Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Overly Serious]

It's Dragon #147. I had a print copy of it in fact.
View attachment 6116401

You have excellent taste.

Ah, that's her - my ten year old self remembers her well! I think I had her slightly muddled with a lady from the Ravenloft boxed set who was even more graced by the 3.5 pantheon but that's definitely the cover I was thinking of.

 

[Ghostse]

I don't mind this one. "Race" is less fluid than "ancestry," and PF2e has mechanics for things like dwarf/orc and gnome/changelings, plus a bunch of heritage options. Race made more sense in 3.5/pf1.

Except in their press release/interviews about it, they make it clear the switch isn't about fluidity or sense, it is 100% catering to wokies because "race" is bad.

Per @Judge Dredd 's example, I don't really give a fuck if there is a nigger hobbit who is mayor who was just randomly a nigger, or otherwise made sense in the world, or there's some plot line about how being a spear-chucker instead of a rock-slinger is important.
But when you read the Pozzo interviews or info boxes, these decisions are 100% based on pushing wokeshit into their output.

If I make a module where some wood nymph is raped and a dusky skinned man is hung from a dryad's tree and a dwarven banker is burned at the stake, that's all just background noise and unless its shoehorned in not really an issue in and of itself.
But I'm giving interveiws where I say all niggers & sicillians should be lynched because they are all criminals, or about how I use dwarves as stand-ins for Jews, now one needs to think about the content and why I'm pushing these design decisions.
(And wood nymph being raped for not dressing properly is only a problem if I'm not muslim.)

The same reason I don't want to play an unironic Turner Diaries RP, I avoid Pozzo's gay faggot output.

"You can ignore/change/retcon this stuff"
Yeah, but you're still giving money to people who hate you. And when you make changes, you give your players a positive impression of the company's output allowing them space in the hobby.

 

[The Ugly One]

"You can ignore/change/retcon this stuff"

You can play games where you don't have to ignore/change bullshit. Both new and old--it's not like old rule books spontaneously combust.

 

[filthypenguin]

Except in their press release/interviews about it, they make it clear the switch isn't about fluidity or sense, it is 100% catering to wokies because "race" is bad.

I got into PF2e late, I never read any of the press releases for stuff like that. I might be too autistic to understand the problem from either angle, what was the problem with races that they think was fixed by calling it ancestry? They still have mechanical differences.

 

[EleventySeven]

How pozzed is Pazio?

Paizo is called Pozzo for a reason. There's plenty of more subtle stuff like all the focus on the Mwangi expanse and the washing over of its more unsavory elements like cannibals, colonialism by and against the locals, the race-war cult, etc. However, and this is a big however, they aren't anywhere near the same corporate greedy retards run by Hasbro that WoTC are. So the game rules for their editions are published online, for free, and have strong reuse protections for third party creators. If you like their mechanics, ignoring their lore and not giving them money is exceptionally easy to the point that if you want the gay stuff, you generally have to seek out to give them money.

 

[robobobo]

Yeah, Paizo's gone all in on the magical negro worship, literally in this case as the world's premier magic school is chilling out in the jungle, as premier magic schools are wont to do, and they just released a book about their whole problematic Asia-clone, except it's totes not problematic because they hired people of yellow to write it.

 

[Judge Dredd]

You can play games where you don't have to ignore/change bullshit. Both new and old--it's not like old rule books spontaneously combust.

And this is why I don't think wokeshit is really going to be a problem in RPGs as it is with Hollywood or AAA video games. It's trivial to pirate, the barrier of entry is low, and more importantly the DM and players act as a filter no wokeshit gets past. My go to example was an adventure where a fight breaks out at a wedding and "the two grooms" run away. It was trivial to make it "bride and groom". You can't really do that to a game or movie without substantial effort and/or noticeable seams.

However, and this is a big however, they aren't anywhere near the same corporate greedy retards run by Hasbro that WoTC are. So the game rules for their editions are published online, for free, and have strong reuse protections for third party creators.

Motivation is ultimately is the difference. Pozzo are true believers, but also half hearted about it. They might include box text talking about ACAB, but at the end of the day they still made a police focused campaign. They at least have an understanding of the ideology they're trying to push but will occasionally reign it in enough to make something fun occasionally.

WotC meanwhile fires that shit from a canon with all the sincerity of a short sighted money grubbing corporation. It's how they keep fucking up the basics of the propaganda they're pushing. I remember a controversy a while ago (not the current one) about how they talk about the importance of not leaning on racial stereotypes, then had the most stereotypical mexican character imaginable.

 

[Tri-Tachyon'sClown]

Paizo is called Pozzo for a reason. There's plenty of more subtle stuff like all the focus on the Mwangi expanse and the washing over of its more unsavory elements like cannibals, colonialism by and against the locals, the race-war cult, etc. However, and this is a big however, they aren't anywhere near the same corporate greedy retards run by Hasbro that WoTC are. So the game rules for their editions are published online, for free, and have strong reuse protections for third party creators. If you like their mechanics, ignoring their lore and not giving them money is exceptionally easy to the point that if you want the gay stuff, you generally have to seek out to give them money.

Ahhh, Paizo. I remember my friend trying to get me into Pathfinder and Starfinder. He neglected to tell me about...certain things and mostly talked about the good shit. How I lost interest the more I looked into their stuff...

 

[Brain Problems]

Bit of a rant, but I'm mad. I've calmed down now but want to share anyway. Going to change some details for clarity and to avoid power leveling.

My PF2 campaign might be cut short early as I'm down to 2 players, and the possibility of another campaign is looking bleak.

One day, Player 3 had to skip to attend a wedding. Perfectly understandable. Next session he no showed, but there was a reason for it I forget. Third session in a row he no showed again because he was watching Nintendo Direct. This week, no sign of him again. No reason given but I see him on Discord playing Elden Ring. He's still participating in the Discord server so it's not a complete loss yet, but there's clearly a degradation in priorities.

I'm running into problems with my next campaign too. "I'll play anything as long as it's not 5e." "I'll play anything as long as it's 5e." "I'll play if it's a super hero setting." "I'll not play a modern setting." etc.

Sucks man but blackball that guy unless he's your best bud and even then just call him out and say what the fuck dude. I play many many games that I plan in advance and/or have scheduled on the calendar that players should know and respect time commitments for and if someone bails for a retarded reason I am not afraid to cut them out entirely because there are few things I hate more in this world than agreeing to do something and then flaking. Absolutely drives me nuts. Unless you're starving for players it is not worth the mental pain of waiting on someone who puts you below bing bing wahoo announcements.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Ahhh, Paizo. I remember my friend trying to get me into Pathfinder and Starfinder. He neglected to tell me about...certain things and mostly talked about the good shit. How I lost interest the more I looked into their stuff...

What certain things? Do you mean the wokeshit, or was it rules things?

there are few things I hate more in this world than agreeing to do something and then flaking.

Same. It's understandable to a degree, but at some point it has to be taken seriously. There was a meme long ago which said something to the effect of TTRPGs are childrens games and petty distractions because that's how the players treat it, comparing it to boomers making room for poker night or how sportball fans never miss a game.

Unless you're starving for players it is not worth the mental pain of waiting on someone who puts you below bing bing wahoo announcements.

Another DM I know had one of his players joke they should skip a session because the new Elden Ring DLC was out. Part of me thinks he wasn't 100% joking.

Edit: Forgot to mention. At present my PF2 campaign is down to 3 players. Without him, it's down to 2.

 

[Snekposter]

Another DM I know had one of his players joke they should skip a session because the new Elden Ring DLC was out. Part of me thinks he wasn't 100% joking.

Look, if the cartels find the latest Dragon Ball episode more compelling than murdering people, I'm sure you can understand.

 

[Ghostse]

However, and this is a big however, they aren't anywhere near the same corporate greedy retards run by Hasbro that WoTC are.

They are the cleaner end of the turd to be sure.
But I can't decide which is worse:
Hasbro that only sucks nigger cock because their jewish masters tell them to push the message they are still equating work and pandering to niggers/faggots is profitable* and are just parroting what they believe makes them money.

Or Pozzo who are actual true believers in nigger and tranny supremacy.

*To make this as short as possible:
If you make a module fellating niggers, there is a small part of the audience who will avoid it/not buy it/leave, call this group A. There is a small part of the audience who will buy your product because it now alligns with their values or lets them appear to have values they wish to express, call this group B. And there is the majority of the population that won't care (or won't notice) for one reason or another the tacked on nigger toger-tugging and will just buy the product because its good/from a brand they like/popular. Call that group C.

If they believe Group A is smaller/less profitable than Group B, Group B is also larger than the portion of Group C that turns into Group A, corpo logic dictates they continue to do it.

if someone bails for a retarded reason I am not afraid to cut them out entirely because there are few things I hate more in this world than agreeing to do something and then flaking. Absolutely drives me nuts. Unless you're starving for players it is not worth the mental pain of waiting on someone who puts you below bing bing wahoo announcements.

500% agree... for most cases.

I had one player who was a friend and a good guy but flakey. Not just for Elfgames, just in general. there was about a 40% chance he'd say he'd be to any event and...not. But it wasn't personal and you just sort of built it into your calculations of his behavior.
On the Elfgames side, he was also very chill - didn't start rules arguments, you make up some bullshit why he had vanished and was back and he'd roll with it, a good player when he showed up. So you just knew never to make him crucial any plot points.

My main sticking point here is ... if I have player bail for ninetendo direct, an event he can watch the stream of the next fucking day, and the shit that is announced it won't be available for purchase for at least 6 months and maybe over a year so who gives fuck if you learn about it the very second it comes out of Japanese CEO's mouth, that is about equivalent that player telling me to go fuck myself because they don't care about my time or the other players' time. So even if starving for players I'd still give them their walking paper.

Now if I'm just running Paranoia pick-up games or w/e, that's probably fine show up or don't. If I'm running an actual campaign and where your involvement matters..... no. Just no. That's a sign of crucial lack of respect for other people and that is a deep-seated personal values disconnect that isn't ever going to be reconciled to mutual satisfaction.

My PF2 campaign might be cut short early as I'm down to 2 players, and the possibility of another campaign is looking bleak.

One day, Player 3 had to skip to attend a wedding. Perfectly understandable. Next session he no showed, but there was a reason for it I forget. Third session in a row he no showed again because he was watching Nintendo Direct. This week, no sign of him again. No reason given but I see him on Discord playing Elden Ring. He's still participating in the Discord server so it's not a complete loss yet, but there's clearly a degradation in priorities.

I'm running into problems with my next campaign too. "I'll play anything as long as it's not 5e." "I'll play anything as long as it's 5e." "I'll play if it's a super hero setting." "I'll not play a modern setting." etc.

Fire player 3. He is checked out an hoping you notice so you can fire him and he doesn't have to quit.

Per campaigns, I'll reiterate my advice:
Don't run a campaign. Run a one-shot or mega-dungeon.
More people will be willing to invest time and attention on something that seems low commitment. If have something that gets player engagement, expand it into a campaign.

Same. It's understandable to a degree, but at some point it has to be taken seriously. There was a meme long ago which said something to the effect of TTRPGs are childrens games and petty distractions because that's how the players treat it, comparing it to boomers making room for poker night or how sportball fans never miss a game.

Exactly this.

Another DM I know had one of his players joke they should skip a session because the new Elden Ring DLC was out. Part of me thinks he wasn't 100% joking.

Honestly if a player told me they were going to skip for DLC drop, I'd rather they do that than be distracted rubbing their chub thinking about all the "you have died" they are missing out on. Again, and depending on the player, that's at least half-way understandable "I need a week to get rolling around in thorn armor out of my system".
Which is part of the reason why I try to have a monthly "downtime" week once a month in my games, so shit like this can happen without derailing the game.

 

[Judge Dredd]

What do you guys think of YouTuber flovour-of-the-month games? Why do they generate hype? And are they worth the hype?

I remember when the Alien RPG came out and every YouTuber and the comments were going crazy for it. Describing it as one of the best games ever. When I got to looking into it and thought it sounded cool, especially the stress mechanic where you get increased chance to succeed but also greater consequences for fuck ups.

Then about a few months ago, it seemed that Shadowdark was everywhere, even though the game came out a year and a half ago?

And now, it seems like everybody and their dog is obsessed with Mothership, even though a quick google search shows the game to be at least 5 years old. A the flip through reviews immediately show an example character sheet with a they/them lesbian. What's more, the big party piece is the stress mechanic. I don't know if Alien or Mothership did it first (I assume Mothership) but it makes me wonder if everybody suddenly forgot the last year or two of hype for Alien RPG. Same goes for space combat. I don't see anything special that wasn't covered in other games.

Honestly if a player told me they were going to skip for DLC drop, I'd rather they do that than be distracted rubbing their chub thinking about all the "you have died" they are missing out on.

if I have player bail for ninetendo direct, an event he can watch the stream of the next fucking day,

To me, these are basically the same. For the same reason. It's stuff that isn't in any way time sensitive.

Per campaigns, I'll reiterate my advice:
Don't run a campaign. Run a one-shot or mega-dungeon.

Well, it is a megadungeon. I've been running Abomination Vault.

 

[Corn Flakes]

What do you guys think of YouTuber flovour-of-the-month games? Why do they generate hype? And are they worth the hype?

Any hype they generate is entirely due to the content cycle.

Unless they're long-form creators whose every video goes viral, youtubers have to keep releasing new content regularly or the algorithm will bury them. Tabletop games are an environment that's been pretty barren in terms of relevant new content since the end of 3.5e, so anyone trying to play the algo needs to go digging for content wherever they can. Some descend into drama and culture war bullshit, others latch on to every new system that comes out. And once one creator does something, the others then rush to catch up.

 

[Adamska]

A bunch. Changing "race" to "ancestry" is one. And some box text in the Agents of Edgewater police campaign talking about how all cops are bad but not in PathFinder after George Flyod died during the books publishing.

Oh yeah, that reminds me.

Wizards also is having a hard time figuring out what their DnDone shit is going to be like. The 5.5e stuff is getting absolutely derailed by design by community bullshit. Basically it's to the point where the people designing the system dread playtesting, since every single retarded or low IQ complaint has to be resolved, even if it makes the system worse. On top of that, management changed its mind not even 4 months ago and are mining a lot of the rejected crap or original takes from the 2014 build of 5e. Only thing that's sticking is the ancestry gray blob thing from Unearthed Arcana.

There's a reason that my source mentioned some modest napkin plotting for a 6e also is being done, if low on the burner. Since there's some strong suspicions from the crunch creators that 5.5e is gonna flop.

Also yeah, Pathfinder banning slavery was really dumb, since the biggest user was the fucking evil empire of the setting. Who'd have thought that an evil society might treat some people like property or something.

But then these are the same baby brained idiots who listened to a single brainless crybaby whinge about a lich's phylactery, since by using retarded 'being offended for others' games and ignoring the actual source of the word. can be loosely interpreted as Jewish.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

I got into PF2e late, I never read any of the press releases for stuff like that. I might be too autistic to understand the problem from either angle, what was the problem with races that they think was fixed by calling it ancestry? They still have mechanical differences.

It’s like when they start randomly race-swapping people in other forms of media: it’s a near 100% perfect indicator that the company that makes the product that you like has ceased to hire creatives and has begun to hire activists. The term race in fantasy RPGs comes from Tolkien’s reference to the races of men, elves, dwarves and hobbits. It’s a neutral term in context that has been used forever but because the word has real world connotations that lefties are deeply uncomfortable with, it has to go and stat bonuses become floating because they don’t want to “promote bio essentialism.” If you don’t believe me about that, go to rpg.net, make a post about how fixed stat bonuses are fine and not at all racist and see how long you remain unbanned.

In short, these changes are being made due to exogenous reasons and they manifest in recognizable ways. As a counter example, take Battletech? It’s an incredibly diverse setting where you have massive interstellar empires that all got that way by gobbling up ethnic enclaves. But it was built from the ground up to be that way and the rationale is internally originating and consistent. WotC and Paizo are doing this for exogenous reasons, thus making it so that reality intrudes into fantasy when people play these games for a fantasy that intrudes into reality.

 

[filthypenguin]

It’s like when they start randomly race-swapping people in other forms of media: it’s a near 100% perfect indicator that the company that makes the product that you like has ceased to hire creatives and has begun to hire activists. The term race in fantasy RPGs comes from Tolkien’s reference to the races of men, elves, dwarves and hobbits. It’s a neutral term in context that has been used forever but because the word has real world connotations that lefties are deeply uncomfortable with, it has to go and stat bonuses become floating because they don’t want to “promote bio essentialism.” If you don’t believe me about that, go to rpg.net, make a post about how fixed stat bonuses are fine and not at all racist and see how long you remain unbanned.

In short, these changes are being made due to exogenous reasons and they manifest in recognizable ways. As a counter example, take Battletech? It’s an incredibly diverse setting where you have massive interstellar empires that all got that way by gobbling up ethnic enclaves. But it was built from the ground up to be that way and the rationale is internally originating and consistent. WotC and Paizo are doing this for exogenous reasons, thus making it so that reality intrudes into fantasy when people play these games for a fantasy that intrudes into reality.

That's what I'm saying, the races/ancestries still have mechanical differences, and I don't understand how calling them "ancestries" makes them any less "racist" if you think having mechanical differences was racist to begin with.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

That's what I'm saying, the races/ancestries still have mechanical differences, and I don't understand how calling them "ancestries" makes them any less "racist" if you think having mechanical differences was racist to begin with.

You’re hyper focusing on one part of my statement. I’m talking about stat bonuses. Those can now be freely assigned instead of the customary “elves get +2 dexterity, dwarves get +2 constitution, etc.” that got changed to “put stat bonuses where you want them” and it was done for exogenous reasons and everyone can see it.

As to racial abilities not being changed? If you’re expecting these people to be logically consistent, then you’re going to be disappointed every time.

 

[filthypenguin]

You’re hyper focusing on one part of my statement. I’m talking about stat bonuses. Those can now be freely assigned instead of the customary “elves get +2 dexterity, dwarves get +2 constitution, etc.” that got changed to “put stat bonuses where you want them” and it was done for exogenous reasons and everyone can see it.

As to racial abilities not being changed? If you’re expecting these people to be logically consistent, then you’re going to be disappointed every time.

Yeah, but the name change happened when pf2 was released, and the attribute change happened much later. So when they changed to ancestries all the races/ancestries were more mechanically different than they were in 5e or pf1. That's why I had assumed that it was changed to be more broad, since the ancestry component is more granular than it had been before.

Even the attribute change they made later actually makes race based attributes more important if you're minmaxing. It used to be if you wanted three racial boosts, you could use human to get 1/1/1/0/-1/-1 instead of playing the correct race, and now you're forced into using a race that has correct stats. For example, if you want to have three positive stats and want to dump charisma, you have to play either dwarf or android. Dumping int means you're playing Leshy or Lizard.

It seems just as "racist" as it was before. Is it purely just the word "race" that they wanted rid of?

 

[Henri Barbusse]

It seems just as "racist" as it was before. Is it purely just the word "race" that they wanted rid of?

Yes.