Warhammer 40k

I disagree that the Chaos God exist outside the Milky Way. For one thing, the Deep Warp is a thing, and that's a "place" where even the Big Four fear to tread, so the known Warp is at the very least limited in size, if that is even a word that can be used to describe it.

Secondly, the Tyranids are extragalactic, yet they caught the Chaos Gods completely by surprise, and neither side seems to have been aware of each other's existence.

Also, if the Chaos Gods were truly nearly omnipotent and omnipresent, they wouldn't be scared shitless of the God Emperor.
 
I disagree that the Chaos God exist outside the Milky Way. For one thing, the Deep Warp is a thing, and that's a "place" where even the Big Four fear to tread, so the known Warp is at the very least limited in size, if that is even a word that can be used to describe it.

Secondly, the Tyranids are extragalactic, yet they caught the Chaos Gods completely by surprise, and neither side seems to have been aware of each other's existence.

Also, if the Chaos Gods were truly nearly omnipotent and omnipresent, they wouldn't be scared shitless of the God Emperor.
The Chaos Gods can be vastly greater than the Milky Way or mortal comprehension and still be limited, finite beings in and of themselves.

Like other deities of the Lovecraftian sense, they are only called "gods" by analogy because they are unintelligible to most mortals. They're not supposed to be conceptually equivalent to God as understood by the Abrahamic religions.

Plus, their power is derived from the emotions and devotion of living beings. The Milky Way is where a lot that is concentrated, and thus it attracts their attention.
 
Last edited:
The Chaos Gods can be vastly greater than the Milky Way or mortal comprehension and still be limited, finite beings in and of themselves.
Yes, but after thinking a bit more about this, if they truly had a presence outside our galaxy, wouldn't they be able to bring xenos from elsewhere to aid them in their fight here? Also, none of their underlings mention other galaxies.

Granted, Chaos Space Marines aren't exactly in the habit of sharing stories with their cousins, but we've had a lot of material from their perspective, and yet at no point was ever an individual or group seen traveling outside the Milky Way, nor do they ever mention seeing anyone else doing it.

Like other deities of the Lovecraftian sense, they are only called "gods" by analogy because they are unintelligible to most mortals. They're not supposed to be conceptually equivalent to God as understood by the Abrahamic religions.
And that's the crux though, they're not gods in any real sense of the word, they're not even the living embodiment of the concepts they represent, they're just quasi-sentient leeches that have latched onto the well of emotion they are associated with, but that well is local to the Milky Way, hence why I don't think they are present elsewhere.

Other galaxies likely have their own little corner of the Warp, and likely contend with their own version of Warp vermin.
 
I think the concept of universe-sprawling Chaos Gods dilutes the setting. It repeats the same problem multiverses do in that it don't matter what you do if there's an infinite number of other places where similar things happen at the same time. It's much more depressing if Milky Way is a drop of water in the middle of a desert, a small island of sanity amongst an ocean of madness. There's nowhere to run, no other place capable of sustaining sentient life, no "life after death" or second chances, no other Xeno Emperor spitting in the face of the Chaos Gods billions of light years away. If Terra falls then it's the end, full stop. This is the only life you get and you must squeeze as much as you can from it. If you think it's bad now wait until the Emperor loses it all, then you'll see how hard the Warp can fuck with you.

Tyranids work better IMO if you run with that joke theory that 'nids are the physical manifestation of Malal/Malice/[insert copyright friendly name here] who did it both as a way to return and as a last fuck you to everyone. They didn't eat clean some other galaxy before coming here; they came out of nowhere and Silent King doesn't have to know everything.
 
I disagree that the Chaos God exist outside the Milky Way. For one thing, the Deep Warp is a thing, and that's a "place" where even the Big Four fear to tread, so the known Warp is at the very least limited in size, if that is even a word that can be used to describe it.
The Deep Warp is not a thing. Well, it is, but not what people say. The Deep warp is mentioned in a single book, Path of Heaven, and its not a super hyper spooky place in the warp.
People mistake it with the Well of Eternity, and sometimes the Aetheric Void from Age of Sigmar.
Secondly, the Tyranids are extragalactic, yet they caught the Chaos Gods completely by surprise, and neither side seems to have been aware of each other's existence.
They dont, they got chaos marines on surprise, but nothing indicates the Gods arent aware, we dont got their pov after all. We know from Devastation of Baal that the only thing the Hive Mind finds strange on this galaxy is the warp bleeding into real space, indicating warp rifts are rare.
Also, if the Chaos Gods were truly nearly omnipotent and omnipresent, they wouldn't be scared shitless of the God Emperor.
When the 4 blessed Horus he had effective infinite power, and easily beat the Emperor. But that was on real space, where they cant use their power without a vessel.
A tornado releases more energy than a nuke, but a tree can survive it, since the way the energy is released is different from a nuke. They got power, but cant cross the barrier or concentrate.
(...)wouldn't they be able to bring xenos from elsewhere to aid them in their fight here? (...) Granted, Chaos Space Marines aren't exactly in the habit of sharing stories with their cousins, but we've had a lot of material from their perspective, and yet at no point was ever an individual or group seen traveling outside the Milky Way, nor do they ever mention seeing anyone else doing it.
Not at all, in fact we got a Chaos Marine talking about his trip to the void beyond the galaxy in Lords of Silence.
Besides, GW barely talks about xenos, as far we know, they do, but those arent space marines or primarchs, so they will get no content on a chaos army.
Older lore stated that Chaos was multiverse, this is how WHF could get crossovers with 40k.

Newer lore doesn't know and just avoids making a statement, everything is canon.
On the oposite, newer lore is even more explicit, all the out of universe comments by White Dwarf on how daemons and the warp are the same, how Slaanesh was indeed created by the eldar and in fantasy it got interest on the elfs because of it, came from 2017 onwards.
"Everything is canon, not everything is true" is a quote that the fans dont got, Laurie said when he was the IP manager that it just mean the lore is maleable and so new things take precedent, like how on Bungie times officially the lore from the Halo games is more important than the books, so if new information comes (like the Halo Reach game) it takes precedent (like all things that contradict Fall of Reach)

Now, if you ask me, I dont like it, and neither like the idea GW consistently pushed since 1993 that if the Emperor dies, the entire universe dies with him. By making chaos a force with infinite realities to feed, they are just invencible, the Necrons and Tyranids wont outlive the universe, but Chaos will a trillion times over.
I personally like the idea from War of the Krork, where chaos is multiversal, but not the gods. Chaos is a natural process of any universe with a warp, there may be another god of war just like Khorne, but its not Khrone, the same way a storm on Earth and Neptune arent the same.
 
Last edited:
If there's just one word I wish I could smite out of existence from the English language, it's the freaking "multiverse".
I directly hold comic book retards responsible for this writing malaise.
And Michael Moorcock for largely introducing the concept with Elric and the Eternal Champions.

ETA: though like @Male Idiot said below, Moorcock and his contemporaries meant it as crossovers between completely different worlds, not infinite permutations of the same world.
 
Last edited:
If there's just one word I wish I could smite out of existence from the English language, it's the freaking "multiverse".
I directly hold comic book retards responsible for this writing malaise.

The word wasn't used in the actual old lore, and it wasn't meant in the Marvel modern way of basically the same universe but everything is different slightly or one thing is very different.

It was meant as other totally different universes like WHF. Not that there are 6 million Imperium variants.

It wasn't ever the marvel shit where we would get HH but Ferrus Manus didn't die or that its HH but marines are armed with hellguns not bolters etc. But GW may go there, we all know GW.

I liked the Emperor ends the universe and Chaos can't be beaten arc.
It was grimdark, more horror than "infinite bugs". It was a more metaphysical treat.
 
GW also took Chaos from Moorcock lol. But really, Warhammer in general is a pretty interesting case when it got very few original bones but the end result is somewhat unique.

But really, I just dont find it good because it makes the Emperor the main character of the universe, nothing else really matters as long he lives. Any "end scenario" for other factions bar maybe the Eldar and Tau ends the same: if they destroy the Imperium and the Throne fails, everyone dies.

However, I cant just say "its not canon" or "its propaganda", we know Chaos can destroy reality and survives it, that was what happened to Fantasy, when the Oak of Ages died, all of time and space went together besides Mallus' core and Sigmar.
 
GW also took Chaos from Moorcock lol.
Even stole the eight-pointed star he created. Though he also said something to the effect of "I don't mind if people rip off my work, because that means I made something good."
But really, I just dont find it good because it makes the Emperor the main character of the universe, nothing else really matters as long he lives.
Luetin09 has pointed out in several of his video essays that much of what we're presented in the setting is filtered through Imperial reports and propaganda. "Everything is canon, but not everything is true" is just another way of saying "nobody in the setting is a 100% reliable narrator."

That may seem like a cop-out, but you could also think of it like a legal trial, in which the characters are witnesses and lawyers while the audience is the jury. Everything said by the characters is on record (canon), but it's up to the jury to separate the truth from the bullshit.
 
But really, I just dont find it good because it makes the Emperor the main character of the universe, nothing else really matters as long he lives. Any "end scenario" for other factions bar maybe the Eldar and Tau ends the same: if they destroy the Imperium and the Throne fails, everyone dies.
Not necessarily, Tyranid win will weaken Chaos significantly since can't really have emotions when humanity is eaten. Ditto Necron if they kill enough of humanity then the threat of Chaos is greatly diminished.

Really the weird thing is how Chaos doesn't cooperate with the Imperium against the 'Nids considering it's the greatest threat to them.
 
With Chaos being eternal and omnipresent, one galaxy less and one universe less wouldn't really matter that much. It used to be that the Chaos gods just did their shenanigans for the same reason as the Great Old like Nyarlathotep ones: They were bored and playing with ants. The end result didn't matter. They find a new anthill if it goes belly up or they get bored.
Chaos spawn was them dicking around with their toys. Like with WHF. It went belly up and they moved on.

This wouldn't make sense if they depended on just humanity in just one galaxy to exist. The writers trying to center Chaos on humanity just forgot about nids and necrons. Xenos are just a sideshow after all, and writing is hard ok? Gw doesn't pay for consistency.

The Emperor is the main character. The stories we see are just the sidekicks. I am fine with that.
 
Luetin09 has pointed out in several of his video essays that much of what we're presented in the setting is filtered through Imperial reports and propaganda. "Everything is canon, but not everything is true" is just another way of saying "nobody in the setting is a 100% reliable narrator."
As I said, that's a fan interpretation, the IP manager said it just mean the Canon is maleable to new information. The comment on the Universe dying with the Emperor is made by the 3rd person omniscient narrator.


Not necessarily, Tyranid win will weaken Chaos significantly since can't really have emotions when humanity is eaten. Ditto Necron if they kill enough of humanity then the threat of Chaos is greatly diminished.
Chaos is self sustained as said by Natasé and confirmed by out of universe comments. At best, even if you cut the ties of the warp with the materium, they only lose one of their playground, and Rotigus say that the gods are getting bored of this one.


The writers trying to center Chaos on humanity just forgot about nids and necrons. Xenos are just a sideshow after all, and writing is hard ok? Gw doesn't pay for consistency.
ADB said outright that the setting is about Imperium vs chaos and the rest is secondary, and that was before he became IP manager (which explains the female custodes, he said his original bid for it was rejected by the ip manager in 2017)
 
Luetin09 has pointed out in several of his video essays that much of what we're presented in the setting is filtered through Imperial reports and propaganda. "Everything is canon, but not everything is true" is just another way of saying "nobody in the setting is a 100% reliable narrator."
This is an annoying cop-out with writing to say that everything is unreliable, nothing can be taken as fact. It means you basically don't have a story at all. It's your universe, you decide what happens for whatever reason you want, yet you want me to believe that actually everything is a lie. Then how about you tell me what actually happened? Even if the lore if written from an Imperium perspective it's done so sincerely that if we were dealing with an unreliable narrator it does nothing for the story. There are no hints the reader can follow to try and piece together the lies and the truth. All it does is try to hand wave bad writing. "No guys my books isn't just full of inconsistent plots, it's an unreliable narrator!" It's the same thing as "It's not a bug, it's a feature."
With Chaos being eternal and omnipresent, one galaxy less and one universe less wouldn't really matter that much. It used to be that the Chaos gods just did their shenanigans for the same reason as the Great Old like Nyarlathotep ones: They were bored and playing with ants. The end result didn't matter. They find a new anthill if it goes belly up or they get bored.
Chaos spawn was them dicking around with their toys. Like with WHF. It went belly up and they moved on.

This wouldn't make sense if they depended on just humanity in just one galaxy to exist. The writers trying to center Chaos on humanity just forgot about nids and necrons. Xenos are just a sideshow after all, and writing is hard ok? Gw doesn't pay for consistency.
This is why I think the question matters in the context of the setting. I'm not saying we need to know the stories of other galaxies, or the whole universe. The details aren't important. But GW does need to at least explain are we the really the last galaxy and it's all or nothing? Or why can't we leave this shit hole and start again somewhere else? Surely humanity at the height of it's power, where we were basically Gods, were capable of sending colonies out to neighboring galaxies. Why didn't they?
 
Surely humanity at the height of it's power, where we were basically Gods, were capable of sending colonies out to neighboring galaxies. Why didn't they?
Maybe they did. Admiral ursus in M35 did found humans on planets outside the galaxy, and the Imperium had multiple unsuccessful missions to the Magellanic Clouds.

But it doesn't matter, the galaxy got 400 billion stars as stated all the way back in 1987, there isn't a shortage of places to go
 
  • Thunk-Provoking
Reactions: Male Idiot
This is an annoying cop-out with writing to say that everything is unreliable, nothing can be taken as fact.
True, but that's not what I'm saying. It's not "everyone's either always lying or delusional."

I'm saying that we, the audience, don't always get the full picture unless it comes directly from Word of God. Characters and factions have their own biases, and may omit, ignore, or be oblivious to certain information.

That doesn't necessarily mean what they see (and the narrator presents to the audience) is outright bullshit, just that it's an imperfect view.

And this concept isn't unique to Warhammer by any means.
 
ADB said outright
ABD is a massive Chaos TDS retard so besides femstodes we can expect the Emperor to have been secretly Trrrrrumpf all along...
Rotigus say that the gods are getting bored of this one.
Guilliman did make everything boring and GW made boring Primaris so I can't blame the sweaty neckbeard.
Universe dying with the Emperor is made by the 3rd person omniscient narrator.
It was explained by the Webway project beneath the Palace. It is like a seam, if it is undone the rest follows. Only Emprah holds it together. This is like the Cadian pylons holding back the Eye just much bigger. This also makes this galaxy the universe's Cadia, just bigger.

Newcrons arrived after this fact was established, so the Silent King gifting the Emperor a gigantic pylon to help just wasn't considered as back then crons were just kill all life robots. He could call it the British Broadcast Channel Obelisk and put it where Obama's used to be! Bet that would make Klumpf mad, right ADB? Will owning the Chuds or Chaos fanboyism win out in his little mind?

Older stuff said the nids ate 12 or 13 galaxies. Or at least the Mechanicus thinks they got genes from at least that many galaxies.
This is an annoying cop-out with writing to say that everything is unreliable, nothing can be taken as fact. It means you basically don't have a story at all.
It is, and it is the same rot of incompetence, not caring and general -I am too smart for rules- attitude that art creatives love.
Didn't turn out well for Star Wars or Star Trek, won't turn out well for 40k.

Same for constant retcons. Why get invested if it all gets wiped clean every 5 to 10 years?
 
Back