Mafia

[The Last Stand]

Well I finally played Mafia: Definitive Edition and it was very meh. So now is your all's chance to tell me how the original was totes better and it's NOT just your nostalgia for a cheap low-budget GTA clone from the Stone Age.

Comparing Mafia to GTA is like comparing orange juice to orange Hi-C. They're two drastically different series in scope, storytelling, and intent.

 

[capitalBBustard]

Well I finally played Mafia: Definitive Edition and it was very meh. So now is your all's chance to tell me how the original was totes better and it's NOT just your nostalgia for a cheap low-budget GTA clone from the Stone Age.

The Mafia 3 nigger crying about the Mafia 3 reskin being bad is hilarious. The demake was butchered to your taste and you hate it.
And the schizo part is that this is that this secondary is shitting on the original Mafia 1 because... he played the dogshit remake that was just Mafia 3 reskinned.

The most textbook case of a butthurt secondary shitting on the old games as a way of coping.
Oh yeah, just cause you asked for it, the original was actually a good game, and your faggotry about muh GTA clone is you being an embarrassing retard crying about a game you didn't play.

 

[UCT]

Regardless of your opinions on Mafia III, it's legacy will always be that of an autistic guy shitting his pants while his mom yells at him.

Literally the only good thing about Mafia 3 to me.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Well, overall I liked Mafia II. It had its weaknesses but it was worth having played, and it definitely felt different than most things.

 

[The Last Stand]

Any game that portrays women from the 20th century is good enough for me.

 

[Big Brown Schlub]

Any game that portrays women from the 20th century is good enough for me.

I bet you liked the collectathon in Mafia 2 bro.

 

[The Last Stand]

I bet you liked the collectathon in Mafia 2 bro.

Yes. I've said that at least twice.

The 60s centerfolds are my personal favorite.

 

[Hazel Motes]

Regardless of your opinions on Mafia III, it's legacy will always be that of an autistic guy shitting his pants while his mom yells at him.

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

Finished the first two games and started the third. Think the first one is my favourite so far, with 2 being a bit of a slower start, but still solid (ending felt a bit abrupt, but that was kind of the point I guess), and both games managed to fine me some ride-or-die bros (well, until Henry turned out to be a fucking rat). Just got the Hollow back in 3 and, so far, it does feel like a kind of departure for the series. Not saying that in a good or bad way. Well, story-wise; gameplay-wise I definitely am dreading the modern open world formula stretching out what could have been a solid experience with annoying, shallow bloat. Story-wise, just more of an observation that there's a shift in framing that could be interesting or annoying depending on how the game progresses.

The other games, you're a mook for the most part who fell into the life and find it wearing on you because Mafia politics are so much bigger than you, leading the protagonists to make questionable decisions that they're in too deep to back out from. Tommy's a family man who wanted out of the life after realizing what he's become, only to find out that it will always follow him. Vito's an ambitious man who wants to live the good life and keep his family protected, but finds himself becoming so violent in preserving his place in the Mafia (and, you know, the constant betrayals) after one or two incidents spiral into war that everyone around him either dies or doesn't want to be around him, ending in the one guy who actually stuck by him still getting fucked over.

So far, the framing in 3 just feels different. Like, by virtue of being video games, our last two protags were obviously murder machines, but they were still treated like normal, if competent guys, who still had to know their place. In 3, so much of the dialogue is telling us how Lincon is doomguy incarnate, or how he trained special forces, or how Cassandra has so many different backstories, or how righteous and important the cause is. It especially feels different for us taking out the bosses to be a comparably trivial matter narrative-wise, when I feel like in the other games it would be a big deal that would have unintended ripple effects. Like, if Vito or Tommy walked up to a crime boss with no actual backing and told them "I'm taking a major cut of all your rackets' profits, you're giving me supplies and a place to lay low", they'd get blasted, but Lincon's an in-universe one-man army so he has that pull even when his only ally is a CIA agent.

Again, I don't know if I like the new direction or not, but it is an interesting distinction to note. And the preacher's protests do make me feel like it might take an interesting route.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

@TheAmbiguousLurker Lincoln Clay is Black Rambo fighting the Mob. Crazy Vietnam vet that gets fucked with and goes guerilla jungle mode in an American setting. That he spends all game running around shooting up places dressed in a combat jacket sets the tone. There's a really cool twist in the end that ties it into some, eh, big real world events. There's a reason the CIA agent is there.

The documentary presentation of a lot of it is really slick, you can tell they borrowed ideas (even some mission ideas) from the original Mafia, but it's a different style from the interrogation/informant angle the first one had.

I don't know if Mafia III is derivative of any movie/show, but it's definitely got a different style. I can appreciate why people who like I and II would have disliked the change when they waited a long time, but to me (and I overall liked Mafia II on my replay) it's better to get variety than just remaking the same shit over and over again (like Star Wars does).

I like Mafia III the most of anyone I knows who played it, but even I got worn out by the open world dross and had to take a long break from it. I found that the story still felt fresh and I understood what was going on when I came back to it later. I'd suggest just doing the minimum necessary to get to the GOD TIER missions and not making yourself clear regions just because you feel like you're expect to.

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

I like Mafia III the most of anyone I knows who played it, but even I got worn out by the open world dross and had to take a long break from it. I found that the story still felt fresh and I understood what was going on when I came back to it later. I'd suggest just doing the minimum necessary to get to the GOD TIER missions and not making yourself clear regions just because you feel like you're expect to.

Is there much point to doing the optional stuff beyond just getting more money and cheaper/convenient vendors? 'Cus I feel like I'm doing fine just working with whatever shit I can pick up off the ground (even if I have to accept that I no longer have my God Tier shotgun/tommygun combo that got me through the last two games)

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Is there much point to doing the optional stuff beyond just getting more money and cheaper/convenient vendors? 'Cus I feel like I'm doing fine just working with whatever shit I can pick up off the ground (even if I have to accept that I no longer have my God Tier shotgun/tommygun combo that got me through the last two games)

Not that I remember. I liked the shooting and individual set piece combat arenas, but the quality in Mafia III is loaded up into the actual missions, not the world.

Basically, they may have said they were making it more like GTA, but they were actually aping Far Cry, and they did the latter as badly as they did the former.

 

[Hazel Motes]

To add to the discussion. What the Mafia 1 remake spoiled, which I still enjoyed playing, comes down to the ending. In the remake it is all about 'family', the two sides of crime. "Family is forever" Tommy tells us. Due to his past, his new actual family, the family he is content with is also the reason why he struggled to be a gangster but also the reason he was one to begin with.

So he is executed and his family rush to be at his side. Despite his death, his true family is finally safe. This is nothing special. It it derivative of other films and TV show which did the whole family theme better. The Sopranos and Goodfellas come to mind as works that speak of the double and alienation that our work lives can have on the reasons why we work. It is a theme that is required for this sort of gangster story, not originating from any personal interest in exploring its theme. I could hear Vin Diesel say Tommy's speech on 'family being our greatest weakness and our greatest strength' in a Fast & Furious film. It is serviceable for a videogame as were the hiccups in the story of Mafia 2, but it does not make it good.

The ending of the original Mafia was different. Tommy dies (no family rushes out to hear his last words like a soap opera). We hear his disconnected voice, as though he is in the underworld looking back on the same story we have finished and he says:

"You know, the world isn't run by the laws written on paper. It's run by people. Some according to laws, others not. It depends on each individual how his world will be, how he makes it. And you also need a whole lot of luck, so that somebody else doesn't make your life hell. And it ain't as simple as they tell you in grade school. But it is good to have strong values and to maintain them. In marriage, in crime, in war, always and everywhere. I messed up. So did Paulie and Sam. We wanted a better life, but in the end we were a lot worse off than most other people. You know, I think it's important to keep a balance in things. Yeah, balance, that's the right word. Because the guy who wants too much risks losing absolutely everything. Of course, the guy who wants too little from life, might not get anything at all."

This is mediative. Ethical without degrading into moralism. Philosophical without sacrificing the humanity of Tommy's death. His story is personal but also a reflection on contradictions of life. Tommy struggles to answer his own story and leaves us thinking about what to make of it. The gangster film it shares most in common with is Once Upon a Time in America (my understanding is the final scene of Mafia 1 is modelled on the areas where Deborah and Noodles, uh, well you know). Both want to leave the audience with something to think about and question about themselves. They do not have answers because real people rarely do. The remake barely scratches similar ground.

Mafia 1 is a very dated game in a way even early GTAs are not. If I was given the option to play it again, I would decline. However, GTA, not even IV, or later Mafia games had a story as interesting. Games are bigger now. Sandbox have to be to be modern. To tell an epic tale is harder because of it, I think.

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

Finished the first act (at least, I'm assuming that's what the forming of the crew is), and the open-world structure is really not helping the story. Feels like it forces the characters to front load what would be an emotional payoff too early (Like, I'd probably feel more for Cassandra and Burke's emotional scenes if it wasn't basically my introduction to them.) and makes them feel like disconnected quest givers. And the way the next stretch of missions is set up with Donavan is making me afraid that our underbosses are basically gonna take a back seat now if I'm not doing their optional non-story missions.

I do like the reveal of the villain's motivation, having him just trying to find a viable path to retirement before his son ends up dead is a nice twist. In a way, it kind of makes him more like Tommy, with the Player now being the past hunting him down. And the priest's line about 'If all you look for is evil, you'll be finding it everywhere' was poignant; wish it was an actual cutscene though.

You can tell that one writer in the creative team has been waiting all their life for a free pass to spam as many slurs as they can, and they're having the time of their life. Like every third piece of dialogue is looking for some excuse to bring niggers, micks and gooks into the equation. I respect it.

Also, on Mafia 2, I was wondering: Am I just a little bitch, or was the fight with Derrick a nightmare? I swear, I replayed that level so many times that I had taking out the dock crew in a single sweep down to a science. I remember barricading myself in his office, thinking I'd finally found a spot I could hunker down in, only for those rat bastards to spawn right behind me.

 

[The Last Stand]

"You know, the world isn't run by the laws written on paper. It's run by people. Some according to laws, others not. It depends on each individual how his world will be, how he makes it. And you also need a whole lot of luck, so that somebody else doesn't make your life hell. And it ain't as simple as they tell you in grade school. But it is good to have strong values and to maintain them. In marriage, in crime, in war, always and everywhere. I messed up. So did Paulie and Sam. We wanted a better life, but in the end we were a lot worse off than most other people. You know, I think it's important to keep a balance in things. Yeah, balance, that's the right word. Because the guy who wants too much risks losing absolutely everything. Of course, the guy who wants too little from life, might not get anything at all."

The first and last line of his monologue resonates to me. I do think it's subjective with how either ending "fits" with Tommy's characyer development within the Mafia. I feel the remake wanted the audience to be more intimate with Tommy and his family instead of having them be background characters to establish the toll of gangster life.

This is mediative. Ethical without degrading into moralism. Philosophical without sacrificing the humanity of Tommy's death. His story is personal but also a reflection on contradictions of life. Tommy struggles to answer his own story and leaves us thinking about what to make of it. The gangster film it shares most in common with is Once Upon a Time in America (my understanding is the final scene of Mafia 1 is modelled on the areas where Deborah and Noodles, uh, well you know). Both want to leave the audience with something to think about and question about themselves. They do not have answers because real people rarely do. The remake barely scratches similar ground.

I suppose that's why each character in the first Mafia game did not have much "personality." Less is more; tell a story of a guy being roped into that life during a turbulent time period in America. Stuff like that makes me appreciate video games from that era that embrace their limitations while expanding the medium experience with various results. It wasn't meant to be GTA. It was meant to be a story of that life.

 

[Big Brown Schlub]

Also, on Mafia 2, I was wondering: Am I just a little bitch, or was the fight with Derrick a nightmare?

Nah, that fight is widely known as the most difficult part of the game.

I suppose that's why each character in the first Mafia game did not have much "personality." Less is more; tell a story of a guy being roped into that life during a turbulent time period in America.

Speaking of, I've beaten the Remake recently and one thing I found weird is how in their changes to the story Tommy really doesn't come across as someone who was roped into the life at all. You can see it in the very beginning, in the original you can see that Tommy was shitting bricks when two gangsters came out of nowhere and forced him to drive and lose a bunch of other gangsters who are actively chasing and shooting after them. In the remake he is completely stonefaced and straight up opening the doors to the cab for Paulie and Sam. He comes across as way more aggressive and sociopathic on one hand but on the other they kept the parts which show that he isn't a stonefaced killer that's cut out for the life, like when he hesitates to kill the two punks who wanted to rape Sarah or when he lets Frank and his family go. It's very bizarre and jarring.

 

[capitalBBustard]

That's a particular quality to numakes like Mafia, Dead Space, Resident Evil 4 etc, the hacks rewriting the script are making changes linearly. They just alter a part of it in a vacuum without caring about how it relates to the rest of the original script. So you end up with wildly schizophrenic behaviour between the parts that were altered more vs the parts that stayed relatively the same.

 

[IDanceonTrannyGraves]

That's a particular quality to numakes like Mafia, Dead Space, Resident Evil 4 etc, the hacks rewriting the script are making changes linearly. They just alter a part of it in a vacuum without caring about how it relates to the rest of the original script. So you end up with wildly schizophrenic behaviour between the parts that were altered more vs the parts that stayed relatively the same.

I've only played the Mafia 1 remake. I don't remember anything particularly egregious other thank the AI being kind of bad.

 

[The Last Stand]

n the remake he is completely stonefaced and straight up opening the doors to the cab for Paulie and Sam. He comes across as way more aggressive and sociopathic on one hand but on the other they kept the parts which show that he isn't a stonefaced killer that's cut out for the life, like when he hesitates to kill the two punks who wanted to rape Sarah or when he lets Frank and his family go. It's very bizarre and jarring.

I recall @SiccDicc complaining that Sarah was written as a brash suffragist. Meanwhile, in the original, she only appeared blink twice and you'll miss her.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I do like the reveal of the villain's motivation, having him just trying to find a viable path to retirement before his son ends up dead is a nice twist. In a way, it kind of makes him more like Tommy, with the Player now being the past hunting him down. And the priest's line about 'If all you look for is evil, you'll be finding it everywhere' was poignant; wish it was an actual cutscene though.

If you actually finish it, you are going to love the final confrontation.