Opinion What incels get wrong about women

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What incels get wrong about women​

The Pope is Catholic, bears shit in the woods, and new research shows that “men who identify as incels overestimate how much women want physical attractiveness and financial success” in a partner while underestimating the importance of traits such as kindness, humour and loyalty.

Forgive my sarkiness – but I don’t think we needed a study to prove that incels’ barometer for what women want is somewhat wonky. Any woman who has tuned in for any length of time to the incel philosophy (not to mention any straight woman trying to date) would have been able to tell you as much.

Short for “involuntary celibate”, the term incel has myriad connotations, ranging from risible stereotypes to the downright terrifying (incel ideologies have been cited in manifestos for mass killings, although the report suggests the ideology isn’t the main motivation).

Whatever end of the spectrum they fall on, incel beliefs boil down to a simple equation: women owe them sex, but they aren’t delivering. Never does it seem to occur to these men that it’s their attitude towards women that’s the problem – and reason no one wants to date them – rather than their looks or their money.

Not only do women remain with men during difficult financial periods, but also research shows that more and more US women are the breadwinners in their relationships. It’s also worth mentioning that, quite opposite from seeking the most handsome men, one study suggests women are happier with less attractive husbands.

Anecdotally, when it comes to long-term partnership, a sense of humour and thoughtfulness go much further than looks – my boyfriend is gorgeous, obviously, but I love him much more when he cooks a surprise dinner or makes me laugh than when he’s done 20 extra push-ups.

Despite this, incel communities instead discuss frightening ideas like state-mandated girlfriends as serious solutions to their predicament, believing that it would save them from the whole ordeal of dating (which would force them to treat women as human beings!). Why won’t anyone date me?! cry these guys, as they put their finishing touches to a manifesto for keeping women in cages. Truly, a mystery for the ages.

For a worldview that rails against the injustices faced by single, straight men, incel-dom sure does a good job of keeping them that way. The idea that women are only interested in the most preternaturally chiselled men and their bulging bank accounts must fill any guy who falls below the impossible (imaginary) standard with self-pity.

Women (or “foids”, short for “female humanoids” on incel forums), meanwhile, are seen as vapid idiots at best, and sex-slot-machines – into which you just have to pour the right amount of money and/or abs in order to cash out – at worst.

It’s hard not to feel frustrated by this state of affairs, partly because it seems so easy to straighten out; women have been writing books and articlescountering these toxic arguments, as well as offering more realistic accounts of what we’re actually looking for in male partners.

Sure, nice jawlines and money don’t hurt – but the idea that that’s what’s stopping an incel from getting a daterather than the frustration and resentment radiating from his every pore seems pretty convenient on the one hand, and totally self-defeating on the other.

With such a brutal understanding of interpersonal relationships, it’s perhaps no surprise that the study from the University of Swansea reveals incel mental health to be in staggeringly poor shape.

Hatred often comes from unhappiness, and I’d be depressed too if I felt as if the world was configured in such a way as to make my personal fulfilment impossible.

But the good news is that however dark the incel worldview might seem, it is a fantasy. Hopefully this new study, conducted by Dr Andrew Thomas and masters student William Costello will encourage incels to see women as human beings.

Say it with me: women don’t care about your cheekbones, we want to be seen as full human beings. That might not sound like much to ask, but it should be revelatory for the guys who are too busy griping about their facial structure to see the altogether simpler – and far more meaningful – truth. If it takes a study by a man to get that ball rolling, then so be it.
 
Here's my question though. If this is all natural and just women's natural preferences then how come the loneliness, alienation, and record numbers of people nor marrying or reproducing is unprecedented?

Why didn't this ever happen before?
I am sure of there being a similar, not as well documented account in the past.

In general, the deterioration of modern society is a big factor.
Dating-wise, the lack of responsibility/accountability since the sexual revolution has been a disaster. The idea that sex is just sex has led to a host of issues and creation of a pyramid that works opposed to what @some cunt has said. Many women will go for troubled men these days as they are exciting or have resources that usurp their own. Add in men’s general lack of ability to take care of a family as systems favor women more and the top bleed out the bottom and women no longer need to be in boring/stable relationships. Looks, money or being black seem to be the ultimate indicators of success in a dating landscape for men, of which most are very incapable of achieving, specially in economies such as today.

There is a general belief that 25 is sort of a dead year. Options get worse from that point as women are stuck with simps they hate for being weak since self-made men won’t help them anymore. Men are trapped with women who are either fucked by Chad, single parent or engulfed in usual feminist rhetoric. Early 20s are very important, yet get wasted by men trying to grind for any form of support and women making piss poor decisions as they live in the moment.

Internet and world connectivity, along with general death of community just extend the issue.
 
Both incels and Man-hating RadFems forget that society now creates division between boys and girls and is better for no-one.
Also this new woke feminism that ironically includes trans is shitting on what the first feminist movements did.

If more people realize we have common goals and problems, these illiberal culture will get BTFO-ed.
 
Here's my question though. If this is all natural and just women's natural preferences then how come the loneliness, alienation, and record numbers of people nor marrying or reproducing is unprecedented?

Why didn't this ever happen before?
I suspect its because of the options the men of the past had. You a Roman incel getting no pussy? Join the army, if you don't die maybe you get to steal a nice gaul woman or something. Or you could fuck off into the wilderness be a nomad or monk.

Today men either can't do this because we've updated our morality to not immediately going to the raping/pillaging route, or they are restricted by our society from going off grid. Or they don't have the fortitude to find an alternative lifestyle that doesn't get them pussy so they end up like vid related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVTm5xfvjk

I'm sure its a lot more complicated than this but a large part of it is modern society and low T men chosing to receed into NEETdom and whining on incel forums.
 
Here's my question though. If this is all natural and just women's natural preferences then how come the loneliness, alienation, and record numbers of people nor marrying or reproducing is unprecedented?

Why didn't this ever happen before?
Because, in short, women's preferences were kept in check. Their options were a lot more limited (as were men's). Largely by culture, but upstream of that was biologic necessity. Contraception - the pill, more than anything - was what really accelerated matters. It's not as if anyone, men or women, had it 'better' in the past - just different. Everyone had to eat shit, it just came in a different vessel, depending on gender. Women may have had fewer freedoms than men, but neither did they face the same obligations as men. These days? Wahmens get all the freedoms (more, in fact) plus extra advantages, without having to take on all the responsibilities that men did (and do), whilst men are still expected to shoulder their 'traditional' burdens, with ever fewer and fewer freedoms - plus extra disadvantages - by way of compensation. Under this arrangement, women fuck, men fuck off.
 
Women are sort of faceblind about men and are often encouraged to be that way which means that it can be genuinely rare for a woman to care for a man and they can be clueless about getting a man to care for them while men are often very aware of what women desire.
What I don't understand is why there's such an education/employment gap between men and women then. Like, if men know most women care about money/education (and the security and parenting capacity those things indicate), why are so many men lagging behind them in those domains now?
So I guess you won't settle with a less attractive companion.
I actually know a lot of women who actively prefer partners less attractive than them because of a kind of weird narcissism - they like being seen as the hot one in the relationship more than they care about actually enjoying their partner's appearance for their own sakes. Women are encouraged to self-objectify far more often than to just exist as subjects in the world, which gives rise to this weird af but super pervasive narcissism. That one new yorker story 'Cat Person' basically admits as much.

This is something a woman who chose the former things the first time around will tend to look for when she's divorced and has gained some humility and wisdom. I have met these women and they are great. They make excellent wives. I have known several instances of second marriages where both parties had been through the wringer the first time around, had learnt from it, and made good choices in their new spouse.
Statistically a person who's been divorced is more likely to divorce again than someone who's never been divorced. Just because you're a weirdo who posts on KF don't value yourself so little that you settle down with a divorcee.
 
Statistically a person who's been divorced is more likely to divorce again than someone who's never been divorced.
This is not news, guy. I very specifically and clearly made the point that in the instances I was referring to, both parties had learnt some hard lessons and had taken that information with them into new relationships. I was very obviously not talking about the type of bitter fool who learns nothing and goes into a second or third or fourth marriage with the same mindset.

why are so many men lagging behind them in those domains now?
Because women are in the workforce and in education competing for those same jobs and places, and often getting them without merit merely because they are women. They are the exact same women who will then treat men like dirt for making less money than they do or they'll complain that they can't have a relationship because they can't find a man whose corporate position outranks their own.
Something, something, Unintended Consequences.
 
Incels don’t want women, incels want childlike mommy baingmaids who work while they stay home, play vidya and wank all day. They’re salty that, for the first time in human history, women have the capability to say ‘nah, fuck that’ and care for themselves (though pushing women in the workforce is also a negative). So they jump through hoops to justify a superiority complex based on having a certain pair of genitals.

Social media has fucked up women, but no more than porn and video games have destroyed men. As a man I’ve never known another guy who couldn’t get a girlfriend if he really wanted one. You’d have to be completely insufferable. If that’s the case then work on yourself instead of obsessing over women imao.
 
This is not news, guy. I very specifically and clearly made the point that in the instances I was referring to, both parties had learnt some hard lessons and had taken that information with them into new relationships. I was very obviously not talking about the type of bitter fool who learns nothing and goes into a second or third or fourth marriage with the same mindset.
I don't know if you can really infer that unlearned lessons are why divorces happen, though. Like it's entirely possible that "there's something wrong with my relationship - I need to learn to pick better/communicate better/make some change and leave" is just the mindset that drives almost all divorces and people who don't get divorced are just capable of remaining in relationships that have flaws. I mean arranged marriages have some of the highest success rates - I highly doubt it's because they're all romantically compatible, emotionally mature, communicative geniuses. It's because they don't stir the pot. Like if someone keeps getting fired from jobs, you wouldn't infer they've learned more than someone who holds down a job because of all the firings - you'd probably reasonably look at it as a red flag and not hire them. Same with people with lots of failed relationships (let alone a divorce).
Because women are in the workforce and in education competing for those same jobs and places, and often getting them without merit merely because they are women.
I'm inclined to agree with this, but I think there's probably more to the story too. When I look at a lot of failure men I know it's because they basically fried their dopamine receptors on porn/video games/alcohol, to the point where they don't really try to achieve anything in school/work/their personal lives. I've never really met women prone to these sorts of addictions - why is that?
 
This is not news, guy. I very specifically and clearly made the point that in the instances I was referring to, both parties had learnt some hard lessons and had taken that information with them into new relationships. I was very obviously not talking about the type of bitter fool who learns nothing and goes into a second or third or fourth marriage with the same mindset.


Because women are in the workforce and in education competing for those same jobs and places, and often getting them without merit merely because they are women.
In the past children were taken care of by grandparents. This is true in Eastern Europe. Young couple went to agricultural work and the baby remained in the care of grandparents.
So in theory lack of time of women could be solved by this.

I really think the true reason for this is instant gratification culture, which I admit I make this mistake too, and the polarization/tribalization of culture.
It doesn't also help that people prefer remaining child free and think only on short term than to plan for thee future. The older conservatives are right about this.

Also is this propaganda on reddit that you have to be child-free to "sAVe tHe CLimaTe". Those activists make me want to kick them.
 
Different brain chemistry. Women are more prone to becoming Wine Moms or getting addicted to Valium or turning into Jeanette Bloshinsky.
Interestingly I read that women are alcoholics less often than men but that when they do become ones there's a much worse prognosis and they're more likely to suffer more severe health complications. I think it's largely due to biological differences but also drinks of choice (wine is just worse to be addicted to than beer).
It doesn't also help that people prefer remaining child free and think only on short term than to plan for thee future. The older conservatives are right about this.

Also is this propaganda on reddit that you have to be child-free to "sAVe tHe CLimaTe". Those activists make me want to kick them.
On some level I think all child free people (including the climate ones - if you cared about the climate so badly you'd probably just stop eating meat/dairy over literally choosing to not have children) are just coping. It's more that it's just hard to find a partner who wants to marry you and who you want to marry and they know they're running out of time so it's easier just rationalizing it as a choice you made, rather than facing the painful truth that you wanted kids but just couldn't have them.
 
Interestingly I read that women are alcoholics less often than men but that when they do become ones there's a much worse prognosis and they're more likely to suffer more severe health complications. I think it's largely due to biological differences but also drinks of choice (wine is just worse to be addicted to than beer).

On some level I think all child free people (including the climate ones - if you cared about the climate so badly you'd probably just stop eating meat/dairy over literally choosing to not have children) are just coping. It's more that it's just hard to find a partner who wants to marry you and who you want to marry and they know they're running out of time so it's easier just rationalizing it as a choice you made, rather than facing the painful truth that you wanted kids but just couldn't have them.

I agree. Those people believe that it is better: "Oh, I will have more time playing this new slop game or watch more Netflix slop. Having children is another chore"
They forgot the feeling of love when nurturing a child or seeing it as your own creation that will help society and will offer emotional/phisycal support. (I am late gen Z, but I am meditating on when to have a child/children).

What upsets me about the environmental activists is that they say that children/people that have climate anxiety is a natural reaction to facing human extinction and the only thing that they can do about it to fix is to stop it from happening by doing those extreme things you described.
I am furious on them that they cannot acknowledge the issue as mild today and that we can in the future fix it without sacrifices. But no, they are brainwashed/useful idiots/ asslickers for activist politicians.
 
What I don't understand is why there's such an education/employment gap between men and women then. Like, if men know most women care about money/education (and the security and parenting capacity those things indicate), why are so many men lagging behind them in those domains now?
There are mandates on companies to hire a certain amount of women regardless of skill. There was a big tech conference for women that men crashed to build connections in this F'd economy, and the response was girls getting mad yet saying that companies are forced to hire women anyway, so it don't matter. Women get a free pass to avoid competition, meanwhile men, especially white, are competing against the world currently for most positions. DEI and ESG, along with many laws, give women a severe advantage into high paying gigs, while undercutting non-minorities out of positions.

There is also the idea that Boomer Ceos are building harems, so leaving men out of jobs while hiring their next sex toy is advantageous to them. Cut competition and bring in more potential screws.

When I look at a lot of failure men I know it's because they basically fried their dopamine receptors on porn/video games/alcohol, to the point where they don't really try to achieve anything in school/work/their personal lives. I've never really met women prone to these sorts of addictions - why is that?
Young men are achieving far less than previous generations thanks to all listed above. With less achievements, comes more loneliness in current year. Weak men are and have always been seen as disposable, whereas women always get some form of aid. Talking from my own experience as a more recent grad, college lacked any of the parties my parents talked about and I continuously worked through most of it doing the shit wagie jobs. Many college students and teachers could be overly hostile, especially when they tried to force political talks. If you gave a non-super liberal take you were demonized with point deductions, an example was me describing someone as half-black which I guessed pissed off a teacher. Many teachers also show clear favoritism towards girls, trying to get them into great programs while leaving you out. Now I am out of college and the economy is shit, meaning I cannot go anywhere socially or economically. I still work two jobs, but it pretty much means nothing as I cannot move out.

From my POV, it is easy to see why many young men are dropping out. People can yell about laziness, but as a Z who has been recorded to have worked far more in my teens than any of my family, you accomplish nothing in doing so. No one but the boomer manager and a few co-workers appreciates your time, and so many of boys' guiding figures gave up on them or hate them. With dating and the current economy being a trainwreck, there are no rewards for boys to hold up society and take the shit, especially when they see your average druggie-criminal get more success with women by throwing up 100 red flags. Easy to get depressed and demoralized by the current state.
 
Interestingly I read that women are alcoholics less often than men but that when they do become ones there's a much worse prognosis and they're more likely to suffer more severe health complications. I think it's largely due to biological differences but also drinks of choice (wine is just worse to be addicted to than beer).
Some of the absolute worst alchys I know are all women. Especially the ones that have jobs with a high level of travel.
 
(I am late gen Z, but I am meditating on when to have a child/children).
Late gen Y here - I've got everything in place to have them (finances, job, house etc.) except someone with XY chromosomes who isn't an alcoholic/troon/unemployed, which is why I'm sympathetic to all the mental gymnastics people go through to avoid contending with the reality of not having kids even if you wanted them. I think all the slop media exists to sort of numb that pain and contrive some kind of meaning out of a life that would be otherwise meaningless without children.
What upsets me about the environmental activists is that they say that children/people that have climate anxiety is a natural reaction to facing human extinction and the only thing that they can do about it to fix is to stop it from happening by doing those extreme things you described.
I swear if you shill veganism to these people they'll always get defensive af - nobody who *actually* cares about the environment would follow any other dietary choice.
Some of the absolute worst alchys I know are all women. Especially the ones that have jobs with a high level of travel.
The only alcoholic woman I know is a SAHM whose son trooned out. It's actually pretty shocking, because he's *not* from a broken home and his dad is a pretty responsible and cool professor who doesn't even drink himself, yet the effect of having an alchy mom is so serious that it broke his mind that badly. She's the only one who supports his trooning too. He's definitely HSTS.
 
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Both incels and Man-hating RadFems forget that society now creates division between boys and girls and is better for no-one.
Also this new woke feminism that ironically includes trans is shitting on what the first feminist movements did.

If more people realize we have common goals and problems, these illiberal culture will get BTFO-ed.
It's not in the interest of the elites for us to get along.
 
I've never really met women prone to these sorts of addictions - why is that?
Why jerk off all day to porn when you can have sex and relationships? Why veg out on video games/shitposting all day when you have a career and friends to be with? The kind of dudes who end up like that are usually mentally ill or losers to begin with.
 
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