include goblins or kobolds for the tiny rep somebody would actually play those, but nobody wants to be a fucking super manlet.

 

[Flexo]

The other thing is "Human" covers a huge array of experiences. As @Corn Flakes points out, unless you are wielding a broadsword and hacking up skeletons on the daily, you are already stepping outside of your ordinary.
You can be a merchant, you can be a beggar, you can be a veteran, you can be a criminal, you can be a spy, you can be a runway, you can be a researcher, you can he an honorable warrior, you can be a craven back-stabbing profiteering coward.

I mean sure - but I could also be all that in a completely modern day setting game too. Why bother going fantasy at all?

I get you have to have some guide rails for there to be a game at all, but sometimes it seems just a bit silly to say "in this bit of escapism you sir, have escaped too far!" Though yeah, GMs should make it clear from the start "humans only" or not.

Like any co-op, seems the key to the whole thing is being a team player or not. And I've played enough games to have friends screw over the team even if they are playing humans. A good GM needs to sound out bad team players right away.

 

[Ghostse]

I mean sure - but I could also be all that in a completely modern day setting game too. Why bother going fantasy at all?

To set a theme and a context. Also because who and what you'll be interacting with.

I get you have to have some guide rails for there to be a game at all, but sometimes it seems just a bit silly to say "in this bit of escapism you sir, have escaped too far!" Though yeah, GMs should make it clear from the start "humans only" or not.

Like any co-op, seems the key to the whole thing is being a team player or not. And I've played enough games to have friends screw over the team even if they are playing humans. A good GM needs to sound out bad team players right away.

I mean sure you aren't wrong that human-only doesn't eliminate these problems. Someone who wants to play an annoying twat of a Kinder is probably going to be an annoying twat of a player regardless of their chracter's race. But it definitely corrals them and keeps when you say "Billy, stop being an annoying asswart" from turning into an argument of 'But stealing shit is just what Kinder do! I'm just roleplaying my character (when its convenient and entertaining for me)'.

If a player rolls up a character of a Northman race, they'll argue when it comes time to take Cold damage that they should have resistance because they are from the artic reaches. But very rare is the player who says, of his own volition, "My Northman is going to be ditching his plate for chainmail. This temperate climate is way too hot for his artic constitution."

 

[Miriam Margoyles]

Snipe and Wib made a video about some long forgotten old game that Games Workshop published before Warhammer, and sperged out for an embarrassingly long time about the rules' usage of the word 'men' to describe troops.

I genuinely want to smash their fucking heads together. Like, the word 'men' has been used for years and years to describe military troops, but I'm really sorry this game that's literally from the 1970s doesn't pass your 2023 gender woo-woo smell test, guys. Maybe we should ask these inanimate chunks of lead exactly what they identify as?

I know Snipe (like a lot of fat girls in male-dominated hobbies) is a she/they, but I am increasingly convinced with every video they put out that Wib is going to eventually troon out too. Like, maybe not a full trooning, but if you notice him wearing nail polish in a future video or navel-gazing on Twitter about how "I'm just not feeling particularly comfortable being referred to as 'he' right now, guys," I want you to know that I fucking called it.

 

[Ghostse]

I genuinely want to smash their fucking heads together. Like, the word 'men' has been used for years and years to describe military troops, but I'm really sorry this game that's literally from the 1970s doesn't pass your 2023 gender woo-woo smell test, guys. Maybe we should ask these inanimate chunks of lead exactly what they identify as?

AXSHALLAY
"Men" is the world for humans. The correct way old english to refer to human males is weremen.

 

[Mooger Meng]

AXSHALLAY
"Men" is the world for humans. The correct way old english to refer to human males is weremen.

That's even worse. What, do they spontaneously and violently change sex every full moon?

 

[Corn Flakes]

I thought "were" was the Old English word for "man", as opposed to "wif" referring to "woman".

Hence the term werewolf: "man-wolf".

 

[Ghostse]

I thought "were" was the Old English word for "man", as opposed to "wif" referring to "woman".

Hence the term werewolf: "man-wolf".

the "were" has some connotations that don't exactly map to just "has a penis". A wereman is a human adult male person - male children aren't weremen. It usually connotates a sense of danger, capable of defending itself or attacking. So "werewolf" means more like "A Wolf that resembles a fighting-age/condition human male" not just "human that turns into wolf or vice versa" or even "half-human half-wolf". All of the "humans turining into wolves" stuff came later, and predated by tales of hominid wolves that lurked in the woods with origins independent of humanity. (which if you've ever seen a size comparison of a person with a proper wolf, you'd understand where the legends originate)

A breeding age/marriable female was a "Wimman" which became Wifman.
(I cannot remember the terms for children; the whole point of the analysis I read was debunking feminazi "MEN IS SEXIST" and the retardation of wymyn) Thus a female hominid wolf would be a Wimwolf of Wifwolf, meaning women can't be werewolves.

"Were" was slowly dropped because in any counts that mattered (quotas for levees, size of armies), "were" was implied. Woman was kept because in total population counts you needed to separate out children from those who were capable of bearing children.

The real fun part of that is to think on the fact that "were" and "man" were separate enough concepts that they needed to preserve a term for something that was like a fighting-age man but distinct from humans.

 

[Mooger Meng]

The real fun part of that is to think on the fact that "were" and "man" were separate enough concepts that they needed to preserve a term for something that was like a fighting-age man but distinct from humans.

Perhaps in that sense, "were" was used for a catch-all term for non-human creatures grown enough to be dangerous? After all, some crazy bastard must have been able to tame a wolf before it became big enough to eat him - in theory, it wouldn't have yet been "were" if it were an abandoned pup.

... Come to think of it, I've heard the term "ware" used in the context of being alert for imminent danger ("Ware the Stormvernin!"). I wonder if "were" drifted into a general term for danger and the perception of it - being awere of one's surroundings.
Language is fun.

 

[Ghostse]

Perhaps in that sense, "were" was used for a catch-all term for non-human creatures grown enough to be dangerous?

Not just dangerous. There was a level of intellect associated with it, and of walking upright.

 

[Snekposter]

Not just dangerous. There was a level of intellect associated with it, and of walking upright.

So a... werewolf then?

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

Snipe and Wib made a video about some long forgotten old game that Games Workshop published before Warhammer, and sperged out for an embarrassingly long time about the rules' usage of the word 'men' to describe troops.

I genuinely want to smash their fucking heads together. Like, the word 'men' has been used for years and years to describe military troops, but I'm really sorry this game that's literally from the 1970s doesn't pass your 2023 gender woo-woo smell test, guys. Maybe we should ask these inanimate chunks of lead exactly what they identify as?

I know Snipe (like a lot of fat girls in male-dominated hobbies) is a she/they, but I am increasingly convinced with every video they put out that Wib is going to eventually troon out too. Like, maybe not a full trooning, but if you notice him wearing nail polish in a future video or navel-gazing on Twitter about how "I'm just not feeling particularly comfortable being referred to as 'he' right now, guys," I want you to know that I fucking called it.

I saw that same video too and I chuckled at their tears. I always thought of them as both going trans or at least gender fluid.

 

[Miriam Margoyles]

I saw that same video too and I chuckled at their tears. I always thought of them as both going trans or at least gender fluid.

Snipe started identifying as a she/they nonbinary around about the same time she started to get fat. She looks a bit like Kathy Burke now.

As I say, I am increasingly convinced Wib's got a few gender-skeletons in his closet (and tranny porn videos on his hard drive), too.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Snipe and Wib made a video about some long forgotten old game that Games Workshop published before Warhammer, and sperged out for an embarrassingly long time about the rules' usage of the word 'men' to describe troops.

Funny that they aren’t that concerned about a modern game that has gender in its units like Imperial Guardsmen, Voidsmen-at-arms, Abhorrent Ghoul Kings, Auric Runefather, Daughters of Khaine, Thousand Sons, Ork Boyz, etc.

 

[Miriam Margoyles]

Snipe and Wib put out some new merch and it's really embarrassing. It reeks of Snipe's shit Reddit tier sense of humour, and I think Wib knows it, because he seems quietly apologetic about the whole thing. Like, he's trying to play it off like a funny thing, but I think on some level he is genuinely a bit mortified.

The joke isn't funny to begin with, but then, because he doesn't have the confidence in the joke to just make it, own it, and move on, he has to really meekly explain the joke to his YouTube audience, because I think he knows, on some level, that the reference isn't as immediately obvious to the general public as it is to his cringey wife, and to the untrained observer, it just seems weird and off-putting.

I dunno, man, maybe I'm being prudish here, but imagine walking into Games Workshop, where, let's be honest, there are probably kids around, wearing that shirt. I don't know if that's a great look, know what I mean?