Did Nazi Germany have oil? Would Germany have curbed stomped everyone if they never invaded the Soviets? Tank sperging. Debate it all here.

[Radola Gajda]

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https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-war-hang-on-in-2024-to-win-in-2025-putin-zelenskky-russia-counteroffensive/

https://ghostarchive.org/archive/hek8b

Really funny article. 1941- 1942 period of recovery and preparations on both sides. Lol . Operation Barbarossa, Case Blue, Pearl Harbor. Japanese invasion of European colonies .... Are really tiny things that had no effect on war.

 

[Cold Root Beer]

It seems I overestimated how much the situation would deteriorate over the course of two weeks. I really thought things would have fallen apart more by now.

This is a conventional war (which the west hasn't seen in a long time and hasn't fought since 1950). Things go slow, and the risks of overextending are too high.

Russia has every reason to go at a safe speed. It's not like American wars where the clock of public support is constantly draining rapidly so you're compelled to go to extreme lengths to chalk up "wins" at a rapidly increasing pace.

For comparison, the Battle of Berlin was two weeks and the only reason it wasn't longer was because Hitler's suicide ended it. And that was the massed force of the Red Army raining nonstop Katyusha rockets and artillery against severely depleted and demoralized German troops and Volkstrum.

 

[Strix454]

View attachment 5749391
Really funny article. 1941- 1942 period of recovery and preparations on both sides. Lol . Operation Barbarossa, Case Blue, Pearl Harbor. Japanese invasion of European colonies .... Are really tiny things that had no effect on war.

Claiming that 1916 was a year of recovery and preparation is even worse. 1916 was the year of the British attack on the Somme and the Battles at Verdun.

And what did it lead to? 1917 was NOT a good year. There was the Battle of Caporetto in Italy where the entire front collapsed. There was the insanity of the battle of Passchendaele. You also had revolution knock Russia out of war. You also had the French Army mutinies.

 

[Kane Lives]

For comparison, the Battle of Berlin was two weeks and the only reason it wasn't longer was because Hitler's suicide ended it. And that was the massed force of the Red Army raining nonstop Katyusha rockets and artillery against severely depleted and demoralized German troops and Volkstrum.

Technically only nine days (23rd to 30th April), but they did capture most of the city by the end of week 1. And yeah, they were greatly helped by the fact that:
a) they were facing literal militia, schoolboys and old men
b) no fucks were given about collateral. If a building had defenders in it, it was levelled by artillery
c) most of Russians storming the city were seasoned veterans; one of them was even from Stalingrad (Chuikov's 62nd Army, now promoted to 8th Guard)
d) Germans were very much running out of even small arms ammunition by the 30th.

 

[The Ugly One]

the end result was inevitable the moment the germans invaded russia and everyone involved accepted that and has for literally decades.

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war. The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

-Joseph Stalin, November 1943, Tehran

""If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."

-Nikita Krushchev, personal memoirs

There is nothing even resembling a consensus that without Lend-Lease, the Allied blockade, Sicily, and Normandy, not to mention a variety of moronic tactical, strategic, and logistically moronic decisions by Mr Mustache Man, the outcome would have still been the Red Army in Berlin by 1945.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

-Joseph Stalin, November 1943, Tehran

That is the translation of a toast Stalin supposedly gave at the Tehran Conference where he was intentionally trying to insult and piss off Churchill any way he could. Also, that "we" was referring to the Allies as a whole and not just Russia in particular. Stalin trusted none of these people at the time and every word he said or supposedly said should be weighed with calculated geopolitical strategy in mind.

 

[The Ugly One]

That is the translation of a toast Stalin supposedly gave at the Tehran Conference where he was intentionally trying to piss off Churchill any way he could. Also, that "we" was referring to the Allies as a whole and not just Russia in particular. Stalin trusted none of these people at the time and every word he said or supposedly said should be weighed with calculated geopolitical strategy in mind.

It makes no difference. Claims about a universal consensus are pretty easy to disprove, you only need a single counterexample. The post I'm responding to says everybody involved--so that would include all the politicians, generals, and industrial magnates--acknowledged that Allied efforts had no effect on the outcome of the war. This is demonstrably false. And I can find quote after quote after quote showing that, no, the people involved definitely thought that what they did made a difference.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

It makes no difference. Claims about a universal consensus are pretty easy to disprove, you only need a single counterexample. The post I'm responding to says everybody involved--so that would include Krushchev, Stalin, Churchill, Truman, Eisenhower, Nixon, etc--acknowledged that Allied efforts had no effect on the outcome of the war. This is demonstrably false. And I can find quote after quote after quote showing that, no, the people involved definitely thought that what they did made a difference.

It makes a very big difference. Stalin wasn't singing the US' praises with that, he was saying Fuck You to Winston Churchill if that's even what he really said.

Lend Lease didn't even provide much to Russia until two years after Barbarossa failed. Germany could not win after retreating from Russia. US arms only sped up the inevitable.

 

[Susanna]

It's also a quote from 1945, before the state of the German army was fully analysed and understood. That Khruschev agreed with this decades later in order to discredit Stalin only reveals what a despicable worm he was. In hindsight it's plain to see that they essentially got lucky in France, and stood no chance against the Soviet Union, but at the time they genuinely seemed hypercompetently led (Rommel in particular is part of this) and a decade ahead technologically (because of the illusion that allied bombing campaigns were what shut down the factories, rather than the fact that the tanks just weren't well designed for mass production to begin with). They had some initial successes, but so did Napoleon. Russia is not a country you can invade with shoddy logistics, and only the SS units were fully mechanised. Most of the Wehrmacht were supplied by horse-drawn carriage, which is not at all practical in Russian spring weather. The SS units themselves were not very effectively led, focusing more on committing atrocities and achieving fame than at actually accomplishing military objectives.

Nobody's disputing that lend-lease helped quicken the war, but the idea that "American war machines" won the war is silly. The tanks and planes received were garbage the US army didn't want, as evidenced by the extremely poor reputation of the P-39 in that country (which was actually fairly popular among USSR pilots) or the fact that the M3 tank received the nickname "Seven Men's Coffin". Soviet tanks were far superior (the T34 in particular is famous for a reason, it was cheap to produce, well armoured, got a superb gun with the turret upgrade, and had a revolutionary engine. Soviet aircraft, in turn, were nowhere near as bad as westerners perceive them. They couldn't climb as well as German planes did, but on this front most aircraft fights took place at low altitudes, where planes like the Yak-3 excelled. Foreign pilots flying for the Red Army consistently sang its praises compared to western aircraft.

The best help from lend-lease came in the form of lorries, which were significantly superior to anything the Soviet Union was producing at the time. These lorries allowed the Red Army to move supplies to the front much faster than the Germans could reinforce themselves, especially when they ran out of petrol. This massively sped up the war effort, and let it be conducted with fewer casualties, but it didn't ultimately affect the outcome: Total denazification (of sorts).

Stalin wasn't singing the US' praises with that, he was saying Fuck You to Winston Churchill.

Speaking of which, the British equipment received from lend-lease was pretty much universally considered death traps. Planes like the Spitfire are well acclaimed in the west, but the samples the east received were obsolete hangar queens. Churchill deserved all the fuck yous he got, and that's not even mentioning the atrocities the anglos committed in India.

 

[The Ugly One]

It makes a very big difference. Stalin wasn't singing the US' praises with that, he was saying Fuck You to Winston Churchill if that's even what he really said.

And yet, that's what he is said to have said, and it's consistent with what Krushchev said he said in private as well. Did Stalin later insist that Allied efforts in fact had no effect?

Lend Lease didn't even provide much to Russia until two years after Barbarossa failed. Germany could not win after retreating Russia. US arms only sped up the inevitable.

The argument is not over whether you, personally, think the Red Army would have ended up in Berlin one way or another. The argument is over whether or not it is a universal consensus of everyone involved in WWII that Allied efforts had no effect on the war's outcome.

It is not. It only takes one person to make a consensus not universal.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

And yet, that's what he is said to have said, and it's consistent with what Krushchev said he said in private as well. Did Stalin later insist that Allied efforts in fact had no effect?



The argument is not over whether you, personally, think the Red Army would have ended up in Berlin one way or another. The argument is over whether or not it is a universal consensus of everyone involved in WWII that Allied efforts had no effect on the war's outcome.

It is not. It only takes one person to make a consensus not universal.

Germany had no domestic petroleum resources to make fuel. That's why they invaded Russia in the first place. Without oil they lose eventually no matter what, same as today. All the wunderwaffle in the world is irrelevant with nothing to run them on.

 

[The Ugly One]

Germany had no domestic petroleum resources to make fuel. That's why they invaded Russia in the first place.

Why didn't hey just import oil from Iran or the United States?

 

[WonderWino]

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war. The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

-Joseph Stalin, November 1943, Tehran

""If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."

-Nikita Krushchev, personal memoirs

There is nothing even resembling a consensus that without Lend-Lease, the Allied blockade, Sicily, and Normandy, not to mention a variety of moronic tactical, strategic, and logistically moronic decisions by Mr Mustache Man, the outcome would have still been the Red Army in Berlin by 1945.

Those statements have long been acknowledged as utter bs. They were when they were made as well. Thats literal propaganda you're repeating that was stated for political purposes. There was never any possibility whatsoever of germany winning a war against russia, with or without allied support. Its not even physically possible for germany to have been able to conquer, let alone realistically occupy a country the size of russia, to say nothing of every other problem with the concept

and by the way, the resources the russians obtained from the west weren't even provided in any usable amounts until well after germany was already well past the point of being fucked

I'll say it again - at best allied support only sped up what was inevitably going to happen anyway

Why didn't hey just import oil from Iran or the United States?

Is that a serious question? Yes, why wouldn't germany import and rely on oil from two enemy countries in britains side. There is no way that would end badly at all. Most of what they had came from romania and it was never enough. Nobody else was going to give them shit for reasons that you'd think would be blatantly obvious

 

[Rubick]

Germany, running out of fuel is frankly youtube historian horseshit. If that was the case you'd think some could point out the fuel strain before 1944.

 

[The Ugly One]

Those statements have long been acknowledged as utter bs.

When did Krushchev disavow what he said in his memoirs?

and by the way, the resources the russians obtained from the west weren't even provided in any usable amounts until well after germany was already well past the point of being fucked

Battle of Kursk, which is the official "Germany was fucked after this" point, was July 1943. Lend-Lease kicked into high gear in 1942.

 

[Susanna]

Why didn't hey just import oil from Iran or the United States?

Because of the royal navy? Yank tankers would have a hard time getting past Britain, and while the Italian fleet controlled the mediterranean, that was only because the Brits didn't feel like devoting the resources to stamp them out just to supply Malta. If Germany was receiving shipments of oil through the region that calculus would have changed and the Italian fleet sunk.
Brits did have a pretty good surface fleet. Iran was under the anglo jackboot anyway, Germany would have first needed to invade the place, and I'm sure the Brits would just set fire to the oil fields the moment they came too close for comfort.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Germany, running out of fuel is frankly youtube historian horseshit. If that was the case you'd think some could point out the fuel strain before 1944.

Germany had no natural petroleum resources. It was such a crisis they even tried inventing synthetic fuel. The reason Hitler invaded Russia (and the continent of Africa) was to capture petroleum. This isn't a controversial thing, it's been established fact for over 80 years. Your high school history teachers have failed you spectacularly and whatever schools you attended should be razed. This is nuts.

 

[The Ugly One]

Because of the royal navy? Yank tankers would have a hard time getting past Britain, and while the Italian fleet controlled the mediterranean, that was only because the Brits didn't feel like devoting the resources to stamp them out just to supply Malta. If Germany was receiving shipments of oil through the region that calculus would have changed and the Italian fleet sunk.
Brits did have a pretty good surface fleet. Iran was under the anglo jackboot anyway, Germany would have first needed to invade the place, and I'm sure the Brits would just set fire to the oil fields the moment they came too close for comfort.

Germany had no natural petroleum resources. It was such a crisis they even tried inventing synthetic fuel. The reason Hitler invaded Russia was to capture petroleum. This isn't a controversial thing, it's been established fact for over 80 years. Your high school teachers have failed you spectacularly and whatever schools you attended should be razed. This is nuts.

Wow, the way you go on about it, sounds like the Royal Navy was a major factor in Germany's defeat.

Also, @SaidNoOneEver, no, Germany did not invade the USSR because it needed petroleum. The USSR shipped Germany all the petroleum it needed. Stalin even sought to join the Axis in 1940. Hitler ordered the invasion of the USSR because he hated Slavs, wanted to cleanse the land of its inhabitants, and repopulate the area with Germans.

 

[Rubick]

Germany had no natural petroleum resources. It was such a crisis they even tried inventing synthetic fuel. The reason Hitler invaded Russia was to capture petroleum. This isn't a controversial thing, it's been established fact for over 80 years. Your high school teachers have failed you spectacularly and whatever schools you attended should be razed.

And yet somehow Germans where able to do large scale operation until into 1944.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

And yet somehow Germans where able to do large scale operation until into 1944.

Where was Germany doing large scale operations after 1941/42? Invasions and such? I swear it's like I woke up in bizarro world today.