Race relations: Is it all the same?

[Male Idiot]

I'm going to come across as a dick here and thats not my intention but whatever. You don't actually believe a country thats been through slavery, Jim Crow, manifest destiny, the war on drugs, segregation and a civil rights movement that included high ranking government officials attempting to launch smear campaigns against Dr. King has never had worse race relations than now?

Its a very popular sentiment that race relations have regressed during the Obama years but honestly when you really look at it. There has been virtually no significant growth since the civil rights movement.

Think about it: Dr. Martin Luther King, who is easily the most radically pacifist activist in Black history was shot to death. The guy screaming peace got shot and if that doesn't tell the story of race relations in the 60s this was also the time period when a voting rights act, that was eventually gutted, had to be passed so that black people could vote without being attacked and disenfranchised.
The 70s brought in Nixon and his call to "The silent majority" which is pretty widely recognized as a dog whistle for fighting back against the civil rights movement and Black people. This set a nice groundwork for the war on drugs in the 80s which jailed and is jailing an obnoxious amount of disproportionately but of course not exclusively black and brown people for non-violent crimes or first time offenses. Bush pt. 1 practically won off of a campaign ad that inferred that Dukakis was cool with black criminals attacking people.
We're all probably pretty familiar with the super predator rhetoric and the crime laws that came under the Clinton Administration. Also like 12 Muslims made shit bad for brown people all around the world but in particular here in the U.S. and Bush was pretty "tough on immigration" and thats just kinda touching on all the problems Latino and Hispanic people would have had with white people.

Really when you look at it, we just convinced ourselves that things were better because the rioting mostly stopped. Very little has changed from the 50s and 60s until now. Voter disenfranchisement is still rampant like it was back then, cops are still killing black and brown people people and mostly white people are saying its justified like they were back then, and we're still divided like we were back then.

So you are telling me that googles still have to give up their seats on the bus? Colour me sceptical.

 

[Mason Verger]

I live in a fairly progressive part of the U.S., there's racism for laughs, because uncomfortable things are often the funniest subjects, but you rarely saw true outward, hate filled rascism. That kinda changed after Obama was elected. It's as if once a black guy was in power it was okay to hate him, and suddenly "nigger" was back on the table. It's an interesting comment on tribalism that once power is perceived you must resist.

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

So you are telling me that googles still have to give up their seats on the bus? Colour me sceptical.

Buses are no longer legally segregated but our schools still are thanks to things like school selection. And white people still more often than not throw a royal fuss if their schools are about to get intergrated.

Cmon man. You all are a grounded realpolitik bunch. You can tangle with the idea that race relations havent really changed since the 50s or 60s. Trump is running a whole compaign based off of white resentment right now. While were on the topic virtually everyone running for president right now was alive during the civil rights movement. Clinton was a goldwater girl. Why do we have such a hard time accepting that things may not have really changed much at all in 50 years?

 

[Jan_Hus]

Buses are no longer legally segregated but our schools still are thanks to things like school selection. And white people still more often than not throw a royal fuss if their schools are about to get intergrated.

Cmon man. You all are a grounded realpolitik bunch. You can tangle with the idea that race relations havent really changed since the 50s or 60s. Trump is running a whole compaign based off of white resentment right now. While were on the topic virtually everyone running for president right now was alive during the civil rights movement. Clinton was a goldwater girl. Why do we have such a hard time accepting that things may not have really changed much at all in 50 years?

Because things actually have changed for the better. And things are still getting better. Especially down in the South. Change happens incredibly slowly, change is also insanely difficult. You rush things, you get reactionaries.

 

[ICametoLurk]

You rush things, you get reactionaries.

Victoria 2 taught you well.

 

[Jan_Hus]

Victoria 2 taught you well.

That it has, that it has.

 

[AnOminous]

Buses are no longer legally segregated but our schools still are thanks to things like school selection. And white people still more often than not throw a royal fuss if their schools are about to get intergrated.

Cmon man. You all are a grounded realpolitik bunch. You can tangle with the idea that race relations havent really changed since the 50s or 60s. Trump is running a whole compaign based off of white resentment right now. While were on the topic virtually everyone running for president right now was alive during the civil rights movement. Clinton was a goldwater girl. Why do we have such a hard time accepting that things may not have really changed much at all in 50 years?

This is why I always kick black people out of the front seats of the bus when I want to sit there, because it's the law.

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

Because things actually have changed for the better. And things are still getting better. Especially down in the South. Change happens incredibly slowly, change is also insanely difficult. You rush things, you get reactionaries.

The south? The place where a white guy shot up a black church? Where a white cop shot the shit out of a 50 something year old black ma? The place where the trayvon martin controversy that sparked the BLM movement happened? Dallas cop shootings? The place where theres still an argument over whether or not the confederate flag is offensive to black people? The place where a black man was found hung from a tree earlier this year iirc.

I live in the South. And Ive lived in the North. The North has its share of racism, sure. But theres this idea that because southerners say "how you doin" to each other that racism is less present. Go to a southern college campus and check yik yak and compare it with what you'll see in the north. The south is still simmering with a lot of racial discontent on both sides.


Although I agree with you that it does take time. Thats why Im saying 50 years historically is barely a blink. Were a 200 something year old country so we think everything should happen over night. And that it is happening over night. But when were seeing poor race relations we really shouldnt say stuff like "shouldnt we be over this" or "things were never this bad." Very little time has passed since the civil rights movement and in alot of ways were still reeling from it. We'd be less stunned at crazy shit happening if we realize it hasn't been that long since we were spraying people with fire hydrants for trying to vote.

 

[Jan_Hus]

The south? The place where a white guy shot up a black church? Where a white cop shot the shit out of a 50 something year old black ma? The place where the trayvon martin controversy that sparked the BLM movement happened? Dallas cop shootings? The place where theres still an argument over whether or not the confederate flag is offensive to black people? The place where a black man was found hung from a tree earlier this year iirc.

I live in the South. And Ive lived in the North. The North has its share of racism, sure. But theres this idea that because southerners say "how you doin" to each other that racism is less present. Go to a southern college campus and check yik yak and compare it with what you'll see in the north. The south is still simmering with a lot of racial discontent on both sides.


Although I agree with you that it does take time. Thats why Im saying 50 years historically is barely a blink. Were a 200 something year old country so we think everything should happen over night. And that it is happening over night. But when were seeing poor race relations we really shouldnt say stuff like "shouldnt we be over this" or "things were never this bad." Very little time has passed since the civil rights movement and in alot of ways were still reeling from it. We'd be less stunned at crazy shit happening if we realize it hasn't been that long since we were spraying people with fire hydrants for trying to vote.

*TEXT WALL BELOW*
Couple points.
Removal of the confederate flag was a bipartisan effort in many places, especially in SC.
Everybody was fucking enraged at Dylan Roof, and we all hope to see that fucker burn.
Dallas Shooter was a Loveshy idiot who used activism to justify his hatred, and again, people were pissed off on both sides of the isle.
Using Yik Yak to accurately gauge people's feelings... Try again. Remember, people really, really like to troll when they are anonymous

Look at the reactions to the event, not the event itself.

And I'm not talking about the backwoods part of the South (Lol other white people don't even go to those places), that haven't seen an outside human being for 50 years, I'm talking about the mainstream South, where most people live, work and interact together.

Also, people aren't pissed at BLM for protesting racial injustice, they're pissed at them for blocking traffic, being Marxists (that's a very quick way to piss off the collective American consciousness), MIZZOU and other Campus protests and interrupting political candidates for their 15 minutes. Have you read their list of demands? Plus their leaders are a whole 'nother level of insufferable. I really don't like someone like Deray or Shaun King lecturing me on my supposed privilege, when one is a prestigious "journalist" who can blame "white America" for the Dallas shootings, and the other lives in a fucking mansion. I also don't like it that they're of the "White Guilt" school of thought about white educators who want to work in an inner city.

And, the fact that the Civil Rights Movement happened around 50 years ago is such a non starter. Western countries thought genocide was okay around 60-70 years ago.

 

[vertexwindi]

Until reading this thread I didn't know how bad gypsies were. We do have them in our country but not up north where I live.

Fun fact, my best friend actually is a gypsy but she was adopted and moved here at the age of two so she acts like a really white girl. I'm going to have to tease her about her roots, though.

 

[WhiteZauberei]

A little input on rascism on college level, here in Europe.

I'd say rascism isn't really that present at a college level, mostly because it's just considered to be emotional and not rational, therefore not academic behaviour. Might be different in - let's say Russia - where openly gay scientists are discriminated against by the government interfering with law. I also heard some stories about some rascist professor, but that's a little bit OT.

What I do can say though is that there are some prejudices and expectations regarding some ethnicities and that's the closest thing you basically have regarding rascism. At my college we have something like a language school and I know some teachers pretty well to the point where they would tell me, which students perform well in language education and which don't. This is about people learning languages by some exchange program and not people picking it up at an early stage in life. I will say in advance, that this is sure as hell biased, since most of the languages taught are European languages.

Top tier, not too much trouble learning languages, usually not too much of an accent: Germanic roots (excluding Americans and English people, so German, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, etc.); Slavs (Polish, Czech, Russian, etc.);
Sometimes Top Tier, often below: Indians (although this one is a little bit controversial; they seem to pick it up easily, but most of them don't seem to be eager to learn languages. If they do, they usually excel, but they tend to have accents, which might lead to worse grading) and Chinese (probably attributed to their dictatorial politics, since only the best students are allowed to visit foreign countries. Even if you meet a competent Chinese it seems like they have to put a lot more effort into their education and their speaking level is usually worse than their level in writing. It's usually a hit or miss)
Problematic tier, usually sub-par skills, but many notable exceptions: Romance roots (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc.), British people, maybe Australian, some Arabs, Turks. They do seem to grasp most language concepts, but then just stop learning. Pronounciation is usually off.
Shitty tier, usually feels like they don't want to learn languages: Americans, Canadians, Mexicans, South Americans, Japanese, Koreans, other East Asians, some Arabs, Africans (not too much data, collides with French due to colonialism and black people in Europe being generally French). These groups feature students, who study here in Europe and somehow think they can get away with not learning another language. And even if they do or if they're language students, they usually seem to be incredibily awful, whether it's incomprehensible pronounciation, unacceptable work ethic or just stupidity to the point, where they don't understand basic concepts like causality in languages.

So you have basically this food chain: Northern Europe + Russia -> Southern Europe + Britain + China and India -> North and South America + Rest of Asia + Arabs/Turks + Africa. This usually goes for all languages taught and it's also about work ethic. So why do I post this here in "race relations"? It also has to do a lot with perceived reliability. I study a natural science and I have the feeling that we also think of papers published with nearly the same ranking I just wrote: Northern European (including Brits) papers are yay, Southern European papers are nay. Asians are a mixed bag, Africans and South Americans are not present and Americans can be everything between "wow!" and "oh god no". So it's basically the same with Americans being considered to be random.

You get a different picture when it's about guiding students around the campus. I also have some experience with our international office and in general there is that same Northern and Southern European clash: Northern Europeans (includings Brits again) get all the things like flat, visa and enrollment done without much help needed, Southern Europeans tend to be really tedious, late and unreliable, same with South and North America.
Japanese are usually easy, but sometimes difficult to work with due to their shyness. Indians and Chinese are really clingy. Korean female students tend to be really obnoxious. Not too much data on African students.
Surprisingly positive image of Arabs though, even though interactions always seem distant due to completely different outlooks on the world. Appointments with Arabs suck though, since they don't seem to care about being on time.

What I do find interesting is the fact, that you rarely meet real Africans. Therefore there is little knowledge about how well they perform, but in reverse that also leads to us believing, that Africans just don't attend college. Same might be said about women from Muslim countries. With South and North Americans (and Australians) you just assume that they don't visit Europe though.

______________________________________________

tl;dr: Race relations seem to be not too present on a college level, but they are there!

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

*TEXT WALL BELOW*
Couple points.
Removal of the confederate flag was a bipartisan effort in many places, especially in SC.
Everybody was fucking enraged at Dylan Roof, and we all hope to see that fucker burn.
Dallas Shooter was a Loveshy idiot who used activism to justify his hatred, and again, people were pissed off on both sides of the isle.
Using Yik Yak to accurately gauge people's feelings... Try again. Remember, people really, really like to troll when they are anonymous

Look at the reactions to the event, not the event itself.

And I'm not talking about the backwoods part of the South (Lol other white people don't even go to those places), that haven't seen an outside human being for 50 years, I'm talking about the mainstream South, where most people live, work and interact together.

Also, people aren't pissed at BLM for protesting racial injustice, they're pissed at them for blocking traffic, being Marxists (that's a very quick way to piss off the collective American consciousness), MIZZOU and other Campus protests and interrupting political candidates for their 15 minutes. Have you read their list of demands? Plus their leaders are a whole 'nother level of insufferable. I really don't like someone like Deray or Shaun King lecturing me on my supposed privilege, when one is a prestigious "journalist" who can blame "white America" for the Dallas shootings, and the other lives in a fucking mansion. I also don't like it that they're of the "White Guilt" school of thought about white educators who want to work in an inner city.

And, the fact that the Civil Rights Movement happened around 50 years ago is such a non starter. Western countries thought genocide was okay around 60-70 years ago.

I saw the reaction to the dylan roof shootings. People clutched onto their flag and repeatedly denied history. Most white Charlestonians and south carolinians were more upset that Roof "gave our city/state a bad name" and even in the wake of that shooting many were furious that the idea of the flag was being taken down was even floated let alone happened. The poltiicians did it because itd be terrible PR not to.

Im talking about the mainstream south. There are dumb rednecks in New York if you drive far enough. Everyone knows that.

Dr. King "blocked traffic" and held "marxist ideas ." Activism is never a comfortable experience. Ever. I dont really understand why one would think it is. Im pretty sure Deray doesnt live in a mansion and King does in fact write for a paper and use valid sources from what I see. Hes also no longer affiliated with Deray.

Youre talking out of both sides of your mouth with the genocide thing because you were just saying things dont change that fast so we need patience. Either they change over night or they don't.

Most black people cant stand white guilt, Deray and King included. Like, alot of white people assume black people or POC want you to feel bad and no one really gives a fuck about how you feel. What black people want is change. Community policing with properly trained cops who don't just start spraying when something goes remotely different then they expected because "I wanted to go home and see my family," solutions to segregated schools, ways to combat inequality and discrimination and racist ideology.

I feel like if you're actually listening to what some of these people are saying "feel guilty" is a very hard conclusion to come to.

 

[yuna]

determining whether or not race relations have improved is kind of a tricky thing, in my opinion. black people in America have, without question, been treated much, much worse in the past. their status in American society has moved forward by leaps and bounds. so yes, the overall quality of life has improved for black people.

that isn't the same thing as an improvement in race relations. kind of a pedantic argument, i know, but i think it's an important distinction to make. black people are now allowed to vocalize their dissatisfaction with their position in society and the manner in which racism holds them back today. at least, it's more or less socially acceptable when compared to the 1950s. that makes starting protests seem less dangerous, being an activist seem a little bit easier to black folks who are really pissed about current events. that makes protests and, ultimately, riots more likely, and those will be publicized. everyone's tense right now because of the BLM movement. race relations are worse, because that uneasy (at best) peace that we had disintegrated when this shit started, wherever you want to claim that it did. with dissatisfaction over Obama's presidency, with the inception of BLM, it doesn't matter.

if anything, race relations are about as bad as the 1950s. i wouldn't go so far as to say they're just as bad, but it's close. it's no longer acceptable to tell someone you won't serve them because of their skin color, but that doesn't mean that blacks and whites aren't similarly keyed up about the situation.

tl;dr, things are getting better for those of color, but race relations aren't.

What black people want is change. Community policing with properly trained cops who don't just start spraying when something goes remotely different then they expected because "I wanted to go home and see my family," solutions to segregated schools, ways to combat inequality and discrimination and racist ideology.

I feel like if you're actually listening to what some of these people are saying "feel guilty" is a very hard conclusion to come to.

i have yet to see someone proposing legitimate and viable solutions to the underlying issues perpetuating the inequality in this country. saying "i want things to be better" won't make shit better. acknowledging the issue is important, that's step one, but the discussion ceases to matter if nobody actually knows how to fix the problem. not to mention the fact that BLM protesters are fucking obnoxious in how they go about everything.

so the "white guilt" thing isn't really the biggest problem here.

 

[Male Idiot]

Well this argues against your claims of the stasis in race relations.

"You gotta hire a nigger instead!" Yeah just like the 60s. lol.

Also, gypsies have a tendency to take a shit on the crime scene, they think it gives bad mojo to the cops.

Personal theory: This could be just cops a hundred years ago being distracted by shit, so this becomes a superstition. Maybe shit smeared fingerprints are harder to identify?

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

i have yet to see someone proposing legitimate and viable solutions to the underlying issues perpetuating the inequality in this country. saying "i want things to be better" won't make shit better. acknowledging the issue is important, that's step one, but the discussion ceases to matter if nobody actually knows how to fix the problem. not to mention the fact that BLM protesters are fucking obnoxious in how they go about everything.

so the "white guilt" thing isn't really the biggest problem here.

I think the whole no one is proposing anything valid or feasible thing is another popular strain of thought thats not really reality. Of course a complete end to racism isn't anywhere near America's or humanity's future but alot of the ideas arent exactly rocket science. Properly trained police officers, stopping blatant voter disenfranchisement, actually convicting cops when they kill people for ridiculous or racist reasons, police officers being less whiny and not threatening to stop doing their jobs because people criticize them (our military is constantly criticized and doesnt get away with that shit)

Sure none of this is easy but its not finding atlantis either. It just takes consistent steps instead of constantly doubling down and screaming "everythings fine" when people protest like alot of Americans tend to do.

I also agree with your earlier point about minorities doing better but race relations deteriorating. Its an important line to draw because an accusation of one often leads to us pointing out the other.


Edit: butchered the quote.

 

[Male Idiot]

You do realise a lot of dindus shot by the police ARE in fact criminals that need shooting?

 

[Lefty's Revenge]

You do realise a lot of dindus shot by the police ARE in fact criminals that need shooting?

Its an argument I'm completely unfamiliar with.

 

[Raziel]

Republic Of Georgia Here:

I'd like to say first that i'm not exactly an expert on social structure in my country, i only know a thing or two about race relations among populous because i worked a lot in different low end jobs, and had to interact with many people on a daily basis, anyways here goes nothing:

Firstly we are a very religious country here(about 70-80% are Christians Orthodox s ), Despite this we seem to be very open to members of other races, we have entire areas of towns dedicated to different religions and races, but all of this is just on the surface level, while hate-groups and such are extreme minority, who are mostly residents of mountain villages of Svaneti, Khaxeti and others(they are like hardcore Rednecks, they are very traditional and extremely violent, if you ever visit Georgia, be mindful of that ). The only outright resentment we have, is against Gypsies, Armenians and Indians, Gypsies are the majority of homeless and beggars, while Indians come here in huge droves and live by the dozens. As for Armenians, they're don't really do anything bad, people just hate them because they are mostly very arrogant and rude towards everyone who isn't a member of their race.Blacks are tolerated, but there were occasions when people feared them because they thought they'd get Ebola or some other diseases from them.(That fear craze subsided thought, also i think they are too few to have any impact on anything) As For the Muslims for example, in the past we were mortal enemies, our country was ransacked by most of the neighboring countries,(Turkey, Tatars,Mongols(not neighbors but still count as invaders)Chechen etc.) but surprisingly there's no real hate for them.

Thanks for reading, i'm not really used to posting on forums so sorry if this post is too long or if i have left some details out, if you have any questions ask away.

 

[Lorento]

In Britain our true racists are so thoroughly mocked and derided that the recent Blood and Honour event (A Neo Nazi gathering) actually had 300 people there, 150 of whom were in fact from Poland. EVEN OUR FUCKING NAZIS NEED TO IMPORT FROM EASTERN EUROPE!

Aside from the tensions surrounding Eastern European migrants and the ever present question surrounding Kebabs, I'd say that the UK is probably as peaceful race wise as it has ever been. We had the Mark Duggan shooting a few years back that triggered riots, but most of the rioters were a bunch of white trash who were there to get a new flatscreen TV rather than people who genuinely cared about the drug dealing piece of shit.

On that note, I'd like to show you all what the BNP, our National Party has become. They've been totally fucked by UKIP and this was the image they put into their election poster for the London Mayoral Elections. Truly, this is a party that is the voice and face of the silent majority.

 

[MrLooks]

I wonder how much of the tension is caused by telling people there is tension. If people were born and were never told that race is such a big deal, I bet all races would get on much more harmoniously.